# Problem fish? or fish problem?



## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

Has anybody ever bought a fish and added it to their aquarium to just have all hell break loose? I recently picked up a 3 pleco's and added them to a fully cycled tank. Since then I have had nothing but issues with that tank and its starting to become bothersome. The tank was perfect for a entire year up until the 3 fish went in and since then I have lost 2 out of 3 and now just lost a 3rd pleco that has been in there for the better part of a year. I'm not 100% convinced that it was the fish I added but really nothing else is out of place. All 3 pleco's that died were the same species but I have 3 other adult pleco's and 2 babies in the tank that have been fine the entire time this has all been going on. I also have a few corie cats that don't seem to be bothered and the shrimp that are in there are swimming around happy as can be so its not a water quality problem or else the shrimp would be the first effected.
The last pleco of its kind in there seems to be less happy then it was before so I am not sure if something is in the tank and only effecting the one type of fish or what but they are the only thing that seems to be effected so far. 
Anybody else have something similar happen or have some advice I would appreciate it!


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## shady280 (Oct 17, 2011)

Were you feeding the plecos seperate?? Or relying on algae in the tank?? I'm wondering if there was not enough food.


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## Rogo (Mar 1, 2015)

Sometimes adding another fish (and another personality) can cause conflict and fish are now competing for food when they didn't have to prior to the arrival of the new additions.

Did you see any signs of aggression or bullying?


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

Could also be the introduction of some pathogen from wherever you got the 3 new fish. It's very hard to be certain that the fish you buy are healthy and even if they are, they may carry pathogens that your existing tank inhabitants may not have any resistance to. It's happened to all of us I'm sure.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

They were all doing great until about 2 weeks ago, They all were being fed assted green's and spirulina wafers and bloodworms for protein. 0 aggression and 0 bullying in fact the opposite I seen lots of interaction during the first while and then it slowly got less prominent. I had 2 die without any signs of stress. They literally kicked the bucket in just over a week. The 3rd one to die was my favorite and was the one I have been keeping in the same tank without any issues for a year. Now the last one in the tank seems to be breathing a little heavier then normal but all the rest of the fish in the tank seems to be just fine. I have done multiple water changes since this has all started happening and increased aeration as well. The shrimp are breeding so I find it hard to believe its going to be anything to do with poor water, I have done tests and it shows no signs of ammonia or nitrates/nitrites. Its a planted tank but there has been no new plants added since the adding of these pleco's.


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## Rogo (Mar 1, 2015)

Is it possible your fish got food poisoning?

Years ago I bought bloodworms from a pet store (I won't mention the name) and once I started feeding them to my fish they started getting sick (many died, and fast!). Everything was perfect in the tank (parameters, behavior, etc). I eventually noticed a small bulge at the bottom half of the bag of bloodworms; it turns out they had been thawed and refrozen..big no-no with meat. I confronted the pet store and they admitted their freezer broke and everything in it thawed, and offered me an apology and a $25 credit. I had been going there for years but haven't been back...

Basically, my fish got food poisoning.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

I doubt that but I don't have any experience with fish food poisoning so I guess I wouldn't know the symptoms. 
I feed most of my fish the same bloodworm's and a decent amount of them. I have Geo's and EBJD's along with a Goby and Cupid cichlid SAE's and even other pleco's in my main tanks eat the blood worms daily and they all seem to be happy as a clam. 

If I was to make a judgement call I would say the 1 or all of the 3 plecos I recently bought had a pathogen or virus that was passed along. Just makes me so damn angry as I expressed concern when buying the pleco's especially 1 that had some fin damage and a a bit of red on the underside of the body before he was even netted. I was assured they were healthy, So I didn't do any quarantining or deworming or prepping before they were added to the tank. Basically the same story here I wont be back because I lost out on $120 of fish and I think I might loose another one still which is another $40.... Not to mention this isn't the first mishap with a bad fish from this company.

I would like to save the last one If I can but have no idea where to begin to be honest....


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Chase, my fish had been dewormed. QT fish is normally up to the buyer. The red part in only one of the three fish near the base of one of the back fin is normal as newly import fish all are packed in one huge bag. they normally heal.

What you bought is l257 tigris. They are the type of plecos that need faster current as the body profile is very low to the ground. I also mentioned many times to you that bloodworm should be used as a treat than daily, especially for algae eating pleco like the tigris. 

You mentioned also that this is not your first time you bought a bad fish from me. The angel that has a problem from me, i got it from joe here. We both did not notice any hole in the head before i got them from his tank, and the time that the pair was in my tank. And i still gave you the money back for the angel for the benefit of the doubt. Did i not? 

Now the plecos you are having problem with, you told me they died about a week later in your tank. and i sorry but what should i do?

I dont have any issue with you being upset with me and i still comment on your post with advise. but i just cant warranty fish once they leave my tanks. And i did that for you for the angel.

Lastly, if only the type of plecos, the tigris type is having problem, wouldnt it because their environment cause? If it is something else, it would have affect other fish alike as well. I feed my l235 flyer cat with leaves like lettuce. I found them they cant and most of the time will be better with leafy type of food than say zucchini or aglae wafer. Not saying all will do that but best is to give them what they like to match their natural food.

I was quite happy to hear from you that the newly added fish were fine and act like pair in your tank in the beginning in your tank.

If you have any questions, feel free to pm me. Rather you are going to do any more purchase from me, i will still give you my most honest opinion.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

ps: i showed you all three of them were eating and therefore no concaved stomachs before i handed them to you. So we can rule out that they were not eating problem.


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Sometimes it may be the fish keeper and not the fish or where the fish was bought. Need to consider whether the tank has the footprint area, hiding spots, caves. 

I think plecos can be very territorial. sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. My tank is packed with aggressive plecos, but I don't dare put another one in for the sake of territorial infighting.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

charles said:


> ps: i showed you all three of them were eating and therefore no concaved stomachs before i handed them to you. So we can rule out that they were not eating problem.





charles said:


> Chase, my fish had been dewormed. QT fish is normally up to the buyer. The red part in only one of the three fish near the base of one of the back fin is normal as newly import fish all are packed in one huge bag. they normally heal.
> 
> What you bought is l257 tigris. They are the type of plecos that need faster current as the body profile is very low to the ground. I also mentioned many times to you that bloodworm should be used as a treat than daily, especially for algae eating pleco like the tigris.
> 
> ...


I wish I had kept our messages. I picked up the fish the first or second day it was in the tank so it hadn't even adjusted or settled in yet. The fact that I was able to keep a higher grade specimen without any issue for nearly a year and it actually flourished and grew has doubt in my mind that my habitat was unsuited to the fish.

Your absolutely right about it being the buyers choice, I was excited that you got the fish I asked you to order in so I wanted to make sure I purchased them so you would order stuff I asked again. I have been told by you specifically you ordered the geophagus for a customer and he ended up only wanting a couple so you got stuck with a bunch and you would never do that for him again. I wasn't wanting to be "that guy". You assured me they were in great health and were eating but there really was 0 evidence that they had except that they were on the side of the glass when you caught them.

I read that the 257 tigris needs a high protein diet of bloodworms and other such foods to help it acclimatize properly when first added to the tank otherwise the survival rate isn't so high. A sunken stomach will not happen in 2 days in your tank so saying something like that is nonsense unless your implying the fish was received in bad health.

As for the redding on the fish. The last pleco that I watched died had the exact same marking's on the underbelly when I was trying to nurse him back to life.

As for you "warrantying" the angle? Not so much I had posted the pictures of BIG massive holes in the fishes head as soon as I got home and posted them online to ask about it. I have never had a doubt in my mind that the fish had that from the start it went into the tank. There was no benefit of the doubt on that purchase you said it was probably damage from the ride but they sat on my lap in the back seat without them moving around. If there was damage it probably would be the person who packed the fish together not the buyers fault.

I have had very low mortality rates in my tanks, I spend roughly 3-4 hours MININUM (more often its double that number) looking into my tanks or working on them a day since they are all in my bedroom I find that I can watch and notice when something isn't right pretty damn fast. I know the behavior of each of my fish and know when something is fighting with another or if something is in distress.

I wasn't going to bring you into this thread and had no intentions of using names but it looks like that is out the window now. I have been more then a loyal customer to you, I have forwarded people on many accounts so I would hope that you would show respect to me and always give me your honest opinion. I'm not saying that I am 100% not at fault for any part of the fishes death but I don't think that it was a fully healthy fish like I was told.

Picture number 1 is One of the second set of 257 I purchased from you and Picture 2 was my pride and joy and the one I kept for almost a year without complications of any sort. Notice the extremely large difference in quality of fish? There was a reason I was worried from the beginning because the first ones look more like a squished king tiger and My older one is what they look like online if you type in the name 257 tigris.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

About the angel - I said it could have been injure by the spine of the other angel in the bag because they were not injure or have any problem in my tank nor in Joe's tank when I got them. That is the only explanation I can think of of how it got into problem in your tank.

As for the plecos, I honestly think the only one that has a red part on the base of one of its back pelvic fin will be fine. It happens often. If I don't think it is, I would not ask you to take it home. I don't mind losing a sale. That extra $40 of one fish is not going to make or break my day. In fact, I wish either you insist of me taking the fish out, or I convince you not to take it home so this will not happen. The fish was at my care for 2+ days before you took them home. They were medicated on day 1. As for the empty stomach, the common practice is 48 hours without feeding before shipping, another 36 hours before they get to me, and then 2+ days before you picked them up. If they have not been eating, they will for sure show a concave stomach. And remember how clean the tank was? Not a single green/brown algae covering anywhere compare to before that you can barely see through the tank. And the water column was filled with the algae poo.

Try to think of it this way, if a fish is carrying something, it will not only affect one type of plecos, it will also affect corys, other types of plecos, cichlids, etc. Disease and pest doesn't discriminate what fish it is. The fact that you only experiencing problem with a sinlge type of pleco have a very good chance that it is environment cause. I found that this type of plecos eat algae, even better than bristlenose. Their favorite food is the green/brown aglae. If you want to feed them higher protein diet, feed them pellets or wafer. Some of them contains a higher protein diet than say frozen bloodworm and have way less chance for the rotting in the fish like frozen bloodworm; in my opinion. If anything, please take my advise on quit feeding bloodworm as your daily diet to your fish. It is meant for treat but not a stable diet. Fish will not make and choose that this food too much is not good for it and continue to eat it till problem arise.

You have faulted me in your mind already so nothing I said will make sense to you. I have stated what I think happened to the fish. Rather you believe it, it is up to you. It is fine that you choose not to come here again. I really don't mind losing a customer. But I hate to lose a fish buddy friend. Just doesn't worth it. If you think it is my fault, I will not credit you but will refund you the cost of that one fish which has a red mark on its base of one of its pelvic fin. Come in person or send someone if you don't want to come here again. But let me know who you are sending. I don't want to credit you as you mention you don't want to do any business again so giving you credit doesn't make any sense. 

And again, I apology of what happen to your fish. But I am not a chain store. I do not warranty fish that will stay alive in anyone's tank. just too many variables...


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

and if you want me to e-transfer or paypal, let me know the email address. So you don't have to come or bother your friends. Just thought I would give you that option as well.

Again, keep in mind I choose to refund you for that one fish not because you put this out. I just value the talk about fish, camping axes, snowboarding, and paintball guns, and in general, life...

As for the future, anyone who comes to buy fish, please examine the fish with your best judgement. And I will do the same. If anytime you are uncomfortable about a mark, a dust on tail, an extra fin on the fish, missing an eye, please let me know you don't want it on the spot. I really don't mind opening the bag again and remove the fish. But once you accept it, there will not be an warranty after you leave with the fish. I hope this is clear.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm requesting this be discussed further in a PM between the two of you. I don't believe at this point it's necessary to continue conversation in public.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

effox said:


> I'm requesting this be discussed further in a PM between the two of you. I don't believe at this point it's necessary to continue conversation in public.


I started this thread to ask about my fish because I was worried. I am still worried about the rest of the fish in my tank and was hoping somebody would shed some light but that is not happening... If I am not welcome to discus the fish at all then I see no point in me coming back to the forum at all anymore.

I also lost every single Dwarf hasbrosus cory that was put in that tank if it makes a difference or is a possible suspect.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Chase, if I have to think of something, I would think cutting back on frozen bloodworm will help. 

Nutrients

6-8% protein and iron rich. However, it doesn't have a wide range of amino acids, so do not feed as a primary food supply.
Give it as a treat once or twice per week.
Not recommended as a single source of food due to its very low protein levels.

It is not a good source of daily feed espiecally for algae glazer plecos.


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

can you give us more detail about your tank, tankmates & water parameters?


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

C-kidder said:


> I started this thread to ask about my fish because I was worried. I am still worried about the rest of the fish in my tank and was hoping somebody would shed some light but that is not happening... If I am not welcome to discus the fish at all then I see no point in me coming back to the forum at all anymore.
> 
> I also lost every single Dwarf hasbrosus cory that was put in that tank if it makes a difference or is a possible suspect.


I'm simply requesting any further back and forth be in private. You're more than welcome to discuss this aspect, I didn't close the thread because of that. You know you are welcome here, and if you don't, let me simply state that you definitely are.

I hope someone can help you get this rectified, I know I was extremely upset when I was losing my pets.

Cheers,
Chris


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

jhj0112 said:


> can you give us more detail about your tank, tankmates & water parameters?


Tank is a 33 long so it has a 13'' wide and 48'' long footprint that is 13.5'' tall. Extremely fine Sand bottom with small smooth river rocks mixed throughout with a couple larger rocks and 2 pieces of wood. A vast assortment of plants 90% of which I have no idea what the names are unfortunately. But would be willing to picture the tank if needed. Before I was running a fluval 306 on it with 2 full sized sponge filters and a 600 GPH powerhead that was creating current in the tank. Lighting is a Beamsworks 48'' Led that is run on a low setting 90% of the time and rarely is ever on full power. 
I just removed the filter after all the deaths since its really not needed for shrimp or what I have stocked in the tank anymore. I intend on moving a couple pleco's out of the tank sooner then later. Now its running on just 2 sponge filters and the power head for circulation and extra aeration.

Edit: Food schedule and diet consists of zucchini and peas that are in the tank 99% of the time either one or the other. I feed them a pinch of osi flakes crushed up in the morning with a pinch of tetra color bits crushed up as well. again around dinner time the same thing and then before I go to bed I feed them blood worms usually or some treat food like brine shrimp tubifex or something along those lines I have several omega one freeze dried products I swap throughout at random. spirulina wafers get tossed in at lights out every second day or so

Ph is at 7.5 steady even after water changes it never flucuates more then .2 to .4. Nitrates Nitrites and ammonia have all stayed at 0 or very low trace levels and currently is at 0 because I have been doing daily or every 2nd day water changes on the tank.

Tank mates are 9-10 Agazzi cory's 
1 Silvertip juvenile pleco 3'' roghly
1 Calico pleco about 2.5 '' roughly
2 juvinile megaclowns 1.5'' roughly
1 pleco I dont know the name of but If I remember correctly it was un named and only had a L Number. I will photo if needed its roughly 3-4'' max
1 Tigris pleco which is about 3 ''
Random number of breeding cherry, red rilli and blue velvet shrimp. 
MTS snail infestation in this tank I have been dealing with by feeding them to my other fish.
Few ramshorns that are trying to breed as well that I have been controlling.
I think that is everything in terms of tank and stock in the tank but I will edit if something else comes to mind that I forgot about it.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

charles said:


> Chase, if I have to think of something, I would think cutting back on frozen bloodworm will help.
> 
> Nutrients
> 
> ...


Here is a copy and paste from the package of the bloodworms. I probably will try changing the diet but bloodworms have much more protein then 6-8%

Ingredients: Blood Worms, Vitamin E supplement.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 55%
Crude Fat (min.) 3%
Crude Fiber (max.) 5%
Moisture (max.) 5%


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

This is just my short experience... I also had a L257 with 3 breeding BNPs and 1 L201 gold spot (my favorite pleco) in 48"long and 16" wide..

I find that my BNPs were very aggressive to both L257 and L201 resulting both of them hiding most of the time.. I ended up losing L257 after few months. I'm not an expert on plecos but I felt that it was not enough space for all plecos.. 

I see that you have 6 plecos in your tank and the tension/stress could be increased when new plecos were introduced.. 
when stress increases, it can lower their immune system. that's when they get sick... 

this is the best guess I can come up with.. I'm not saying it is your fault or others fault.. 

I'm sorry that you are losing your fishes.. I was going to sell my L257 to you when you were looking for it but he/she was doing that well... I was mad when I lost mine. it really sucks...

P.S. my L257 was just like the one in the second picture.. At first, I thought I was looking at king tiger as well when I looked at the first picture.. once again I'm not an expert on plecos


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

What brand of bloodworms do you use? Mine only have 8% protein


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

My hikari frozen bloodworm (the one that goes through UV) has only 6.8% protein.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

I feed 2 diffrent kinds but that is the package of the omega one freeze dried bloodworms.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Did a little reading. Both live and frozen bloodworm has less than 10% protein. For soem reason, the freeze dried one, which has the least nutritional value has somewhere close to 50% protein. How is something less nutritional has more protein than its live or frozen form? I dont get that myself.

And lastly, freeze dried almost always float. I dont think your pleco will be able to get them, the less aggressive fish for sure wont get them.

Good food for cichlids or discus. But i believe not a stable everyday diet for plecos rather it is frozen or freeze dried in my opinion.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

charles said:


> Did a little reading. Both live and frozen bloodworm has less than 10% protein. For soem reason, the freeze dried one, which has the least nutritional value has somewhere close to 50% protein. How is something less nutritional has more protein than its live or frozen form? I dont get that myself.
> 
> And lastly, freeze dried almost always float. I dont think your pleco will be able to get them, the less aggressive fish for sure wont get them.
> 
> Good food for cichlids or discus. But i believe not a stable everyday diet for plecos rather it is frozen or freeze dried in my opinion.


Makes sense to me since its all by weights. If you have frozen ones they have a majority water weight from being frozen. If you were to remove all the water weight you would end up with 10% or less of the weight you originally started with.
Example of it for human consumption is the way we cure beef jerky. Another example is like the salt content in sea water. If you let it evaporate in a cup, the water level is reduced but the salt level will stay the same and actually increase in % since it cannot be evaporated like the water.
Its been a while since I was in school but it does make logical sense in my brain.

The Freeze dried stuff does float but it sinks after 30 mins or less. I have never had to scoop it off the top of any tank I put it into. Since I don't have any middle to top swimming fish in the tank., It always will make it down for the bottom feeders eventually.


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