# Hybrid Fish Ethics



## WrasseMan (Jun 30, 2011)

Feel free to jump in with your opinions anytime here, people.

So from what I understand the main objection to breeding hybrid fish that is raised by fishkeepers is that the offspring that look like one parent species or the other might be sold as "purebred" fish. Then the gene pool of that species in captivity will be forever muddled.

Here's what I've been musing:

1. With the exception of a few species of fish (i.e. red-tailed sharks), none of the fish we keep I can think of are endangered/extinct in the wild. Feel free to correct me here!

2. I believe I remember reading on I think the Practical Fishkeeping website that a new study showed (maybe with just one species, I can't remember) that hatchery fish had a poor survival rate once released into the wild.

3. Probably even our wild-type captive bred fish, after a few generations, to some degree, are domesticated. They have adapted to living in our water conditions, eating the foods we feed them, and having giants stick their gigantic faces up to the glass and peer at them every day. I honestly don't know if they'd survive in the wild again. At least, have a high survival rate.

4. Aquariums, as hard as we sometimes might want them to be, are not nature. They are imitations, facsimiles, if you like, of it.

So, even if the gene pool gets muddled slightly, if it looks like a convict, and it swims like a convict, and it is a terror at breeding time like a convict, then what's so bad about it having a drop of, say, firemouth blood? All we're doing here is trying to present something that _looks_ like nature, and in some cases not even that.

This isn't necessarily what I believe, I was just fish philosophising in my head today .


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

people who sell hybrid fish and claim them to be pure are the reason that hybrids have a bad name , I LOVE HYBRIDS i have like every weirdo combo i can think of , I breed them and x breed them to create something that isnt in nature and I do this to generate something no one else has or at least a limited number of people have


I dont really know where your post was going here but if your looking for approval to start breeding hybrids my personal take on it is DO IT hybrids rock man , and you never know what your gonna get these cichlids from sa/ca are so ready tro cross breed i am actually quite surprised there isnt more of it in the wild , i have actually had a jag that chose a jag x con over a full jag for a mate so i dunno but hybrids rock , i have lots lol if your looking for a starter kit lemme know


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

My personal preference is towards wild-type fish over hybrids.

As you mention, there is a danger of any fish in captivity becoming domesticated. I keep and breed a critically endangered fish (Zoogonticus tequila). There was, last I checked around, one tiny wild population left, located in a stream scheduled to become a parking lot for an amusement park. Most members of the Goodeid Family are endangered, critically endangered or extinct in the wild. All, by the way, because of habitat destruction and pollution.

Those of us in who keep goodieds in Canada and the US strive to prevent the creation of 'aquarium strain' fish. That is, we mix up the genes as much as possible to prevent the highlighting and establishment of any particular variation (say a light-colour morph, or one with enhanced tail makings). We trade off-spring via formal or informal networks, keeping track of who gets what. One single unidentified fish getting into someones collection can mean that the entire collection loses its breeder-stock value and is relabeled 'aquarium strain goodeid'.

With a lesser degree of gravitas many of us treat Heterandria formosa, a common livebearer from the south eastern US, the same way. While by no means endangered, access to wild populations is not guaranteed, so to ensure we have a wild type fish available in captivity in perpetuity we work at keeping the gene pool mixed.

While both species will inevitablly become somewhat domesticised, with this treatment they will remain viable for rerelase into the wild into the foreseeable future.

I also breed two species of killie. Killies are a fascinating study, especially from an evolutionary perspective. Killies show an amazing range of variation within species in part because killies don't travel much, so local populations change over time. Check out this page showing photos of over 30 variations of *one* species.

The problem with hybridizing are many, not the least is that we insist on changing species before we _know_ anything much about them (like the bristlenose catfish, a true aquatic mash-up). It's not just how they look, but how they act and what we can learn from that behaviour. One thing to consider is: once you mix it up, you can't unmix it. White Cloud Mountain Minnows are extinct in the wild. They came from cool-temperature streams from the mountains around Hong Kong. In captivity, they've become so modified that there's really no way to know for sure what they actualy looked like or how they behaved. Our chance to study them is gone.

More and more common aquarium fish _are_ becoming endangered or critical. The Belo Monte dam in Brazil is expected to wipe out _40+ species_ of fish, which includes some of the plecos we all love so much. Oil extraction in Africa and hydo-electric projects in China are doing similar damage to fish species. And sometimes borders just close for political reasons and, well, access denied. You can not take for granted that your access to common aquarium fish will continue. Hybridizing everything the way we've messed up endlers and guppies robs ourselves of future insight, enjoyment and variety.


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## WrasseMan (Jun 30, 2011)

No macframalama, I just wanted to hear other people weigh in on the issue, just as an intellectual exercise. Fishy philosophy, if you like. I wasn't looking for reassurance.
Ursus sapien: good points. If only we had a quick and cheap way to DNA test breeder fish to see if they're pure. Then the hybrid people and the "purebred" people would be happy. Maybe one day... .


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

In my opinion as long as they are tracked and everybody who keeps them knows they are hybrids then there is no problem. It's only when it gets to the point of Red Devils/Midas where the only way you can be sure to get the actual species is to get a wild caught from a reputable source...


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

How do we know that some of the fish that we keep were fertile hybrids at one point in time?


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

WrasseMan, there's a good general discussion on this topic here; another as it applies to ring species here; and a third regarding bristlenoses here.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

+1 to that , that family of fishes is so tainted without dna who knows what your working with


Momobobo said:


> In my opinion as long as they are tracked and everybody who keeps them knows they are hybrids then there is no problem. It's only when it gets to the point of Red Devils/Midas where the only way you can be sure to get the actual species is to get a wild caught from a reputable source...


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

Lamplighter said:


> How do we know that some of the fish that we keep were fertile hybrids at one point in time?


most hybrid fish ARE fertile with the exception of most male blood parrots<but not all> and some flowerhorns,kkp's, and a few others, but most hybrids i can think of breed quite easily if not easier than there full blood counter parts


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## WrasseMan (Jun 30, 2011)

Ursus sapien: thank you!


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

Every fish in the world is a hybrid if one accepts evolution.


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## IceBlue (Mar 17, 2011)

My opinion only.

Evolution is not the same as hybridization.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

Lamplighter said:


> Every fish in the world is a hybrid if one accepts evolution.


I disagree... Evolution is when a single species evolves and adapts to changing conditions around it; hybridization is when two species, which are often related, cross breed to produce a new species that often resembles both parent species, but is not exactly the same as either.

For example: Foxes with thicker furs appearing more and more often than foxes with thinner furs because the climate is getting colder is evolution.
A mule, the result when a male donkey and a female horse breed is hybridization.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

Lamplighter said:


> Every fish in the world is a hybrid if one accepts evolution.


Evolution=\=Hybridization

Evolution works on genetic mutations that work to the organisms advantage to allow it a higher chance of survival giving it a more likely chance to pass on its strong genes. 
While it COULD do with hybridization, the majority of hybrids are infertile (due to conflicting chromosomes, etc), have shorter lifespan, and defects.


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