# EMERGENCY!!! HELP: Sick Discus and Angelfish



## Smiladon

My Discus (which I recently acquired) seem to be sick.

They are very Dark in color and one of their fins seem to be stuck to their body. I am also beginning to see some patches in some of them.

Not sure whats wrong. Tried to call some Discus friends, but can't reach their phone.

Someone please suggest the proper medication. I will post pics if necessary.

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UPDATE Sept 15th.

I just noticed that one of my small Angelfish is dead. The male from my Angelfish pair has some kind of fungus growth on him and looks like he will only survive for max of 1-2 days.

All the other Discus are also sick --> dark and white stuff on them (including the new ones I got)

Please help. I have no clue whats wrong and no idea how to fix it.
I cant get any meds until tomorrow evening. What can I do now?

Images Below:


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## Smiladon

UPDATE:

I noticed that the temperature in the tank was low (lower in one side than the other). The Temperature is around 78F

I am assuming I need to get more water circulation or something similar to move the warmer water to the other side of the tank.

I changed the temperature setting in my ehiem heater to 84F and I will be adding some salt (1Tbsp/10g).

The tank is planted, so any other advice would be helpful.

Below is a picture of Discus (not mine) that looks similar but not as bad as the pic below.









DISCUS PLAGUE - SimplyDiscus
Is a Quarantine Tank Necessary

From reading the above, I am thinking that it could be a Columnaris problem.


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## ibenu

eek, that low a temp (it ccould should be up to 10 degrees more) Means they have been stressed and NOW are sick.... Get that temp up, plus daily water changes see where you are at then.. 
PIcs,
Temp
Nitrates
Ammonia
PH 

all those readings will help. 

But really I would say they are sick from wayyy too low a temp for sure... 
Too bad.. Did you have a heater malfunction? If only one side of tank was that cold then you have poor circulation and I imagine filtration also....


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## Smiladon

Lisa, it was my fault for the temperature. I had it at 78 for a long time before when I didn't keep any Discus. I then got a Discus from Anthony and he was doing great (he still is doing great), so I forgot that other Discus REQUIRE higher temperature.

I just realized the reason today and then I increased the temperature.

I did have a chat with a friend and he suggested that it is most likely just stress --> slime + darkness of color due to the low temperature.

I did increase the temp. to 84F (maybe I should increase to 90F?) and added 8 Tbsp of salt.

After about an hour of salt treatment, I fed them bloodworms and most of them were eating from my hand, but still a little skittish. 2 of them were hiding in the back and did not eat.

pH. 6.8
Didn't check Nitrates + Ammonia because I did an 80% WC 2 days ago, so the measurement would be useless anyways.

When I went to feed them, most of the Discus went back to normal color and ate, and then after a few minutes they went back to being dark. I also noticed one of them "shivering".

Pics Below:
Worst Guy in Tank:









2nd Worst (shivering sometimes):









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Same fish as above, after a few seconds - Normal Color:









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Another pic of the dark part (this one had some white stuff...maybe slime coat?)









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Angelfish Tail crimped looking









Notice the while splotch on the female angelfish...is this slime coat or something else? This is what caused me worry.









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Wider Shots of Tank:


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## Smiladon

-----
Dark at one second and normal the next for a few secs then dark again..









New BD:


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## Peterchow

Looks like your new discus are shocked & stressed from :

1) New environment from bare tank to planted tank with other inhabitants
2) PH fluctuation
3) Change in water temperature
4) Insecurity from a larger discus community to a smaller discus community. 

DISCUS ENJOY THEIR OWN TIGHT COMMUNITY WHETHER PLANTED OR NON PALNTED.

Just my two cents !!!!!


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## ibenu

You have to see that if half your tank has a different temp than rest poor circulation would inevitable = poor filtration. Dead zones are a bad thing by any account. Good luck getting them better, hope it all works out


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## Smiladon

Just an update. They look a little better now after the salt. I still see them being dark etc aka stressed out.

I did feed them again this evening and they ate from my hands again.

I think PeterChow hit the mark on this one. I am assuming the same as well.

Lisa, I put in a pre-filter in the tank earlier because I had Angelfish Fry in the tank. It is possible that the pre-filter is slowing the water circulation through the filter.

I am assuming that they will get better in time and this is mainly related to stress (due to my mistake of leaving the temp low).

I will update again if the discus go downwards.

Thank you all for your help and support


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## April

the cold water wouldve done it for sure. they get very quiet..off their food..flashing dark etc..id keep it at least at 84 to 86. 
they will be fine..maybe you also taxed your filter with the sudden surplus of new discus. 
they are strong..they should be able to take it. its not columnaris or they wouldnt be flashing dark and light. but bioload or dead spots would do it..or ph fluctuations.


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## Smiladon

Thanks for the tips April.

Today I did a 20% WC and replaced with "warm" water and then added 2 Tbsp salt again.

I also cleaned the filter (rinsed the sponges and dumped the crap filled water) and took away the pre-filter sponge, then I positioned the output hose on the side of the tank (instead of the back). This way the water circulation is increased.

I also hand fed them tonight and most of the fish ate...still had a few hiding in the back.


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## catgoldfish

Nice tank. I usually keep the temp at 86 degrees and when I do a water change the new water is always the same temp. Less stress the better. They look better now good work.


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## chillin

84 86 seems a good temp ,plants may not like the higher temp, unless are tolerant of higher temps i keep my 300 at 87 88 .discus are all thriving..lots of water changes and large filtering capacity helps ..the higher temp seems to ward off some of the health issues with discus ..they love warm water...chillin


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## Smiladon

thanks for the support guys.

The temperature is warm and stable now. The newest Discus I got (from bonsai dave) are doing great. The very first one I got from Anthony has been doing well the whole time, so nothing to say there...he is just an awesome rock solid discus.

The others are still dark and I notice more white stuff on them (slime?) today. Some of them ate and most of them were hiding in the back of the tank. I usually dont have time in the morning to hand feed them, but in the evenings I try my best to give everyone a chance at the food, but I cant reach the ones at the back


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## tony1928

I've seen people use a piece of pvc/abs pipe to target feed before. So maybe that would help you with reaching the back of your tank.


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## TCR

I almost never see my discus but when i do they are a nice orange


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## Smiladon

everything turned for worse now!!!

One small Angelfish dead and the male Angelfish has fungusy growth around him and looks like he can die anytime soon.

All discus are stressed out.

Only 2 fish seem to be ok in tank:
1. small black angelfish I got from april
2. Discus from Anthony.

Pics in first post. Someone please help!


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## Smiladon

I did a 25% water change (didnt add extra salt this time) and I moved the Male Angelfish to a 10gal tank.

He is already going sideways and upside down etc, so I dont expect him to survive 

I am really hoping that the other fish are ok.... They are not going to get any food for a few days to keep the water "clean"


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## MNP

Looks like a toxicity issue. Ammonia-nitrite. Note your planted are you dosing fertilizers. Seen similar with people using Excel with discus, rams, cories. May have inadvertently introduced something off your hands. Substrate may be sour depending on time since last overhaul.

Load filters full of carbon (100%) and change 10% water (double dosed with Aquel) daily for 5 days. If fish bounce back, overhaul tank.


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## jiang604

hmmm, looks like discus plague to me. I've had it happen to mine before right after I found out it had parasites. Aquaworld Aquarium - Discus Plague It can spread to angelfish too http://aquaria2.ru/node/2350

I've found that quarantining the fish and using acriflavin plus ( i think i spelled it right) does work and speed up recovery. BUT this med is essentially sterilizing the fish.

If you want. You can come by my parents place and take the acriflavin plus. I have 1/3 a bottle left which treats about 40 gallons. PM me if need.


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## seanyuki

Just a few questions
did you check your water parameters?
did you quarantine the new arrival b4 adding to the main tank?
are you medicating all the sick fish in the main tank or already transferred them to the hospital tank.?.....what medication are you using now?....some meds cannot be mixed?

And if it's probably pathogen related......do a 100% water change and add water conditioner like Prime.....ensure a good flow of aeration and no filtration.
One hour after water changes and if no improvements and may want to use either one of these.....(1) Potassium Permanganate bath for 24 hours....(2)Formalin 30 minutes bath and do another 100% water changes.....(3)Malachite Green with no light on since it's light sensitive


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## TCR

salt check?
water @ 84?
melafix and remove the carbon?

also what is your ph?

it looks like finrot to me (Ive seen this before on my angels too)

http://www.cichlidforums.com/showthread.php?t=29864


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## Smiladon

MNP said:


> Looks like a toxicity issue. Ammonia-nitrite. Note your planted are you dosing fertilizers. Seen similar with people using Excel with discus, rams, cories. May have inadvertently introduced something off your hands. Substrate may be sour depending on time since last overhaul.
> 
> Load filters full of carbon (100%) and change 10% water (double dosed with Aquel) daily for 5 days. If fish bounce back, overhaul tank.


I tested the water yesterday night before doing the 25% water change and I noticed trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite. Nitrate was also low (which could also mean something is wrong)

ammonia: 0.4
nitrite: 0.3
nitrate: 5

I haven't dozed excel after I got Discus.



jiang604 said:


> hmmm, looks like discus plague to me. I've had it happen to mine before right after I found out it had parasites. Aquaworld Aquarium - Discus Plague It can spread to angelfish too Beware the Discus Plague | Aquaria2.ru
> 
> I've found that quarantining the fish and using acriflavin plus ( i think i spelled it right) does work and speed up recovery. BUT this med is essentially sterilizing the fish.
> 
> If you want. You can come by my parents place and take the acriflavin plus. I have 1/3 a bottle left which treats about 40 gallons. PM me if need.


I did read through this before. I am really hoping this is not the case. If it is confirmed, then I will definitely contact you.



seanyuki said:


> Just a few questions
> did you check your water parameters?
> did you quarantine the new arrival b4 adding to the main tank?
> are you medicating all the sick fish in the main tank or already transferred them to the hospital tank.?.....what medication are you using now?....some meds cannot be mixed?
> 
> And if it's probably pathogen related......do a 100% water change and add water conditioner like Prime.....ensure a good flow of aeration and no filtration.
> One hour after water changes and if no improvements and may want to use either one of these.....(1) Potassium Permanganate bath for 24 hours....(2)Formalin 30 minutes bath and do another 100% water changes.....(3)Malachite Green with no light on since it's light sensitive


Water Params:
ammonia: 0.4
nitrite: 0.3
nitrate: 5

quarantine: No

Medication: warmer temp 84F and salt in main tank (never used any other meds in my fish experience other than PP)

Hospital tank:
Male Angelfish with the fungus is in a 10g tank, but no filter or heater (room is warm enough and I am going to buy a new heater tonight from KingEds. Also I have an extra established filter in my 10Gal fry tank that I will be moving to the 10Gal tank.



TCR said:


> salt check?
> water @ 84?
> melafix and remove the carbon?
> 
> also what is your ph?
> 
> it looks like finrot to me (Ive seen this before on my angels too)
> 
> Discus parasite problem, need help!! - Cichlid Forums


I did notice minute finrot symptoms in the albino gold discus (pics in first post).

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What should I do now?
Should I setup a brand new 75Gallon tank and move all the Discus in there and give them a PP bath? Would this solve the issue? Its the same as sterilizing the fish and it will stress them out...I might even loose the weakest ones...

If I can do this, then I will have the opportunity to throw away all the plants (since they will be infected) and PP the main tank and filter (fishless) to sterilize it.

Let me know guys....


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## ibenu

Ammonia and nitrite leads me to believe you do not have a cycled aquarium. NO ammonia should be resent and is reputed to be the #1 killer of tropical fish .

Readings are at PPM? 

I would do 100% fresh water 86-88 degrees and good aeration with sponges, Prime or what have you for chlorine/chloramine removal, along with daily 60-85 % water changes. I have not had discus that were as sick as your sound but the above has brought back some very ragged finned skinny fish... 

If there is someone you could bring them too that has more experience with discus than yourself that might be the thing to do at this point .. Hope they all make it


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## O.C.D Fishies

I have 3 ammonia remover filter media if you would like them. They are just the small size ones. Let me know I am on clark and broadway.


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## TCR

how old it your tank?


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## cichlid

non cycled tanks are crazy, I have a tank 40 Gallon, been set up for about 2 months now, and because i was a brand new tank, it can be hard, Im just glad they are hardy fish, we lost two, one to stress, the other to a nitrate spike, we had to fix the problem quick, and we now add salt regularly, they seem to be much healthier. 

its amazing how a cycled tank makes things soo much easier.


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## April

dont do pp and then formalin. do heavy salt. a couple cups throw in there.
usually the healthy discus is the carrier..hence..never got sick. they can carry for a long time..and immune as they had it once upon a time. 
as ibenu said..do a large wc..and lots of salt . you shouldnt have any ammonia or nitrites.
its not plague..thats a very broad term. they called it plague as they didnt know what it is. theres many kinds of pathogens, viral, bacterial, fungal., parasitic that attack gills. each place has immnuities for that farm..and mixing can cause issues. 
use prime..nothing else. some chlorine removers can crash ph. it could be your ph crashed..did you check the ph? that could cause slime coat splotches and cloudy eyes. 
also..pigeons dont show slime coat..but still could be not happy.


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## April

dont do pp. if its from ammonia and ph crash..forget pp. do huge amounts of salt after your total wc. dont feed..whatever you do. it will just cause more ammonia problems. if anything..get some cycled sponge to add to your filter. 
i dont think its socalled plague..id say its an ammonia spike as you added alot of fish in a short time and your filter isnt keeping up. or you rinsed it too much.


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## Smiladon

ibenu said:


> Ammonia and nitrite leads me to believe you do not have a cycled aquarium. NO ammonia should be resent and is reputed to be the #1 killer of tropical fish .
> 
> Readings are at PPM?
> 
> I would do 100% fresh water 86-88 degrees and good aeration with sponges, Prime or what have you for chlorine/chloramine removal, along with daily 60-85 % water changes. I have not had discus that were as sick as your sound but the above has brought back some very ragged finned skinny fish...
> 
> If there is someone you could bring them too that has more experience with discus than yourself that might be the thing to do at this point .. Hope they all make it


I think the ammonia and nitrite trace is because of left over food from the past few days.
The readings are all PPM.
This tank has been running for more than a year and my Angelfish Pair used to breed in this tank every 2-3 weeks (until before I got the new fish -aka Discus).

I am assuming the problem is that I forgot to raise the temperature when I got Discus from April and that is the starting point...



TCR said:


> how old it your tank?


14 - 15 months with sponge filter and Rena XP3 filter + loads of plants.



aprils aquarium said:


> dont do pp. if its from ammonia and ph crash..forget pp. do huge amounts of salt after your total wc. dont feed..whatever you do. it will just cause more ammonia problems. if anything..get some cycled sponge to add to your filter.
> i dont think its socalled plague..id say its an ammonia spike as you added alot of fish in a short time and your filter isnt keeping up. or you rinsed it too much.


After I came back from work, I noticed my Angelfish (male) dead. He does seem to have a wound in his back (no idea what caused it) and the fungus was growing around it.

I didn't feed them today and the lights were off too. The Discus that were hiding in the back normally were in the middle of tank today evening. Not as dark as before. Not sure if this is something temporary or not...

April,
How long should I not feed for? and how much salt is "huge amount" Should I stick with 1 Tbsp per 10Gallon or should I put more salt?


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## April

DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF SALT. 
SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THE ANGELFISH. 
YOU STILL ADDED ALOT MORE AND FILTERS ONLY MAKE enough bacteria to support the fish you had in there. discus is a big change ..maybe it didnt keep up. hopefully they are on the mend. they can look terrible..and then in a couple days look great again.


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## Smiladon

aprils aquarium said:


> DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF SALT.
> SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THE ANGELFISH.
> YOU STILL ADDED ALOT MORE AND FILTERS ONLY MAKE enough bacteria to support the fish you had in there. discus is a big change ..maybe it didnt keep up. hopefully they are on the mend. they can look terrible..and then in a couple days look great again.


Thanks April.

I will do another 25% water change tonight and then double the amount of total salt.

I had tons of plecos in the tank before (breeding group and young ones) , but it is possible that even that wasn't enough...


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## Smiladon

I found a good thread online and the symptoms seem to be exactly the same (at least I think they are...)

Discus Club Singapore > Need advice for sick discus

It basically mentions:
1. minimum of 50% water change daily
2. higher temperature
3. lots of salt

Is it advisable to do huge water changes daily or should I stick to my 25-30% water change? I wouldn't want to stress the fish more.
I am still going to stick with April's idea of 1tbsp per 5 gallons. In the thread above, they are using a lot more...


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## seanyuki

Go for 75-80 % water changes daily for a faster recovery.....you may use 2 tablespoon salt for every 10 gallons.......have you treated them with any meds?......since you have PP at home and worth a try.

PP treatment

here's a link in BIDKA how to use it.

The British and International Discus Keepers Association


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## ibenu

EEkkkk These fish have been through so much, early pictures show ammonia burn on some, in addition to low temps as well as previously poor water conditions( still I would think at such low percentage changes of 25%) I think a PP treatment by someone who has never treated discus for anything before this is terrible advice and will result in further damage to to skin barrier, portals of entry for bacteria in an un cycled tank...

PP WILL burn off entire slime coat.. 

Francis PP is a great tool, but its such a sledge hammer and there are things he should fix for at least a couple weeks before he does something so dramatic. Why not just do what April recommends Smiladon? it will take some time but give it a try. I predict a PP treatment gone wrong (easily done in the hands of a novice) will result in death.


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## seanyuki

Salt treatment is good too.......perhaps just follow April's method....water changes & salt.


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## Smiladon

ibenu said:


> EEkkkk These fish have been through so much, early pictures show ammonia burn on some, in addition to low temps as well as previously poor water conditions( still I would think at such low percentage changes of 25%) I think a PP treatment by someone who has never treated discus for anything before this is terrible advice and will result in further damage to to skin barrier, portals of entry for bacteria in an un cycled tank...
> 
> PP WILL burn off entire slime coat..
> 
> Francis PP is a great tool, but its such a sledge hammer and there are things he should fix for at least a couple weeks before he does something so dramatic. Why not just do what April recommends Smiladon? it will take some time but give it a try. I predict a PP treatment gone wrong (easily done in the hands of a novice) will result in death.


I totally understand Lisa. It makes perfect sense. PP for me is like a last resort.

I have used PP before (when I got Discus the first time), and I've read a lot about how to use it properly before, so its not something totally new, but I certainly agree that even a small error can result in instant death or permanent gill damage --> lower life span.



seanyuki said:


> Salt treatment is good too.......perhaps just follow April's method....water changes & salt.


Thanks for your help Francis. I am sticking with salt for now as it seems like its working.

I came home today and found that all except one fish were back to normal colors and swimming around. I turned on the lights and fed them little bit of blood worms (25% of what I would normally). They gorged themselves in my hand and once I let go of the small piece, it was devoured by the time it went 8" below water.

There is still one Discus hiding in the back, all dark.

I did another 25% water change and replaced the salt (1Tbsp/10Gallon). I am going to wait and see tomorrow and if they show the same symptoms again, then I will have to double the salt in tank.

I should also mention that when I put the water back into the tank (fresh water from tap - no prime today), almost all the Discus went right next to it and hanging out there for a while.


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## April

pp should never be advised unless you know theres slime coat to burn off..and if they have ammonia sores..you dont want pp..it needs to be done under guidance. not to be recommended to basic fish keepers on a general forum. its a tool for breeders..or importers..thats where it should stay. its good to disinfect tanks with no fish. 
also..if your filter is already taxed..you dont want pp in there..it would remove any that is re-culturing. good way to kill all the rest of your good bacteria. 
glad they are doing better. im sure even the dark one will be fine in a day or so.


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## Smiladon

aprils aquarium said:


> pp should never be advised unless you know theres slime coat to burn off..and if they have ammonia sores..you dont want pp..it needs to be done under guidance. not to be recommended to basic fish keepers on a general forum. its a tool for breeders..or importers..thats where it should stay. its good to disinfect tanks with no fish.
> also..if your filter is already taxed..you dont want pp in there..it would remove any that is re-culturing. good way to kill all the rest of your good bacteria.
> glad they are doing better. im sure even the dark one will be fine in a day or so.


Thanks April


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## Mike Hunt

April your advise is awsome, What salt would you recomend using ? I use api salt for marine and tropical aquariams but it only comes in the milk cartons, can other salt be purchased in larger sizes ?


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## Smiladon

Mike Hunt said:


> April your advise is awsome, What salt would you recomend using ? I use api salt for marine and tropical aquariams but it only comes in the milk cartons, can other salt be purchased in larger sizes ?


Epsom Salt or Pickling Salt from grocery stores work fine. The salt shouldn't contain iodine basically.


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## Claudia

Any updates on your discus?


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## chillin

just remember the plants might not like all the salt and temp increase, i find water changes and the temp increase seem to get them back on track. as far as the dark one ,if he starts to eat usually a good sign .fbw usually intices them. discus love, fresh, clean, warm water.lots of changes will help if bioload is maxed out; they are a little more work but well worth it.hope this helps..chillin


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