# Too much light?



## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Okay, I just started planting just a little while back!
Anyways, is there such a thing called too much light?

I'm only at 84w (3x24w) T5's in a 60 gallon tank which is 2.5feet deep!
Most plants are thriving since I added the additional bulb! 2 x 6700k + 1 x 10000k! BUT, some of the plants seem to getting brown on the top! Is it too much light? or is it because of the 10000k bulb? As I read, 1w per 1g is already very very minimal, and I already dose seachem flourish once every few days! So i'm guessing it's not the mal-nutrition, and it's not too much light, so could it be the 10000k bulb?

Any help or suggestions would be great! Thanks
btw.. only the top is getting brown, but the bottom leaves are doing fine... so that's why I dun suspect malnutrition!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

It's not too much light. But it is too much light relative to nutrition. You changed the balance by adding more light. Are they HO T5's? With properly reflectors? Or is it a DIY rig with no reflectors?

Are you dosing anything besides Flourish? Excel? Macros? What kind of fish load and water change? Water parameters?

I suspect the tips are going brown because it's getting a lot more light than the rest of the plant. It would aslo help if you told what plant it is and whether all your plants are doing it. I am assuming you are getting this in a stem plant.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Not HO, Just the regular Coralife Single strip T5 that came with my setup, and Coralife Double Strip that's brand new~

Dosing Seachem flourish, sera root tabs, PH7, KH3, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrate! Fishloads are several rainbows and several congos with a yoyo loach and apisto! Water change is weekly 30% - 40%! Only vaccuum whatevers on the top of the gravel without disturbing the plants and vaccuuming whatever area without plants! And also DIY co2 that's connected to the the top of fluval 3 plus! running a eheim 2215, fluval 3 plus x2 with lowest flow rate possible!

Amazon plants are doing normal? hardly any growth and hardly any melting!
I dun recall all the plants name, there's one that looks like cabbage leaves LOL, they're doing extremely, roots and leaves are flying all over the places!

And you're correct, it's a type of stem plant! the bottom seem to be umm.. not as healthy? but still really green and not dying! The top is a little brown!

Does 10000k light make any affect to plants or doesn't do anything?

Thanks for the expert advice


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

0 nitrate is your problem. With 0 nitrates, plants cannot utilize phosphates, hence 0 uptake. So you're going putting in trace and whatever your fish is outputing. You need to start some sort of dosing scheme, and I suggest using EI.

The 10000K is fine. I just a combination of 10000K and the Colormax and really good growth with the Coralife NO t5's.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Okay... so put in trace...! ~.~" sigh... so I guess one easy way of spiking up the nitrate is let them poop! HAHAH!!

I'm planning on buying 4x65w compact fixture from one of the member! Anyways, I guess i should just buy it and leave it on the side first!

So what's EI? And what should i actually do or buy? =) Thanks


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Estimative Index dosing. It is combination of dosing trace and macros: NPK. There are many links which provide better instruction than me. And Shawn had a nice sticky on it in the old forum under planted tanks.

Here's a link that explains it: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html


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## cheesekipper (Apr 25, 2010)

There's a good link to EI as a sticky in this subforum check it out, you'll probably have to do a little reading around to get a real good grasp on things, at least if your anything like me that is.. the link to purchase the chemicals required for EI that's provided in the sticky I've had troubles with navigating the website and actually buying anything


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## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

eternity302 said:


> Okay, I just started planting just a little while back!
> Anyways, is there such a thing called too much light?
> 
> I'm only at 84w (3x24w) T5's in a 60 gallon tank which is 2.5feet deep!
> ...


some ones math is not working.....
3x24 is only 72w
also if I'm not mistaken T5 lighting counts as 1.5 watts per gallon as the watts per gallon rule was built around the standard fluorescent bulb.(T12 or T8) i believe.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Adz1 said:


> some ones math is not working.....
> 3x24 is only 72w
> also if I'm not mistaken T5 lighting counts as 1.5 watts per gallon as the watts per gallon rule was built around the standard fluorescent bulb.(T12 or T8) i believe.


OOPS! My bad, this is what happens after a few beer!
Anyways, and it's 28w per T5

So the t5 shouldn't take that rule eh? so what rules should a T5 take? been roaming around trying to learn and make a good plant tank.. other than this one type of plant, everything else is thriving!!


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## MananaP (Apr 22, 2010)

eternity302 said:


> OOPS! My bad, this is what happens after a few beer!
> Anyways, and it's 28w per T5
> 
> So the t5 shouldn't take that rule eh? so what rules should a T5 take? been roaming around trying to learn and make a good plant tank.. other than this one type of plant, everything else is thriving!!


That is T5HO which is about 1.5-1.6w if you want to compare to a regular CFL.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Thanks, that helps! =) I always thought CFL were more than T5!

WOW! that link is crazy... sigh... plants arent cheap to take care of! LOL! I knew it could get crazy, but that's just insane!


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Sometimes brown can be caused by diatoms or brown algae, especially in aquariums that are fairly recently established. If you are finding brownish scum on the glass walls of your tank (near the bottom) then the brown on the tops of your plants might be diatoms. You can sometimes wash or wipe the brown off the plants. 

CRS_Fan told me that otos eat diatoms and he must be right because my planted oto/betta tank never suffers from this but my other tanks do.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

I have a school of 4 otos working inside with 2 filter shrimps, so somehow I'm doubting it's brown algae, but thanks for the input as well =( just want this tank to look pretty, but wow... that link on EI dosing is seriously to the extreme! just to buy all the fertz will be over $100


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

It'll cost you under $30. If you're uncertain about it, I can provide you some to try. At Solar, with the discount, we can pick up NPK for under $20 (well maybe not including taxes). A 1 lb tub will a 20 high light tank years. I use a 5 lb KNO3 tub for my 125 and so far, it's been more than a year and I still have 20% left. I think my 5 lb cost me $35.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm a little confused when you talk about things like NPK?? 1lb tub of? KNO3 tub? =( sorry, I'm not that good, im only using sera root tabs and seachem flourish! As for reading that whole link, it wuz completely interesting, but when I try to look for stuff online, it's not as specific as those do! =) thanks again! I'm an idiot!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry, I meant a 1 lb tub of KNO3. It's the component that's used the most. NPK = nitrogen phosphorous potassium. KNO3 for nitrates, KH2PO4 for phosphates and K2SO4 for potassium. And yes, you're dosing K with N and P, so in a lower light tank, you may not need potassium sulphate (depending if you are relying on fish waste for some N and P. Since KNO3 is dosed at a ratio of 4:1 to phosphates, the consumption of KNO3 is highest. At the end of the week, the 50%+ water change "resets" all the parameters.

Don't be intimidated by the dosing scheme. I know I was until I started doing it. I asked lots of questions and starting dosing dry and now I don't even think about it. When I leave instructions for dosing when I have to go out of town, people think I'm an alien. 

It's essentially NPK macros 3 days a week, and trace (your Flourish) 3 days, on alternation days (apparently phosphates block some uptake of trace minerals, particularly iron). And on the 7th day, you don't dose and then you do the big water change and start all over. It's actually quite simple. There are many members who use it here and other dosing schemes, so just post up in the plant forum and someone may explain it better than me.

Everyone has to start somewhere, so don't be too embarrassed to ask questions.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

Can you simplify that? HAHAHA!!

And trust me, I rather look like an idiot than pretend I know alot!
HAHA, or maybe I should just come to find you on day 3 and day 6!! LOL!


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## target (Apr 21, 2010)

^^I'm with you. The whole dosing thing is still a puzzle to me. Need to spend a lot of time over at Gary's watching him do his tank before I can figure it out.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

target said:


> ^^I'm with you. The whole dosing thing is still a puzzle to me. Need to spend a lot of time over at Gary's watching him do his tank before I can figure it out.


He's like my new mentor right now! Unless he can simplify that.. i will have to sit at his house on day 3 and day 6 just to figure it all out!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

eternity302 said:


> Can you simplify that? HAHAHA!!
> 
> And trust me, I rather look like an idiot than pretend I know alot!
> HAHA, or maybe I should just come to find you on day 3 and day 6!! LOL!


Your wish is my command (sitting in an airport with nothing to do anyway, even though I know you're half joking):

Let's use a 20 gallon with high light for example, say 48 watts of T5HO with good individual reflectors:

Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday: 1/4 Tsp-KN03 3, 1/16 Tsp-KH2P04, 
If you want, you can dose 1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week. I dose 1/2 tsp of epsom salts and plaster of paris instead

Monday, Wednesday, Friday: 5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace (This is you Seachem Flourish)

Saturday, dose nothing.

Sunday, do a 50% (or more) water change and do it all over again.

That's it. If you have red plants, you may dose iron with the trace. And you may dose K2SO4 with the macros if you want.

So you can work out the number by multiples or fractions of 20 gallons. If you have lower light, lower demand plants, you can start to cut it back slowly by observing your plants. As soon as you see adverse effects, up it a bit and then just keep it up.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Haha, you guys posted while I was typing all that. If you guys are apprehensive about it, we can arrange a time and I can come over to your place and show you what to do.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

CAN YOU PLS OH PLS break it down with Seachem Products, like which one and name and link on bigalsonline? THANK YOU MAJESTY!!

OR can you put it into little bottles and re-label them with which one is monday and how much to add in! That would be awesome!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry, I forgot to put Trace = Seachem Flourish. For the Macros (N, P, K) I don't think you want to use Seachem products as you're mostly paying for water. The ingredients I lists are the raw dry bulk chemicals you can buy at Solar Hydroponics or AquarFlora Nurseries.

Those are the measurements I put in there. tsp = teaspoon


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Sorry, I forgot to put Trace = Seachem Flourish. For the Macros (N, P, K) I don't think you want to use Seachem products as you're mostly paying for water. The ingredients I lists are the raw dry bulk chemicals you can buy at Solar Hydroponics or AquarFlora Nurseries.
> 
> Those are the measurements I put in there. tsp = teaspoon


For the macros as you said.. where do I get that? those Solar Hydroponics! For god sakes.. i am about to drive to your house.. kidnap you, force you to go buy all this crap with me! LOL!


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

Let me see if I can help (or make things worse.. LOL)..... and i'm basically saying what 2wheelsx2 just said.

When you have a planted tank, the plants in the tank needs a few important things to grow. Unlike in the wild where there is lots of everything, a fish tank is a closed system. The plants only have access to what we give them.

Inorder for plants to grow properly, they need

Light - You provide this with T5 tubes or cfl's etc.

Carbon - provided by Flourish Excel or your co2 injection

Nutrients - Macro's (which are the NPK that wheels was talking about) and Micro's (trace elements, this is your Flourish)

So When you visit the local hydroponics store (such as solar), you will walk out with 3-4 jars of powder. 3 jars of macro and 1 jar of trace (if you don't want to use the flourish you already have)... this should cost you approx $20 to $25 and last over a year likely.

Now, look at the tubs of stuff you have purchased, they should be labled as followed

KNO3, Kh2PO4, AND K2SO4.... the 3 chemicals there provide you with (in order) Nitrogen, Phosphates, and Potassium... your NPK, also know as your macro nutrients.

So, how do you does them in your tank?.. the bottom line is that 3 times a week you need to put a specific amount of the white powder into your fish tank, if this means dosing it dry (get a measuring spoon, spoon it out of the jar and throw it into the tank) or pre-mixing it with water.. that choice is up to you.

Macro ferts (NPK, or the 3 white powders) can me mixed together, and dosed together. The trace elements (or the flourish you have) needs to be dosed seperately. This is easy to remember because the trace is the only powder that is not white... it's a rusty colour.

So, Personally I like to pre-mix my chemicals.. reason is that everyday I only have to measure one thing in the morning and be done with it...... so how you measure it? look below.

Get a large bottle... i'm using a 700ml pop bottle for myself.. has a cap that seals properly and is cheap (and yummi) to get.

Now, when you dose each day, you want to put in a nice round number... I don't like measuring out 7.23ml... so.. .let's pick something easy...... say 20 ml's.

So we will make 20 doses in the bottle........ so just take the measurements wheels gave you and multiple it by 20....

1/4 tsp of KNO3 per dose * 20 doses = 1/4 * 20 = 5 tsp of KNO3..... scoop that out and pour it into the bottle.

1/16 tsp of Kh2PO4 = 1/16*20 = 1.25 tsp.. throw that in the bottle too.

1/16 tsp of K2SO4 = 1/16*20 = 1.25 tsp... this is optional but I do it.... throw that in the bottle too

then.... add water.. 20ml * 20 doses = 400ml of water..... give it a good shake and you have your macro mixture.. good for 20 doses........ at 3 doses a week it should last you almost 7 weeks... or short of 2 months... cost maybe $3 to $5

As for the trace, you can use 5ml of flourish.. OR make your own by (again, 20 doses)
1/16tsp * 20 = 1.25 tsp of trace powder, throw that in another bottle and add 400ml of water (as above).. shake..


Now, what you should end up with is 2 bottles.. one that is clear (after sitting over night) and one that looks like ice tea.

On Sunday (AFTER the water change), Tuesday, and Thursday.. grab the clear bottle and dump in 20 ml of the solution...... (this is your macro)

On Monday, wed, fri, dump in 20 ml of the ice tea solution (this is your micro or trace)

Water change 50% or more on sunday and repeat..... that's it... easy as pie...


Also keep in mind that with EI dosing (the system we have above) the idea is to overdose the tank with nutrients.... since there is more of everything in the tank, the plants are never lacking in anything. What this also means is that you don't have to be super accurate with your measurements.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

That makes more sense! THANK YOU! But this EI dosing is for how many gallons? and how heavily planted? =)

We seriously have to grab the two of you, and I'll buy the coffee, and I can write all this down and where to buy what!!!
Where should i buy dry dose?


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## Jonney_boy (Apr 28, 2010)

Everything can be bought in one store.. solar hydroponics.... they will sell you 3 jars of white powder and one jar of "rusty colored" power.....

Dry dosing is just that, throwing the chemicals DRY into the fish tank (and not pre-mixing it with water as I like to do).

The above calculations where done using the numbers given by wheels 2x and can be easily changed / recalculated for larger tanks........ his numbers where for a high light 20 gal tank.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

You guys are truly AMAZING!
I can slowly try to figure out all those dosage of what and what! But is this a gardening store i'm buying all this from?


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## DR1V3N (Apr 22, 2010)

Please don't close this thread ever 

In 2 weeks I'm going to be in the same boat as you as I have a 24" tall tank that I'm planning to plant.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

If you need to sit out and discuss this, let me know! LOL!
I see my plants thriving, and its growing so high that it's hitting the top.. but the bottom plants still aren't doing as great, and some of the stem plants are just growing a little brown and weak on the bottom... and when i stare at other people's photo, Im just thinking how ugly mine is!

Now anyways, let continue, is this a gardening store? And do they know what the hell I'm asking for when I go in?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for helping out Jonney, I was worried that I was giving eternity one sided advice. 

Solar is a hydroponics store, so yeah, it's a gardening store, but for people who want to grow with water...yeah, those types, but also legit people who grow tomatoes, ripariums, etc.

They will know exactly what you are looking for, even if you don't, as Henry and his employees can tell when it's a fish guy coming in now. So just show then the formulae (KNO3, KH2PO4, etc) and they'll point you to the wall. Solar is on Imperial St close to Nelson in Burnaby, very close to Metrotown. Here's their website:
http://www.solarhydroponics.com/


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## Blackbar (Apr 23, 2010)

eternity302 said:


> I see my plants thriving, and its growing so high that it's hitting the top.. but the bottom plants still aren't doing as great, and some of the stem plants are just growing a little brown and weak on the bottom...


This is likely due to your lighting. Either the upper plant growth is shading the light to the lower, or the light penetration is insufficient at the deeper levels. The Most successful planted tanks aren't very deep and this is because the longer wavelengths of light (the reddish spectrum) which are partially required for photosynthesis (growth) do not make it to the lower levels of the tank.

This is why deep water appears blue or green, because the red light has been absorbed. Also, you won't find much plant life at the bottom of a lake, but lots in the shallow areas near the shoreline where the wider spectrum of light is available.

The best way to keep your tank looking lush is to keep the fast growing stemmed plants trimmed regularly (often you'd cut them and replant the tops). This will reduce overshading. In the darker areas plant lower light plants such as anubias or mosses.

Good luck!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh I missed that. Blackbar is right on the money there. Whenever I neglect my pruning, there is die-off in the lower parts of the tank in my higher light tanks. In the lower light tanks, the growth is slow enough that I can keep up.


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