# 180gallon Community/Planted Tank



## kacairns

Well a couple of weeks ago I decided I would buy a 180gallon drilled tank from King Ed Pet Centre and will be picking it up soon. Last Saturday I started to work on getting the room ready that it will be going in, cleaning it out, applying a couple of coats of kitchen/bath paint and of course as soon as I was done that I immediately started building my custom stand for it. Stand is made out of 3/4 good 2 side oak, doweled and stapled with a Cherry stain and 2-4 coats of semi gloss clear coat depending on what part of the cabinet it is.

I have a good idea what I'll be stocking the tank with, not set in stone yet, but I plan to have the tank up and running for 2-3 months with just plants and maybe a small school of neon tetra to begin with while I fine tune everything.

My son helping to put in the dowels for the dry fit of the cabinet pieces










Clear coating the cabinet pieces after staining










My two little helpers they weighed down the top as I screwed it down to the base










Due to where the fish tank will be located in the house I had to make the cabinet so it was multiple pieces. Left and right sides where shelving can be installed are separate boxes and I've used 1"x1" corner brackets to tie the kick plate, the top support and the counter top all down to each other. All hidden unless you get on your back and lay down inside the cabinet. If I need to in the future move the stand all I have to do is remove a few screws. The centre shelf is where I'll be placing the sump and can easily be removed as well. I still plan to put doors on at least the centre of the cabinet to hide the sump and possibly on the sides where the shelving are but all depends what I have left for material once canopy is made and sump doors are done.


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## macframalama

nice work so far, looking forward to this tank journal it looks like you know your wood work,


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## charles

instead of neon, try cardinals, much stronger fish and costs about the same.


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## kacairns

Thanks charles

I was figuring on having 50 or so cardinal as part of the final inhabitants of the tank. 

Maybe I will try a fishless cycle save some money and not risk harming the fish


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## charles

do a fishless with store bought anmonia. Works well. 

I have worked and setup a tank like yours but with a little different biotope. Instead of fully planted (I have to service it, so I don't want to spend hours trimming plants), we do a river bank look with rocks and branches and a big long trunk of wood across. 

For the fish, we have 200 cardinals, 100 rummynose, 100 pencil, 200 hatchet, 100 cory, a few rams here and there, a few plecos, and 2 angels. The angels are there to keep the small tetra to school tight together. It looks very neat when you see a ball of cardinals move around in two groups whenever the big angels are coming by.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail

Why not get a Friend to Seed your Tank for you? I just helped a Friend of mine seed His 120 Gal. Tank and on First Day threw a Doz. Guppies in,3 weeks later Water Parameters are near perfect and the Guppies have been breeding. I just put some of my already seeded filter media (Whisper Filter Pads) into 2 of His Aquaclears and squeezed some of the pads into the Water Column,it's a great way to get a Tank started,I've done it many times with nothing but great results.


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## kacairns

That is another option I was considering, although a fishless cycle will be a learning experience to so I might go that route. The wife is due end of October so theres no rush for me getting fish into the tank, and I plan let the plants grow out, do modifications and so on for first few months to get everything ironed out. Then I can turn the 29gallon tank we have into a hospital/quarantine tank.

I will probably be adding co2 and possibly a either a drip or a dosing pump for ferts. I think I'll probably go with a drip system as I can hide it in the canopy and would be cheaper as well


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## kacairns

Tank is in the room now plus sump. Now I have to see how much energy I have to do the plumbing as moving that sucker took almost everything I had with the corners I had to go around, standing it up on edge to get it through the door into the room and so on... Oh well minor drywalll repairs and painting to be done at least I didn't have to take out studs/door jambs like I thought I might!


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## Diztrbd1

lol .....minor drywalll repairs. Nice to see ya finally got it Kevin...look forward to the updates. The stand looks great. Very envious, wish I could fit that size tank in my place


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## Adz1

Looks awesome so far....


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## kacairns

Well the wife decided to have her water break at 33 weeks into the pregnancy so I haven't had much time to finish the setup, she gave birth on Sunday morning to a beautiful little alien, errrr daughter at 33 weeks 5 days weighing 4 pounds 2 ounces.

I managed to get a few hours of work in today before the migraine came on so thought I'd update this.

Start of the lighting into the canopy, yes I know part of it isn't stained! I ran out of stain for that last little bit . When done it will be running 3 rows of white, 2 rows of blue and 2 rows of red all setup to different timing









I decided to make life easier and setup a 44gallon trash can to age water, I've put a sump in the bottom of it and hard plumbed it. I've set it up so that the inlet hose can be placed in the tank to remove water from the tank, or left in the bucket to remove water from the bucket. Outlet has a 2way splitter on it one with a 20ft hose and other with a 6ft hose. 20ft hose can be run to sink to drain for water change from tank and can hookup to faucet at sink to refill the bucket. Other side of the splitter has a 6ft hose that can just be run into the tank when refilling from the pre-aged water in the bucket. I siliconed the sump the bottom of the bucket and placed a 3/4 pvc frame inside the bucket to act as a brace for the sump which is zap strapped to it and as well support a sheet of egg crate so hoses can be neatly rolled up when done and stored in the bucket top out of the water.


















Not sure when I'll get around to actually getting around to aquascaping as it could be upwards of a month before the baby is home from the hospital but I'll keep updating as I do things =)


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## bcorchidguy

Looks awesome, really a nice job on the stand and great idea's all around.

Congrats on the baby and all the best in being a dad, it's awesome

Douglas


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## kacairns

This is third child, I've had no time because I'm playing Mr. Mom right now on top of working 40+ hours a week... wearing thing and I'm coming down with a cold now that kids are in school


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## bcorchidguy

Yup it's awesome, bet you wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.. except maybe a break... but hey, being a dad's the bomb right???

Douglas


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## 2wheelsx2

Nice start. Too bad I didn't see this thread earlier. If you're going to fully plant this tank and stock it lightly, fishless cycle is a waste of time as the plants are a net consumer of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and will consume those products in that order. So when you add the ammonia in, the plants will just take it up. Just put the water in and scape it and plant it with lots of plants, make sure temp, pH is stable and there is no chlorine and add the fish.

Here's an article that explains why this works. Cycling a Planted Tank | Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks


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## kacairns

Just through on the doors and put in the diy spray bar that I made I have a couple of holes drilled pointing to back of tank and most pointing towards front. I made it to replace the megaflow twin flow that came in the kit as I didn't like being limited to the bends I could make using it. I've linked both of the inlets in the tank and I drilled out using 3/16 bit to create same area that the original megalflow twin flow had. I noticed with the extra 3 feet of 3/4 pipe that was now in the tank that the pressure going through the pipe wasn't as great as it needed to be and also the pumps in the sump were almost sucking it dry and sending air up the tube from time to time. Easily solution was increase the amount of water in the sump. I slowly increased the amount of water in the sump until I hit the point where the pumps would run without sending air up the pipe from time to time and then turned everything off and let the sump fill with what was in the overflow and marked the level on the sump. This solved the pressure problem as well which was caused by not enough water being sent up from the sump from "running dry".

Doors were all cut from same piece of oak so the grain runs from one door to the next... sure cost me a extra $55 for the sheet but doing it right for the best look is what matters to me =)









I can change the angle of the pipes as I only glued together certain parts and others are just pressure fit. This will allow me to put the holes fully in the water to prevent too much surface movement for future co2 addition.


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## kacairns

2wheelsx2 said:


> Nice start. Too bad I didn't see this thread earlier. If you're going to fully plant this tank and stock it lightly, fishless cycle is a waste of time as the plants are a net consumer of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and will consume those products in that order. So when you add the ammonia in, the plants will just take it up. Just put the water in and scape it and plant it with lots of plants, make sure temp, pH is stable and there is no chlorine and add the fish.
> 
> Here's an article that explains why this works. Cycling a Planted Tank | Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks


I have since decided not to do a fishless cycle, by the time I get around to having this fully setup I don't want it not to be stocked for any longer then needed! Time to go and read, and educate myself more. Thanks =)


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## jbyoung00008

Congrats on the new baby. They sure do look like Aliens when they are born. LOL. Especially when the are pre mature. 

Your tank setup looks great. Cant wait to see how it turns out. I always enjoy watching the DIY builds. Looks like lots of work but Im sure the pay off in the end is well worth it.


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## 2wheelsx2

kacairns said:


> Doors were all cut from same piece of oak so the grain runs from one door to the next... sure cost me a extra $55 for the sheet but doing it right for the best look is what matters to me =)


It's worth the extra if it's going to be a piece of furniture and not just a prop for the tank. We did our kitchen cabinets this way and everyone notices how the panels run continously across with aligned grained. A very nice look. I very nice setup. May I ask why you opted not to create a "lip" on the top of the stand to cover up the frame of the tank?


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## kacairns

2wheelsx2 said:


> It's worth the extra if it's going to be a piece of furniture and not just a prop for the tank. We did our kitchen cabinets this way and everyone notices how the panels run continously across with aligned grained. A very nice look. I very nice setup. May I ask why you opted not to create a "lip" on the top of the stand to cover up the frame of the tank?


Well it hadn't crossed my mind really to trim out the frame of the tank on the bottom when I was designing it. To me it actually looks fine the way it is. I had considered just getting some oak battens or something similar and using a couple of spots of silicone to hold it onto the frame and still might do so. On a side note if I had trimmed the cabinet prior to placing the tank I'd be cursing myself anyways. With the tank being only accessible on the front and 1 side it is rather awkward trying to move a 180gallon tank into place. It is bottom drilled and took 3 of us lift it back up and drop it down in place due to the other end being inaccessible.


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## 2wheelsx2

I see. I don't have the trim on my 125, as I didn't know better when I got back into the hobby, but my tank and stand are both black so it doesn't stand out. I never hoisted the tank into place on the stand. Rather, I left the stand in the middle of the room and put the tank on it and then ran all the electrical and plumbing (canister filters) behind and then just slid the whole thing into place and filled it. You don't have as much room in that space though, since my tank is in the playroom/office in the basement.


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## kacairns

Well had a little time today to work the canopy, didn't get my connector cords for the sunblaster t5ho, waiting on those so I can throw the canopy on and test the lighting/setup the timing.

I thought about how hot the canopy will get with all the lighting running in it, so I've drilled a couple of air intake holes in the back of it, which will also serve as entry points for the power cords. I also routed out 3 holes in the top of the canopy that will hold 3 antec smartcool 120mm fans. They are thermally controlled so as the canopy gets hotter the fans automatically spin faster. I was going to just use some left over case fans I had, but I haven't cheaped out much now why not spend a extra $60 and go the extra mile.... Will be spliced together using speaker wire and a old 12v power adapter from a phone.

















I've also finally figured out what media I will run in the marineland sump and set it all up. I've purchased and cut down Lifegard Aquatics Aquamesh Filter Material (Grey) to fit the tray, 1 piece was able to be cut into 5 so I'll be able to switch out and do deep cleans on the old ones if ever required rather then just a quick rinse. That will be first stage, 2nd stage I've purchased SeaChem Purigen and placed it in "The Bag" to cover the bottom of the 2nd tray. 3rd tray is Bio-chem Stars on one side and Pot Scrubbers on the other. Would I purchase the same sump again? No, if you've got the ability to make your own sump, it is definitely the better way to to go. Plus much cheaper! I only bought it for 1) looks, 2) I knew baby was coming so wanted 1 less thing to do to get it all setup.... and baby decided to come early so my #2 is pointless!

















I also added a reefkeeper lite controller and 2 power bars to the system. This little gadget is amazing with all its settings. To do what I wanted with lights and all the other plugs I need I'd have to spend $100 on power bars. I paid just over double for this controller and the extra power bar from J&L and would highly recommend it










Should have connector cords by mid-late week I hope for the lighting so I can free the table in the living room to start planning the aquascape and maybe do a diy background/decorations. Kids are excited, I just wish I had more time right now!

I'm also planning on adding co2 using paintball canister and a drip system for ei dosing which I'm just going over in my head right now. It looks like I should be able to do a 20oz paintball canister co2 with solenoid for about $150 when all said and done.


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## 2wheelsx2

You're going to be paying a lot to get those paintball canisters filled, to dose a 180 gallon with CO2. I run a 20 lb tank in my 125 gallon LED lit, low light setup and it lasts me a year. When I ran higher light it used to last me 6 months. You sure you want to be filling paintball canisters every 2 or 3 weeks?


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## kacairns

Lack of room for a 20lb tank right now. I have a bunch of things I need to sell such as left over laminate and so on that are taking up precious space in the room. In fact the trash can is sitting on some plywood that is on top of some of that laminate! Once that stuff is all gone I'll have another 3ft x 4ft area of space in the room to do what I want. I do plan converting over to a larger tank when I can, and selling the laminate and other stuff would of course give me the funds to do so =)

Just a quick question, what do you have your bubble count at on your 125gallon?


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## 2wheelsx2

kacairns said:


> Just a quick question, what do you have your bubble count at on your 125gallon?


I have never run a separate bubble counter, so I can only guess. I also inject at 2 points: 1 is an UP atomizer and another is a Rhinox diffuser. On the diffuser side, I'm doing maybe 1 bps, so I'm guessing I'm putting about the same amount in the atomizer. I ran a drop checker for a long time but when I when low light I just cranked the injection rate way back. I have a bit of bba here and there so my injection rate is a bit on the low side, but I'm happy with it as I have quite a few plecos over 7" in there and I don't want to choke them out.


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## kacairns

Few hours more of work done, getting closer to going live. Lighting is now all setup and programmed in the Reefkeeper Lite controller. Lighting is Giesemann Pure Actinic and AquaFlora plus the 6400k white that come with the sunblaster kits.

I've currently set the Actinic to come on at 8am - 10am, AquaFlora from 9:30am - 6:30pm with the 6400k going on from 11:30am - 4:30pm and Actinic once again from 6pm - 8pm. I'm sure I'll be adjusting to less exposure time once system and plants are all up and running, guess it will be trial and error =)


























Initial planning of rock and stump, the beautiful stump was purchased from bluebarry awhile back and all the rock came from IPU


















Finally my attempt to do a 3D great stuff piece for the tank... first 2 cans worked wonderful and expanded identically, third expanded 5x what the first two did so didn't come out as I'd hoped! Painted with Krylon Fusion Camo, Khaki, Olive and Brown. I've grooved it out so I can plant on the top shelf I created and in the lower bowl area. This was created to hide the wires running down the back of the tank from the canopy










Just waiting on solenoid to arrive and then I'll be able to setup my co2 setup and just trying to figure out what I'm going to use for a storage system for my fert mixtures for my drip system. As soon as those two things happen I'll be ready to get the plants!


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## IceBlue

You've got quite the set upgoing here. Can't wait to see it with water. Two Thumbs Up.:bigsmile:


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## IceBlue

Oh and congratulations on the birth of your child.


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## Diztrbd1

Looking great Kevin! Keep the updates coming! Very envious right now lol


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## kacairns

Thanks IceBlue. Just to make John more envious, I couldn't resist finally getting something in it. I got sick of waiting for everything to be "near perfect"!.

The Great Stuff project was a great disaster! I looked wonderful with HC 'Cuba' surrounding Alternanthera Reineckii 'Purple' on the top shelf and Echinodorus Tenellus planted behind it on the lower bowl area but even with over 10 pounds of gravel on top of the display, gravel over top of the edges of it leaving only top portions of the build ups showing, edges of rocks sitting on top of the eggcrate core of it and silicone to the bottom of the tank, it still wanted to float!

I quickly had to remove it with 1/4 of the tank full of water and threw in the 2nd stump I had that I didn't plan on using so didn't pre-soak it... of course its floating in the tank now but when it decides to sink, it'll fill the void left, or help fill. I must now get another bag of eco-complete black to get more then a 1/2" of coverage in that area!

Rocks are all from IPU, stumps I bought from Bluebarry awhile back and plants are from King Ed Pets, which I picked up this morning. $100 on aquaflora plants, they look wonderful coming out of the containers but stem plants lack stems for planting which made things a little harder. I plan on letting everything grow in especially the drawf hair grass as to cover bottom of a 180gallon would be expensive off the bat!


















































I got sick of dividing the plants! Especially the dward hair grass and Echinodorus tenellus! Sure you can tell by clumps of it here and there at some points.

The failed great disaster piece









Happy Thanks Giving everyone!


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## kacairns

Pure Actinic lighting combined with AquaFlora Lighting "evening transition" on for 30 minutes









Pure Actinic "night time" on for 1 and a half hours, then lights out


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## kacairns

Plant growth is amazing with co2 and dosing with seachem products for the moment. I will be changing to drip system as soon as I get my digital scale, hopefully this week. The drip system will be setup using IV bags to hold 2 weeks worth of each mixture of ferts.

Had a nice power outage today while I was at work, side affect was the very slight green tint to the tank (green water algae) has now become a very dense green tint. I went out and purchased a UV sterilizer from King Ed's today and set it up a couple of hours ago. I'm still deciding whether I want to run the UV all the time or just temporarily until the tank fully cycles, I have the co2 levels stable throughout the night not just the day and have proper fert dosing going on.

Alternanthera reineckii 'Purple' (lilacina) is growing really lush and the purple colour is beautiful especially under the a actinic lighting
Anubias seems like its slowly starting to adjust since the move from the 29gallon tank, little bit of BBA on it, but the oto's seem to be keeping it in check for the moment.
Echinodorus Red Flame and Ozelot seem to be growing good
Echinodorus tenellus, I just finally noticed new growth, it looks as if the new growth is coming in 2-3" away from some of the snippets put in
Dwarf Hair grass, on top it appears as if nothing is happening, below the surface is a different story! piece new the glass shows the roots have traveled inches away from the plantings and as of tonight through the green water I can just see little new bits coming up through the substrate
Hygrophila difformis transfered from the old 29gallon tank, the growth of this is amazing with the co2. I had a stem sitting in the old tank with just excel and other seachem dosing for 2 months, showed no sign of dying but also no sign of new life was just a 4" stem. I looked the other day and from the top of the stem there is 2 little leaves starting to develop.
Ludwigia repens 'Rubin', some transfer from the old tank, some from aquaflora... growth is just amazing and its finally almost red again! Aerial roots everywhere made lots of work to be done to make it pretty again on the last water change.

Once everything returns to normal I'll post some newer pictures. I also have a custom cement piece that I'm just bleeding the PH from right now to replace my great stuff disaster, hopefully the dwarf hair grass doesn't fill in its spot in the tank before its ready to go in!


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## kacairns

After 2 days of UV light the green water has now almost completely returned to crystal clear water! I'm thinking of keeping the UV sterilization going permanently but wondering what others opinions would be.

Also custom cement piece is being cured in water now. 2 days of air drying after forming and now on the third day of water curing. Piece was made using hydraulic cement with pvc frame, pictures to come soon. I used 40 pounds of hydraulic cement and am surprised so far the results for PH

PH levels during water curing
Day 1 over 9.0 water changed after reading
Day 2 over 9.0 water changed after reading
Day 3 8.0 - 8.5 water changed after reading

I haven't etched the concrete yet using muriatic acid and not sure if I'm going to if the PH levels are dropping as they have. I may do it though, just to "roughen" up the surface so I can spray it with krylon to make it look more then just grey. I've read a few people stating that they've used krylon fusion perfectly fine directly on concrete.


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## kacairns

Made a forming box lined with a plastic bag for making my concrete design, 2 bags of playsand moistened to allow sharping in sand so when concrete is poured/lumped in it will roughly take the shape in the sand.

Here I am making the back piece for the custom concrete decoration










This is the "base" of the decoration










As this is the first time using concrete to make a decoration, its been a learning experience and of course I'd do many things different, including hollowing out things to use less concrete, using wire brush to poke holes into the curing concrete and so on to give it more of a pitted design. I've also read many other forum posts on different sites giving me ideas of things I can do if I do in fact have future experiments


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## kacairns

Well water is back to 100% crystal clear. As mentioned before plants have started to grow nicely, still waiting on my gram scale I picked up off ebay so still dosing with seachem products.

Straight on shot can see roots of hair grass in substrate at glass. Only thing I'm not liking is the Echinodorus tenellus the way it off shoots so far is above substrate and i can predict it crawling over the hair grass if not trimmed constantly so might look at removing it. Some areas is has shoots that are 6 inches away from the main planting already









Ludwigia repens 'Rubin', first picture are aquaflora bundle that was 1.5" out of container, 2nd was transfer from the 29gallon Reds are coming out nicely on them now

















Female Bettas, 3 in total they like to all swim together all the time, the one that is more of a rusty red one I haven't got a good shot of yet as it camera shy

























Echinodorus red flame









Echinodorus Ozelot









Hygrophila difformis, the little stem to the left with the new green to it was the one without growth for months in my 29gallon tank, good to see it survived and is growing!









Alternanthera reineckii 'Purple' (lilacina)


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## dssv

Tank is coming along great. love reading about the updates . Great job on the stand.


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## kacairns

Thanks, John (Diztrbd1) said I should start making custom stands after seeing it in person, although I'm not sure when I'd find time with my schedule right now to do such a venture but its possible =)


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## 2wheelsx2

In my experience, E. tenellus cannot coexist with DHG unless they are partitioned. The E. tenellus with grow roots into everything and choke out all your other carpet plants. I had a 20 gallon with both and eventually I had an E. tenellus carpet with a few springs of DHG left and that was about it.


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## kacairns

Thanks 2wheelsx2, you have confirmed what I thought will happen and I don't want that. I had originally planned for the E. tenellus to be inside of the great stuff disaster so separated from the DHG. Unfortunately that experiment failed and instead of wasting $10 worth of it I decided I'd plant it in the right hand side. I guess I'll be doing a unplanned water change tomorrow so I can remove it

On another note, received the gram scale now to mix ferts and figure out drip speed to make 500ml last for 2 weeks =)


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## jobber

Nicely done. What type of fish are you planning to stock the tank with? 
The first type of fish coming to my mind would be Rainbowfish ;D


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## kacairns

I've currently have about 32 Rummynose Tetra in there, 3 silvertip tetra, 4 glowlight tetra, 4 cardinal tetra, 3 female betta, small pleco, 8 otocinlus.

Future plans include 50-75 cardinal tetra and I had been thinking of some dwarf neon rainbow or german blue ram and ultimate goal is to have adult discus in there as well. If I ever get to having the adult discus in this tank I"ll probably remove the rummynose tetra and either increase amount of german blue ram or cardinal tetra.


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## kacairns

Well did a water change on Saturday and removed all of the Echinodorus tenellus, some of its off shoots had reached lengths of 8" from the main plantings in under 3 weeks! BBA on the anubias nana seems to have been eaten off of the smaller leaf and the 2 larger leaves seem as if it isn't getting worse. I'll do some excel spot treatment to those leaves to help rid it and return them to looking normal.

I had also noticed Sunday green algae starting to appear on some of the ledges or rocks as well as the spray bar in the tank, I've tested water and Fe seems to be non-existent so started dosing again with seachem Iron and nitrate are sitting below 5ppm. As I've just started dosing with new dry ferts premixed I'll give it a week and see how things balance out and make changes based on what I see happening. I had noticed also edges of hygrophila difformis on the new growth was brown, based on my searches suggests insufficient co2. My co2 indicator is green when I look at it when lights are on so I assume it may be at night or early in the lights on period where I might be having the problem. I've changed the co2 to startup a hour before lights on and turn off at lights out and slightly increased the bubble rate. I also changed the lighting schedule to lessen the lighting in the tank to help with the new algae problems pop up.

New lighting schedule

11am - 1pm Blue Actinic lighting
12pm - 7:30pm Flora lighting
1:30pm - 5pm daytime lighting
7pm - 9pm Actinic lighting

So I've gone from a total of 12 hours previously down to 10 hours of lighting with first hour and last hour and a half being actinic only. Hopefully the changes I've made help stabilize things a little and just require minor adjustments from here on out =)


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## 2wheelsx2

kacairns said:


> I had also noticed Sunday green algae starting to appear on some of the ledges or rocks as well as the spray bar in the tank, I've tested water and Fe seems to be non-existent so started dosing again with seachem Iron and nitrate are sitting below 5ppm. As I've just started dosing with new dry ferts premixed I'll give it a week and see how things balance out and make changes based on what I see happening. I had noticed also edges of hygrophila difformis on the new growth was brown, based on my searches suggests insufficient co2. My co2 indicator is green when I look at it when lights are on so I assume it may be at night or early in the lights on period where I might be having the problem. I've changed the co2 to startup a hour before lights on and turn off at lights out and slightly increased the bubble rate. I also changed the lighting schedule to lessen the lighting in the tank to help with the new algae problems pop up.
> 
> New lighting schedule
> 
> 11am - 1pm Blue Actinic lighting
> 12pm - 7:30pm Flora lighting
> 1:30pm - 5pm daytime lighting
> 7pm - 9pm Actinic lighting
> 
> So I've gone from a total of 12 hours previously down to 10 hours of lighting with first hour and last hour and a half being actinic only. Hopefully the changes I've made help stabilize things a little and just require minor adjustments from here on out =)


It's unlikely the browning is from CO2 but you'll be able to tell soon since you cranked it up. I suspect you'll see it get worse because I think it's your nitrate bottoming at certain parts of the day as the uptake rate increasing due to the following reason.

Your lighting schedule is actually only 7.5 hours because the Actinic lighting is not utilized (at least not in any significant amount) by plants. And from 12 - 1:30 and 5 - 7:30 you have only 1 set of lights. I suspect it's the nitrates are bottoming in the 1:30 to 5 PM period when your lighting is all on. Is that when you measured your nitrates? And say at 5 PM just before the daylights bank goes off, is the drop checker green. Those observations will give you more answers. Overall though, you're watching your plant development and response which is the best way to adjust things. I suspect that now you're dosing dry ferts the problems may correct itself, but since you did that and upped the CO2, you can't be sure which one fixed the problem. Going forward, if you adjust one thing at a time then you'll know what the root cause was. Of course that's easier said than done as one tends to try to fix the problem ASAP, which is what I tend to do too.


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## kacairns

2wheelsx2 said:


> It's unlikely the browning is from CO2 but you'll be able to tell soon since you cranked it up. I suspect you'll see it get worse because I think it's your nitrate bottoming at certain parts of the day as the uptake rate increasing due to the following reason.
> 
> Your lighting schedule is actually only 7.5 hours because the Actinic lighting is not utilized (at least not in any significant amount) by plants. And from 12 - 1:30 and 5 - 7:30 you have only 1 set of lights. I suspect it's the nitrates are bottoming in the 1:30 to 5 PM period when your lighting is all on. Is that when you measured your nitrates? And say at 5 PM just before the daylights bank goes off, is the drop checker green. Those observations will give you more answers. Overall though, you're watching your plant development and response which is the best way to adjust things. I suspect that now you're dosing dry ferts the problems may correct itself, but since you did that and upped the CO2, you can't be sure which one fixed the problem. Going forward, if you adjust one thing at a time then you'll know what the root cause was. Of course that's easier said than done as one tends to try to fix the problem ASAP, which is what I tend to do too.


Thanks 2wheelsx2, always wonderful to come home to more knowledge and yes I have that same tendency too, which sometimes isn't a good thing as you can make things worse that way!

The co2 indicator at the time when I was looking was green for the most part and slight tint of blue, which is why I went up on the co2. Dosing with the dry ferts I'll be using the same amounts for 2 weeks and if I need to adjust them, that is when I will do it and I plan to take readings every 2 days of iron/nitrates around 4-5pm if I get home in time! Just so I know what is happening at peak time of day and more towards the end of it as that would be the time when it would be running out of nutrients if it is.

Currently the co2 is sitting a nice green tint only by the looks of it, so I'm going to say safe to say now it isn't co2 and if things don't improve it'll be traced down to nitrates as you say. Of course I changed 3 things all at once, upped co2, lowered lighting, changed to dry dosing ferts so only time will tell I guess and who knows I might end up having to decrease the co2 I increased since I've changed the lighting schedule\

I'm pleased with this learning experience, 180gallon planted is a lot more interesting and rewarding to develop then a 29gallon tank, bright side is the 29gallon will be discus tank now! =)


----------



## kacairns

Results of testing tonight just after full lighting turned off.

Phosphates around 0.5-1.0ppm
Chelated Iron 0.1ppm
Nitrate under 5ppm
KH 45-55ppm
PH 6.6

So based on the KH/PH I'm where I want to be for co2 dosing. Based on the reading I did for my plants I want to try and have my phosphates at 1.75ppm, Chelated Iron around 0.35ppm and Nitrate around 5ppm for optimum growth.

I have another week and a bit of fert mixtures done up so I'll see this course out, I know based on my reading above I need to increase my KNO3 as I'm only dosing at 3.5ppm and 0.6ppm of KH2PO4 and 0.2ppm chelate iron.


----------



## jobber

kacairns said:


> I've currently have about 32 Rummynose Tetra in there, 3 silvertip tetra, 4 glowlight tetra, 4 cardinal tetra, 3 female betta, small pleco, 8 otocinlus.
> 
> Future plans include 50-75 cardinal tetra and I had been thinking of some dwarf neon rainbow or german blue ram and ultimate goal is to have adult discus in there as well. If I ever get to having the adult discus in this tank I"ll probably remove the rummynose tetra and either increase amount of german blue ram or cardinal tetra.


The tank is going to look amazing the that size school of cardinals. It's nice to see you keep your selection of fish choices to a specific region. Look forward to seeing updates...but most importantly pictures.


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## 2wheelsx2

kacairns said:


> Results of testing tonight just after full lighting turned off.
> 
> Phosphates around 0.5-1.0ppm
> Chelated Iron 0.1ppm
> Nitrate under 5ppm
> KH 45-55ppm
> PH 6.6
> 
> So based on the KH/PH I'm where I want to be for co2 dosing. Based on the reading I did for my plants I want to try and have my phosphates at 1.75ppm, Chelated Iron around 0.35ppm and Nitrate around 5ppm for optimum growth.
> 
> I have another week and a bit of fert mixtures done up so I'll see this course out, I know based on my reading above I need to increase my KNO3 as I'm only dosing at 3.5ppm and 0.6ppm of KH2PO4 and 0.2ppm chelate iron.


Are you buffering the water for GH/KH? If so, the charts don't work. It only works if you don't add buffers which is propping up your pH/KH.


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## kacairns

jobber604 said:


> The tank is going to look amazing the that size school of cardinals. It's nice to see you keep your selection of fish choices to a specific region. Look forward to seeing updates...but most importantly pictures.


Honestly it was unintentional region specific selection of fish! I've always liked different species of tetras from when I was a child. I would like to have a group of glowlight tetra, rummynose tetra and cardinal tetra all in the same tank. The discus will be the icing on the top of the cake for the future!



2wheelsx2 said:


> Are you buffering the water for GH/KH? If so, the charts don't work. It only works if you don't add buffers which is propping up your pH/KH.


No buffering of GH or KH. Only thing I'm adding to the tank is Nutrafina Aqua+ for new water ( will be changing to seachem prime as soon as this bottle runs out ) then the dry ferts (KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4 and Plantex CSM +B)

Just trimmed the plants today, get rid of the newer growth that looked bad from the nutrient deficiency so hopefully things start to look better with the ferts looking to be doing what they need to.

Now I just need to find some good stainless steel 24" angled forceps and scissors to make plant maintenance easy and less my arm will go in the tank for the fishes sake. Shipping on EBAY from the states is almost as much as the product costs!


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## 2wheelsx2

kacairns said:


> No buffering of GH or KH. Only thing I'm adding to the tank is Nutrafina Aqua+ for new water ( will be changing to seachem prime as soon as this bottle runs out ) then the dry ferts (KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4 and Plantex CSM +B)
> 
> Just trimmed the plants today, get rid of the newer growth that looked bad from the nutrient deficiency so hopefully things start to look better with the ferts looking to be doing what they need to.
> 
> Now I just need to find some good stainless steel 24" angled forceps and scissors to make plant maintenance easy and less my arm will go in the tank for the fishes sake. Shipping on EBAY from the states is almost as much as the product costs!


That's a good measurement then. But you might want to consider buffering the water a bit because you're going to need Ca/Mg anyway. As a matter of fact, I wonder if that's what the deficiency is. Wondering hurt to test that out.

Have you tried 24" scissors and forceps? I suspect you'll find them unwieldy. I use 12" forceps and find them awkward and grab them close to the end anyway. 24" scissors might be manageable. I personally love the "wave" scissors from Patrick, but they are only 12".


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## onefishtwofish

I saw a big tank like yours and he mixed neon tetras with his cardinals it was a really cool contrast in colors. he had about 100 with his discus. looked great.


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## kacairns

onefishtwofish said:


> I saw a big tank like yours and he mixed neon tetras with his cardinals it was a really cool contrast in colors. he had about 100 with his discus. looked great.


I'm excited to see how the tank will turn out, especially with all the work I'm putting in! Going to be awhile before I get all the colour contrast going as I don't want to have more fish in the tank at the moment until I get all the dosing and so on proper so the fish can live in peace =)



2wheelsx2 said:


> That's a good measurement then. But you might want to consider buffering the water a bit because you're going to need Ca/Mg anyway. As a matter of fact, I wonder if that's what the deficiency is. Wondering hurt to test that out.
> 
> Have you tried 24" scissors and forceps? I suspect you'll find them unwieldy. I use 12" forceps and find them awkward and grab them close to the end anyway. 24" scissors might be manageable. I personally love the "wave" scissors from Patrick, but they are only 12".


I've bought the wave scissors from Patrick as well those are the Ebiken ones, they are wonderful and sharp and feel really good to handle, I'm just trying to avoid having to put my arms up to the elbow into the tank more then I need to. This more for when I need to trim the dwarf hair grass, even now though trimming lower down on some of the plants to remove aerial roots and so on when you've got like 8-10 areas is to go into is becoming cumbersome. The forceps I don't think I'd need to much because if I replant things I need the control and as you mention I usually hold lower down on them anyways even at 12". The scissors would probably be much easier to handle then the forceps at 24".

I picked up a plastic combination set of forceps/scissors at IPU today, they don't have enough power to cut through the stem of the leaf on my anubias while in the tank, I had to pull it out and cut it outside of the tank where I could apply enough pressure to cut and the metal blades on them are no where near sharp enough to even attempt to trim the dwarf hair grass.

Guess I'll pickup a Ca and Mg test kit when I'm out tomorrow and see if that is where the deficiency is, I was reading about the buffering the other day, just haven't go around to doing something about it!


----------



## kacairns

BBA has been pretty much elimated as tank has stabilized, there is a little bit left on the 2 original Anubias leaves that are left in the tank which will be removed tomorrow during what change/tank maintenance. The Anubias has sprung up 4-5 new leafs showing no deformities in the past few days. Plants are all looking healthy. I need to figure out a better way of diffusing co2 into the tank instead of the 3 in 1 ones I have as I've had to crank it up so much that I've used almost a full 10lbs tank in almost a month to keep the drop checker green. As I haven't had a chance to run out and refill the tank I've cranked it way back and am supplemented with excel, fish and plants seem to be fine. I have a lot of green spot algae in the tank from when the phosphate levels were low, I've just added a crew of pleco's to take care of things that way and phosphate levels on last test are where I want them.

I'm thinking of possibly building my own "reactor" and putting it inline just above the pumps returning to the tank so it will be go through the spray bar that is fully submersed. Another idea if had to was create a reactor that would feed into the inputs on the return pumps so that the co2 would also go through the impellers for a 2nd stage of chopped up. Any ideas would be much appreciated!

Added some new inhabitants to the tank.

Cleanup crew
5 Silvertip BNP (CanadianAquatics)
1 Albino Long Fin (Fantasy Aquatic)
1 "L144" yellow with blue eyes (Fantasy Aquatic)
1 Calico (Fantasy Aquatic)

Betta
Added another 2 males and a female to have a total of 4 females and 2 males. The smaller and better looking male got his ass kicked by the dominate female and I've since moved him to his own bowl. He isn't the better looking one anymore unfortunately. I hope to reintroduce him once he has become bigger. The larger male when they came to chase him told the dominate female where to go and everything is fine. In fact the 4 females and one male from time to time swim around together.

Dominate female and male playing together today. Hard to take a picture as when the red light on the camera comes on they usually dart away!









Smaller male "super delta" who got his ass kicked by the dominate female, this was before... he doesn't look like this anymore!









"L144" grazing on the GSA right next to a Oto









Calico trying to clean off one of the overflows









The original Long Fin BNP with a Silvertip BNP in the background









One of the juvie Silvertip BNP


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## jaymz

Very nice tank I just picked up a 170 for a planted tank over the weekend, this gave me some great ideas and insight as to what im getting myself into lol


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## kacairns

Feel free to ask questions! I've spent a fair deal of money in good and bad areas in this learning experience and have been changing things as I go!


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## kacairns

Don't know what is going on in my tank but todays feeding I noticed the Long Fin Pleco is starting to look fat around the belly and I've got a cardinal tetra that looks like she is about to burst.

I wonder if this has to do with how I did the water change on Monday. I put the new water into the sump and turned the pump on a couple of times as the sump filled up, created a rain affect in the tank coming out of the spray bar. Either that or they must of heard a Barry White song on the TV...


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## 2wheelsx2

Barometric pressure change from low to high to low. I've had 2 discus spawns this week....


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## kacairns

Received the sample of california freeze dried worms today and put about 1/3 of a cube in to see what the reaction would be from the fish. It took about 3-4 minutes of the betta's approaching and slowly looking at, seemingly sniffing before someone took the first bite. Little snippet of it all, within 15 minutes the whole portion was completely gone.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Looking forward to its final incarnation. Looks great so far.


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## vladik.b

Hello! Nice set up! Got same tank for myself/ used one. Trying figure out what needs for equip. If you cad give me idea what you running for lights, skimmer,sump.if you have a ny pic of set up,would help me allot!Thanks!!!


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## kacairns

Start at first part of thread, I've got pics of everything I believe and list of all I used for hardware I believe throughout the thread


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## kacairns

Well I've been neglecting the tank since the start of the discus grow out competition, I had run out of co2 and it took me 2 weeks to get it refilled and then 2 weeks before I found time to modify how it gets fed into the tank. During that time I was using seachem excel on the tank, drawf hair grass stopped growing and started turning brown, and eedless to say I ended up with a massive algae outbreak in the tank of green spot algae on the glass and it took me a good hour and a half of scraping today to clean it up, cut back the plants further and did a 40g water change. My TDS has started to finally come down from when tank was first setup, I was originally up over 1140 and now its down in the 800s before today's water change.

I believe due to the overflows unless I have the co2 diffusers on the front glass in plain view the co2 doesn't have enough time to absorb into the water, heading straight up and out the overflows into the sump. I originally tried putting a single 10" micro-pore diffuser that I bought at JL, it helped a tiny bit as it was giving finer bubbles but I was still not able to the co2 indicator up to green and I thought if I cranked the co2 up anymore I'd be done a 10lbs tank in a month or turn the diffuser into a missile! My solution was to buy a 3" PVC T, 3 caps and a length of 3" tube. I cut 3/4" holes to fit the return pumps into a end cap at each end of the PVC T and at the single part of the T I cut end cap in half so it would only leave half the opening of the pipe open so co2 that didn't get sucked into the pumps immediately didn't escape into the sump.

The co2 indicator after this modification was showing over the past few days that it was heading from blue to green, but just wasn't there yet. Today ridding the tank of algae and cutting back the plants was enough to almost make me supplying too much co2 to the tank, so this method is definitely better then the previous 2 setups I had.

Pleco's enjoy Australian FDBW as well sometimes I have to put 2 cubes on the glass because one of the silvertip bnp decides its his cube and chases away the rummynose tetra's and bettas and then will put his whole mouth over top of the cube and start sucking.










The tank room during water change, tank on the right is a 56g and will be future home of the discus in the 26g bowfront. The 26g tank will turn into a quarantine tank for new fish going into the 180g. Will probably make that move in a month or two! I was thinking of putting like 100 cardinal tetra and possibly selling the rummynose tetra, but not sure. Any suggestions?










Plants and everything trimmed back almost to how it was on new setup, removed all algae from glass and cut back plants enough to remove all improper growth/algae affected growth. I added a few little bouquets of java fern to the driftwood in the centre of the tank as well as tied one to a rock.


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## kacairns

Added a piece of drift wood I pickedup from Moloto the other day. Thing fits in beautifully but looks like I need to grab a half bag or something of eco-complete now to level out my substrate, didn't realize it was so shallow back there in the tank!










Noticed off the chart phosphate levels in today's test so preformed a 40g water change, letting tank settle down and then will re-test


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## 2wheelsx2

Did you test nitrates too? Where would the phosphates be coming from, as it looks like your fish load is very small?


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## kacairns

Nitrate level isn't super high but is at 35. Everything started to go south when co2 ran out at same time I picked up discus for the grow out competition and wasn't able to get co2 refilled for 2 weeks. Seachem excel doesn't work anywhere close to what co2 does. Put off a water change by a week, major green spot algae outbreak, cleaned tank cut back plants finally and removed as much of the algae as I could, nitrates are sitting at 35ppm so a little high but I wouldn't think that 35ppm could cause the phosphate to show higher then that! Now I need to just get everything back in balance which I think another water change tomorrow should get phosphates and nitrate down to where they should be. Might have to lower my fert dosing as well


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## kacairns

Well ended up doing a 2nd water change at 11:30 last night. Nitrate results are down to around 25ppm which is where it should be, phosphates are somewhere between 2.5 and 5 on my hagen kit and somewhere between 2.5 and 3 on my seachem kit definitely high still.

I swapped out one floss filter last week, and I swapped out the other when I did the water change yesterday, at most each floss stays in the filter for 2 weeks, after 1 week they don't look that dirty at all so. So I don't think its a build up in that portion of the filter.

Any suggestions? =)


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## 77_Bus_Girl

Any chance you've changed the food you're feeding? I believe different foods contain different amounts of phosphorus...which can then come out the 'other end' more concentrated. 
I found this list of things that contribute to phosphate:

* uneaten food
* plant decay
* dying algae
* fish feces
* dead fish
* carbon filter media
* aquarium salts
* pH buffers
* kH buffers

and the water supply itself.

I don't know how accurate it is, but it may spark an idea.

Good luck!
(I think you can add something called a phosphate pillow that sucks up excess phosphate. Never seen one in action though)


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## kacairns

77_Bus_Girl said:


> Any chance you've changed the food you're feeding? I believe different foods contain different amounts of phosphorus...which can then come out the 'other end' more concentrated.
> I found this list of things that contribute to phosphate:
> 
> * uneaten food
> * plant decay
> * dying algae
> * fish feces
> * dead fish
> * carbon filter media
> * aquarium salts
> * pH buffers
> * kH buffers
> 
> and the water supply itself.
> 
> I don't know how accurate it is, but it may spark an idea.
> 
> Good luck!
> (I think you can add something called a phosphate pillow that sucks up excess phosphate. Never seen one in action though)


- No uneaten food in the tank, I feed them very lighting and for the past 3 weeks they've been getting 1 cube of australian freeze dried black worms, consumed within a minute completely usually. The fish are technically under fed!
- Plant decay isn't a problem, I cut out anything that doesn't look good
- Weekly I use gravel vac on the exposed portions of the substrate.
- Nothing has died in the tank within the last few months
- don't use carbon filter media
- don't use aquarium salt
- Buffers used state they don't contribute to phosphates

Only thing could be from that list is dying algae from when I cleaned the tank, I did a gravel vacuum after maybe it just mixed the algae up in the substrate more then anything and its dying...

Either that or possibly the kh2po4 I'm dosing, maybe the plants have absorbed all they can at the moment and I should cut back on it until they catch up... unsure about that, really don't want to play with ferts right now as I could make the issue worse if I'm wrong =)


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## oppai

just went through your journal and wanted to say what a great looking tank and stand you have.


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## kacairns

oppai said:


> just went through your journal and wanted to say what a great looking tank and stand you have.


Thank you =)


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## 2wheelsx2

Are you dosing full EI now with dry ferts? One way to tell is to not does the KH2PO4 and take a reading after you dose and then a day later. If you uptake is lower than you intake it'll be rising instead of falling. If your PO4 is from the inorganic ferts, I wouldn't worry about it, as the water changes will take of that and excess inorganic P is not going to harm anything at these levels, but if it's from decay, or fish food or something else, then you mean need to consider cutting out the KH2PO4 dosing and doing more water changes for a while until the problem is figured out.


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## kacairns

2wheelsx2 said:


> Are you dosing full EI now with dry ferts? One way to tell is to not does the KH2PO4 and take a reading after you dose and then a day later. If you uptake is lower than you intake it'll be rising instead of falling. If your PO4 is from the inorganic ferts, I wouldn't worry about it, as the water changes will take of that and excess inorganic P is not going to harm anything at these levels, but if it's from decay, or fish food or something else, then you mean need to consider cutting out the KH2PO4 dosing and doing more water changes for a while until the problem is figured out.


I'm currently dosing with a daily setup for dry ferts. The KH2PO4 dosing is giving a level of .6ppm daily, pretty much half of what the EI dosing would be every 2days. I stopped dosing for 2 days to see what was what and levels of nitrates, iron and so on started to bottom out, phosphates were still through the roof. I've got to make a new mixture today so I'll mix the KH2PO4 separately so I can figure out what is going on. I'm thinking maybe a quick vacuum and a water change tonight might be in order as well to get levels lower if I have time.


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## kacairns

Well I decided to put the pleco cave in the tank that I got from Luke78 awhile back. After 2 nights of it being in the tank, I have eggs inside it and the male is doing a nice little dance at the front of the cave protecting them. The first night when the cave went in, the male was cleaning away, dragged some substrate inside, and today when I got home from work I was surprised! I have 3 different females in the tank and have no clue which could be the mother as they are all acting like nothing happened! Its either a long fin bnp, a albino long fin bnp or a silver tip bnp. They are listed in order of size/adult hood as well and I'm sort of hoping that it is one the the first two. Will take pictures later!


----------



## Teak

kacairns said:


> I believe due to the overflows unless I have the co2 diffusers on the front glass in plain view the co2 doesn't have enough time to absorb into the water, heading straight up and out the overflows into the sump. I originally tried putting a single 10" micro-pore diffuser that I bought at JL, it helped a tiny bit as it was giving finer bubbles but I was still not able to the co2 indicator up to green and I thought if I cranked the co2 up anymore I'd be done a 10lbs tank in a month or turn the diffuser into a missile! My solution was to buy a 3" PVC T, 3 caps and a length of 3" tube. I cut 3/4" holes to fit the return pumps into a end cap at each end of the PVC T and at the single part of the T I cut end cap in half so it would only leave half the opening of the pipe open so co2 that didn't get sucked into the pumps immediately didn't escape into the sump.


I am pretty new to this whole aquarium thing (2 months) but what I have started doing is using a Hagen Elite Mini underwater filter as my CO2 Diffuser. I found that the normal diffuser just let all the co2 go straight up and out. I thought this was a bit of a waste. This filter actually blows it out sideways. Now it seems to be working, but like I said I am very new to this whole thing so if anybody know a reason why I shouldn't use this, then please let me know.

I have attached a pic. You can't see it that well, but I can see little tiny co2 bubbles all over the place. Hopefully you can make it out


----------



## kacairns

Teak said:


> I am pretty new to this whole aquarium thing (2 months) but what I have started doing is using a Hagen Elite Mini underwater filter as my CO2 Diffuser. I found that the normal diffuser just let all the co2 go straight up and out. I thought this was a bit of a waste. This filter actually blows it out sideways. Now it seems to be working, but like I said I am very new to this whole thing so if anybody know a reason why I shouldn't use this, then please let me know.
> 
> I have attached a pic. You can't see it that well, but I can see little tiny co2 bubbles all over the place. Hopefully you can make it out
> 
> View attachment 14469


Longer the co2 is in the water the higher the chance it'll be absorbed so have it shoot out sideways in the tank instead of upwards will prolong that, the impeller will to some extend chop up the co2 smaller but you should look at some way to diffuse it and then have it sucked through your filter for even better results. My setup now only gave me 1 month on a 10lbs tank which isn't very good if you ask me, if I don't find a way to get it 2x or more I might have to look at scrapping the full planted 180g tank as $400+ in co2 a year isn't my idea of a good investment just for plants!


----------



## monkE

kacairns said:


> Longer the co2 is in the water the higher the chance it'll be absorbed so have it shoot out sideways in the tank instead of upwards will prolong that, the impeller will to some extend chop up the co2 smaller but you should look at some way to diffuse it and then have it sucked through your filter for even better results. My setup now only gave me 1 month on a 10lbs tank which isn't very good if you ask me, if I don't find a way to get it 2x or more I might have to look at scrapping the full planted 180g tank as $400+ in co2 a year isn't my idea of a good investment just for plants!


be careful trying to pump the co2 through an external canister filter because you can create a highly acidic environment inside that filter and destroy the bacteria that grows in there. using the internal filter does seem like a feasible idea, but I did the same thing just by placing a powerhead above my diffuser.


----------



## kacairns

monkE said:


> be careful trying to pump the co2 through an external canister filter because you can create a highly acidic environment inside that filter and destroy the bacteria that grows in there. using the internal filter does seem like a feasible idea, but I did the same thing just by placing a powerhead above my diffuser.


I have a sump setup, and I have a pvc pipe setup that contains my diffuser inside and the return pumps at the ends, so as the co2 is diffused into the the pvc pipe it is sucked in by the pumps and shot into the tank. Unfortunately I seem to need a almost a constant stream of co2 to get my co2 levels where I need to on my 180g tank, which is costing me a small fortune! In fact I need to set my co2 so high it if I turned it a notch higher it would be a stream instead of bubbles in my bubble counter


----------



## Teak

The filter itself has a type of venturi valve on the outlet that does a good job diffusing the CO2.
It is supposed to have an airline hooked up to aerate the water. I have just hooked up CO2 to it. I am getting smaller bubbles coming out of there than I used to get with my glass diffuser. Granted there are also some bigger bubbles, but I still see tiny bubbles everywhere.
$400+ a year on CO2 is ridiculous, I can understand why you would want to scrap it.


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## 2wheelsx2

I don't have a high light tank, but I use a 20 lb tank and fill it once every 10 months or so for my 125 gallon tank and it costs me $31 (just filled it today). I run a Bazooka diffuser on one end and an atomizer on the other end on the outlet of my 2028. You need to either reduce the surface agitation or check for a leak if you're using 10 lbs every month. Also you need to find a cheaper place to fill it. It's $25 a fill at Royal City Fire Supplies for a 10 lb.


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## Teak

That Bazooka diffuser looks the business. I'll be putting that on my Birthday list!


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## kacairns

2wheelsx2 said:


> I don't have a high light tank, but I use a 20 lb tank and fill it once every 10 months or so for my 125 gallon tank and it costs me $31 (just filled it today). I run a Bazooka diffuser on one end and an atomizer on the other end on the outlet of my 2028. You need to either reduce the surface agitation or check for a leak if you're using 10 lbs every month. Also you need to find a cheaper place to fill it. It's $25 a fill at Royal City Fire Supplies for a 10 lb.


I think the problem is due to my sump, water pouring down in and off gassing as it does, I've got no room to put in a valve to reduce the flow due to the size of the marineland sump I have, so I've planned to make a custom sump that'll let me address that issue and give me flexibility that I don't have with a fixed setup like the marineland one


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## archie

Wish I can build a cabinet like that. Start a bigger tank.


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## 2wheelsx2

kacairns said:


> I think the problem is due to my sump, water pouring down in and off gassing as it does, I've got no room to put in a valve to reduce the flow due to the size of the marineland sump I have, so I've planned to make a custom sump that'll let me address that issue and give me flexibility that I don't have with a fixed setup like the marineland one


If you submerge the plumbing that exits into the sump and seal the sump (Tom Barr uses an acrylic sheet and duct tape) you should still be able to keep most of the CO2 in. Your concern is the main reason I haven't sumped my tanks. You pretty much have to go custom to get the benefits of a sump in a planted tank with CO2.


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## kacairns

2wheelsx2 said:


> If you submerge the plumbing that exits into the sump and seal the sump (Tom Barr uses an acrylic sheet and duct tape) you should still be able to keep most of the CO2 in. Your concern is the main reason I haven't sumped my tanks. You pretty much have to go custom to get the benefits of a sump in a planted tank with CO2.











Unfortunately with the sump design I'll have a big problem trying to fully seal it off. The chamber where the water comes down in is already "sealed" I'd only have to put duct tape on it, but the whole design is pretty bad for my own setup. I only bought it because I got a good "deal" when I was buying everything else. I've got my heaters in the back chamber after the bio-wheels and my pumps in the front chamber submerged completely hooked into my custom pvc pipe setup for getting the co2 into the tank. The water just crashes down so fast into the sump since I don't have room for a shut off between the intake on the sump and the outlet on the tank. If that section was duct taped off I'd have to cut it every time to change filter floss, and I assume the trick down through the 3 filter media's is fine but its a 3" drop after the bio-wheels for the water as well that could be another area it is off gassing.

I have a area to put a custom sized sump of approximately 38" x 22", just need to spend some time to figure out how I should best design it to fix my problem or hopefully help fix! I will sometime in the next week or two post something with a sketch and get comments to see what I should modify/add/remove and so on and I'd love your input on that 2wheelsx2


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## 2wheelsx2

Yeah, those biowheels are killer too. Sure, you should post up and I'm sure lots of people with more sump experience than me can help too.


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## kacairns

Newest addition to the tank










I picked this beauty up last night from Rick, had just came out of the shipping box and had the paper taken off from around the bag. It was to late last night to add him to the community tank as lights were already out when I got home and settled down so I put him in his own bowl. He was having his first feeding of Australian FDBW with spinach in this picture a few minutes ago. I just dumped half the water in the bowl and am starting to swap in tank water, should be swimming with his new pals in no time.

I also moved the pleco cave into breeder net since I seen wigglers in the tube this morning, I will give them until the morning for any that still haven't come out of the sac to develop then I'll try and remove them from the cave and remove the male as well so they'll be in the breeder net by themselves. Hopefully they survive!


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## kacairns

Thought I'd snap some pictures of the other members of the tank while I was at it.

Super Delta that was in the tank previously who got his butt kicked by one of he females who stripped him completely bare, he no longer looks like a female betta

Before the attack









After a couple months of growing back no longer looking like a female betta









New guy being checked out by the old girl of the tank.

















This is the beautiful white female I picked up from Rick awhile back, don't think I've actually posted on this thread with her


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## kacairns

All the eggs have now hatched, little sign of some of the sacs still attached to some of the fry but rough guess would be about 30 fry plus male still in the cave. I couldn't get them out easily so I just left them inside the cave but dumped the gravel out into the tank and placed a couple of small algae wafers into the cave since I did see some of the fry without sacs anymore. Plan later tonight or tomorrow to put a piece of lettuce inside the breeder net in a hopes to lure the fry out


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## 2wheelsx2

At this stage, they eat a lot of high protein foods, so any small pellets you got will work. You don't have to limit it to it to veggie or wafers. I feed mine almost exclusively NLS Grow or small fish formula.


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## kacairns

Well since getting them out of the pleco cave and into the breeder net I've had a chance to count them! 54 or more without many of them moving during my count. Have only had 2 casualties which were noticed when I dumped them out of the pleco cave into the breeder net. They've devoured multiple algae wafers and half a piece of lettuce, will be picking up some NLS grow or Small fish fomula on the weekend to give a little more variety/nutrition.

Kids are loving looking at them darting around the net all the time, wow are they fast for their size


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## kacairns

Unfortunately I've had a bunch of the fry die over the past 3 days. I added a half dose of excel and within a few hours I had one of the fry die, first day I had 2 die, 2nd day I had 4 die, yesterday I had 6 die. So far in the past 12 hours since I did a 60g water change no more casualties. Not sure if its due to dirty conditions in the breeder net or if it was due to the excel but I'm hoping things settle down. The male is back in his cave attending to new eggs that were deposited last night as well.... Guess I need to get my discus switched over and a tank going for all these fry!


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## kacairns

Fry death stopped as right after I did the water change. Unfortunately the male silvertip bnp decided the eggs should be eaten by the looks of it as the cave is empty today.


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## kacairns

Well setup my discus tank and with that I setup the Neptune Apex controller on it. As so I've added a pH monitor now to this 180g tank and plugged the co2 tanks solenoid into the power bar for the apex controller.

Daytime pH levels are around 6.75pH and evening levels sit at 7.65pH

With being able to monitor pH and control the solenoid with the apex controller I have 2 options for how to run the co2 in the tank. I will be limiting the pH level that the tank can be reduced to based on my kH levels as well right now my tank is sitting at kH of 5 so I will set the co2 to be turned off when the pH hits 6.70 so the fish don't get gassed by accident.

Option 1: Time based, ie 30 minutes before lights on and end at lights out.

Option 2: Constantly keep the pH at a certain level based by turning on the co2 when it goes above the pH level by .05 and turning it off when it goes below the pH I want by .05pH. ie 6.75 is what I want, so at 6.8 turn it on at 6.7 turn it off.

Is there a downside to keeping the co2 levels up so high during the night since the tank is supposed to do its own co2 when lights are out?


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## kacairns

Release the hounds! I had released a couple of the fry into the main tank to see how they would fare with the other inhabitants, well I finally found one of the small little guys last night and his size growth is amazing compared to those who have been bound to the breeding net. He is nearly twice the size of the others so I've decided I'd lower the net and free them from their prison. There is approximately 40 little guys who I hope sometime over the next few hours will venture out of the net and into the "real world"


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## kacairns

My albino longfin bnp gets around... just looked in the tank and she is dancing with the calico bnp male in his cave, and over comes the silvertip bnp male she spawned with last time and they both wrap themselves around her....


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## kacairns

Nothing new to report really, had another 2 clutches of eggs hatch from the long fin female and silvertip male, looking as if some of the young ones from the 3 batches total now in the tank show signs that they might actually be long fin silvertips but I guess time will tell. Cut up a piece of lifegard aquatics aquamesh and put it in the overflows to prevent the young plecos from getting sucked down into the sump, unfortunately since I only had the black (most porous) the smallest, the ones that are under 2 weeks old, manage to wiggle their way through and into the sump, I've probably saved about 50 times now some sitting in the filter media of the sump and had about 20 deaths.

I got around to doing the mesh mod to the rio2500 pump on the tank today to make it similar to a needle wheel, well one of the two return pumps that are hooked up to my return chamber where I pump the co2 into. I have my neptune apex controller setup to bring the pH down the 6.7 and turn off the co2 so during they day it hovers around 6.6-6.75 all day long depending on the bursts of co2 into the pump return on the tank. This makes it so I don't have to dial in my co2 output to a certain bubble rate, I just make sure it is getting a little more co2 then required to bring it to where I want it and let the controller deal with monitoring the pH and turning it on/off. Based on the controllers information prior to modifying the 1 pump I had co2 turned on for 5 minutes and then off for 5 minutes during the lighting period. After the modification the co2 turns on for 4/5 minutes and is off from 7-8 minutes. Quick calculations say I've got the co2 turned off about 80 minutes longer during a 8 hour day light period compared to prior to modification and that was just a single pump of the two!


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## kacairns

Modified 2nd Rio2500 pump with the mesh mod to have it function similar to a needle wheel last night. Results are amazing now with my co2 usage in the tank.

Controller turns on the co2 for 4 minutes and then turns it off for 12-16 minutes keeping my co2 at a constant 6.6-6.7 during the photo period with both pumps modified.

Not modified co2 was on 5 minutes off 5 minutes.

1 pump modified on 4-5 minutes off 7-8 minutes
2 pumps modified on 4 minutes off 12-16 minutes.

Amazing what a little modification can do for co2 uptake in the tank


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## kacairns

Water change in the 180g tank today plus a nice feeding of tetra color granules, nice little video of a small batch of the fry from multiple spawns, not sure but couple look to be long fin =)


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## monkE

hard to tell in the video if they're long fin or not, but sure looks like lots of them!


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## kacairns

Lots of them for sure, that is about 1sqft of the tank bottom, I'd estimate easily 100 young ones in the tank and that is even with having just over 40 of them now dying from going into the overflow. Looked for solutions but unfortunately everything I'd be able to modify the overflow would really restrict flow back into the sump and I don't have valves on the return lines so I can't restrict flow back in at the moment


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## kacairns

Got a couple hours today to finally build a stand for the 29g tank I have sitting here so I can transfer the fry into that tank and stop having them go down the overflow!

Nothing fancy made from 3/4" paint grade plywood doweled and glues together, solid back on it and is 35 1/2" high so the 29g tank sits about 54" to the top of it. Solid as a rock of course. I designed it so I can put a shelf in the bottom area, no plans for doors on this one defeats the purpose of keeping the cost down. It can also hold another 29g tank on the bottom and the shelf can be put up higher to create a 8-10" shelving area above it. Yes I realize that it is unpainted, as soon as I finished making the pieces I couldn't fight the urge to just set the stand up and get the tank running! I didn't even edge the cut plywood that is how strong of a urge it was! Needless to say quickly ran down to JL, picked up a 125w jager heater and some sand came back home and continued setting things up. Quickly found out the light was burnt out in the hood, so I cut the wires and ripped out the T8 ballast and threw in 2x sunblaster ballasts. I spliced the wires for the push button and existing power of the canopy to one of the sunblasters and I drilled a hole in the canopy to feed the power supply for the 2nd sunblaster light. Apex Neptune controller all setup now just need to purchase a actinic bulb and setup will be done. Sponge filter has been sitting in the sump of the 180g for a month or two now.... now I just need to setup a trap to start catching the babies!


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## kacairns

Well managed to get all the adult bnp from the 180g tank finally, took some dismantling so took the time to trim back the plants. I'm not happy with the dwarf hair grass, I've only got about 1/3rd of the bottom covered, nutrients are good, flow is good, co2 is good, it just grows so slow its painful.

Rehomed 2 female silvertip bnp, 1 female L144 and a baby from the first spawn of my long fin female and silvertip male to Diztrbd1 (John) today. Will rehome a calico and a male silvertip with him tomorrow.


While dismantling things I found the calico was protecting some freshly hatched babies, unfortunately me unsettling things he took off and now I've put the about 15 babies in the 29g tank to fend for themselves, they don't even have colour yet and can still see they have some of the egg on. They've all managed to make their way to the back corner of the tank behind the sponge filter in the 29g tank so we'll see how they do.


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## kacairns

Well my son and I got permission to use the blender (as long as we buy a new one) to create some frozen food for the pleco's. So we did that today and it seems to be a hit, just judge by the first video yourself! It was taken about 1 minute after putting the bit into the tank.


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## kacairns

This video is of the 29g tank that the father plus new babies were moved into, as well as some of the ones that are displaying larger then usual fins from previous spawns. The large one in the video is almost 4 months old now and his tail fin is as long as his fathers already. Anyone who has dealt with baby long fins able to comment on weather this is in fact a long fin or if its just a larger then normal fin?


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## kacairns

Sold the Rummynose Tetra and the couple of Glowlight tetra that had been making this tank home. I had to fully dismantle the tank to do so, all rocks, all wood came out, had to use the glass tops and filter floss to divide the tank into 3 parts and drain the tank to 2" of water just to catch them and it took me 3 hours to catch them! Started around 7/730pm and I didn't get to bed until 1am after putting the tank back together and refilling! I decided I'd take out the dwarf hair grass that wasn't growing as good as I had intended, I only had about 1/2 the tanks bottom covered with it and it seemed more content to grow under the substrate then to have itself show on top! I had about a full cup of beautiful green dwarf hair grass that never seen the light of day but had spread itself beneath the surface of the substrate.

Well with that all take care of I picked up 100 cardinal tetra from Charles on Saturday morning and added them to the tank.

Acclimatizing, sure doesn't look like 100!










In there new home together now










Overall of the tank without the dwarf hair grass now










I also had a unfortunately incident in my 29g that I transfered the BNP into. 1 of the albino long fin I got off another member decided that it would venture into the tube on top of the sponge filter. I don't know how long it was in there but less then 24 hours. The damage was done, all its nice long fins were no longer there and you could see all the red spots from other damage to its body. It was still alive and moving when I took it out, but it couldn't swim and could tell it was in obvious pain so i put it out of its misery. Has anyone ever had their sponge filter pretty much kill a tank inhabitant!


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## Diztrbd1

The new school looks great in there. . I feel your pain but dont feel sorry for ya lol make me think of when my 33 was a dense jungle and I had to catch 2 CAE's in it....had to pull out 95% of the plants and decor to catch the lil boogers....took about an hour lol Was so mad and frustrated by the end, was never so happy to give a couple fish away lol top of the tank is about level with my nose so my arm was numb from having to reach over the tank while trying to see the mini missiles to catch em lol On the bright side the tank got rescaped and plants thinned out so I could see all the fish again lol


Sorry for the ABNP , thats a tough way to go. Must me some serious mean bubbles flowing out of there. Maybe some mesh cloth over the tube could help prevent future issues?

BTW what is Drard hair grass? Sounds cool ...any pix?


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## kacairns

Diztrbd1 said:


> The new school looks great in there. . I feel your pain but dont feel sorry for ya lol make me think of when my 33 was a dense jungle and I had to catch 2 CAE's in it....had to pull out 95% of the plants and decor to catch the lil boogers....took about an hour lol Was so mad and frustrated by the end, was never so happy to give a couple fish away lol top of the tank is about level with my nose so my arm was numb from having to reach over the tank while trying to see the mini missiles to catch em lol On the bright side the tank got rescaped and plants thinned out so I could see all the fish again lol
> 
> Sorry for the ABNP , thats a tough way to go. Must me some serious mean bubbles flowing out of there. Maybe some mesh cloth over the tube could help prevent future issues?
> 
> BTW what is Drard hair grass? Sounds cool ...any pix?


There fixed, read the reason =)


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## Diztrbd1

lol thought I was improving the new name. Was some nagging going on while I was typing  lol


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## kacairns

Added another 75 Cardinal Tetra today and 6 german blue rams....


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## Diztrbd1

need about 825 more cardinals lol if your lucky the rams will multiply pretty quick.....mine were always breeding. Will be some nice color and activity going on there after you get the Discus in there too


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## kacairns

Diztrbd1 said:


> need about 825 more cardinals lol if your lucky the rams will multiply pretty quick.....mine were always breeding. Will be some nice color and activity going on there after you get the Discus in there too


Even if the rams breed the 100 silvertip plecos in there might not let the eggs last! The plan is to have them discus in the tank by mid July so that I have 1 month of them being in the 180g before going on Vacation for 2 weeks, btw you're doing a water change for me right? =)


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## Diztrbd1

$100 a trip I will....and it's not my fault if the Discus manage to jump out ....and conveniently land in my tank lol


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## kacairns

Feeding time in the 180g for the cardinals and german blue rams, even a couple of the bnp want to get in on the australian FDBW cubes






Note to self, next time close the hood on the tank so that my reflection isn't in the glass as I film, good thing it is middle of the day and I had clothes on! =)


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## Steve

Awesome video! Can't wait to see the discus in that lovely tank


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## kacairns

Thanks to shift for his nice writeup on making a arduino based autodoser for ferts. I just finished soldering up everthing for a 4 pump application, need to re-write the code and figure out what I'm going to use for a box and fert containers but that is all the easy parts! =)


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## monkE

The tank looks fantastic man! i love those cardinals!!!


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## kacairns

Sure is amazing having them in there, I like them much better then the rummynose tetra that were in the tank before. I just hope when the discus make the move tomorrow they take it the cardinals as a new food source! Would be most expensive food they ever ate


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## kacairns

Pictures of the discus now in their new home can be seen here!

2nd Annual Discus Grow Out Contest Journal: Kevin (kacairns) - Page 14

and... baby bnp have really taken a liking to the home made food!


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## kacairns

Not finished but... 4 dosing pump based on information supplied by Shift in his thread (http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/diy-area-18/arduino-auto-dosser-38191/)




























* Added heat sink to regulator due to how hot the regular gets, also added to mosfet's but don't think they get hot, just ordered 15 heatsinks and wanted to use a few =)
* Added 4th pump
* placed diode between +/- of pumps themselves, I believe this is the proper placement of them based on what I've read
* Changed to a actual DS1307 library for the clock, had lots of plans for the code, then I ended up just hacking it together.
* code supports 4 pumps, is set to dose 3 pumps 3 days of the week, at 3 different times during those days and 1 pump on 3 other days of the week and 3 times during that day.

Code and library can be found here

I will finish this when I get a few more parts I ordered, ie the holder and figure out what I'll be using for my containers for the ferts. Main code shown below



Code:


// Oringal idea from Deven Rich, although not much of the original code survived my hack!
// This project was built on the Arduino Uno - ATmega328P
 
#include "Wire.h"
#include <DS1307.h>
 
//define pins for motors
int motorPin1 = 9;
int motorPin2 = 10;
int motorPin3 = 12;
int motorPin4 = 13;

//define hours to run, pumps are hard coded to run at 5 minutes 10 seconds on hours defined below
int first_hour = 11;
int second_hour = 14;
int third_hour = 16;

//define how long motors will run 1000 = approximately 1ml, increase in units of 1000 (1second)
int kno3_dose_amount = 9000;
int kh2p04_dose_amount = 6000;
int k2so4_dose_amount = 9000;
int plantex_dose_amount = 9000;

 
// run once, when the sketch starts 
void setup() {

    pinMode(motorPin1, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(motorPin2, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(motorPin3, OUTPUT);
    pinMode(motorPin4, OUTPUT);
 
    Wire.begin();
    Serial.begin(9600);
    
    // Sets the time for the clock, only required first time run.
    /*
    RTC.stop();
    RTC.set(DS1307_SEC,1); //set the seconds
    RTC.set(DS1307_MIN,19); //set the minutes
    RTC.set(DS1307_HR,11); //set the hours
    RTC.set(DS1307_DOW,6); //set the day of the week
    RTC.set(DS1307_DATE,22); //set the date
    RTC.set(DS1307_MTH,6); //set the month
    RTC.set(DS1307_YR,13); //set the year
    RTC.start();
    */
    
}

void check_time() {

}

void dose_ferts() {
    Serial.print("        Running pump #1 KNO3    ");
    analogWrite(motorPin1, 255); // turns the motor on
    Serial.print(kno3_dose_amount/1000);
    Serial.println("ml");
    delay(kno3_dose_amount);
    analogWrite(motorPin1, 0); // turns the motor off
                  
    Serial.print("        Running pump #2 KH2P04  ");
    analogWrite(motorPin2, 255); // turns the motor on
    Serial.print(kh2p04_dose_amount/1000);
    Serial.println("ml");
    delay(kh2p04_dose_amount);
    analogWrite(motorPin2, 0); // turns the motor off
                  
    Serial.print("        Running pump #3 K2S04   ");
    analogWrite(motorPin3, 255); // turns the motor on
    Serial.print(k2so4_dose_amount/1000);
    Serial.println("ml");
    delay(k2so4_dose_amount);
    analogWrite(motorPin3, 0); // turns the motor off
}

void dose_plantex() {
    Serial.print("        Running pump #4 Plantex CSM+B    ");
    analogWrite(motorPin4, 255); // turns the motor on
    Serial.print(plantex_dose_amount/1000);
    Serial.println("ml");
    delay(plantex_dose_amount);
    analogWrite(motorPin4, 0); // turns the motor off
}

// loop() runs over and over
void loop() {
 
    // this prints the output to the serial window (tools > serial monitor in arduino) and is great for testing
    Serial.print(RTC.get(DS1307_HR,true)); //read the hour and also update all the values by pushing in true
    Serial.print(":");
    Serial.print(RTC.get(DS1307_MIN,false));//read minutes without update (false)
    Serial.print(":");
    Serial.print(RTC.get(DS1307_SEC,false));//read seconds
    Serial.print(" "); // some space for a more happy life
    Serial.print(RTC.get(DS1307_DATE,false));//read date
    Serial.print("/");
    Serial.print(RTC.get(DS1307_MTH,false));//read month
    Serial.print("/");
    Serial.print(RTC.get(DS1307_YR,false)); //read year
    Serial.print(" ");
    
    int day_of_week = RTC.get(DS1307_DOW, false);
    int case_week_day = 0;
    int hour_of_day = RTC.get(DS1307_HR,false);
    
    if (day_of_week == 1 || day_of_week == 3 || day_of_week == 6) case_week_day = 1;
    if (day_of_week == 2 || day_of_week == 4 || day_of_week == 7) case_week_day = 2;
    
    if (case_week_day == 1 || case_week_day == 2) {
      
        if((hour_of_day == first_hour) || (hour_of_day == second_hour) || (hour_of_day == third_hour)) {
      
            if (RTC.get(DS1307_MIN,false) == 05 && (RTC.get(DS1307_SEC,false) == 10)) {
                switch (case_week_day) {
                    case 1:
                        Serial.println("  Trigger dosing of main ferts. . . .");
                        dose_ferts();
                        break;
                    case 2:
                        Serial.println("  Trigger dosing of trace ferts. . . .");
                        dose_plantex();
                        break;
                }
            } else {
             
                Serial.println(" Not time to run. . . . wrong minute/second"); 
              
            }
     
        } else {
          
            Serial.println("  Not time to run. . . . wrong hour"); 
          
        }
        
    } else {       
      
        Serial.println("Nothing to do today skipping!");
      
    }
             
    delay(1000); // delays 1 second before running the loop again.
 
}


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## shift

Looking good so far!! Keep up the good work


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## Goldfish

Wow, the cardinals look amazing!


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## PlantedAquariums

Looks great Looking forward to seeing the setup


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## coppercloud

how much did the tank cost?


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## kacairns

coppercloud said:


> how much did the tank cost?


Tank alone or everything involved?


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## coppercloud

just the tank


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## kacairns

coppercloud said:


> just the tank


When I bought it I think I paid $569 plus tax... 4 months later I went to look at prices and it was $799 plus tax at same place =)


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## Luke78

Quite the scene with all those cardinals buzzing around, do they school nice and tight all the time? Or get a few that veer off? Looking good other wise


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## kacairns

Luke78 said:


> Quite the scene with all those cardinals buzzing around, do they school nice and tight all the time? Or get a few that veer off? Looking good other wise


They usually school in 2 groups at either end of the tank depending what the discus are doing. 1 group is larger then the other but from time to time they all school together with a few here and there on their own. Unfortunately I think the discus that are hiding all day long in the tank are making late night snacks out of the cardinals as I've been finding a few dead here and there lately


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## Luke78

Kevin,

Interesting you mentioned this.When i had my Wilds, my school of about 24-30 slowly disappeared with time.I was warned by the seasoned discus people here and other sites, that this might occur and needs attention.Lone behold a year later all gone.I am sure you feed well, but with bigger fish comes opportunity for a snack and the calling of mother nature.Hopefully your in your case, this doesn't happen.



kacairns said:


> They usually school in 2 groups at either end of the tank depending what the discus are doing. 1 group is larger then the other but from time to time they all school together with a few here and there on their own. Unfortunately I think the discus that are hiding all day long in the tank are making late night snacks out of the cardinals as I've been finding a few dead here and there lately


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## kacairns

Luke78 said:


> Kevin,
> 
> Interesting you mentioned this.When i had my Wilds, my school of about 24-30 slowly disappeared with time.I was warned by the seasoned discus people here and other sites, that this might occur and needs attention.Lone behold a year later all gone.I am sure you feed well, but with bigger fish comes opportunity for a snack and the calling of mother nature.Hopefully your in your case, this doesn't happen.


I don't believe its the well fed ones that are doing the opportunistic feeding on the cardinals. There are 7 Discus in the tank, only 3 of them show themselves and come for feeding, the other 4 hide until the lights are out for the most part and when I have cubes of worms and so on on the glass they don't come out to feed. I believe its them that are taking the cardinal as food when they finally get to the point they need to eat . Its rather funny looking at them trying to hide in the tank, they will cram themselves laying flat in under drift wood when the lights come on, and then as soon as they are off they come out and roam around.


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## kacairns

Picked up 2 beautiful discus from guppygeorge today. Please to meet such a wonderful member of the site and I look forward to seeing these beauties in swimming free in the tank once they are done acclimatizing!


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## kacairns

Ive had to stop dosing ferts for the moment so having nice algae blooms, the plecos in the tank enjoy it and even the discus are getting their feeding on the algae. This is a attempt lower the TDS to get one of the discus to settle in properly and start eating as it should. Will reintroduce the ferts and get things looking decent again once that has happened!

With that said here are the two beautiful discus I picked up today from guppygeorge.

Red Raffleisia about 3 - 3 1/2" in size










Looks to be a snakeskin discus, it fits in beautifully in the tank


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## kacairns

Grabbed a couple of Zetlight Pro ZP2500H off aQ.LED (Frank) to replace the T5 lighting on the tank, am pleased with the result, not fully setup just getting height/position figured out then to work on schedule of lighting. Here is before and after.

T5 (234w of Giesemann Aquaflora + 78w Actinic)









Zetlight Pro ZP2500H (2x 96w units at full strength)


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## The Fish Man

I like the new lighting - it has the crisp tinge that looks more white than the yellow that T5's have. How are the plants responding? Too early to tell?

I'm looking at changing to LED sometime within the next 3-4 months, as I am just getting my 72G up and running again. My 10 year old Coralife 4x65W CPFL fixture is literally falling apart and now one of the ballasts is making a light flicker. I took it apart today and two wires were so brittle that the wire sheathing crumbled and bare wires were exposed! I have patched it up for now and will turn off the channel with the flickering light/exposed wires and have resurrected an old single 96W fixture to run until I get it together and replace the whole thing with LED.


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## kacairns

Unfortunately I haven't had time to properly setup the LED. I just purchased some 1/4" steel rod to make my brackets for hanging it at the proper height (to get the exposure you see in the picture). I also haven't started to dose fertilizers again due to no time to properly setup! With that said, there is new growth to the plants in the tank over the past few days. I'm hoping to get some time this weekend to setup my auto-dosing of ferts and the LED light at the proper height but we'll see. Also need to do a good cleanup as I've got multiple types of algae from when I went on vacation.

The LED I used is meant for planted tanks, so has a Red/Orange and Green as well, in my opinion so far it is very good for the price and since talking with the makers of the LED it sounds as if they are working on making them so you can control them with Neptune Apex controller as well instead of the built in one. They currently only offer the ZT6600 that will work with the Apex controller and told me they are "working on it"


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## The Fish Man

I've got a DA RKL in my tank for lighting control right now - I think I read you have that on this or another one of your tanks. I'm not really interested in ramp-up/down or other features like that, never found them to be directly useful for plant growth. Just on-off for all lights has been good in my experience - I'm pretty much all-business when it comes to growing the plants; fish pretty much take a back seat too. lol

I'm looking at getting 2 (maybe expand to 3 if necessary) GroBeam 1500 Ultima LED kits for my 72G bowfront and they also make some pretty slick adjustable brackets/rods etc too - check them out at J&L if you haven't seen them. I'm not sure how they will interact with my hood though so I might have to mod or fab something up for them. I like your idea on the steel rod though. Is ceiling suspension with chains/cable not practical for you? That might be the way to go and it is easy to adjust height.

I'm leery on LED still though; still seems unproven for long-term use on plants as it is so new in this area. Although I said the same thing when I was changing from my T12 HO 80w bulbs to CPFL lights. lol It just got to the point where it was hard finding bulbs and they were getting ridiculously expensive. CPFL is getting that way since T5's became all the rage the past while. So my dilemma is going to a T5 fixture which is a technology on the decline or LED which is the new kid on the block, but still in its infancy, improving and becoming more cost effective... When I make the change it will likely be later this year. Getting married in a couple of week so paying for that plus still working on the house we just moved into...it's our first house so having to buy lots of things we never needed while living in a condo. Doh!

So is it a firmware update on the ZP2500H that will make it compatible with the Apex? Or the other way around? I took a look at the ZP2500H before my last post and it looks like a beautiful fixture. I'm curious - does it have a fair amount of heat? Looks like a sizable fan on there. I imagine it would be a lot less than T5's or CPFL at any rate which will aid in temperature fluctuations. In my old condo I ended up using a chiller that I had leftover from an old SW setup I had. Was able to maintain a perfect 79 degrees even on the hottest of days - I lived on the top floor of the building so heat was an issue in that place.


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## The Fish Man

Also you will probably find that your LED lights will have less algae promotion. Actinic lighting induces algae growth because they like the "bluer" lighting; same sort of thing with higher Kelvin lighting that gets into the 14K to 20K range. This is good for SW reef setups but bad for planted tanks. I don't think anybody pointed that out on here yet.


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## aQ.LED

I have heard the same thing from Zetlight's MACNA down in Miami this previous long weekend. They said even the ZP3600 was capable being control by Neptune which I had yet to test it myself. I am planning tho to bring some of the ZT6600 and ZT6500 in also probly buy a controller just to try it out. 
Also point out I think the Aquaray Grobeam 1500 Ultima is about 30W (10x6500K) at max current where each of the ZP2500H is 96W, so that is a huge difference in power output. If you are not doing CO2 or thinking about covering a larger tank, the GroBeam would be a better choice.


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## kacairns

The Fish Man said:


> I've got a DA RKL in my tank for lighting control right now - I think I read you have that on this or another one of your tanks. I'm not really interested in ramp-up/down or other features like that, never found them to be directly useful for plant growth. Just on-off for all lights has been good in my experience - I'm pretty much all-business when it comes to growing the plants; fish pretty much take a back seat too. lol
> 
> I'm looking at getting 2 (maybe expand to 3 if necessary) GroBeam 1500 Ultima LED kits for my 72G bowfront and they also make some pretty slick adjustable brackets/rods etc too - check them out at J&L if you haven't seen them. I'm not sure how they will interact with my hood though so I might have to mod or fab something up for them. I like your idea on the steel rod though. Is ceiling suspension with chains/cable not practical for you? That might be the way to go and it is easy to adjust height.
> 
> I'm leery on LED still though; still seems unproven for long-term use on plants as it is so new in this area. Although I said the same thing when I was changing from my T12 HO 80w bulbs to CPFL lights. lol It just got to the point where it was hard finding bulbs and they were getting ridiculously expensive. CPFL is getting that way since T5's became all the rage the past while. So my dilemma is going to a T5 fixture which is a technology on the decline or LED which is the new kid on the block, but still in its infancy, improving and becoming more cost effective... When I make the change it will likely be later this year. Getting married in a couple of week so paying for that plus still working on the house we just moved into...it's our first house so having to buy lots of things we never needed while living in a condo. Doh!
> 
> So is it a firmware update on the ZP2500H that will make it compatible with the Apex? Or the other way around? I took a look at the ZP2500H before my last post and it looks like a beautiful fixture. I'm curious - does it have a fair amount of heat? Looks like a sizable fan on there. I imagine it would be a lot less than T5's or CPFL at any rate which will aid in temperature fluctuations. In my old condo I ended up using a chiller that I had leftover from an old SW setup I had. Was able to maintain a perfect 79 degrees even on the hottest of days - I lived on the top floor of the building so heat was an issue in that place.
> 
> Also you will probably find that your LED lights will have less algae promotion. Actinic lighting induces algae growth because they like the "bluer" lighting; same sort of thing with higher Kelvin lighting that gets into the 14K to 20K range. This is good for SW reef setups but bad for planted tanks. I don't think anybody pointed that out on here yet.


I had a RKL but I upgraded to Neptune Apex when I wanted to expand to control a 2nd tank as it would be almost as the same expense upgrading the RKL to RKE. Neptune controller is much more advanced and configurable in my opinion.

Ceiling suspension isn't possible for me as I have a custom hood the T5's were in, rather keep it as it keeps some of the nose of the overflows in the tank area as well gives the top of the tank a nice clean look. The zetlight zp2500H come with powder coated rods to begin with but but they only extend out to about 30" total and I'm trying to keep the brackets from blocking the lighting as it goes down in the tank so I just went to homedepot grabbed some steel rods, bent them to a 90 angle and cut them to 6" so they sit at the height I wanted.

I did notice great growth today compared to yesterday on some plants in the tank, of course they are getting closer to the lighting so they should be growing!

As for heat from the Zetlight zp2500h, to me it seems to be a great light, if I was able to hang the light a little higher it would give most likely a full even coverage of the tank, unfortunately having it only 6" above top of the tank to the light leaves the four corners a little dimmer to the naked eye, and partially because the overflows in the tank are blocking some light to the back corners. It appears to be a standard fan on the lighting unit, even having the lighting inside of the hood the temperature reading it showing 35c, mind you I have 3 cooling fans I put in the top of my hood which can be seen here:










Reason for switching to LED from the T5 was 1) cost, the 2 LED fixtures cost me what is equivalent to the cost of replacing all the T5 bulbs twice and.... 2) as you noted algae growth. Unfortunately the discus enjoy having a night light and some of them seem to prefer to eat when the actinic lighting is on, I assume it might be too bright for them up at the surface but who knows. With the actinic lighting being on for extended time, I get extended algae! I have bought some blue LED strip lighting which will also go into the hood to make up for the lack of blue in zp2500h fixtures.



aQ.LED said:


> I have heard the same thing from Zetlight's MACNA down in Miami this previous long weekend. They said even the ZP3600 was capable being control by Neptune which I had yet to test it myself. I am planning tho to bring some of the ZT6600 and ZT6500 in also probly buy a controller just to try it out


Frank, it might be possible to use the apex with the zp2500h, my last communication with zetlight I asked if the reason the zetlight zp2500h couldn't be controlled by the apex controller was due to it using PWM instead of 0-10v for the control or something more complex then that. If its just that it uses PWM, for $35 I can purchase a PWM to 0-10v converter+5v power adapter and solve that problem. They asked me for the serial numbers to the units so they could properly respond to me. Will keep your updated on it =)


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## The Fish Man

lol, I forgot about your hood. It is so nice, you have to keep it and make it work. If you are getting good growth, then maybe you have found the right height. 

I'm not attached to my hood - it is a cheap black plastic one anyway - I can't remember who made it, it just came with the bowfront setup. I may or may not keep it when I get around to getting the new lights. 

Take some pics in a week or two so we can see the difference!


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## kacairns

Longfin Silvertip BNP are turning out to be beautiful, few of them feeding in this video =)


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## kacairns

and.... finally the auto-doser setup and running... KNO3, KH2PO3, K2SO4 is set to dose Sunday, Tuesday, Friday and Plantex CSM+B doses Monday, Wednesday and Saturday. Each fertilizer gets does 3x a day currently 1 hour before lights come on, 2 hours after lights on and 2 hours after that. Each dose being approximately 16ml. Jars were bought at Walmart and hold upto 1.9L, only using 1.5.


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## The Fish Man

Nice setup. I like the "moonshine" jars.


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## kacairns

The Fish Man said:


> Nice setup. I like the "moonshine" jars.


Modified moonshine jars! Wouldn't want to drink what is in these, it wont just feel like its killing you every sip, it actually would!


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## shift

Nice setup! Haha I love all the auto dosers. Was defiantly an inspiring project to build.


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## kacairns

shift said:


> Nice setup! Haha I love all the auto dosers. Was defiantly an inspiring project to build.


Yes it was fun remembering everything! I had fun trouble shooting why pump 1 and pump 3 would run randomly when pump 2 was running, which wasn't happening when I built it months ago! Turned out that when I put the heat sinks on the mosfet's it was causing the above board portions to touch I guess, took them off and slightly bent the mosfets different ways and runs like a charm again.

I have 1 or 2 boards left and enough parts to make a few more minus the dosing pumps so if someone is interested in trying their hand at this without waiting and sourcing out everything except the dosing pumps which is easy feel free to message me =)


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## The Fish Man

That is a nice offer to make to somebody! I wish I had the room under or around my tank to put that together. I'd have to convert my garage to a fish room and my car wouldn't like that at all. lol


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## kacairns

The Fish Man said:


> That is a nice offer to make to somebody! I wish I had the room under or around my tank to put that together. I'd have to convert my garage to a fish room and my car wouldn't like that at all. lol


Cars are replaceable just like wives if they don't like the hobby! =)


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## aQ.LED

Thank god my wife doesn't check bca as often as me lol


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## kacairns

aQ.LED said:


> Thank god my wife doesn't check bca as often as me lol


You got nothing to worry about, your wife likes the hobby! =)


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## crimper

aQ.LED said:


> Thank god my wife doesn't check bca as often as me lol


Dont ever let her browse the forum lol

Nicely done by the way.


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## kacairns

Newest batch of food for the pleco's in the tank. I switched from using Knox Gelatin to Agar Agar as a gelling agent. Only down side is I almost have to get the food to the boiling point which smells wonderful when you factor in its not just vegetables but actual fish food but the gelling capability of Agar is much better then Knox gelatin and actually much cheaper as well! A single 25g package of agar will set over 3litre's of liquid. In fact I used a full package on my first 1.5 litre of food and the brick it made is very hard gel. This makes the pleco's actually have to work to get their food, increasing their appetite as well once they get the taste and not just the smell. I almost have 0 food entering the water column though which is a good plus compared to knox gelatin. The best part though is if I want to ad something to a mixture or screw up I can re-heat and re-gel. My first attempt I didn't fully set everything and forgot a ingredient. No problem, threw it back in the pot, warmed it up again and it all went back to a liquid, added the ingredient, warmed it up properly, poured it back out and within minutes my 1/4" thick sample was set ready for feeding or freezing! 1.5litre of food will make about 125 1/4" x 2sq inch feeding blocks and I feed 1 per day to my main pleco tank and one every 2/3rd day to the other 2 tanks. Enough to feed from 60-100 days for the 3 tanks for around $20 and 45 minutes of time. Next batch I'll decrease the agar until I find proper amount to gel food to my liking.


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## kacairns

So with losing 2 discus due to aggression during mating, they got chased away, scrapped up on the rock and was downhill after that. Dosed the tank with prime and salt to try and help, melted and I've now cut out/ripped out half the plants in the tank....

So, now that I've lost between the two fish $150 I plan on further ripping the tank down and change it into African tank or Salt water. If I go african, what would suggestions be, I want colour and activity in the tank. Same with salt =)


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## Diztrbd1

You should probably start a separate thread with that question Kevin. Im sure you would get alot more views and responses.


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## Luke78

Kevin, that food reminds of a chocolate fudge cake Those BNP sure have put on some size, looking good! Sorry to hear about your losses, you 100% on the change from FW to African or SW?


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## kacairns

Diztrbd1 said:


> You should probably start a separate thread with that question Kevin. Im sure you would get alot more views and responses.


Telling me on the phone wasn't enough prior to posting! Remember the 1/10th rule! =)



Luke78 said:


> Kevin, that food reminds of a chocolate fudge cake Those BNP sure have put on some size, looking good! Sorry to hear about your losses, you 100% on the change from FW to African or SW?


I assure you based on smell it doesn't taste anywhere near chocolate fudge cake, mmmmmm fudge..... mmmmm cake making me hungry now! I'm looking at my options, I like fresh water, but options for colour/filling up a 180g tank just don't seem to be there. That is why I wanted the discus with the cardinals to begin with because its beautiful, but when you lose $150 worth of stock between 2 fish, it takes away the drive, I know its my own fault for having the jagged rocks in there but everything was completely fine until the breeding started and fish have trouble recovering from 3" or larger gashes from jagged rocks, especially a sensitive fish as discus. I liked having a planted tank, gave fish places to hide, gave red/green colours to the tank and purple at one time too, so the fish didn't have to stand out as much but, a 180g planted tank can be a full time job at one point I was doing pruning every 3 days just to keep things in check. I like the thought of Africans as there can have some great colours to them, are active and even a small amount of them can make a 180g look good. I like salt water of course for the variety of colours and different options you can have, big down side is the the cost to upgrade which after talking to Anthony will probably be around $1000 or more, but I would have equipment/substrate and so on I could sell to offset that some.

I'm torn on what to do, which is why I was putting the question up, if you have any suggestions Luke, I'd value your input =)


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## Diztrbd1

Ha haaaaa I must have accidentally hit the enter button when I got up to go to the tank. Had just finished typing when you called lol


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## aQ.LED

if u switch to salt can always choose to do the trade in for salt water fixtures =p


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## kacairns

aQ.LED said:


> if u switch to salt can always choose to do the trade in for salt water fixtures =p


If I went salt, I'd probably keep one for the 50g tank and sell the other most likely. Go DIY LED most likely, Anthony's build I had read many times and looks wonderful just need to spend some time on it =)


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## Luke78

I'd probably go with a SW setup as my first choice,second all pleco setup with a few other SA additions, third African setup.All depends on how much those pockets or wallet wanna open


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## crimper

Luke78 said:


> I'd probably go with a SW setup as my first choice,second all pleco setup with a few other SA additions, third African setup.All depends on how much those pockets or wallet wanna open


I'd say get your hands/feet wet with a SW tank. You can have a simple setup (skimmerless, sumpless, no dosing... etc.) without breaking your wallet. Start with a 10G tank if that's what you can afford, I started with 20G and now I have converted my 57G planted tank. 

It will be expensive if you chose to be on the expesive route. Most people put high tech gadgets with all the bells and whistles in their tank that's where it becomes expensive. This kind of setup have been done numerous times, just google skimmerless reef.

Hope to see you on the other side soon. :bigsmile:


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## kacairns

Tank is nearing shut down! All the discus, cardinal tetra have all been sold. Some how I managed to have 60 or so cardinal tetras go missing, or should I say the discus ate them! I thought I was feeding them enough to keep them happy and the cardinals were rather smart and stayed away, guess I was wrong!

Now only if it was boxing day today so I could get what I need to run this 180g tank as SW!


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## kacairns

Tank is officially empty now! Although still has water in it, and pumps going as trying to see if I can sell the sump while its live before I kill all the bacteria by shutting it down. Scooped out the gravel the other day and last night siphoned out all the remaining gravel that I couldn't scoop out easily. That wasn't easy on the 6ft x 2ft tank!

Will start new tank thread when I'm getting up and running with the salt water =)


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