# Dangerous Fish?



## MysteryFish (Aug 6, 2010)

I know I'm just getting into the hobby, but I have an odd question based on my boyfriend's experience today. He has slightly more experience with fish and is establishing a 30 gallon marine tank while I play with fresh water. We were at King Ed's yesterday and the asian gentleman sold him a fox face rabbit fish (really cute btw) and we got him home and put him in. I went online afterwards and discovered that the tank was too small and that it is actually quite poisonous. We took it back today and the gentleman told us that it would grow to the size of it's environment. When we questioned him on it, he walked away. My question is: Is it true that a fish like this will stop growing once it reaches the capacity of it's environment?


----------



## BigPete (Apr 22, 2010)

stunted fish.............. the organs in the fishes body will not grow to the normal size but stay smaller then it normally is which will be very bad and cause the fish to be unhealthy


----------



## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Just like BigPete said, they'll be stunted, won't be as colorful and die a much earlier age than usual!


----------



## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

has been my experience in FW that fish will outgrow there environment.


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I Never buy fish from King Eds. They say whatever they have to in order to sell their fish.

Equipment on the other hand can be found for a good price at King Eds.

If you want to buy fish, go to IPU (one of our sponsors). They have more variety of fish and all the workers there will give you an educated opinion and also help you find the right fish for your environment.

The above is from my personal experience.


----------



## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Smiladon said:


> I Never buy fish from King Eds. They say whatever they have to in order to sell their fish.
> 
> Equipment on the other hand can be found for a good price at King Eds.
> 
> ...


+2
They definitely have the best pricing for equipment!
But those guys are worst than car salesman, i was there last day and he almost started fishing out the 3 large tinfoil barb and bagged it for me just cuz I said it looked very nice!
And again, my personal experience!


----------



## snow (Apr 21, 2010)

There are many types of fish that have a bad temper and attack their owners. There are also fish that are poisonous, like the lion fish. You just have to be careful around these types of fish. It's best to have those gloves that go up to your shoulders when working around them. 
BTW don't buy saltwater fish from king eds. I don't like their selection and find some fish over priced and unhealthy. Best place to go is IPU or J&L aquatics, these two places have a good selection and fair prices. Those king ed guys are too pushy. They never paid attention to me until I bought a datnoid or electric eel and some other high priced fish from them. Now everytime I go in they try to sell me expensive fish....very pushy people indeed...


----------



## MysteryFish (Aug 6, 2010)

I was told about bc aquaria while at J&L. They really seem to know what they're talking about. We actually had no idea that IPU was around the corner, we drove past, but they had already closed. The young lady closing up gave a us a quick tour. (Loved the sharks!) She seemed to know what she was talking about. We mentioned the fox face to her and she said that if we had any questions, to talk to the fish room staff. She also said that we could ask questions here for other stores.


----------



## Ron99 (Apr 22, 2010)

Personally I won't shop at IPU as they bring in livestock they really should not be selling; orange spot filefish, blue ringed octopus, barracuda etc. and will sell them withou adequate warnings etc. Stick with J&L or Ocean Aquatics. Oceanic Corals in Aldergrove is great for corals and will be a great place for fish once thy have their fish system in. I may be a bit biased as I do some work with them but Paul will not sell you something that is inappropriate for your system and level of experience.

As for the foxface, yes it will outgrow a 30 gallon system and is mildly venomous if you get jabbed by the spines on its back. But many people keep them without problem. Just be aware when sticking your hands in the tank.


----------



## Keri (Aug 2, 2010)

I have never had a problem with my foxface poking me, but my tank is 120g... but he certainly does know how to use his fin spikes, he jabbed one of my other fish who didn't heed his raised-fin warning and there was a sore but it healed quickly. 30g is certainly way too small for a foxface though, but the people at king ed's will tell you themselves they will sell you whatever you want for your tank regardless of whether or not it is appropriate. 
What kinds of fish are you interested in?


----------



## neven (May 15, 2010)

I'd just like to say that in general i've had decent experiences shopping at King Ed's, if you go in a non peak hour time (ie right after work) you'll definately get sidelined for their well paying customers they know, but otherwise they've been fine.

They've helped a lot with plant selection, often times not pushing the more expensive display plants to me when i first started (before i knew more than they did), but rather the easy to grow plants. Also they are open to haggling, i've had free fish and free driftwood thrown in when i went to make larger purchases.

Almost all of my fish are from there aswell, many have lasted years with no problem. But they did indeed sell me fish that were not suited for my set up, common pleco's and clown loaches for example. They definately don't fall in the same boat with petcetera, but they also don't excel like many of our sponsors here do when it comes to quality and health of fish. I'd say fish wise they are middle of the row.

As for the poisonous fish you got, that should be definately warned about, as it danger to you. Generally speaking though, you should look into what species fit the set up you want. I've been there and done impulse purchases, and it sucks when they die, or you need to rush to find the fish a new home when you find out later they don't work for you. its one lesson most of us has learnt on our own.


----------



## malibu aka justinking (Apr 26, 2010)

were is ipu? located


----------



## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

malibu aka justinking said:


> were is ipu? located


 There are 2 locations Richmond & Burnaby/Coq (Lougheed Hwy & North Rd.)http://www.islandpets.ca/


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Hey everyone,
Interesting thread. There are many poisonous fish in the trade. The majority of freshwater catfish are venomous to a degree including the common Corydoras sp. or "Cory cats". All venomous fish are this way as a means of defense. The fins on the Cory cat for example are venomous to avoid being swallowed by larger fish. 
The majority of fish in the trade will not reach full size in an aquarium no matter how well you maintain your water quality. Fish do for the most part grow to their environment. In the example of the Foxface Rabbitfish, realistically this fish should be housed in at least a 500 gallon aquarium as they are a curious fish that will hide often if not provided adequate space. Do these fish end up in 500 gallon aquariums? No. The average marine aquarium for a foxface is probably around a 90 gallon. Once you have seen the natural behavior of these fish in a very large aquarium or the ocean, you really appreciate when a fish is truly "comfortable" in the right aquarium.

LFS generally never list Lionfish as venomous yet most people seem to already know that they are poisonous. The likely hood of being stung by a fish would largely be due to neglect in handling in a net etc. Fish do not generally make a go for you, it is usually in defense of the hobbyist not paying attention.

Regarding the comment made about IPU importing species that should not be imported I would have to disagree. We take great pride as many hobbyists here know in maintaining some of the highest quality fish in BC. I have already posted regarding the misconceptions behind keeping the Orange Spot Filefish. I have imported VERY few Blue ringed Octopus over the 20 years I have been in this business and most of those were special order for hobbyists who had devoted an aquarium for them. it is unlikely that anyone is going to purchase a Blue Ring Octopus or any Octopus without enquiring about it's care, that is my experience. Regarding the Barracuda, we imported two for our predator display and attempted to grow them out until they could be introduced. After doubling in size we decided to sell them as it would simply take too long to achieve the size needed. They both went to hobbyists with large aquaria. 

To revisit the stunting topic if this thread, a large factor in how likely a fish is to outgrow it's environment is the level of activeness of the fish. Many Plecos for example will in some cases reach 10" in a 20" aquarium because they are not an active fish.

Every hobbyist should ask questions or research the fish they are interested in before they buy. Unfortunately some LFS which may only have small amounts of fish in order to meet every pet owners needs do not place much attention to this and that is where many compatibility problems and poor choices end up coming from.


----------



## Ron99 (Apr 22, 2010)

Don't want to hijack this thread and get off topic or start a large debate but I do have to disagree here with Rastapus. The orange spot filefish are notoriously difficult to keep in captivity. In the wild they feed primarily on coral polyps and they rarely take prepared foods in captivity. While a very small number of aquarists have had success keeping them for every success there are probably hundreds if not thousands of dead filefish. If you have successfully converted them to prepared foods (not just brine shrimp that most fish will eat but that have little nutritional value for long term health) perhaps you could post a video of them eating a variety of foods or would arrange a time for a demonstration as I am skeptical of you claims. I am open to your claims but would like some evidence before I accept your assertions. I am also curious as to your policies when selling them? What exactly do you tell customers about them and can you guarantee that ALL your staff are properly educating customers as to the requirements of these and other fish?

As for the blue ringed octopus, there is a magnitude of difference between a lionfish or foxface that can deliver a painful sting and a blue ring whose bite has a good chance of being fatal without immediate medical attention. The active ingredient in their venom, tetrodotoxin is an extremely potent neurotoxin (actually, one of THE most potent toxins on the planet). When we used it in a lab setting it was delivered to us in a small sealed glass bottle that was itself placed inside a heat sealed thick foil packet which was in turn wrapped in soft packing material and placed inside a metal can. We had to be very cautious when handling it. The octopus that I saw was for sale in your store without any warnings etc. After I actually called somebody from wildlife services (or some other government organization which I can't exactly remember as it was some time ago) that told me they would send somebody out to investigate I noticed a small sticker on the tank that simply said "venomous". Personally I think that is inadequate and I would not want to be the store selling that to somebody only to have one of their kids put their fingers in the tank and end up dead. Perhaps its unlikely but it is still possible and irresponsible to have a blue ringed octopus for sale to any taker in your store. I could see special ordering one for select customers who have an appropriate setup and are very aware of the potential dangers but not generally available in the store.

Finally with respect to the barracuda, these are large fast moving open water predators that would most likely only do alright in an extremely large tank such as the ones at the Osaka or Atlanta aquariums etc. that have tanks larger than 1 million gallons. I do not think any hobbyist will have a tank large enough to suit these fish once they grow and even your intent to put them in your large predator tanks was probably ill advised as even those tanks are to small for these fish.

As I said, I'm sorry for hijacking this thread somewhat and I hope that this post isn't deleted because it potentially offends a sponsor but I think this is an extremely important topic. Many beginners to our hobby read these boards and need to be properly informed as to what they should and probably shouldn't try. While many will ask for information at the LFS they will not always receive the correct information from staff. I think this is an important topic that should be discussed in a civilized manner and I am trying not to sling mud at anyone or at particular stores. Hopefully we can keep exploring this subject in a polite and realistic manner.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Ron99 said:


> Don't want to hijack this thread and get off topic or start a large debate but I do have to disagree here with Rastapus. The orange spot filefish are notoriously difficult to keep in captivity. In the wild they feed primarily on coral polyps and they rarely take prepared foods in captivity. While a very small number of aquarists have had success keeping them for every success there are probably hundreds if not thousands of dead filefish. If you have successfully converted them to prepared foods (not just brine shrimp that most fish will eat but that have little nutritional value for long term health) perhaps you could post a video of them eating a variety of foods or would arrange a time for a demonstration as I am skeptical of you claims. I am open to your claims but would like some evidence before I accept your assertions. I am also curious as to your policies when selling them? What exactly do you tell customers about them and can you guarantee that ALL your staff are properly educating customers as to the requirements of these and other fish?
> 
> As for the blue ringed octopus, there is a magnitude of difference between a lionfish or foxface that can deliver a painful sting and a blue ring whose bite has a good chance of being fatal without immediate medical attention. The active ingredient in their venom, tetrodotoxin is an extremely potent neurotoxin (actually, one of THE most potent toxins on the planet). When we used it in a lab setting it was delivered to us in a small sealed glass bottle that was itself placed inside a heat sealed thick foil packet which was in turn wrapped in soft packing material and placed inside a metal can. We had to be very cautious when handling it. The octopus that I saw was for sale in your store without any warnings etc. After I actually called somebody from wildlife services (or some other government organization which I can't exactly remember as it was some time ago) that told me they would send somebody out to investigate I noticed a small sticker on the tank that simply said "venomous". Personally I think that is inadequate and I would not want to be the store selling that to somebody only to have one of their kids put their fingers in the tank and end up dead. Perhaps its unlikely but it is still possible and irresponsible to have a blue ringed octopus for sale to any taker in your store. I could see special ordering one for select customers who have an appropriate setup and are very aware of the potential dangers but not generally available in the store.
> 
> ...


Ron,
Firstly I am actually more glad then anything that some hobbyists care enough about their hobby and the ethics surrounding the collection of certain fish.
In regards to the Orange Spot File fish I agree that the number of these fish that are collected that end up dying is probably quite staggering. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, and to a email to you prior, these fish are net collected from my own station in Vanuatu. Handling has a lot to do with weather a otherwise tricky fish will or not survive. I export this fish to some of the largest and most reputable wholesalers in Europe who are leaps and bounds ahead of the North America market and take their hobby very seriously. Are we all wrong in our experience of this fish? I completely agree that this fish collected from the Philippines or Indonesia is practically doomed. That being said I don't import this fish from those areas, only my station. The Orange Spot File fish has recently been spawned and reared in captivity and I assure you they were not raised on coral polyps.

Regarding the Blue Ring Octopus, yes I am aware of the strength of the neurotoxin released in their bite. Let's first address the fact that Blue Ring Octopus do not attack people. Their bite is purely a defense mechanism. Both myself and a few of my collectors have had Blue rings crawl right up our arms during rock collection. Spooky? Yes, but we are all still quite alive. I have never heard of a fatality from this octopus, it is that rare. Also as stated these Octopus were brought in by special order for Octopus enthusiasts who are quite aware of their toxic nature. They are beautiful Octopus that have special needs which the few customers that have ordered them have provided.

Regarding the Barracuda you are entitled to your opinion, as is the many hobbyists that keep silver arowana, Red Tail Cats etc. which will clearly outgrow their space and require large aquaria. Honestly, most aquarium fish are not housed in sufficiently sized aquariums, what fish do you have?

As to my policies, we do our utmost best in our training, particularly in rarer species. Of course again, some responsibility here has to be onto the hobbyist don't you think? I have already addressed this point on a thread that I started a few weeks ago. Can every staff member know everything about every fish? Of course not. Again, customers do generally ask first and if not many research the fish, albeit sometimes after their purchase.

Don't worry about the thread being deleted, I have never requested a thread deleted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think boycotting my stores based on these issues is your choice. However, if you immerse yourself into the cruelty of dyed FW fish and cyanide, you may quickly run out of stores to shop at. We do not carry Dyed fish and are very careful about the marine suppliers we deal with. I am sorry to hear that this is your stand because I feel we offer some of the highest quality fish around.

Remember, it is not in our interest. or any reputable LFS' interest to import fish that are likely to die. On a business level alone this does not make sense. I am sorry if I have upset you by having these fish, I feel I have explained this topic to you three times now. It is evident by that alone that your stand is firm. Hopefully you will take in some if what I have presented here, otherwise I dont know what more I can say on the topic.


----------



## Fish Whisper (Apr 22, 2010)

It seams my general feeling towards these establishments are not alone.

-Cheapest AC110 in lower maianland is at J and L from what i have researched.

-And IPU truly due stand behind there Warranty/Guarantee on fish. i was acutally surprised and how helpful they were on trying help me fix my water parameter problem. I ended up buying a lot of equipment from them just because they were such a great place. Prices were competitive as well.


----------



## TCR (Jul 13, 2010)

I like IPU selection in fish, They looked healthy when i was there as well as the level of dead fish versus other places seemed very low in comparison. 

I'll be taking a best friend there next weekend to look at things and get aquainted with the fish hobby (she has a turtle but wants to get some fish as well so I want to show her as much as I can(also its a musk turtle so not a very big fish eater))

one thing tho is I will not buy equipment from a store as the markup it retarded... I usually get big als to price match petsandpond.com as it saves me a bundle and so far i haven't found a better deal


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

TCR said:


> I like IPU selection in fish, They looked healthy when i was there as well as the level of dead fish versus other places seemed very low in comparison.
> 
> I'll be taking a best friend there next weekend to look at things and get aquainted with the fish hobby (she has a turtle but wants to get some fish as well so I want to show her as much as I can(also its a musk turtle so not a very big fish eater))
> 
> one thing tho is I will not buy equipment from a store as the markup it retarded... I usually get big als to price match petsandpond.com as it saves me a bundle and so far i haven't found a better deal


Thank you for your compliments. We look forward to your visit this weekend! 
Just a comment on your pricing comment though.....stores have overhead that online companies don't. Our healthy livestock comes with costs, and most importantly staff. Finding the best deal is not always the answer. If you have any issue with a product online you have to ship it back to them. I this is a filter for example what do you do in the meantime? Probably end up buying another at a LFS. There is a lot of advantage with dealing with a LFS over online. It's hard to see fish online.......


----------



## TCR (Jul 13, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Thank you for your compliments. We look forward to your visit this weekend!
> Just a comment on your pricing comment though.....stores have overhead that online companies don't. Our healthy livestock comes with costs, and most importantly staff. Finding the best deal is not always the answer. If you have any issue with a product online you have to ship it back to them. I this is a filter for example what do you do in the meantime? Probably end up buying another at a LFS. There is a lot of advantage with dealing with a LFS over online. It's hard to see fish online.......


It is tru that shopping online can be risky.. I am a shipper/receiver too so I know how to get good deals in freight if i need to send it back, tho I do look up items before I buy, So far I have purchused from pets and pond and big als with no issues exept for a weeks wait (to me no big deal). If an item is damaged on arrival I would contact the freighter in question to cover the damage as well as visa has a good policy too. I can save about 50% shopping online as I do compare pricing and in most cases so far its worth the risk. Tho I do agree lfs is good for those who do not like it, or are unconfertable in doing so

i would not attept online shopping for livestock as I like to view and select the fish I want. Also the shipping can cause stress and so basically the ones that make it to the lfs tend to have time to recover and the weak are weeded out, hence hands down I will always buy from a good reputable fish store.

see ya'll next weekend


----------



## Ron99 (Apr 22, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Ron,
> Firstly I am actually more glad then anything that some hobbyists care enough about their hobby and the ethics surrounding the collection of certain fish.
> In regards to the Orange Spot File fish I agree that the number of these fish that are collected that end up dying is probably quite staggering. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, and to a email to you prior, these fish are net collected from my own station in Vanuatu. Handling has a lot to do with weather a otherwise tricky fish will or not survive. I export this fish to some of the largest and most reputable wholesalers in Europe who are leaps and bounds ahead of the North America market and take their hobby very seriously. Are we all wrong in our experience of this fish? I completely agree that this fish collected from the Philippines or Indonesia is practically doomed. That being said I don't import this fish from those areas, only my station. The Orange Spot File fish has recently been spawned and reared in captivity and I assure you they were not raised on coral polyps.
> 
> ...


I agree that the method of collection and handling will affect the stress level and health of the fish. And I also know that a few folks have had success keeping them with one person successfully breeding his. But that doesn't change the fact that these fish are difficult to switch onto prepared foods and are best reserved for the more advanced hobbyists. You still haven't said whether the ones you brought in were eating frozen food or flake? Or have they been going hungry for weeks to end up dead? In a way you are diverting the subject rather then directly addressing the concerns about successfully keeping these particular fish you sell in your store. Have they been eating mysis or flake in your store? If not do you know whether they are eating in the hands of the customers they went home with? Or will they just end up starving to death regardless of how healthy they may have been when they arrived in your store?

With respect to the blue ringed octopus, yes they are timid and bites are very rare in the wild. IIRC there have only been a handful of deaths attributed to them over the years. That doesn't change the fact that if a bite does occur it could easily be fatal as opposed to just painful with animals like lionfish and foxfaces etc. I have no problem with special ordering them for customers who have an appropriate system and are aware of the dangers. If I had the time and space for it I would love to set up a special tank and keep one as they are beautiful and interesting animals. But that particular octopus was obviously not a special order as it was for sale in the store. Initially it had no warning on the tank and eventually you had tiny sticker that said "venomous". So your claim that these are special order only is not completely accurate and IMO the warning label you had was completely inadequate.

As for the barracuda, I think there is a difference between arowana which are probably a much less active fish and barracuda which range in size from 2 feet for the smaller species up to 7 feet for the larger ones and are extremely fast swimming open ocean fish. Would you recommend keeping a tuna in home tank? How about a sailfish? Why not keep a 10" or 12" tang in a 2 or 3 foot long tank? That is not acceptable but putting a barracuda that will grow to a minimum of 2 feet and possibly more in a 10 foot tank is alright?

I try to choose appropriate livestock for my tank which is a 4 foot 75 gallon. I have a pair of percula clowns, a pair of firefish, a six line wrasse, a mandarin that was trained to eat frozen mysis and spirulina brine, and a small kole tang. I may add a couple other small fish: a jawfish and possibly a longnose or flame hawkfish and I would like a neon dottyback and probably a herbivorous blenny of some sort. Oh, and my 2.5 gallon pico has a single tiny shark nosed goby along with a pair of sexy shrimp and a mix of snails in it.

In any case, my stand is not firm and I am open to discussing this but to date you haven't addressed the concerns I raised so if I see a store that I feel is stocking inappropriate livestock I withhold my business as I don't want to encourage the continuation of what I feel are questionable practices. You still haven't directly said whether those filefish were eating prepared foods? Your claim of blue ringed octopus being special order only doesn't really fit the facts of the situation I saw. And the barracuda were probably an ill advised decision even for your large predator tanks and I seriously doubt there are any customers with tanks large enough to support these fish once they grow unless you sold or gave them to the Vancouver Aquarium.

Sorry if I seem rigid but so far I haven't seen any answers or information that satisfies my concerns. You are skating around the topics rather then directly addressing the particular animals and situations I observed in your store.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Ron,
I have addressed your concerns directly. Again, glad to see you are so concerned but do you really expect a store to follow up with customers to see if their fish is eating???
This is over the top now. I do wish we all lived in a world where I could spend all my time going to both locations to ensure my Orange Spot File fish are all eating. Post a video of them feeding? Really? I have already explained that wholesalers are having success with this fish overseas from my facility. We ship small controlled numbers and generally in pairs. If I am having good success with these fish as are my overseas customers, I really don't see how we can keep going on about this. It is patience and breakthroughs in this hobby that keep our knowledge moving forward. You have a Mandarin? Are you serious? *There are no absolutes in this hobby, your Mandarin has been "taught" to eat? Mandarins are one of the heaviest exploited marine fish to date. They occur in lagoons and have very specialized diets as well. How many Mandarins have died to get to where we are now? I fail to see how your Mandarin is any different to the Orange Spot File Fish. *
To say I am diverting the subject is ridiculous. I have addressed all your points individually and I am still getting the same comments back. 
I am sorry I can't seem to get through to you here. We have over 20,000 gallons to maintain on a day to day basis and I feel we do a very good job doing so. If our import choices are not to your liking there is nothing I can do about it. You can support the stores of your choice and I hope you have continued success in this great hobby.


----------



## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

This thread has wandered far afield from the OP whose question has been sufficiently canvassed. Everyone has put their two bits in and then some. Time to move on.


----------

