# Lost here, wondering what I should do, or could



## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

My problem (only one I'm going to share with all you folks) is that I am limited to 1 tank, I have a 3foot 65 gallon tank that I was going to use as a plant tank but it occured to me that I am tired of high maintenance aquariums. I thought I'd get some african cichlids but after searching the classified ads here I think the old world cichlids hold a lot of promise as well. I've had firemouths, convicts, angels and discus before and all did well. 

I'd like some idea's on what I could or should do with a community oriented tank in mind. If I go african I'll stock a bit heavy to keep aggression down and activity up. I will have a few plants anchored down and rock with playsand aragonite mixed. My favorite africans are alto calvus and tropheus but I know I can't keep both together. 

Old world I like apisto's, anything really that's colourful and active. I would like fish that will spawn with out having to have lunar light cycle simulators etc.. (fairly easy to breed is what I mean). 

Your thoughts?

Douglas


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

For fw, I've always thought it was hard to beat a really nice breeding pair of firemouth cichlids. They're bigger than some of the other cichlids, like apistos and rams, so easier to see and appreciate. Mine, in the past, never really bothered my plants very much so you could still use some hardy live plants.


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## target (Apr 21, 2010)

Are you limited to one tank because of floor space? Cause you could always do a stacker stand and have 2 x 65g tanks. I can't comment on cichlids as I have never kept them.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

+1 on anthony's suggestion, I love the look of firemouths, they dont get super stupid huge, they breed and x breed quite easily and the adults , like true adult are beautiful, if i had the room or had a plan of my own right now i would keep a nice pair or maybe x breed it with my male jag x con, 

but your talking africans that can fit in a 3 foot footprint , you know there are plenty of other african fish you could most likely house together instead of an african cichlid tank maybe do an african biotype do a little research and see what else lives amongst them , i know some people have had success with bichirs but it is on a case by case basis


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Tropheus gets my vote.


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## STANKYfish (Apr 21, 2011)

Planted tanks are the best, i have 3, and the only thing i have to do is trim once in a while. I have a sunblaster light stick, from grow shop and the others have the new twisted home light bulbs. The only fert they get is fish poop


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, as it turns out I have a pair of firemouths right now not breeding yet but I'm sure the small one is a female, rounded dorsal and anal tips and the male is beautifully coloured up. Maybe I'll get some Severums as well I've always liked the look of them.

Charles, Tropheus are so amazing and with my light I could have algae growning on rocks in no time...

Stankyfish, I really enjoy planted tanks but unless I'm going to change out my light my plants grow faster than my lawn and I have about 5 Kg of dry fertilizer for fert mix and I like to fert 3x a week so yeah I get plant growth. Again, I'd like to just do a 20 gallon water change a week and have everyone happy.

well... that narrows it down anyway.

Just looked on aquabid and there is a beautiful group of Tropheus for sale and same seller has an amazing group of Julidochromis as well...

Thanks for the thoughts

Douglas


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## Foxtail (Mar 14, 2012)

I wanted low maintnance aswell, so I went with 3 really nice pieces of planted wood in my 120... The fish dont dig them up, if I need or want to move things around, I can without hurting anything and all I do is a weekly waterchange and gravel vac... No ferts or dosing... Altho im thinking about using some flourish.

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk 2


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

That's a great idea Foxtail. if you ever get out to Maple Ridge I can make you a bottle of Poor Mans dosing drops.

Douglas


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

What is a poor mans dosing drop, is that some kind of ferts?


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Yes it's a homemade fert, you have two choices, all in one bottle and it's a bit on the weak side or I can make you up 5 seperate bottles so you can dose each as you need. The 5 bottles are at a strength that you would dose 3 x a week then do a 50% water change weekly or run the risk of over doing it.

I'll post directions for making and dosing later this week.

Douglas


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

PMDD

•	1 Tbsp (~9g) Chelated Trace Element Mix (7% Fe, 1.3% B, 2% Mn, 0.06% Mo, 0.4% Zn, 0.1% Cu, EDTA, DTPA) 
•	2 Tsp (~14g) K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) 
•	1 Tsp (~6g) KNO3 (potassium nitrate) 
•	2.5 Tbsp (~33g) MgSO4.7H2O (fully hydrated magnesium sulfate, aka epsom salts; omit if already present in trace element mix) 
•	300mL distilled H2O 
•	0.5mL 9M HCl (optional) 
(Most of the ingredients can be purchased at hydroponics shops or garden supply stores. Epsom salts are available inexpensively at pharmacies) 
Dissolve the trace element mix in 150mL distilled water, then add the remaining ingredients. Pour in additional water to make 300mL solution. The HCl helps prevent the growth of fungus and may be omitted if the mix is kept in the refrigerator. Add enough mix to the tank every day to keep the Fe level at about 0.1ppm (the exact amount will have to be determined by experimentation, but 3mL per 100L tank water is about right for a tank with rapidly growing plants). Measure nitrate levels regularly, and adjust the amount of KNO3 in the mix to maintain 3-5ppm (this step is fairly important). Those concerned about adding nitrates to their aquarium can dose the KNO3 separately, omitting it initially and adding it later as required to obtain the desired concentration. 
The shelf life of the solution is unknown. Make small batches, or store only dry powders (but mix them with water before adding them to the aquarium). 

1.	The amount or "size" in ml (milli-liters) of your daily PMDD dose should eventually be governed by monitoring Fe (iron) levels that accumulate and equilibrate in your aquarium over a period of time (more on this later). But, to get started, for each ten gallons, try around 1/12 ml of PMDD a day (roughly 2 drops). A 29 gallon tank would then get 1/4 ml a day (roughly 6 drops). If you don't do many partial water changes, dose less. If you have a "high tech", densely planted, CO2 injected, VHO lit tank, you might want to double the dose to 1/6 ml of PMDD per 10 gallons a day (roughly 4 drops). 
2.	Most of the PMDD nutrient ratios set by Conlin and Sears will work for a variety of conditions. PMDD has been deliberately formulated so that if aquarium Fe concentration is proper, other nutrient concentrations should fall into place. Really, the only common exception to this is NO3 (nitrate); you may need to tinker with the ratio of KNO3 to other PMDD ingredients. Adjusting this ratio will eventually be governed by NO3 levels that accumulate and equilibrate in your aquarium over a period of time (more on this later). 
To get started, if you have around 5mg/ltr of natural NO3 already in your aquarium, initially use the standard 1 tablespoon KNO3 per 1/2 liter PMDD mix. 
If your natural NO3 is much higher, initially don't add any KNO3 to your PMDD. 
If you have next to no NO3, you might initially boost the KNO3 to 2 or even 3 tablespoons per 1/2 liter of PMDD. 
3.	Lastly, as you go along, you'll need to monitor buildup of Fe and NO3 in your aquarium. Then, watch how plants and unwanted algae respond. As each daily dose adds nutrients, a portion of some will accumulate until eventually you'll reach an equilibrium level. This ramp up and stabilizing process will take awhile (weeks) to occur. Be prepared to adjust your dosage size and KNO3 ratio as you gather feedback. 
The specifics on Fe
Consensus is to dose PMDD so that you accumulate and maintain around 0.1mG/ltr (0.1 milli-grams/liter or 0.1 Parts Per Million) concentration of Fe (Iron) in the aquarium. Exceeding 0.2mG/ltr of Fe seems to be counterproductive. 
With the dosage size recommended part 3, you should see Fe levels slowly ramp up. Eventually, Fe you add will equal what's depleted from plant use, water changes, etc. Again, try to fine tune your dosage size so at that equilibrium point, your Fe is around 0.1mg/ltr. 


Douglas


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Sorry I double posted here.


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Delete this please


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## dssv (Jan 1, 2012)

Here's a link to The name PMDD is short for "Poor Man's Dupla Drops", a reference to an inexpensive homemade nutrient program
Tropical Fish Centre - PMDD PRIMER
I'm still using flourish in my tanks an having not made the step to doing PMDD yet. Reason of buying a life time supply of fert's to get all the stuff to make a batch of "Poor Mans dosing drops".


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

I certainly wouldn't recommend PMDD for someone with a nano plant tank, but for a large tank it's a safe bet. As your tank matures and needs change you can switch over to the Estimative Index system where you can dose each fert individually until you find your working dose. It's a neat process and you need a sharp pair of scissors because you'll be pruning almost daily, some people like that.

Douglas


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

I think you meant to say new world cichlids; I've never kept Africans, but I love the more "peaceful" South Americans, right now I have a Keyhole, Bolivian Ram, and a group of angels. Very nice community, and quite intelligent fish.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Is the poor man drosing drop what people mostly used during the earlier days before EI came along? If I understand corectly, it sounds like a dosing of N,P, K, Fe and micro, as well as equilibrium, but the portions need to be more carefully monitored and calculated comapred to EI whereas you just make sure you have more than enough, is that correct? 
Is there some benefit of using this over EI, please?
Thank you.


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Gsneufeld, I did mean New World, been a rough few months so sleep is at a premium and sometimes my mind is more mush than anything.

I had bolivian rams a long time ago, completely forgot about them, such pretty fish. Always wanted keyholes, thought they looked pretty spectacular.

Looks like I'm going Severums, firemouths, maybe convicts, gotta decide how to lay out the tank and make caves and shelter for everyone. I am going to try to stop by the landscape supplier today and price out some slate, I think what I have in mind will look very nice and give hidey holes for fish and critters.

Douglas


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Fish Rookie, yes it's been around for years and it is from a time before EI. The main idea with PMDD though is you don't have to measure everything but keep measuring your iron levels and everything else will be maintained. If your iron level drops N P and K will have dropped as well so dose enough to bring your Fe back and presto....

EI is great for plant growth and algae control but get sick and miss a water change or two and you're messed up, takes a while to get the tank settled again. I tried playing with EI, dosing smaller doses twice a week and doing 2x a month water changes but it didn't work, I also had 10watts/gallon of light over my tank so it wasn't really a controlled environment.

If you ever come out to Maple Ridge and want to try either give me a couple days notice and I'll make you up a batch of which ever you want to try.


Douglas


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

if you ever come out to vancouver island I have enough slate here to aquascape half the tanks in vancouver, and there is a pretty sweet hunny hole just down the block for really twisted maple roots, and other killer driftwood that comes from local creeks and lk cowichan.. just putting it out there you never know who travels where..and im glad you choosing new worlds , there are too many people dealing with those crazy africans already..


bcorchidguy said:


> Gsneufeld, I did mean New World, been a rough few months so sleep is at a premium and sometimes my mind is more mush than anything.
> 
> I had bolivian rams a long time ago, completely forgot about them, such pretty fish. Always wanted keyholes, thought they looked pretty spectacular.
> 
> ...


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## Foxtail (Mar 14, 2012)

bcorchidguy said:


> That's a great idea Foxtail. if you ever get out to Maple Ridge I can make you a bottle of Poor Mans dosing drops.
> 
> Douglas


Thanks for the offer... I'll probably take you up on that...

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk 2


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## roshan (Jul 19, 2010)

I would suggest Kribs and a Festivus, both are very colourfull and generally peacefull, love it when the Kribs interact and change colours!


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

I love kribensis, never had festivus but maybe in the future, right now I have convicts, firemouth pair and 4 severums. Planning on making one pair of convicts and a pair or two of severums and keep the firemouth pair, that'll be the capacity (pushing it) of my tank for now. My stand will have room for 2 20 gallon tanks underneath, one for water changes and one for fry.

Douglas


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## roshan (Jul 19, 2010)

bcorchidguy said:


> I love kribensis, never had festivus but maybe in the future, right now I have convicts, firemouth pair and 4 severums. Planning on making one pair of convicts and a pair or two of severums and keep the firemouth pair, that'll be the capacity (pushing it) of my tank for now. My stand will have room for 2 20 gallon tanks underneath, one for water changes and one for fry.
> 
> Douglas


I can tell you that my lone Festivus is very intelligent although it can be a bit of a food hog, probably becuase its the biggest fish in the tank at the moment


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