# Discus and cerium oxide



## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Hello! First post on this forum, so please don't judge harshly  My husband is in a process of setting up a 65 g tank that will eventually become a discus tank. We just set it up last week, started cycling, bought the plants and... screwed it up. I left our nearly 3 year old near aquarium without supervision and she started playing with the magnetic cleaner and sure enough - the glass is now scratched. Some scratches are just barely visible, some are deep enough to feel with the fingernail. We read about using cerium oxide and wool pad to buff the scratches out (yes, i know, very hard to do and could be impossible on the deep ones). But here is a trick question - even if we manage to buff the scratches out, would this tank be safe for discus? Could even the trace amounts of cerium oxide harm the fish? If anyone who keeps discus could share their experience that would be greatly appreciated.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Will you not empty the tank before polishing and then clean afterwards (I am assuming the inside is scratched).

I looked up cerium toxicity and it looks like it's low to moderate, and in low doses causes nothing more than skin irritation. Even vinegar can do that. So if you were to clean it up and rinse well afterwards, it would be no more hazardous than chlorine (in fact, less).

Another suggestion is to turn the aquarium around 180 degrees so the back is now the front. Can you do that? Then you won't have to polish it at all.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

We were thinking of draining the water, but leaving the substrate (it's 80 pounds of substrate in a tank where I can't even reach the bottom with my hand and I'm 5'9). The idea was to use plastic wrap and tape it to the aquarium, covering the substrate. I am afraid that we will scratch the tank even more if we try to get the substrate out. 
As for turning the tank around - that was my initial suggestion, but apparently the front has different type of glass. I was trying to find that tank online, it's Oceanic 65g, but no luck so far. It almost feels like it's easier to buy a new tank.... And thank you so much for the reply. It's good to know about the toxicity.


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

hydrochloric acid works for buffing out scratches in glass too, rinse it really well when done and then fill it and put in some baking soda - all gone.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

It has a Starphire pane in the front? If so, they're a bit softer than regular glass. I've never polished glass before, but by accounts of all the car detailing guys I talked to, it requires that you know how to run a rotary buffer properly, and I've only had a random orbital (PC7224).


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes, it is Starphire pane. I think the biggest problem with polishing is that if the scratch is deep, polishing will create a distortion. I suppose it being softer will make the job a little easier. However, it still seems like the substrate needs to be taken out. At least it is known how to de-chlorinize the water, but I can't find anything on neutralizing cerium oxide. Another question, where do peple buy aquariums around here? We got ours in King Ed's, but those guys are not exactly customer support fanatics. Where else can I look?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

J&L. I am sure Jeff can get you anything that King Ed's can and will be much nicer about it. I got my cube from there.










Polishing will distort the glass in the area. If you already spent the big bucks, and want to have a show tank, why not just sell this one and get a new perfect one and let someone else deal with the scratch (or not) who doesn't mine a starphire pane with a scratch on it?


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

That's my train of thought too. However, it is hubby's dream tank and he is so very disheartened with what happened and doesn't want to deal with buying/selling. Since the kiddo scratched the tank on my watch I feel very guilty too. That's a great cube btw. Black background looks good (we were just talking about black or mirror background yesterday). I phones J&L, but they don't carry Oceanic. I will need to phone them back and ask about the dimensions. I phoned April earlier today asking if she knew anything about cerium oxide and discus, but she says she just lives with the sctratches and is fine with them )


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Just ask Jeff to make you one exactly the way you want it, starphire on all sides if you want. Drilled, overflows, Eurobraced, whatever, they can get it done. They don't do it. They have a builder do it for them. Mine has polished edged, is drilled and eurobraced, but I cheaped out on the Starphire glass. The black I just painted on myself in the garage. Easy to do.

Oceanic makes nice tanks. I've seen the ones at King Ed's. I guess you can also try Island Pets Unlimited (North Road or Burnaby) to see if they can get you the Oceanic. I know lots of people rave about their service and also Grant the owner's dedication to the hobby.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

How long does it take to actually make one to order? And I will definitely call Island Pet's. The more I think about the more I'm sure we just need to buy a new tank and start over. Now only to find a tank with the proper dimensions....


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Mine took 4 weeks.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

That's a long time to look at those scratches and not do anything...  If I would want to sell the Oceanic and buy a new one - the plants and fish need to be transferred over right away and I don't have a spare tank. I guess they can stay in a bucket for a day... Imagining the whole process makes my teeth hurt.... However, polishing the scratches out just might be even worse.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rubber made tub and sponge filter. Get one going now. You can have the fish in there for weeks (If you're on planted tank you should know Scolley had his in there for 4 weeks while he got his Starphire 180 when the big Kahuna leaked spectacularly). As for the plants, you can have them in a bucket with a few hours of light a day and they'll get beat up a bit but live, unless you're doing high tech with CO2 injection in which cases the losses will be higher.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

I like that idea! Now only to convince my significant other. 
Called J&L, they don't have 65g in stock, but could order one in two weeks. Island Pets simply said they don't have and recommended phoning King Ed's. And those guys did not even pick up. I am so reluctant to buy another one from them though...
Planted Tank is a fascinating read, but I haven't gotten to that story just yet. No CO2 injections, all the plants are "just from the store" - less than a week. 
It seams doable when you say it like that. Thank you for the advice, it is all very much appreciated.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You're welcome. I just reread the thread and realize that you're just starting, so the tank isn't even cycled. Unless you have tons of plants, I would just sell them all and start fresh. No hassles. As for the fish, did you do a fishless cycle and what kinds of fish and number do you have? Maybe a pic of the tank?


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab205/giraffee/iPhonePics033.jpg

We did not cycle with just plants. We just bought 12 zebra danios about 4 days ago. There are more plants now. We bought Java fern, java moss, sword, a few others names of which I did not yet learn.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You're cycling with the danios? Did you get them all that from King Ed's?

Your investment is small so far, so I would just sell what you have for plants and fish and start over. It's simpler. And read up on a fishless cycle.

If you decide to do that and want plants to start over, PM me when you're ready. I'll have Java Fern and Anubias and other plants I can donate to your cause as we both live in Burnaby.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Not everything from King Ed's. The tank and the danios. The plants are from PJ Pets and Aquarium West. I guess reading up would be a good thing in any case.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

PJ pets gets Aquaflora plants so you can get those from Pat (MyKiss) or Charles of Canadian Aquatics. Same price and everything. Either way, think about it, as you haven't lost much time since you're just getting started.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Any suggestions on how to get the substrate out?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Big hose. Suck it all out with the water and put it through a strainer. No scooping, so no scratching. Is it just gravel?


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

It's some kind of special substrate/gravel that is supposed to be good without fertilizer for a year. I cannot remember the brand name, but it was expensive. 4 bags of it went in - so that's 80 pounds of it. I cannot imagine getting it all out with a hose. But it sure sound like we need that Rubbermade anyways....


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I see. From KE's? Probably EcoComplete or Flourite Black. So you'd want to save it. You can get it all with a hose, but likely will have to add water back in the tank to do so. You'll just have to scoop it out. Push it away from the front glass so you don't scratch it anymore. If it's Eco-complete, it's fracted clay and softer than gravel. I have not used Flourite so not sure how hard/scratchy it is.


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## target (Apr 21, 2010)

Like 2wheels said, just fan the substrate away from the front glass and scoop it out. I have removed 50 lbs of gravel, and another time 50 lbs of sand from a glass tank without a scratch. I just scooped it out with enough water left in the tank to keep it covered. Splash the water against the glass to move the substrate into the middle and scoop it out. For the last bit which is too hard to scoop press a sponge into it. The substrate sticks to the sponge. Then you shake out the sponge under water in a bucket and the substrate will fall off. Keep doing this until you get it all. Takes time but isn't too difficult.

And I also agree with selling off what you have and starting again. Polishing out the scratches could work, but I doubt you'll be happy with that tank knowing they were/are there.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes, from KE's. Googled the brand names and it's definitely EcoComplete. Good to know that's a softer substrate. Though it did scratch the glass anyways )


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

giraffee said:


> Yes, from KE's. Googled the brand names and it's definitely EcoComplete. Good to know that's a softer substrate. Though it did scratch the glass anyways )


Yeah, if you push hard enough, and work hard enough, you can scratch glass quite easily, even regular glass. Pressing a magnetite cleaner to the glass is one of the best ways, and the reason I don't use them anymore.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Thank you Daniel. It just sounds really overwhelming when you think about the weight of that substrate. But I guess it needs to be done. Sponges, scoops and large Rubbermade containers are on the shopping list.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Just updating the thread for the sake of anyone who wants to use cerium oxide in the future. We decided to still try to polish out the scratches. After spending one evening cleaning out the tank (fish and plants are currently in a bucket with the heater to keep the water warm), we spend last night buffing out the scratches. Only managed maybe an hour of work all together as the battery in the drill died, but the scratches are fading away. The progress is obvious and after tonight and possibly tomorrow night there is a good chance that all the scratched will be gone. There is no disruption to the glass that I can see. We took out all the substrate, so discus won;t have to be exposed to any of it at all.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

That's good to hear. Show us some pics of the finished product.


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## target (Apr 21, 2010)

Glad its working out for you. Definitely pics when done, and a before shot if you have it. Always been curious about removing scratches from glass as I have glass tables in my living room that my son has scratched.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

I haven't taken pictures of the scratches because imho they were pretty hard to see in the first place. However we marked the tank with a blue sharpie from the outside so I will take picture of the outline tonight just to give an idea about the area that required buffing. It seems that Starphire is significantly softer than glass, because we definitely did not expect to see the results in the first day of work and yet it was obvious that the process works after the first 15-30 minutes. So that is to say that with the glass with regular iron count it might be much more difficult to achieve this result. Also, the effect is the most magical on those scratches that could not be felt with the fingernail. In those spaces where the scratched are deeper we are prepared to just try to minimize them, but it is highly likely that they won't disappear. I will update with the pictures in the next couple of days.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

As I expected my camera refused to take shots at a close range so brace yourselves for crappy cell phone pics. The scratches are outlined with blue sharpie. Before:



























After:


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Would be good if I figured why the images are not linking from picasa...


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

giraffee said:


> Would be good if I figured why the images are not linking from picasa...


I use Picasa. Go to your photo, then:
1. Click "link to this photo" on the right.
2. "Select size" of pic from the pull down.
3. Check image only box.
4. Copy the "Embed image" link.
5. In advanced edit mode, click the "insert image icon on BCA.
6. Paste that link and you're done.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

To sum up - the job was labour intensive, but the effect is outstanding. Out of all the scratches, the only visible parts are less than centimeter long each. Those were the deep scratches that you really could feel with your nail. With the water in the tank you can just barely see see the two tiny scratches, whereas before you could clearly see all the vertical scratches (I couldn't see the horizontal scratch at the top when the water was in, and only noticed it when we emptied the tank)

All in all - this took one week of stress. All the fish survived living in a bucket, however the plants are looking very tired. Hopefully today we can finally transfer them over.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Haha...no problem. I just wanted to see the pics. Unfortunately, you're right, there's not much to see, but since you're happy with the work it must look good, and that's what counts. Now you'll have to start posting up a journal of the tank build.


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

Gary, after spending most of my week looking through your pleco thread I feel very inadequate with my photo skills ) Tank journal pictures taken by iPhone that's just sad )


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The iphone is actually a pretty good camera. If you search around you'll find a guy who did a model photoshoot with one just an iphone. The limitation is light. If you can get more overhead light into the tank you'll be able to shoot some decent photos.


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## oakley1984 (Oct 10, 2010)

algae magnets are always trouble, the best algae scrubber is your hand!


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## giraffee (Mar 28, 2011)

We haven't actually bought anything instead of the dreaded magnet.... Hand it is for now.


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