# Raising Discus



## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

I recall as a child near 20 years ago my mother having a tank with some Discus in it and just recently have setup a tank for the grow out contest put on by Rick. I'm enjoying raising the discus but have some questions/concerns.

Where ever you go for information regarding Discus including these forums you have people talking about the quality of discus. I can understand the stressing of the quality and why they should be purchased from a reputable source such as CAF(Rick). Comments such as malformed ( short gilled for example ) discus being low quality and should be culled ect. are also understandable to keep the quality. I do see a need/place for lower quality discus such as for first timer discus keepers to get used to them, people who want a good looking fish but maybe unable to afford the higher quality and so on and in fact when my son is older I just may get him some of his own to take care of this way. Most people who would see them would not even notice the difference. My biggest question though is why does everyone stress so much on the quality of the discus but yet are willing to pretty much dope their discus to be the biggest most colourful they can get with side affect that they could become deformed because of the unnatural up bringing. Making your own food for the discus in my opinion is perfectly fine, sure its a blend of things that wouldn't be found naturally that way but there is a possibility that the discus may eat all ingredient in their natural habita that people put in their blends of food. My concern is when I see people talking about giving kool-aid, multi-vitamins and so on that would have absolutely no chance of being found in nature to their fish to make them grow, or help with colours. Is this something that is common practice with the breeders that us the end consumer is buying? I know for myself I will have to re-evaluate keeping discus if this is something the breeders, our source of these beautiful fish, are doing. If I were to buy a discus from someone on this forum and found out they had raised it this way, for the price we pay for these beautiful fish, I would be rather upset. We don't do it for our cardinal tetra's and so on so why should it be done for Discus?


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Speaking from my personal experience, I have had two batches of discus. The prices were actually not very different. 

My first batch came from a member here who was selling them for $15 each for 2" size. I went to this seller becasue I had to be in metrotown and he was closed by. I had no idea what I was doing. I also had no idea what to look for when selecting discus. I placed them in a CO2 planted tank for I think 1 or 2 days then removed them and put them in a barebottom tank. They spent all their time hiding, turned very dark and became really sick with white long staff coming out from them. Their fins were covered with slims. They would not eat. Their gills were moving very fast, and they were very listless. I stayed up all night and did lots of research on medications and try different stuff to try to save them. Cost me quite a bit of money, agony, time, and frustration during that short period of time--in the end they all died.

I was going to quit but thanks to Rick of CAF I decided to give this another try. I came into this really worried and scared based on my first experience but Rick kept guiding me and helping me. I always felt that something bad was going to happen to these little discus and I was really paranoid but Rick was being very patient with me

My second experience has been very enjoyable, smooth, and less trouble than my first, eventhough my second batch of discus were even smaller than my first.

I did not have to stay up all night trying to see/hope if they would eat; I never have to go buy any medication (not even salt); I have no need to research what kind of sickness my discus might be having. Whenver I had problems or qustions I could just ask Rick and he would give me an answer very promptly. Now, all I really do is to change the water and feed them regularly.

It is a much more enjoyable experience and most importantly, after all the water changes and feedinsg I know I can have some decent looking discus that I would be proud of. While if I had purchased some culls, even if I could keep them alive, I dont think they would look even half as good. I believe a lot of it is genetic and also the amount of care they receive as juvies, which is not really something I can change.

I do not know enough about discus to comment or judge anyone. All I can say is that based on my own personal experience, there is a hugh difference in which seller you buy from and what kind of quality you get. In the long run, the price difference is not really that much compared to your expenses on medication, time and agony in taking care of sick discus, and the replacement cost after said discus die.

I agree to start cheap when you start. But by cheap I mean decent discus rather than show quality. i.e. instead of getting blue knight juvies from Wayne Ng for $100 each may be buy some juvies from Rick for $30 each or so. Buying a "low quality" discus can be a very disappointing experience (which happened to me) and it could certainly discourages someone from enjoying discus keeping.

About what they are fed, I believe it is just because when they are young they really need to eat well or else they would be stunned and miss their chance to grow to their full beauty. I dont think they feed kool aids as that is just artificial colour, sugar and favors but I could be wrong.

It is my understanding that discus breeders would feed and care for their discus to their full beauty then breed them with nice strains to get even better looking discus in order to improve on the strain so we can have more beautiful discus to keep. This is how the strains can be preserved and improved. In that sense I agree culls should not be sold. But that is just my own opinion.

Just my 2 cents.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

No one uses koolaid. That was a joke. No one uses hormones or anything else harmful who raise. The only people who use hormones are some fish farms selling lower quality discus to petshops. 
That does harm and unfortunately the small brightly colored ones at some petshops are what sell as beginners don't realize the difference. They go for colour. 
It used to be more common practise at farms in Asia but now you can order non hormoned. More farms are getting away from that as it's not acceptable practise. 
As for vitamins that is just adding what the fish need as they don't get them naturally in a closed system the way they would in nature. All fish food is made with vitamins etc commercially. Discus require more protein than most fish to grow well hence the beef heart . I myself don't use it anymore since the availability of Australian fdbw. My fish do very well on those and omega one flake food. 
Colour enhancere are in most foods also. As again in nature different foods would help with colour. Our domestic fish aren't grazing on krill and algaes and live bugs etc. an example is flamingos . In nature they are pink. In captivity they are white. There's a natural food they eat that makes them pink. Best way to ensure they are getting the vitamins they need is to give a varied diet. . 
yes some of us want higher quality fish as we have been keeping discus for a long time. Many years and want beautiful well raised discus for display. It's also a accomplishment to succeed in healthy well grown discus. 99 percent of shape and size is due to care. 
Also it takes as much food, time and care to raise a lower quality discus as a higher grade one. 
If you get from Rick you are starting off with healthy fish and have a better chance and experience then getting unhealthy discus and having a bad experience and getting discouraged. 
There's lower costing strains you can get for starting. But your best to start with un complimised health. 
If you go to forum.simplydiscus.com and go to beginners section and look at the thread that says what not to buy you will have a better understanding of what some people end up with and try save to no avail. 
There's nothing wrong with getting a fish with short gill plates to practise on other than the person who bred them didn't manage to provide the best water conditions. It also impacts on their reputation in the end. Bad experiences with a breeder travels far faster then good experiences. All breeders or people in business need to take care of their reputations. 
I myself wouldn't sell them. I may give thm away...as I can't sell something I wouldn't want myself. Someone buys, then says I got them from April...they don't say the part I got them cheap as they were defective.people just hear April sold sick or poor quality discus. 
It's the same for a any fish or pet .


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Fish rookie said:


> Speaking from my personal experience, I have had two batches of discus. The prices were actually not very different.
> 
> My first batch came from a member here who was selling them for $15 each for 2" size. I went to this seller becasue I had to be in metrotown and he was closed by. I had no idea what I was doing. I also had no idea what to look for when selecting discus. I placed them in a CO2 planted tank for I think 1 or 2 days then removed them and put them in a barebottom tank. They spent all their time hiding, turned very dark and became really sick with white long staff coming out from them. Their fins were covered with slims. They would not eat. Their gills were moving very fast, and they were very listless. I stayed up all night and did lots of research on medications and try different stuff to try to save them. Cost me quite a bit of money, agony, time, and frustration during that short period of time--in the end they all died.
> 
> ...


I started this thread more with the intention of the "doping" of the Discus. You don't need to dope them to make their grow to their full beauty. As for the rest of what you said, I don't intend for this to be about comparing getting "lower" quality discus and higher quality discus. In the end its all about the care you give them if you enjoy them, they are healthy and happy, you've done what you are supposed to. Copper in hot water tank nearly killed your 2nd batch, it could of been what did the first batch in not the source/quality.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

April said:


> No one uses koolaid. That was a joke. No one uses hormones or anything else harmful who raise. The only people who use hormones are some fish farms selling lower quality discus to petshops.
> That does harm and unfortunately the small brightly colored ones at some petshops are what sell as beginners don't realize the difference. They go for colour.
> It used to be more common practise at farms in Asia but now you can order non hormoned. More farms are getting away from that as it's not acceptable practise.
> As for vitamins that is just adding what the fish need as they don't get them naturally in a closed system the way they would in nature. All fish food is made with vitamins etc commercially. Discus require more protein than most fish to grow well hence the beef heart . I myself don't use it anymore since the availability of Australian fdbw. My fish do very well on those and omega one flake food.
> ...


Thanks April, Its good to know that the breeders are/have moved away from hormoned fish. I completely agree the best way to get the vitamins is to feed a varied diet of foods, I feed 2 types of food a day and change the 2nd type all the time to make sure they are getting more then just the Australian FDBW and more of a variety. Feeding vitamins that are meant for humans to a fish just because the fish can take it is a whole different thing, to me it shows a lack in proper care and a focus on making the most money by having it as big and as colourful as possible. Fish foods do contain colour enhancers and so on like you say, people shouldn't need to enhance them more then that


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Yes, copper was possible and that is what I thought too at the time. But my discus from Rick never poo long white string and had slims all over their fins the way they did with my first batch. They also did not have rapid breathing. My first batch of discus would not eat and spent all their time hiding since day 1; my discus from Rick ate like pigs in 30 minutes after they arrived.

Also, once Rick heard of my problem he agreed to take my discus back and looked after them while I sorted things out. I also feel that, in hindsight, I was a bit paranoid with my water and all that back in those days based on my first bad experience. I might have been a bit over analysising things in the beginning, and using DI water was probably not needed. Because it was such a nightmare with my first batch I got the wrong idea that they were extremely fragile and was too scare of making any mistake. Now, I dont worry about any of those any more. Like I said, I just change the water and feed them. It was a learning curve for me and I am so glad I met Rick and had the pleasure of learning how to properly raise discus from him.

Regardless of the reason, my point was that in my own experience buying from Rick was a much better experience and the cheaper discus did not turn out to be cheaper at all. Facts.

I am only trying to share my experience because you said you may think about buying some discus for your son to keep.

I do not know what you mean by "doping"? Do you mean feeding a well balanced diet to your fish is doping? If that is what you mean then I believe you need to dope them to make them grow to their full beauty.

We take vitamin and all sorts of supplments to keep ourselves healthy. Do you want to give your children all that you can afford to make them grow up healthy and strong? I think it is the same mentality with some discus keepers/breeders.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

No one is "doping". Just trying to give the best food for health and growth. Believe me discus won't eat if They don't like or it's affecting their health. They shut down. 
I've never heard of koolaid being used and I'm sure it was a joke.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Fish rookie said:


> We take vitamin and all sorts of supplments to keep ourselves healthy. Do you want to give your children all that you can afford to make them grow up healthy and strong? I think it is the same mentality with some discus keepers/breeders.


We give our kids vitamins because we don't feed them the balanced diet they require to have the nutrients they require, if we fed ourselves properly, we wouldn't require the vitamins to make up for what we aren't eating. With fish is it the same? Don't give them a balanced diet, make up for it by giving them vitamins... we treat out pleco's pretty good giving them vegetables and so on to chew on to help them have the varied diet they require.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

April said:


> No one is "doping". Just trying to give the best food for health and growth. Believe me discus won't eat if They don't like or it's affecting their health. They shut down.
> I've never heard of koolaid being used and I'm sure it was a joke.


I guess I shouldn't use the word doping as it gives idea of say steroid use when talking about "safe" vitamins meant for humans being given to discus. Providing the best food for your discus is great and what they deserve, vitamins meant for human consumption because they aren't getting the best food for a varied diet is different though. In my opinion, which could be completely wrong or out of line with everyone else, a fish that you have to give vitamins to because you aren't giving it a proper diet, is a fish that person should not have and definitely a fish that should not be sold.

As for the koolaid, I had read it awhile back somewhere else and I read it more recently on this forum as well. If the post on this forum was sarcasm/joke it didn't come off that way, and trust me I know my sarcasm =)


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

There's a very good read/post(Whats your personal philosophy on Discus Keeping/hope i got that right) on this topic started by Discus Paul a member here, and chimed in by other seasoned discus keepers that will answer most questions.Worth a read,easy search in Freshwater Chat.Don't know why it didn't become a Sticky


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Luke78 said:


> There's a very good read/post(Whats your personal philosophy on Discus Keeping/hope i got that right) on this topic started by Discus Paul a member here, and chimed in by other seasoned discus keepers that will answer most questions.Worth a read,easy search in Freshwater Chat.Don't know why it didn't a Sticky


http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...our-personal-philosophy-discus-keeping-30336/


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

That was the thread which got me really interested in discus... 
I took a wrong turn at the fork after that so to speak...LOL
Re-read what I said I am very suprised how much I have changed regarding my view on discus and planted tank.
Thanks for re-posting the link to this thread.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

I would of thought a few more people would of chimed in on this. Guess its just not as a concern as I've made it out to be in my own mind...

That mentioned thread above, the only thing it doesn't cover it seems is this topic of using vitamins.

Out of curiosity, discus who are raised on human vitamins, is there side affects? If someone was to buy one from someone who was giving them to their discus to make them prematurely big and beautiful and didn't continue this is the fish going to be the same with the new owner? For me I see a huge possibility that as soon as the new owner takes the fish in, the change in what is being given to them for food could lead to a bad out come.

Yes I understand fish food contains vitamins, these vitamin combinations and use are I presume scientifically backed up and properly applied and regulated.

Its good to know that breeders don't give their fish vitamins because I'd wonder if they would have to change them to prenatal vitamins during spawning because you know, they are good for women before and during pregnancy, so they must be good for discus as well during the same time.... whole idea of giving vitamins made for us in the way that is being talked about here just doesn't sit with me well and I will now ask anyone who I buy fish from if they've done this. I will walk away if I don't get the right answer and they can be sure to they will get a wonderful review about fish they sell and if I find out I've been lied to, they wont be happy with the outcome.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Wayne Ng is a very well known discus breeder and discus show judge as well as winner of many trophies.

His discus are not "prematurely big and beautiful" and he does not feed them vitamin because he is not feeding them a well balanced diet I am sure. His fish are very expensive and sort after worldwide. You dont build a reputation he has by not providing your discus with the best care possible. If he recommends using babies vitamin I would say it must be fine.

Actually, if someone tells me they fed their discus babies vitamin I would feel that they are taking very good care of their discus by making sure that they get all the nutrients they need.

I would be more concerned with beefheart than babie's vitamin. 

I have never heard of any ill effect with feeding vitamin to fish, babies or fish--which are both just vitamins. Interestingly, from your previous post, you have either --although you seem to believe that it is really bad.

I think it is fine. It is certainly not doping and is not like hormone or aritficially color enhancer. 

After you buy some discus, if you change to an inferior diet or give them worse care then they will likely look as good and/or stay as healthy but that is your fault.

Do you really believe some people feed their discus Kool Aid?

How do you figure that it could make discus look better?

It will make the water very colourful that is for sure. LOL


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Beef heart naturally contains a lot of nutrients including iron, b vitamins, zinc and a lot of others, there should be no need for adding a man made vitamin to the mix unless they aren't given them a full varied diet.

Why you mention Wayne Ng as he seems to raise his discus without the use of vitamins and they are high quality, which lends to my point, why do people need to give vitamins. I've also seen no where that he has stated online, or anyone saying he had stated that he recommends using vitamins. Maybe theres someone with a book of his who can give a quote of that, but usually if you can't find it online it might not have actually been said. In fact this lends to the whole point of what I'm getting at, if someone can be successful and NOT give vitamins, give the discus the happy, healthy lives they deserve, then why would you need to use artificial vitamins that are designed for 2 legged people.

As for kool-aid, I think I've stated what I've read in a previous post, no need to bring that up again. People do weird things with their fish, if someone recommended to you that its a excellent source of something, I'm sure you'd jump right on it to try it.

Inferior diet... If someone is giving them access to the same food that 99% of people feed their discus, and you purchase something from the 1% of those people who will try anything with their fish.... is it your own fault still especially if you're were not told the full story of how they were raised?



Fish rookie said:


> Wayne Ng is a very well known discus breeder and discus show judge as well as winner of many trophies.
> 
> His discus are not "prematurely big and beautiful" and he does not feed them vitamin because he is not feeding them a well balanced diet I am sure. His fish are very expensive and sort after worldwide. You dont build a reputation he has by not providing your discus with the best care possible. If he recommends using babies vitamin I would say it must be fine.
> 
> ...


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## Canadian_Aqua_Farm (Apr 21, 2010)

Unfortunately I can't offer any first hand experience as I don't use vitamin supplements but I find it hard to believe that they would create faster growth or better colours. It seems like a popular thing for hobbyists to add to their home made food probably with the thought of trying to create a balanced diet or improve the overall health of their fish. In my experience discus can extract everything they need from aquatic foods such as black worms, blood worms, brine shrimp, seafood etc. There is no need to add anything extra.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

For the record, I do not add any additional vitamin to my discus's diet either. I only follow Rick's suggestion and feed them Australian black worm, brine shrimps, and bloodworm; although I also feed mine a seafood mix (that I have asked Rick about) which consists of mainly fresh fish and prawns (sw)--no vitamin intended for human was added. 

I do not consider it a bad or harmful practise to feed baby's vitamin but becasue I am feeding mine with so many different foods I just do not feel that I need to add anything else--plus I am lazy.


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## seanyuki (Apr 22, 2010)

I also use vitamins in my homemade food for my discus.......vitamins designed for discus like Pro Growth(juvies) & Pro More(adults)......most commercial food has the necessary vitamin,enhancers & ingredients to give the discus a proper diet......for me I make my own homemade foods and also feed Aust FDBW hence I need to add vitamins/supplements in my mixture.

my homemade recipe is as flws.

minced turkey breasts(growth)
shrimp powder(for enhancement)
nori powder(for enhancement)
calcium powder(bone structure)
Pro Growth Vitamins(for juvies)
or
Pro More Vitamins(adults)

just sharing my own experience.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

seanyuki said:


> I also use vitamins in my homemade food for my discus.......vitamins designed for discus like Pro Growth(juvies) & Pro More(adults)......most commercial food has the necessary vitamin,enhancers & ingredients to give the discus a proper diet......for me I make my own homemade foods and also feed Aust FDBW hence I need to add vitamins/supplements in my mixture.
> 
> my homemade recipe is as flws.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post Francis, I think the part that should be stressed about the vitamins you're using is they are "designed for discus" and not that they are "designed for children, I've used them on discus and they seem fine"


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## seanyuki (Apr 22, 2010)

Both products were designed by Andrew Soh for discus.

Pro Growth ingredients as flws
Pro-Growth is a well formulated supplement for discus of all ages.

• Promotes appetite
• Promotes growth/bulk (not a growth hormone)
• Ensures maximum size potential
• Ensures total well-being of your culture
• An immune booster
• An antioxidant
• A liver detoxifier

Vitamin A - Vitamin D3 - Vitamin E - Vitamin K - Vitamin B1 - Vitamin B2 - Vitamin B3 - Vitamin B5 - Vitamin B6 - Vitamin B7 - Vitamin B9 - Vitamin B12 - Amino Acids - Minerals

Pro More

• Heightens the spawning urge and stimulates the production gametes in both sexes
• Help discus reach its production potential
• Primed gametes. Eggs will be more nourished resulting in better development
• Primed milt means penetration efficiency resulting in more successful fertilization
• If Pro-More is added to the brooders' diet, the consistency of spawn and success rate will be maintained

Vitamin A - Vitamin D3 - Vitamin E - Vitamin K - Vitamin B1 - Vitamin B2 - Vitamin B3 - Vitamin B5 - Vitamin B6 - Vitamin B7 - Vitamin B9 - Vitamin B12 - Amino Acids - Minerals

with the permission from Andrew Soh to post the above articles.



kacairns said:


> Thanks for the post Francis, I think the part that should be stressed about the vitamins you're using is they are "designed for discus" and not that they are "designed for children, I've used them on discus and they seem fine"


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I suspect babies/children vitamin was suggested by Wayne Ng because only traces are needed, and that they are supposed to contain more or less the same variety as what fish needs. It is just one formula to make a staple food for discus. From looking at his award winning discus it is obviously working very well.  Many commerical pet food has their own forumla calling for vitamins and I will not be the least bit suprised if human vitamins were used. 
Mixing human vitamin into fish food is not "doping." As Rick has pointed out, vitamin alone should not be able to produce more colour or adnormal growth.
Until I see documented proof I am afraid I cannot be convinced that human vitamin as suggested in Wayne Ng's forumula is harmful to discus. His discus, if anything, look very healthy, robust, and beautiful--more so than most I have seen. 
So far, I have not seen any proof put forward by anyone saying that children vitamin added in the amount suggested by Wayne Ng can cause any sort of health problem in discus, so my opinion will stay.
Also, I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that vitamin is used only because the owner fails to feed his discus a balanced diet. Many breeders and discus experts feed their discus supplements. A good example is the Andrew Soh supplements as pointed out by Francis with his post above.
I am just a newbie to discus. Personally, I would not try to attack or judge suggestion made by a discus expert such as Wayne Ng without knowing what I am talking about. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Ummm the thing about Andrew Soh's vitamins as I understand, they weren't developed with the intent of being a additive to grow the fish bigger ect. They were developed to try and prevent (a) disease and the benefits of them were just a result of the mixture and these were not just given to discus during their testing.

Once again the only thing I can find about Wayne Ng unless its in his book regarding what he feeds his discus is a shrimp/beef heart and that is from a interview with him and nothing about adding childrens vitamins or so on. The posts regarding childrens vitamins are all from 2/3rd hand information saying they were given this recipe from someone else who told them that this is what he uses. Further more, even if he does use childrens vitamins, last time I checked there was more then 1 brand and type of childrens vitamins and what we have here, or any other country is not the same as to what is over there.

You can have your two cents back because as you say, you're just a newbie, and if I'm unable to attack or judge ( not exactly sure how I've done that, especially now I've had to repeat myself twice, and the person who brought the name Wayne Ng into the conversation and keeps mentioning it, is you ), I'm sure you aren't the one qualified to defend anything.

I think Rick's comment on this was bang



Fish rookie said:


> I suspect babies/children vitamin was suggested by Wayne Ng because only traces are needed, and that they are supposed to contain more or less the same variety as what fish needs. It is just one formula to make a staple food for discus. From looking at his award winning discus it is obviously working very well.  Many commerical pet food has their own forumla calling for vitamins and I will not be the least bit suprised if human vitamins were used.
> Mixing human vitamin into fish food is not "doping." As Rick has pointed out, vitamin alone should not be able to produce more colour or adnormal growth.
> Until I see documented proof I am afraid I cannot be convinced that human vitamin as suggested in Wayne Ng's forumula is harmful to discus. His discus, if anything, look very healthy, robust, and beautiful--more so than most I have seen.
> So far, I have not seen any proof put forward by anyone saying that children vitamin added in the amount suggested by Wayne Ng can cause any sort of health problem in discus, so my opinion will stay.
> ...


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

You can debate this till the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding. Many have different recipes and some have had great success some haven't. Some keep up with their water quality some don't. Food, routine and water quality go hand in hand. 
I've been reading different people's recipes , talked to top breeders around the world. Talked to North American successful breeders , talked to Jim quarles and he gave me his secret that did well for him. I've tried them all. Some grow em fast ,or too fast and you get the double chin. Some grow slow and sure...and also alot goes with how many minerals are in the local water source. Ours has hardly any. 
There are also fish vitamins you can use as in kent Zoe vitamins . I've added that. 
Another main success key is consistency. Same feeding schedule daily . Same wc routine etc. 
I myself now only use fdbw from Australia and omega flake and Tetra bits now. My fish are already grown. 
If you feed mixes with bh etc you will have to do more wcs. 
Size is also a combination of care , genetics and food. Also strain. Yellows and albinos and reds grow much slower and tend to stay smaller. Ie. San marah , ghost varieties, snow whites, 
Stendker has jumbos. They feed bh and large wcs but its also genetics. Years ago there were alot more jumbos but they are lazy breeders. Most farms don't use jumbos for breeding. The small females and males are more prolific. 
The whole challenge of discus is growing beautiful healthy fish that please you the owner. And of course we like to show our fish in photos and when someone sees a nice group of discus the first question is nice...what do you feed them? 
So it's always going to be a debate. 
In the end..there is ricks grow out contest going on and that's the whole idea is to compare growth and health and success with alot trying different methods. A learning process. 
By the way I also use Andrews pro grow and pro more mixes at times and I also bought tony tans foods and vitamins etc etc .


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

April said:


> You can debate this till the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding. Many have different recipes and some have had great success some haven't. Some keep up with their water quality some don't. Food, routine and water quality go hand in hand.
> I've been reading different people's recipes , talked to top breeders around the world. Talked to North American successful breeders , talked to Jim quarles and he gave me his secret that did well for him. I've tried them all. Some grow em fast ,or too fast and you get the double chin. Some grow slow and sure...and also alot goes with how many minerals are in the local water source. Ours has hardly any.
> There are also fish vitamins you can use as in kent Zoe vitamins . I've added that.
> Another main success key is consistency. Same feeding schedule daily . Same wc routine etc.
> ...


Agreed on the debating. Its always interesting through when one of the people in the debate keeps saying one thing in one post and complete opposite in the next as well as claiming the other person is saying/doing things they aren't.... Yes Fish Rookie, read your first post where you bring up Wayne Ng and state he doesn't use vitamins, then your second post where you bring him up again saying he does. It makes it hard to respond to someone when your opinion/information changes post to post like that.

As for vitamins... people who want to use stuff that is developed, tested and sold specifically for fish, ie pro-grow and so on that is fine by me... people who want to risk giving their fish something developed for humans can go right ahead as well, just keep the fish to yourself so if anything does develop with them that you caused you wont get a pissed off person calling you out on your fish.

With that said my ultimate opinion is that I think proof is in the pudding and they shouldn't be needed as Rick has mentioned from his experience and April has also had success with and without their use. I think this should of ended at Ricks post or no responses after seanyuki, but I do like the fact that you've given your experience with multiple different things as well as what breeders have told you they do in your reply and Thank you for that April.


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## seanyuki (Apr 22, 2010)

lol......when a discus is healthy of course it's will grow bigger and with his product and may much bigger and healthier........Andrew Soh's book....Discus Problems & Solutions Page 80 ......Pro Growth has these benefits.

1. promote appetite
2. promote growth
3. ensuring max size potential 
4. ensuring the total well being of your culture
5. an immune booster
6. an anitioxidant
7. a liver detoxifer

perhaps you may want to check any bad reviews in Simply Discus forum about Andrew Soh's product.



kacairns said:


> Ummm the thing about Andrew Soh's vitamins as I understand, they weren't developed with the intent of being a additive to grow the fish bigger ect. They were developed to try and prevent (a) disease and the benefits of them were just a result of the mixture and these were not just given to discus during their testing.
> 
> Once again the only thing I can find about Wayne Ng unless its in his book regarding what he feeds his discus is a shrimp/beef heart and that is from a interview with him and nothing about adding childrens vitamins or so on. The posts regarding childrens vitamins are all from 2/3rd hand information saying they were given this recipe from someone else who told them that this is what he uses. Further more, even if he does use childrens vitamins, last time I checked there was more then 1 brand and type of childrens vitamins and what we have here, or any other country is not the same as to what is over there.
> 
> ...


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

April,

If I may ask you, after talking to all the people that you have, and seen and tried that you have, what do you think is the best way to grow out a big and healthy juvie? I am just here to learn how to properly raise discus as I am just a newbie. Thank you for taking the time to share with us your expertise.

I have read that you mentioned routine, water quality and consistency. I am trying my best to do that right now, with the same amount of food fed at the same time daily, and peform my water changes at the same time every day. What I am interested in is other than these, is there any food you would recommend that in your opinion will enhance the colour and growth, and some other things one can do to make one's discus grow to its full beauty and potential?

I used to attend a lot of dog shows and have handled a few myself. I am by no means an expert, although I did get lucky and had best in show to show for. LOL. But anyway what I am trying to say is that a lot of dog breeders suggested to me to feed only a single dry balanced dog diet. I have seen very beautiful show dogs raised on only one single brand of dry dog food.

The idea is, as I understand it, that such dog food contains all the nutrients needed for the dog; while if you try to cook or prepare your own food you need to really try to get all those vitamins/minerals in your food on a daily basis. Some vitamin are water solutable and some fat solutable; some will decompose upon light, and some will be lost with boiling; some vitamin will be lost once the freshness of the food is lost...etc. So, it is not just about feeding a lot of food but also how you prepare such food to make sure you preserve all that is required. Feeding one brand with all those already integrated certainly make things easier, plus you can be rest assured that your dog get all that he/she needs with every feeding. Dry food is also much better in terms of dental care for dogs. Some breeders I knew like to cook their own food (I knew one who only fed raw meat lol), but they usually add some supplements to make sure that they do not miss anything for their beloved dogs (BTW, I have never heard anyone saying that human vitamin is bad for dogs) but these breeders are in the minority from what I have met.

Coming from this background, when I first started fish keeping I was quite suprised to see fish keepers spednign so much time to feed their fish such a large variety of "home made food." Is home made food better in some aspect than a high quality pellets (e.g. Omega One)?

I often wonder if I only feed my fish a few freeze dried foods (e.g. brine shrmp and black worm) will they be lacking certain vitamin/mineral especially because these food have been treated at a sub-zero temperature and processed (i.e. flash dried or freeze dried). It is because some vitamin in food will be lost when being treated. Even if raw shrimps and fish are used they most likley would lack some benefits that is to be found with greens such as algae in nature, isn't it?

Along this line of reasoning, even if someone feeds his fish with freeze dried black worm and freeze dried brine shrimps plus home cook food (without supplement), there may be some lackage in vitamin/mineral/nutrient in the diet compared to a really balanced optimum diet...is that possible?

If that is true, then I think to supplement with vitamin is only sensible and beneficial, isn't it?

On the other hand, if you can find all that your fish may need in one single food then feeding this one food should suffice to obtain optinum health, isn't it? Pellets meant for discus are supposed to contain all the nutrients needed, are they? But as you said the proof is in the pudding and breeders seem to enjoy making their own food and beefhearts seem to be the common choice.

The breeders in Malaysia, according to several videos that I have watched on youtube, said they feed their fish bloodworms, tubifex worms, and mussels. On simply, Forest said he adds seaweed to his beefheart diet. In his book, Andrew Soh said he adds his pro formula...

What is it in these home made food that dry discus pellets cannot provide?

If it is the only staple food used, I would think adding vitamin and mineral is the sensible thing to do because some vitamin could be lost in the preparation and storage of fish/prawn/beefheart.

About mineral content in our water, if we add calcium powder in our food, or serve food with a high salt content (brine shrimp) will the mineral dissolve in the water and increase the hardness?

Thank you very much.



April said:


> You can debate this till the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding. Many have different recipes and some have had great success some haven't. Some keep up with their water quality some don't. Food, routine and water quality go hand in hand.
> I've been reading different people's recipes , talked to top breeders around the world. Talked to North American successful breeders , talked to Jim quarles and he gave me his secret that did well for him. I've tried them all. Some grow em fast ,or too fast and you get the double chin. Some grow slow and sure...and also alot goes with how many minerals are in the local water source. Ours has hardly any.
> There are also fish vitamins you can use as in kent Zoe vitamins . I've added that.
> Another main success key is consistency. Same feeding schedule daily . Same wc routine etc.
> ...


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

How many times do I have to read your response before you stop editing it?

Since Francis didn't respond to my private message, I'm not sure what his intention of that last post was, to me it would seem as if he thinks I said pro-growth wasn't good or something along that line based on his post. Unfortunately he doesn't appear to have read what I've posted in response to him. He even quoted me thanking him for his original post and how they are meant for discus, and quoted me again saying that they were designed and tested on discus and other fish. Not sure why I'd have to go look for bad reviews on something that is obviously made for the fish nor what was funny besides him not reading what I posted.

As for you fish rookie, you can single out the parts that you are directing towards me instead of trying to hide them in what you're saying. Get your facts straight before you post so you don't have to modify your post 2 or 3 times before you're happy with it. Don't you have a betta you're trying to train to jump through hoops so you can have a big pay day in Hollywood?

I will say it again for the third time now in a little different way so I wont be fully repeating myself. Products, read FOOD/SUPPLEMENTS, developed, tested and made for discus ( or fish in general for that matter ) are good, if someone decides they can give their fish what they need from these foods, more power to them. When someone blindly starts telling people to go grab something out of the kitchen cupboard because they've been told it might help without any research/testing/standards behind it you're asking for trouble. You might not see that trouble now, you might not ever see it. If you do, all you have is yourself to blame


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

One of my closest most admired discus keeper and breeder is Rodney Lewis in Australia. His fish are amazing. He studies genetics, his fish are big and strong and healthy . No disease, no parasites, he can tell you the lineage of all his fish back quite a few generations. He gets up in the morning . Does his wcs, feeds the same times each day, feeds bh, some flke or pellet foods. Some fdbw and he adds ant eggs to his bh mix. There's plenty of ant eggs in oz. he puts bricks out..claps them..and tons of eggs. Super high in vitamins and protein. He also uses capsicum . (Red bell pepper) in Canada. Adds natural colour and vitamins. 
He sent me two shipments of discus. Some of the nicest discus I've had. He taught me alot. I've known him for over 15 years and I'd say he has been the most dedicated consistent breeder I know. Doesn't toot his own horn, just does his own thing. Consistent and dedicated. 
Jim quarles used isolate in his mix. 90 percent protein. He used that as his thickener. A small amount. 
Another breeder who has big beautiful discus is danziger discus farm in Israel. He only uses only tetra bits. But Israel has hard water. Think desert. The water comes from deep in the earth . Lots of time to absorb minerals. 
If you get a routine and you keep consistent and watch your discus for their behavior you wil do fine. 
It's the same for all animals. People who win shows with dogs or rabbits etc. measure the animals food, keep them watered, keep them clean and keep a feeding schedule. Same theories , different animals. I've done Rsbbit shows, raised yorkies, chickens etc etc. same theory. When I buy dog food I get a high quality with no cheap fillers . 
What kind of dogs did you show?


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

These might be articles written by the same Jim Quarles you're mentioning April. They are older articles but seem to be well written and thought out.

Vitamins
Proper Use


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks April.

I handled Shar Pei. 

I was very fortunate to have been given a beautiful Shar Pei puppy from a very dedicated breeder. I handled and trained that Shar Pei got lucky and won some best in show here and there. 

In the shows I met another champion breeder who offered me an English Bull Dog puppy but unfortunately I had to decline his generous offer. He wanted me to bring the dog to Canada to enter some shows and hopfully find a good mate and breed the bloodline here. It is one of those regretful moment I will always think about and regret. 

I used to take this shar pei to a basketball court and walked with him in a big circle again and again for a very long time many times a day so he would always look at me alertly during the show and would never walk too fast or slow. I would stopped and put him in his stance and fuss around his mouth, ear and so on. People would gave me a funny look but after a while they ignored me. LOL I also took him to some malls to get him used to the echo (this kind of trip usually ended with me being asked to leave with my dog by the securityLOL) since some shows could be held in indoor venues. LOL 

I also had a small female beagle which I trained for obedience. She was too tall and too long to be a show dog but was quite good with obedience training. She was also a very good swimmer. We never won though.

I also had a small maltese that was not good enough for show, a bit too big. I gave the maltese to a friend who had two Neapoitan Mastiff (a male and a female). You should see them together--the maltese is always the one walking in the front barking at other dogs while the two mastiff walk quietly in the back. LOL

I only fed my Shar Pei dry dog food with dog treats for training. I never fed can food or any wet food. I do add some supplements into his food (mainly fish oil and things like that to give his coat a nice glossy sheen). I spent lots of time with hiking and running on the beach (which I believe was good for better shape of the paws than walking and running on hardwood or concrete floor) with him, we had so much fun. He hated swimming though.  He was quite active and never seemed to have any problem. He did not have any eye or skin problem either, which is commonly found in show Shar Pei. 

Internet was not popular at all back then.  I learned all I learned through reading lots of books, common sense, and talking to other champion breeders and handlers. I just kept doing the same thing again and again, sort of like keeping discus. LOL

I have never tried show dog breeding.

A beautiful dog is a beauty to behold.

Discus keeping is kind of like that. It is a game of discipline. I think I am really enjoying discus keeping partly because it reminds me of my crazy days with the dogs when I was younger. LOL

I have never gone into show dog breeder so if I could breed with my discus one day it would make me really happy.

Have you tried to enter any discus show? Is there any local shows 

I really enjoy the stories you shared. Awesome! Hope you are not bored with mine. Thank you.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

"BTW, Fish rookie, you will receive more help if you start your own thread about your problem" and stop hijacking threads and posting what you wish on them unrelated


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## seanyuki (Apr 22, 2010)

Sorry bro if i have misinterpreted yr post......the late Jim Quarles two discus books are worth reading and use as a guide for keeping discus.....his second book Discus as a Hobby mentioned B-complex vitamins are the most important for discus plus having folic acid and vitamin E will benefit the fish also.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Yes, vitamin Bs are very important. They mostly work as enzymes to help with metablism and proper cell functions, not really about growing or colour enhancement directly. 

Since Vitamin B is water soluable, I suspect, and please correc tme if I am wrong, that it should be pretty safe as it would be hard to over adminstrate it to fish.

Sometimes vitamin Bs are labelled under names such as folic acid, biotin, riboflavin, thiamine..etc rather than B2, B9...etc.

Vitamin Bs are found in most unprocessed food in nature. Once food is processed they may have a much lower % of vitamin Bs. Therefore, in my humble opinion, adding the right amount of vitamin B supplement into discus food should help to boost the amount of vitamin B intake, unless you are already feeding a food with a balanced amount of vitamin supplement added.


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