# What is "eating" my betta?



## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Hello,

That started maybe a week or 2 ago. I noticed a bit of a colour change under the "chin" of my male betta Rainbow. It slowly became more greyish. I usually put 1/2 teaspoon of salt per 1 g during every water change (20% once a week), the temp is around 77-78.
A few days ago I notice a small hole ot top of his mouth which really worried me, so I did a water change in the middle of the week, add a bit more salt and put the temp a bit up around 79-80.

Today I think this hole is bigger than it was. I did a better checkup and made some pictures. It is just the head area, mostly the part below and around the mouth. And it seems to progress very slowly. Actually at the pictures it is looking much worse than it is, because of the strong light + the flashlight I used to make a better picture. The reflection makes it looks like completely eatten which it is not. There is no blood or anything like it looks on the picture. But it is "eaten" in a way as I can see some holes in the area below mouth and I managed to take a picture of the one on top of it which bothers me a lot.

The body and fins seems OK, he is VERY hungry as usual, water parameters are OK.

Please, help!

Thanks a lot!





































He is bended like that as he is fighting/playing with my finger till my husband is taking pictures. 









Closer look of the hole:









The changed colour and "eaten" part, as I said it is not as bad as it seems, he is red, so that is not blood, but the scales are not well.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Nobody have seen this before?

Could it be old age? I have him for only 4 months, but who knows...

I was thinking today could it be the filter, it's AC20 in a 20 g on the slowest level, but he feels the flow. No idea if that can bother him. But first few months he was with a very slow filter and then a couple of weeks with none till I was thinking what to get for him. Can the flow stress him and cause this?


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## TCR (Jul 13, 2010)

i find it hard to tell from the pics.. you could try using some melafix and seeing if that helps.. i cant really tell what it is but if im paranoid i add salt and melafix


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

I did increase the salt and the temp a bit. And yeah, I am getting paranoid now 
Melafix and stuff I read are actually bad for bettas 
What that can be


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

How is your betta doing? I hope fine. I was wondering if you could answer some of the questions, before I can recommend some changes or treatments. How big is your tank? Do you have heater? What food do you give your betta and how much and how often? When you're adding salt, do you properly disolve it before you add it to your betta tank? Actual salt chrystals can burn their skin, plus longterm salt use is not recommended. I only use water conditioner and I still let the water sit for 24-48 hours before water change. With just regular water changes and no other chemicals added I had one betta that lived for 5 years! I would suggested water changes more often for now and see how it goes. Please make sure that water temperature is very close to the the water your betta is currently in.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Hi InfraredDream, I'm very sorry to hear that you have a problem with your lovely betta. I hope that this one doesn't develop into anything.

I haven't seen this problem in a betta before and I'm not even sure I'm looking at the thing that you're concerned about (does it look a bit like a sore spot or wound?). But two things come to mind assuming that the betta arrived healthy.

The first is, that your betta has somehow been infected with whatever it was that your guppies had, and that he's fighting it off more successfully. (Just a guess, but the betta may not have been in the same tank or exposed in any way, so it's a long shot.) 

The second is, perhaps the salt is irritating his skin a little too much? I don't know anything about mixing bettas and salt, so that may also be a shot in the dark, but I just toss it out there in case this guy is actually healthy and that the salt has just been building up in his water (through evaporation, say). 

The fact that he's eating is a very good sign. So, I hope that he continues to thrive.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Hello,

BIG thanks for your concern! I am sorry I wasn't around today to answer earlier.

The situation is still the same, I can't say if it's progressing or not, but it is still there.

I am going with questions one by one.

- He is in a 5.5 g. During last few weeks the tank is divided and he is sharing it with 2 females, he is into 2/3 of it. The ladies were supposed to be there for a week or two only till I was ready with their own tank. But other things happened (needed to move some shrimps out of another tank and had tons of endler babies) and the femlaes are still there.
I can't say if that thing started before, around or after I divided the tank, I would say it was before that. 
The tank is very well planted, has a cave which he loves but maybe takes too much of the room?? and some trumpet snails (he ate the pond ones!).

- I moved the filter (AC20 at its slowest) into the female side a few days ago, so now he has no flow. No bubble nests, so he obviously is not at his best. Before I put this filter he was doing them all the time. Then he stopped, I thought probably the filter flow was bothering the nest, no matter I made sure the flow goes into the most heavily planted part of the tank.

- I have a heater and the temp is around 79

- I feed him betta 2-3 betta pellets once a day and some frozen bloodworms the next one. One day of the week I give nothing. He is always hungry, so at some point I was worried he is not eating enough. 

- I disolve the salt in the water I use for the change - 1/2 teaspoon per 1 g. My usual routine is: I put the water in a bucket in the morning and add the salt. At the evening I add the water conditioner, get the old water out (takes 5-10 min) and add the new one. No other chemicals in this tank.
I don't add that amount of salt each time. There were periods with no salt at all, but the usual is a few grains with every water change (20% once a week). I started adding it again when I noticed that issue. Maybe it is too much for too long.

- When I leave the new water for the whole day the temperature is very close to the one in the tank. But sometimes I am in a hurry and it can be colder.

Sorry for the long message, I just wanted to give as many details as possible. Hopefully that will help.

Morainy, thanks for your input as well.
He wasn't in the same tank as guppies and had no contact with them. I can't be 100% sure I didn't move anything during maintanace, but I was extremely careful at that time, you remember how paranoid I was. But it could have happened, the two tanks are side by side.

I am concerned for the hole he has on top of his mouth, I am pretty sure it wasn't there before, you can see it clearly on one of the pictures.
And the other thing is that change in the colour. It is not irritated, it is not a wound, just the colour started to become greyish and then the area looks like something is wrong with the scales. Difficult to explain and the pictures are not showing it exactly how it is. But you can see the difference between his normal body and the head.

Looking forward for any advice you may have. I LOVE this guy and so do my whole family.

What I think I'll do is a bigger (maybe 30-40%) water change tomorrow with no salt in it. And then I will do 20% every 3 days with no salt again. I know bettas appreciate clear water always, so hopefully that will help. Especially if the salt is part of the problem.


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## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Could it be head and lateral line erosion (HLLE)?: Head and lateral line erosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember Grant from IPU saying that old carbon filters can cause this problem. How old is your carbon filter? Maybe shoot Grant (Rastapus) a pm?


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

WOW, that looks ugly  I don't think that is my issue. I use some carbon and change it every 3 weeks strictly. Right now I have none there as I needed the mesh bag for the new tank and had no time to go to the store and buy one.


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

sorry to hear this milena. i would throw an indian almond leaf in at least as another first step. best of luck with solving this


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks a lot! I was thinking about that too, but not sure where to get it and if it is good for that kind of issues.
I just want to see him happy again soon!


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

Hi, I posted a reply yesterday and it's not here... strange. I got logged off by the time I was finished so maybe it did not go through after I was finished.
Anyway, I hope your betta is doing good.
Looks like you do everything right regarding temperature, water changes, feeding...
The only couple of things I can think of is the salt, that may irritate his skin or it could be some sort of parasite or fungus brought by other fish or frozen bloodworms. I would eliminate the salt and maybe stop the frozen food for now and see how that goes. You can try something else for variety (daphnia are good, lots of protein and help with digesting). clean water and more clean water is the key.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks for the reply.

It is looking worse today, like completely lost the colour there, it was greyish, now it's almost white  And he is slower and more lethargic today, resting more... The water should have really low salt level right now, not sure if that is the reason it got worse 
I just gave him bloodworms though (he ate them real fast), I thought it is good to make him stronger.
Do you recommend to change the water even more often? How often and how much?
I feel like the guy is really getting worse now and I feel awful


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Should I treat for parasite? I was thinking about that yesterday evening too. Can it be a parasite when only one part of the body is infected?
Could it be a form of fungus when it it not cotton-like, just white-ish?
And can it be cleaned by itself? With water changes only?


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## O.C.D Fishies (Apr 21, 2010)

If you don't mind coming out here I can give you some Indian Almond leaves to see if that will help. They are supposed to leach tanins that have anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties into the water. They are also supposed to be good for bettas. Let me know, I have a few to spare. I hope he gets better soon.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thank you so much. If it can help and has no side effects I would definitely try. Don't wanna medicate him especially as nobody seems to know what that can be 
How are these leaves used? I remember I read before that people boil them, etc?
Can you just leave it in the water?

I'll PM you.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

OK, he is worse today, seems like whatever it is, it's progressing. He is slow and swim slow with difficulties. The white colour or discolouration in at the whole bottom part of his body - like one line between his body and bottom fins.

Can I take him somewhere to a doctor any anybody that could tell what that is and if it's too late  I am losing faith now. It was slow process and now I see changes in him every day


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

I hope he can pull through. Do you have some new pics? maybe someone will be able to tell what it is exactly based on photo. Island pets have some betta experts, so you may want to give them a quick call. You will need to identify what it is before you start to medicate.
As for the medications, I always try to keep them as a very last option. Once when I started to medicate, poor betta was gasping for air and he got much worse in a short period of time and I wasn't even half way through treatment. I had to do quick water change to help. I've also read somewhere it's good to let them rest in the dark. Some people cover the tank even during the day. Not sure if it will help in your case.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks a lot. I was also considering going to IPU in Richmond with him this evening, it is a long travel and I worry if I would stress them more. But I am afraid somebody has to see him to be able to suggest what is bugging him. And he was not bought from IPU, so I feel bad for asking them to help.
I did another 20% change this morning (last one was on Sunday morning). And I reduced the lighting as I saw him resting. I will leave him in the dark, hope the plants can handle that in a short run.
Something else is he started moving his gills more this morning, not rapidly, but more deeply. He is not gasping for air more often than usual, just these deep gill movements.
I will try to make more pictures at the late afternoon, but not sure it will be more visible than on the last ones. Just the colour is real pale now and not only on the head, but bottom of the belly/body too.

Hope he will make it.


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

Isn't IPU on North Road in Burnaby closer to you? I wouldn't worry about your betta not being purchased there. I hope they can help. 
Oh, and you mentioned plants, do you use any fertilizers?


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

No, I put no chemicals here. Just sometimes I have carbon in the filter and the salt. That is all I put. No buffers or anything like that.

The Burnaby store is closer, but I have my reasons to prefer the other one. Maybe I should go, just this evening is very bad for going all the way there 

I just got home and he is swimming, got more excited when he saw me. No other change. I turned the light completely off.

How often water changes you recommend? And how big? 20% every other day?


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

I hope IPU can help. I would do small water changes (20% is fine) maybe every other day for couple of weeks and see how that goes (unless you start to medicate, then check the recommended water changes on the bottle). If you decide to use medication, remember to take carbon out (if you haven't done it already) from the filter before you start dosing.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, carbon is out for a week already. And this is what I do now, 20% every other day.
Will go to Richmond's IPU tomorrow, hope the guy will feel better soon.

Thanks so much for the support, it means a lot!


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

He is very bad now, staying at the bottom breathing heavily  I am afraid there is nothing we can do now.. just hope


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear that. I always feel sad when I see poor little guys suffering and I can not do anything to help. Let's hope he is not suffering too much.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

I hope so. Very sad to look at him now... all the memories of when he was active and happy - the best fish ever with HUGE personality. He is my daugther's fish and I will never forget the instant love these two had for each other. And the whole family got attached to him a lot. We love him dearly.

I wonder could that be old age? It's kinda comorting feeling, but I don't think that is the case.
Hope I see him swim tomorrow morning. Miracles do happen sometimes...

Thanks for your support once again, it means a lot!


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

How is your betta doing? I'm still hoping he can make it.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

He died about an hour ago. It was like he was holding up for us to wake up and say goodbye. I saw him trying so hard the whole evening and was hoping just a bit.
I wish I know what was that, I remember some signs from weeks ago... Memories are tough sometimes.

Thanks a lot for all the support. If we decide to get another male some day, I hope will know better, not that I think of what we could have done differently. My son is blaming the divider, he had insisted I remove it for the night, so Rainbow has his all tank for his last night...

Anyway, thanks again.

P.S. BTW, he ate yesterday evening. So I guess this guy was tough till the end. I am posting that just to say that loosing apetite is not always a sign.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry to hear that, I guess it was inevitable, you did what you could man.


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## O.C.D Fishies (Apr 21, 2010)

I am sorry to hear about Rainbow. Remember don't beat yourself up. Animals and fish can not talk and tell us exactly what is is. It is more a guessing game and feeding different meds is not always better in the end. By the sounds of it he had a better life than most do. And if you do decide to get another one you will have learnt from this experience to be a bit more aware. Same happened to me and my little guy now is living the life lol. I hope this doesn't turn you off from bettas and you get another, which I am sure it won't. We can only do what we know. Sorry to hear about your loss.


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

Sorry to hear that your betta died. You did all you could to save him and as O.C.D Fishies said, feeding different meds doesn't always help. Unfortunately when we decide to have fish, we have to start dealing with situations like this sooner or later. I'm pretty sure next betta will live lot longer. There is always so many that need to be rescued from those little plastic cups in pet stores. I always say to myself not to go check them and then I always walk out of the store with one (or two). Once I had 13 bettas at the same time! They are cool, but too much work if you want to keep them happy and healthy. So don't give up! Every betta is a character and surprise you with something different....I just love them all!


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

You made me cry, I thought I was doing better. Thanks a lot once again for all the support and kind words. I just wish I knew what killed him. I guess we will end up with another male, but not sure when as the girls are enjoying the whole tank a lot. Totally not ready to think of another tank and if/when I get another boy, I will keep him in a 5 g by himself. I think my son could be right and maybe dividing the tank to host the girl temporally is when all that started. He was quite a character, great personality and never accepted anybody in HIS tank. 
Saving bettas from the small cups.. this is exactly what my husband said to my daugther this morning, let's hope we gave him a happy live saving him from the cup in the store. And he said we will most probably adopt another one to save him and give him love.
Anyway I better stop now  It's so good to have you that understand, I guess most people out there wouldn't understand how much you can get attached to a $5 fish.


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi Milena. Sorry to hear about him I know how you tried everything you could 

I think you will have another one soon... I have five now all different colors, thanks to Richmond IPU. That store has a sale on male betta's right now, i think until Friday. You should definitely go there and save one from those little plastic bags they are in


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

I cried many times when my fish died. There will be always someone who will feel the same and always someone who will laugh. I keep telling myself I shouldn't name them, because then it's easier to deal with it, but 2 days later, my new betta always gets a name. If it is not me, then my husband picks something reaaaaaaally silly and I have to pick a name so the poor betta won't get stuck with a crazy name. Just to make you feel better, here are my three guys: ANDY nice pale yellow with blue metallic hightlight (he reminds me one singer in his crazy white/light blue outfit), MR. JUMPY brown with yellowish fins, he jumped out on the counter when I tried to change his water once and SPOT he is dark, almost black with nice orange yellow spots on his fins.
Oh, and keep us posted with your new additions


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

You are so sweet, thank you so much! I feel better today after I read your posts  
Don't really feel ready to get another boy right now. It is difficult with these guys, I think male bettas are not really fish, they have sooo much personality.
It was funny and sad when my husband went to the kitchen yesterday evening without turning the light on and he then told me he had opened the drawer very careful not to awake Rainbow...  just a habit... I asked him what about the females that are in the tank now, and he said he haven't even thought of them... And they are beautiful and we love them and all our fish, but this guy was special for sure.

I tried to imagine how your houses/appartments are looking with 5 or 13 males in there!! WOW  Would you share how you keep them? Separate small tanks or? I don't know if we are ready, but we need to go to the store and get some nerite snails, so in case we fall in love with a boy there... I don't feel like diving Rainbow's tank again. Maybe 2.5 (half of the 5.5) planted and decorated is not enough to make a betta happy.
Looking forward for your stories. Reading you sharing about your boys helps me much more than you can possible imagine.
Thanks a lot!


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

You get one when you're ready. Don't rush, everybody needs some time. Currently I have only 3 boys. I had 13 about a year ago. I lived in the cold dark basement and I guess they did not like it much either. I know they supposed to have big tank with heater and stuff but I only have them in betta condos with real plants on my shelving unit in the living room. We just recently moved, so I haven't got a chance to setup my 5 gal with dividers yet. In my opinion, having betta in small condo with clean water, live plants, good food and lots of attention is still better than having them in the small cup in the store. I can keep more in small condos, than in larger tanks, so I can "save" more and that is the way I look at it. They seem pretty happy and always do their little dance when it's feeding time. Sometimes they drive me crazy, cause they keep knocking down the food with the fast movement. )


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Beautiful loving bettas post. Thank you for that. So by "condos" you mean some smaller tanks/bows? I have a spare 2 g plastic, no filter, no lights. I also have a 1 g glass jar I used for some shrimps before. I just don't think that can get cycled properly and everything. I tried it with the cray too, but it gets dirty and cloudy in a day or two. How you keep them in condos? How often you do water changed and how much? As I said Rainbow was in his own 5.5, but recently shared it with 2 girls with a divider. Not sure if that made him unhappy though. I just see the girls now moving so much more and looking happier than before as they have the whole tank.
I don't know. Sorry for my loooong posts. Seems I need to think and talk about keeping bettas right now.
Thanks for chatting with me.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh, I am so sorry to hear that your beautiful betta died. I didn't expect that! What a sad turn of events. I hope that your kids are not taking it too hard. Sending all of you a hug.

:-(


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm glad I could help you with your grieving. I have my bettas in 3L betta condos with some Egeria. My apartment temperature is pretty stable now (around 75-76 F) so they love it and I feel ok having them like that without heater. I usually change 100% water every 5 days or so. I use cold water with some conditioner and let water sit for 24-48 hours prior to changing (so the water gets same temperature as bettas). I have gravel and couple of rocks in there, that I just rinse. They are by the window so they have lots of natural light during the day (try to keep them away from the direct sun, it causes algae to grow too fast). I read once on the betta fish website that little salt and aquarisol with every water change keeps your bettas from getting sick. From my experience - not true. I think it only made them more weak. I will never do that again and I will only stick with clean water. I won't use medication unless it's absolutely necessary. My MR. JUMPY is about 3 years old now (or more, not sure how old he was when I got him) I have ANDY over one year and I just got SPOT in August. I may be getting more when we settle down. We just recently moved, so I have lots of other things to work on now and I don't want to neglect my "boys". I've also just started planted aquarium, so I have to be careful not to get overwhelmed. But it's so nice to come home and look at the fish after busy and frustrating day at work. 
There is lots of controversy going on about how to properly keep bettas. I think the right way is always the caring way no matter what size of the bowl you own. Bettas can get neglected in bigger tanks sometimes more easy. People think that because tank is bigger they are ok to push water changes. 
You said you had them in the same tank with the divider with some females. Please remember, if male betta can see female, he can get pretty "wild" trying to impress her and sometimes he can hurt himself. I tried to breed them once. It was beautiful to watch them. I got as far as eggs and then male ate them. Oh well, I may try again one day.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, it was supposed to be a temporal think only, for a week or so. But as I said other events happened and as all 3 fish were looking OK after the initial 2-3 days of staying close to the divider, I let them be. But when my son said that Rainbow probably wasn't happy to not have his full tank, now that stuck with me and I won't do that again if we end up saving another boy (now my son wants a new one, but the rest of the family is holding back).
Reading your posts make me think though... The 1 g jar or the plastic 2 g... Not sure, but will leave it in my mind to wander and I guess time will tell. 

Morainy, thanks a lot for the words of support. It was pretty bad here for a couple of days, now we're trying to concentrate on enjoying the baby endlers, breeding new (ramshorn) snails, etc. I'll transfer the hug to them, I know they will appreciate it! Thanks a lot!


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

*my three "boys"*

Here are my betta boys. It's really hard to take a good picture, cause they always get so excited when I get close. They always think it's feeding time and start swimming fast 

MR. JUMPY









SPOT









ANDY


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

WOW, they are all gorgeous!! Thanks so much for showing them. 
So, you say 100% water change once a week can keep it that clean for them. That is awesome!

Kids are enjoying the girls now. They were thinking about names for them for weeks, but today they finally named them and started playing with them a lot. And the girls are very cute and love the attention as well.

roadrunner, I wanted to ask you about your planted tank. Do you need some plants to add variety there? I have different low demanding ones like water lettuce, water sprite, sunset hydro.. Let me know if you want to add something.


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

nice road runner

i'll try to get good pictures tomorrow but the blue one is very reclusive so far...


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Nice! Waiting for your pictures as well. I love how this sad thread turn into a betta love one. Thank you all!

user_error, my plant offer goes to you too. I am sorry I had no time to do the gardening before we met last time. So, PM me next time you're coming my way and I'll give you a bunch of whatever you want of these.


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

*Got lazy these are late*

Sorry got lazy over the long weekend. Here's the five I had, I have six now 

Red -










Blue -










Red/Green -










Purplish blue -










And the juvenille female in with the purple male, I got her from another BCA member -










I think you'll agree the male colors are super nice I couldn't resist them when I saw them at IPU


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

All of them are gorgeous!!! Wonderful bettas! Thanks so much for sharing!
I managed to resist getting one over the weekend, I felt it wasn't quiet the time. But during last 2 days I am thinking so much for 2 of them I saw, that I think I will figure out a place to put at least one.

roadrunner started a Betta talk topic, I hope we can make a group and move our love for bettas there.
Thanks a lot for turning this thread into a positive one!


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