# yet another question....



## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

Seriously feeling frustrated. And feeling like giving up on the fluval edge, it is very difficult and I'm just learning and making more mistakes then i'd like to admit.
Changing my tanks probably too often and too quickly stressing the fish or something. bah!

Anyways, some of you may remember me getting this tank in a total state of disrepair, hundreds of trumpet snails, an algae ball, one live fish just to name a few, I washed most of it very thoroghly only to find out to my shagrin, that I had probably done to good a job and killed all the bacteria. Not having anywhere else to put the green fire tetra, I put it back in the tank, added some "cycle" and got a lil amonia tester. 

After about 3 wks of no amonia (still haven't seen any) I added 3 guppies 1m:2females) I bought the fish from Petsmart, they've never really looked healthy to me, but always seem quite happy and content and even come to greet me when I come to the tank. I also added 3 oto's ( I know it was overstocked a bit, but with good filtration and weekly water changes I was confident I could do it. 

Then things started going sour. The guppies started flashing alot, they didn't show (and still don't show) any sign of velvet or ich except the flashing. I checked the water last week it was good. Thought that since the filter hadn't been changed in a year that I should buy some media. I rinsed the carbon in used aquarium water and added it to the acmini. The ph dropped from 7.4 to 6.6 but still no probs with other water parameters, amonia and nitrite was zero, nitrate was 2.5 previously it was 0. 

As suggested by others, I added aquarium salt to try to safely treat the fish for Ich and the ph dropped to 6.2 and now the nitrates are up to 30.

Last Oto died yesterday. I'll be doing a 30% water change tonight. But not sure whether to add salt or even if it's worth trying to fix, since i'll be starting the bigger tank soon.

I've kept fish before many years ago, I don't remember it being this crazy, but then again it was a 20g, never had any problems with it, ever.

What should I do??? Should I just do water changes? Should I keep adding salt? Or maybe more on to Copper just to make sure? Can I put the guppies in a small fishbowl temperarily to treat with copper? I don't really have a hospital tank, all I have available is a 3 gal eclipse with nothing in it.

sorry to be such a pain, with so many rookie questions. The more I learn, the more I realize I know nothing. And I know this isn't my only frustrated thread. This tank is nothing but a headache at the moment.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm just going to go ahead with the water change and not add anymore salt til I hear back from some one.


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## pistolpete (May 2, 2010)

small tanks are far more difficult than large ones. I would hazzard a guess here: you added too many fish too quickly. This resulted in a temporary ammonia spike which burned the gills of your fish. Hence the flashing. Bacterial colonies in the filter adjust to new bioloads, but while that is happening, things can get a little wonky. in a small tank like that you should introduce no more than one fish per week

Salt will not do any harm, a level of about one teaspoon for the 6 gallon tank is good. So if you are changing 30% add 1/3 teaspoon. Make sure it's not table salt. 

Ottos are notoriously prone to dying. Usually this is due to the way they are collected in the wild. So don't beat yourself up over that.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

Actually, i had a similar thing happen to me about 3 weeks ago; the fish are probably dying because of the pH crash. I'm assuming the pH went from 7.4 ro 6.2 in a short period of time, 2-3 days? Check your KH, and if it's not at 3-4 at least, add some kind of buffer (you pH will rise too, probably to the high 7's depending on which buffer you use). The excess fish probably caused a mini-cycle as well and may have weakened the fish further. These two things combined probably killed off your otos, which are quite sensitive to fluctuations.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks for your input, I know it's not an amonia spike, I have an insert that monitors amonia inside the tank, plus I do weekly tests before i change the water to make sure everything is ok because i don't fully trust the strip.

I was kinda thinking it might have been the ph, I don't have a kh test, just amonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph. I was watching the fish very closely and their fins where healthy, the guppies where flashing, but otherwise fine, they were just kinda pale (but that was since day one)

The oto's where quite active and i watched them all for fast breathing etc. They would stick to the glass in a row and as far as i could tell all was good. 

Just so frustrating.

What can be used as a buffer? And do you think the guppy's are ok, or should i use the copper just to be safe?


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

First I suggest you get a KH AND GH test kit, and then get some buffer. IPU carries several types of buffers (alkaline, acid, neutral). I personally use the alkaline buffer + acid buffer, to keep the pH at about 7.5, or lower. You could of course use baking soda, which wil work in a pinch, but can be unpredictable, meaning pH spikes, if you're not careful. I'd hold off on the meds for now; fish flash because of many things, all of which are due to discomfort. A pH crash, parasites, excess nitrogenous wastes, high/low temperature, or simply stress can all cause a fish to flash or scrape against the decor. Buff up the tank first, and see if the flashing goes away, if not, then I would start searching for other possible stressors and parasites (they don't have to be ich/velvet, and can be internal as well).


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## Discus (Apr 23, 2010)

heres what I was told by someone I know do not mess with your ph let it stable is self. Also just do one water change once every two weeks use a buffer and prime and you should be good. Also when you get a new cartage soak it in tank water before putting it in your fiter. If you follow this your fish should be fine. Amonia is often from over feeding or a dead fish.


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## pistolpete (May 2, 2010)

for a small tank like that, go down to the beach and pick up a handfull of shells. Put them in the tank (crushed or whole). You will get a permanent, natural, slow release buffer that way.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

thanks for the suggestion, I know there are lots of things to help and buy, but at this point, if it's not free or under 5 bucks, it's out of the question. I've already spent a ton of money I don't have on these tanks.


> First I suggest you get a KH AND GH test kit, and then get some buffer.


That is exactly what i did do. There where no amonia issues, just ph. Although I assume the amonia must have spiked when the 2 ottos died and that is why the nitrates now.


> Also when you get a new cartage soak it in tank water before putting it in your fiter.


Thanks, I'll do that. I believe that is what the lady at petland suggested for my son in law to do as well but for a hardwater issue. She said to boil them for 30mins first tho.


> for a small tank like that, go down to the beach and pick up a handfull of shells. Put them in the tank (crushed or whole). You will get a permanent, natural, slow release buffer that way.


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## TomC (Apr 21, 2010)

If you want to test the kh and gh, drop by here with some water. You can use my kit.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks Tom, i may just do that. I was also thinking of going to the lfs as well, then I could get both tanks done and verify my results as well.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

while I was at the lfs to buy a scrubber, I got the water tested. kh is 20 and ph is still 6.2 everything else is back to normal.


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## Ebonbolt (Aug 12, 2011)

Was the test done with a test strip or a bottle and test tube? 20ppm works out to be about 1 dKH, which isn't really enough to keep the pH high.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

it was done with a strip, it was darker then first number but much lighter then the second. I did the other 3 tests with the test tube at home.

I'm going to the beach tomorrow to pick up some sea shells to help buffer the tank.


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## teija (Sep 30, 2010)

Oh dear...so sorry to hear about all of your setup problems, and sorry to see that you have now listed the tank for sale...  We have all had a nightmare or two like this in the early stages of setting up our tanks, so don't let it put you off the hobby. Having said that, the smaller tanks are SO much harder to set up and cycle, and it is best not to overload them with more than a fish or two for the first 6-8 weeks IMO. 

I have PM'd you - would like to give the tank a good home if you still want to part with it.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks, it's a great tank, but because I am still learning, I think it would be better to go with something a bit more forgiving. I am cycling a 33 gallon and picked up a cheap 15 gallon that I will use a divider in to make 3 little homes for my betta, frogs and shrimps.

Hopefully that will be easier to manage since it will be only minimally stocked.


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