# Dale jordan - very unsatisfactory experience



## josephl

I ordered 4 very expensive wild discus from Dale Jordan in the fall and the came in very poorly shipped. While the fish were only shipped from Winnipeg, the bags that 2 of the fish were shipped in were punctured, and there was a significant amount of water sloshing around in the styrofoam box.

After adding the fish into my tank, the casualty count was super high, about 15 gorgeous discus grown out from April’s stock, thank goodness Peter took a couple before hand.

While you would expect that someone who is ‘supposedly’ a reliable dealer would ship healthy disease free stock, and while I have bought stock from several other sources with no disease problems, including from Tom at Rainforest Farms, I do take responsibility for not quarantining his fish and as a result, introducing disease from the Dale Jordan stock to my healthy stock.

What I do have problems with are the following:

The shipping policies on his site clearly state that all fish would be triple bagged – none of the fish were triple bagged. As a result, the bags for 2 of the 4 fish were leaking badly, with the water in one of the bags being really cloudy with what looked like floating scales. The fish in the two bags while still alive, were really badly burnt.

The fish arrived late at night from Winnipeg and I went to the airport to pick it up late that night, where most people might have left it till the next morning. Only by picking the fish up that night, were the fish still alive. Had I waited till the next morning, the bags would have been empty and the fish dead. Ironically had the fish died, I would have had 2 cases for a claim, against (1) the lack of triple bagging and (2) against the live arrival guarantee

As it was, I had no choice but to put the affected fish directly into the tank that night and I promptly notified Dale Jordan of the problem.

Dale’s response was (1) to blame Spencer Jack for poor shipping practices(though I have bought previously from Spencer Jack with no shipping issues) and he suggested that I add aquarium salt. When I subsequently sent him pictures of how poorly the fish were doing, he suggested that I add Erythromycin to the tank, which I declined to do as I considered that to be horrible advice, as it is my understanding that Erythromycin kills all bacteria, good and bad, which would have resulted in my biological filters possibly crashing, causing even more stress to the fish. 

When I mentioned on Simply Discus that I had issues with Dale’s discus, I was personally attacked by him, with him calling me immature and copying two friends of mine that need not have gotten involved in this dispute.

To this date, I have yet to see any replacement fish from Dale Jordan. While 2 of the really expensive discus I purchased from him died, he has only offered to replace one fish, and this only on condition that a local fish store order from him, which of course is unfair.

Mistakes happen, we all make them. However, when a buyer spends a lot of mone on expensive fish and when seller makes the mistake, shipping fish not in accordance with their stated terms and conditions and shipping policy and the fish come in barely alive, it is my humble opinion that it is unfair for the seller to claim that the expensive fish were alive, therefore, only one replacement is necessary for 2 expensive fish.

This is getting me all bitter again. I'll dig up some pictures of the fish and I wonder if contacting the Better Business Bureau of Winnipeg will help.


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## josephl

*$200 plus that 'arrived alive' - didn't make it*

The fish I was supposed to get based on an e-mail received from Dale Jordan










The fish I actually got..


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## josephl

*Mari Mari Heckel immediately upon arrival*

The fish I was supposed to get based on an e-mail from Dale Jordan










The fish I actually got from Dale Jordan


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## MadgicBug

Wow....I was humming and hawing about getting some for a differnt tank.

Did the fish arrive all sickly looking or did it did it quickly evolved that way?


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## josephl

MadgicBug said:


> Wow....I was humming and hawing about getting some for a differnt tank.
> 
> Did the fish arrive all sickly looking or did it did it quickly evolved that way?


The pics I posted were directly out of the bag so I'm not sure if sickly is the word but it sure wasn't what I paid for but apparently they arrived 'alive' so I should have been satisfied.

I would go ahead and get wilds, they are quite different and beautiful in their own way, very different from domestics. N/A(shelley) does amazingly well with them, just don't do what I did and get ripped off


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## Peterchow

Hi Joseph,

I totally support your rationale. We all make mistakes in life but the main thing is to rectify our mistakes and move on with our life. In your situtaion, all evidences had proven the supplier was at total FAULT, and he should compensate you fully without hesitation. This is the cost and risk of running a business. Business reputation & reliability are much more important than looking for ways to shift responsibilities.

Based on my personal dealings with you over the years and your long & very reputable association with this forum, I fully endorse your personal credibility.


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## hp10BII

Sorry for your losses, it should never happen. I agree with Peter about mistakes - nobody's perfect but at least own up to them when they happen.

I had plans on dealing with the same vendor - I think I need to change my plans.


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## 2wheelsx2

Man, hearing the full stories just puts that sinking feeling in my stomach. In my case, it was surely entirely my fault, but it's horrible watching fish after fish die without being able to do anything about it. I'm glad this story got out here.


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## MELLO

WOW!!! that dosen't look like a $200 discus to me.


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## gklaw

Discus Dave;... I will never buy discus locally again.[/quote said:


> I'm sorry to hear about the sad stories bad rip offs. However, I am determined not to let my bad experience cause me to lose faith in people and always being weary of being ripped off.
> 
> I think so far I have been lucky in collecting almost 40 discus from member, CL and from April. Did loss 6 or so but mostly have to blame them on myself and pure chance. The members I dealt with are A+ both in the good deal and quality of fish. All the discus I picked up from CL are strong and healthy including one I initially questioned.
> 
> I certain will not be so determined as not to buy local again. Having been in the hobby for 12 years, I recognized every store has its own strength and weakness and never had any real issue with any particular store. There is simply soemthing in every store I learned to appreciate and benefited from.
> 
> As long as we are honest with them with our concerns and work with them, I believe we can develop some strong local businesses that are profitable and we can trust.
> 
> That's just my opinion recognizing that I have just a beginner in discus keeping.
> 
> And yes, to those who intentionally rip people off or not having enough back-bone to live up to their end of the deal: there is better way to live and to do business. We need to look further down the road.


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## seanyuki

hi Joe.....sorry for your loses and poor shipping by the seller....adult discus spinous dorsal fins are very sharp and easily pierce the bags.....imo at least use 4 mil thick bags and triple bagged to be on the safe side......the photos he sent and the ones you received looked sick from the start.

thanks for sharing your experiences with us.


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## josephl

seanyuki said:


> hi Joe.....sorry for your loses and poor shipping by the seller....adult discus spinous dorsal fins are very sharp and easily pierce the bags.....imo at least use 4 mil thick bags and triple bagged to be on the safe side......the photos he sent and the ones you received looked sick from the start.
> 
> thanks for sharing your experiences with us.


Hey Francis,

I agree that shipping adult discus is tricky and things happen.

Here is a choice quote from one of the e-mails I received from DALE JORDAN in seeking to get replacement fish

"Shipping adult Discus is always touchy and fins puncture bags....you keep saying "shipped properly"....they were BUT BAGS BREAK and my policy is live arrival !!!!!!!!!!!!"

My issue is that DALE JORDAN's shipping policies were to triple bag, all the fish were double bagged and then instead of dealing with it, his response was that his policy was live delivery. Yes, both fish arrived alive, no, they were clearly not the fish I purchased and were not worth the $200 each I paid for them.

So far, the only resolution I have been offered is 1 make up fish in place of the two that died and only if one of the LFS orders more fish from him


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## gimlid

From the photos I think the Discus may have actually had oxygen deprivation. I have see this before in larger fish. the eyes cloud over and the fins rot away quickly. Looks very similar to the case I saw.
Sorry for your loss.


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## target

That's terrible! Those fish were stunners. What a waste. And sorry you are having to fight now.


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## 2wheelsx2

I don't think any experiences shipper should use that excuse. I mean people ship Acanthicus and Pseudacanthicus all over the world without problems, and those fish are worth in excess of $1000 in adult form. Discus don't have more spines than those. Saying that bags break is like a restaurant giving you botulism and then saying that food spoils. Very very irresponsible.


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## Nicklfire

wow, horrible to hear that happened to you.

Aside from everything.. basically you asked for a refund and he said no? Did he have any type of guarantee or refund policy or ADOA (almost dead on arrival)

I not sure if that was covered already, thought i read the whole thread.


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## Chappy

Over the last couple of years, I've helped April unpack countless discus that have been shipped from Asia and South America. I think in all that time, I have seen 2 DOA's. I saw the first batch of wild tefes Charles got in last summer while they were still in bags. No problems with the fish and/or packing. These fish endured HOURS and sometimes days in transport. No punctured bags, no loss of oxygen. The fish from Dale Jordan came from WINNIPEG!!!!!!!!!! 2 out of 5 bags had water and air loss. 2 OUT OF 5!!!!!!! The seller admitted that it was difficult shipping adult discus. If you know there is the potential for problems, THEN MAKE THE EFFORT TO SHIP THEM PROPERLY, starting with using the correct bags. They exist; they're out there. The bags that April's wilds came in were so thick, we could barely cut through them with BOX CUTTERS. Double bagging adult discus in bags that aren't much thicker than grocery store vegetable bags is ridiculous. If the fish had stayed at the airport overnight, this wouldn't even be an issue - both would have died. Absolutely no doubt. But because they were alive, Joe tried to save them. Doing so, something ended up in his tank that nearly destroyed his entire collection. He has never ONCE asked for compensation for the damage to his fish - he accepts that responsibility. All he ever asked Dale for was replacement or compensation for the first two fish that died DUE TO THE STRESS AND DAMAGE OF POOR SHIPPING. Dale refused and instead chose to hide behind his "BUT BAGS BREAK and my policy is live arrival" policy.


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## catgoldfish

I deal alot with people in my job and our policy is the customer is always right. No matter what they did or how they did it they're always right. That builds excellent customer satisfaction and makes great companies great. Walmart , Costco, Sears etc. are all very successful because of their no hassle return policies. All it takes is one bad experience and the word spreads. Sorry for your loss. I hope your bad experience gets resolved.


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## MELLO

We had the same problem before when we ordered from FISHKING. The fish were carriers of some disease still I mixed them with my old stock with no quarantine. Guess what happened? all my discus stock got the disease. My fault! NO QUARANTINE. The only good thing about what FISHKING did for me is that they replace all the fish that I ordered plus all the old stock (24 discus) that got infected by the disease. Although some of the replacement discus are not the best shape, size etc. But for me I was happy that they were true to their word and replaced all my fish. 
One unhappy customer like Joseph is not good for business and his name. Words spread around and people that are reading this thread won't even order from him anymore cause of what they read and see. Sometimes business you have to take a loss to gain more. Good customer service and good reputation is the best advertising for your business. From what happened here this could have been resolved in a better way. But I guess the seller's choose not too.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail

Please go ahead and report to Better Business Bureau! Even if your case doesn't get resolved it will show up in comments as a complaint so others can see. If I remember right there is a percentage or point rating system for Sellers. I've done this before as a threat and was compensated. I believe it's important others know of your dilemma,and at least his rating gets a well deserved zing. Just Google BBB Winnipeg.


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## discuspaul

MELLO said:


> We had the same problem before when we ordered from FISHKING. The fish were carriers of some disease still I mixed them with my old stock with no quarantine. Guess what happened? all my discus stock got the disease. My fault! NO QUARANTINE. The only good thing about what FISHKING did for me is that they replace all the fish that I ordered plus all the old stock (24 discus) that got infected by the disease. Although some of the replacement discus are not the best shape, size etc. But for me I was happy that they were true to their word and replaced all my fish.
> One unhappy customer like Joseph is not good for business and his name. Words spread around and people that are reading this thread won't even order from him anymore cause of what they read and see. Sometimes business you have to take a loss to gain more. Good customer service and good reputation is the best advertising for your business. From what happened here this could have been resolved in a better way. But I guess the seller's choose not too.


Agree.

If Dale Jordan chooses to do nothing more to compensate Joseph, then he has obviously made a 'reputational' choice that will surely result in seriously negative business consequences. BC may not be a large market for him, but surely he will know that he will have to reckon with no further BC business for him for a very long time. And the word will spread to other parts of Canada, and the U.S. as well.


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## dalejordan

Why don't we really tell the truth Joseph and fill these nice people in PROPERLY !!!!

1. the fish arrived and the bags were punctured through, that IS THE TRUTH
2. I was not told of this until three days after and by your friend... NOT YOU
3. you were contacted by me AS SOON AS I HEARD OF THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( I have all the emails between Joe and I and will be willing to share this OPENLY !!!!!!!!!!! ) 
4. I told you to salt your tank because you are looking at AMMONIA burn from lack of water 
5. I was contacted another five days later to say the fish died and the other had white tips on the fins. I told him to "treat" the tank with a simple Erythromycin or Melafix and ...now the most important part......I expected an reply to that email
6. ten days later he posted a negative post on simply ???? 
- I had no idea the "second " fish died !
- I would have been MORE THAN willing to refund, replace...whatever it took !!!!
- I was waiting for an answer to my suggestion only to find out he REFUSES to medicate his tank
- as hobbyists...do you not try to save a savable fish if you can ?????
7. needless to say ...I was very upset !! His response was to strong arm me by saying "you rectify this and I will pull my negative posts " 

I do not take lightly to this trying to pressure his way in little tantrums like that. I REFUSED to deal with him again BUT ( Another important part !!! ) agreed to replace the ONE fish and to ship with April next time she received an order from Spencer. THIS HE AGREED TO and APRIL with attest to this !!!!!!!!

SO HE WE GO AGAIN.....now I have heard nothing of that, and here's another post !!!!

Once again dear reader , I will be willing to share all correspondence to those who REALLY care !! And those of you who know us BOTH ....you know how I deal with my customers ! 

I will not deal with this type of person, that as far as I'm willing to go


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## Nicklfire

I think it's great that both parties can discuss this opening (if they so choose), again i think that both the original poster and the supplier should talk in closed conversation regarding the disagreement. It seems like the supplier (thus far) is willing to talk.

There are always 2 sides to a converation and from my experience threads like this hurt a reputation badly so i can admire dale wanting to resolve this.

I have no sides on either behalf and would only hope both parties can find a mutual agreement that they both are happy with.

This is a open forum, so any further posts please be professional and respectful to each other or else we will have no choice but to close the thread. I always want people to defend themselves given the chance


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## bonsai dave

Joseph it suck about what you have gone through.I hope this can get resolved.I'm not taking sides in this, But as for Deal with Dale Jordan and Dale as a person. He is a great guy and go out of his way to help when ever i have any issues with my discus or life in general. He went out of his way to help Lisa and I with our problems with capillaria worms when no body else would . He has called me many of time out his own pocket to answer my questions.I will continue to do business with dale in the future. No one is perfect as humans we all make mistakes and it's easy to judge people when both side of the story has not be told.


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## Mferko

dalejordan said:


> Why don't we really tell the truth Joseph and fill these nice people in PROPERLY !!!!
> 
> 1. the fish arrived and the bags were punctured through, that IS THE TRUTH
> 2. I was not told of this until three days after and by your friend... NOT YOU
> 3. you were contacted by me AS SOON AS I HEARD OF THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( I have all the emails between Joe and I and will be willing to share this OPENLY !!!!!!!!!!! )
> 4. I told you to salt your tank because you are looking at AMMONIA burn from lack of water
> 5. I was contacted another five days later to say the fish died and the other had white tips on the fins. I told him to "treat" the tank with a simple Erythromycin or Melafix and ...now the most important part......I expected an reply to that email
> 6. ten days later he posted a negative post on simply ????
> - I had no idea the "second " fish died !
> - I would have been MORE THAN willing to refund, replace...whatever it took !!!!
> - I was waiting for an answer to my suggestion only to find out he REFUSES to medicate his tank
> - as hobbyists...do you not try to save a savable fish if you can ?????
> 7. needless to say ...I was very upset !! His response was to strong arm me by saying "you rectify this and I will pull my negative posts "
> 
> I do not take lightly to this trying to pressure his way in little tantrums like that. I REFUSED to deal with him again BUT ( Another important part !!! ) agreed to replace the ONE fish and to ship with April next time she received an order from Spencer. THIS HE AGREED TO and APRIL with attest to this !!!!!!!!
> 
> SO HE WE GO AGAIN.....now I have heard nothing of that, and here's another post !!!!
> 
> Once again dear reader , I will be willing to share all correspondence to those who REALLY care !! And those of you who know us BOTH ....you know how I deal with my customers !
> 
> I will not deal with this type of person, that as far as I'm willing to go


wow, 2 very different stories, hopefully you guys get this resolved soon and the slander can stop...
and hopefully more quarantine tanks get setup after this story (and mello's) gets around, dont risk putting sick or possibly sick fish into your tank full of healthy ones!!! 

sorry to hear about this fishy tragedy


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## josephl

While I could go through and discuss the response point by point, I think the issues here are:

If one is a reputable retailer - does one subscribe to the age old theory that the customer is always right?

The stated shipping policy on the retailers website is that fish will be shipped triple bagged. All of the fish came in double bagged. 

Yes, the fish came in 'alive', though with leaking bags(and double bagged, not triple bagged), with burnt fins and the suggestion was that I should treat them. 

I wonder if I took the analogy of buying a new computer on line with a guarantee that the computer will be working when it arrived. When I pick up the computer, it had obviously been beat up in shipping. When I contact the retailer, all he would do was to give me advice as to how to fix the problems and tells me that his warranty is that the computer was only supposed to be working when it arrived...BUT I PAID FOR AND BOUGHT A BRAND NEW COMPUTER!!

In this case, your customer(me) paid for some very expensive wild discus from you. The fish came in damaged. 

If you put aside the he said/she said about communication, the issue is still that the really expensive fish came in damaged and subsequently died but the issue is that they still came in damaged.

Yes, your policy is live arrival guarantee only but your policy is also triple bagging which did not occur and the fish came in damaged.

So once again, if you take the emotion behind the he said/she said out of it, the point is that:

1 Contrary to your shipping policy, you shipped double bagged instead of triple bagged

2 The expensive discus you were selling ended up coming in 'damaged' and looking nothing like the pictures you sent

3 (All emotion aside) is your business policy to replace the 2 fish that came in damaged or stand behind the fact that they came in alive though in leaking bags(not shipped in accordance with your shipping policy).

Thats the crux of the matter really if you look at the pure business transaction, without emotion, you didn't ship according to your policy and the fish came in damaged so is your policy to replace both fish, one fish or no fish? Its a pure business policy decision.

Finally if the decision was to replace one or two of the fish, I'm not quite sure why the settlement would be contingent on a Vancouver Pet Store ordering from another supplier in Winnipeg. Again, another pure business decision as to whether or not $45 in shipping replacement fish is just a cost of doing business to keep a customer happy.

My goal in this reponse is to take all the emotion out of the situation and point out just the pure business matters. I hope that I have had some success so we can settle this matter once and for all.


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## 2wheelsx2

If it's just a matter of shipping, why not have the customer cover shipping and replace both fish? That part I cannot understand. Seems to me that with $200 fish, the shipping is the cheap part.


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## AWW

Joseph, I think dale is just upset because you didnt give him the prompt responces he was looking for, if you had, then things might have gone a little differently. 

That being said, regardless of how the information got to you, dale, you should be taking it into your own hands to fix the issue. I think replacing the fish is what needs be done, You made a mistake in shipping them. Dale, i understand your a reputable supplier, i trust dave in saying this. Resolve the matter privately between yourselves, then report what happened so your company does not get a bad wrap. We don't need to hear the arguing on the forum. Debate is often good, in this case, to much arguing


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## josephl

2wheelsx2 said:


> If it's just a matter of shipping, why not have the customer cover shipping and replace both fish? That part I cannot understand. Seems to me that with $200 fish, the shipping is the cheap part.


That is a solution that makes complete sense to me once you take all of the emotion out of the situation and we do have pics of the fish to be replaced.


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## josephl

AWW said:


> Joseph, I think dale is just upset because you didnt give him the prompt responces he was looking for, if you had, then things might have gone a little differently.
> 
> That being said, regardless of how the information got to you, dale, you should be taking it into your own hands to fix the issue. I think replacing the fish is what needs be done, You made a mistake in shipping them. Dale, i understand your a reputable supplier, i trust dave in saying this. Resolve the matter privately between yourselves, then report what happened so your company does not get a bad wrap. We don't need to hear the arguing on the forum. Debate is often good, in this case, to much arguing


Agreed, lets take it off the Board and we will update you on the solution that we reached.

Dale, you have my e-mail or you can contact me through pm here

Joe


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## dalejordan

I'm sorry, I do not frequent this forum. I only knew of this as a good customer emailed me to give you heads up.

YES, I agree that the "arguing" is not forum appropriate. However, I am posting this because I wanted you as the reader to know exactly what is happening and as my witness. Also, and most important, I'm convinced this will not stop until he gets everything he wants !!!! Like a child, he will continue to throw his tantrums until he gets his candy.

So, here is what I'm doing. I take complete responsibility for the ONE fish ( Heckle ) that arrived with a broken bag. I would of done ANYTHING for him if there was some sort of normal communications ( one fish or all five ). The one fish IS WHAT HE AGREED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will NOT take responsibility for a fish that succumb to simple ammonia burns to its fins two weeks after shipping. Any simple aquarium hobbyist knows how to handle that....if this one cant...I'm sorry.

$220 dollars will be refunded to the person that originally sent me money AND the one who reported this guys problems .

I now consider the matter closed and will NOT go any further


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## Mferko

dalejordan said:


> I'm sorry, I do not frequent this forum. I only new of this as a good customer emailed me to give you heads up.
> 
> YES, I agree that the "arguing" is not forum appropriate. However, I am posting this because I wanted you as the reader to know exactly what is happening and as my witness. Also, and most important, I'm convinced this will not stop until he gets everything he wants !!!! Like a child, he will continue to throw his tantrums until he gets his candy.
> 
> So, here is what I'm doing. I take complete responsibility for the ONE fish ( Heckle ) that arrived with a broken bag. I would of done ANYTHING for him if there was some sort of normal communications ( one fish or all five ). The one fish IS WHAT HE AGREED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will NOT take responsibility for a fish that subcommand to simple ammonia burns to its fins two weeks after shipping. Any simple aquarium hobbyist knows how to handle that....if this one cant...I'm sorry.
> 
> $220 dollars will be refunded to the person that originally sent me money AND the one who reported this guys problems .
> 
> I now consider the matter closed and will NOT go any further


dale you saw the pics both fish looked like crap do the right thing, those were not "simple ammonia burns" the fins were half gone
you might also want to look up subcommand in the dictionary


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## dalejordan

Mferko said:


> dale you saw the pics both fish looked like crap do the right thing, those were not "simple ammonia burns" the fins were half gone
> you might also want to look up subcommand in the dictionary


pictures you see are a week after shipping...sorry , thats all

Sorry about the spelling bobo


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## budahrox

dalejordan said:


> I'm sorry, I do not frequent this forum. I only knew of this as a good customer emailed me to give you heads up.
> 
> YES, I agree that the "arguing" is not forum appropriate. However, I am posting this because I wanted you as the reader to know exactly what is happening and as my witness. Also, and most important, I'm convinced this will not stop until he gets everything he wants !!!! Like a child, he will continue to throw his tantrums until he gets his candy.
> 
> So, here is what I'm doing. I take complete responsibility for the ONE fish ( Heckle ) that arrived with a broken bag. I would of done ANYTHING for him if there was some sort of normal communications ( one fish or all five ). The one fish IS WHAT HE AGREED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will NOT take responsibility for a fish that succumb to simple ammonia burns to its fins two weeks after shipping. Any simple aquarium hobbyist knows how to handle that....if this one cant...I'm sorry.
> 
> $220 dollars will be refunded to the person that originally sent me money AND the one who reported this guys problems .
> 
> I now consider the matter closed and will NOT go any further


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## Mferko

dalejordan said:


> pictures you see are a week after shipping...sorry , thats all
> 
> Sorry about the spelling bobo


so after a week of healing it still looked like that?
ouch


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## Nanokid

i have imported fish all around north America. the problem here is communication. it is your responsibility to inform the shipper that YOUR fish came in damaged within 24 hours. you keep coming back to the point "triple bagged" HOWEVER; would you have been complaining about that if all fish arrived safe? no. as a shipper, if i had made the promess of triple bagging, and the fish died BECAUSE of me not triple bagging, all of those would be replaced. 

dale says that he had no word of this until three days. if i was dale i would have said "Sorry, no returns". you cant expect someone to JUST take your word for fish not coming in safe. if you had contacted him day of, explaining the problem, sent him pictures, i would expect him to either A) ship out new fish or B) refund you. but 3 DAYS and no word? 

its like you sold a computer; person has is for 5 days, assume everything is OK, then all of a sudden says " IT WAS BROKEN ON SHIPPING!" as the sales person, its been to long. 

dale has done MORE then enough to help you, frankly if i kept discus i wouldn't cross him off the list. hes battling your word against his, and frankly he cant win, and the bombs been dropped. regardless of what he does now his business is effected.


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## target

It may be Joseph's word against Dale's, but the pictures speak for themselves. Bagging problems aside, those fish were in rough shape. And if the picture was from a week later, then they must have been terrible when they arrived.

Of course there would be no complaint if the fish arrived healthy, why would there be? The fact is the the shipping policy wasn't followed, and the seller has now resorted to name calling. Yes, his business has taken a hit from this, but his last few posts didn't do much to help his cause either.

I don't know the full story on either side, but its obvious something happened that shouldn't have.


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## EDGE

Discus can be beaten to death pretty fast if there is an aggressive discus in the pack; hence, people should be keeping discus is no less than group of 6 for that matter. If a weaken discus was dropped in a tank of discus, chances of healing without stress is quite low. 

Do you have picture of the fish still in the bag?


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## Nanokid

target said:


> It may be Joseph's word against Dale's, but the pictures speak for themselves. Bagging problems aside, those fish were in rough shape. And if the picture was from a week later, then they must have been terrible when they arrived.


yes its sad about the name calling. _HOWEVER_ he left it for three days. a lot can happen to a fish in three days, thus i can see why no refund is applicable for the other fish.


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## taureandragon76

I would have to agree *if* it was left for three days a refund should not apply to the others. Hopefully this issue can be resolved peacefully and both parties can continue on. From what I am reading it sounds like Dale has a pretty good reputation as does Joseph on this site.


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## Chappy

I tried my best to stay out of this, but perhaps a third perspective may help. I organized this purchase and want to clarify a couple of things. Dale was made aware of the condition of the fish within a few hours of the fish arriving at the airport - NOT three days later. We picked up the fish on November 3rd:

Hi Dale:

Just wanted to send you a quick note before I go to bed. Hope I have better news for you tomorrow.

Picked up fish at 10:30. Joe met me at airport and we opened the box. Lots of water and a couple of deflated bags. I only took the cuip female; we didn't take anything else out of the box except April's valves.

The cuip. is a very beautiful fish, but already see that it will lose a fair bit of fins and tail. No problem.

Unfortunately, Joe didn't make out as well. The "spotted" one (I think he means the Japura) had less than an inch of water in the bag and what was left was pretty cloudy. He doesn't think the fish will survive but he put it in the tank and is hoping. He said one other bag had also leaked but the other three fish looked alright.

Hope I'll have good news for you tomorrow, Dale.

Next day, Joe sent me this email which I forwarded to Dale:

Hi Dale:

From: Joe Lee <xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 4 November, 2010 8:40:31 AM PDT
To: Shelley Small <[email protected]>
Subject: Official complaint - yesterday's shipment

This is not reflected at you at all and thank you for making the arrangements. 
I will leave it to you to decide whether to pass on or delete but I was extremely disappointed in the shipping effort put into yesterday's shipment of Discus. 
Just to be clear, I have no doubt's about the quality of the discus. It is clear that the Discus themselves, prior to their shipping disaster were really nice fish. 
As you know, when we opened the shipping box at the airport, there was about an inch of water at the bottom of the Styrofoam box. When I got home and opened the bags, all of the bags were leaking to a certain extent. The bags containing the heckle and the Solomon still had a fair bit of water in them but the bags containing both the Cuipeau Male and Jarapura had very little water in them. The bag containing the Cuipeau Male in particular had barely enough water for the fish to lie on its side and the water was cloudy with fish slime/scales. As of this morning, both fish are still alive, though the Cuipeau Male has a substantial amount of slime coming off its body and the edge of its fins are white/transluscent. The Jarapura is the same but to about 50% of the extent of the Cuipeau. The heckle and Solomon seem to be absolutely fine.

Not sure what the shipper or the seller might want to do about this but paying $1,100 for 5 Discus, one would expect to receive A + quality fish.

I have absolutely no intention of posting the entire string of emails that went back and forth, but I do want to say this: at no time did Dale mention any form of compensation until Joe posted his experience on Simply. And the truth be know, Joe's only reason for commenting at all on Simply was because a thread had been started trashing another shipper that Joe had had a positive experience with. He only mentioned that he had recently had a similar experience with a "reputable" seller whom he didn't name until he was called out to do so. At that point, Dale sent a scathing email to Joe which included:

I tried to rectify the other fish by telling you to DO SOMETHING instead of sulking !!! Shipping adult Discus is always touchy and fins puncture bags....you keep saying "shipped properly"....they were BUT BAGS BREAK and my policy is live arrival !!!!!!!!!!!!

I really thought you'd be more mature than this ??????

There you have it. Joe, I apologize for posting this without first getting your permission, but when Dale was not truthful about when the condition of the fish was first reported to him, I was just a little upset as I was the one who informed him within hours, certainly not days. Knowing that you would take the high road and not respond, I felt a need to.


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## gklaw

Sigh! No offense to anyone. That's just another reason I like to support and strengthen our local stores.


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## Nanokid

thank you for clearing that up Shelley. obviously my posts should be considered obsolete , as clearly this was made word of much sooner then three days.... interesting... interesting.


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## MELLO

Bottom line is, If Dale had bagged those fish better we're not talking about this problem. Your shipping discus worth hunderds or thousands of dollars how much an extra plastic bagged will cost you? When your paying that kinda of money you expect to get good quality discus and packaged very well. I've bought discus from the states/toronto in the past. Some of them stay in the bag for a good 18hours. I've never seen one as bad as the ones Joseph got. Mainly because the fish are healthy and well packaged.


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## Mferko

MELLO said:


> Bottom line is, If Dale had bagged those fish better we're not talking about this problem. Your shipping discus worth hunderds or thousands of dollars how much an extra plastic bagged will cost you? When your paying that kinda of money you expect to get good quality discus and packaged very well. I've bought discus from the states/toronto in the past. Some of them stay in the bag for a good 18hours. I've never seen one as bad as the ones Joseph got. Mainly because the fish are healthy and well packaged.


yea, the fish wouldnt have been in that situation had someone properly bagged them the way they said they would.


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## Mferko

Dale Jordan Discus

"There is no longer a need to spend hundreds of dollars on individual wild discus" 
right off the front page, just found that odd


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## josephl

-N/A- said:


> I tried my best to stay out of this, but perhaps a third perspective may help. I organized this purchase and want to clarify a couple of things. Dale was made aware of the condition of the fish within a few hours of the fish arriving at the airport - NOT three days later. We picked up the fish on November 3rd:
> 
> Hi Dale:
> 
> Just wanted to send you a quick note before I go to bed. Hope I have better news for you tomorrow.
> 
> Picked up fish at 10:30. Joe met me at airport and we opened the box. Lots of water and a couple of deflated bags. I only took the cuip female; we didn't take anything else out of the box except April's valves.
> 
> The cuip. is a very beautiful fish, but already see that it will lose a fair bit of fins and tail. No problem.
> 
> Unfortunately, Joe didn't make out as well. The "spotted" one (I think he means the Japura) had less than an inch of water in the bag and what was left was pretty cloudy. He doesn't think the fish will survive but he put it in the tank and is hoping. He said one other bag had also leaked but the other three fish looked alright.
> 
> Hope I'll have good news for you tomorrow, Dale.
> 
> Next day, Joe sent me this email which I forwarded to Dale:
> 
> Hi Dale:
> 
> From: Joe Lee <xxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 4 November, 2010 8:40:31 AM PDT
> To: Shelley Small <[email protected]>
> Subject: Official complaint - yesterday's shipment
> 
> This is not reflected at you at all and thank you for making the arrangements.
> I will leave it to you to decide whether to pass on or delete but I was extremely disappointed in the shipping effort put into yesterday's shipment of Discus.
> Just to be clear, I have no doubt's about the quality of the discus. It is clear that the Discus themselves, prior to their shipping disaster were really nice fish.
> As you know, when we opened the shipping box at the airport, there was about an inch of water at the bottom of the Styrofoam box. When I got home and opened the bags, all of the bags were leaking to a certain extent. The bags containing the heckle and the Solomon still had a fair bit of water in them but the bags containing both the Cuipeau Male and Jarapura had very little water in them. The bag containing the Cuipeau Male in particular had barely enough water for the fish to lie on its side and the water was cloudy with fish slime/scales. As of this morning, both fish are still alive, though the Cuipeau Male has a substantial amount of slime coming off its body and the edge of its fins are white/transluscent. The Jarapura is the same but to about 50% of the extent of the Cuipeau. The heckle and Solomon seem to be absolutely fine.
> 
> Not sure what the shipper or the seller might want to do about this but paying $1,100 for 5 Discus, one would expect to receive A + quality fish.
> 
> I have absolutely no intention of posting the entire string of emails that went back and forth, but I do want to say this: at no time did Dale mention any form of compensation until Joe posted his experience on Simply. And the truth be know, Joe's only reason for commenting at all on Simply was because a thread had been started trashing another shipper that Joe had had a positive experience with. He only mentioned that he had recently had a similar experience with a "reputable" seller whom he didn't name until he was called out to do so. At that point, Dale sent a scathing email to Joe which included:
> 
> I tried to rectify the other fish by telling you to DO SOMETHING instead of sulking !!! Shipping adult Discus is always touchy and fins puncture bags....you keep saying "shipped properly"....they were BUT BAGS BREAK and my policy is live arrival !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I really thought you'd be more mature than this ??????
> 
> There you have it. Joe, I apologize for posting this without first getting your permission, but when Dale was not truthful about when the condition of the fish was first reported to him, I was just a little upset as I was the one who informed him within hours, certainly not days. Knowing that you would take the high road and not respond, I felt a need to.


Thanks for clearing things up Shelley. I wasn't sure how to respond to Dale Jordan's comments in post #24 without dragging this forum into more of a mud slinging match which the members of this forum made quite clear they didn't want to see.

Thank goodness you kept the string of e-mails and its funny how none of this would have happened if we had just done what 'normal people' would have done and waited till the next morning to pick up the fish. If we had, the water would have clearly completely leaked out of both bags and the 'live arrival guarantee' would not have been applicable and refunds/replacements would have had to be sent for both fish.

Thanks again for clearing up the facts


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## Chappy

josephl said:


> Thank goodness you kept the string of e-mails and its funny how none of this would have happened if we had just done what 'normal people' would have done and waited till the next morning to pick up the fish. If we had, the water would have clearly completely leaked out of both bags and the 'live arrival guarantee' would not have been applicable and refunds/replacements would have had to be sent for both fish.


AND I would have saved the $10.00 worth of donuts I bought to bribe the warehouse foreman to drive out on the tarmac in his own car to meet the plane as soon as it landed to get our fish to us ASAP  Live and learn....


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## josephl

-N/A- said:


> AND I would have saved the $10.00 worth of donuts I bought to bribe the warehouse foreman to drive out on the tarmac in his own car to meet the plane as soon as it landed to get our fish to us ASAP  Live and learn....


I had forgetten about your offering the donuts to get the fish before the warehouse closed for the night.

Ironically, if you hadn't done that, we would only have been able to pick up the next morning, the bags would have been completely empty and we wouldn't have had to have this post with its 1,670 views(to date) because the fish in the leaking bags would not have made it and the live arrival guarantee would have had to kick in...end of this whole debate


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## Chappy

josephl said:


> I had forgetten about your offering the donuts to get the fish before the warehouse closed for the night.
> 
> Ironically, if you hadn't done that, we would only have been able to pick up the next morning, the bags would have been completely empty and we wouldn't have had to have this post with its 1,670 views(to date) because the fish in the leaking bags would not have made it and the live arrival guarantee would have had to kick in...end of this whole debate


So what you're saying is, it's Tim Horton's fault  From the looks of it, I think you'd stand a better chance of seeking compensation from them  If they pay you in TimBits, I want a percentage


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## josephl

-N/A- said:


> So what you're saying is, it's Tim Horton's fault  From the looks of it, I think you'd stand a better chance of seeking compensation from them  If they pay you in TimBits, I want a percentage


You know, I've been in business a long time and when you are in business, you try and ensure customer satisfaction and within reason, the customer is right so I'm holding out and hoping for justice 

Stay tuned....


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## josephl

*Update*

The update as of yesterday is that I have sinced received a refund for the Heckel that came in badly burnt and that did not make it.










Still working to see what kind of settlement we can come up with for the other discus that came in in the leaky bag with badly burnt fins.










I hope things will work out


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## 2wheelsx2

Good to hear that things are moving towards a resolution.


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## effox

2wheelsx2 said:


> Good to hear that things are moving towards a resolution.


Agreed, it's a shame so many people had to see this complaint before any form of resolution was established.


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## ibenu

MOD HAT OFF

Joeseph, that pic of The "yesterday update" is identical to what you showed on your first page that leads people to believe it looked like that when you got it, not what it looks like now, over three months later, after being mixed with other source discus.

Pics of in container still in bag go a long way to describe/prove your stance. 3 months later sounds to me PO'd your discus died. I hear ya, but no quarantine? After all the deaths, of all the members, of all the discus? 

Seeking resolution on this prior to the end of 2010 this would be more reasonable to me.

Dale was a godsent to me when i struggled with what looks like the same disease, and those discus were only from local sellers I might add.

I believe no one would wait a second to jump to the defence of a sponsor more local if I complained this late in the game publicly. So I would like to jump up and down here touting my "Dale Jordan is great" support.


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## josephl

ibenu said:


> MOD HAT OFF
> 
> Joeseph, that pic of The "yesterday update" is identical to what you showed on your first page that leads people to believe it looked like that when you got it, not what it looks like now, over three months later, after being mixed with other source discus.
> 
> Pics of in container still in bag go a long way to describe/prove your stance. 3 months later sounds to me PO'd your discus died. I hear ya, but no quarantine? After all the deaths, of all the members, of all the discus?
> 
> Seeking resolution on this prior to the end of 2010 this would be more reasonable to me.
> 
> Dale was a godsent to me when i struggled with what looks like the same disease, and those discus were only from local sellers I might add.
> 
> I believe no one would wait a second to jump to the defence of a sponsor more local if I complained this late in the game publicly. So I would like to jump up and down here touting my "Dale Jordan is great" support.


Hi Lisa

I'm a little confused by your comments so I thought I would clarify a few things

1 Pictures - The two pictures show the fish right when they came out of the bag. The bags were leaking and the water was cloudy, it was past 11 pm and I thought the best thing to do was to get the discus in clean water. One died almost right away and the other lingered for awhile before dying. Could I have stopped to take pictures of water in bottom of the box and leaking bags and fish having trouble breathing, in retrospect, maybe but I thought the picture of the fish in my tank the next day would do, as I was dealing with a known entity in Dale Jordan. I also have a witness to the leaking bags as it was a 'group buy' and there was water at the bottom of the shipping box when we opened it at the airport.

2 As you can see from the post by N/A, Dale Jordan was notified almost immediately of the shipping problems.

3 Compensation - I did seek compensation from Dale Jordan in 2010. I received a tentative offer was for only one fish, when two were poorl shipped and the offer was conditional on a lfs ordering more fish from Dale Jordan or Spencer Jack. That part was a little unclear. I was also told to never communcicate with him again. To the date of my posting this post, I had not received any compensation or any communication though I know for a fact that he has directly shipped some of his Dale Jordan fry to a member in North Van.

3 I'm not quite sure how whether or not I have a quarantine tank has to to do with this issue. My claims against Dale Jordan are for the two expensive wild discus that I had bought based on pictures sent by him that came in damaged from inproper shipping bagged against his shipping policies. Thats it. Did I have disease problems after introducing the fish without having any before yes, do I think that its something introduced by the discus I got from him, possibly. Am I claiming those or did I create this post because of that, no, because not quaranting was my choice. AGAIN, MY CLAIM IS FOR THE 2 FISH DAMAGED FROM POOR SHIPPING.

4 I understand that Dale Jordan has been quite helpful to quite a few people in Vancouver and that is actually the reason why I was comfortable paying close to a $1,000 for wild discus, based on the pictures that were sent.

So, in summary:

I might not have pictures of damaged fish in the shipping bags but I have a witness.

Dale Jordan was notified of problems almost immediately, please see dates and times on N/A's post.

Compensation has been discussed prior to this post and there had been no satisfactory outcome.

What would you had done differently if you had paid somewhere between four to five hundred dollars for 2 wild discus and instead of 2 fish in the pictures sent to me by Dale Jordan, I instead received the 2 damaged fish, and you had been unable to receive either replacement fish or a refund for the 2 fish?

I believe that I am in the right as I paid for two quality fish, I communicated the state of the bags/fish upon arrival, the fish were not shipped in accordance with Dale Jordan's triple bag policy, the fish died, I communicated looking for compensaton with unsatisfactory results so I posted my experience.


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## dean9922

I agree with Ibenu

Dale has been great to deal with and in fact I just recieved some of his Soloman babies a week ago and they are strong, healthy, were packed great and did very well right out of the bag....he always returns my calls if I need any questions answered and I have found him to be very helpful.

I think in the discus world we need people like Dale and April who "I feel" try there best to please there customers IMO......

anyway I hope that this gets rectified.....


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## josephl

Dean, I understand and admire yours and Lisa's passion to rush to Dale Jordan's defense. My issue isn't to argue with your personal expriences with Dale Jordan, my post is to let people know about my personal expriences purchasing almost $1,000 in expensive discus from Dale Jordan and not being able to reach satisfactory resolution as to compensation for 2 fish that were damaged in shipping.

How would you feel if you were in my shoes and:

Bought 5 laptops based on pictures and specs sent by a reputable dealer = Dale Jordan sending me pictures of the exact fish that he was going to sell me.

Upon arrival, 2 of the laptops were clearly damaged from shipping, with the boxes crushed and dents in the casing of the laptops = leaking bags when I opened the styrofoam shipping box and 2 fish were severly burnt fins, as can be seen in the posted pictures. The dealer was made aware of the problem right away(see N/A's post).

The dealer said that he was going to ship the computers a certain way in accordance with the stated policies on his site and did not = Dale Jordan's shipping policies were clearly stated as triple bagging on his site ane ALL of the fish received were double bagged.

One of the 2 damaged laptops booted up for a day or so and the other for a few days. The dealer claims that his policy is only that the computers would be in working condition when they arrived = Dale Jordan's live arrival guarantee policy

In the case of the laptops, I would stll open dialogue with the dealer and negotiate compensation as the laptops were clearly damaged upon my opening up the packaging and were clearly damaged from shipping, which was the responsibility of the seller and I clearly did not get the laptops I thought I was purchasing = leaking bags and burnt fins on 2 of the 5 discus purchased.

If I couldn't reach what I felt was satisfactory compensation from the dealer, then my options would include going on to public forums to warn others about MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in dealing with this particular dealer as well as possibly small claims and reporting to the better business bureau = my starting a thread here on an aquarium related website about MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in purchasing from DALE JORDAN.


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## 2wheelsx2

dean9922 said:


> I think in the discus world we need people like Dale and April who "I feel" try there best to please there customers IMO......


I think that goes for all service industries, not just the discus world. One always hopes to get the best service for the money. You don't expect to get MacDonald's service at Gotham's. I don't think that Joseph is stating don't buy from Dale. He never said that anywhere in this thread that I see. He's just saying he did not have a satisfactory experience in his personal dealings with Dale. I mean "Were (sic) done" and "Don't ever contact me again" are not exactly "customer first" type statements.

I for one, would expect premium service for premium priced fish. I saw a thread on Simply where Discus Hans sent a customer a replacement fish because one had a short gill . I quote "Sorry I missed that, for $250 each it shouldn't have a short gill,"

See post #98: The WILD side! - 100gal build thread (56k Warning)

Wouldn't you agree this is more severe than a short gill?

The email chain posted by Shelley provides the timeline on all events. This is irrefutable.

Is Dale a bad vendor? Obviously not, based on the experience of many people, including you and Lisa.

Is Dale a bad vendor in THIS case? Obviously he is, based on the email exchanges.

Should we deal with Dale? This question can only be answered by the individual as each person has a different level of risk tolerance. One bad experience shouldn't blemish a person's track record forever, but at the same time, to state unequivocally that Dale has impeccable service would be an injustice to Joseph.


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## dean9922

I totally hear what you are saying....a $1000 worth of fish is a big chunk of change to spend on fish for sure....I did also add that I hope it gets rectified. And yes I would not be happy either.....good luck


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## josephl

Thanks guys, thats precisely my point was to point out MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES in dealing with Dale Jordan and if a satisfactory resolution is reached, I would gladly post that on here and if not, I'll also provide an update.


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## JUICE

2wheelsx2 said:


> I think that goes for all service industries, not just the discus world. One always hopes to get the best service for the money. You don't expect to get MacDonald's service at Gotham's. I don't think that Joseph is stating don't buy from Dale. He never said that anywhere in this thread that I see. He's just saying he did not have a satisfactory experience in his personal dealings with Dale. I mean "Were (sic) done" and "Don't ever contact me again" are not exactly "customer first" type statements.
> 
> I for one, would expect premium service for premium priced fish. I saw a thread on Simply where Discus Hans sent a customer a replacement fish because one had a short gill . I quote "Sorry I missed that, for $250 each it shouldn't have a short gill,"
> 
> See post #98: The WILD side! - 100gal build thread (56k Warning)
> 
> Wouldn't you agree this is more severe than a short gill?
> 
> The email chain posted by Shelley provides the timeline on all events. This is irrefutable.
> 
> Is Dale a bad vendor? Obviously not, based on the experience of many people, including you and Lisa.
> 
> Is Dale a bad vendor in THIS case? Obviously he is, based on the email exchanges.
> 
> Should we deal with Dale? This question can only be answered by the individual as each person has a different level of risk tolerance. One bad experience shouldn't blemish a person's track record forever, but at the same time, to state unequivocally that Dale has impeccable service would be an injustice to Joseph.


very good points gary !!


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## gimlid

I think it is a real shame that any of this happened, especially since some adult fish lost their lives. 
The only thing that I appreciate out of all of this is that at least the forum can constructively discuss this situation among its membership " since Dale is not a sponsor".
I have had 2 somewhat similar experiences with 2 separate sponsors (both involved loss of several of my own stock).
Because I enjoy my membership with BCA I was apprehensive to even discuss it in an open thread. 
At least we can support you in this without risking losing our memberships.


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## Holyarmor

JUICE said:


> very good points gary !!


x2. Well said, Gary !!!!!

Justice will prevail whether it is a business or personal issue. Truth is truth and all evidence have proven the seller had intensionally covered up and attemtping to delay compensating a very reputable " affluent customer ".

I am in a professional sales industry for many years and I was taught to always contact my clients at once, after I deliver my service, setting the right stage for future business or referrals. Repeated business is the best business. In today's extremely competitive environment, closing back doors is much harder than finding new clients.

With the same spending power, I am sure the buyer can always find the right seller who can deliver top & reliable service.


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## josephl

Interesting post from Hans, a respected Discus dealer/shipper on Simply Discus.

While this particular thread is talking about packing of discus to survive low temperatures, his quote in post #9 is particularly to the point

"but if a shipper doesn't know how to pack Discus for a 12 hour shipment, he shouldn't be in this business."

The remaining fish I am attempting to claim credit for from Dale Jordan was inproperly packed for a flight from Winnipeg to Vancouver!

Crazy shipment!!!!! top this one....


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## Chronick

josephl said:


> Interesting post from Hans, a respected Discus dealer/shipper on Simply Discus.
> 
> While this particular thread is talking about packing of discus to survive low temperatures, his quote in post #9 is particularly to the point
> 
> "but if a shipper doesn't know how to pack Discus for a 12 hour shipment, he shouldn't be in this business."
> 
> The remaining fish I am attempting to claim credit for from Dale Jordan was inproperly packed for a flight from Winnipeg to Vancouver!
> 
> Crazy shipment!!!!! top this one....


wait, so you want credit for all of the fish not just the ones in poor condition? that seems a little greedy...


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## target

Actually, I am pretty sure he is just seeking compensation for the 2 that arrived damaged and then died.


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## josephl

target said:


> Actually, I am pretty sure he is just seeking compensation for the 2 that arrived damaged and then died.


Correct and thank you.

Again, only seeking compensation for the 2 fish expensive discus that came in with bad burns and that subsequently died.


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## couch

On a side note - I bought a bunch of fish from Canadian Aquatics and one bag deflated on the way home killing all the fish. I let them know immediately and they asked if I wanted credit or refund - no pictures or anything. Those are good guys.


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## April

ok well im trying to stay out of this..as all of these guys are good friends of mine. 
dale had a third party shipper to ship. he didnt follow the guidelines that dale had on his website as dale didnt feel he should have to tell the other person how to ship them. maybe he was rushed this time..no idea as the first fish shelley got..came in fine. 
He has since told the shipper he has to follow his shipping procedure with triple bags..as in the end..its his name on the line. 
Joseph is a good guy..shelley is great..and dale..has gone out of his ways to help alot of people all on his dime. I think also part of the problem was..two different people he was dealing with. hence he refunded shelley. she organized the sale and paid..and did send the first letter. joseph then contacted him a few days later. I suppose there should of been phone calls the next day on either parties part. i guess dale feels the second could of been saved. 
When i ship fish..i wait to hear if all went well..and its amazing how many buyers never even email me saying they got the fish..all good. i just have to guess..all good or id hear. some wait a few days to see how they look once acclimatized. then report in. 
in the end..it was a communication error..and dale was away right after that and got busy...maybe communication was bad..
He agreed to send a replacement for the first one. second died later..and joe chose not to quarantine or treat. in the end joe agreed to the one when i got a shipment in from spencer. that way no one had to pay shipping again. i didnt get a shipment in..as ive been a tad busy . my fault..anyhow..i feel bad for all parties. 
dale was pretty upset..and he does care but they both ended up as a still mate. 
The problem with the internet.is it does work against both parties when brough out into the open as the seller feels like they are put against a wall and its ruining their reputation..and the buyer feels by posting they are forced to respond. 
i honestly think if a phone call happened the next day..they may even of liked each other..and come to an agreement. i think joseph ended up in meetings or something that weekend also or was away from the computer and office. 
"im out of my office for the weekend..
its too late now..money was refunded..as per agreement..and they both feel they hope htey never meet. 
anyhow..as a seller and shipper..i hate to see these things..as when you are a seller on forums you could also end up with issues eventually as depending on personalities or translations etc..people get defensive and take things personal. 
I think its time this thread ended. posting isnt going to fix anything. It could happen to any good seller or shipper. 
no point people posting that arent involved or know any of the parties..


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## Nicklfire

Agreed, Thead will be closed as i think all has been said that should.


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