# No matter how much I read I just don't understand my lighing needs!



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

I count myself as reasonably intelligent, but I can't seem to wrap my head around lighting requirements.
I have a 15G tank (60cmx30cmx30cm Waterhome) and it currently has the single T8 17W hood it came with.While it looks nice, it's just not quite enough light to grow much. Anubias and java moss, that's about it. (and really slowly)

I'd like to increase the lights in order to grow a few more interesting things (not sure what) but don't feel the need to go high tech. I'd prefer not to go with CO2. Ferts are fine though I guess. I also don't want an algae explosion!

Anyhow, I looked in vain for quite some time for something I could just "add" to the existing system. (the Marineland Hidden LED looked promising, but I don't think it really adds enough light to be worth it. 

Then I started looking at replacing the hood. I could go with a glass canopy and a new light, but it has to be reasonably priced, as the recession has not treated me well. 

Which leads me to my question. If I just want low to medium (maybe more towards the medium) lighting, how much light do I need? I was thinking a dual T5RO (2x14W) but after reading all the "the WPG rule is outdated" and the "Lumens are where it's at!" articles, I'm more confused than ever.

Do I DIY? Or buy a new canopy? (I can't go topless as I already have condensation issues in my place)

AAARGH!


----------



## AdamsB (Oct 18, 2011)

Check out fishneedit.com. You can get some pretty nice t5 units.im not sure what your hood looks like but I had a 15 gallon that I just removed the hood from. Only issue Is evaporation. They are mostly use for reef tanks I believe that you can request fresh water bulbs though. 6700k or so.


----------



## monkE (Aug 4, 2010)

I feel your pain, this is a sticky thread in the Planted section here, it helped me immensely when I began getting into planted tanks.

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/planted-tank-specific-13/basic-guide-lighting-13/

For me the answer was replace the existing hood with a Hagen GLO T5x2 fixture and I had great results. Glass tops would suit your place if you don't want to leave the tank open. 
Charles (from canadian aquatics) had some very nice light fixtures at reasonable prices


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

IMO a T5HO dual tube is going to cause you problems without CO2 or some form of carbon. The problem with faster, noticeable growth is that the cost associated is rapid uptake of nutrients. That nutrient not only includes NPK (Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium), but also carbon. If you get your plants growing fast, you'll rapidly deplete the carbon available from CO2 dissolved in the water. So if you say you don't want to go high tech I think your options are limited. The problem is that the 15 gallon is such a shallow and small tank, you don't have a lot of choices in lighting. In a 40 gallon breeder, or a 75 gallon tank, you'd be able to vary the amount of light with banks of lights by turning one on and off.

One thing that you should know is that it's not only the amount of light that's limiting, but the amount of nutrients. I'm able to grow a lot of plants in low light tanks by injecting CO2 or dosing Seachem Flourish Excel (or Glute) to provide that carbon source. So the first thing you should consider is whether you are supplying enough nutrients.

What is the stocking level in the tank and what are your water parameters? (pH, GH, KH, nitrate, phosphate, etc.) A pic of the tank currently might also help.

A list of the plants you want to grow would certainly help. Low, medium, high light plants can be subjective. I know many people grow "high" light plants in low tech tanks no problems, but it depends on a lot of factors like substrate, tank depth, etc. 17W of T8 in a 12" high tank isn't actually that low a lighting level. I'm growing Anubias, Subwassertang, Ludwigia Repens, and Cryptocoryne parva with 3 w of LED lighting in a 20 gallon in Florabase currently.

Oh, as if it's not confusing enough already, lumens is also old news. Most people use PAR now. 

And welcome to BCA!


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

I'm not really sure which plants I want to grow yet, I just would like a few more other than anubias!  though nothing wrong with them. I'm fairly new to planted tanks (in case you couldn't tell!) I guess I've just been afraid to try new plants because I didn't think I had many options. If you're saying 17w on my tank is good enough, then YAY! I agree t5HO is overkill, so I was wondering about the RO ones...?)
As for the current conditions: ( hopefully these make sense)
GH - 6 (or is it 60? 3 drops) 
KH -3 (30?? three drops as well)
NO3 - less than or about 10 ppm
no real ammonia measured
ph 7.6 (I'd like to get this down, my tap is 6.5 but unfortunately I think there is some crushed coral mixed in my substrate causing this)
no idea what the phosphate level is.

Currently stocked with a bunch of cherry shrimp and 3 amanos. (and one remaining neon, though it had 6 neons at one point)


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't know which test kit you are using, but with the API kits, it's one drop per degree for GH and KH. Based on your stocking and your nitrate readings, I think a bit of Flourish Excel and adding back a few more neons will get you where you need to be for the balance you are looking for.

I am not sure what you mean by RO? Do you mean NO? Like the Coralife ones? I used a T5NO Coralife on my 15 gallon dosing Excel with Eco-Complete substrate with great success for a period of time until I overstocked it and neglected it, which eventually led to the dismantling of the tank, but which also led to a 46 gallon bow replacement. 

If you want to see faster growth, get plants which grow faster. The Ludwigia repens that I mentioned grows well in low tech tanks and I have it growing in several tanks. Wisteria (Hygrophilia difformis) is another fast grower that does well. Crytocorynes also grow well in lower light, but may get too big in that tank in time. But you might want to try those out to see how you like them. Bacopa carolina is another good one.


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

oops yes! I meant NO!  Though I would prefer if I could make a go with my single 17W existing bulb. I'd rather not have to buy a new canopy/light setup.

Excel is a daily thing, correct? What happens if you miss a day or two? (I go out of town from time to time) I used to run a diy CO2 on this tank, but found it rather tedious. I suppose I could give it another go.

Ok, I'll look up those plants you suggest. Thanks for that. Is there a place anyone suggests that carries a good selection of well priced, low light plants? (and is knowledgeable enough to be able to help me?) 

Thanks for all the info so far everyone.


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> I'm growing Anubias, Subwassertang, Ludwigia Repens, and Cryptocoryne parva with 3 w of LED lighting in a 20 gallon in Florabase currently.


wait... 3W? 20G? am I missing something? Because that marineland hidden led I thought about adding to my existing hood was about that I think...


----------



## neven (May 15, 2010)

those strips you speak of work out to 25 par at 12 inches above substrate, mounted in the hood or on the tank rim will be close to that. Not enough by itself but with your existing bulb it will bump your par up enough. You could even go as far as to retrofit your hood and epoxy the clips for the bulb tube onto the hood, this way you can turn the bulb as you need, and its not in the water or just at its edge. I own a strip of the blue version and i prefer mine above the tank rather than in it to reduce spot lighting and i dont see the tube through the water (it literally sits just in the water). Now if you really want to, you can even completely remove your old bulb down the road and run two of these strips.

The reason these strips are frowned upon for plants is because they are considered accent lighting with emitters that low (.06Watts each bulb, whereas most led fixtures decent have 1W or better). However, having a tank that low in depth they work fine if you use 2 as i suggested, or the strip plus a t8 bulb.

i got the par from jl's site, 25 at 12", 11 at 24" above. So for 12" deep tanks fine, 18" taller and you are wasting your money unless you are after an accent light or moon light
Marineland Hidden LED Lighting System (21 Inch)


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

we have 24" dual HOT5 and 24" 0.2w LED fixture in both hex and HI model. If you are interested, come take a look. All the fixture can be put on top of a tank without a canopy or glass top.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

77_Bus_Girl said:


> wait... 3W? 20G? am I missing something? Because that marineland hidden led I thought about adding to my existing hood was about that I think...


Nope, you're not missing anything. My 20 gallon is lit with a 3 W LED from Charles (Beamswork). Grows plants very slowly, but works fine. Another member who isn't on here very much is growing beautiful Anubias with LED stick on strips from Hamilton: Hamilton White LED Lighting Strip (32 Inch)

If you search the threads by his username Crazy72 you'll see this threads. He isn't dosing Excel or anything. Algae free, low maintenance tanks.
Here's one of his threads: http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/tank...d-edition-updated-nov-17-a-24197/index13.html

He's actually selling some of the strips as he's taken some tanks down. http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...ieds-27/fs-3m-sand-hamilton-led-strips-30735/
Looks like the 20" has sold though, but you might be able to use the 32" by wrapping it around the hood. $25 is a great deal.

I'm actually using one of these strips in my 46 bow with a T8 light. I have the T8 on for only 6 hours a day with the LED's on for 2 more hours. Actually now that I think about it, you could use those to stick inside your hood and grow decent low light plants without any problems. No need for glass tops or anything.


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

Wow, those look cool... they are similar to the marineland ones I guess? 
Marineland Hidden LED Lighting System (21 Inch)

which I calculate are about 3 and a bit watts. (not including the blue moonlights) not sure how many watts the Hamilton one would be, I can't find anywhere that is says.

I can add one of those for $45.... (I don't think the longer used Hamilton one would fit unless they are really really bendy, and it would result in a lot of light at the sides.

hmm. worth considering?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

They're just a strip of light with an adhesive backing, and yes, they're very bendy.  You could certainly try adding that. I'll try to take a pic of my light with the strip in it for you a bit later today so you can see how I have it.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Here's what it looks like in the T8 light strip. I just stuck it on the one side. That's the 20" strip.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Personally I would go and buy a light fixture from Charles. They are very inexpensive and saves you the trouble of adding this and that to the light. If you ever want to grow some more "high tech" plants or use Co2 you may be be looking for a new light fixture anyway...
You dont need to turn the light on for very long if it is too powerful, and with some fixture you can choose to use only 1 tube and set things on a timer. Such a light can be have for under $100 from Charles.
I am lazy and not handy at all which is why i dont like to modify . But if you are handy and know what you are doing may be you should try DIY. Gary and Neven know what they are talking about.
Good luck.


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

I managed to find a Marineland Hidden LED for cheap ($40 yay!) and found a great way to mount it inside my plastic hood. wow does it add a lot of light!  (plus the moonlights are really cool)

And the nice people at Fantasy Aquatics helped me find some plants. (thanks!) I think now my limiting factor will be CO2, and since a pressurized system is out of the question, I have been reading about the Jello method for DIY co2. looks promising. (would also be nice to lower my oh just a bit) hopefully I can figure it all out.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I would consider just adding Metricide or Excel. DIY CO2 is so difficult to maintain a stable level of CO2. A jug of metricide might be even cheaper than all the ingredients of DIY CO2 on that scale.


----------



## neven (May 15, 2010)

jello co2 is pretty stable actually if the room temp is stable. However over time a jug of metricide would be equivalent to the cost of jello co2 running through the year, maybe even cheaper


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

How much is a tub of Metricide? and how long would that last on a 15 G tank? And what's involved in dosing it? I've never used it (nor excel). I read its quite toxic.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

77_Bus_Girl said:


> How much is a tub of Metricide? and how long would that last on a 15 G tank? And what's involved in dosing it? I've never used it (nor excel). I read its quite toxic.


It's a medical disinfectant. No more toxic than bleach. Maybe less toxic than bleach as concentrated chlorine gas is deadly. It has to kill living organisms to work. Excel is dosed at 1 mL per gallon and Metricide is about double the strength so for a 15 gallon if you dose 5 mL every day, or 10 mL every other day that should be enough. As you get the hang of it, you can dial it up and down. I use much less than the recommended amount for several reasons. 1. Why spend more money than I need? 2. Why put more stuff in the water than I need? 3. I'm lazy.

I just looked at my jug which is about 4 months old and about half full (I'm dosing 100, 46, and 20 gallon tanks with it, plus spot treating for algae in other tanks) and it was $20.40 before taxes. It's 1 gallon or 3.8 L so in your 15 gallon, using 10 mL 3x a week, it should last more than 120 weeks or more than to 2 years. I doubt you can do jelly cheaper than that, especially after you factor in your time.

Realistically, pressurized CO2 is really cheap too except for the startup cost. I refill my 10 and 20 lb tanks, at most once a year, so $40 last me all year for a 125 gallon tank. I suspect my hydro test won't last as long as the CO2 in my ADA cube since it's a 10 lb tank. I'd start with Excel and save for a pressurized setup. It makes things soooo much easier, and you have way more control.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I was using excel for a while and always ended up with dead shrimps.  I am not sure if they are directly related (I know some people say they use excel and their shrimps are fine but definitely not me, even when I was dosing less than recommened dose) but may be something to look into in case you want to buy some shrimps? 
Anyway, just want to point this out for whatever it is worth. 
DIY Co2 is not consistent and you cannot adjust it, but it is very cheap to make. I tried that before. I attached the outlet to a powerhead and the plants were growing better. The problem is sometimes you have lots of Co2 and sometimes very little, that can affect your Ph. 
I have never tried jello Co2.
You may get lucky and find a pressurized Co2 set up for $100 or may be even less....keep an eye out in the classified section. it is defintiley a good investment to get a pressurized set up if your budget allows for it. Good luck.


----------



## 77_Bus_Girl (Dec 30, 2012)

I do really want to eventually go to a proper pressurized CO2 set up, but it's out of the question right now (unless someone takes me up on my classified section post to trade a bunch of Canadian Tire money and gift cards!  a girl can dream!) so maybe the Excel/Metricide way is the way to go. 

Why do people choose one over the other? 
I've seen Excel in the shops, but not Metricide... where does one buy it?
And if I happen to go away for a week or two and miss the dosing will that be a terrible thing? (it's probably too much to ask of the dogsitter/housesitter/fishsitter who does it for free to also be my plantsitter....)


----------

