# Raiseing PH and Maintaneing PH????



## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

So here goes...
my PH sits at about 5.8-6.0 and is pretty stable there.
i would like to increase it to 7.0-7.2 and get it to stay stable there.
what are my options for increaseing and then maintaneing my PH.
i do not want to go and buy a whole lot of buffers and or chemicals.
I would preffer to do it naturaly some how with say crushed coral or what ever else you guys are using to do this.
My tank is 250g has great water movement with 2xhydor koralia 1400s and 2 xp4 cans as well as a sand bed filter.
whater is always crystal clear unless i neglect on my fishly duties.
open to any and all suggestions.

Thanks
Adrian.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

Go Crushed Coral,I do it in all My Tanks maintains 7.0-7.2 easily. I sprinkle and mix throughout the Substrate,or you can leave your Pleco's,Geo's,or Large Bottom feeders to do the mixing which is what I do. Been doing it for years and the CC lasts a very very long time.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Adz1 said:


> So here goes...
> my PH sits at about 5.8-6.0 and is pretty stable there.
> i would like to increase it to 7.0-7.2 and get it to stay stable there.
> what are my options for increaseing and then maintaneing my PH.
> ...


Crushed coral will only raise pH and not increase hardness. Have a look at my stickies on the subject. If you use coral gravel and later want to use buffers it will be more difficult to control your pH then without it.


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## lar (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Crushed coral will only raise pH and not increase hardness. Have a look at my stickies on the subject. If you use coral gravel and later want to use buffers it will be more difficult to control your pH then without it.


Rastapus, bascially you are saying not to use buffer and crushed coral? the reason i ask is I have coral sand and use buffer at the same time.

thanks!


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

He is saying that crushwd coral has a limited effectiveness. As the ph increases, the rate at which it dissolves greatly diminishes, making it only a messy detritus trap. Ive found that around 7.4 ph i am unable to get anytjing else out of the crushed coral. If you have a substrate that buffers down you will find it will dissolve more effective until a certain point is reached. That point varies tank to tank.

Now if you use kh boosters than your crushed coral isnt doing much at all, since the booster gets you to the point in which the crushed coral wont dissolve.

So adrian if you are after just a ph gain with little kh and you are not looking to buffer than it will work for you

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## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

yes i am looking for a PH increase without a KH increase.
i am not looking to buffer if i do not have to...
i just want my ph to come up from 6.0 to 7.0 and remain stable .


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## jcgd (Feb 4, 2011)

Why? The ph is mainly influenced by kh. CO2 in the water can lower the ph some. If the ph is stable, leave it be. If you want the higher ph to better suite the fish, then they kh needs to increase. 

Crushed coral and a regular water change schedule is the easy route. You will tend to settle at a higher ph after a few weeks and it will be dependant on a bunch of factors like the buffering capabilites of your tap water, the amount of crushed coral and the water movement through the coral.

You can also add baking soda. If you change the same amount every water change you can calculate how much buffer to add to increase the kh to whatever value you need to get your target ph.

Neither of these will affect the gh. Consider that sulawesi shrimp like very alkaline (high ph) yet very soft water. I believe your local water is very soft and has very little alkalinity (kH).


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

If you want your Ph to stay isnt' that what buffering is about?
Can you increase PH without increasing KH?


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

I use to use a bag of Caribsea's crushed coral with aragonite in my filter to maintain a pH of about 7.0 without an increase to KH with regular waterchanges. It was trial and error to find out the right amount to use to get to a pH of 7.0 and I maintained it that way for a number of years until the pH crashed one day back to 6 and a number of fish died. For other tanks where I wanted to maintain a higher pH without increasing KH, I use a larger amount (cup or so) of crushed coral /w aragonite and it kept a pH of 7.6. The aragonite would naturally dissolve at any pH level less than 7.6 and as long as I had enough aragonite, it worked but it was a balancing act for trying to maintain a pH of less than 7.6.

I no longer do this and I buffer my tanks with one of the commercial buffering products like Seachem Alkaline buffer, Kent pH Stable or baking soda. By maintaining a minimum level of KH, I know that the pH will remain stable until the next water change. I don't shoot for a pH level but a KH level and the tanks range from a KH of 3dKH up to 10dKH, pH ranges from 7.4 to over 8. This is working for my Asian community tanks, rainbowfish and cory breeders, goldfish, tropheus and other tanganyikan cichlids.


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## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

OK so i guess tank inhabitants may play a factor...
3 extra lrge Pbass,4 extra lrge silver dollars and a FRT.
mainly trying to raise the ph for the FRT as the rest have been happily living in 6.0 nfor a long time.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Please correct me if I am wrong--and it would nto be the first nor last time LOL--but isn't KH a measure of carbonate ions? If so, adding crushed coral is basically adding carbonate in an undissolved form so why would it not raising KH?
Isn't PH the measure of H+ ion or OH- ion? If you are raising PH, you need something to bind with the H+ ion? Are you saying you want to do that without adding any carbonate ions?
What is wrong with just using alkaline buffer or a mixturte of acidic and alkaline buffer to get your desired PH and KH level? I am sorry I am just confused.
Thank you.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

This is explained in my sticky but to simplify, by adding Alkaline buffer you raise the amount of carbonates in your aquarium and stabilize your pH and prevent pH crashes. For those using crushed coral, it will raise your pH but it will not raise your KH because it will not dissolve unless in an acidic environment. As soon as the pH drops the coral dissolves slightly and raises your pH back up. The bigger issue here is being missed, the fish being kept come from water conditions containing carbonates, for those that feel their fish are happy the way it is, well, would they not be happier with carbonates present in the water like they would have both in the wild and at the farm in which they were raised? The only time KH and GH are very low naturally is in the rainy season in south america, this is only for a brief time and is when fish tend to breed. This is not a condition they are exposed to all the time. Bottom line is for the best conditions for your fish, simply use Alkaline Buffer and salt to raise both GH and KH and your fish will be VERY happy.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Isnt crushed coral calcium carbonate? How does it raise PH without dissloving carbonate ion into the water (which would raise KH)? Increase PH means taking out H+ iosn or adding OH- ions into water, is that right? Sorry not good at chemistry so please bear with me.
I use equilbrium and alkaline buffer thanks to Garner and Angelo (Richmond IPU)'s advice.  It is a simple way to keep my Kh and Gh in my opinion. I do not really consider them chemical as in being harmful or toxic. To me equilbrium is like givng my fish minerals that they need, like supplement.


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## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Isnt crushed coral calcium carbonate? How does it raise PH without dissloving carbonate ion into the water (which would raise KH)? Increase PH means taking out H+ iosn or adding OH- ions into water, is that right? Sorry not good at chemistry so please bear with me.
> I use equilbrium and alkaline buffer thanks to Garner and Angelo (Richmond IPU)'s advice.  It is a simple way to keep my Kh and Gh in my opinion. I do not really consider them chemical as in being harmful or toxic. To me equilbrium is like givng my fish minerals that they need, like supplement.


yes but on my 250g tank with 50% water changes 3 times a week this buffering seems to get very costly...


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

Adz1 said:


> yes but on my 250g tank with 50% water changes 3 times a week this buffering seems to get very costly...


It may not be that bad. You may find it only takes 1 tablespoon or even teaspoon per water change to get the parameters you are looking for.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

may be you can try adding baking soda instead I guess...


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

Coral is indeed made of calcium carbonate. I don't know where people are getting the idea that dissolved corals aren't going to contribute to KH...


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## Adz1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> This is explained in my sticky but to simplify, by adding Alkaline buffer you raise the amount of carbonates in your aquarium and stabilize your pH and prevent pH crashes. For those using crushed coral, it will raise your pH but it will not raise your KH because it will not dissolve unless in an acidic environment. As soon as the pH drops the coral dissolves slightly and raises your pH back up. The bigger issue here is being missed, the fish being kept come from water conditions containing carbonates, for those that feel their fish are happy the way it is, well, would they not be happier with carbonates present in the water like they would have both in the wild and at the farm in which they were raised? The only time KH and GH are very low naturally is in the rainy season in south america, this is only for a brief time and is when fish tend to breed. This is not a condition they are exposed to all the time. Bottom line is for the best conditions for your fish, simply use Alkaline Buffer and salt to raise both GH and KH and your fish will be VERY happy.


Grant thanks for the sticky info.

and thank you every one else for the help and info/experiances.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

gsneufeld said:


> Coral is indeed made of calcium carbonate. I don't know where people are getting the idea that dissolved corals aren't going to contribute to KH...


no one says dissolved corals wont contribute to the KH, they are saying it wont dissolve much in our water without having your PH lowered by another means (ie acid) to keep it dissolving. So crushed coral ends up staying crushed coral, not dissolved crushed coral. A lot of the people swearing by crushed coral are using CO2, but not realizing that the co2 creates carbonic acid that dissolves the coral. Running the crushed coral without co2, you need to either never change your tanks water (ph drops through the nitrogen cycle), or have a Substrate that buffers the PH down (only to a limited gain of KH from the coral). What grant is getting at is Fish used to Low hardness, are used to around 2 dKH, not 0. Theres a vast difference for osmoregulation from 0 to 2dKH.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

neven said:


> no one says dissolved corals wont contribute to the KH, they are saying it wont dissolve much in our water without having your PH lowered by another means (ie acid) to keep it dissolving. So crushed coral ends up staying crushed coral, not dissolved crushed coral. A lot of the people swearing by crushed coral are using CO2, but not realizing that the co2 creates carbonic acid that dissolves the coral. Running the crushed coral without co2, you need to either never change your tanks water (ph drops through the nitrogen cycle), or have a Substrate that buffers the PH down (only to a limited gain of KH from the coral). What grant is getting at is Fish used to Low hardness, are used to around 2 dKH, not 0. Theres a vast difference for osmoregulation from 0 to 2dKH.


What kind of substrate "buffers down" PH? That's not what buffer means.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

No point arguing semantics. The statement was about having a substrate that uses peat or another means that lowers your ph. By using crushed coral and peat you can adjust where your tank will reach an equillibrium for ph and kh. Peat lowers kh too but not near as much as it lowers ph. And for the recorf ive seen this refered to buffering down despite it not being the best term to describe it

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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

neven said:


> no one says dissolved corals wont contribute to the KH, they are saying it wont dissolve much in our water without having your PH lowered by another means (ie acid) to keep it dissolving. So crushed coral ends up staying crushed coral, not dissolved crushed coral. A lot of the people swearing by crushed coral are using CO2, but not realizing that the co2 creates carbonic acid that dissolves the coral. Running the crushed coral without co2, you need to either never change your tanks water (ph drops through the nitrogen cycle), or have a Substrate that buffers the PH down (only to a limited gain of KH from the coral). What grant is getting at is Fish used to Low hardness, are used to around 2 dKH, not 0. Theres a vast difference for osmoregulation from 0 to 2dKH.


Thank you for the knowledgable and detailed explaination, appreciate it.
What I did not understand and what I was asking was just how does crush coral raise PH without increasing KH. I always thought KH would increase when PH increases (H+ ion diminishe due to the presence of carbonate ions in the water)?
Thank you.



Rastapus said:


> This is explained in my sticky but to simplify, by adding Alkaline buffer you raise the amount of carbonates in your aquarium and stabilize your pH and prevent pH crashes. For those using crushed coral, it will raise your pH but it will not raise your KH because it will not dissolve unless in an acidic environment. As soon as the pH drops the coral dissolves slightly and raises your pH back up.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Correct, it has a very minimal affect on KH, not readable by standard test kits as it would not even raise to 1 dKH. Our African section was full of crushed coral and never had a KH reading until we used Alkaline buffer.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

Rastapus said:


> Correct, it has a very minimal affect on KH, not readable by standard test kits as it would not even raise to 1 dKH. Our African section was full of crushed coral and never had a KH reading until we used Alkaline buffer.


That makes sense, I'll bet it wasn't that good at buffering the PH either. I've read that after a short while they get coated with some kind of slime and algae and they don't erode any more. I personally find using regular baking soda mixed in the water change bucket works as well as anything to buffer and prevent PH swings.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

gsneufeld said:


> That makes sense, I'll bet it wasn't that good at buffering the PH either. I've read that after a short while they get coated with some kind of slime and algae and they don't erode any more. I personally find using regular baking soda mixed in the water change bucket works as well as anything to buffer and prevent PH swings.


I do the same, but also add gh buffer. For my livebearers i dose baking soda, ro right, equillibrium and stability. I find if i do it this way i dont need to worry about cloudy water with the higher parametrs

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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

Here are two pretty good article about this subject I just found.http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwsoftness.htm

The Wonderful World of Water Chemistry Part II, pH, Alkalinity, Acidity and You! by BobF


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