# its about the kids, bctf demands and costs



## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/documents/t...under-BCTF Proposals-Costing-June 16 2014.pdf


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

So the vast majority is going to class size and composition adjustments? Seems like a good thing to spend money on.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

Still does not change the fact that teachers in Canada and the USA are underpaid relative to other first world countries (especially compared to many parts of Europe which make the North American education system look like an utter joke).

Or the fact that they are under appreciated and not respected (Hell, teachers in China are treated far better).

And to top it off, why wouldn't you invest into the future? Teachers teach the next generation and they get paid less than the guy who fixes your toilet (no offense to plumbers :bigsmile


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

just making the facts available, i couldn't care less what happens, its all going to be charged to the debt anyways, the kids will pay it in the future


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

I appreciated the perspective this author shed light on:

The Cost of Class Size and Composition | Ashley D. Mackenzie


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

My daughter's kindergarten teacher has to work p/t as a waitress to make ends meet living in very expensive Metro Vancouver. 

Almost every good teacher I know and have communicated with spends over a thousand of their after-tax salaries to stock their classrooms with supplies that the schools will not pay for. If the kids want to do art, for instance, a lot of those supplies are paid for by their teacher (unless we want our kids to only draw and colour rather than work with clay or other arts & crafts). Many of the more interesting, educational projects are actually being subsidized by teachers. Ask Skabooya and the other educators who are BCA members. 

Look at it this way. Most parents struggle to keep up with one or two children of their own. Most would shoot themselves rather than have to deal with 25 to 30+ other people's children every day and try to get them to learn new things every hour of the school day. If they try to discipline a student who is acting up, the teacher risks losing their job. The government's neoliberal INCLUSION policy means that autistic, ADD and other special needs students are added into the regular classes and then the government cuts back on their Special Needs Assistants so teachers must now deal with 30 "regular" students and 2 to 4 Special Needs students. 

Yet the average teacher, especially younger ones, are barely making enough to cover expenses and have been WITHOUT A CONTRACT FOR 12 YEARS!!! 

People who don't really think about what a teachers' job is all about like to point out all the "vacation" time teachers get. Well, most workers go home after their shift is done and it is their free time. Most teachers go home and spend hours every night preparing the next day's lessons, preparing students for the useless Standardized Tests the government insists on, marking papers, checking homework assignments, and getting students' grades done for report cards. I know the teachers at my daughter's elementary school are very dedicated and really love the kids. Its the only reason we finally chose to send Felicia to this school instead of homeschooling her like we planned. Even though she is officially on strike, Felicia's teacher completed and then emailed a Year-End Video of her class to every parent so we could enjoy seeing what our kids had learned and done all year. It was awesome and a lot of work, but we totally appreciate it.

As a thank you, I have been making food and drinks for the striking teachers whenever we learn Felicia's teacher is on the picket line. We want to show the teachers we support them and appreciate them. 

Sorry for the long essay, but this is a topic that I take very personally and cannot have a "I don't care" attitude.

Seriously, this is about our children's futures so we all should CARE.

Anthony


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

did you look at the economics of it?


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

"i couldn't care less what happens"

It would appear you do...

Look at it this way, in Scandinavia and some other European countries teachers are paid at least over $100 000 a year. Class sizes are even smaller than what BC teachers are fighting tooth and nail for. Each class has an aid that helps with teaching and providing extra care to those who need it. Post secondary education is heavily subsidized if not free or a paid position. 

All of this...they must be in economic turmoil! Except their economy is more stable than ours or America's, all the while boasting the highest quality of living, literacy, equality and education rates in the world. Oh, and the low rates of debt and crime...(but thats a different story...). 

Personally, I am more worried about the economics behind how much government parties spend on their slander and election campaigns and why we have to pay for government officials to take their beloved ones on all expenses paid vacations (oops, business trips) in five star hotels...


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

scandanavia isn't quite a utopia, they have massive unfunded liabilities


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

So does Canada and the USA.

This is not an argument of economics. This is an argument about education. The same as how pipelines and oiltanker routes are about the environment. Do you think the losses in the long run are worth it for the economic gain now? To many of us, it does not add up. It is as simple as that.


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

you're right it certainly isnt an argument about economics


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Don't you love how politicians are so quick to vote themselves big raises and send all their kids to private schools so they don't have to worry about serving on a teachers' salary and their kids don't have to worry about class size???


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

ya politicians will do whatever they can get away with and still get elected, you cannot expect a squirrel not to climb a tree.


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## Algae Beater (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm fairly certain Christi Clark has made it her goal to break the BCTF. 

I love that all the money needed for the Olympics was dramatically found in time, as well as the nearly 600 million for bc place's new roof, the convention centre etc. 

In the case of the tri cities the evergreen line was on the books for decades and the five hundred million needed took forever to show up. Burke mountain was federal land for the longest time now under rapid development. Where's the province's money for all that? 

Back to the teachers, class composition is a huge issues. The number of autistic students has quintupled in the past ten years while at the same time special needs teachers and the like have decreased in number. It's a joke every single government official involved in this bargaining likely has their child in private school, then has the odacity to say public schools are fine. On a personal note I was a 'gifted' student doing accelerated math and science (grade 8 level in the 2nd grade) the challenge program was the first to be cancelled. Call me bitter, but this province has it's head up its @$$ when it comes to priorities. Eroding public services, taxes levies and tolls eroding the middle class at every turn and the push for development of un sustainable industry like nat gas.


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## architeuthis (Apr 22, 2010)

It's all bout the kids. :lol:
I agree they should do something about the class composition.
But,how does a $5000 signing bonus help the kids?


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## AccidentalAquarist (Sep 11, 2013)

architeuthis said:


> But,how does a $5000 signing bonus help the kids?


A signing bonus is most often used as the sugar to help swallow a bitter pill. To get a contract signed while there are still disagreeable terms within it.
To answer your question I would say it helps the kids by ending the strike and providing stability for the next few years.

Personally if it truly is just a bonus, I would call it reimbursement for monies spent on learning aids and for time spent at home planning and grading.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

The problem with many of these arguments by and from people "on the outside" is that TWO key issues are inextricably intertwined.

1. Teachers are fighting for improved education funding in order to better learning conditions in the classroom, because teachers' working conditions in the classroom = students' learning conditions. We share the same space and breathe the same air. These working/learning conditions include things like class size and class composition, more counsellors, librarians, learning resource and other specialist teachers per school with lower per-student ratios each, improved standards for health and safety, etc. Teachers are fighting to prevent the continued erosion of the public education system because they believe in public education, not merely because it is their bread and butter, but because it is for the greater public good of a healthy society and healthy future economy.

2. Teachers are fighting for better working terms, such as for example salary, benefits, retirement packages, and yes, a signing bonus (note: this was put on the table by the employer, not the BCTF, as an "incentive" right alongside the parallel "motivator" of implementing a partial lockout and reducing wages by 10% if all BCTF job action was not immediately ended). These are the kinds of things that are normally negociated in _any_ collective agreement during contract negociating times with _any_ employer and union (or even non-union job on a per-employee basis). Why is it morally wrong for teachers to ask to keep up economically with other teachers in the country, and/or with other professionals with commensurate education and experience in other fields? Why must "Will _somebody_ think of the _children?!_" be applicable only if it is won on the backs of teachers who cannot even provide for their own flesh and blood? Do you think that a teacher under stress and duress will be _better performing_ than a teacher who feels valued, appreciated, and appropriately compensted for all the all that s/he gives on behalf of the many children s/he strives to educate?

The thing is, the two above big-picture issues are impossible to separate because for decades, the teachers of British Columbia have bargained for the former, by paying for it with the latter. Class size and class composition limits were in the collective agreements of the past, until they were stripped out in 2002, as bargained rights. In exchange for these provisions being guaranteed in the collective agreements, teachers in those bargaining years forwent larger salary increases or improved benefits. What this means is that they paid for improved public education with their own future livelihoods. Now, those issues from #1 were stripped out of the collective agreements, and the issues from #2 are also being refused. They've removed the guarantees to BC's children that the teachers _paid for_, and they are _also_ refusing to properly compensate teachers for their continued hard work.

It is very easy to say "think of the economics of it" and "BC taxpayers simply cannot afford what the BCFT is asking for". However, there are problems with such reasoning. Firstly, public education is not a business nor should it ever be run as a business (the same goes for health care). Public education funding is not an investment for $profit. It is an investment for the future. What parent tells their kid "I've invested $XYZ into your university education and I expect a __% dollar return on my investment in __ years."? Better public education leads to lower crime rates, better employment and economic opportunities, lower health care costs (educated and aware citizens make better personal health choices), etc. As an added bonus, the effect is longer lasting that the immediate generation of kids: children whose parents value a good education will be brought up to also value a good education and will then instill these same values in their children. Secondly, what the BCTF is asking for (see the link I posted earlier) is actually a return of the funding that was cut since 2002. They're not demanding that $2B _more_ be added to the cost of public education, but that the $2B that was diverted from the public education pot be returned to it for the benefit of all involved -- that's all of us, by the way: parents, children, teachers, and even single young people who went to private school and don't have kids yet. We _all_ benefit from a well educated public! Here's why.

The cost of a good public education is more than the buildings and textbooks and technologies and tools to which the children have access. I challenge any one of you to _replace_ a classroom teacher with a set of the fanciest personal computing devices you can throw at a group of 30 kids. Heck, we've already done this in the past 12 years: the BC Ed Plan virtually sings in praise of technology in the classroom, of 1:1 technology goals and of 21st Century Learning. Thus, we've seen our libraries stripped of teacher librarians only to be replaced with iPad carts. Guess what kids do with iPads when there is no skilled teacher to guide their use and inform their thinking? The cost of a good public education has to include well trained, innovative and motivated teachers. This includes providing the technologies _and_ all the associated expertise such that it can be properly used in the most effective pedagogical way with students.

Did you know that in BC we lose more than 50% of new teachers within the first 5 years of their practice? They are unsupported, they do not get proper continued mentoring and relevant professional development, they burn out under the load of administrative, behavioural, academic and parental expectations put upon them, and they cannot afford to live on their current salaries. How many people will, out of one side of their mouth, generally praise teachers with words such as "You teachers are amazing, I could never do your job!" and with the other side of their mouths, push their own children towards other careers -- anything but teaching! -- which will have more lucrative prospects, more power, more financial succcess, more... whatever? It's amazing, in this region of relative economic prosperity and privilege, how often people like to say "You get what you pay for!" when bashing what they assume is poor teaching (ie, when their kid doesn't get straight A's) but so quickly forget the saying when considering the cost of teacher salaries and benefits. Do you think high quality teachers can afford to (and should be willing to) work for free?

But no. Teachers are asking for too much. They should appreciate the fact that they get 2 months off in the summer (How many non-teachers would cheer and praise the Lord for an enforced 2 months unpaid vacation, the dates of which are out of their control, I wonder?), be grateful for what little pay they _do_ get, and be thankful that they are praised by one or two parents each year for having spent an average of $1000 of their own money to fund learning materials for their classrooms so that their students have a more enriched and varied education experience than the public is willing to fund. After all, "it could be worse," right?

Just wait and see. It will be.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

AccidentalAquarist said:


> A signing bonus is most often used as the sugar to help swallow a bitter pill. To get a contract signed while there are still disagreeable terms within it.
> To answer your question I would say it helps the kids by ending the strike and providing stability for the next few years.
> 
> Personally if it truly is just a bonus, I would call it reimbursement for monies spent on learning aids and for time spent at home planning and grading.


Well said!

I highly doubt any signing bonus is going to motivate the teachers to swallow the bitter pill of another decade of cuts to the system, never mind to their salaries and the little they get in return for dedicating their lives to the betterment of other people's kids.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I am a bit concerned. I read that the union was running out of money so I am just wondering do teachers still get paid while going on a full strike? Thank you.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> I am a bit concerned. I read that the union was running out of money so I am just wondering do teachers still get paid while going on a full strike? Thank you.


Until recently, the norm was that teachers who picket get paid $50/day "strike pay" from the union. It's a token of appreciation or incentive to go out and picket.

What you read is correct. The BCFT has spent all of its money on the court cases and as of the end of last week is no longer giving strike pay to picketing members.


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## AccidentalAquarist (Sep 11, 2013)

pistachoo said:


> Until recently, the norm was that teachers who picket get paid $50/day "strike pay" from the union. It's a token of appreciation or incentive to go out and picket.
> 
> What you read is correct. The BCFT has spent all of its money on the court cases and as of the end of last week is no longer giving strike pay to picketing members.


Which is why I believe all the unions in the province should be helping out with donations to support our brothers and sisters on the lines. 
The whole purpose of a union is to promote community and ensure fair and equitable employment. What's the best way to promote community, if not through education?
Unfortunately I'm finding my local and many others that I've had interactions with are becoming as bureaucratic and bottom line oriented as big business, they'll talk the talk but.....


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Well said pistachoo.

I'm somewhat connected to the world of public education myself. I have family and friends that are teachers or administrators in the public education system. More and more what I'm hearing is along the lines of 'f**k this'. Quite a few very competent people are opting to take lower pay and less responsibility (or are considering doing so) because the resources they need to do their jobs are not there. In my area the local school board committed professional seppuku because they felt they couldn't fulfill their mandate with with funding they were given.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

Momobobo said:


> "i couldn't care less what happens"
> 
> Look at it this way, in Scandinavia and some other European countries teachers are paid at least over $100 000 a year. Class sizes are even smaller than what BC teachers are fighting tooth and nail for. Each class has an aid that helps with teaching and providing extra care to those who need it. Post secondary education is heavily subsidized if not free or a paid position.
> 
> All of this...they must be in economic turmoil! Except their economy is more stable than ours or America's, all the while boasting the highest quality of living, literacy, equality and education rates in the world. Oh, and the low rates of debt and crime...(but thats a different story...).


Where are you getting your facts from? According to the top google searches, teachers in sweden make the equivalent of $25,000-$30,000 per year which is less than BC teacher and their cost of living is also extremely high in Sweden. Perhaps you're seeing them get 100,000+ Kr which has a value around 1/6th of a USD? I've only looked at Sweden so I don't know about Finland/Denmark/Norway.


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## Clownloachlover (Apr 21, 2010)

this whole posturing is about union busting. The union is low on funds...the government knows this..drag it out, empty the union coffers and then stick it to the teachers with no choices left but to accept the contracts they are offered or be out of work for even longer. The problem is the kids are the pawns in all of this. The government would rather spend billions on over expensive transportation choices such as skytrain, when other countires look to ground level light rail cause it is affordable and sustainable. The government looks to hang its hat on LNG which other countries have been doing for years and have found it to be less than profitable. Christy Clark seems to believe that LNG is going to save the province from future issues, including education...somehow I doubt one dollar of profit made from anything LNG will ever be part of the education system. The teachers are underpaid, under valued and want the best for the kids, whereas the government could care a less...stuff them all in too small of a classroom, with little to know supplies, oh ya lets throw in some special needs children including autistic, mentally handicapped, ADD, ADHD and those gifted students with genius IQ and expect to give them all the same level of education...NOT going to happen...


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

And yet even without pay, we are still out there picketing. We continue to stand and fight for the fundamental right to an education. 
But, its all about the money right? LOL

PS Christy Clark was in my home town of Kitimat yesterday.  We, the Douglas Channel Watch and the citizens of Kitimat all gave her a good show all while respecting the Haisla who were purchasing their land back from the government that was theirs to begin with. It was a big day yesterday.

Check it out on FB here is the link to our photos from the KDTA (Kitimat District Teachers Association): https://www.facebook.com/kristinea....90918846763.1073741827.100005075708924&type=1

Also, google it. We had quite a few papers reporting on the event. Here is one about the Haisla: Kitimat Daily: Articles

Here is a link to our local online paper article: Kitimat Daily: Articles

Here is a great vid from the wonderful teachers of Vernon: Vernon Teachers - June 17 - YouTube


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

I had a big huge write up before this but there's too many points and what ifs ect. I will just say its sad that education isnt valued by our spendy gov. Or veterans or healthcare for that matter.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

Steve said:


> Where are you getting your facts from? According to the top google searches, teachers in sweden make the equivalent of $25,000-$30,000 per year which is less than BC teacher and their cost of living is also extremely high in Sweden. Perhaps you're seeing them get 100,000+ Kr which has a value around 1/6th of a USD? I've only looked at Sweden so I don't know about Finland/Denmark/Norway.


Hmm...interesting. I apologize for not using cited sources and spreading false information.

This paper gives a good look at the salaries of many European countries. I do not know how they compare to ours or the States however.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

Most seem to fall between $50k-$70k.

The rest of the info is true for at least a few countries. There are many differences between all the systems, thats for sure...(I met a fellow in SCUBA who was from Germany where he entered (and this is the norm) medical straight from highschool. Here, it usually requires 4 years of university...)


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

One thing to remember with eu contries is sure min wage is 3x here or a person makes a bunch more for similar work but they are taxed 2-3 times what we are although some places are ahead of us in other areas for that reason IMO.


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## jason (Jul 29, 2013)

I'm all for the tracers getting paid I dot think they get paid enough for what they do! But I fail to see how this helps the students right now well the teachers are all striking the kids aren't in school


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## AccidentalAquarist (Sep 11, 2013)

Clownloachlover said:


> this whole posturing is about union busting. The union is low on funds...the government knows this..drag it out, empty the union coffers and then stick it to the teachers with no choices left but to accept the contracts they are offered or be out of work for even longer. The problem is the kids are the pawns in all of this.


Absolutely F*ing right. 
The government has it figured out the kids are the pawns, do the teachers fold for the kids, or hold out? Unfortunately the spin doctors for the government aren't looking far enough into the future and how they are screwing our society.

If the teachers cave, then our children suffer today and tomorrow. If they don't cave then our children suffer today and for a generation to come while the teachers only suffer for decades.

Before people start booing that statement hear me out.

Kids are for the most part resilient and can quickly catch up, maybe losing a year before they are at par again. 
Teachers who hold out will likely have to use their savings and then credit to survive, those that have student loans will likely have to fold and move to other careers. Those that don't move on will have to work longer into their retirement years in order to repay the debts and hopefully accumulate enough money to retire. Leaving fewer opportunities for new teachers, which means less teachers in the long run.

My youngest kids are in K and Gr 2, so when they graduate in 10-12 years because of the this governments "education plan" the same teachers will likely be bored out of their tree and teaching what they know, which will likely be behind the times or completely obsolete (*absolutely no offense meant to the teachers*). Not to mention that many teachers will have been lost to other pursuits and others may have lost their desire to teach. So my children will suffer because of the so and so premier who didn't get elected, who have figured out that they can treat a segment of the population poorly and and ensure that the future generations is uneducated enough to re-elect them. But that will also affect our economy, our way of living, our future....

Either way the government has worked it that we are screwed for a long time but they get the power and the money short term.....how the F does that work in theirs or anyone else's benefit??



Clownloachlover said:


> .... The teachers are underpaid, under valued and want the best for the kids, whereas the government could care a less...stuff them all in too small of a classroom, with little to know supplies, oh ya lets throw in some special needs children including autistic, mentally handicapped, ADD, ADHD and those gifted students with genius IQ and expect to give them all the same level of education...NOT going to happen...


I have experience with this myself as a "International Baccalaureate" student. Alberta several years ago forced class size/composition to change. I hope it has changed for the better since. My so called gifted ability and the grants I earned did nothing in an overcrowded class. I ended up bored and so I tempted the law (and losing), now a HS drop out with a record. I can't even imagine how the students that needed help felt or ended up...Our teachers did the best they could but I imagine they had to pick and choose whom they helped.. where's the equality in that? And today here in BC the class size is larger and more dynamic?

I am 100% for democracy, freedom of choice. But damn it! there are times that I wished we lived in a socialist country that is focused on the future

forgive my rant, for I have high hopes that my kids will be socially/emotionally/financially capable of changing the world and my depends at the same time...all thanks to a teacher that prepared them for the real world


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

I heard on the news that a lot of teachers are now facing the choice between paying their bills or feeding their kids. Their last pay cheque was docked 30% and some are having to rework their mortgage or risk losing their homes. 

Might I suggest that no matter what side of the debate you are on, remember that these are the individuals who have dedicated their lives to educating our children and we need to do more than debate this online. If you can, swing by your local school and drop off some donuts & coffee or prepare a simple meal or snack for them. I think many are feeling a very down about the whole situation and I would not be at all surprised if a lot of teachers decide, if no contract or a lousy contract is accepted, to opt out of public education altogether and do something more "profitable". 

Felicia's K teacher and her fellow teachers will be getting some fried rice and a hot bowl of seafood soup tomorrow for lunch 

I encourage you all to consider showing your support in a tangible way. Actions not just words :bigsmile:

Have a good night everyone.

Anthony


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

jason said:


> I'm all for the tracers getting paid I dot think they get paid enough for what they do! But I fail to see how this helps the students right now well the teachers are all striking the kids aren't in school


Perhaps you should read previous posts and linked articles to better understand the actual situation...



SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> I heard on the news that a lot of teachers are now facing the choice between paying their bills or feeding their kids. Their last pay cheque was docked 30% and some are having to rework their mortgage or risk losing their homes.
> 
> I would not be at all surprised if a lot of teachers decide, if no contract or a lousy contract is accepted, to opt out of public education altogether and do something more "profitable".


You got it. Personally, I have a mortgage, and student debt after going back to complete my M.Ed. two years ago (Digital Learning & Curriculum, if anyone was curious!). Add to this the vagaries of life -- car problems and vet bills in Feb-Mar-Apr -- and the result is a rather austere "summer vacation" for me. My mortgage will be up for renewal soon, and I suspect I'll be no farther ahead compared to five years ago.

I read today that, where unions bargaining with companies may use job action as a means of exerting economic pressure on the employer due to loss of sales, such is not the case with a teachers' strike. The government continues to collect taxes regardless, it just doesn't spend them on education during a strike. The economic pressure is thus very much one-sided.



SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> Felicia's K teacher and her fellow teachers will be getting some fried rice and a hot bowl of seafood soup tomorrow for lunch


YUMM!


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

just curious for those who support the union; where is the line in cost you would draw? is there a line?
what would be the actual number that you would say no to?


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

None it's inevitable! We either pay now or pay big time later.


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## architeuthis (Apr 22, 2010)

SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> I heard on the news that a lot of teachers are now facing the choice between paying their bills or feeding their kids. Their last pay cheque was docked 30% and some are having to rework their mortgage or risk losing their homes.


After 6 days? I hope none of them are teaching finance or economics.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Whether you support or agree with the union and the strike, the teachers, in my opinion, are victims in this as well as the parents, and students. So, I feel that regardless of your stance, we should show them some respect.
I hope this get resolved soon.


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

yes but for those who support it where is the line where you say its too much?


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## opt-e (Jan 25, 2014)

SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> I heard on the news that a lot of teachers are now facing the choice between paying their bills or feeding their kids. Their last pay cheque was docked 30% and some are having to rework their mortgage or risk losing their homes.


I support teachers. My wife is a teacher and I am directly affected by all this. But I have to be honest here: I really feel no pity for the people in the situation where 6 days (or however many days it's been) of reduced income means you are in a position to risk losing your home. You shouldn't be putting yourself in that type of situation in the first place. Cut your spending/expenses, live in a cheaper home, etc.

A lot of teachers complain about the pay being too low. Maybe it's lower than some other specific places in the world but if you compare a teacher's annual salary to other industries and it really isn't that bad. This isn't even considering the fact that teachers only work 9 months out of the year.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

I am a teacher. I have a master's degree and am at the top of my salary scale, with 13 years of experience under my belt. However, I work 4 days a week (in a job-share) because it was either burn out and hate my job, or take a 20% pay cut and continue to be amazing for my 30 kids each year during the 4 days that I do work.

It is very easy to criticize others' finances, or to come off sounding like you are better off because you are smarter, and anyone with less financial wiggle room is obviously an idiot with money. However, it is not as easy as some make it sound to live in Vancouver on a teacher's salary -- especially if that salary is the only income for the household.

The financial ideal for anyone to consider themselves financially stable is to have a nest egg that could keep you going for 3 months in the event of a loss of income. I'd love to know how many Canadians can actually boast having achieved these kinds of savings.

New teachers graduate university with a 4 year Bachelor's degree plus a 12 month teaching program (B.Ed. in most cases, in BC). Assuming they even get hired immediately, they will spend anywhere from 3 to 12 years as EOC (Employee on Call = substitute teacher) before they can get a continuing contract. Once they have a continuing contract, they have to hope for 3-4 years without lay-offs if they want to stay where they are and acrue seniority and step up on the salary scale, or they get to start at the bottom again the follwing Septemer, _assuming_ they even get rehired after having received a pink slip if it's a lay-off year. I have a friend who's still looking to get hired even as an EOC and it's been 2 years since he graduated with his B.Ed.

Meanwhile, they have to make ends meet and work somehow, somewhere. What are the chances that these beginning teachers working odd jobs to supplement their irregular EOC work are going to be able to pay off student debt and add to their savings while also supplying to their daily needs like rent, food, gas and other usual costs for living in Vancouver? Do you think that by the time they get a continuing contract they'll be in a position to successfully weather 3 weeks of strike without pay?

As for the old trope of "only working 9 months a year"... don't even get me started. If the job was as chushy and easy as that, I wouldn't have needed to choose between balance and well-being, and working full time.

People love to compare teachers' salaries to "other jobs". I can't tell you how many garbage comments I have read these past few months about how teachers should be happy to have so much more money than the average bloke on minimum wage in BC. Such comparisons are unfair. A fair comparison would be to look at the salaries of other _professionals_ with an equivalent amount of post-secondary education. How many university-educated professionals with multiple degrees in their field of work do you know who have a salary ceiling of $80K, who won't reach that ceiling unless they have a Master's degree and have devoted 12 full time years into their career, after which time they can expect amazing bonuses like a Starbucks gift card from a few parents, and significant wage increases like "net zero"? One of my friends is an Engineer; he has his B.Eng. and about 5 years with his current company. His end-of-year bonus was likely about half my annual salary. ...why the hell did I become a teacher? :-/


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

I wasn't going to say it you basically did all the outlining " there's teaching and there's doing" also on the not being able to afford vancouver housing many people can't and you work in the city and commute out and finally I make less than a teacher as yourself at the cap with a masters (I have a cdl and drive a truck and work as a paver for a paving company) somewhere in the middle of a teachers payscale there's me and then there's guys that get hired at my work doing labour making way less then me and have post secondary education one was English major or journalism with degree and crap with other things making $16 and hour with job demands way beyond that of a day in a school sorry no offence but with their education they should be making more then the truck driver.

All my opinion of course. 

I have also just done six months of night school upgrading to augment my highschool transcript to qualify for a new trade union pre reqs while doing that I lived on savings with no ei like a normal winter layoff my view of wants and needs has been revouloutionized living on so little for months with nothing but now working again the same money seems like so much more just saying maybe teachers needed a bit of famine before crying if they are in famine already shouldn't run it so close to the bone


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

pistachoo said:


> People love to compare teachers' salaries to "other jobs". I can't tell you how many garbage comments I have read these past few months about how teachers should be happy to have so much more money than the average bloke on minimum wage in BC. Such comparisons are unfair. A fair comparison would be to look at the salaries of other _professionals_ with an equivalent amount of post-secondary education. How many university-educated professionals with multiple degrees in their field of work do you know who have a salary ceiling of $80K, who won't reach that ceiling unless they have a Master's degree and have devoted 12 full time years into their career, after which time they can expect amazing bonuses like a Starbucks gift card from a few parents, and significant wage increases like "net zero"? One of my friends is an Engineer; he has his B.Eng. and about 5 years with his current company. His end-of-year bonus was likely about half my annual salary. ...why the hell did I become a teacher? :-/


Thats a whole other world. How many university graduated folk make nuggets? Tons. Even scientists have it rough in many fields. I would be happy to make $80k a year with the Oceanography/Marine Bio degree I am working towards. And people graduating in the Arts? Have fun not working in your field of study. You should see the salaries of some profs (all of whom have Ph.Ds.) at UBC. If you are not a full time, you are making sub 50k. If you are a guest prof (especially in arts), sub 40k. Even the department heads make only slightly more than $100k, and these are people that have Ph.D.s (if not post docs) and have made significant grounds in their respective fields.

Engineers and Biochemists are completely different however. It is all about supply and demand and who is paying you. Engineers have the best job security but one of the most competitive and difficult programs. Biochemistry is easier...but they are in a field that is highly desirable to the people with money. I know a biochemist working in Alberta who makes $50 000...A MONTH, oil=$$$.

You do it because you love it. All the best teachers I have ever been taught by have forgone better jobs in their fields (a vet ($100k+), a computer software designer, etc)) to teach. Because they know whats important, and they want to make their mark. I hope one day I may be able to take up professoring, if not, maybe I'll become a teacher :bigsmile:


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

I just want to share what happened today on the lines (my shift at my school). It is cold and wet and windy and the chill got into my bones. My shift ended nearly an hour ago and I am still shivering. I can barely type; so cold! Anyway, we needed a pick me up and I pulled out a couple letters my students had written to me the last day we were together. I read them out to the teachers and support staff. It warmed us up a bit and gave us a needed boost to remind us what we are fighting for. I read them again during the shift change. 
One of my students, with his mom came by today as well for a visit. I received a big squeeze hug from my little monkey (I call them all my monkeys) and a hand made card and two cupcakes  
I miss my kids so much. I should be in my classroom with my monkeys but, instead we are all outside refusing to work anymore until a change for the better is made. Does anyone know how horrible it is to try and help a child who needs help and know that they will NEVER get the assistance they need to succeed. I have gone home and cried for my students more times than I can count. It is frustrating to any teacher. Our kids come from various backgrounds with various abilities. Some need more help than others. To turn around and say "no, we cant help you" is the worst thing ever. Watching a child, a person suffer knowing that they could be helped but the $ and resources needed is flat out refused; to me personally is akin to abuse. A child's fundamental right to an education is in jeopardy. Education is a right! The government needs to fund the schools better so the resources can be in place to help the children that need it. Enough is enough. We are tired of watching children suffer and not being able to do a darn thing about it. That is not why I became a teacher, that is not why any of us became teachers. We became teachers because we wanted to help others, to make a difference. Being able to be a part of a childs learning, watching them discover, grow and have those ah ha! moments is very fulfilling and rewarding to everyone involved. So, I and others including parents and support workers are saying ENOUGH! Our kids deserve what ever they need to succeed. Make it happen!!


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

Fold on the signing bonus then if its not about money and git'r'done but they won't.

Edit: $1200-5k big big difference and IMO a big signing bonus would help balance any loss from strike pay and that had nothing to do with educating kids the teachers signing bonus should just be a good contract for the job they "love".


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## rwong2k10 (Dec 27, 2010)

ok I suck at discussions and debates but I have a few comments.

First of all, of course teachers should get a raise, but I'd say just like any other work force only the exceptional ones and not the whole lot. Of course the other argument is there's no effective and efficient way of evaluating teachers. I, unfortunately from Grade 1 - Grade 12 had terrible teachers and I would fire them. My Kindergarten teacher rocked! My post university grad teachers were the best, those I would pay an arm and a leg for, oh and I did. (my university profs were terrible also)

The other argument is the $5000 signing bonus, 8%+ COLA, $3000 per year for massages, 100% mat leave top up and fertility treatment amongst other benefit and pension increases. I am all for smaller class sizes and better composition, but the $$ factor is still a big part of the argument and if they'd make that realistic, I would be all in favor to support the teachers.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter which government is in power, liberals, so-cred, NDP, and even when the NDP will win the next election, the union will always be in disagreement.

I do agree that parents and children are stuck in the middle of this disagreement, that's very unfortunate.


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## architeuthis (Apr 22, 2010)

$3000 per year for massages???
$5000 signing bonus??
8 percent over 5 years and they haven't had a raise since 2011.
I did a quick calculation today and found out that I am making 10% more than I did in 1991.
I've be working full time for the last 35 years (no pension) and today I hear that a teacher with 10 years on the job
makes a lot more than my wife and I do combined.
Yet our house is paid for, 2 cars and a truck are paid for.
We don't owe anybody any money.
And if I lost my job today I could easily go 6 months to a year without a pay check.
So forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for someone who makes what a teacher does and is having a tough go of it after 5 or 6 days.
It's all in where your priorities are and at what level you think your entitled to live your life.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

As always, the cynics focus on twisted numbers when the issue that's causing the stalemate is not, nor ever has been, wages and benefits. Meanwhile, the issue of class size and class composition continues to be largely ignored. Two things that teachers repeatedly gave up wages and benefits in order to guarantee caps on, to improve classroom working (teachers) and learning (students) conditions.

I am a lazy, entitled societal sponge. I chose my career based on complimentary massages and 5 hour work days. I am the scab on society's arse, itching to be removed and flushed away in the comeuppance I have long deserved. Why else would I continue to lie and exaggerate the imagined ills of my plum job? I sit back and take advantage of all that our quasi-socialist nation allows me to abuse while hard working men and women pay my undeserved salary with blood, sweat and tears. At last, our government is standing up for what is right and vowing to break the power hungry force that is the BCTF! It's time to put the likes of me back in our places: we are nothing but self-aggrandizing, glorified baby sitters who have nothing to show for ourselves aside from some university degrees worth less than the paper they were printed on. How dare we ask for better wages when others who do real work are paid less than we are, all under the paltry pretext of fighting for out students' needs? 

We ought to be ashamed of ourselves.


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

for arguments sake, say you felt the opposite and you were publicly speaking out against the union? what would happen?


skabooya said:


> I just want to share what happened today on the lines (my shift at my school). It is cold and wet and windy and the chill got into my bones. My shift ended nearly an hour ago and I am still shivering. I can barely type; so cold! Anyway, we needed a pick me up and I pulled out a couple letters my students had written to me the last day we were together. I read them out to the teachers and support staff. It warmed us up a bit and gave us a needed boost to remind us what we are fighting for. I read them again during the shift change.
> One of my students, with his mom came by today as well for a visit. I received a big squeeze hug from my little monkey (I call them all my monkeys) and a hand made card and two cupcakes
> I miss my kids so much. I should be in my classroom with my monkeys but, instead we are all outside refusing to work anymore until a change for the better is made. Does anyone know how horrible it is to try and help a child who needs help and know that they will NEVER get the assistance they need to succeed. I have gone home and cried for my students more times than I can count. It is frustrating to any teacher. Our kids come from various backgrounds with various abilities. Some need more help than others. To turn around and say "no, we cant help you" is the worst thing ever. Watching a child, a person suffer knowing that they could be helped but the $ and resources needed is flat out refused; to me personally is akin to abuse. A child's fundamental right to an education is in jeopardy. Education is a right! The government needs to fund the schools better so the resources can be in place to help the children that need it. Enough is enough. We are tired of watching children suffer and not being able to do a darn thing about it. That is not why I became a teacher, that is not why any of us became teachers. We became teachers because we wanted to help others, to make a difference. Being able to be a part of a childs learning, watching them discover, grow and have those ah ha! moments is very fulfilling and rewarding to everyone involved. So, I and others including parents and support workers are saying ENOUGH! Our kids deserve what ever they need to succeed. Make it happen!!


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

Oh wow! Really? where's the violin button, I mean dislike its always been about money ok! the kids are beard. I had one foot riding in each boat not being for or against either side but pistachio just woke me up for real......glad I was the last in my family to be subjected to teachers like that in public school union protected lazy j-offs, niece and nephew are in private and years ahead in ability and skills. My kids will be going the paid way too sad but best, you'd be fired as a teacher for their school for posting something like that, that there says the difference in teacher caliber and selection process. BAM done now stand out there and cry you voted for it or come work a real job haha ill get you down to 2-3 days a week joker job share pfffft im just about to start work now, it's too hard 9-3 five in a row try a real shift.


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## rwong2k10 (Dec 27, 2010)

well, pistachoo, I do agree and I wish that the class size and class composition should be the main focus.

But I know I know, some say you can't look at it from an economics point of view, and yes the government sucks etc etc

But I still think you need to, compared to the other unions that bargained and accepted their contracts, those items I pointed out aren't realistic (comparatively speaking
to other unions to other organizations)

The other argument is how are we going to pay for it, probably increase taxes then people will argue, complain, NDP comes into power next election and the same cycle happens again.

I took a few courses at BCIT a while ago and there was a instructors union strike, but for the few courses I took the instructors said they would go against the union and continue to teach and cross the picket line, they showed they care about the students and would go against the union.

The lazy teachers should be fired just like in any other job situation and not given mandatory raises, the good ones, heck I'd vote to double their pay.

vancitycam, there's some interesting point of view you've mentioned. At the end of the day, from what I've seen with the current curriculum, and if i can afford and get accepted it, I'm put my kids in private/independent schools for sure.

Another comment is, it doesn't matter the profession, salaried professionals are expected to work non paid overtime, spend their own time preparing materials and others.

If the union makes the class size and composition front and center and the other financial demands more realistic, I'd gladly stand beside the teachers on the picket line and support them.

Oh the signing bonus is for everyone in the union, even the ones that were laid off recently, is that really fair? I don't know, as you can tell, I'm not a big fan of unions in general.

oh another random but related comment: engineers (although most of the ones I know are damn stubborn) that's a great career path, no i'm not one, but the starting salary is great above a lot of other professions, growth is great


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

I wasn't going to post on this thread but due to what I over heard yesterday I'm just fed up with it all. Most teachers don't support this strike and only "show" support for it because they are part of the union. Both my wife and myself have talked to different teachers prior to and after the start of this strike and out of the 7 not one said they support the strike. It has nothing to do with the children, no one benefits from this strike besides the teachers.

I over heard a union rep telling some teachers in Burnaby yesterday the Union is willing to stay out until December and that it sounds as if the Ontario Teachers Union is going to start supporting the BC union with money so that teachers can get their strike pay.....

In all honesty, 90% of teachers don't deserve even remotely what they make. We may have a few on this board that are in that 10% but I've only met one of them so I can only say I think 1 based on her passion is truly committed to her job and her students are most likely are taught very well and enjoy being in her class.

Based on my own experience I can tell you in all my years of school I only had 4 teachers that made a difference in my life. 1 was in Elementary, 2 in high school and a third while I was doing my Journeyman training for Carpentry. Lets just say the teachers who were good, don't teach you the crap out of a text book. Most teachers were willing to turn a blind eye and give me a passing mark to do nothing at all. I had teachers tell me as long as I showed up for class and didn't disrupt them, I didn't have to do any of the work at all, they would give me a passing grade. Lets just say I barely graduated from high school, kicked out multiple times, but my education has not suffered on bit due to that. I learned at a young age I had to teach myself and school equivalent to a 4th year university graduate. ( Except in English.... and it seems to get worse and worse as the years go by! )

Now I work 45-60 hours a week for a company, I take maybe 1 week and a half weeks at most of vacation in the year, just to make the equivalent of a teacher with less training and time on job currently makes prior to the strike. The benefits are useless and to expensive so I cancelled them, I have no pension... and I could go on and on, the bottom line is I pay the bills, I support my family, its a job I love doing and most customers appreciate the final product and will see my work and enjoy it for decades.

People compare teachers wages in other countries to justify the teachers needing a increase here... right =) My father in law was a math teacher in China, he is a cook here because of his English. Classes sizes there can be upwards of 40-50 children, teachers have to go through a lot more training prior to being certified sometimes by a couple years. As far as I know, and I don't have the numbers nor the will to go find them teachers in China make just barely over their income required to live. I will tell you this though, my father in law taught me more math in 2 hours then I learned in all my years at school here. The book he brought out for me to show me how to do certain math was stuff that I had never even seen done through my Grade 11 math and I was pretty good at math. I believe he told me what he was showing me was taught to children in China that was equivalent to our children in grade 6.

Unions are great when they fight for the workers who deserve the rights, unfortunately that is only a handful of workers and most don't deserve remotely close to what the ones that do deserve.


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## rwong2k10 (Dec 27, 2010)

I guess my question is how can we effectively and evaluate teachers and fire the useless ones and give the ones that deserve a raise a raise (like in any other business, yes I know the counter argument, you can't run schools like a business)

Any suggestions?


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## davefrombc (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't think "useless" teachers would last very long in the classroom. Those that complain about the salaries of teachers and think they have it so soft should try getting the education and certificates/ degrees required to teach . Oh, and take courses regularly if you want to upgrade to teaching older grades for better pay. Remember , your day teaching doesn't end with the final bell at the school.. Someone has to check and grade homework and exams, as well as prepare for the next days lessons. Compare their salaries to your pay for doing a job that takes a lot less education to do, and most jobs don't take a lot of upgrading expense and class time to advance in ..... and for many of us , remember also.... Those teachers have to teach kids that act like you  and your friends did in class; and put up with the occasional parents that think their little darlings can do no wrong ... Nope , I'm not a teacher , but have known some, and they deserve wages commensurate with the time they must spend getting the necessary degrees , upgrading their skills, and the time they spend on their students in and out of the classroom. I'll wager there isn't a third of the members of this forum who could hack being a teacher. I know I couldn't. Teachers deserve a lot better pay than a lot of the legislators and MP's we have. I won't get into the fees charged by lawyers, dentists and veterinarians who don't spend much more time getting their degrees than the teachers of the higher grades... Think about it before you claim teachers are so overpaid for what they do and the numbers of students they have in their classrooms.

You might also consider , a tradesman can easily make 80K/ year if he or she is willing to work out of town and put in long hours. Many can make that and more without working out too.. A good Real Estate agent can make considerably more with relatively little formal education. Some in sales can too. If you look at all the factors , teachers can make a pretty good case for a lot better pay for the time and responsibilities they shoulder trying to teach your kids , compared to the efforts most put into their jobs, and the responsibilities they shoulder.


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## architeuthis (Apr 22, 2010)

pistachoo said:


> As always, the cynics focus on twisted numbers


How are they twisted? It's all out there for anyone to look up if they want to.
I agree that something should be done about classroom composition.
It obviously doesn't benefit any ones education the way it is run now.
But when your main war cry is " it's all about the kids" you tend to look pretty stupid if you ask for 
unrealistic wage and benefits for yourself as well.

If the teachers want to be mad at someone they should be looking at their own union leaders.
Look up the wages and benefits these guys get.
How come when the union leaders call for a strike they are the only ones who continue to get paid.
If your a union representative and your union is on strike your on strike.
And if none of your members is getting paid then you shouldn't be getting paid either until you work things out.
There is no incentive for the leaders to work things out because they are still getting paid.
I thought the union way was all for one and one for all.
I guess it's like Animal Farm. Everyone is equal, but, some are more equal than others.


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## AccidentalAquarist (Sep 11, 2013)

As far as paying staff more for better performance that's one thing that will never happen in an unionized workplace where equality is preached as a core goal. 

But getting rid of unproductive employees is a lot easier than the propaganda makes it out to be. 
I was in management for about 15 years before a lifestyle change and I took my current unionized position. In that time I spent more time trying to work with the union than trying to work around them.
ALL collective agreements have clauses for discipline. If the steps agreed upon are used properly, removing the bad apples is a simple process. The problem stems from lazy or poorly trained managers, not taking the time to follow those steps to the letter.

I actually believe that in today's society there should be no need for unions as they have become bloated and cumbersome entities. The original intent was valiant, protecting employees from dangerous work environments and bad management. Without them we would still be using child labour and working 100 hour weeks for little more than a loaf of bread. But bad management still prevails, so unions have to exist.


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## ddcool (Jul 31, 2012)

just out of curiosity what would the average hourly pay be for teachers based on hours worked? I would consider that to be the hours required to be at work.


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## rwong2k10 (Dec 27, 2010)

interesting point of view, let's keep up with this interesting discussion

I don't think getting a teacher's certification, degree is different than any other profession.

in my profession, I had to get a degree, a post grad certification, I need to pay a stupid huge amount of professional fees yearly, I need to be continue to update and upgrade myself through professional courses, practicum hours, certification and testing and no my day doesn't end at 5pm, there's still a lot of prep work to be done before the next day at work. So, I personally believe that's normal for any professional, so I don't think that's a valid argument point.

and yes I can personally bet that if I were a teacher, I'd do a better job of teaching than any of the teachers I've had in elementary, jr high and high school. (in my experience, oh well but I can be wrong as usual), but instead of becoming a teach I choose a different path, hopefully, I can teach at a university on day before I retire or a night course. (then again, I might probably suck at it)


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

It seems as though some don't know how negotiating/bargaining works. The employer and employee both put out their wish lists. Those lists are then negotiated towards a middle ground. Both sides need to compromise. The issue currently is that the employer does not even want to talk about working conditions (classroom size and composition). The only thing they want to discuss are wages and benefits. So, obviously that is what is posted to the media, not the fact the employer has said no to 2/3 of the discussions. (classroom size and composition/working conditions and being able to bargain at the local level).
All that is put on the table is negotiable towards finding a middle ground. 
What is making teachers, support staff and many members of society angry is the fact that the employer is wasting $ towards twisting information. Just last night someone against teachers posted the individual names and salaries of individual teachers. However, the document typically lists ALL employees in the district. The document was changed by the employer (we suspect) to only list employees making over $75,000 a year (people with multiple degrees and 20-30 years experience). That included administrators, and other higher ups. Those #'s also included the benefit totals (that information was miraculously hidden) and the total numbers posted were gross before taxes. Again that information about the what the totals actually were was hidden. My name and many of my colleagues names were not on the list because we made much much less. This is very much a smear campaign.

You want to know what I make? I have 8 years in right now, but only 4 are considered full time because I was a TOC for years. I started with less than $10,000 a year and now I am making about $45,000 gross. When I accumulate enough hours to equal 10 years of full time work I will make a maximum of $60,000 maybe. Again this is a gross number. With a Masters Degree (which I want) my pay "could" get as high as $80,000 gross after 10 years full time work but, that is it unless I become admin or department head or something along those lines. Depending on where you live, cost of living can actually be killer. Where I live, the average rent has shot up to $2000 a month and nothing less than $1500 per month. I pay a mortgage and almost that amount (nearly $400 a week to pay more towards my premium). I also have my bills (hydro, phone, satellite basic package, etc) Don't forget cost of food for family, etc. This is not different from any other person. Everyone has to pay these amounts. Just like for everyone, it is getting harder and harder to pay the bills. 

I know of one teacher currently living in a borrowed camper on a dirt road because her pay can not cover housing. She needs to choose between food or shelter. Someone was nice enough to let her live in their camper. Another teacher I know of and work with will be leaving this summer. Her landlord was nice enough to give her a break. The 10% pay cut meant not being able to pay for the entire total of her rent. Now that we are on strike and the 10% cut still continues, there is no way she can stay where she is. She has worked a deal with the landlord (who is very understanding to the situation) so that she can leave to find another job and pay back what is owed once she can find another job somewhere and a new place to live.

Now, comparable with others in CANADA (not other countries) we are paid 2nd to last and live in one of the highest cost of living provinces. Teachers have taken net 0, that means NO COST OF LIVING, NO RAISE, NO extra pay for a few years now to secure classroom size and composition because it is so important to us. Guess what happened. A few short months after the deal was reached the employer stripped the collective agreement which was classroom size and composition. They did so ILLEGALLY and it was found to be illegal TWICE! We want it back. The courts said to restore them as well, TWICE! The employer does not even want to discuss it. They are ignoring the entire issue. That is wrong and against anyone's rights. Everyone should be able to discuss and negotiate their working conditions.

We no longer trust the employer and for good reason. Now they are saying that after the court date in October, if either party does not like the outcome, the collective agreement can be torn up and started over from scratch. Do you know what that means!!! 
It reminds me of a kid playing a game. If they are not winning they throw all the pieces off the board and you are forced to start all over again, wasting more time and tax payer money. As a tax payer this infuriates me. As a teacher, this both infuriates me and scares me. They do not care. They just want to win at any cost.

It can all be afforded. The money as been shown to be there, go look it up on various sites. It is all a matter of priorities. 

As for a comment above asking me something like if I was against the union or looking at it from the other side, what would I say then. Well, I can tell you this, I am also a mom. My son is going to school soon, and then my daughter a couple years later. I am currently having internal conflict to which school to put them in. It is my personal choice and I am considering my philosophies and comparing them to the two schools I am considering. Anyway, as a PARENT and not thinking about teaching what I would want is for my kids to get the help they need should they need it. I want them to learn in an excellent learning environment. I want the best for my kids. I want my child's teacher to spend time with my child to make sure they are learning and not falling behind. I want the teacher to develop a trusting relationship with my child. I want the school to be inclusive of all learners so my children know that not all are created equal, and it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round. I want my children to learn empathy and tolerance towards others, not seclusion of those that are "different". I want them to learn to stand up for what is right and not dismiss others because of different abilities or attitudes or backgrounds. I want them to bring home those cute little fluffy, froo froo art projects and colourful writing activities for me to store and keep and then bring out to show them when they turn 40  These things are achieved from public schools, not cherry picked private school kids. No offense to them, but that is how a private school works. They can pick and choose who they want in their school. Everything else is pretty much the same. They do all the cute stuff with the kids same as the public schools. They get a good education as they are held to the same standards. The difference is students are "selected" and beliefs may be different ex religious schools, prep schools, academy, boarding school, etc . I worked in one for some time before moving to the public school system.
So, as a parent, I would choose to side with the BCTF because I want the best for my kids. I want my kids to have good teachers that can take care of themselves.

I mean really, would you want a stressed out teacher who is concentrating on how to pay his/her bills, make food for his/her family, and think about other personal issues during teaching hours OR would you rather have a dedicated teacher who does not worry about such things because they are funded properly. A teacher who can focus on the job AT the job site and provide the best they can for their students. Really either way, teachers pay out of pocket for things for their classroom. That will not change, it needs to be done if the students are to have nice things, even mediocre things (glue sticks, pencils, erasers, sharpener; because they used them all up or they are broken and the school does not supply the class with any). 

I know what kind of teacher I want for my kids. I want a teacher who is relaxed, experienced, educated and ready to work with my child. So, I would support the BCTF. No contest there.

Remember they are in the bargaining process to find middle ground. It is the employer who is refusing to discuss 2/3 of the proposal and has actually moved backwards in their offer when the BCTF got closer to them. That is called bargaining in bad faith.

A mediator was requested by the BCTF because they recognized everything went stale. The government after 28 hours ? said okay but only if the decisions made with the mediator were non binding. WTF!? So, we get a mediator to help bridge the gap and they still don't want to settle? Once again, bad faith.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

ddcool said:


> just out of curiosity what would the average hourly pay be for teachers based on hours worked? I would consider that to be the hours required to be at work.


If you figure the Teacher works 200 days in a school year ( and that is not removing Christmas, March Break or any other holidays/non-instructional days and so on ) and figure if the time they are required to work is a 6 hour day ( really 5 hours or less but... hey they get paid for a full 30minute to hour lunch and usually 2 15minute breaks ). Below breakdown doesn't include benefits or anything else just a salary figure. Since only figure anyone really ever says is 80k for a experienced teacher I will start at 40k and work up to 80k and numbers are rough and rounded down to not make them look worse =)

Paid 40k makes $33/hour
Paid 50k makes $41/hour
Paid 60k makes $50/hour
Paid 70k makes $58/hour
Paid 80k makes $66/hour

Sorry, I miss counted, it is 210 days without removing above mentioned, but still figures work if you just remove Spring Break from my "not removing" list.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

Just an article to add :

Parents – the provincial government is counting on you turning on the teachers. Do they have you right?
June 18, 2014 at 4:42pm

Check this out. Does it sound like a conspiracy theory? 


The BC government is faking it. They do not want to reach an agreement with teachers. Over many years they have deliberately pushed teachers and their union into a corner. Their goal is to get the BCTF to go on strike, inconveniencing and angering parents, so teachers lose public support. Then the government will look reasonable when they slash and burn their contract and fail to fund smaller class sizes.


Conspiracy theory?


Actually, it’s the finding (not verbatim) of a BC Supreme Court judge. Not once, but twice.


For this strategy to work, the government is counting on you, parents. 


They’re counting on you to say things like: 

“I don’t want to take sides.”

“Both of them need to compromise.”

“Parents and kids are stuck in the middle here.”

“A pox on both your houses.”


Then, as the dispute continues and special events are cancelled, exams aren't marked and students are hurt, they're counting on you to turn on the teachers. They expect you to start saying:

"Enough is enough."

“I don’t care what the problem is, just end it.”

"If the teachers cared about kids they wouldn't be doing this."


They are banking that parents will ignore a 12-year history where the government broke the law on employment contracts.


And they think you won’t notice that although a lot has improved in classrooms, the resources we had in school – school librarians, speech therapy, learning assistance – are not available to our kids. 


Are we that easily led?


Because blaming BC’s school lockout/strike on “both sides” is like blaming a victim of bullying for standing up for themselves.


As parents we know the years of underfunding, school closures, teachers laid off, and EA and resource positions gone. 


We watch our kids' teachers dealing with large classes, with not enough resources. We’ve seen how much money our kids’ teachers spend out of their own pocket for classroom supplies.


We know what it looks like when custodians are cut back and there aren’t enough hours to clean schools, or take care of the grounds.


What we may not all know is that BC’s teachers are among the lowest paid in Canada. And after years speaking out for smaller class sizes, more support for special needs and more specialist teachers, they are under attack.


Together, we’re the people most invested in public education – parents and families, students, and the teachers and staff who provide the service. We’re the ones who need to work together to improve it. 


The provincial government is counting on dividing us from teachers. Do they have us right?


It’s time to pick a side. For public education, and the people who provide it.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

and another:


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Could you please explain how the union plan on reducing class room size?
And if the government loses the appeal will the class sizes be reduced anyway regardless of whether there is a strike or not?
I read in an article that the union is also asking for 500 million dollars as some kind of payment for this classroom size and compostion issue but I do not see this being mentioned too often. Have they retracted the demand of 500 million or did I misunderstand what I read that it was never on the table?
Thank you.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

For what it's worth, when the 'partial lock out' was put into effect, the information we were given from the employer included the following: 
_For employment insurance purposes, the accepted length of a teacher's workday is 9.1 hours, of which approximately 5 hours is instructional time. _

Any teacher in BC will tell you (with plenty of examples if you are really interested) that 9.1 hours per day on average doesn't even come close to the time we spend on work-related activities. Planning and marking take up the bulk of our non-instructional time (for a class of 30 grade 5/6 kids, it takes me 2 hours at least to mark a math _quiz_, if I spend no more than 4 mins per quiz and take no break until I am done. Now imagine marking writing assignments, math _tests_, science projects, etc.) but aside from these, we also have to spend time on various committees, meeting with administration, with colleagues, and with parents, as well as with students who may need extra individual time with us outside of class time. Add to this any extra-curricular activities we may choose to sponsor or coach, as well as tens of hours spent planning special activities like 3 day outdoor school/camp outings, 8-10 day trips to Québec (during which we are "on" 24/7 in case of emergencies), bike camp trips (Juan de Fuca trail, Galliano & other gulf islands, are two we've done in the past), organizing or participating in district programs such as big track meets, Strings concerts involving all 15 schools in the strings music program, ... This is why it is so difficult to answer the deceptively simple question "How much does a teacher make per hour?"

Information that some may find interesting: (short reads)
Informaion forparents, guardians, and everyone whocares about Public Educaion in BC

Teacher salary demands v. other public sector unions


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Could you please explain how the union plan on reducing class room size?
> And if the government loses the appeal will the class sizes be reduced anyway regardless of whether there is a strike or not?
> I read in an article that the union is also asking for 500 million dollars as some kind of payment for this classroom size and compostion issue but I do not see this being mentioned too often. Have they retracted the demand of 500 million or did I misunderstand what I read that it was never on the table?
> Thank you.


Reducing class size limits = hiring more teachers. If you have a school with 280 intermediate kids and you put 35 kids per class, you only need 8 full time teachers. At 28 kids per class, you have to have 10 teachers. Class composition refers to kids with special needs having their needs met by hiring enough specialist teachers (learning assistance/resource teachers, for instance). Multiply that by how many schools there are with intermediate and high school kids and the cost ads up. However, this is not "new" money being demanded, but the return of previous services that were stripped from the system 12 years ago.

I do not know about the 500 million you refer to, it's been too mentally exhausting to keep up with all the arguing and rhetoric.


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## davefrombc (Apr 21, 2010)

kacairns said:


> If you figure the Teacher works 200 days in a school year ( and that is not removing Christmas, March Break or any other holidays/non-instructional days and so on ) and figure if the time they are required to work is a 6 hour day ( really 5 hours or less but... hey they get paid for a full 30minute to hour lunch and usually 2 15minute breaks ). Below breakdown doesn't include benefits or anything else just a salary figure. Since only figure anyone really ever says is 80k for a experienced teacher I will start at 40k and work up to 80k and numbers are rough and rounded down to not make them look worse =)
> 
> Paid 40k makes $33/hour
> Paid 50k makes $41/hour
> ...


You need to do some recalculation. 6 hours a day is what is spent in the classroom with the students.. The total time is considerably more when you count in prep time and reviewing and grading homework assignments. If teachers worked by your calculations, they would merely be babysitting the kids for 6 hours .. Forget about doing any instructing .. They hadn't been given any time to prepare or follow up on any actual teaching.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

pistachoo said:


> Reducing class size limits = hiring more teachers. If you have a school with 280 intermediate kids and you put 35 kids per class, you only need 8 full time teachers. At 28 kids per class, you have to have 10 teachers. Class composition refers to kids with special needs having their needs met by hiring enough specialist teachers (learning assistance/resource teachers, for instance). Multiply that by how many schools there are with intermediate and high school kids and the cost ads up. However, this is not "new" money being demanded, but the return of previous services that were stripped from the system 12 years ago.
> 
> I do not know about the 500 million you refer to, it's been too mentally exhausting to keep up with all the arguing and rhetoric.


Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I appreciate it. I hope this issue is resolved soon because I see the teachers as being victims in this whole strike as well.

So, if I understand correctly the union is asking the employer to hire more teachers (both regular and special needs) so there will be more classes?

You did not answer the second part of my qestion though. If the appeal is overturned (it is supposed to happen in Oct isn't it) then what shall we expect? Will class size and compostion (or number of teachers to be hired) be restored at that point whether this strike that is happening now occurs or not?

About the 500 millions, I was referring to an article I read which stated that the union is proposing a close to $500 million split between annual "workload" and "retroactive grievances" funds to help offset class sizes, working conditions and health benefits.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

davefrombc said:


> You need to do some recalculation. 6 hours a day is what is spent in the classroom with the students.. The total time is considerably more when you count in prep time and reviewing and grading homework assignments. If teachers worked by your calculations, they would merely be babysitting the kids for 6 hours .. Forget about doing any instructing .. They hadn't been given any time to prepare or follow up on any actual teaching.


If you look at the original question, my calculations are right. Also no 6 hours a day isn't spent in the class room. The only place I ever seen a teacher spend their lunch time and breaks in the class room was at BCIT. As per pistachoo post "instructional" time is approximately 5 hours. Not to mention that teachers also don't have their students all the time as well during that day. My son for example has music class multiple times a week, PE multiple times a week and library time which are all done by other teachers while his own teacher is given time to go through student work.

If you take pistachoo's 9.1 hour work days and don't count in non-instructional days, christmas break, holidays and so on ( I have taken off the 2 weeks for March Break just to simplify ) and once again only base salary not including benefits and so on...

40k = $22/hour (rounded up by $0.02 /hour)
50k = $27/hour
60k = $33/hour (rounded up by $0.03 /hour)
70k = $38/hour
80k = $44/hour (rounded up by $0.05 /hour)


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

Agreed it is difficult to keep up with all that is being posted and then digging through it all to find the truth as different media outlets are posting conflicting information. Its exhausting. As for what happens after the court case, that's up to the judge and the ruling. We need to follow the ruling (unless you are Christy Clark because she ignored them twice). However, rumour is that if the govt loses then they will appeal again to the Supreme Court of Canada which will tie us up for a few more years wasting even more money. The decision made there will affect the whole of Canada and teaching regulations.
It is all frustrating and there are so many variables. As for the $ we were told in one of our e-mails I believe. I would have to fish it out but, some of the media is giving different figures and some are posting misleading or completely incorrect information. It must be very confusing and frustrating for parents. As a teacher, its making us angry. If facts were stated, and truth was told, then there wouldn't be a huge issue.
What should have been a simple linear process has bloated to become an irregular backwards negotiating battle in which BCTF has followed the rules and the govt has been playing dirty. Its really annoying.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

Okay, I will just go with your first and last $ amount.
40K=$22 (rounded up) divide by 30 kids in a class = $1.36 per student. x5hours (as per your hour calculation) = $6.80 per day
80K=$44 (rounded up) divide by 30 kids in a class= $1.47 (rounded up .1) per student x 5 hours = $7.35 per day

I used a calculator  lol

Taking my kids to playgroup costs $2 for the hour per child. LOL
Tutoring is about $20 per student per hour

government is saving a lot of money by squishing your kids into a class with only one teacher and no aide.

PS I said 30 as that is the average here. Some have more some have less depending on enrollment.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

skabooya said:


> Okay, I will just go with your first and last $ amount.
> 40K=$22 (rounded up) divide by 30 kids in a class = $1.36 per student. x5hours (as per your hour calculation) = $6.80 per day
> 80K=$44 (rounded up) divide by 30 kids in a class= $1.47 (rounded up .1) per student x 5 hours = $7.35 per day
> 
> ...


Hope you aren't teaching math!


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Hrmmm what is quoted in my post and what is showing as your last post are 2 completely different things!



> Okay, I will just go with your first and last $ amount.
> 40K=$22 (rounded up) divide by 30 kids in a class = $1.36 per student.
> 80K=$44 (rounded up) divide by 30 kids in a class= $1.47 (rounded up .1) per student.
> 
> ...


My above comment based off that!


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Oh and comparing tutoring to teaching a class of 30 students... apples and oranges.

I've paid for a 1 on 1 tutor as well as 3 children to 1 tutor for my son. Tutors are specialized and direct. They don't stand up in front of a class say 1 thing one time and then help those who need help. They focus on the individual in great depth. Teachers can't do this in a class of 25 students, or even 10 students or even 5 Students.

My son's whole grade 1 the teacher just kept telling us "he is slow in learning and lagging behind the class". You know what the problem was that the teacher couldn't identify. He is shy and doesn't like to participate in large groups. If a teacher can't recognize something as simple as that they are just a material reader not a teacher. The teacher actually thought she was responsible for his huge turn around. He want from reading below a grade 1 level halfway through the year to reading at a grade 2 level in 1 month all thanks to a tutor and great thing was, for that $20 a hour, they came to our house and didn't go on strike!


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## architeuthis (Apr 22, 2010)

So if you include the time you spend at night marking and doing other class room related work as part of your work day, then can I count my 2 hour commute each day as part of my work day?
If so then I'm making even less than I thought I was. And I thought I was doing pretty good.

"For employment insurance purposes, the accepted length of a teacher’s workday is 9.1 hours, of which approximately 5 hours is instructional time."
If you work an 8 hour day what do you do for the other 3 hours a day. I would think that would be used to mark work and prepare the class.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

kacairns said:


> If you look at the original question, my calculations are right. Also no 6 hours a day isn't spent in the class room. The only place I ever seen a teacher spend their lunch time and breaks in the class room was at BCIT. As per pistachoo post "instructional" time is approximately 5 hours. Not to mention that teachers also don't have their students all the time as well during that day. My son for example has music class multiple times a week, PE multiple times a week and library time which are all done by other while his own teacher is given time to go through student work.


This is incorrect.

In elementary public schools in B.C., teachers get 90 minutes of prep per week, where their students go to another teacher for P.E. _or_ music _or_ library. (Prep subjects vary from school to school, it largely depends on the prep teacher's strengths.)

Since I work 4 days a week, I get 80% of a full time teacher's prep, so my students have 30 mins of time with the P.E. teacher on Tuesdays, and 45 mins on Thursdays.

My teaching partner gets the other 20% of prep time, when the class goes to the library for book exchange (20 mins). We are both lucky they rounded up. Normally the 80/20 breakdown of 90 mins would be 72 + 18. We get 75 + 20, which is just enough to include a quick pee break on our way to the photocopier.

Also, fwiw, excepting the last two weeks when I was eating on the curb, most of my lunches are spent in my classroom.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

Yup you are right, I am not a math teacher. I am horrible at math. I steer clear from it when I can. But when I do have to teach it I practice my arse off until I understand it. What I did above was quick and with a calculator. I also did it to further the point of how much each student costs the government. When you said I did it wrong I went back to check without a calculator. You are right nothing was adding up. I checked my calculator by putting in the good ol' 2+2=. I did not get 4 HAHAHA. Okay so calculator is gone. Here are my pencil and paper calculations. This time it should be correct. LOL this makes me laugh at the boo boo.

40k =22/hr according to you. divide by 30 kids = 0.73/student x 5hours = $3.65 per student per day.
It works out backwards too. 3.65/5=0.73x30=21.9 (you rounded up to 22)

80k=44/hr \30=1.47/student x5 = $7.35
7.35\5=1.47x30=44.1 (rounded down by you)



And yes apples to oranges. I was a tutor, giving extra teaching to kids when I was early in my program. The cost through our district was about $20 per hour per student. When I needed a tutor it was $20 per hour.

As for a teacher not being able to go in depth with students learning; I am sorry you had a bad experience but, speaking for myself I pull kids aside to make sure they are learning what they are supposed to. If they are not, I work closely with them. I hold them in during lunch or recess, sometimes after school with parent permission. I will get rid of the "fluff" so that child focus more on what they need. So saying that a teacher is not able to, is a fallacy.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I appreciate it. I hope this issue is resolved soon because I see the teachers as being victims in this whole strike as well.
> 
> So, if I understand correctly the union is asking the employer to hire more teachers (both regular and special needs) so there will be more classes?


You're welcome! Yes, the key issue of class size and composition would require hiring more of both generalist and specialist teachers. This would ensure that classroom teachers would have a manageable number of students whose needs they can better meet, with the support of specialist teachers (teacher-librarians, teacher-counselors, resource teachers, music teachers, speech language pathologists, district psychologists, etc.)



Fish rookie said:


> You did not answer the second part of my qestion though. If the appeal is overturned (it is supposed to happen in Oct isn't it) then what shall we expect? Will class size and compostion (or number of teachers to be hired) be restored at that point whether this strike that is happening now occurs or not?
> 
> About the 500 millions, I was referring to an article I read which stated that the union is proposing a close to $500 million split between annual "workload" and "retroactive grievances" funds to help offset class sizes, working conditions and health benefits.


I'm sorry I missed your second question. I don't know what will happen in October.

B.C. Supreme Court Justice Susan Griffin "ruled that the British Columbia government was so hung up on provoking its public school teachers into strike action that it failed to negotiate in good faith, costing the province $2 million in damages. In a 12-year battle over legislation that eliminated teachers' rights to bargain on issues such as class size and composition, a B.C. Supreme Court judge has concluded - for the second time - that the law is unconstitutional." -- Source; this article has all the details of the actual rulings.

In a nutshell, the B.C. Supreme Court found that the government's stripping of class size and composition limits from the collective agreement was illegal and unconstitutional. Judge Griffin's ruling included ordering the government to pay $2 mil in damages to the BCTF and to retroactively restore the stripped language back into the collective agreement. This means that teachers' working conditions would have to be reinstated to pre-2002 levels and the language protecting class size and composition would have to be put back into the collective agreement. One would think that the government would have restored things as directly ordered to do so by the judicial system, however, such is not the case: the government is appealing this decision, and has decided that pending the case being heard by the courts in October, the ruling never existed at all, and that educators should carry on with the same working conditions and funding levels that are currently in place. Thus, they are unwilling to negociate class size and composition because they consider it to be a moot point while the appeal is in progress (even though the previous two rulings did in fact happen and do still exist: a person convicted of murder doesn't get to go home and live life like nothing happened while his lawyers appeal the murder conviction, does he?)

The "retroactive grievances" issue is not one with which I am intimately familiar. I believe it has to do with the fact that because judge Griffin ordered that teachers' working conditions be retroactively restored to pre-2002 levels, all instances of classes which were over capacity in number of students or number of identified special needs cases could then be grieved by the teachers who suffered them. I don't know what that would actually look like, but I imagine it would be a lot of red tape and a bureaucratic nightmare, because a lot of teachers will have directly felt the effects of this contract stripping in their own classrooms in the last 12 years.


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## pistachoo (Sep 6, 2010)

kacairns said:


> Oh and comparing tutoring to teaching a class of 30 students... apples and oranges.
> 
> I've paid for a 1 on 1 tutor as well as 3 children to 1 tutor for my son. Tutors are specialized and direct. They don't stand up in front of a class say 1 thing one time and then help those who need help. They focus on the individual in great depth. Teachers can't do this in a class of 25 students, or even 10 students or even 5 Students.
> 
> My son's whole grade 1 the teacher just kept telling us "he is slow in learning and lagging behind the class". You know what the problem was that the teacher couldn't identify. He is shy and doesn't like to participate in large groups. If a teacher can't recognize something as simple as that they are just a material reader not a teacher. The teacher actually thought she was responsible for his huge turn around. He want from reading below a grade 1 level halfway through the year to reading at a grade 2 level in 1 month all thanks to a tutor and great thing was, for that $20 a hour, they came to our house and didn't go on strike!


Tutoring vs teaching is totally apples to oranges. Completely different methods and techniques are used in each scenario, much like you would set up your tank differently for a single beta vs. a community tank.

Your example of your son's shyness well illustrates the need for smaller class sizes. Also, it is very difficult to attribute a child's "aha moments" to a single source (the teacher, or the tutor). More often it is a combination of both. We, together with parents and other important people in a child's life, are a learning team. The only way you could be sure that the tutor deserved all the credit for your son's progress would be if you had removed your son from class for the duration of the tutoring, and even then, it would not take into account developmental ability: kids' brains grow and develop every day. What was a math mystery in September quickly becomes "What? That's _so easy!_ How did I not know how to do it before?"

Keep in mind, too, that a tutor may be able to specialize in a particular subject area, but I am much more than a tutor: I do not teach <insert subject>, I teach _children._ Being exceptionally good at math does not automatically mean being an excellent math tutor. As a classroom teacher, I specialize in educational pedagogy. Ie, not only do I have to be good at the math, I have to also be good at knowing different ways of teaching it such that all my diverse learners can understand it and be successful learners. (I have been a private tutor almost as many years running as I have been a classroom teacher, so yes, I have experience in both settings.) Imagine what I could do as a classroom teacher if I had more 1 on 1 time with my students in need of some private extra help!

Also, I apologize: I laughed out loud at your "stand up in front of a class and say 1 think one time" -- IF ONLY!! Hahahaahaha...



architeuthis said:


> So if you include the time you spend at night marking and doing other class room related work as part of your work day, then can I count my 2 hour commute each day as part of my work day?
> If so then I'm making even less than I thought I was. And I thought I was doing pretty good.
> 
> "For employment insurance purposes, the accepted length of a teacher's workday is 9.1 hours, of which approximately 5 hours is instructional time."
> If you work an 8 hour day what do you do for the other 3 hours a day. I would think that would be used to mark work and prepare the class.


The 9.1 hour work day for teachers, as determined for EI purposes, does not include commuting.

5 hours of this average day is instructional time. The remaining three hours is spent on any combination of the following activities, depending on the day: (sorry for the wall of text, it would take way too much space as a bulleted list)

Planning lessons, collaborating with colleagues, setting up a joint teaching/research unit with the teacher-librarian, booking time in the computer lab for later that week, touching base with the teacher counselor about a kid we're concerned about, checking our mailbox in the office for notes from parents, making photocopies and prepping material for the next day's science lesson, updating the class blog and online calendar with homework and recent goings-on, marking quizzes, draft writing assignments, tests, projects or other student work, making a list of all the students who haven't handed in said work so we remember to chase it down the next day, talking for 40 mins with the parent who decided to drop by after school instead of making an appointment "because it'll just take 5 mins", answering emails from the VP asking me if I know what to do about a grade 7 student who password-protected one of the student iPads, washing mouldy lunch containers found in the cloakroom, realizing there is no more green paint and asking half the teachers on my floor if they have a bottle I could "borrow", attending staff committee meetings, chairing the pro-d committee meetings, participating in other meetings with the technology committee, the budget committee, the sports day committee, rearranging furniture in the classroom because the health and safety committee doesn't like the tripping hazard that kids' skateboards in the middle of the entrance poses to staff, reviewing emergency procedures for next week's fire/code red/earthquake drills, liaising with the grade 2 teacher about our Buddy Reading period on Friday, and can we use the Library projector to show the two classes their final Puppet Pals story telling projects, emailing a colleague who was absent today to ask her if I can borrow her VGA to MacBook dongle because the Library one has disappeared ("Yes of course, it's in the top drawer of my desk!"), helping the grade 4 teacher at the other end of the hall figure out how to unjam a paper jam in the photocopier, replacing the spent rolls of plastic in the laminator so the K teacher can laminate her nametags for their field trip to the post office, helping the teacher-librarian organize food and drinks and teapots and tablecloths for the Volunteer Tea thanking parents for their support, placing an order for more giant rolls of white paper so we can make banners for the Volunteer Tea, texting my teaching partner to let her know about the assembly that's scheduled to interrupt her teaching day tomorrow...

And then, there is report card season, where you can expect to add another 30 hours of non-instructional time in order to write them well, three times a year.

Some of my colleagues take baskets of marking home with them in the evenings. I cannot, I get too distracted by fishtank forums and car websites, so I generally stay late most days to finish all that I need to do at my desk.

I have not included activities off-site in my list -- overnight field trips, shopping for cool art supplies at weird stores like Urban Source on Main St, buying and making salt play doh at home -- because they would definitely not fit within the 9.1 hour average.

Anyone who decides that only the 5 hours of instructional time spent with students should "count" as paid work is sorely deluded. I cannot teach without knowing and preparing my material. The kids will not learn if they do not get regular timely feedback on their progress. Preparation and marking are an integral part of teaching. Also, of note: I teach a combined grade 5/6 class, and I have years of experience (and a preference for) teaching combination classes. In the hands of a less experienced teacher, having a combination class generally involves a lot more prep than a "straight" grade would.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

pistachoo said:


> You're welcome! Yes, the key issue of class size and composition would require hiring more of both generalist and specialist teachers. This would ensure that classroom teachers would have a manageable number of students whose needs they can better meet, with the support of specialist teachers (teacher-librarians, teacher-counselors, resource teachers, music teachers, speech language pathologists, district psychologists, etc.)
> 
> I'm sorry I missed your second question. I don't know what will happen in October.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your very detailed, well written, and rational answer. I really appreciate it. I can picture you as a very professional teacher who does not let your emotion get the better of you in front of your students. I appreciate your trying to answer with facts rather than with rumors. You sound like a very professional educator, and I think your students are very lucky to have you.

A teacher is someone that the public holds a high regard for; a high expectation is also placed upon them as they are responsible in a large part in shaping our future. As a parent of three, I am frustrated but I like the teachers of my school and I respect them greatly. I have taught a bit after univerity as a teacher as well as as a tutor, so I can relate to some of the stress of teaching. I also enjoyed teaching and loved to see my students excel. One thing I found to be very important is to teach the students to make an informed decision by presenting information to them in a form which is as unbiased as possible from both sides and teach them to learn how to think for themselves--rather than just attack the side a teacher does not like with rhetoric, rumors, and propaganda. I think I can speak for all parents that we do not want to see the teacher of our children acting like an anti-government fantatic, as it greatly undermines the credibility and professionalism of the teacher when he/she is acting that way. I want to applaud you for staying in control of your emotion and trying to be as rational and logical as possible. I understand that it is hard. I respect it greatly.

About the legal issue I am no legal expert but I believe if the proper legal procedure allows for an appeal then the decision/verdict is not finalized until no more appeal is allowed. I asked my question precisely because I was wondering if the government is allowed any more appeal. If they cannot appeal anymore and the verdict is final, which would imply that the contract would have to be restored--is this strike still necessary as far as putting the original terms back in the contract is concerned?

To use your example of an alleged murderer as an example, I believe the proper analogy may be that this alleged murderer will not be sentenced to dealth until all appeal options have been exhausted. His sentence will not be executed until the final appeal decision is heard. If he wins the final appeal he can even go free. Therefore, it would not be reasonable to sentence or execute him before the verdict of the final appeal.

I really wish this issue would resolve quickly but I cannot see how they can when the difference is so hugh between the two parties. I have loads of respect for the teachers and I support the teachers for fighting for what they believe is what they deserve.

I do view the teachers and the union as two difference entity. I have personally spoken to a lot of teachers who told me they personally did not vote for a full strike and were not really happy with the way this was handled.

I wonder if there is perhaps a better organization that the teacher should hire to negotiate on their behalf, which may possibly yield a more favorbale outcome without causing the teachers, students, and parents so much hassel? After all, the union has been representing the teachers in contract negotiation for almost 30 years and we can count with one hand how many times they were successful in getting the terms they wanted. If this agent has such a poor record in sucessfull contract, shall we keep hiring him? If we still want to hire him, then another question may be since the method of negotiation this agent has been using has yielded such a low rate of success for almost 30 years, should he be allowed to keep using the same method?

I am very interested to hear your thoughts on this, thank you.


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## rwong2k10 (Dec 27, 2010)

skabooya, i'm glad you're putting in the extra effort in helping students and I hope you do get the benefits and raise. Let me find the link about the average income in Canada, 45k's not that bad.

But, from my personal experience with the surrey school district teachers, they were pretty useless, yes useless.

I had a socials teacher, went to class everyday, didn't care about anything, spent 2 hours reading straight word for word from the text book.
I had a comp sci teacher, went to class, told us to read from the text and lets us free while he sits at his desk reading his novel.
I had a gym teacher, the guy was out of shape (ok that's my personal biased opinion), he was teaching us incorrect methods, posture and techniques in sports and potentially injuring players with the wrong techniques.

Just a few of my examples, I wish when I was in high school, I knew how to complain or report about the teachers, but the union will probably protect them and one voice wasn't going to make a difference, but I was too busy meeting girls and working towards my university scholarship.

The ones who make an effort and a difference, I'll be happy to fight with them, the useless ones, should have been fired and replaced with ones that want to teach and help students.

Hours and hours of unpaid prep time, I do that for my work every single day. The above examples I've given above, they obviously didn't require any prep time.


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## AccidentalAquarist (Sep 11, 2013)

I am truly dismayed to see certain individuals here attacking the teachers. 
Sure we've all had good and bad experiences with teachers while we were ourselves being educated. But to attack teachers as a whole because you had a couple of bad experiences shows that you haven't learned anything about yourselves. Learning is a two way street sure a good teacher makes it easier, but the student also has to be willing. I know, I was one of those shit disturbers who rarely attended class and disrupted it when I did - the only difference with me was I wanted to learn, but sex, drugs, rock'n'roll and 30+ students slowing down the teacher wasn't working for me, and that was at the IB level (everything but english which I always failed miserably). Having one student like me in a standard class today would likely destroy the class.

I can't fathom how even my bad teachers managed, and I have after years come to greatly appreciate the ones that were awesome, if it wasn't for them I probably would have dropped out sooner and be 6' under or incarcerated (again). My hats off to all teachers even the bad ones because students DO learn from them, though it may not be what's in the curriculum.

What these naysayers should be rallying against is the system itself, not the ones being ground down by it. The model we use is archaic. It's essentially the same as two medieval nations facing off on the battle field and presenting terms for the the others surrender. If the sides don't agree then swords are drawn and countless people become direct and indirect victims. Do I know of a better way? No. but that doesn't mean that one isn't possible. 

As for the wages that teachers are requesting, I believe that they are truly deserved. I make $48K plus pension/benefits/30 days vacation etc. That only took me 100 hours of weekend courses to achieve. Do I want my kids educated by someone like me, yes. But then I want someone with a hell of a lot more training and experience to teach them the million other things that I don't have the foggiest idea of. And honestly to have someone with that degree of knowledge and training should be making more than someone who only took a couple of weekend courses.

On the other hand, I also believe that if the teachers were treated with the respect due, and provided the tools and training to do their job efficiently and effectively. Then teacher morale would be higher and wage demands would be lower. I personally would be willing to do my same job for much less IF management treated me and my crew with respect and were proactive in dealing with our needs.

So before anyone starts spouting off about how the teachers don't deserve what they are bargaining for, please educate yourselves. It's not the teachers who are at fault, it's the system and those who look to corrupt it.


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## rwong2k10 (Dec 27, 2010)

I do agree it's the system, the union and the government, but I blame the system more,

in history, the union has never got along with any of the government, so-cred, NDP and now liberals.

When this resolves, I predict the next time the contract is over in 6-10 years, when the NDP is in power, the same thing will happen again.

Unfortunately, I have no ideas or recommendations on how to fix the system.

I'm not classifying all teachers, there's quite a few good ones out there. But not all teachers should get a raise, the good ones, double their salaries and benefits, I'm all for that.

Fixing the class size and composition, that's important to me. How to fix it, I have no idea either.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

I'll chime in on my 2 cents here..

First off, I didn't read everyone's previous posts but I did read quite a few of them. I completely agree with AccidentalAquarist in that the system as a whole is failing. This is probably due to many parts (the government, the population, the diversity of the population, the teachers union, and an increased reliance on technology..and probably a thousand other things). Unfortunately, the system isn't going to get changed from a strike or anything short of some crazy government change imo. So what do people focus on? Well for a start, people blame the teachers - "if only they could do their job better our system would work" is probably something a lot of people think of, and in some cases they're correct. If every teach was that "top 1%" of teachers who finds a way to profoundly impact every students life our system would probably be fantastic. But let's be real, that's not going to happen. In short, I think a lot of great teachers get a bad rep for not being able to do more when its really tough to do more with what they're given. 

However, I think a lot of people on here are totally correct that there are TERRIBLE teachers out there who really just hide behind the union. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with paying teachers more if I knew that every teacher was like a "7/10", but that's really not the case. I was in highschool from 2003-2008 and in that time I had teachers who would literally show up to class, tell you to read 30 pages of a textbook, LEAVE THE CLASS (and drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes and not get disciplined), then return at the end of the period and assign homework. There was actually no point in having a teacher, a monkey could probably have accomplished the same feat. There are other teachers who show up to class, read what the textbook says, and then says if you don't understand the material you need to get a tutor - again, a monkey could essentially replace this person (although at least they weren't drunk!). Then, there's the burned out teacher, one who has lost their passion for teaching but is still droning over the material. They know how to teach, and they can teach the material, but their attitude makes wanting to learn really tough and the class just isn't a great experience. I'd say the previous 3 examples made up about 25% of the teachers I've had from Kindergarten to University. These are the people I have a problem with making up to $90k per year. It is not that I don't support teachers, or that I don't support the union, or that I'm a "stingy person". It's that the union allows these people to hide and reap great rewards.

In short: the system sucks but it won't change; some teachers are amazing and deserve more than what they're currently asking for; some teachers suck and shouldn't be teachers... The problem lies within what middle ground should be reached to balance the amazing teachers who should get a lot more, the decent teachers who should get a bit more, and the terrible teachers who should probably not be teaching.. oh.. and the government officials who claim there's no money but somehow manage to get more raises than everyone else combined..


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