# No water change discus tank



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Really just want to have an objective discussion on this topic if it is possible.
Want to hear your comment on this no water change discus tank idea. Thanks.
No water changes in a discus tank?


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## seanyuki (Apr 22, 2010)

Imo small discus will not thrive well in a planted tank and may stun their grow .......juv discus are timid and giving them a chance to hide among the plants and only come when feeding them.......there are too many factors perhaps the more experience planted discus hobbyists could chine in.....my 2 cents.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I think I posted in that thread that I don't think it'll work. I also noticed the author of that thread dodged the experiment so that he wouldn't have to post the results. My discus tank now is heavily planted and I do 3 wc a week. I think the biggest problem is that since protein skimming doesn't work in freshwater, how does one deal with the shed slime and hormones? If one were able to devise a scheme to skim proteins then I would think that this would work. I think that's the biggest problem in discus tanks.


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

In my ex-150g (before it sprung a leak and shut down), I pushed 4 weeks for a water change, 3 weeks was quite comfortable with mo concern. It was not nearly as densely planted and established though and it has 15g of bio-balls and one of those thick plastic mat from JL. For the amount of feeding I was doing and the price of discus, I did not taking a chance past 4 weeks. It is possible to push for months with lighter feeding. Pretty sure there will be some loss and thinning of discus lower in the pecking order.

It is also a function of expectation on how fat you like to see your discus and how and what you feed. I have a few discus in my 75g discus now. Just lost the skinny ones after two weeks of medications. There is simply no way I could/would do daily WC. For now once a week and will push to once a month carefully. Probably like to try for longer once the balance is reached.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

What do you think about Tom Barr's comment that harmone is unfounded or something to that effect?
Is water change just about nitrate and hormone? Is it true that if we can remove these 2 somehow discus will be happy just as if we change our water everyday is my question.
When there are lots of rotten stuff in the filter and the tank, are they not going to pollute the water even if you have a nitrate reading of zero?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> What do you think about Tom Barr's comment that harmone is unfounded or something to that effect?
> Is water change just about nitrate and hormone? Is it true that if we can remove these 2 somehow discus will be happy just as if we change our water everyday is my question.
> When there are lots of rotten stuff in the filter and the tank, are they not going to pollute the water even if you have a nitrate reading of zero?


I didn't see Tom's comment, but unless he did it scientifically I'm not sure how he can prove hormones don't exist, since we know that's how females are attracted to males in most animals. Tom's methods generally involve lots of water changes, because doing water changes usually corrects whatever imbalance is present.

I am not sure if no change is impossible, but I just don't think it's reasonable when we live in a northern rainforest (looking outside right now) and our water is come of the best in the world. We could add this and that and put in fancy systems to compensate, which would cost lots of $$. Or we can just change water for pennies a day. Or even spend money on auto waterchanging systems and drip systems instead all those other things.

Water changes are not just about nitrates (and other waste) and hormones. As discussed in Grant's threads, it's also about trace minerals and osmotic pressure. Trace minerals are used up and need to be replenished. In a hard water system, this may last longer, but in our water system, the minerals don't last long and the GH would go to zero while the TDS would go up with other minerals and waste products. And with all the feces that discus generate, where does that go? In lower temperature fish with slower metabolisms and which are low waste producers, like white cloud mountain minnows, that might do it.

Even with goldfish, people change water and really discus are like high temperature goldfish. Very selectively bred, big bodied, high waste producers (unless we are discussing wilds, which would exclude the selective breeding).

And if there is a lot of rotting stuff in the tank, then eventually there is ammonia and then nitrate. You'd not get a nitrate reading of zero unless just changed the water or the plant uptake rate is extremely high. That's how fishless cycles used to be started, with rotting meat (like a shrimp), before people used pure ammonia.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Keep yourself in an enclosed room and keep peeling in the corner with no housekeeper and see how long it takes till your eyes start to water and your air is putrid. 
You can do once a month but your discus won't look the right shape and won't grow big. They begin to
Look like Severus but a humpy head and dinted nose and big eyes. Also uneven fins . 
Maybe if you had a huge refugium below te tank.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I gues what they are saying if fishwaste+plantwaste=plant intake then a balance system can be obtained in the tank...
They may be able to get replenished ions and mineral with top up.
They are talking about lots and lots of plants, healthy growing plants here I would assume, not just a few amazon sword in the corner.
But my question is even if notrate is zero it does not mean the water is clean/healthy, right? There are tones of rotten stuff in the tank I am sure if the water has not been changed in over a year.
The guy even said he would drink the water.
But then in the wild the water also could look quite dirty with rotten leaves and such so i am not sure...want to hear your thoughts.


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

Check out this video I found a while back. 
How to set up a Discus Fish Aquarium - Presented by WetPets & AmericanReef - YouTube


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

bonsai dave said:


> Check out this video I found a while back.
> How to set up a Discus Fish Aquarium - Presented by WetPets & AmericanReef - YouTube


Yes I watched that a few times. He said he changed his water liek once a year or so in the display tank in his store, but he also said growing out juvie is a different story.
The refugum is a pretty good idea and that should work better than most filters for sure. I dont think he is using that for his juvie though.
His display tank is not what i would really call a heavily planted tank, without the refugum those plants should nto be able to handle such a heavy load...the refugum is the key to his success plus he admits he cleans his glass and I suspect also trims his plants, takes out dead plants, removes excess food, and does a bunch of things ot make the tank look nice on a regular basis.


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## dino (Aug 29, 2011)

i mean you can try anything you want but its been proven and discussed to the max. if your raising fry or juvies you gotta change and change alot. Adult fish seem to be way way more hardy i read some jack wattley articles and he did lots of research on water changes and compairing doing waterchanges everyday or every other day and so on. the result was the more the better when raising these delicate fish. just my two cents im no pro like i always say


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Agreed Dino.
What interested me in this thread and the responses is not mainly regarding discus in particular but more of the fact that with a heavily planted tank it is stated that it is possible to achieve an equilibrium in such a way that water change is not needed even for a fish as sensitive and demanding to clean water as discus.
Then in the responses from Tom Barr, I am not sure I understand hom but it sounds like he was saying a low tech tank is better off without too much water change, which is confusing to say the least.
I cannot help but ask myself the question of "what is clean water?"
Is it just water with nitrate of zero, which can be achieved with a heavily planted tank with a light stock with light feeding in theory? 
Say if I change the water of such tank weekly, is the water going to be better/worst for the fish and plant then if I do not change the water for 6 months?
I understand the importance of redox balance, mineral content, ions depletion in old water and all that but with these no water change tank they actuaally still top up their tank with fresh water so it is not exactly a close system with no replenishing.
I am not really trying to start a discussion on the frenquency of water change for discus as to me personally I dont think ther eis any doubt that more is better; but I am more interested in the equilibrium of life form in such a tank and what really goes on inside such a tank.
His plants actually look quite good and his fish are breeding so his tank is not really just a junk tank covered by green algae with half dead fish.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

IMO weather it is a planted aquarium or not, water changes are essential for maintaining proper health and growth. Trace minerals, Nitrates, Pheromones all need to be reduced to maintain health. I agree with the posts below, where does the waste go without water change? I have had many a customer tell me they never do water changes and their fish are fine, these are also the same customers that cant introduce new fish without them dying and tend to blame the stock rather then their water. These customers are also famous for trading in grossly deformed fish. I think people are too hung up on the fact that plants reduce Nitrate, Nitrate has never been found to be harmful but rather used as a guide on overall water quality. I believe that is why this topic comes up from time to time.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

To do that sort of set up, you need to keep the bioload load. As with CO2 injection and high light tanks, a high nutrient load tank is difficult to balance and stabilize. So having juvie discus that you're trying to feed 5 times a day makes that next to impossible.

As for the top ups adding elements back, that works in places where the water had a lot higher TDS. When the TDS out of the tap is 15 (mine reads between 10 and 20 regularly) you're essentially adding back RO water with next to nothing in it, which means than adding GH booster with multiple elements into it, etc.

In terms of clean, it depends on terms of reference. Clean biologically, visually, or chemically? I've had tanks which looked "clean" read 80+ ppm of nitrates. I've also observed tanks full of floating debris registering 5 ppm nitrate. Which is cleaner? I am dosing nitrate and phosphate in my cube to feed the plants because of the 3x a week water changes, but between the discus slime, poop and almond leaf debris the tank never looks clean.

As to fish breeding, once again, some fish, like Betta splendens, breed in mud pools, so breeding is not necessarily an indication of cleaniless.

I think one can certainly do a Wahlstad or a natural tank with no filtration even, but the candidate fish are likely tetras and not discus, IMO.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thansk for the answer.
Grant may I ask if someone shows you two samples of water for testing, both with very low to zero nitrate. How do you tell which one is clean and which one is from a heavily planted tank that has been running without any water change for a long time?
If I understand what Tom Barr said (most of the times I dont LOL) he is saying TDS will also go down with a heavily planted tank that has reached equilibrium. But anyway even with a high TDS how do you know it s not from the ferts or food or GH booster or things like that rather than waste? If it looks brownish it could be just tannic?
How do you qualify 'clean' water?
PS by 'clean' I mean being clean for the fish, not for us. Disucs is known to be sensitvive to 'dirty' water, so let's just say how will you qualify 'clean' water for discus?
Thank you very much.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Thansk for the answer.
> Grant may I ask if someone shows you two samples of water for testing, both with very low to zero nitrate. How do you tell which one is clean and which one is from a heavily planted tank that has been running without any water change for a long time?
> How do you qualify 'clean' water?


Good question. Test kits are not available at a hobbyist level to test the other various levels that would be affecting fish health in that scenario. This is why with planted aquariums hobbyists tend to follow a general water change regimen as testing is difficult. To answer your question it would only be determined through conversation on the upkeep of the aquarium and the visual health of the fish, life span etc. I personally have seen stunted fish in planted aquariums with poor water changes. I would suggest that the deformaties I have seen have been more subtle but of course most hobbyists keep smaller fish in planted aquariums so the impact is not as obvious.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

That's why EI works. One just corrects all the imbalances with water changes. Without that, the ratios of the minerals can get way out of whack. Also for many planted tank people, fish are secondary. As a matter of fact, Tom Barr himself regularly removes fish from his tanks which don't fit with his plants (Rummynose tetras eating his UG for instance). So for many the fish health is not relevant in a planted tank.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks Grant, really appreciate your taking the time to answer my question.
At your level what kind of equipment or test will you conduct to find out if you are not able to see the fish?
If I understand correctly are you basically saying 'clean' water is one in which fish thrives in?
Take discus for example, how would you qualify water that they thrive in? Can a planted tank achieve this condition?
I am very curiosu as I have heard on many occassions that a planted tank is better for the health of fish because it providsd oxygen, removes nitrate and all that; but then in real we see people keeping and rasing discus in barebottom tanks if they want their discus to grow really well...
Thanks once again.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> That's why EI works. One just corrects all the imbalances with water changes. Without that, the ratios of the minerals can get way out of whack. Also for many planted tank people, fish are secondary. As a matter of fact, Tom Barr himself regularly removes fish from his tanks which don't fit with his plants (Rummynose tetras eating his UG for instance). So for many the fish health is not relevant in a planted tank.


Yes also read that he got his discus from discus breeders who did not want them. He said he prefers them to be smaller (think it may be his way of rephasing stunned) so he could put more into this tank. LOL
On the other hand, I have read Amano said that a perfect natural aquarium should be one in which the fish and plants would thrive and everything will be balanced perfectly. So fish is not supposed ot be secondary but in real, unfortunately they are.
Personally, fish is not secodnary to me, plants and fish are both important but if I have to choose only one I would choose fish.


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## mitchb (Apr 27, 2011)

This guy states they don't do many due to refugium (sp) How to set up a Discus Fish Aquarium - Presented by WetPets & AmericanReef - YouTube he says 10 water changes in 6 years...


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

The more fish that you have in a tank the more frequent the water changes. 

If a 90% daily change works, keep it up. But I tell you that I'd NEVER do a 90% daily water change in a lets say 200 gallon tank. That's not a hobby kind of a thing.

I have a 20 gallon tank with amazon swords and crypto. It seems like I can do no wrong, the water stays crystal clear. I might change 10-20% of the water every month. There must be a super balance there.

It's theoretically possible to sterilize and recycle the water in a discus tank.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

We have a 60 gallon tank at home loaded with miss balls. Low light. Well none. Just by a window with the curtains drawn. Water is always crystal clear and guppies and duplicarus and a few bushy nose are smiling from ear to ear. Rarely a wc. But guppies are small. Moss calls are like mini filters


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Cool!
I love duplicarus.  We won 2 in the monster auction and just love them--they are so cute and lively.


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