# Which substrates do you use and why?



## Dunbar_Painting

I have been out of the hobby for a couple years... last planted tank binge I had was ADA but I found it was a pain in the a$$ with cloudiness.

I am looking to try different substrates: Estes? onyx sand? eco complete? flourite? etc... 

I will likely have a high light / high tech set up: Co2, high light...

What I would like in a substrate is something black, easy to plant in, non cloudy (will prerinse), keeps the pH below 7, encourages plant growth, and maybe other stuff I haven't heard of.

Thoughts?


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## cheaman

In my different tanks I'm using Eco-Complete, ADA Aquasoil and Fluval Stratum. I don't find the ADA is too bad for cloudiness unless you're messing with it lots. Even when I do, I find my canister filters clean it by the next day. I like the look of the new Fluval Stratum the best. It's blacker than the ADA and seems a lot cleaner. The Eco-Complete is a nice substrate and is cheaper than the soil based substrates, although I do find things grow better in the ADA or Fluval substrates.

Money aside, if I had to choose between the three, I'd probably go with the Fluval.


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## CRS Fan

cheaman said:


> In my different tanks I'm using Eco-Complete, ADA Aquasoil and Fluval Stratum. I don't find the ADA is too bad for cloudiness unless you're messing with it lots. Even when I do, I find my canister filters clean it by the next day. I like the look of the new Fluval Stratum the best. It's blacker than the ADA and seems a lot cleaner. The Eco-Complete is a nice substrate and is cheaper than the soil based substrates, although I do find things grow better in the ADA or Fluval substrates.
> 
> Money aside, if I had to choose between the three, I'd probably go with the Fluval.


Couldn't have said it better !


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## dZilla

I'm currently using miracle gro organic garden soil with a play sand cap and some Shultz aquatic soil mixed in there.


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## neven

I use mostly innert substrates since i EI dose, so a nutrient rich substrate is not necessary.

I also have black flourite substrate, plants root well to it, but when things like hair algae occur, they really bind to it


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## EDGE

I prefer to use inert substrate myself. Don't have to tinker as much with fertilizer to offset the nutrients leeching from the substrate or lack of.


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## Jonney_boy

I have the Fluval substrate, ADA (powder), regular gravel.

If you wanted a "soil" based substrate, fluval stuff is nice to work in. does not cloud much, plants grow crazy in it.

But IMHO, the tank I have with just natural gravel is my favorite. It is super easy to clean (gravel vac), does not cloud, does not break down. Ferts are provided using root tabs (jobe sticks) and water column dosing (ei).

ADA, works great.... but... not my favorite. It's hard to find locally, $$, and stupid cloudy. All the filter floss is always just caked with the fine dust even after only 2-3 weeks.


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## tang daddy

I use ADA in all my tanks with no problems, no cloudiness no plugged filters!

If you take simple steps to planting in Ada then you won't have problems. Some great tips are turn off pumps and filters before planting, do a small waterchange and suck up all loose dust when pulling out plants.

Also if you use Ada then a continous weekly water change is needed to reset the params in the tank, as many have mentioned Ada has alot of nutrients so without religious water changes, the tank has excess nutrients and when that happens you will pay the piper or your plants will....

I don't dose anything, Ada has enough nutrients and minerals in it. If you keep plants that need heavy feeding then Ada is a good choice. The thing people don't realize is that while Ada is expensive, so is root tabs, Eco complete, excel, and ferts. Once you add those things up on a 2 yr period it works out to the same.

I've done it all EI, gravel and soil and found that soil has the best results for me and less work aswell. I am just giving my opinion, others may have a different opinion with different methods.


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## 2wheelsx2

That's a good general rule to remember in planted tanks, is that any planting/disturbance in the substrate should be accompanied by a water change. This will solve not only the cloudiness issue, but also any problems with algae blooms related to a sudden spike in organics/nutrient load.


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## neven

I disagree that ADA is the same cost when everything is factored in. Most people who use ADA also dose their water column, some even root tab the ada aswell. ADA is expensive, theres no point arguing otherwise. Comparing to other enriched substrates, the 'benefits' of ada vs them hasn't really been proven, its just all on observations of people using different tanks, different lighting and different fert regimes, not very proven. ADA is just the name brand, the in thing, for people who love that by all means go for it, but for those who don't care, save the money and get more plants  If you are even more thrifty and patient, MTS is far better way to go. You can also use cat litter instead of potter's clay.

Ferts, when you know the proper sources are dirt cheap, $15 spent will last you years unless you have very large tanks (and in which case = lots of ADA).

Root tabs are expensive as you want them to be. Jobe spikes $2 lasts me 2 years. If you don't want the spikes because you are worried about urea, then perhaps you should also worry about ADA being sprayed with ammonium. You can pay a little bit more to get the 'safer' slow release fert osmocote and freeze them in ice cubes (the stick ikea trays work awesome) so its easy to insert into the substrate. If you want to pay and arm and a leg, then get the aquarium branded root tabs, still will likely be cheaper than ADA.

and yes i agree with the water change, very minor plant work can be done without needing a water change, but if you're on a removing a deeprooted plant or see a plume of sediment on a soil based tank, then water change.


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## roadrunner

Just wondering.... how long does each type of substrate usually last.


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## EDGE

soil based substrate about 1/2 year to a 3 years depending on if you are referring to the nutrients or the structure. my ada soil is still holding it shapes after 3 years. No nutrients though, but tonnes of debris still build up over time. Counter productive since organisms that breaks down organics required Nitrogen to grow. They actually causes nitrogen deficiency if not supplement with higher amount of N vs P/K.

flourite is indefinite
onyx sand, the lower the pH the faster they burn out but still last a while.


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## Mykiss

This is a great topic. Thanks for your input guys.

Well, I use the substrate which have worked best for me and have almost converted all my shrimp tanks to ADA soil. My main concern lately is to keep shrimps alive and breeding. So, I've tried using regular aquarium gravel, ADA Amazonia I and Amazonia II, eco complete, florabase, first layer latterite, sand, Fluval Stratum, and onyx.

For growing (and black colour substrate), I prefer ADA and eco complete. The onyx (grey) is ok but I find that it likely has a lot of limestone (or something that dissolves) in it as my GH is KH is high without adding anything in it. My plants grow fine in that tank but not as good as the ADA tank. I find that I don't always have successes with the eco complete with shrimps however for plants they do well. I'm not sure why the eco isn't very good with breeding and growing out shrimps though. Maybe it's just me but I find that for both shrimps and plants it's the ADA soils that do it. This is just my experience, and that's why all my shrimp tanks have ADA soil in them.

I don't really have a lot of experience in growing plants, as my main focus are on the shrimps.
________
DeepImpression


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## tang daddy

neven said:


> I disagree that ADA is the same cost when everything is factored in. Most people who use ADA also dose their water column, some even root tab the ada aswell. ADA is expensive, theres no point arguing otherwise. Comparing to other enriched substrates, the 'benefits' of ada vs them hasn't really been proven, its just all on observations of people using different tanks, different lighting and different fert regimes, not very proven. ADA is just the name brand, the in thing, for people who love that by all means go for it, but for those who don't care, save the money and get more plants  If you are even more thrifty and patient, MTS is far better way to go. You can also use cat litter instead of potter's clay.
> 
> Ferts, when you know the proper sources are dirt cheap, $15 spent will last you years unless you have very large tanks (and in which case = lots of ADA).
> 
> Root tabs are expensive as you want them to be. Jobe spikes $2 lasts me 2 years. If you don't want the spikes because you are worried about urea, then perhaps you should also worry about ADA being sprayed with ammonium. You can pay a little bit more to get the 'safer' slow release fert osmocote and freeze them in ice cubes (the stick ikea trays work awesome) so its easy to insert into the substrate. If you want to pay and arm and a leg, then get the aquarium branded root tabs, still will likely be cheaper than ADA.
> 
> and yes i agree with the water change, very minor plant work can be done without needing a water change, but if you're on a removing a deeprooted plant or see a plume of sediment on a soil based tank, then water change.


Who was arguing that ADA was cheap?

ADA is not just a name brand and the IN thing.... and it has already been proven!

If it was all about the name without the results then why do they hold aquascaping competitions, why would they have a company making this soil if it was expensive crap, why would so many tank enthuasists use it....

Anyway yes its expensive and yes people dose when using it, I was saying that I didnt dose because my plants grow fine in it.

And yes there are cheaper alternatives there always will be.....heck you could even use dirt from a field and grow plants, I mean nature does it and the best part its free!

They way I see it is if people dont want to dose, or fert or use root tabs then they could use ADA which will do all of those.

Eco complete has no nutrients in it, I hardly grew little own kept plants alive when I used it, but I didnt put root tabs in the substrate nor did I coloumn dose, anyhow I was just giving a suggestion not SAYING ADA IS THE BEST AND EVERYONE MUST USE IT.

I grew plants in gravel and sand before aswell and lots of people have success with that now, there are tons of options and everyone has a budget so its best to use what you can afford.

I have also mixed ADA with other substrates like Eco and gravel, to save abit while getting the benifits!


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## 2wheelsx2

Mykiss said:


> This is a great topic. Thanks for your input guys.
> 
> Well, I use the substrate which have worked best for me and have almost converted all my shrimp tanks to ADA soil. My main concern lately is to keep shrimps alive and breeding. So, I've tried using regular aquarium gravel, ADA Amazonia I and Amazonia II, eco complete, florabase, first layer latterite, sand, Fluval Stratum, and onyx.
> 
> For growing (and black colour substrate), I prefer ADA and eco complete. The onyx (grey) is ok but I find that it likely has a lot of limestone (or something that dissolves) in it as my GH is KH is high without adding anything in it. My plants grow fine in that tank but not as good as the ADA tank. I find that I don't always have successes with the eco complete with shrimps however for plants they do well. I'm not sure why the eco isn't very good with breeding and growing out shrimps though. Maybe it's just me but I find that for both shrimps and plants it's the ADA soils that do it. This is just my experience, and that's why all my shrimp tanks have ADA soil in them.
> 
> I don't really have a lot of experience in growing plants, as my main focus are on the shrimps.


I've only ever used Eco Complete or Florabase and my experience with EC is the same as yours Pat. My Florabase tank had several hundred shrimps (as you know. ) while my EC tank had a weak population that never thrived. I must disclose that the conditions were different though. The Florabase tank was 20 gallon, high light, CO2 injected and was super heavily planted, while the EC tank was 15 gallons, med light, Excel and moderately planted, so the results are less than scientific.


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## neven

tang daddy said:


> ADA is not just a name brand and the IN thing.... and it has already been proven!


I am arguing that ADA isn't the same cost as other substrates + ferts, its still more costly. And what happens after the ferts are exhausted?

It is obvious that it grows plants better than an innert substrate without dosing, but where is the lproof that it outperforms Fluvals soil? or Red Sea's? better yet, how will they show this proof? There's also quite a few more generic versions of the same soils a hell of a lot cheaper than ADA without losing the benefits.

as for EC vs ADA for shrimp. ADA will leech ammonium into the water at start up, then it'll get tame and stabilize. They spray it with ammonium, thats the reason. It does buffer the water to a lower PH thanks to peat, which is great for shrimp keeping

EC will have a spike in hardness and PH at start up, and over time that buffering effect will diminish. Its noticeable with our tap water, but its caused by EC being sprayed with calcium carbonate. Within a few weeks to a couple of months, the buffering will stop as the calcium carbonate isn't in the actual substrate. not good to have shrimp in the tank during this phase.

Personal experience. I've used florabase long ago, i rescape too much so its cons outweighed the pro's. Thats why i still prefer Sand or fine gravel substrates that are innert now. I've had very healthy plants with both substrates though. I've noticed no difference with flourite compared to sand because of equillibrium's iron dosing and CSM+B's iron.

A pro about ADA is its one of those brands that doesn't endorse poor products, as they want to keep their reputation. So for people who don't look for alternatives its a safe bet, but it comes with an added cost


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## EDGE

The main benefit of ADA is that the ammonium and organic composition helps with the root growth at the beginning stages. ammonium help offset the need for Nitrogen during breakdown of the product. Plants take in ammonium at the root much better than Nitrate. 

nutrients uptake at the root is best at pH of 6.0 to 6.5. However, when the ammonium is depleted, there is a tendency for N deficiency at the root because organism and plants compete with each other. 

There is no need to say which product is better or proven to be better as this is the scientific fact of plant growth and ADA put a lot of thought into the design.

Second to that is the organic matter is also food for the shrimps. 

ADA had also had their share of recalls.

flourite and plain gravel would be the more cost effective choice if you do not plan to replace the substrate every couple of years. ADA gets pretty tedious to use after a few years.


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## Mykiss

Thanks everyone who is contributing as this is also a learning experience for me.

Back to Coby's question:


> What I would like in a substrate is something black, easy to plant in, non cloudy (will prerinse), keeps the pH below 7, encourages plant growth, and maybe other stuff I haven't heard of.


Eco complete and ADA are both black. I'm not sure about other plant growing mediums which are also black but if some people know of some, perhaps they can add it to this thread. I know there's also moon sand and 3M sand but I think that if the substrate is too fine, there's less available oxygen to the roots which I believe that the plants require (correct me if I'm wrong Edge). ADA and Eco complete are like little tiny pebbles so there is a bit of water between each pebble. I also find that it's relatively easy to plant stuff in it but the eco can be more jagged so this MAY damage the initial stem/root if you don't plant it carefully.

I was told that the ADA and I think Eco was not supposed to be pre rinsed when first being used. However, after being used ADA will be a bit cloudy if stirred whereas the Eco won't. Also, eco won't break down over time whereas the ADA will. That being said, I think that the mulm the ADA produces over time from the broken down soil is actually good for the plants (correct me guys if I'm wrong). Basically, if stirred, eco complete still makes the water non cloudy but ADA will leave it cloudy (can be cleared up over time with sponge filters).

As for pH, I think ADA soil will keep it lower than Eco and both encourages plant growth.

Sorry I have no comment on the Fluval stratum even though it's black but I'm guessing similar to ADA but there is some sort of difference but I'm not 100% the exact differences in make up of the soil).

That's my two cents. I hope this short summary will help. Please feel free to comment and add to it.
________
SHAKEMEUP19


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## 2wheelsx2

I don't have too much too add to this other than the fact there is also Flourite Black, to get back to the original topic, but I have not use either Flourite varieties, so can't speak to its effectiveness.


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## davej

neven said:


> I disagree that ADA is the same cost when everything is factored in. Most people who use ADA also dose their water column, some even root tab the ada aswell. ADA is expensive, theres no point arguing otherwise. Comparing to other enriched substrates, the 'benefits' of ada vs them hasn't really been proven, its just all on observations of people using different tanks, different lighting and different fert regimes, not very proven.


I have to disagree, I used flora base in the past and had mediocre results, after changing to ADA I noticed a huge improvement in growth and lushness of my plants. The only thing that changed was the substrate. Here are a few pictures to illustrate the growth i achieved.

Aug 29









Sept 11









Oct 25


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## EDGE

Is that rotala sp. mini in the middle?

You are right about sand compacting and suffocating the plants. However, if the roots are established before the sand compact, the roots can keep the sand from compacting too much.


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## davej

Yup it was rotala sp. mini.
Here is a bit closer shot of it.


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## corad96

*Sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

i use sand, because it is easy to grow plants, and when spawning the eggs don't get stuck in the rocks. also because i loos very natural compared to most rocks that are smoothed out for safety and look unnatural
that's why i choose sand.


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## Mykiss

Dave, sweet pics!

That's also a lot of downoi! wow (that's downoi right?...lol)
________
HotPleasure


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## davej

Mykiss said:


> Dave, sweet pics!
> 
> That's also a lot of downoi! wow (that's downoi right?...lol)


Thanks Pat,

Yes that is downoi, this was my tank a few years ago. Just thought it illustrated how well the ADA soil worked. Here are a few closer pics of the Limnophelia Aromatica. Pretty impressive growth for 13 days. Before the ADA my growth was nowhere near that.

Aug 29









Sept 11


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## tang daddy

I guess we see some hard proof of how Expensive soil works....LOL!!


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## SearunSimpson

I have been using the Fluval Stratum and am so far very pleased with it. It is dark, the plants root and take well, and it keeps my water in the params that I like.

BUT, I did notice that it is extremely light in weight, so when planting stems or anything, you had to really make sure that they were planted pretty deep in the first step, or they'd float back to the top. Once rooted though, they are do extremely well.


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## tang daddy

SearunSimpson said:


> I have been using the Fluval Stratum and am so far very pleased with it. It is dark, the plants root and take well, and it keeps my water in the params that I like.
> 
> BUT, I did notice that it is extremely light in weight, so when planting stems or anything, you had to really make sure that they were planted pretty deep in the first step, or they'd float back to the top. Once rooted though, they are do extremely well.


Is this the Fluval shrimp substrate of plant one?


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## neven

tang daddy said:


> I guess we see some hard proof of how Expensive soil works....LOL!!


Where is the hard proof? one personal experience to support your opinion is not hard proof.

Yes dave said it worked better for him, and showed pictures oh his tanks at various stages. He said nothing changed, but there are still a few variables. (Dave's tanks look great despite any of the arguements). How old was the flora base? did you EI fert regime? did your camera take pics at the same white balance? how much lusher/better was the growth to compare. Also did you use the power sand from ada aswell?

Limnophelia Aromatica, i've used this plant years ago and it is quite beautiful even with water column dosing and no root tab. Grows like hell too might i add. Just needs to have its stems far enough apart or it starts to look gangly at the bottom.

As i said i've used florabase aswell, i even mixed a bag with black and green gravel for a different look, heres a pic







(this tank sprung a leak in the middle of the glass, so i came home with the 29 gallon tank.) The camera wouldn't give me the right white balance so i was stuck with the yellowish hue... I've been scouring my photos for finding pics of my Limnophelia Aromatica in the 29 gallon where it really thrived but i think my wife deleted them after i had them uploaded to geocities (sites gone with all my pics :/ )


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## neven

tang daddy said:


> Is this the Fluval shrimp substrate of plant one?


i've heard the difference is grain size


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## 2wheelsx2

neven said:


> Where is the hard proof? one personal experience to support your opinion is not hard proof.


I don't think anybody is willing to spend the time to experiment for the hard proof. However, Tom Barr essentially made the point when he was here that ADA grows plants the easiest in his experience (and his experience is considerable), bar none. Does it have weaknesses and negatives? Sure it does and he states some of the points brought up here. Does it grow plants easier/better, all else being equal? Yes it does. His words, not mine.

Edit: One thing I forgot to add that Tom also mentioned. Whether one thinks the advantages of ADA is worth it is an individual choice. No one HAS to use ADA to grow plants, just like no one has to use CO2 to grow plants, but in his estimation, it was worth it. I don't use use ADA because I'm a cheapskate, and I don't plan on winning any aquascaping contests. But I think if I wanted to win a contest with my scape, I'd use ADA.


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## tang daddy

neven said:


> Where is the hard proof? one personal experience to support your opinion is not hard proof.


You're right one persons AMAZING growth in 13 days is not proof that the soil can grow plants quick.

I have grown mats of HC that filled my tank in 1.5 months of growth by only using 2 pots but hey, wheres the proof?

I was just giving an opinion (my own), the same as you were giving an opinion and I dont want want to sidetrack the original thread so I am not going to say anymore cause clearly no one has proof that ADA can have good results....

As I said before dirt can grow plants too!


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## davej

My personal experience was that after changing to ADA Amazonia soil only. (Didn't use any of their other product.) I experienced a significant increase in the growth rate and lushness of my plants. Nothing else changed. Same lighting , dosing regime and water change schedule. As for the flora base I tried it for a good 6 months and was never happy with my growth.


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## neven

davej said:


> My personal experience was that after changing to ADA Amazonia soil only. (Didn't use any of their other product.) I experienced a significant increase in the growth rate and lushness of my plants. Nothing else changed. Same lighting , dosing regime and water change schedule. As for the flora base I tried it for a good 6 months and was never happy with my growth.


then i stand corrected, i guess ADA does trump florabase.

Curious to see if the same holds true for root tabs + sand though


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## EDGE

What you want is to get the pH in the substrate to 6.00 and provide a lot of ammonium base fertilizer + leonardite + microbes/organism. provide organic matter in the substrate for the microbes to multiplied and you have a really good substrate that is not ADA.

If you are more experimental, try 2-7mm diatomite, mixed with leonardite or laterite + microbes. diatomite is naturally pH 5.7, does not buffer water, extremely porous and provide silicate for the plants without actually leeching silicate.


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## 2wheelsx2

I've been wanting to try leonardite since I saw some posts on it on the Barr Report. Where can I get some?


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## EDGE

The closest product I have come across is 

General hydroponic Diamond Black. Only thing is, I have not come across the solid granule form of diamond black in BC yet. The liquid form is available though. You want the solid form for substrate.


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## 2wheelsx2

Thanks. Yeah, the solid Diamond Black would do. Too bad.


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## dZilla

Miracle Gro Organic Gardening Soil (grabbed the wrong one should've been the potting soil) lol... But using that with a cap of play sand... working great so far


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## EDGE

Not exactly pure leonardite. General hydroponic rare earth should be a good substitute. According to their MSDS, has pyrophylitic silicate and humic acid derived from leonardite.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/msds/RareEarth.pdf

Can get that in dry form in BC for adding at the very bottom before gravel/substrate.


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