# Bagged fish for sale hanging on rack?



## Keri (Aug 2, 2010)

I have seen this a couple of times now, fish pre-bagged and hanging (sealed!) in racks in stores for sale like you see in fish markets in other countries. 

Why is this done? I was in a pet store today and saw this, dozens of bettas bagged in rows with a tiny amount of filthy water, for every 4 or 5 live ones there was a dead or dying one. It looked as if the bettas had been on there a long time from the amount of poop in the bags and it seems like it would be very tedious to open each one to feed and change water .... it certainly didn't look good for the fish. I did not buy any fish from there.


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## silvciv888 (May 4, 2010)

in asia it is widespread because of the high volumes they sell. saves time instead of having to slowly catch one or two tetras for a client. can satisfy multiple clients' needs.

its actually pretty neat because i woke up early one day to hit up the fish street in HK. saw most of the vendors scooping fish out of holding tanks and bagging them. i assume they are taken out of bags at end of the day.


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## hondas3000 (Apr 22, 2010)

Not just that but in Asia they drive the fish around to sell as well. It is like mobile fish store . But mostly goldfish and koi or betta.


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## plantedinvertz (Apr 21, 2010)

If there arent more than 1 betta in the bag i would not be to concerned


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

personally, I think it's a hideous practice, a step worse than bettas in cups. 

You'll be told that it's okay because bettas can breath air, but that's nonsense. Polluted water isn't good for skin, gills or long term heath. The longer in the cup or bag, the less vital the fish becomes. Bags and cups are also susceptible to wide temp swings due to drafts, further weakening the fish.

I understand that inexpensive fish are considered disposable by many, but to me, life is life.


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## Keri (Aug 2, 2010)

Ursus sapien said:


> personally, I think it's a hideous practice a step worse than bettas in cups.
> 
> You'll be told that it's okay because bettas can breath air, but that's nonsense. Polluted water isn't good for skin, gills or long term heath. The longer in the cup or bag, the less vital the fish becomes.


Yeah... it really isn't in the _fish's_ best interest to be prepackaged for sale like a can of pop in a vending machine. I guess if there were a high turnover it would be less cruel but these guys were just hanging on the rack, in a very poorly lit part of the store... They looked forgotten


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## Atom (Apr 21, 2010)

I know how you feel, Keri. 

It is hard seeing the fish bagged up like that. I can imagine feeding them would be a hassle.. Unfortunately the fish are being sold for profit and since bettas need to be separate from each other the bags are probably their solution for display once all the tiny bowls are all used up. Plus it's about getting as many fish out for the public to see and purchased so that they don't have to suffer in those even smaller bags they are shipped in! Those are even worse.

It's definitely not a perfect system for sure, but that is just my opinion of course.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

I'll chime in, why not. we keep our regular Male Bettas on racks ever since our last Betta Mania. What began as a great promotion turned into an even better way to display as many Bettas as possible. 
I would agree that it depends a lot on how fast the Bettas sell. In our case we were changing water and feeding overstock anyways so why not display them? We sell hundereds of Bettas a week, our imports of Bettas are huge in both regular and exotic because we have strong importer contacts as well as a great customer base and what I feel is a great display. I personally have never seen a bad condition since we started it and in fact, see Bettas turnover even faster.

It is true that bettas are shipped in unbelievably tiny bags so we move them into large bags as soon as they arrive. Again, their turnover is very high and as many members will confirm, the quality is great.


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## mysticalnet (Apr 22, 2010)

I would prefer to see a nice super long tank, with many many dividers with good filtration instead of bags.


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## catgoldfish (Apr 21, 2010)

It is sad. It's not just other countries. It also happens here.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Could be worse, they could be sold in a vase with a peace lily on top, roots taking up most of the water column and whole top blocked off by river rocks in a plastic casing. Oh and with instructions that you do not need to feed them because the betta eats the plant roots and that you dont need to ever change the water because the lily filters the water.

On a serious note though, whether in baggies or tanks, the condition and care of the fish are completely dependent on how responsible the shop keepers are. The way i see it is if the fish have their water changed and are fed, theres no difference between being in a small bag, or in an overcrowded tank. Storing bettas in a divided tank for sale though doesn't seem to be an efficient use of space in a fish shop. In regards to temperature shifts, i doubt there are much in a fish store. Most places dont have the bettas at the store entrance, they are in the fish room, or near enough it, where the temperatures are rather constant.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Of course everyone would love to see the ideal conditions for every fish all the time. As Neven states, space and overhead would not likely be available for such an elaborate Betta system. The truth of the matter is, many hobbyists are more concerned with price unfortunately. We maintain the highest water quality we can with all our systems and the Bettas are no different. All our Bettas have their water changed with system water on a regular basis. The turnover of these Bettas is so high that we continued displaying them in this manner. 
This thread brings to mind another thread we had when we were operating under our original name. We had a complaint regarding our cube system we used to have for marines for isolating small cowfish, shrimp etc. so they could be free from other fish aggression and easily seen. Their water was shared from our larger systems so there was no water quality issue. Still, we received complaint on this forum that we were being cruel in some way. We later removed the cube system for logistical reasons but the benefits were great. there will always be criticisms of any LFS unfortunately. 
Keep in mind as well that if a LFS gives poor care in their livestock then it effects their bottom line and is not in their interest to lose stock either, on a monetary as well as ethical level. 
Honestly, how many times have I read criticism of our Vancouver Aquarium because they had some algae on a display one day? A world class aquarium with algae, what a disaster.
The point I am trying to make here is in a situation like this one, one should not assume the fish are being mistreated or ignored. Maybe, one should assume that all factors have been considered in the decision to change the care of livestock, in this case Bettas.


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## Algae Beater (Apr 21, 2010)

mysticalnet said:


> I would prefer to see a nice super long tank, with many many dividers with good filtration instead of bags.


this isn't very practical from a retail perspective. Bettas in the wild can live their entire lives in a footprint that has filled with rainwater. they are an extremely variable fish when it comes to their habitat. as long as the water is changed regularly, this isn't a problem at all.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

The only problem that I see is many people that purchese Bettas believe that they should be kept like that for the rest of their lives or have no idea how to keep them. I feel bad for all the bettas being sold to their doom.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Momobobo said:


> The only problem that I see is many people that purchese Bettas believe that they should be kept like that for the rest of there lives or have no idea how to keep them. I feel bad for all the bettas being sold to there doom.


agreed...betta box or in a bag I don't see much difference. I really hate seeing them in homed anything less than 2 gallons myself.
Algae Beater made a good point about how they live in the wild , the temporary bag display is definitely a step up from any stagnant puddle lol
I personally know the particular LFS being referred to here takes great care of all their fish including the bagged ones & I have no problem with the way they are displayed.
I do however hate seeing them in those stupid cubes once they have made to a new home! They really are a great community fish , atleast all the ones in my tanks are. A cube that holds around half a litre of water on someones desk is simply someones selfishness depriving, one of the more beautiful fish on the market, of a home it would actually be happy in...just my 2 cents


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> ...there will always be criticisms of any LFS unfortunately... ...Honestly, how many times have I read criticism of our Vancouver Aquarium because they had some algae on a display one day? A world class aquarium with algae, what a disaster.


You were making a great argument in support of the bag system, representing the retailers position very well. You've even made me think that this may actually be a step _up_ from the cup system, assuming a short stay in the bag. 
So, why then, reduce your argument to condescension? Why trivialize a legitimate concern with mockery?


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Ursus sapien said:


> You were making a great argument in support of the bag system, representing the retailers position very well. You've even made me think that this may actually be a step _up_ from the cup system, assuming a short stay in the bag.
> So, why then, reduce your argument to condescension? Why trivialize a legitimate concern with mockery?



I was not mocking, simply stating that people in general tend to make a judgement without knowing all the facts. Keep in mind as well, my example of the Vancouver Aquarium is a valid one. If fish are dying and overall a store shows lack of concern, why not take it up with the store at the time rather than come to some sort of opinion on line which may or may not make someone rethink possibly shopping somewhere. From a business perspective, this sort of thread without first gathering all the facts can be harmful if misunderstood. Also as a paying and contributing forum sponsor, this sort of thing does bother me slightly.


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## Emily (May 4, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> The point I am trying to make here is in a situation like this one, one should not *assume* the fish are being mistreated or ignored. Maybe, one should *assume* that all factors have been considered in the decision to change the care of livestock, in this case Bettas.


I enjoyed reading your argument from the seller's standpoint and you made some very valid points. I disagree with your above statement though. I think that with any livestock being sold, people *should* be wary and not make assumptions. If they ask questions and refuse to just 'be ok' with less then adequate conditions or answers, then they will force store owners and sellers to be more conscious of ethics in the industry. It's when people *assume* that what is going on is ok is when problems surface and companies tempted to let ethics go to the wayside do so.

That said some companies do take ethics very seriously and kudos to them.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Emily said:


> I enjoyed reading your argument from the seller's standpoint and you made some very valid points. I disagree with your above statement though. I think that with any livestock being sold, people *should* be wary and not make assumptions. If they ask questions and refuse to just 'be ok' with less then adequate conditions or answers, then they will force store owners and sellers to be more conscious of ethics in the industry. It's when people *assume* that what is going on is ok is when problems surface and companies tempted to let ethics go to the wayside do so.
> 
> That said some companies do take ethics very seriously and kudos to them.


I am not suggesting people should assume everything is OK, my point is why not ask while in the store at the time? In this example a simple pm to me would have answered any question regarding this set up. This is really not that big a deal but with a little more conversation at the time, threads like this would likely not happen at all. If I had chosen not to comment on this topic I wonder where it might have gone?


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## Keri (Aug 2, 2010)

I did not start this topic to start an argument, if this goes South mods please feel free to close it.


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## Emily (May 4, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> I am not suggesting people should assume everything is OK, my point is why not ask while in the store at the time? In this example a simple pm to me would have answered any question regarding this set up. This is really not that big a deal but with a little more conversation at the time, threads like this would likely not happen at all. If I had chosen not to comment on this topic I wonder where it might have gone?


Asking in the store is what I had in mind when I was saying people should ask questions.

I don't think the original poster did anything wrong, she never targeted or named a store. In fact I have no idea what store she saw this set-up in.

The other thing is I know a lot of LFS that don't actually know very much about their livestock and set-ups. For most of my questions I would ask on BCA rather then trust a store employee to give me accurate information. Plus, for all I know, the employees in the store could have been unapproachable/rude (has happened to me before).

And if this *is* your store, I don't understand why you are unhappy as you have had the opportunity to come and explain your reasoning behind the design.

Anyway, not trying to start a fight, I always like a good debate though


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## Algae Beater (Apr 21, 2010)

The bag & rack system has three positives going for it:

-It allows the fish to be viewed and selected easily by the customer
-It saves time and effort on the part of the retailer by not requiring the catching and bagging of the fish at time of sale (time saved therefor money saved and allowing lower prices in the long run)
-The fish are safe and secure (no fin nipping from tank mates no cross contamination with sick fish) 

I do not see any negatives here. This is a GREAT system that maximizes space and efficiency for a VERY high turnover fish. Its time savers like this that allow retailers to move forward and concentrate on other more pertinent issues.

Grant has in fact done more for fish well-being in the lower mainland than most other retailers. His pursuit of informing customers to the fullest of Vancouver's extremely soft (and therefor sometimes lethal to fish) water is a rarity in the local industry and an issue that kills many more fish at other stores I reckon than a few bettas in bags.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Emily said:


> Asking in the store is what I had in mind when I was saying people should ask questions.
> 
> I don't think the original poster did anything wrong, she never targeted or named a store. In fact I have no idea what store she saw this set-up in.
> 
> ...


I love them as well, sometimes. I have started a thread in our sub forum on why it is that I would be "unhappy". There is no fight here, just a little frustration over this post and posts like it.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Algae Beater said:


> The bag & rack system has three positives going for it:
> 
> -It allows the fish to be viewed and selected easily by the customer
> -It saves time and effort on the part of the retailer by not requiring the catching and bagging of the fish at time of sale (time saved therefor money saved and allowing lower prices in the long run)
> ...


Thanks Algae Beater. Appreciate the comments.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Algae Beater said:


> The bag & rack system has three positives going for it:
> 
> -It allows the fish to be viewed and selected easily by the customer
> -It saves time and effort on the part of the retailer by not requiring the catching and bagging of the fish at time of sale (time saved therefor money saved and allowing lower prices in the long run)
> ...


Well said.


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm not sure how a question/discussion regarding a common practice in the industry became perceived as an attack on a particular store. It isn't.
As I've said elsewhere, it is an _industry-wide practice_, one that I oppose as a general statement. That said, my lfs uses betta cups, something the owners and I have discussed, but I still support the store. 
To be critical of a _wide spread, particular practice_ (and I say this as a former pet store owner) isn't a blanket condemnation of a particular store or a personal attack, any more than praising a store (which I did some months back in regards to an IPU staff member) makes me a sycophant.
Discussion is the point of a forum. As long as it doesn't degenerate into flaming, it should be encouraged.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Ursus sapien said:


> I'm not sure how a question/discussion regarding a common practice in the industry became perceived as an attack on a particular store. It isn't.
> As I've said elsewhere, it is an _industry-wide practice_, one that I oppose as a general statement. That said, my lfs uses betta cups, something the owners and I have discussed, but I still support the store.
> To be critical of a _wide spread, particular practice_ (and I say this as a former pet store owner) isn't a blanket condemnation of a particular store or a personal attack, any more than praising a store (which I did some months back in regards to an IPU staff member) makes me a sycophant.
> Discussion is the point of a forum. As long as it doesn't degenerate into flaming, it should be encouraged.


The point is the original post, not yours. The original post stated there were dying or dead bettas every 5 bettas or so. There were not AND they were in very dark conditions as the light has burnt out that evening. As we are to my knowledge the only stores that have started displaying Bettas in this manner it does seem quite likely that that connection could be made. I have no problem at all discussing the trade in general, not the case from the original post. As a former pet store owner I would think by reading the first post it would be obvious where I am coming from.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

keep in mind she's in sechelt so it may not have been your store


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

neven said:


> keep in mind she's in sechelt so it may not have been your store


Already confirmed that she was referring to Richmond. I feel a little bad that this may reflect poorly on the original member starting the post. She was concerned which I can appreciate. This is only being used as an example because of its form of delivery.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

I'd rather see them in bags with the water changed and kept clean than in uncleaned bowls. But it's a perennial issue - the store has to balance ideal conditions for the livestock with floor space and staff time. 

Personally, I'm as concerned with what happens after the fish are sold. Are there any stores who hand out care info for bettas when they're sold, or even provide a web link to a page with info? I'd love to see that happening. It might at least get through to some of the people who buy them and have no clue about caring for them. What I really hate are the people who take them home and keep them in little vases or teensy cups because they saw that at the store and don't bother to learn what they need.  I know that in the wild they live in puddles, but this isn't the wild, they aren't wild caught fish, and they really do better in at least 2 gallons with some kind of filtration. 

I've got a lovely healthy crowntail from IPU who was bagged, and he's enjoying life in a 5 gallon planted Chi with a couple of frogs and ghost shrimp.  My other betta was living in a shot glass at Eric's sale before I got him (yes, a shot glass, you read that right), and now has a 3 gallon picotope. They are so much happier than they would be in a tiny bowl.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

IPU has handouts and books on keeping Bettas. Many Bettas do end up in community aquariums as well as smaller aquariums.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm aware of that - you guys are one of the stores I've been at who has the care books right up front, which is great, and the staff member who I dealt with was actually discussing care with a few people who were new to fish looking at the bettas. One of the reasons we come back to IPU is that you do promote education to hobbyists.

I'd love to put my guys in larger community tanks, and I've seen it work for others, but my own bettas are, shall we say, antisocial.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Often Bettas hang out in a very small area if they are in an aquarium that is too large. Every fish deserves room but how much room is really determined by the hobbyist in the end.


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## ladysylvanas (Dec 5, 2010)

I have been an IPU customer for over 10 years. I started to only go to Big Als as they were straight up with the information they gave, and made it clear that, even though they are a business, they were more concerned about the well being of the animals they sold than the actual profit. There have been many times that I have been browsing that I have overheard different staff members educating new or experienced fish owners. Grant has a lot of valuable information, and makes a point to pass it along to his staff. Keep in mind, not everyone can know everything, but the honesty I have experienced at his stores is awesome, not something you find very often. 
As for the bettas, I have asked about the bag system. I was assured that they are regularly taken care of, water changes and feeding as much as, if not more than, the ones in the bowls. The bettas are one of their biggest sellers, so I know that they take every action necessary to ensure they are well taken care of.
If I were in Grant's shoes I would be concerned about this thread as well. Not so much about the poster, but about the negativity that came across from the choice of words used. Unfortunately in this day and age negative comments have more affect than positive one.
For the record, I have NEVER been to IPU and experienced a rude employee! They are always willing to help, even when it's a crazy Saturday at shark feeding time. However, I HAVE noticed customers being rude to the employees. Retail is a hard industry, and you can really tell who has never worked in it before. Can you imagine working in the tropical humidity the store needs to keep (for the fishes benefit) for any amount of time, while running around trying to help as many customers as possible while still giving great customer service? Kudos to all the staff at IPU. 10/10


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## Keri (Aug 2, 2010)

FOR THE RECORD.....
I Never said to Anyone which store I am talking about, I am not trying to slander Anyone. I was simply unhappy with the situation that I saw on that particular day in that particular store (which shall remain nameless).

The conditions that I saw on that day were as I described, but no, I haven't been to Richmond in months, you just assumed.

My _personal opinion_ is that it seems like it would be more work to open and close several dozen bags at least once or twice a day than it would be to simply dump a betta from a cup into a bag at the time of purchase, but I don't consider the bags "cruel" in themselves, just more time, and maybe I caught them on a bad day.


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## ladysylvanas (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't think anyone thinks you intentionally tried to slander anyone. As Grant said before, as far as he knows he is the only business displaying bagged bettas. I think that would be a fair assumption, especially since your post in his rant thread said you did receive a PM from him but did NOT reply back. As I've said before, negative comments go much father than positive ones. The internet has a long memory!


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

ladysylvanas said:


> I don't think anyone thinks you intentionally tried to slander anyone. As Grant said before, as far as he knows he is the only business displaying bagged bettas. I think that would be a fair assumption, especially since your post in his rant thread said you did receive a PM from him but did NOT reply back. As I've said before, negative comments go much father than positive ones. The internet has a long memory!


LOL ....read post #1 the first 2 paragaphs ... Keri made that post 27 posts later . 
Maybe she thought it a negative pm ( gee wonder what was said ) ...maybe matbe not. 
I fail to see why a person can't ask for an opinion or ask a question regarding anything with out some one thinking their toes are being steped on... 
Keeping fish in bags hanging on a rack . personaly them people should have their head examaned.....( personal opinion NOT up for debate  ) .
You can justify anything if its you doing it.....

See many farmers that have caged chickens poping out eggs all day long telling you its not okay and they should not do that?

Go get your door painted on your car ...oh its a tad off in colour ...take it back and ask them ...think they will say oh yes it is a bit off let us redo it for you....LMAO Wake up!

Lets feed that goose food till it almost pops for 6 months then rip its organ out and eat it ....been doin that for years ( barap  ) Dont really make it right but acceptable to some .

The original post was asking about the practice of fish in bags ......
Then awaaay it went till it got here 

But heres my op on betta cups ...they suck no matter what store or even in your house ...they suck . Its the conveinence more than any thing . I mean how much easier can it be...pick up a cup and pour it into the bag  v/s using a net . a long tank with dividers now thats the way to keep then .

Mind you cup are better than in bags attached to a big roladex


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Aquaman said:


> LOL ....read post #1 the first 2 paragaphs ... Keri made that post 27 posts later .
> Maybe she thought it a negative pm ( gee wonder what was said ) ...maybe matbe not.
> I fail to see why a person can't ask for an opinion or ask a question regarding anything with out some one thinking their toes are being steped on...
> Keeping fish in bags hanging on a rack . personaly them people should have their head examaned.....( personal opinion NOT up for debate  ) .
> ...


Hello again Aquaman!

I really did not want to get into this again but I cant ignore your post either. If the original post was the first line alone it would have been more of a debate as to what people think about all the different methods of keeping Bettas. The second half of the post was much stronger and gave specific examples which from anyone on this forum who has seen us displaying Bettas in this fashion for over a year now would know it was us. My issue was more based on the delivery and how it can be perceived on the mighty internet. Let alone on a sponsored forum. 
Comparing cruelty to food animals and a Betta is an interesting parallel and yes, mankind can be very cruel. Of course if people were willing to pay more for eggs etc. perhaps that would not be an issue. I buy free range myself, and with that and my fast turnover of displayed Bettas, I sleep just fine.
In the Betta case, yes perhaps there are people who would love to see a single Betta hanging around in the corner of a 100 gallon aquarium rather than a bowl and yes maybe the hobbyists that have Bettas living for 6+ years in small aquariums are cruel although I would disagree on this based on where these fish exit in the wild. We would never promote a Goldfish in a bowl but I am certain there are many stores that find this acceptable. At what point is a fish in a box cruel or acceptable? There is a question for you.

By the way my head does not need an exam, works just fine.


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Hello again Aquaman!
> 
> I really did not want to get into this again but I cant ignore your post either. If the original post was the first line alone it would have been more of a debate as to what people think about all the different methods of keeping Bettas. The second half of the post was much stronger and gave specific examples which from anyone on this forum who has seen us displaying Bettas in this fashion for over a year now would know it was us. My issue was more based on the delivery and how it can be perceived on the mighty internet. Let alone on a sponsored forum.
> Comparing cruelty to food animals and a Betta is an interesting parallel and yes, mankind can be very cruel. Of course if people were willing to pay more for eggs etc. perhaps that would not be an issue. I buy free range myself, and with that and my fast turnover of displayed Bettas, I sleep just fine.
> ...


First off Grant ...I do not believe you need any kind of examination . ( not until I see fish in bags on racks in your store )..please don't tell me you do ....havent been in for a while , but I do have sweet little 5 gallon tank...maybe I will come just for a beta and see for my self .
No you guys are Not the only place I have seen betas in cups . Actually I have NEVER seen your display at all ( may of walked by it but never noticed.)...You have many more fish that appeal to me . I have seen em in cups at a your local corner Mom and Pop and other stores... I'm pretty sure its a common practice ....better than a muddy footprint . 
Tho I am sure that they would appreciate a bigger space. Just a matter of opinion. I ain't not fish guru let me tell ya .
As far as comparing it to animal cruelty that too is an opinion .Some people like to go out in the fall and kill animals to eat ...some don't . It does not make it wrong to each ,their own.
Nothing personal here at all Just thought that lately every thread that has to do fish fish ethics goes south real fast ....maybe I should keep my opinions to myself...then everyone would be happy .
Sometimes I think you take thing a little to personal. 
I don't see any harm in a thread that discusses a store that is not named .It could be worse ( Remember pet smart and Walmart ) How can that be any harm. its not like your biggest customer base is here as well most of us see past the whining ( NO not you ) I personally like your place. I also like allot of others .
Its going to get to the point instead of asking " what do you think of fish in bags or fish in cups and have a pole ( sp? ) set up to get feed back. Other wise your the bad guy...I personaly feel thats sad . The stepping on toes and walking on rice paper feel is well...underwhelming.
So having said that and maybe upsetting the higher power's that be ( No not you )....... I say... HAPPY FRIDAY EVERY ONE !!!
You too Grant!! and I will be in for a beta ...should I ask for you ? ..will they be in the back storage room near that bat . just curious .
Bill


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

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