# What am I doing wrong? Plants don't seem so happy.



## Annextro (Nov 7, 2016)

Hello all, so as the title suggests, I'm really struggling to figure out what's lacking in my current setup as some of my plants aren't thriving as expected, given their current environment. I'm going to go quite in depth with my setup and regime to make sure I cover everything I can, so bear with me!

Many of the plants seem to be growing while at the same time suffering from the problems listed below. I'm not too good with the names so I have included pictures where I can to show exactly what I'm talking about.

*PLANT ISSUES*

My Amazon sword has 2 new stems of growth in the past few months, but has holes in a few leaves and disintegration from tips on some.
The red colour in several species slowly fades over time to the pale red/green mix.
Leaves separating at stems.
Black spots on leaves sometimes expanding and taking over the leaf until it is completely gone or separates from the stem.
Yellowing of some plants.

*ALGAE*

There is some BBA in spots, as well as what seems to be a dense black algae (in photo) that doesn't resemble the other BBA... Algae on the glass hasn't been as much of an issue since recent addition of CO2.

*TANK/LIGHTS/FILTER*

Tank size: 37gal, 30Lx12Wx22H
Lights: 
- dual 30" Coralife T5HO fixture w/ 2 31W bulbs
- 2 x 24" Sunblaster T5HO 24W
- dual 24" Coralife w/ 2 14W Colormax bulbs (bulbs not marked, best guess from research online)
- Previously had them on a timer for 8 hours a day but have been increasing the photoperiod in the past week. Having doubts with their efficiency...
Filter: Eheim 2075

*LIVING AND BREATHING THINGS*

Around 40 livin' and breathing inhabitants (African dwarf frogs, mollies, platys, swordtails, danios, tetra, dwarf frogs, corys, ottos)

*SUBSTRATE/FERTILIZER/CO2*

Substrate: Some CaribSea Eco-Complete mixed with other similar substrate designed for the planted aquarium.
Fertilizers & dosing (all Seachem products ~1 cap-full):
- Excel: every day
- Iron: every other day
- Potassium: 3 times a week
- Trace: 2 times a week
- Flourish: 2 times a week
- Root tabs: had several in the tank over the past 4/5 months but no new ones recently
CO2: DIY citric acid and baking soda system

*WATER PARAMETERS*
~10 days since last water change. I usually change a third of the water every 7-10 days.
Temp: 76-81 depending on the time of day
pH: 6.6/6.8
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
Ammonia: 0ppm-0.25ppm
GH: 9
KH: 5

I have been running the DIY CO2 system for about 2 weeks now at about 1-3bps (messing around trying to dial it in). I have a ceramic diffuser under the intake of my filter so almost all the bubbles get sucked up, and I don't see any coming out of the output. I have pretty good circulation around the tank, nearly all of the plants have a moderate sway to them and there are slight ripples along the surface. Without the ripples and small airstone I noticed the larger fish surface breathing, so I tried creating some agitation to help them out and it seems to work. Only occasionally do I see them at the top now. Trying to achieve the right balance between giving my plants enough CO2 while not gassing my fish, and creating enough surface agitation for gas exchange without out-gassing all of the CO2. I have a drop checker with bromothymol blue and 4dKH reference solution that has been a pretty steady green when placed in the aquarium, leading me to believe my CO2 levels are in the right ballpark. The average KH of my tank water prior to the addition of CO2 was next to 0, though I have supplemented AquaVitro's Carbonate for Plants (KH) as well as Mineralize (GH) after a few water changes in the past month to harden the water a bit. When I do water changes I condition the water with prime prior to adding it to the tank.

I've searched high and low across several forums looking for possible causes for the degradation of my plants, with most of them pointing to lack of nutrients, not enough CO2, or inadequate lighting. In terms of fertilizers, is there something that I am missing? Are my lights not doing their job? Or am I completely missing out on something crucial? Any insight you guys may have will be greatly appreciated!


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## Mark Brown (Jan 21, 2017)

first thing I would recommend is to increase your nitrogen. This is typically done with something like potassium nitrate. I use a premix from tailored aquatics, keeps my nitrate up around 20 ppm. I douse it every second day. I know I was having a lot of the same issues as you are, my plants would remove my nitrate entirely from the waste generated. I'm definitely not smart, but it helped in my case so maybe it will help in yours. I also had bba algae start to take a hold, since I introduced nitrate it has subsided. No other signs of algae, that's a lie, I have a bit of sexy green algae on my driftwood, but I like that so it is a OK! Hopefully you can get some more tips because there are some plant wizards around here!

Best of luck


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## Dou (Dec 4, 2015)

Hmm.... If nothing is growing but staying steady - for me, that has always been a sign of insufficient lighting (you have CO2 and root-tabbed substrate). I noticed this several times in my tanks and all I did was up the intensity a bit and the next few days I start seeing new leaves again. It seems like your substrate has adequate nutrients for your rootfeeders (since you're using root tabs, not using any plants that take nutrients from water column like java fern/bolbitis) so I don't think it's a dosing or nutrient issue... YET. It doesn't seem like your substrate (with root tabs) can be depleted that quickly given your plants lack of growth. The first thing I would test, before doing anything else, is to get a new light. If possible, borrow one from a friend, a light that has stronger PAR rating, to see if that makes a difference.


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## Mick2016 (Jun 16, 2016)

RE: " . . . Previously had them on a timer for 8 hours a day but have been increasing the photoperiod in the past week. Having doubts with their efficiency... "

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I use compact fluorescent bulbs and Flourish tabs. 8 a.m. to 7 p.m. No CO2. Plants grow, as expected, with an occasional dead/yellow leaf to trim. Of course, I only have the most basic/low-tech plants in the tank.


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## Annextro (Nov 7, 2016)

Thanks for the replies! I have now tried upping the nitrogen levels while looking in to adding more light. I will also fiddle around with the CO2 to see if I can get that working better.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 21, 2017)

I gave up on my Co2 for now. It was a toss up between bubbles I hate and did I really need it. For the time being, seems like I didn't really need it but then gain all I have are simple plants.


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## Annextro (Nov 7, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> I gave up on my Co2 for now. It was a toss up between bubbles I hate and did I really need it. For the time being, seems like I didn't really need it but then gain all I have are simple plants.


Yeah if it's not needed then why trouble yourself with the extra upkeep/cost etc.. For me I thought it was the missing piece, however it hasn't seemed to benefit the tank in the way it should. Just a matter of tinkering around with everything until I strike the balance, I suppose.


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## Dou (Dec 4, 2015)

Annextro said:


> Yeah if it's not needed then why trouble yourself with the extra upkeep/cost etc.. For me I thought it was the missing piece, however it hasn't seemed to benefit the tank in the way it should. Just a matter of tinkering around with everything until I strike the balance, I suppose.


Looking forward to an update with a new light!


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## Gardener (Feb 13, 2011)

From the details you gave Nitrogen (nitrate) does look like your limiting factor. You do certainly have lots of carbon if you are dosing both with Excel and diy CO2. Google "ph kh co2 table" and you will find useful charts for figuring out how much co2 you're getting. With the lighting just keep in mind that longer doesn't equal stronger. Go much past 8 to 10 hours and all you are doing is making the algae happy...


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## troutsniffer (Dec 10, 2015)

You need a quad t5ho to get adequate lighting in a tank that deep. I'd stay away from Led unless you don't mind the expense. It kinda sounds like a combo of lack of light and nutrients. Your first problem is you're wasting money on seachem products. You don't need excel while using co2, and everything else works but it's mostly water. Swords are heavy root feeders and need something better like osmocote root tabs and aqua soil/ dirted substrate. They will live in eco complete but that stuff is inert and takes a long time to be reliable imo. I have osmocote root tabs, I can mail you some so you don't have to come all the way out here, just pm me an address. 
If you can, try ordering some thrive or something from theplantguy, his pps pro bottles and ferts combo is pretty good and will give your plants a nice boost while saving money.


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## Mick2016 (Jun 16, 2016)

RE: " . . . With the lighting just keep in mind that longer doesn't equal stronger. Go much past 8 to 10 hours and all you are doing is making the algae happy..."

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Not always the case. My fluorescent lights are on 11 hours a day. Sometimes a little brownish-green algae appears along the seams of the silicone, but the Corys and Otos take care of that.


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## charlie1 (Nov 27, 2015)

I tend to agree with others that your nitrogen is one of your major deficiency, that said you also need to dose PO4 / Potassium Phosphates with the Potassium Nitrate.
Since your Sword appears to be the hardest hit, root tabs may be best in your tank as opposed to column dosing, as mentioned sword are heavy root feeders and since your tank has very little stem plants i wont go over board with column dosing.
In regards to root tabs, forget about Seachem, it does not provide any *significant* macro nutrients(Potassium, Nitrate,Phosphates).
I would trim away the bad leaves, giving the plant the opportunity to focus on growth of the new & unaffected leaves as opposed to trying to repair the damaged ones.
I would suggest you revisit your CO2 Saturation, i highly suspect your DIY CO2 is not up to speed with the desired supply , aim for 1 PH point drop from the point of no CO2 to the point of maximum by the end of 12 hrs. - Example No CO2 , PH is 7.5 at the end of the day/light cycle , you want a PH of approximately 6.5.
I won`t worry too much about lighting at this point, what you have presently should suffice for the plants you have in that tank at this time.
Regards


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## Annextro (Nov 7, 2016)

Gardener said:


> From the details you gave Nitrogen (nitrate) does look like your limiting factor. You do certainly have lots of carbon if you are dosing both with Excel and diy CO2. Google "ph kh co2 table" and you will find useful charts for figuring out how much co2 you're getting. With the lighting just keep in mind that longer doesn't equal stronger. Go much past 8 to 10 hours and all you are doing is making the algae happy...


Those charts seemed to give readings somewhat consistent with what I'm seeing in the drop checker! As I get more lighting I will dial back the duration they are on and see how the plants fair with that. Thanks for the feedback!



troutsniffer said:


> You need a quad t5ho to get adequate lighting in a tank that deep. I'd stay away from Led unless you don't mind the expense. It kinda sounds like a combo of lack of light and nutrients. Your first problem is you're wasting money on seachem products. You don't need excel while using co2, and everything else works but it's mostly water. Swords are heavy root feeders and need something better like osmocote root tabs and aqua soil/ dirted substrate. They will live in eco complete but that stuff is inert and takes a long time to be reliable imo. I have osmocote root tabs, I can mail you some so you don't have to come all the way out here, just pm me an address.
> If you can, try ordering some thrive or something from theplantguy, his pps pro bottles and ferts combo is pretty good and will give your plants a nice boost while saving money.


Yeah the LEDs are a bit out of my price range, however I'm currently in the process of getting at least a quad T5HO fixture so I will be sure to update on that in the coming days. The sword in my tank is actually one I got from you last year, and I love it! The eco-complete only makes up about 1/4 of the aquasoil in my tank, but I can't for the life of me remember the brand of the remaining substrate... In the past few weeks I've been looking in to switching from the Seachem liquid products to EI dosing dry ferts as I was given a mix bag of Macro and Micro nutrients from AquariumFertilizer.com. I'll look in to the products you mentioned from theplantguy and weigh out EI vs. PPS Pro. Do you have experience with one over the other? As per the root tabs I will send you a PM right now!



charlie1 said:


> I tend to agree with others that your nitrogen is one of your major deficiency, that said you also need to dose PO4 / Potassium Phosphates with the Potassium Nitrate.
> Since your Sword appears to be the hardest hit, root tabs may be best in your tank as opposed to column dosing, as mentioned sword are heavy root feeders and since your tank has very little stem plants i wont go over board with column dosing.
> In regards to root tabs, forget about Seachem, it does not provide any *significant* macro nutrients(Potassium, Nitrate,Phosphates).
> I would trim away the bad leaves, giving the plant the opportunity to focus on growth of the new & unaffected leaves as opposed to trying to repair the damaged ones.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, Charlie. I'll revisit my dosing strategies and try and make up for what others are pointing out as my deficiencies. In regards to the CO2, I'm afraid I will gas my fish if I push it much further as increasing it in the past has caused many of them to hangout at the surface gasping for air. Again I assume it's just a matter of striking the balance. I'll see what I can do!


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