# LED Question



## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

I have a 75 gal planted tank, low light but co2 injected (just a little bit). Currently it's running 4xt5's (not HO) on it.

Well, the bulbs are getting kind of old and due for a replacement. Looking at the fixtures they look to be a little bit tired too... so i'm considering a few options.

a) Add a couple of 10w led's to the tank just to add some more light where I have plants. This should "make up" for the lost output of the t5's. This is super cheap setup. Off Dealextreme, driver + 10w unit is less than $18 shipped 

b) Replace the entire light setup with 4 10w led units.. for a total of about 40w of power. This install would be an easy install as I only have to deal with 4 led units. And the units can all be powered off a single meanwell driver.

c) Setup 2 banks of 8-12 3w cree led's.. one for each "side" of the tank. Most expensive setup. As I don't have any suitable heatsinks at home, this would be over $200 setup.



I have worked with the cree's before (I have six 3w r6 chips on my 10 gal tank) and I know this setup works well. The only reason i'm looking at the bigger 10w units is for ease of wiring. I found working on the led's last time that soldering the wires was a PAIN as the led's where attached to the heat sink and basically cooled faster than a soldering iron could heat it up.......

Having said that, Are there any reviews of the 10w led units and if they put out the "correct" light for a planted tank? Is there a reason I don't see them being used very often? I guess the last question would be.... is a 10w chip equal in output to 10w worth of cree's.......


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## monocus (Sep 27, 2010)

10 watt is overkill.i assume this is a freshwater tank,even 3 watt leds is lots.you could get away with 1 watt leds,but include some reds for your plants.


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Jonney_boy said:


> is a 10w chip equal in output to 10w worth of cree's.......


That is the confusing part. I was just going to order some more 3W XP-G at RapidLED. They just put out some Cree XM-L 3W rated at 700 lumen (with max current at 3A) which is almost double that XP-G but also almost double in price. They use a higher power driver, the dimmable ballast is not yet available - non-dimmable is.

You may want to check with Anthony what lumen a 10W chip puts out. I think it is 700lumen. Theoretically, it should be 3 times that of the 3W but the XM-L allows you to run max 3A whereas the 10W plate has a max current at 1A. So they end up with the same lumen.

If the lumen value is the same, then Rapid LED Cree XM-L may be a better buy with different degree lenses. They get some pretty cheap MeanWell driver as well.

I am ordering something probably tomorrow if you want to hitch a ride to the other side of the border - I have a mailbox there. Free ship but I may even expedite it for like $7 UPS.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Lumens and PAR are two different things and one may not indicate the value of the latter.

The 10w LEDs I used all had almost the same PAR readings up close, even though the whites were 700 lm to 750 lm and the Blues were under 300 lm. According to the PAR meter, didn't matter the lumens stated for the different 10w LEDs I am using, the PAR at least up close were identical. This is only true for the ones I tested and use. I cannot vouch for other LEDs.


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

Thanks for the offer Gklaw... but i'm still debating what i'm going to do.. so no order in the next few days.. (also... rapid led will ship to Canada for a charge if you don't feel like driving down... gas is expensive.).

You have a very good point. The 10w plate puts out 1/3 the light of the new XM-L chips (lumen per watt.. both the 10w plate and the 3w XM-L chips put out approx 700 lumen's)... which means if the spectrum is similar, the XM-L chip is much better... ok.. that answers that question.

Having said that. I have used both the XP-E (Q5) led's.. the XP-G's (R5).. and the XM-L (t6) chips at home. granted only the XP-G's on a fish tank. The other two are in flash lights.

The XP-G's are good bang for the buck, choice of lenses is excellent.. but permanent. You have to clue the lenses onto the led's. Heat on these led's are also very easy to manage. I have 6 on a 4x9 heatsink and without a fan it only get's "slightly warm". I am driving them at 1A. I would not be worried if I wanted to run say 10 or 12 on that heatsink without a fan.

The XL-M is a much bigger led the die is bigger.. and can be driven up to 3A. They are bright.. but run very warm. I have it in a flashlight and it works well as a hand warmer in cold weather.. LOL. If the output spectrum is correct, this looks to be an excellent led. Only catch. I only see one driver that can drive them... and it's $$
Mean Well HLG-185-42B dimmable Driver
Mean Well HLG-185-42B dimmable Driver - Rapid LED

from what I can see, you can drive 14 led's with this driver. But you will also need a pwm dimming circuit (more work or $$) I don't see a non-dimmable driver that can put a full 3a to the led's. Final thing I can add is with the XM-L's, you are putting a LOT of light onto a very small area. I'm not sure if coverage is going to be a problem without putting yourself into a "too much light" situation. Again, this depends on where the lights are located relative to the top of the tank. On my 75 gal, currently the t5's are just sitting right on the glass top to maximize their output.

As


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Thanks for the info !!

I have 36X XP-G already so just adding 8 XM-L. The beauty of the Rapids, I can add and delete relatively cheap.

If the colour is not what I want. O well, for $80, I will use it for FW or around the house for crying out loud  Plus the 20" heat sink is predrilled for 36 LEDs, Yike !!

Drivers are:

Mean Well ELN-60-27D dimmable driver - Rapid LED or Mean Well LPC-60-1750 constant current driver - Rapid LED

Shipping to Canada is $35 but I have to pay for handling at the mailbox. The only reason I would drive down to the border is to avoid the risk of broker charge. Last time I sent a IceCap ballast down for warranty. I have to pay almost $90 between broker fee and taxes !! I also don't trust Canada Post for anything odd.


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

Sounds good... if heat is not a problem.. get the "biggest" driver you can. 

If memory serves me right, last time I looked @ the XM-L chips their light output goes up a LOT as you increase in amperage, without much increase in power consumption. In other words, the harder you drive them, the more "bang for the buck" you will get.... provided you can manage the heat.

They are rated for a 3A max current. The first driver you have will give it 2.3A and the second one will drive it at 1.7A. Anything under 1A and you might as well run the cheaper XP-G's.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

But if you overdrive LEDs, you greatly shorten their useful life as far as I know. Mine are slightly underdriven for this very reason.


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

yes I fully agree.. but they are rated for 3a. Anything under (and including) a 3A driver is well within their operating specs.... again... only if you can keep them cool.

Pushing them past 3A is a bad idea...(but fun). Catch now is that finding a driver that even comes close to maxing them out at 3a is "hard"..... without spending big $$


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Jonney_boy said:


> Sounds good... if heat is not a problem.. get the "biggest" driver you can.
> They are rated for a 3A max current. The first driver you have will give it 2.3A and the second one will drive it at 1.7A. Anything under 1A and you might as well run the cheaper XP-G's.


You are sharp. Thanks, why would they try to sell a 1.7A driver for a 3A led. Got to chat them up a bit. 2.3A may do for now I guess. I will shop around for driver tonight


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

JMO, but I would not use 10 w. There's no way to get a good spread. For a planted tank, the 3 w LED's would be, especially for a 75 gallon tank. You'd have to plan the planting such that the high light plants are under the LED's and then "fan" out the lighting requirements radially. I personally think it would be too much work to keep the CO2 and lighting all dialed in. Will this be suspended a ways up to get a better spread? If so, why not just go 3 w?


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Thank Gary, this is for my 75 SW softies . I will be using 36X 3W. This is just to add some more fun with 80deg lens. Given that they don't have a proper affordable driver yet, I may just hold off for now.

May need to call them tomorrow


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## gearsofwarfan (Jun 4, 2011)

modularled.ca has everything DIYers are going to need and they are in Red deer Alberta,pretty good company and with good customer service.


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## verkion (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm still a great advocated of building your own. I just built a 3x20W LED setup to replace a whole mess of lights in my 27G. Its actually TOO bright, (yeah that's a relative thing, I know). I have a 4x20W setup in my DIY 29G Biocube thread if you want to see how I did it. However, this time for my 27G, I just found some old P3 and P4 heatsinks and attached it to that. Not a "neat" setup since its in an enclosed wood canopy, but definitely works well. BTW, I got all my parts from Dealextreme = really inexpensive! PM me if you need some suggestions for parts etc.

Thanks!
verkion


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

here's a quick update,

I did a lot more research both here and on another forum. Combined with the fact that one of my T5 fixtures decided to bite the dust and with the other unit getting old....... I have made up my mind and jumped onto the led band-wagon. Keep in mind there where a few factors considered for my build (listed roughly in order of importance). 
a) I am limited in the amount of electricity I can use.... I don't want to overload the circuit as there are a few other items running on the same circuit.
b) ease of build.....I am not a huge fan of spending huge amount of hours on building a fixture.... trying to layout a tonne of 3w led's and configuring a bunch of drivers is not my idea of fun (but does have it's advantages if you go this route, you can dim certain colours, or zones, you also have better coverage).
c) cost.... this was supposed to be a $200 project.. um...errr.. that went out the window.. LOL... 

What I have found that as of right now, the Cree XM-L U2 led's are the most efficient. They put out 20-30% more light drawing the same amount of power as the 3w r6 chips. These chips draw between 3 - 3.3v and max out at 3A. They will put out just over 1000lm each.


Heat sinks (two 4.25 x 23"), optics, thermal paste . Considered making the heat sinks out of channel Aluminum. Problem with using standard channel aluminum is that it does not have enough mass. The heat is not able to travel down the aluminum strip fast enough to keep the led junction cool @ a full 3A. you can double up the thickness but this doubles the cost..... for a little bit more $$, I decided to go pre-made heatsinks. With a few DC fans this would give me room to expand later if I so decide. Optics.. I could not decide between bare bulbs, 80 deg or 60 deg's.. I ordered them all  I also took the chance to order an additional 8 blue led's for moon lights (hope it won't be too bright at 350mA). ~$200 rapid led.... excellent company if you have never dealt with them before.

Rapid LED did have the xl-m chips.. but they did not have the U2 version. Normally I would be more than happy to order the T6 chips from them, but for this build, I wanted to maximize efficiency... so I decided to look elsewhere for the U2 chips. I found 2 places, Cutter Electronics (which let's you buy by colour bin/output bin etc).. or through lightmallz. for $$ reasons, I went with lightmallz. ordered 16 chips.

Drivers. The XLM chips are more efficient in the 1.7A up to about 2.5A range. Past 2.5A they start to drop in efficiency and generate a fair amount of heat. You will see a gain in output up to about 3A (their rated max). With proper cooling people have tried to drive them up to 5A... anything past 3A tho you are not gaining much output.. just a lot more heat. At this point, I started looking at drivers offered by rapid led. VERY reasonably priced and since I was already ordering from them was a good choice.... doing some research on the net tho I ran into the meanwell HLG-185H-54b. This driver will drive 16 XLM's, and can be dimmed (either with 0-10v, pwm, or with just a pot). Perfect. Few extra XLM chips (16 up from the 12 I had originally planned) means I can run them in a more efficient amperage... Can be dimmed with a 100k ohm pot means I can save on building a dimming circuit ($50+). The bad news, only place I could find this was Jameco. Excellent prices.. horriable shipping to Canada. I mean.. the huge heatsinks where cheaper to ship than the single driver.... imagine that! (not to mention they are MUCH closer to me.. just on the other side of the border).

If all goes well, depending on optics used I should be able to get between 60 and 100 par @ the substrate with this setup at full output. As I want this to be a borderline low light tank / low-mid light tank, I will ideally be dialing down the led's to about 2 - 2.5A... right where there sweet spot is 

So far.. all the led parts have been ordered along with a few other misc items I figure I might need... total cost is approx $460... not including building the hood itself (I have not decided what i'm going to do there yet... considering a wood canopy with drawer sliders for the led assembly. Another couple weeks I expect before the parts starts arriving and the build starts 

For anybody that has made it this far into my post... thanks for reading.. I will keep everybody posted as the hood get's put together over the next month or two... I just realized.. this is not a QUICK update.. haha.


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## t-rex (Apr 26, 2012)

Rapid led has exceptional service. I bought my led equipment from them and made a setup for my 5 gal Kano. Couldn't be more happy. (Unless of was free)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997R using Tapatalk 2


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Nice detailed update. Can't wait to see the parts and the finished product. What are the dimensions of the tank this is going on? Your cube?


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

the setup is going on a standard 75 gal. 4ft x 18" x 22" high...... My cube has a 3ft t5ho setup on it now that i'm fairly happy with (and was cheap to purchase to boot).


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Doh...sorry, should have read your first post. Please post a before/after pic of the change in lighting. I just wanted to throw it out there in case you don't have any pics of the tank now.


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## trout (Mar 21, 2012)

this should be a very nice build! very well planned and thought out, looking forward to seeing it.

at full output you figured for 60-100 par at substrate, any idea what it would be dialed down to the 2A zone? Ive been playing with xml's as well, but have yet to use the driver I have so very interested in this.


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

it really depends on what optics you end up running. optics makes a HUGE difference.... If I get get away with 60 degrees optics and not make it look like a rock concert.... I should be close to 60 par @ approx 2A..... 80 deg optics will put me down to 30'ish..

Do a quick search for hoppy's par calculator. Hoppy over on planted did a spread-sheet where it will give you approx par numbers based on spread, led's used and output. He did an excellent job on putting together a calculator that will approximate the output of the led's. No, it is not perfect, but it gives you a good ballpark.


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