# Starting a 90G FOWLR



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

Hi Folks,

I want to venture into the world of Saltwater. So I thought of starting with a 90G Fowlr.

I've been reading here n there and thought I would ask for some advice from the pros!

Here is the plan (not set in stone):

Tank - 90 Gallon. Its used so I need to clean it. Should I just give it a good scrub or a vinegar bath is necessary? The tank has that slight film or salt residue on the glass... I hope that'll go away when I set it up. 

















Lighting - I have a 2 bulb coralife T5HO light. I think this will be enough or more than enough for the FOWLR. Maybe even enough for really basic small corals if I do plan on going that route in the future?

















Live Rock - I've got about 40lbs of used live rock form a person off craigslist. It seems to be in good condition. I don't know if its still live or not, he kept it in water the whole time after shutting down his tank in summer. I'll post pictures of it in a day or two.

Sand bed / Live Sand - Have no idea about this. Can I use PFS for this purpose? or is it too light to just be swimming in the water column because of the water flow needed in a SW tank. If I can't use PFS, whats the next best/cost effective method? I plan on keeping a shallow sand bed due to the fact that deep sand beds can trap deadly gases.

Filteration (Sump) - I plan on making a DIY sump out of a 20 or a 30 gallon tank. Would stick to 20 if that'll suffice as It'll give me more storage space in the stand. I have never done plumbing or anything like that so this will be an interesting and educating experience for myself... one of the reasons why I love this hobby so much! I've looked at some sump designs and here is a pic of what I'm thinking I should do for my setup. I saw this pic on another forum. 

















Water Drain and Return - My tank is a regular tank and has no holes for return line or drain. I'm wondering if I can drill the bottom glass of the tank to feed a return through it or will that just shatter my tank. Also I want to drill the back to install a bulkhead for the return. There is a warning sticker on my tank saying "DO NOT DRILL THE GLASS ENCLOSURE". It doesn't say that the bottom is tampered and will shatter if drilled like I've seen on some tanks.

Is it just better for me to use an overflow box? I prefer the cleaner look of the drilled tank though!

Protien Skimmer - I plan on buying a good protein skimmer and I want to take advantage of the boxing day sales for that if possible. I have no idea whats good and what would be ample for my tank keeping in mind that I may do a reef in the future.

Circulation and Heating - I have a hydor Korilia 4 that I want to use for circulation. I think it does 750GPH, will I need any thing else to ensure I have enough circulation or this will do?

I plan on buying two 200 watt heaters that'll fit in the refugium area of the sump.

Maintenance Requirements - I plan on doing weekly 50% water changed apart from what I'll need to do initially to get the tank properly cycled.

I'm also wondering about the time commitment for a saltwater tank. I've heard that they can be a lot of work and require too much time. how true is that? I plan on taking it slow, doing the right things in the first place so I don't have to pay up later. Would I need to be working EVERYDAY on my saltwater tank? I know there is a lot of dosing and stuff involved with reefs so I can see that happening but would a FOWLR need that much time as well?

Time Line - I plan on getting all my plans worked out by this weekend as to what I'm actually going to do so I can go shopping on boxing day .

I want to get the plumbing done and the system drilled (if chose that route) by the new year and have everything up and running ready to be cycled in the first week of Jan.

I want to give it a month to cycle and get ready. I plan on starting to add live stock little by little in February given the tank is properly cycled by then.

I think I've covered and considered everything pretty much. I still need to do a lot more reading I think but I thought of starting a thread now that I have some idea of what I want to do. Your help and advice on these questions is much appreciated. I hope I'm not bothering you guys with too many questions!! 

Thanks,

Zee.


----------



## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Careful with the drilling and heed the warning labels if there is one. Some tank are built with all tempered class - not just the bottom. I had a 55g like that, the glass is noticeably thinner than the non-tempered.

Check out Post #2 of the link below:

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/equipment-talk-section-14/drilling-hagen-rimless-tank-20740/

With sump, I would go as big as you could. You will realize quickly how small a 20g is. Also need to factor in reserve for overflow when power fail.

Return for excess branch is not necessary but you will need a valve to control flow to the display tank anyway. A T-off also provide supply for future additional accessories like media chamber. If you are using only 1 valve, make sure that it is on the branch leg. Water will flow where there is least resistance. You are essentially trying to bleed off excess with the branch. Best is to have valves on both branch - additional $5 - $10 for far better control.


----------



## target (Apr 21, 2010)

My 90g had that sticker on the bottom as well. I drilled the back without issue, but had no need to drill the bottom.


----------



## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Most tanks are able to drill the sides, what is the make of the tank? Perfecto, aga, and Hagen are ok to drill the sides.

As for flow you will mostlikely be looking at 3-4 powerheads in a 90g If youre planning on using koralias.

With the live rock in your display it will definitely slow down the flow and you need good flow to make sure the live rock is able to filter the tank so basically 1 powerhead for every corner.

If you know you're going to do saltwater, I would grab extra bulbs, salt, substrate and equiptment. Powerheads, heaters etc. Return pump a quiet one 3000 is good enough and plenty of turnover. Boxing day at Jl to save on tax!!

Also when you cycle your tank best to put all the live rock in at once so you're not cycling your tank for half a year adding bits here and there.

As for a sump I would go with no less than 1/3 the display, in your case a 33g. Bigger is definitely better but space is an issue always stick with 1/3rd.

For a sump I like to go with 3 chambers, no need for bioballs in this set up as I am sure you will end up with some corals down the road!
1st chamber overflow from tank and skimmer, 2nd chamber refuge and debubbling and last of all 3rd chamber return to display.

I have built many sumps in my 12yrs of reef keeping, no I am not a pro but you'd be surprised at how much glass baffles can cost when using 6 partitions.
My new simple design uses 2 glass baffles and this method has proven great success because it is not only effective but at the same time no micro bubbles in the display which could make or break a display tank!

Lastly you can use sugar sand but I prefer to use something alittle heavier like aragonite, 2 bags should be enough to lightly cover the bottom and will make gravel cleaning a breeze, in a fowler you will want to gravel clean for sure.

50% waterchanges monthly is good or 20% weekly or bi weekly is better!


----------



## pinkreef (Aug 18, 2011)

you might want live rock rubble in place of the bio-balls, it will all help to keep 
your tank clean.


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

gklaw said:


> Careful with the drilling and heed the warning labels if there is one. Some tank are built with all tempered class - not just the bottom. I had a 55g like that, the glass is noticeably thinner than the non-tempered.
> 
> Check out Post #2 of the link below:
> 
> ...


I'm still shaky about the drilling part on my tank. I'm almost leaning towards selling this tank and buying a reef ready one just so I don't have to worry about the drilling part and the stability of the tank.

I've found a 40Gallon used tank for cheap that I plan on using as sump. I think thats the biggest I could fit in my stand at this time.

I agree with having two valves and I won't have the excess branch on my design. This pic is just a copy from another thread to give you an idea of what I was thinking.... I haven't had much time in the past couple of days, now I'll have a bit of time so I can make my own images to share what I'm planning on doing.


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

target said:


> My 90g had that sticker on the bottom as well. I drilled the back without issue, but had no need to drill the bottom.


I've talked to a couple of people and heard mixed opinions about drilling. M concern is the stability of the tank after being drilled. Could there be a possibility of a hairline crack that I may not be able to see which might cause a problem later?


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Some may not be jazzed over my comments on this one but here we go.
FOWLR scare the hell out of me and here is why.

I am taking a break from Boxing week prep so I did not read this thread completely but my comments are based on the idea of FOWLR itself.

I personally set up a FOWLR set up back in the 80's believe it or not and although the premise of having natural surroundings etc. is good, there are some negatives to this type of set up. Typically in a reef system the fish stock is low, kind of like planted aquariums. Fish only systems tend to have more fish by comparison. In general you can not medicate an aquarium with live rock, yes I am aware that there are new meds available that are "reef safe" but they have very mixed reviews on their effectiveness. 
If or rather "when" you have a disease or parasitic issue in a FOWLR it is very difficult to effectively medicate. Quarantine tends to be the obvious choice, if you can catch the infected fish without scaring the hell out of all the other inhabitants.
UV is a good front line of defense but by no means will prevent all outbreaks. My suggestion would be to use artificial rock work or something along those lines and avoid live rock. Most effective meds will kill a lot of organisms on the rock invisible to the naked eye and send a FOWLR into a death spiral.
Those are my 2 cents. Feel free to digest and if needed I can expand on any point made.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

As far as drilling goes, looks like an All Glass tank, likely just the bottom is tempered, usually a label on the bottom regarding this.


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

tang daddy said:


> Most tanks are able to drill the sides, what is the make of the tank? Perfecto, aga, and Hagen are ok to drill the sides.
> 
> As for flow you will mostlikely be looking at 3-4 powerheads in a 90g If youre planning on using koralias.
> 
> ...


There is no brand name written on my tank... I know its from King Eds, thats what the person told me when I bought it from him.

I'll check out the pumps tomorrow. Hoping to score a good deal on all these items.

I found a 40G sump tank already. Now I'm looking to have the baffles done and then the sump should be ready to go!

I'll see if I can find some Aragonite at a good price tomorrow to get the substrate done and out of the way.

I'm very confused about the skimmer. I have no idea what to buy, I've been looking at some of them and will share some links in the next post. I hope some of you guys can give me some pointers in which direction I should go.

Thanks for all your input


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

pinkreef said:


> you might want live rock rubble in place of the bio-balls, it will all help to keep
> your tank clean.


yep thats the plan.. sorry the image i copied from another forum is a little misleading as to what I want to do. I'll post an updated one soon!


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Some may not be jazzed over my comments on this one but here we go.
> FOWLR scare the hell out of me and here is why.
> 
> I am taking a break from Boxing week prep so I did not read this thread completely but my comments are based on the idea of FOWLR itself.
> ...


You bring up a very good point! I'd want a little more information regarding your point.

the problem that you're referring to, can it be kept out of the tank by ensuring I don't over stock the tank? I know SW fish is very expensive so I won't be keeping too many anyways, but I'd sure want to know more in detail about the issue you bring up.

Also people who keep reef tanks, have LR in them, don't they ever have problems with sick fish in their tanks? Is quarantine the ONLY way of treating sick fish in SW setups with LR?


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Generally speaking, fish stock in the average reef aquarium is low and fish are basically left to their own immune systems to defend against ailments. Proper water quality, nutrition etc play a part and usually fish are of a smaller size on average.
Your odds of illness are reduced with lower stock numbers yes, that could be said of any aquarium. The concern is that you should have a reliable defense against illness that will likely arise at some point, particularly if one does not quarantine before introducing fish to their display. I would say few do, over 20 years and I never did at home. Also you are a beginner at the salt water thing, better safe then sorry. As mentioned on my previous email, there are "meds" available for reefs but dont have a lot of success generally.


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Generally speaking, fish stock in the average reef aquarium is low and fish are basically left to their own immune systems to defend against ailments. Proper water quality, nutrition etc play a part and usually fish are of a smaller size on average.
> Your odds of illness are reduced with lower stock numbers yes, that could be said of any aquarium. The concern is that you should have a reliable defense against illness that will likely arise at some point, particularly if one does not quarantine before introducing fish to their display. I would say few do, over 20 years and I never did at home. Also you are a beginner at the salt water thing, better safe then sorry. As mentioned on my previous email, there are "meds" available for reefs but dont have a lot of success generally.


So your recommendation is to not do FOWLR? or do it with limited stock and follow the rules like quarantine the new fish and keep up with water changes.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

As a beginner, yes. I would create a more sterile environment with the freedom to medicate. IMO once you have experience with it, you could try adding LR if you wish to. Or, try it with low stock and maintain high water quality and install a UV for sure. I feel option A is better for you but up to you. I am sure others will jump in shortly with their experiences as well.


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

hmm... I should keep this in mind before actually setting up my tank. The only issue is that I've already purchased about 100lbs of LR


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

That is an issue.....


----------



## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Grant has some good points, very few people quarantine fish. It is a good practise and definately pays off in the long run.

If you have purchased the liverock I wouldnt sweat it. 

In your case I would use the liverock. Get a list of fish you think you want to get and do your due diligence!

Also list the fish here and me or the other more seasoned reefers can give you our input on the fish and if it's compatible for your fowler.

For a skimmer I would be looking at a vertex, super reef octopus, euroreef, ask and whatever else available. The ones I listed are pretty entry level and shouldn't break the bank, you may be able to find one used aswell to save alittle more. When you build your sump I would leave the first chamber atleast 14-16" as most skimmer foot prints are around that, the second chamber can be 8-12" and the return chamber can be 4-6".

Good luck!


----------



## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Hmmm this has been informative for me ( just starting SW ) aswell.


----------



## zhasan (Oct 28, 2010)

Okay, so after my trip to JL yesterday I learned about phosphates which I had somehow missed on my research on keeping SW FOWLR. So, I need to have a RO/DI unit to keep that problem at bay... on the other hand Skimmer and other equipment are adding up to be quiet a bit more than I thought I would have to dish out in the beginning. So It seems that I'll have to take things a little slower than I thought. Also I'm still skeptical of drilling the tank and I've decided to go with a predrilled reef ready tank which I need before anything else. It'll give me peace of mind and of course a cleaner look! 

Need to save up a little bit more and then jump in or pick up things here n there and then start. Or maybe If I can pick up a running setup that someone is willing to unload then I might just do that and upgrade whatever I feel necessary. 

I want to thank everyone for their help and support so far! All the information has been very helpful and will be very beneficial once I actually start my setup. In the meantime, I'll just have to continue doing more research and work on my action plan to make sure I cover all points and not go down the death spiral of SW Grant was talking about. 

I'll keep you guys posted on the progress of my SW endeavour!


----------



## target (Apr 21, 2010)

zhasan said:


> I've talked to a couple of people and heard mixed opinions about drilling. M concern is the stability of the tank after being drilled. Could there be a possibility of a hairline crack that I may not be able to see which might cause a problem later?


Mine has been running for over a year since it was drilled and no issues. The glass on a 90 is fairly thick as well. I guess a crack is a possibility but I think it would be remote.


----------



## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

When working with brittle material in general, crack will develop at edges that are not smooth. The diamond core drill will actually polish smooth the cut edge as it go through the glass. So if you take your time and allow the diamond core drill to do its work, there is little concern with subsequent cracking.


----------

