# im looking to buy a digital SLR, need input



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

my wife and i want to get a dSLR and take some photography classes. is there anything half decent in the 500-800 dollar range?
also we were wondering if theyre cheaper in the states? if so we might go down there for black friday in november, were not in a huge hurry.

also it doesnt need to be able to do movies we have a different camera for that already.


----------



## FatKid (Jun 25, 2010)

Electronics are definitely cheaper across the line. But keep in mind when spending that kind of money down there, you "will" be paying the HST if you declare it coming back. Have a look on a few of the sites down there and take a look at the price difference. See if it's really worth it to you. If you go down on black friday chances are huge that you will save a ton of money. I'm a canon fan... but there's a few out there in that price range.


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Well to first warn you, photography is like aquariums. When you start off you get something small (Canon Rebel XTi : 5 g tank), then you either drop the hobby and never touch it again, and try very hard to get your money back (anyone looking to pay $50 for a complete 5 gallon tank setup? Only 2 months old!) or you end up wanting something better and bigger (Canon 5D with a $3000 lens, or 120 gallon tank with a complete Co2 System and sump filter)... there may be a few steps in between!

What camera I recommend depends entirely on what you are looking to do with it. For example:
- are you planning to do 'day to day' photography? like your kids plays, soccer gamers?
- are you planning to do nature photos, like birds and plants?
- are you planning to turn it into a business eventually?
- are you going to take to traveling? (this is rather important)

Also are you and your wife going to be taking the classes together (i.e. do you need 2 camera?).

When I say photography is like aquariums, i actually mean it. I have over $6,000 in camera equipment. But that doesn't mean you need it or would actually use it. So let us know what your dreams are with photography, and we can help you decide what is the best.

By the way if you are looking for any camera equipment reviews I HIGHLY recommend Digital Cameras: Digital Photography Review, News, Reviews, Forums, FAQ. This is a WONDERFUL website. Some of the stuff does get highly technical, but what is offers is a comparison between different cameras.

I personally have a canon, but a lot of profession photographers appear to prefer Nikon. Also once you decide on a brand, there is no turning back. All of the lenses are specific to each brand, so you can upgrade within brands, but not to another brand.


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Mferko said:


> also we were wondering if theyre cheaper in the states? if so we might go down there for black friday in november, were not in a huge hurry.


They are probably cheaper in the states, but I'm not sure its worth it. First you'll have to pay tax (if you are honest ).

There are a few local camera shops that let you rent the equipment, and then apply the rental cost to the cost of a new camera if you like it... I think this one (Beau Photo Supplies) and this one (Leo's Camera Supply Ltd.) are like that.

Also if something happens its probably easier to get it fixed up here during the warranty period (i don't know... I've never done it).


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

cameras are the type of thing tourists are expected to have so its doubtful i'll declare it 
i plan to take pics of the fish so eventually i'd want to get a nice macro lens but i'll start with just the camera, wife plans to take pics of nature and we plan to use it while traveling
we'll share the camera even if we end up taking classes together which im not sure yet. (im leaning more towards taking the aquarium photography class that chris linked here)
i'll check out the website thanks.

what are the differences between the nikon/canon mainly? i seem to see alot more nikons
or olympus and pentax and sony for that matter
so many to choose from lol


----------



## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

I have a Nikon because I can get good prices on them and I like their 18-200mm lens. Having said that, that lens is clsoe to $1,000 by it self. I think one of the main consideration for DSLR is the lens. As you may want to upgrade the body as technology changes. I was told that Canon lens are generally cheaper. Some people like the colour of the Canon lens better. But that is personal preference and they are now programmable any way and could be touched up.

For the price range you are looking at, you probably get more bang for your buck with a Canon.


----------



## couch (Apr 22, 2010)

Take a look at this thread at redflagforums.com Nikon D90


----------



## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

I have the D90. Highly recommended if you can get it with the 18-105 VR lens for $899.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

whats the numbers on the lenses mean :/ im a noob

also why get the d90 over the d3100 or d5000 for example? those 2 seem more in our price range :/


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Mferko said:


> we'll share the camera even if we end up taking classes together which im not sure yet. (im leaning more towards taking the aquarium photography class that chris linked here)


I personally wont' suggest that you take photography courses together with one camera. There is A LOT to learn about photography, and most of it has to be hands on. First, if you are taking an introductory course, you need to learn about all the functions that the camera has to offer. Unlike my old analog camera, the new digital ones have TONS of features and menus that you need to go through. Second, when you start taking photos, you won't want to share the camera! It might be more fun to take the classes separately anyway, its amazing how different people see the world differently. I bet you that even if you two took the same class, your photos will turn out completely differently. 
By the way if you are going to take a photography class I highly recommend Vancouver Photo Workshop (Vancouver Photo Workshops). They have great instructors and tons of lighting equipment. (Plus as a student, I think you can get good rental rates)



Mferko said:


> i plan to take pics of the fish so eventually i'd want to get a nice macro lens but i'll start with just the camera, wife plans to take pics of nature and we plan to use it while traveling


If you are planning to do aquarium photos then i suggest you look into ISO's of each camera. Not sure if you've read some of the threads on the forum, but aquarium photography is pretty hard because of the lighting. In order to get a crisp photo without the fish blurring, you need to get a fast shutter speed, and a large aperture (the size of the aperture, or F-Stop, allows you to get more light into the lens, but the lower the F-stop of the lens, generally, the more expensive the lens). The alternative is to increase the ISO to a higher number. This allows you to 'multiply' the amount of light being detected by the sensor. The down side is the 'noise' that is generates. This is noise: Canon EOS 400D / Digital Rebel XTi Review: 17. Photographic tests: Digital Photography Review . As you increase the ISO you'll notice that the 'speckles' increase. By 1600 ISO it looks like Oatmeal. I find that for the XTi (which I had) by ISO 400 the noise was so bad it wasn't fixable (you can 'fix' it with digital software). Which is why I got rid of the XTi and got a 50D instead.

Nature photography is going to have different challenges... mainly because you are either doing landscapes, or close ups/zoom ups (like birds). These require completely different lenses than the aquarium (macro) ones. So at this point I think you are going to be investing in two different lenses.

Nikon and Canon difference? And the others? Nothing much really... At the level you are looking at all of them are probably about the same in quality. The cameras within the same manufactures will differ in quality too. (ok before I insult someone, let me rephrase. There are differences in quality between manufacturer's, but at the level you are considering, I don't think its a big deal)

Here is my suggestion. First for the body, go to a camera store, (you can go to something like futureshop, or broadway camera), and play with a few. Check out the price ranges and see what is off your list and what is on. Then go to DP review and check out the reviews. See if it meets your needs. Decide how picky you are about the photo quality ( I am super snobby about this ... I demand the best). Make sure you differentiate between the quality of the camera and the quality of the lens.

When you figure out which body you want, then consider the lenses. Some of the cameras will have a package deal, (you can get a regular lens and a zoom lens with your camera, etc). initially I suggest you just get a regular lens (or whatever package make sense). Then take the course, and get the other lenses you are interested in (or rent them for the day... its super cheap to rent for a day or a week). Now lenses are another story entirely. We'll talk another day about this.


----------



## rescuepenguin (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm happy with my Sony A380. I have only heard 1 person put it down, who was also the only person that criticized my Dodge Caravan when I purchased it earlier this year.


Steve


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

good thread! Keep it going. 

This will potentially help all future SLR buyers too.


----------



## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Mferko said:


> whats the numbers on the lenses mean :/ im a noob
> 
> also why get the d90 over the d3100 or d5000 for example? those 2 seem more in our price range :/


The D90 is overall better built. The next one up will be in the professional series. I have not done a full comparison but I think it has the bigger battery and faster response time. It has no problem keeping up with except when the battery is almost drained. My niece who shoot also party time professionla actualy used that as her spare until she got another D700.

All said I don't think there is anything wrong with the D5000 if you want a Nikon.


----------



## gmachine19 (Apr 21, 2010)

I shoot a D5000 and I want a D700 now


----------



## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

gmachine19 said:


> I shoot a D5000 and I want a D700 now


No doubt $$$$$


----------



## jkcichlid (Apr 21, 2010)

Just a thought, do you have any friends or family with a decent SLR? Maybe ask if you could try it out for a few hours as you are trying to decide what to get. Not only will you get a good feel for it, they will usually be able to tell you what they like and don't like about it, helping you make up your mind.
Whatever you learn and become aware of before buying will make you a better consumer


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

gmachine19 said:


> I shoot a D5000 and I want a D700 now


what dont you like about the d5000?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

It's not full frame. So when you shoot, it's not WYSIWYG. I have a D5000 and want a D700.


----------



## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I have a D90 and I love it. Just need more time to actually get into it now. The build quality on the D90 is substantially better than the D5000 but also much heavier. I do like the stability that extra weight gives you but after a full day with the camera around your neck or in a backpack, you do feel it. As for Nikon vs Canon, its just one of those preference things. They both probably do some different things marginally better than one another. Alot of my friends that do sports photography swear by the Canons but my professional photographer friends almost always use Nikon.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

im leaning towards the d3100 or d5000, guess i'll have to see what prices are like on black friday, just need something we can learn on now, itl be way better than my stupid little canon point n shoot im sure, getting fish in focus with that is such a pain.

or the canon XSi

which do u guys think is better?
\
also a friend said i might be able to get a used 40D for a decent price? would that be better than getting these new?


----------



## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Get a low end introductory SLR camera first to see if you're in this for the long haul. I'll repeat what others have said: photography is very, very expensive. You'll soon find the kit lens completely inadequate and will need to invest in higher quality lenses. It is at this point that most people find that they can not or will not invest the extra time and money or the go in whole hog because SLR photography is not so much the camera body as it is the glass that goes in front of it. This is because you can still take amazing photos with a good quality lens and a low end camera but not vice-versa. Secondly, the lenses that you invest in will last you multiple generations of bodies if you take care of them.

For most people, the choice comes down to between Nikon and Canon simply because they dominate the SLR market and offer the widest variety of lenses. Third party lens manufacturers like Sigma and Tamron (both of which make great lenses for much less than Canon or Nikon) also focus their product lines on the big two as well. Sony SLRs have a far more limited lens line although if you dig around most old Minolta lenses will work with them since Sony bought out Minolta's SLR line. Go with Pentax if you are an iconoclast and drive something like a Saab.

Whether you choose Nikon or Canon is mostly matter of personal preference. You can take wonderful pictures with either brand. So try to borrow a sample of both brands for a bit and see which one you like better because most likely it will be a long term marriage to a particular brand. 

I shoot Canon mostly because I have a close friend who already had several Canon lenses which I could mooch off of him.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

this thread talked me out of getting the d40 and has got me looking at the canon XSi now

Beyond snapshots - My first dSLR, learn from our mistakes! - The Something Awful Forums

or maybe a used canon d70
i want it to have the motor on the body for the focus so i can use the old lenses tho


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

anyone here used a nikon D70? 
any good?


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

fkshiu said:


> Get a low end introductory SLR camera first to see if you're in this for the long haul. I'll repeat what others have said: photography is very, very expensive. You'll soon find the kit lens completely inadequate and will need to invest in higher quality lenses. It is at this point that most people find that they can not or will not invest the extra time and money or the go in whole hog because SLR photography is not so much the camera body as it is the glass that goes in front of it. This is because you can still take amazing photos with a good quality lens and a low end camera but not vice-versa. Secondly, the lenses that you invest in will last you multiple generations of bodies if you take care of them.
> 
> For most people, the choice comes down to between Nikon and Canon simply because they dominate the SLR market and offer the widest variety of lenses. Third party lens manufacturers like Sigma and Tamron (both of which make great lenses for much less than Canon or Nikon) also focus their product lines on the big two as well. Sony SLRs have a far more limited lens line although if you dig around most old Minolta lenses will work with them since Sony bought out Minolta's SLR line. Go with Pentax if you are an iconoclast and drive something like a Saab.
> 
> ...


I second everything fkshiu just said!



Mferko said:


> im leaning towards the d3100 or d5000, guess i'll have to see what prices are like on black friday, just need something we can learn on now, itl be way better than my stupid little canon point n shoot im sure, getting fish in focus with that is such a pain.
> 
> or the canon XSi
> 
> ...


I'm not sure asking "which one of the d3100, d5000, or XSi cameras are better" will yield any useful answers. Most people stick to the brand they purchased first, so not a lot of people have used multiple brands before. I can tell you all about why I don't like the XSi, but I can't tell you how it compares to the other brands...

Wooow.... 40D is quite the jump...from the Xsi...
the 40D is a few years old, and I've never used on myself. I have the 50D (the newer version of the 40D). I absolutely LOVE this camera. The quality is great, the robustness, and the LCD are all phenomenal. I've never had any issues with it (except a firm ware issue that occurred right after it was released )

I'm not sure that I would recommend the 40D to you... It's not because of the quality, but rather because of the ease of use. The new ones (like the XTi's) are super user friendly. If you decide not to pursue photography seriously its still a wonderful camera to have. You can take it anywhere and meet a lot of your day to day needs (much better than a point and shoot). The 40D/50D on the other hand are slightly harder to use (the 50D is not too bad, the 40D I'm not sure how much user friendliness they have. The 50D, you get to cheat, so if you don't remember which button changes the ISO's, or the way it focuses, you can go to the LCD screen and find it by scrolling thorough the menu. the XTi is the same ). Also the 50D weights A LOT more than the XTi. You don't think its a big deal, but when you start traveling with it, its a huge pain. My current favorite camera/lens combo weights just under 10lb in my camera bad. Add another few for my zoom lens...

The point is if you don't decide to pursue it then the XTi is tons better. If you are considering getting second hand then, I would suggest getting the XTi second hand instead. Then take the course with it and decide what you think about it. If you want to upgrade sell the XTi (for the same price you bought it at ), and upgrade.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

Kitsune said:


> I second everything fkshiu just said!
> 
> I'm not sure asking "which one of the d3100, d5000, or XSi cameras are better" will yield any useful answers. Most people stick to the brand they purchased first, so not a lot of people have used multiple brands before. I can tell you all about why I don't like the XSi, but I can't tell you how it compares to the other brands...
> 
> ...


ive been checking craigslist and reading reviews and i decided i want something with the live view feature and since my dad has some old canon lenses (and the low end nikon bodies dont have the onboard motor for autofocus) so i'll likely get an XSi or T1i

gah, ive read soo many reviews today my eyes are sore, even went over to london drugs and held them


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Mferko said:


> ive been checking craigslist and reading reviews and i decided i want something with the live view feature and since my dad has some old canon lenses (and the low end nikon bodies dont have the onboard motor for autofocus) so i'll likely get an XSi or T1i


FYI, the old lenses may not be auto focus.
Also the live view is good for casual photos, but its ability to auto focus is not as great as without. The way you use SLR to focus, zoom etc is by using the view finder, and in this mode you can use auto focus etc. When you press the shutter the mirror inside lifts, and the light hits the sensor (rather than being redirected to the view finder), and captures the photo. In order for the live view to work, the mirror is moved up (the entire time you are in live view) and the image you see on the LCD is what the sensor is 'sensing'. But the problem with this is the camera cannot focus in this mode. So it needs to drop the mirror, focus on the object, and then lift the mirror again. So if you try it out at the store you'll notice that it takes half a a second for the camera to respond, it'll 'shutter', and the LCD screen will go black momentarily. And is ability to focus is not as crisp I hear.

Also in my option this may not be great for the longevity of the camera (please, someone contradict me). The shutter is a mechanical piece of equipment in the camera (i.e. that thing is pretty much the only thing that really moves in a camera...other than electrons, and auto focusing). This means that of the things that can break in a camera, this is high on the list. The camera keeps track of how many times the shutter has been used, its like a car's odometer. The camera's shutter actuations is recorded in the camera and tells you how many times the shutter has been actuated. (if you are looking for a used camera, this is one thing you can check to see how much it was used). I'm not sure if in live view every time you focus and it does the shutter motion, its considered an actuation though... The point is though that if you find that you need to auto focus on a on object in live view a lot before you take a photo (like a fish moving), then using live view is probably not the best idea. Plus you can see MUCH more detail through the view finder (like the focus) rather than a LCD monitor (since its now pixelated)



Mferko said:


> gah, ive read soo many reviews today my eyes are sore, even went over to london drugs and held them


... held your eyes? ew... jk.
p.s. I don't like London Drugs for camera equipment... if you want helpful staff go to an actual camera store where the guy actually owns a camera. Buying there is fine though (I price shop quite a bit). I just find London Drugs is very understaffed that they don't like waiting for you while you humm and huh over a camera.


----------



## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

London Drugs is "OK" at best for camera equipment. Head over to Broadway Camera by Oak and you're guaranteed to get a knowledgeable camera nut to talk to plus their prices at great too (for local retail). It's sort of like going to a big box LFS where the clerk may know very little about fish versus going to a small LFS and talking to a fish nerd.

The whole live view thing is essentially a comforting safety blanket for beginners who are used to shooting this way with digital point and shoots. The most accurate representation of how your picture will look is through the viewfinder using your own eye rather than the camera's interpretation of it on a little viewscreen. The is especially true if you want to shoot macro aquarium shots where your depth of field (the part of the picture that is in focus) may be razor thin.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

London Drugs is variable. The one downtown (Granville and Georgia) has several camera nuts. I bought mine from Jack Wong, who has 6 or 7 Nikons, including film ones and also shoots medium format. But as a whole, yes, LD is not the best place to get cameras, as some of the staff don't have a clue.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

i live right next to a kerrisdale camera's but they were closed, i just wanted to get a feel for the bodies and look thru them

i dont plan on using live view for everything, i just read it was really handy for being able to check if things are in focus when doing macro photography because you can zoom in. (is that false?)

so far im going with either the XSi or T1i, the ability to record video on the t1i is a plus.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The live view is good for very specific applications (like if you need to raise the camera over your head to get a shot. I never use mine when I am directly behind the camera.


----------



## neven (May 15, 2010)

has anyone tried the new EVIL camera's that released throughout this year? pretty much a compact camera with SCR sensors


----------



## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

I recently upgraded to dslr. At first i wanted to get a d5000 or d3000. BUt was talked out of it by the kind gentleman at Kerrisdale camera in North Vancouver. So I got the d 90 .It is taken me a while to get use to all the features but I love the camera. Plus If you get ur new camera at Kerrisdale camera you also get a coupon for a free 1 hr course on how to use your camera which i thought was cool.


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Mferko said:


> i dont plan on using live view for everything, i just read it was really handy for being able to check if things are in focus when doing macro photography because you can zoom in. (is that false?)


Umm... I believe its available on some (not all). You have to check.
I suppose you have a point...(but you'll have to check how much zoom you can get out of that. You'll have to go at least 3x (Totally random number of of my ummm mind, by the way) zoom to be able to see the details). I just take a WHOLE ton of photos 
Try it at the camera store and see if its worth it. I'm not sure it is....


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Kitsune said:


> I just take a WHOLE ton of photos
> Try it at the camera store and see if its worth it. I'm not sure it is....


That's the key. I got a 16 GB Class 10 SD card. You can shoot a lot of photos with that (like over a thousand) at standard res. So I shoot tons of shots when I want one shot. That's the key to shooting live action. Unless it's a flower or a person, they're not going to pose for you. So save your money from paying for those extra features like live view and spend it on memory and lenses.


----------



## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> That's the key. I got a 16 GB Class 10 SD card. You can shoot a lot of photos with that (like over a thousand) at standard res. So I shoot tons of shots when I want one shot. That's the key to shooting live action. Unless it's a flower or a person, they're not going to pose for you. So save your money from paying for those extra features like live view and spend it on memory and lenses.


Yeah, the other issue is that you can focus a lot faster without live view. I can focus and snap a shot within a faction of a second (I do it a different way than the default way, by the way). Also if you are not in live view, you can use the focus tracking method (or whatever its called... too lazy to check right now), and 'track' the fish around the tank. The camera will make sure that you're focused on the same thing the entire time, live view won't be able to do this (I'm pretty sure).

OK i got curious. I checked it for you: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/lit_files/80.pdf
see page 85 "AI Servo AF for Moving objects"


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

ok ive found a used t1i and a used d90 with low actuations on both for good prices.
by quick show of hands, which would u guys choose?


----------



## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

go with the d90.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

bonsai dave said:


> go with the d90.


i was just gonna say, i think that mighta been a stupid question lol
just read this review and looks like d90 hands down

Nikon D5000 Compared to D90 and Canon Rebel T1i / EOS 500D


----------



## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Mferko said:


> i was just gonna say, i think that mighta been a stupid question lol
> just read this review and looks like d90 hands down
> 
> Nikon D5000 Compared to D90 and Canon Rebel T1i / EOS 500D


I should hope so given how much more expensive it is.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

fkshiu said:


> I should hope so given how much more expensive it is.


Yes, this is an apples to oranges comparison. A D700 beats them all, or a Canon 5D, but only if you have a couple of grand to spare for the body.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

so as a nice close to my search i got a used d90 with less than 5000 actuations with a 18-105 VR lens for 850 dollars and it still has over a year of warranty left.

its 1099 on sale before taxes in stores. woop woop.


----------

