# Starting a planted tank soon.



## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Hi,
I will be starting a planted tank soon. I am fairly new to fresh water tanks as I have only really had a saltwater tank. I will be setting up a 50 Gallon tank 36"x 18"x18" . I have 4 36" HO T5's a Eheim 2215 Canister filter and will be picking up a Co2 set up when I find one used . I will be using ADA Amazonia II as a substrate with a layer of Flourite Black over it. I also know this will not be set up all in one day. It will take time for everything to cycle including the Amonia based ADA. I have a few questions I was hoping to get an answer on.

1. Was wondering what water quality I would need to keep Tetras , plants and some shrimp happy? (PH?)

2. What is the ideal temperature to keep the water at?

3.What is a good combination of bulbs or should i just use all 6500K bulbs? Should I throw a bluer spectrum one on for colour?

4. Is there any kind of plants that I should stay away from?

5. Are there any Tetras that eat shrimp that I should avoid? Was planing of haveing Cardinals and Rummy Noses.

Like I said I am new to planted tanks and any info I could get would be really Appreciated.

Thanks , Chris


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Pretty much all tetras eat cherry shrimp, but with a decent sized colony of shrimp, they outbreed the eating.

As for plants to avoid, duckweed. Use lots of fast growers and java ferns to help reduce the amonia spikes from the substrate and you can have fish right away


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

neven said:


> Pretty much all tetras eat cherry shrimp, but with a decent sized colony of shrimp, they outbreed the eating.
> 
> As for plants to avoid, duckweed. Use lots of fast growers and java ferns to help reduce the amonia spikes from the substrate and you can have fish right away


Thanks for the reply. When you say tetras eat Cherry Shrimp , are we talking the adults or the babies? I am also ok with running the tank fishless for a while I am in no hurry with this tank.

Chris


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## Flygirl (Jul 23, 2011)

neven said:


> Use lots of fast growers and java ferns to help reduce the ammonia spikes from the substrate and you can have fish right away


Not sure if that is the most humane way of doing things. Doing a cycle is a must unless you want to subject your fish to ammonia. Even with a planted tank, some may survive but they will have suffered ammonia burn to their gills and as a result end up with much shorter life spans. Try sniffing an ammonia bottle, while it may not kill you... I guarantee it won't be pleasant. With the information out there now, there is no reason to cycle any tank with fish in it.



jkhcjris said:


> Thanks for the reply. When you say tetras eat Cherry Shrimp , are we talking the adults or the babies? I am also ok with running the tank fishless for a while I am in no hurry with this tank.
> 
> Chris


I have successfully kept cherry shrimp with cardinals and rummy nosed tetras, there were also corries, bushy nose plecos and SAE's. I do have a lot of plants in the tank providing many hiding places for the shrimp, though while observing the tank, the shrimp never seemed shy and the fish didn't bother them. But then that was mostly adults.


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks Flygirl,

Was planning on cycling tank without fish any ways. Really not in any hurry to get this tank up and completed. Just trying to find the correct way to do all this before I make to many mistakes.

Thanks, Chris


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Neven is right. You don't cycle planted tanks. There's nothing inhumane about it. Plants preferentially take up ammonia first, then nitrite, then nitrate. You have to be willing to throw away some of the concepts you learned in salt and in fish only tanks because they don't work in planted tanks. Here's a good explanation: Cycling a Planted Tank | Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks

Also, ADA AS, you will have ammonia in your tank, with one exception, regardless of whether you put fish in or not. That's because the ADA will release ammonia to get the plants started. If ammonia was bad for planted tanks, Amano would have gone out of business long ago. The one exception I mentioned is if you "dry start" a tank for carpet plants. I successfully did this in my ADA cube. The nitrogen cycle is completed without any appreciate amount of water, circulation, or effort by light and some misting of water in the first month or so. Since you say you have time, that's the best way to go.

One concern I have is your lighting. Unless you want a high maintenance tanks, a 4x39w (36") fixture with efficient reflectors is an awful lot of light in a planted tank. With stems, you may get 6-8" of growth a week. If that's what you want, great, but if not, your tank will degenerate into a cycle of high growth, then insufficient CO2 dispersion, then an algae bloom and subsequent trim and clean up and all over again. I would suggest that as a beginner, you may want to start with 2x39w, or if the light (Tek?) has 2 switches, only have all 4 on for a very short time (like 2 hours) with the rest of the photoperiod comprising one bank and then another.

It's good that you're asking the questions first and setting up instead of going knee deep right away.

Oh and one more thing, why cap the ADA with Flourite?

As for the other questions:

1. Our water is soft, so you'll need to use a GH booster (DIY or otherwise), pH will naturally be lower than 7 since you are injecting CO2, even with buffers.
2. Temp should be mid to high 70's F, but that's more dependent on your fish than your plants. My little cube is growing plants great at 68. But higher than about 82 and some plants are going to have problems.
3. Bulbs are for your personal preference. Most bulbs will work unless you're getting into actinics. Most prefer a combination of pinkish and daylight bulbs to highlight the reds in their plants. If you're not growing red plants, all daylight bulbs will look the most natural.
4. Once again, types of plants are personal preference, but I agree with neven, duckweed is just that, a weed, and is a nuisance. I actually think all floating plants in planted tanks are a nuisance as they affect surface gas exchange, but that's a personal thing as I like lots of agitation in my CO2 injected tanks.
5. Cardinals will be fine with bigger shrimp, but they will eat the smaller ones. Rummy Nose will hunt down and eat everything they can catch, so you'll have to have a pretty densely planted tank for something of that size to work. Green neons will be small enough not to be eating too many shrimp, if you can find them.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Flygirl said:


> Try sniffing an ammonia bottle, while it may not kill you... I guarantee it won't be pleasant.


Although I agree with you on fishless cycling in fish only tanks, your example is a bit misleading. Methane isn't pleasant either, but people use outhouses all the time and it doesn't kill them. Sniffing ammonia out of a bottle is breathing in concentrated gas, which is not what is in the tanks from a few tetras.


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

1. Was wondering what water quality I would need to keep Tetras , plants and some shrimp happy? (PH?)
I would say the water quality needs to be fairly clean but thats the beauty of having a planted tank because the plants use up nutrients. As for ph ADA bufferes water around the 6.5 to 6 range which is good for most shrimps...

2. What is the ideal temperature to keep the water at?
Ideal temp for cardinals should be 26c or around 82f but you can definately run 80 or lower.

3.What is a good combination of bulbs or should i just use all 6500K bulbs? Should I throw a bluer spectrum one on for colour?
you can run 1 10,000k 2 6500k and one full spectrum for the reds if you plan on keeping any.

4. Is there any kind of plants that I should stay away from?
With ADA you can keep most plants but if you want to keep it simple and not keep pruning then stay away from stem.

5. Are there any Tetras that eat shrimp that I should avoid? Was planing of haveing Cardinals and Rummy Noses.
as long as you stick with larger shrimp you should be fine amanos, fan shrimp, and ghost. later on when your tank is more lush add some PFR and blue pearls as they breed pretty good and will have lots of space to hide.


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Hey thanks for all the info and replys guys. This is all info I want to here. 2wheelsx2 thanks for the link it will help lots in set up. My lights are Haggen glow retros with no reflectors. I was planning on starting with only two lights in the beginning and adding the other two as needed. I won't have Co2 for a while at least untill I save some money to get it. I am also waiting for ADA to be in town again. As for the Flourite I was going to use it as a topper to darken the soil up more. Kinda like the darker finish to the soil. It is something I am double thinking though.

Thanks Chris


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You'll do better with just 2 lights and 2 reflectors. The reflectors are cheap and make the lights way more efficient. You'll save a bundle on electricity too. I'm running 4x24w with reflectors in my 100 gallon cube and it's plenty bright because I'm not running CO2. Definitely don't hook up all 4 until you have CO2. I wouldn't top the ADA as it'll get all mixed up anyway, and the flourite might compact the ADA defeating one of its main attributes which is permeability to flow which provides the nutrients to the roots.


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> You'll do better with just 2 lights and 2 reflectors. The reflectors are cheap and make the lights way more efficient. You'll save a bundle on electricity too. I'm running 4x24w with reflectors in my 100 gallon cube and it's plenty bright because I'm not running CO2. Definitely don't hook up all 4 until you have CO2. I wouldn't top the ADA as it'll get all mixed up anyway, and the flourite might compact the ADA defeating one of its main attributes which is permeability to flow which provides the nutrients to the roots.


I can get reflectors quit easily. Your right they are cheap. I could also make something that would work quite easily. With my lights I can go with 4 x 24 . The ballast says that I can go either or. On the flourite I am still contiplating that . I already have a bag of it. Would it work under the ADA as extra subtrate as in to make it deeper or should I completly forget about it?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Certainly if you want to save a bit of coin and build up the ADA it would do. I think the Flourite would add a bit of iron too, but I may be wrong, as I've never used it (I've used Florabase, Eco-Complete, plain sand and coated gravel only). I think you should try the 2 bulbs with reflectors first and if it's not enough, you can always add the next 2. 4x24" would not light up the ends of the tank, or do you mean that you would stagger them so that the bulbs are overlapped in the middle? That could work if you put red and higher light plants in the middle. But it wouldn't save you as much juice as using just 2x39w.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

the fluorite for a base would definitely work as its heavy and wont be lifted to the surface as much compared to the other way around. When i need filler to raise an area in the tank, i find large crushed granite to work well, but since you have the flourite, use it instead.

as for fish-less cycling, i think the cruelty argument is played way too often for the main reason to do it. Its cruel to keep the fish in a box in most cases. But i have only planted tanks, so the fish dont get the same stress.


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks again for the replys. I think I will use the flourite under the ADA . I am going to start out with just two lights and add more when I get the CO2 going. Believe it will take me a while to get to using Co2 untill I find a used system in my price range. Really happy with cycling my tank before having fish . Not in any hurry to get them. Plus I have to budget this prodject out so my better half doesn't get to upset.

Thanks Again, Chris


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## Flygirl (Jul 23, 2011)

Maybe I've underestimated the role plants have played in colonizing and cycling my tanks. All of my tanks have been planted right from the start, almost always with plants from existing tanks. Never saw an ammonia spike, and readings for nitrites and nitrates either nil or in the very low range. This had allowed me to add a fish load relatively quickly while still maintaining good parameters. 

Still think it's our role to help those that want to learn, to realize there is ways of doing things that eliminate or at least minimize stress on the critters we have taken into our care. So when you say, the "cruelty thing" has been played too much, I disagree. We see it enough to know that there is still a long way to go and plenty of room for improvement. We can't change everything and everyone, but we can at least make a difference where we can and hopefully rub off the right way on those we meet.

Louise


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Flygirl said:


> Maybe I've underestimated the role plants have played in colonizing and cycling my tanks. All of my tanks have been planted right from the start, almost always with plants from existing tanks. Never saw an ammonia spike, and readings for nitrites and nitrates either nil or in the very low range. This had allowed me to add a fish load relatively quickly while still maintaining good parameters.
> 
> Still think it's our role to help those that want to learn, to realize there is ways of doing things that eliminate or at least minimize
> stress on the critters we have taken into our care. So when you say, the "cruelty thing" has been played too much, I disagree. We see it enough to know that there is still a long way to go and plenty of room for improvement. We can't change everything and everyone, but we can at least make a difference where we can and hopefully rub off the right way on those we meet.
> ...


I don't think anyone is wrong here and there is often misconception on newly set up planted tanks. But there are 
also differences especially when using ammonia based substrates such as ada.

Louise when you said you used plants to cycle your tank and didn't get ammonia, was that with the same ada soil that alot of us use?

I am quite surprised if you did use Amazonia 2 and didn't get ammonia because on every planted tank I have done 
using this substrate there has been traces of it.

As Gary had mentioned ADA AS 2 will leach and continue to do so for a few months. I usually cycle my tanks bare without light or plants for a period of 6 weeks. When the newly set up tank with new ADA is put in I will do 
massive water changes the first week and then the week after a few smaller until the 3rd week and after that just weekly changes. I found this to be the safest route.

Chris you don't have to follow my process but I have found it help full so if you wish you could try it.

Week 1: When you set up your tank with the new substrate and fill it, do a 80% WC the next day, then 50% the day after, this will help clear up the water abit from the brown tinge and also remove leaching nutrients.

Week 2: add a seeded dirty filter sponge or filter squeezings to the tank and run the ehiem, put some filter floss in the last chamber or top chamber of canister and let the bacteria colonize your canister.
Also do 2 small water changes 20% a few days after introducing the filter squeezings, water should clear up.

Week 3: add some charcoal to the filter or a HOB to clear the water, you can also use Purigen if you dislike tannins.
1 WC @ 30%

Week 4: introduce plants and turn on light another 30% WC

Week 5: check params to see if ok and then maybe add a few fish, continue WC

Week 6: if params are stable add some hardy shrimp like amanos. Continue WC

Let me know if you need help or advice you know my number!


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks Again for the replies. Louise I don't plan on putting any fish in the tank for atleast the first month most likely longer. Chris thanks for the info. It sounds like a good week to week schedule you have laid out . Really just want to do things right the first time and learn from people who have already made the mistakes I would like to avoid.

Thanks, Chris


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## Flygirl (Jul 23, 2011)

tang daddy said:


> I don't think anyone is wrong here and there is often misconception on newly set up planted tanks. But there are
> also differences especially when using ammonia based substrates such as ada.
> 
> Louise when you said you used plants to cycle your tank and didn't get ammonia, was that with the same ada soil that alot of us use?
> ...


I really enjoy these kinds of threads, as it provides an opportunity to hear a few different perspectives and learn something new.

I've kept my set ups relatively simple. Always used regular 2-3mm gravel as a substrate from a couple of spots in the interior that have tested relatively inert. As a result, no contributing factor to ammonia. The biggest part was washing it first to reduce it clouding the water.

This is a shot of the main planted tank and the substrate.



















From the sounds of things *jkhcjris*, you have things well in hand. Here is a link to a page which I like from aquahobby that also gives a pretty good explanation into the whole tank cycling dilemma.

Fishless Cycling - Article at The Age of Aquariums - Tropical Fish


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Hey Louise thanks for the article and your tank is amazing. I am looking for too much information. I can never get enough.

Chris


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Flygirl, thanks for posting pics of your beautifully planted tank, the reason why you didn't experience ammonia was because you used inert gravel... Anyone using gravel or other non amonium substrates would have the same conclusion.

Unfortunately for Jkhchris, he has chosen one of the top planted substrates with amonium based soil which does leach which is why he has to take abit more time to set up the tank.

Hey Chris, why not start a tank journal and post some pics.... don't be shy!!


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

tang daddy said:


> Hey Chris, why not start a tank journal and post some pics.... don't be shy!!


Chris I was planning on doing that when I actually had the ADA to start it. Still waiting patiently for it to be in stock again so I can start.

Chris


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

People have given you a lot of information on here. I turned my salt water tank into a planted tank also. Here are some things I have learned over the past 2 years with my planted tanks. First off go to your local library or look online if any of the libraries near you have any books on planted tanks. I drove all the way out to white rock to borrow one from the library out there. Read, Read, Read, ask questions!!!

As for your light question from what I have read plants want bulbs in the 6500k - 10,000k. I run 3x 6700 and 1 x10k bulbs. I have used these bulbs on other peoples tanks and their plants grew like crazy. Set your light up on a timer so they are for than 8 to 10 hours . My lights are off all day while I am at work. They come a couple of hours before I get home. If you want to run all 4 I suggest running them in a sunrise - sunset. 1 group of lights turns on a few hours before the other 2. Than all 4 are on for a few more hours. Than cut back 2 bulbs for the last few hours. This is what I do. I also run a moonlight to give it the full effect.

Here is a good link 
Aquarium Lighting; Reef, Planted Light Information. PAR, Bulb, Watt, Kelvin, Nanometers, MH, LED.

Water tempeture: I keep all my tanks around 76 to 78 degrees.

Ph: Co2 injection drives your ph down over time. I use seachem alkaline buffer and acid buffer together 2 to 1. I also have some crushed coral in my filte. So far it has worked great. Are tap water in the lowermainland is pretty good. The ph out of the tap is perfect IMO. Also I purchased my 10lb CO2 bottle from AW Fireguard filled for $80 cash. I than purchased a regulator with solonoid valve from J&L for $110. I had to buy a diffuser also. Altogether I spent $208 including tax.

I have rummy nose tetras, neons, serpaes to name a few and I did find some of them would after the cherry shrimp. I think partially because I feed a redish pellet and blood worms. So at feeding time they would mistake them for food.

Ive read heavilly planted tanks use up alot of oxygen at night so I run an air pump on a timer just in case. I have lots of fish in my tank.

Good Luck


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## jkhcjris (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks jbyoung00008 for your reply. I have sourced out a 5 pound tank for a case of beer, hydro tested and full. Thanks for the bulb combo I was thinking of using that combo when I have the tank fully up and running. Thanks for the link I will give it a read.

Thanks, Chris


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