# Altum Angels



## Fishman21 (Apr 26, 2010)

I have seen Altum angels imported from time too time, but never see anybody reselling these fish. 

Is there anybody out there that has successfully kept them for an extended period?


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Try giraffee a member here. He was just here last night picking up some jumbo rummynose to go along his 5 out of 6 altum angels from me.

Perhaps Bizbomb also has a few.

KingEd also has 9 of them for the longest time there. I heard they are keeping them instead of selling them.


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## Fishman21 (Apr 26, 2010)

King Ed had 3 very sick Altums left - i was there yesterday and i would be surprised if they survive another day or 2

thanks, i will contact he others and see what their experience is


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

_The Altums are still alive at King Eds...don't look sickly but stuck in a tank that is only as tall as they are._ 

My bad, didnt notice them. Didnt think those adults looked altum eithier

I imagine most people would keep their altums


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## Fishman21 (Apr 26, 2010)

I was referring to the 3 altum babies in the discus rack of tanks. I didn't think the other large WC angels were altums


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

i saw them today they are horrible . All there fins are gone . They will be dead by morning.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

bonsai dave said:


> i saw them today they are horrible . All there fins are gone . They will be dead by morning.


And that's why u never buy any wild caught angels, altum or scalare, that are under 2.5 inches or so; they don't ship well, and most won't survive the trip. The ones that do won't last more than a few weeks. Take pj's Richmond for example, their so called "wild caught" scalars are most likely tank raised, and probably not F1s either. Wild caughts at that size are near impossible, and would DEFINITELY cost more than 7 bucks each.


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## Bien Lim (Apr 21, 2010)

they were doing good the first week but some how they started having some fin rot and that was it, there were some left around 3 or 4 which that looks healthy but the fins are all gone



charles said:


> Try giraffee a member here. He was just here last night picking up some jumbo rummynose to go along his 5 out of 6 altum angels from me.
> 
> Perhaps Bizbomb also has a few.
> 
> KingEd also has 9 of them for the longest time there. I heard they are keeping them instead of selling them.


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## FishFreaks (May 15, 2011)

i also saw those angels at pj's and laughed when i saw it said wild (as i know that would be so rare at that size and price) and asked where they imported them from and they couldnt say....i would say because their tank raised


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## Hi Im Mike (Sep 11, 2011)

What's the difference between tank raised and wild caught autum may I ask?
Do they look different if they are wild caught or...?


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> And that's why u never buy any wild caught angels, altum or scalare, that are under 2.5 inches or so; they don't ship well, and most won't survive the trip. The ones that do won't last more than a few weeks. Take pj's Richmond for example, their so called "wild caught" scalars are most likely tank raised, and probably not F1s either. Wild caughts at that size are near impossible, and would DEFINITELY cost more than 7 bucks each.


Why is that? James in Rainforest used to bring in dime size altum angels. He had many good shipment at dime and nickle size. Scalare angel is even stronger than altum angel. Angels in the wild are collected in many different sizes from dime to 4".

Where do you think dime size altum angel comes from? They don't breed in tank. There are only hand full of cases where people accidently breed them.



FishFreaks said:


> i also saw those angels at pj's and laughed when i saw it said wild (as i know that would be so rare at that size and price) and asked where they imported them from and they couldnt say....i would say because their tank raised


Did you ask the manager? I know the manager from the fish department. They actually order fish from another supplier (not myself) and they are pretty good with their fish. The employee will only see the name of the fish and which Canadian importer they ordering from. They will not be able to tell you anything else.

If they are true scalare angel, they are most likely wild.



Hi Im Mike said:


> What's the difference between tank raised and wild caught autum may I ask?
> Do they look different if they are wild caught or...?


I personally haven't seen any tank raise altum. There was some guy who claims he has tanks full of different size altum from dime to adult. But never show a video or photo when the parents are laying eggs or raising babies. Altum angel is such a hard animal to spawn in tank raise environment, you would if someone is so successfully breeding them, with hundreds of them, there will be a photo or video of his own.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> And that's why u never buy any wild caught angels, altum or scalare, that are under 2.5 inches or so; they don't ship well, and most won't survive the trip. The ones that do won't last more than a few weeks. Take pj's Richmond for example, their so called "wild caught" scalars are most likely tank raised, and probably not F1s either. Wild caughts at that size are near impossible, and would DEFINITELY cost more than 7 bucks each.


I don't think this statement is accurate at all.

Re: wild caught angels - most won't survive the trip - I have seen tanks full of wild caught altums and wild caught scalares in stores in Vancouver. , the day after they have arrived. They were healthy and eating right away

Those that survive won't last more than a week - I have gotten small altum and scalare angels at under 2.5 inches and raised them to adults. Check Kevin's thread on BCA for his tank full of Altums. Also, Aquariums West has adult altums for sale occasionally(trade in's) and if you go to King Ed in the plant display tank by where they pack the fish, there are a few jumbo wild caught angels that have survived King Ed for a few years(and that's saying something).

IMO, as with all wild fish, the key is very regular water changes and making sure the fish are dewormed

I would love to hear your back up for why you think that most wild caught angels don't survive the trip and that if they do, they won't last more than a week


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

Joseph,

Well said,i guess some of the people here havent had any success with any wild caught stock?So quick to assume they are difficult to look after,breed,feed,etc! Iam also interested to see what is said next as well!



josephl said:


> I don't think this statement is accurate at all.
> 
> Re: wild caught angels - most won't survive the trip - I have seen tanks full of wild caught altums and wild caught scalares in stores in Vancouver. , the day after they have arrived. They were healthy and eating right away
> 
> ...


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

Luke78 said:


> Joseph,
> 
> Well said,i guess some of the people here havent had any success with any wild caught stock?So quick to assume they are difficult to look after,breed,feed,etc! Iam also interested to see what is said next as well!


Thanks Luke.

Why I wanted to respond here was that not having success with wild caught stock is one thing and I can see that happening as throwing a wild Altum into a community tank is a bit of a receipe for disaster, as is trying to feed a wild Altum flake food initially or only doing weekly water changes. That's a personal thing.

I was challenging the statement that all small wild caught discus have a high shipping mortality rate and those that make it also perish once purchased. That would be contrary to anything I have seen and read and experienced personally and contrary to basic business sense. If the mortality rates were so high for a dealer bringing in small wild Altums, business sense would dictate that they will stop doing it, yet, in season, there are quite a few for sale locally, on Simply and through other on-line sources.


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

Joseph,

No problem,i see and hear where your coming from.Should of added more to my comment,but a few responses so far have said what i would have written myself.



josephl said:


> Thanks Luke.
> 
> Why I wanted to respond here was that not having success with wild caught stock is one thing and I can see that happening as throwing a wild Altum into a community tank is a bit of a receipe for disaster, as is trying to feed a wild Altum flake food initially or only doing weekly water changes. That's a personal thing.
> 
> I was challenging the statement that all small wild caught discus have a high shipping mortality rate and those that make it also perish once purchased. That would be contrary to anything I have seen and read and experienced personally and contrary to basic business sense. If the mortality rates were so high for a dealer bringing in small wild Altums, business sense would dictate that they will stop doing it, yet, in season, there are quite a few for sale locally, on Simply and through other on-line sources.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

Contrary to what YOU've seen and read, but true to what I'VE seen. So ya.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> Contrary to what YOU've seen and read, but true to what I'VE seen. So ya.


just so how many orders of wild angels scalare and altum have you seen? And how long have you seen them in front of tanks, hours, days, weeks? I am just curious so how you draw that conclusion.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> Contrary to what YOU've seen and read, but true to what I'VE seen. So ya.


I don't think that's what Josephl is saying. He's speaking from personal experience. I've seen his Altums. Can you relate your personal experience with Altums? First hand information, good or bad, is always enlightening.


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

Charles/Gary et all,

Dont waste your time responding,just look at the last written comment from this individual and draw your answer(s) from that.This topic is gonna go sideways soon, and most likely be closed.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

I've only seen 10-15 orders of wild angels, most of them at the local PJ's, so perhaps my knowledge is a little limited, but I see them come in one day, and 3-4 days later they're either dead or dying.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

and that is supposed to tell the quality of the fish, but not the open system of how the fish is keeping?

If what you saying is true, 10-15 orders and all happen, I am sure the manage will stop ordering fish that continue to die and drop that selection. And 10-15 orders, I would say that this is more how the fish is being kept but not the fish itself.

Would you not agree?


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> Contrary to what YOU've seen and read, but true to what I'VE seen. So ya.


I would love to hear about where specifically you have seen (1) dealers unpacking Altums as they arrive so you could witness the high mortality rate that you claim to have observed - I only know of 3 places in Vancouver that Altums have been available in the last 5 years and (2) dealers unpacking wild scalares so you could witness the high mortality rate that you have claimed to have seen - I only know of 2 places in Vancouver that have imported wild scalares over the last 5 years.

I would also specifically like to hear your back up as to where you have observed that the few wild altums and scalares that actually arrive alive then perish in the next 2 weeks. I find it hard to believe this claim as it alludes to your knowing everyone who has bought wild altums and scalares and knowing that all of the fish perished within 2 weeks

I don't think these requests would be unreasonable, nor would it be hard for you to provide this information as you state (and I quote above) that this is what you have seen


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

Charles: fair enough, I suppose a chain store is a bad place for basing any opinion.

Joseph: As mentioned before, what I know comes mostly from my local PJ's, and I have seen them unpack "wild" scalares. I don't think I mentioned seeing altums, I assumed that since altums are more delicate, the same would apply. And I never said I saw people buy them either.

Luke: calm down... I'm only human; I make mistakes, you don't have to chew my head off for it...

All in all, I suppose further research was required, so I'll admit that my first post had quite a few falacies, and that I was wrong.


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

I like your recent "edit"! For starters, if you go back a page you were asked by a few of us to clarify your information further from your first posting,You didnt!
You then proceeded with a second comment which just proved to everyone who wrote in or saw this post, that you couldnt back up your information. So how does that help you out ? I then wrote my part informing others not to waste their time or efforts trying to reason with you.You played your hand, and lost! Enough said! Keep in mind lots of people visit these forums,and information and what not are exchanged all the time!People are looking for HONEST,RELIABLE,ACCURATE(most of the time) facts,stats,and info hence why You,I and Everyone else is here! Calm down? You will never meet such an easy going person like myself! Just ask those here who have meet me!



BelieveInBlue said:


> Charles: fair enough, I suppose a chain store is a bad place for basing any opinion.
> 
> Joseph: As mentioned before, what I know comes mostly from my local PJ's, and I have seen them unpack "wild" scalares. I don't think I mentioned seeing altums, I assumed that since altums are more delicate, the same would apply. And I never said I saw people buy them either.
> 
> ...


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

The only person. I know of that breeds altums is a fellow named Tony tan. Here are a few links to his fish for sale.

Tony Tan's Altum Angels - Page 7 - BIDKA - The British and International Discus Keepers Association
Tony Tan F-1 Altum Video Peveiw

Altum - YouTube


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Dave, was that the thread about rather the altum is true or not? 

I am not expert in it. But I suggest people read through it to draw your own conclusion.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> Charles: fair enough, I suppose a chain store is a bad place for basing any opinion.
> 
> Joseph: As mentioned before, what I know comes mostly from my local PJ's, and I have seen them unpack "wild" scalares. I don't think I mentioned seeing altums, I assumed that since altums are more delicate, the same would apply. And I never said I saw people buy them either.
> 
> ...


I'm still confused. In post #7, you state that any Altums and Scalares that make it alive don't last 2 weeks. In post # 16, you say that despite what my experience, you have seen that their is a high mortality rate for the fish that actually arrive alive and that they don't last 2 weeks and then above, you say that you never saw people buy them so I'm confused, how do you know that they don't survive the 2 weeks?

Also, I understand that you are employed at IPU Richmond? You might want to talk to Grant about the survival rate of imported wild Angels as he had some beauties in there last year and they sure looked like they survived more than 2 weeks unless he was replacing them with new fish weekly as the old one's died...I've known Grant for a long time and I just don't see him doing that. He's much too professional and cares too much about the well being of fish


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

Don't survive 2 weeks as in die in the store before they're purchased? And I already said that what I said before was based on what I saw at my local PJ's....


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi guys! Vira here.... The main altum keeper is my husband, that's who Charles was referring to. But I can definitely say that we now have 5 healthy beautiful, always hungry altum angels, with fins, tails etc all in good condition. We've had them for about 2 months now - correct me if I'm wrong Charles. Way to success - 50% daily water changes. Perhaps, if hubby feels like it he will pitch in on the discussion later. But for now, trust me - wild caught angels are thriving in our aquarium.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

thank you. I really appreciate you can shine some light on this matter.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> Don't survive 2 weeks as in die in the store before they're purchased? And I already said that what I said before was based on what I saw at my local PJ's....


Wow, the PJ's store owner's must be amazingly well to do to constantly bring in wild scalare and Altum Angels that either die in transit or within 2 weeks of being put into the store tank. Dosen't sound like a profitable exercise and yet they keep doing it...


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

We actually have several decent pictures of the beasts, they have grown so much since we got them. Maybe I'll post them tonight, after kids are in bed


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

They must look amazing, can't wait to see pictures and I'm not sure about yours but I always found with mine that once they settled in, they were amazingly aggressive eaters, so much so that domestic angels got pushed aside and that's an impressive feat


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## hlee72ca (Jun 29, 2010)

BelieveInBlue said:


> I've only seen 10-15 orders of wild angels, most of them at the local PJ's, so perhaps my knowledge is a little limited, but I see them come in one day, and 3-4 days later they're either dead or dying.


 I know for a fact that they have not ordered that many orders of wild angels. As another poster has stated, most companies will stop ordering in fish that would die after 3-4 day. They may order 2-3 times, but I don't think anyone has that deep of pockets to keep ordering fish that die. I appreciate your enthusiam about the aquaria hobby, as your power posting indicates, however your facts are often skewed.


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## fishdragon (Nov 8, 2010)

giraffee said:


> We actually have several decent pictures of the beasts, they have grown so much since we got them. Maybe I'll post them tonight, after kids are in bed


can't wait to see them. wonder where you got them 2 month ago.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

I already said I was wrong... what more do you want from me? Can we just drop it and get back to the actual topic of this post?


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## Hi Im Mike (Sep 11, 2011)

Yeah can we? So where is the cheapest I can get toonie size autums at?
What's the difference between scalars and autum?? Or..?


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## Fishman21 (Apr 26, 2010)

Ok, I initiated this discussion - thanks for everybody's input - lets get back on track. The positive benefit to me is that I have now learned about the location of 2 more petshops to visit. Cool!

Altums remain a big challenge. (as expected!)

For those that have kept them successfully - how did you start off? - ie what medication did you apply, how long, what foods etc?

thanks!


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

My limited experience with altum angels goes like this. About 7 weeks ago I purchased 4 toonie sized altums from charles. My water parameters were 6ph, 80f, 10 nitrate, 0amm, 0nitrite. They started out great eating blood worms and sucking in then spitting out colorbits. After about a week of having them I noticed one had what looked to be excess slime coat. After about 10 days he got worse and died. Near the end I had started soaking there food in jungle labs parasite cure. I also switched to a beefheart mixture I purchased from another member who uses it for his discus. The altums love it. Shortly after the first one died I noticed a second one was showing the same symptoms. I posted on the hospital section and got the advice to raise temps and add salt. I had already been dosing melafix. Raising the temp seemed to speed up the decline of the second altum and he was dead within the week. Both of the deceased acted normal and ate well to within 48 hours of their decline. Then my third altum started showing the same signs. I was really stuck at this point. I do bi weekly 40% water changes and was monitoring my parameters and was at a loss. I lowered the temp to try and slow down to what I think was a bacterial infection. The altum continued to decline to a point where I thought it had 3 days to live at most. I began feeding live blackworms from charles to try and get my apistos to breed. I don't know if this had anything to do with what happened next but the deathly sick looking altum stated to make a come back. Now a couple weeks later I seem to have 2 happy and healthy altums (fingers crossed). The one who never showed any signs of illness being noticeably bigger but I am happy that 2 seem to be doing well. I am unsure what I have learned from this but maybe someone else can benefit from it.


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## Fishman21 (Apr 26, 2010)

very helpful. thanks for the detailed breakdown. do you have any pictures?


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)




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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

Beautiful lookings Altums,clear and straight fins,even body shape and nice colouring and markings.This is just the beginning,they have alot more to grow still! Thanks for sharing


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

Those are beautiful Altums, well done.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

Bizbom, what you described with your Altums is exactly what I used to find happened with mine too, the slime coat and in my case, fin rot and they looked like they were going to die. Ironically, they seemed to keep eating through the whole thing.

I was never sure what caused it, whether it was Vancouver water vs their natural water, whether it was bacteria or what it was, but it happened everytime I got a new Altum.

Last year, I got another small batch from Charles and they looked so healthy, I threw them in with my discus right away and for the first time, had none of the slime coat and fungus problems. IMO, the difference was that in my main discus tank where I put the Altums, I do at a minimum, daily 50% water changes, sometimes 2 X 50%. I don't treat the water other than prime and some buffers


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

I think symptoms described here as an excessive slime coat, fin rot, I also saw characteristic white saddleback lesion - this is type of columnaris bacterial disease and it looks like Altums are catching this opportunistic bacteria easily during first couple of weeks of acclimatization period. This may be because of minor traumas during catching/transportation, but probably more because of the Ich-type parasites which I never had in my tank before but it developed in 2 weeks on Altums first and jumped on Cardinals and GBRs in a couple of days (but in much lower rate).
In my case I started with Melafix/Pimafix during my regular 30% each other day water changes and it was a mistake - disease progressed and I lost some time. My excuse was that I didn't want to break biological filtration by antibiotics but at some point I had to decide if I want to have Altums or zero ammonia. I chose Maracyn Plus because of it broad spectrum. If I am sure it was Columnaris only than Kanaplex or Furan 2 would be probably a better choice as they are specialising on the gram negative bacteria.
Anyway, nuke first symptoms with a strong cocktail of ParaGuard and Furan2/Maracyn Plus and this should help a lot. You can also consider salt, dips and baths using Methylene Blue or Potassium Permanganate in difficult cases.
And probably the most important - keep the temperature high (30 C) with a good aeration/circulation and do no less than 50%/day water change! This to some point contradicts with Columnaris definition which is very aerobic and likes warm water, but keeping temperature high and water aerated greatly increase fishes metabolism and help them fight this disease pathogen.
Hope this help.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

That's very helpful giraffee. I had actually bought E.M. Erythromycin but I never ended up using it. I would rather stick with my bi-weekly water changes than daily but I would if completely necessary.


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## deepRED (May 22, 2010)

PM Kevin22 and see if he'll post some pics of his altums that he raised from little guys. 

Some of the nicest, biggest I've seen locally.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Erythromicyn is primarily gram positive while Columnaris is a gram negative rod bacteria so it can be used just as an indicator of Columnaris - if disease is progressing during Erythromicyn treatment then yes, you almost for sure have Columnaris ...
Don't use it.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

giraffee said:


> Erythromicyn is primarily gram positive while Columnaris is a gram negative rod bacteria so it can be used just as an indicator of Columnaris - if disease is progressing during Erythromicyn treatment then yes, you almost for sure have Columnaris ...
> Don't use it.


Thanks. The fish has mad a quick recovery and now shows no visible signs of illness. What do you feed yours?


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## crazy72 (Apr 22, 2010)

Giraffee your altums are beautiful and your tank looks stunning too. 

Do you have a tank journal with more pics/vids? If not, would you consider starting one?


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

deepRED said:


> PM Kevin22 and see if he'll post some pics of his altums that he raised from little guys.
> 
> Some of the nicest, biggest I've seen locally.


yeah. Kevin Has some amazing angels. Seeing his angles makes me want to get rid of my discus and start an altum tank...

Here is a video of Kevin Angels

http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh307/kevinli22/?action=view&current=DSCF0738.mp4


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

As for the feeding - they eat everything and ask for more within minutes. They literally leap out of the water when feeding ) Right now it's about four times a day and they still seem hungry.

Thank you for the complements. It has been a bumpy ride to say the least, so no journal so far. The tank was supposed to be a discus playground, but after buying altums on a whim now we are seriously considering buying another tank for discus as it doesn't seem like altums and discus would get along. If we do start a new tank (okay, not *if*, but *when*) perhaps we'll start a journal. As it is, the fish seems happy, now we need to try and not kill the plants.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

fishdragon said:


> can't wait to see them. wonder where you got them 2 month ago.


I know where he got them


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## Chappy (Apr 21, 2010)

giraffee said:


> ....._*as it doesn't seem like altums and discus would get along. *_


Don't worry about that  In fact, sometimes a sole altum in with wild and/or domestic discus will actually consider itself a discus instead of an angelfish. I say go ahead and keep them together.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Oh wow Shelley! They look comfortable together )


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

*Tank Raised Altums*

Please see link below for apparently tank bred Altums.

No, I have no connection with this store.

I have never bought Altums from this source before but I have purchased discus from him a couple of times before and his fish, service and shipping have been great. The purchases that I made were probably 3 or 4 plus years ago, before I discovered April, Fantasy and Mello as my sources of discus :lol:

Sunrise Tropicals Discus Farm USA, discus fish,


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

Those guys sure have some nice stock! A little bit of everything for everybody! If i kept domestic discus, i sure would be interested in making a purchase from here.Those altums they have sure have size as well,but must cost a fortune to get!Thanks for sharing Joe


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## jiayaw (Jun 10, 2011)

I would be interested in keeping altum angels in the future, in place of the scalares that I have now. I was just wondering would the soft acidic (dgh and dkH < than 2degrees) tap water in Vancouver be good enough for them, or would a filtering system (RO or the likes) of some sort is still needed for success in keeping altums? I have success with angels with just tap water in Vancovuer but just not sure what would the altums need. 

Also aside from seeing IPU important altums every now and then, where would be a good source to look into for altum angels when I am ready for keeping them? 

Thanks!


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

-N/A- said:


> Don't worry about that  In fact, sometimes a sole altum in with wild and/or domestic discus will actually consider itself a discus instead of an angelfish. I say go ahead and keep them together.


That Altum has an amazing history and it's life story is why I took such offence to the ill informed posts about the survival rate of Altums that side tracked this thread...

Ask Shelly for the history :bigsmile:


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## Chappy (Apr 21, 2010)

josephl said:


> Ask Shelly for the history :bigsmile:


It's actually spelled Shelley.
I think the story was on the old forum. I'll see if I have it anywhere. If I can find it, I'll re-post.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

JosephL,

Judging by the state of the altums in King Ed's they are not the easiest fish to keep. And it wasn't a walk in the park for ours either. We lost one out of six. King Ed's lost 3 out of 10, and sold 4 in a very bad condition. Last time I was there about two weeks ago the remaining three seemed to have lost all of their fins, tails... So it is not surprising that people believe these are difficult fish to keep.

Shelley, we want the story. This is the stuff of legends here  (note the correct spelling of your name )


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

There's another source besides Tony that has domestic bred altums. Apparently 7th generation and breed as regularly as regular angels. 
The ones imported from Tony came in ,were held for a time then shipped to awaiting pre-order customers.
Scalars are tough. Wild caught.
As joseph said clean water is a requirement. A central system and rotating employees may be detrimental to their health. They need a big tank and clean water. 
Joeseph has grown alot out. I've seen his altums. 
There are also altum scalares which are not the true altums. 
Pjs does get theirs from south America. Transshipped.

---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.275056,-122.835453


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## Fishman21 (Apr 26, 2010)

what type are the WC angels at PJ's? Wild scalares?


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

"wild scalares" they say. I don't know though, I don't trust chain stores.

And seriously, is this going to be one of those things where I make one mistake and people never let me forget about it...?


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