# So i think the Cycle on the 75 has stalled.... how to i get things back on track?



## Canuckgame (Mar 2, 2013)

So im on day 23 of the Cycle on my 75 gallon,

things were going great and i was ahead of schedule, after only a week my tank was converting Ammonia to Nitrite, and my Nitrite levels were off the charts, i was then dosing my Ammonia levels back up, and was preforming a 30% WC every 2nd day to keep the Nitrite levels lower as i heard high Nitrite levels slows the cycle down.

anyways ive been testing my Ammonia daily, and my tank is no longer absorbing the Ammonia, soooo i think i may be in trouble? maybe i added too much ammonia? i havent done a waterchange in over a week now and havent added Ammonia in 4 days. because the Ammonia is no longer converting to Nitrite... so confused..

this is my first fishless cycle.

i was using a Nutrafin ammonia test kit, but it ran out, and i just bought an API test kit and here is the reading. 4ppm










i only meant to dose ammonia up to 3PPM once i was on the 2nd stage of the cycle converting ammonia to nitrite.

any advice here on how to right the ship? i was hoping for a problem feww cycle but as long as this is fixable, thats all im hoping for, i was hoping to get my Discus next week, but looks like i am probably another 3 weeks away if everything goes smoother..

thanks for any advice.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I don't know if a fishless cycle is the best way to do things especially for a bigger tank and especially if you are planning to add a significant bioload all at one time. Just isn't very efficient. IMO I would much rather just add fish immediately and do one of two things, both of which have worked well for me. Add fish and use Seachem Stability and make sure to follow the directions to a "T." Don't skip or forget to dose. After a week to 10 days, your tank should be cycled. The other way which a lot of discus keepers do is to perform large daily WC, like 75% at least. Because you are effectively physically removing all the ammonia you are golden. If you want to scale back on the WC's, bacteria will eventually begin to build up in there and you can gradually reduce the WC % and the WC frequency. This is a bit of an art as you have to strike a balance with given the fish clean water and given the bacteria enough ammonia for food so they can build up. Keep testing your water. If things don't look right, Clean Clean water is a discus' best friend and can never hurt. If in doubt, just change water. Also make sure you treat water with Prime or Safe or some other brand of water treatment...just to be safe with your fish.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

I agree with Tony. Try adding a bunch of Stability that should help drop it off. If it doesn't do another water change and keep adding stability. The tank will cycle eventually. 

Ive never tried the fishless cycle. It Sseems it can be a pain in the butt and who has that much self control to not buy fish. Not me!


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

another thing that you can do ( if you can) is to get the used filter media from someone close to you.. I used the filter media from my 90G to other tanks and it worked for me ( almost instantly cycled)..


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

jhj0112 said:


> another thing that you can do ( if you can) is to get the used filter media from someone close to you.. I used the filter media from my 90G to other tanks and it worked for me ( almost instantly cycled)..


Yup, just make sure you can trust the tank the media is coming from. Especially with discus who tend to be sensitive to pathogens that are not native to their current environment.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

jbyoung00008 said:


> I agree with Tony. Try adding a bunch of Stability that should help drop it off. If it doesn't do another water change and keep adding stability. The tank will cycle eventually.
> 
> Ive never tried the fishless cycle. It Sseems it can be a pain in the butt and who has that much self control to not buy fish. Not me!


Haha yeah Justin, I don't have the patience either. I think after learning more about fishkeeping, there are just other easier and better ways to cycle.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

tony1928 said:


> Haha yeah Justin, I don't have the patience either. I think after learning more about fishkeeping, there are just other easier and better ways to cycle.


I agree Tony but for the tree huggers out there j/K LOL. They see it as mean to start a tank with fish due to the risks of Ammonia burn to the fish's gills. So I can see why so people prefer the fishless approach

For people that are new to fish keeping and are looking for different methods of cycling a tank. I think doing it the way Canuckgame is will help with the learning and testing of water. It's a test of patience.

For the experience fish keeper with more tank syndrome. We just grab bio out of another tank and voila instant cycle. Add a bottle of stability over a few weeks and you're golden.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

*So i think the Cycle on the 75 has stalled.... how to i get things back on t...*

That's how I do it with discus just do my daily wcs and eventually your sponges get established. 
Another fast way of getting going is buying instant aquaria substrate. Works like a charm. Add gravel, add water, add some fish. But add fidh slowly . I always encourage new tank owners to add a couple a week. Tropicals. Not discus. Don't collect and add discus from different sources. Very risky.
I've always just kept spare hydro sponges running to use to start up a new tank.
There's another good bacterial aide out there called nite out but hard to find. I give some to new tank buyers to add every second day for a bit. Works great.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

tony1928 said:


> I don't know if a fishless cycle is the best way to do things especially for a bigger tank and especially if you are planning to add a significant bioload all at one time. Just isn't very efficient. IMO I would much rather just add fish immediately and do one of two things, both of which have worked well for me. Add fish and use Seachem Stability and make sure to follow the directions to a "T." Don't skip or forget to dose. After a week to 10 days, your tank should be cycled. The other way which a lot of discus keepers do is to perform large daily WC, like 75% at least. Because you are effectively physically removing all the ammonia you are golden. If you want to scale back on the WC's, bacteria will eventually begin to build up in there and you can gradually reduce the WC % and the WC frequency. This is a bit of an art as you have to strike a balance with given the fish clean water and given the bacteria enough ammonia for food so they can build up. Keep testing your water. If things don't look right, Clean Clean water is a discus' best friend and can never hurt. If in doubt, just change water. Also make sure you treat water with Prime or Safe or some other brand of water treatment...just to be safe with your fish.


Not a smart plan, IMO. Taking shortcuts on the fishless cycle is way more trouble than it's worth. You see people recommending newbies against fishless cycling sometimes on here; but if you watch how things progress they often have problems with it. Instant cycle products are rarely as effective as we'd want them to be, daily water changes are a lot of work if you're not used to it. In short, things happen. Going that route will probably result in some ammonia posioning.

Granted, exposing the fish to a moderate amount of ammonia for a few weeks probably won't kill them; but often you'll find they're the ones that have health problems later on (chronic exposure is a thing). It pays to go by the book in the long run.

Anyway, as for the OP, having a cycle stall out is usually due to either too much ammonia/nitrite/nitrate floating around (which is why doing periodic WC's duing cycling is a good idea) or there's not enough bicarbonate in the water (bacteria use bicarbonate directly in addition to needing it as a pH buffer. I'd do a big water change (75% ish) and add some baking soda to the tank. That should get things going again.

For fishless cycling it's good to have ammonia at ~4 ppm, nitrites below 10 ppm and nitrates below 60 or so to avoid stalling. In soft water like we have on the coast the addition of baking soda is usually a good idea as well.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

Rockman said:


> Not a smart plan, IMO. Taking shortcuts on the fishless cycle is way more trouble than it's worth. You see people recommending newbies against fishless cycling sometimes on here; but if you watch how things progress they often have problems with it. Instant cycle products are rarely as effective as we'd want them to be, daily water changes are a lot of work if you're not used to it. In short, things happen. Going that route will probably result in some ammonia posioning.
> 
> Granted, exposing the fish to a moderate amount of ammonia for a few weeks probably won't kill them; but often you'll find they're the ones that have health problems later on (chronic exposure is a thing). It pays to go by the book in the long run.
> 
> ...


I'm just recommending something to the OP, that works for me and others. By no means am I saying go and shortcut the fish less cycle. I've kept fish a long time and without a doubt everyone has their own methods that work. I'm just trying to recommend something to someone to assist them so they can avoid the common frustration found in establishing a cycle. I'm most definitely not the smartest person on this or any forum. Just trying to be helpful.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Keep the ph under 7 and ammonia is 
Non toxic. Add buffers and raise ph with short lived baking soda and ammonia will
Be
Toxic. 

Just keep an eye ph isn't crashing. I'd use a bit of equilibrium for minerals if anything . JMO


Sent by tapatalk in north Burnaby


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

April said:


> Keep the ph under 7 and ammonia is
> Non toxic.


Less toxic. Below pH 7 you tend not to have to worry about acute toxicity as much (the amount of ammonia needed to actually kill something is quite high); but chronic exposure is still a concern (you could still be causing damage to the fish with moderate ammonia concentrations). It's not something you'd necessarily notice at the time; but stastically you'd get poorer growth, shorter lifespans and a somewhat increased suspectibility to disease. My goto reference for this kind of thing is the US Environmental Protection Agency. They've got a pretty comphrehensive ammonia document (warning: really dense reading). Not all of it is applicable (the guidelines are calibrated so as not to impact the most sensitive North American species... but there isn't good data that I've found for more typical aquarium fish... you'd expect them to be somewhat tougher; but by how much I don't know. For safety I prefer to assume that they're not much tougher); but it gives you a general idea.

Another concern is that nitrite toxicity isn't pH dependant; a nitrite spike would still cause problems.



April said:


> Add buffers and raise ph with short lived baking soda and ammonia will Be Toxic.


Not so much of an issue with fishless cycling (indeed, that is the point of doing it fishlessly). Anyway, you need a carbon source for the bacteria to grow. The standard nitrifying bacteria use bicarbonate in the water as their main carbon source. In really soft water like ours it's possible to run out of bicarb; which seriously limits the amount of growing the bacteria can do. Topping up with bicarb (baking soda or similar) is necessary in cases like that.



April said:


> Just keep an eye ph isn't crashing. I'd use a bit of equilibrium for minerals if anything . JMO


Equilibrium doesn't do anything for carbonate hardness; it's just a bunch of sulphate salts. It's for a different purpose (mainly bumping up GH).


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

It adds minerals and less chance of a crash. 0 hardness is risky for crash if filter doesn't keep up with ammonia.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

April said:


> It adds minerals and less chance of a crash. 0 hardness is risky for crash if filter doesn't keep up with ammonia.


A pH crash? Equilibrium doesn't do anything for pH stability. The minerals it contains aren't the ones that buffer pH. You'd need carbonate or bicarbonate for that (or alternatively phosphate); Equilibrium uses sulphate (which is typical for commerial mineral products... they package the KH and GH minerals seperately so you can adjust them individually).

Otherwise, yeah... something like equilibrium is useful in a lot of cases; you don't really want a GH of zero either.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The above discussion is interesting in its own right, but in reality, April and Tony (both discus keepers) and others are stating the simplest way. And there are very few people on here who have kept and know more about discus than April. She may not know all the science behind what she does, but all those years of success is what she has. Water changes are the simplest answer. To the OP, if you're going to raise discus, you need to change water. Forget fishless cycles and all these other methods. Your discus will thank you for it. I did daily wc for 8 weeks when I first got my discus. Ask anyone who has raised discus with any kind of long term success. They will always tell you nothing substitutes for wc. If you're doing all those wc, all this cycling is meaningless because your nitrates in a discus tank are < 5 ppm anyway. I have to constantly add nitrates (KNO3) to my discus tank to keep my plants alive. Since that first while, I've been doing 75% wc 3x a week. This is in a 100 gallon tank. Lately, my discus have won out and only moss survives in my tank now since the nutrient load with 8 discus is too low in that tank (plus hoards of plecos and tetras).

So my personal advice to you? Do a big wc and get on with the discus and the water changes. Make sure you can be around to do wc every day for a month or don't even start the discus (I assume you're getting juvies). If you're getting adults then the wc are not quite as important.

If you're really that uncomfortable with not having a cycled tank, buy, beg or borrow as many stem plants as you can and throw it into the tank and light it up. Plants preferentially uptake ammonia before nitrite before nitrate, so once again you'll have no ammonia to speak of. I haven't cycled a tank in 8 years because I either have seeded media, plants or a combination of the two.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Err... yes, that is a good point. To clarify: I'm against the "add some stability and git 'er done" plan (which trips up newbies on a fairly regular basis around here... it's slightly irritating to watch). Frequent large water changes are acceptable as well (so long as you don't start skipping them... which is tempting sometimes); so long as the water you're adding is close to the water you're replacing in temp/chemistry/etc.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

To the OP I think what everyone is trying to say is that there are many ways to do things. Some ways are easier and some ways more complex but it's important to understand what you are doing. We're supplying some of our own experiences to help you through your current situation. Best thing about BCA is that no matter what we all try to be helpful and courteous and be supportive. That's the BCA I've enjoyed being a part of since the old days of BCA.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Talks of buffers and all this chemistry stuff, always seems to strike up a debate on here.  We are all passionate about what we do and some of us are stuck in our ways or know way too much and just complicate things for others. I know I can overload a new fish keepers brain very quickly and my knowledge is limited. Ive also been set off course by others. That's why I like to keep it simple . As tony said what works for one, doesn't always work for another. Some people say you don't need all the water changes with discus too. I've heard this from reputable breeders and others with nice discus tanks. Do what ever works best for your tank and your fish keeping habits. Nothing is set in stone! Opinions are just that. Read, read, read. Ask questions 

Hey Rockman what are the readings of your tap water in Nanaimo? PH/KH/GH?


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Discus, altum angels - always always WC. If you can, once a day. Better, an hour after each feeding if you want to grow them nice and big. If you get adults, then you don't have to do so much water changes. But you still have to in the beginning. 

But for other fish, I agree with Rockman. Even your ph is below 6.5, I still try to keep my anmonia to zero. Rockman explains very well of how ph, bi-carboniate level with your water and bacteria. And that is how usually my customers asking why their tanks crash after a period of time and not having anything in to buffer the water and with very mininal water changes.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

jbyoung00008 said:


> Hey Rockman what are the readings of your tap water in Nanaimo? PH/KH/GH?


GH and KH are essentially nil (water report says I get around half a degree of hardness... my test kit doesn't read that low). pH varies a bit but is usually somewhere around neutral. Technically I'm not on Nanaimo water (I'm actually on one of the smaller water systems); so I'm not sure exactly what they get in the city.


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