# This is a big reason why marine fish are so expensive



## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Rare fish collector Rob Lower dies of dive-related injuries

People die all the time collecting SW fish from the depths. So the next time you see some hyper expensive marine fish at the LFS, remember that someone risked his/her life to get it to the store.


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

Very sad to hear that . Sounds like he had a real passion for angle fish. Sad to see such a great collectoer of fish ,die so young doing what he loved. Sad day indeed.


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## darb (Apr 21, 2010)

Definitely a sad event, and not a pleasant way to go. But all too often, it is the "pros" in any industry who become lax and accustomed to high risk activities and start taking short cuts or pushing limits. No idea about rebreathers, but for scuba as long as you stick to a recognized dive table such as the Canadian DCIEM tables, you are almost guaranteed not to have a gas related dive issue.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Awww... sigh.. so sad to hear that!


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

aw, thats sad
for me it raises the question why we dont captive breed more species instead of risking peoples lives?
are marine fish much harder to breed or do consumers just demand wild caught?
i'd think with the prices if you could successfully breed them en masse there would be a lot of money to be made?


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## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Mferko said:


> aw, thats sad
> for me it raises the question why we dont captive breed more species instead of risking peoples lives?
> are marine fish much harder to breed or do consumers just demand wild caught?
> i'd think with the prices if you could successfully breed them en masse there would be a lot of money to be made?


Very few marine species have been successfully bred in captivity. Not only is very little known about many marine species' mating habits, it's just next to impossible to replicate their natural environments especially with deepwater species that this diver specialized in. For the foreseeable future, wild collection is the only option even for some of the most commonly sold marine fish such as tangs and large angels.


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## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

This guy may have very well collected this fish on one of his last outings:
Holanthias fuscipennis **SALE PRICE** - Canreef Aquatics Bulletin Board

Kinda creepy if you think about it.


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

A little creepy, but very, very, cool that we could possibly trace back the origins of our finned friends.

It is a little saddening, however, to realize that many fish in pet stores were collected from the wild. I mean, it's not really an infinite resource, is it?

Are there farms, at least? Similar to how some corals are raised?


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## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Mariculture coral farms are relatively easy to do because corals don't move around. They just sit there and grow. Ocean going fish, on the other hand, don't like to sit still. Many fish can range over hundreds of square kilometers. What's really eye opening is the power that the tangs in my own aquarium have. They can shoot across a 6-foot tank without any effort at all with one flick of the tail. So even if you were to have a massive aquarium in a public aquaria it would still probably be difficult to observe any mating behaviour. Deep water species have to added issue of trying to replicate the water pressure at depth.

In contrast, the collection and breeding of most FW is a relatively simple procuedure because they don't live at great depths nor do individual FW fish usually range over a wide area.


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

fkshiu said:


> Mariculture coral farms are relatively easy to do because corals don't move around. They just sit there and grow. Ocean going fish, on the other hand, don't like to sit still. Many fish can range over hundreds of square kilometers. What's really eye opening is the power that the tangs in my own aquarium have. They can shoot across a 6-foot tank without any effort at all with one flick of the tail. So even if you were to have a massive aquarium in a public aquaria it would still probably be difficult to observe any mating behaviour. Deep water species have to added issue of trying to replicate the water pressure at depth.
> 
> In contrast, the collection and breeding of most FW is a relatively simple procuedure because they don't live at great depths nor do individual FW fish usually range over a wide area.


if i didnt think i'd be able to provide an adequate environment for a fish to breed in i probably just would leave it in its environment where it will be happier. its different if the wild caught fish can be used to breed which can potentially save many other fish from having to be wild caught i guess.
+ i couldnt afford to get one, lol


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

It's easy to see why the government can be so stickler about removing animals from the wild, then.

It's not often I question the ethics of our hobby - but it's always troubling.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Unfortunately its a risk he was willing to take, one that should be reserved for people without families. I've worked with a deep sea diver who gave up his previous career because he got married and decided to have a family.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

This is a very sad accident indeed. Scuba diving is a risky hobby and people who dive commercially have risk every dive. Scuba is not fool proof, accidents do unfortunately happen with any equipment. There has been countless accidents with divers on a recreational level. You are operating underwater with restrictions and guidelines. Even if these guidelines are followed, accidents can happen. I am sure the diver in question, along with most fish collecting divers would agree that he died doing what he loved. The deeper the fish, the greater the risk but like any explorer, the glory is in what the see and in some cases, bring back to the surface. 
Rebreathers are complex in their training working with mixing different gas mixtures at depth. If he was using a Rebreather at 250 feet plus, there is advanced training involved and a lot of monitoring. Sadly, there are many divers lost in this trade yet the majority of hobbyists tend to be more concerned by price. The majority of accidents are in the Philippines and Indonesia where equipment is bare bones or even free diving.


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> This is a very sad accident indeed. Scuba diving is a risky hobby and people who dive commercially have risk every dive. Scuba is not fool proof, accidents do unfortunately happen with any equipment. There has been countless accidents with divers on a recreational level. You are operating underwater with restrictions and guidelines. Even if these guidelines are followed, accidents can happen. I am sure the diver in question, along with most fish collecting divers would agree that he died doing what he loved. The deeper the fish, the greater the risk but like any explorer, the glory is in what the see and in some cases, bring back to the surface.
> Rebreathers are complex in their training working with mixing different gas mixtures at depth. If he was using a Rebreather at 250 feet plus, there is advanced training involved and a lot of monitoring. Sadly, there are many divers lost in this trade yet the majority of hobbyists tend to be more concerned by price. The majority of accidents are in the Philippines and Indonesia where equipment is bare bones or even free diving.


thats also the two places using cyanide to catch fish is most common
Cyanide fisheries: Where did they start


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

Cyanide! It just gets better and better.


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## bvlester (Jul 19, 2010)

that was a very sad accident. but the majority of the cost comes from your LFS. I have seem many price lists for both FW and SW. I was helping a guy out that was importing fish he was paying very little for the fish the same fish local LFS have for 3 to 4 time what he was charging. unfortunately here in the interior the LFS are gouging us. I do not buy locally I go down to the coast and visit Paul at Paul's aquatics as he guarantees his SW for 7 days. His prices are good and I know he tries what ever he can to make sure you get good quality fish. 

Bill


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## flems (Sep 27, 2010)

Sad to see this happen. Diving is extremely risky!

What I find ironic is the price we pay here at the LFS for any given fish vs what it is originally bought for off collectors. Then again welcome to our economy.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

I think you mean welcome to priority air freight and overhead........


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

Not to mention inevitable losses...


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

I am having a problem leaving this one alone. A diver dying in Hawaii has nothing to do with the "high" cost of Marine fish. 
A huge amount of Marine fish are collected in third world countries with incredibly low overhead, they sell their collection to the local wholesalers. These wholesalers warehouse these fish for a period and then export them by air. Air freight for live tropical fish is VERY high. On top of this is a charge for the packing materials, permits, fuel surcharge and various others. These fish are then shipped to an overseas wholesaler or in some cases direct to the retailer or through a transhipper. 
This may seem like a lot of handling unnecessarily but logistically no other way is possible. 
Other countries can ship more directly cutting back on some of the handling along the way. Those countries have much higher overhead then the others because of the individual economies, currency value, etc. Also the more distant or isolated collection area, the higher the freight incurred.
For myself in Vanuatu, we have advanced systems, our divers are higher paid and our overhead is higher due to the dollar value locally etc.
We survive because of the quality of our livestock and the unique fish we collect. 
In my opinion marine fish are being sold far cheaper than they should be. The risk in collection is high, particularly in the developing countries. Maybe if divers were not pushed to collect more and more because of the low prices offered to them there would not be as many mortalities. Incidentally, the majority of divers in the Philippines and Indonesia are independent. They collect for themselves and sell to the wholesaler. If they focused on quality and were paid more for their fish, they would not have to dive as much or as aggressively to earn the same money. Unfortunately I don't think this will ever change as there are too many wholesalers etc. trying to be the cheapest.
Many importers in Europe are actually taking a stand and ordering less from areas like these and focusing more on quality and promoting that to support the higher price they have to pay. From what I have seen personally it is working in some areas. Other areas are too fixed on low prices to make a positive change. 
Is your purchase of a marine fish really a good deal if it's organs are destroyed by the poison it was caught with? How about if the collector died? Good deal? These are the things hobbyists don't hear about. Maybe not even the store owners. 
There are times when I want to scream at a few customers who will compare our fish to another store whom I know are a far inferior quality of fish. Unfortunately I know it will likely fall on deaf ears as to those customers, a coral beauty is a coral beauty, no matter where it comes from.

There, I feel a little better. Sort of.


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## Koi Kichi (Oct 23, 2010)

very inspiring story....makes me see my sw fish in a whole new light. thnx for that fkshiu.....sw fish have an extreemly diverse amount of breeding patterns....it is extremely hard for humans to be able to mimic them for the fish..


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

so sorry to read about this death... reminds me of that steve irwin fellow. at least they died doing what they loved



Rastapus said:


> In my opinion marine fish are being sold far cheaper than they should be. The risk in collection is high, particularly in the developing countries. Maybe if divers were not pushed to collect more and more because of the low prices offered to them there would not be as many mortalities. Incidentally, the majority of divers in the Philippines and Indonesia are independent. They collect for themselves and sell to the wholesaler. If they focused on quality and were paid more for their fish, they would not have to dive as much or as aggressively to earn the same money. Unfortunately I don't think this will ever change as there are too many wholesalers etc. trying to be the cheapest.
> Many importers in Europe are actually taking a stand and ordering less from areas like these and focusing more on quality and promoting that to support the higher price they have to pay. From what I have seen personally it is working in some areas. Other areas are too fixed on low prices to make a positive change.
> Is your purchase of a marine fish really a good deal if it's organs are destroyed by the poison it was caught with? How about if the collector died? Good deal? These are the things hobbyists don't hear about. Maybe not even the store owners.
> There are times when I want to scream at a few customers who will compare our fish to another store whom I know are a far inferior quality of fish. Unfortunately I know it will likely fall on deaf ears as to those customers, a coral beauty is a coral beauty, no matter where it comes from.
> ...


Have to agree with that...

I understand that these divers stay down for very long periods of time collecting anything they can and then return to the surface, risking the dangers associated, basically in order to survive and feed their families

at first i was amazed at the high price of that fish, but $1400 for a super rare and exotic creature that had to be specifically hunted down and expertly cared for (decompression, etc.) really doesn't seem like that much to ask anymore


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## Timbits (Nov 15, 2010)

that is so sad


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