# Co2 or excel?



## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

So I removed the co2 bottle from my 50G to have it hydro tested and refilled. I have been putting 2 caps of excel in each morning while the bottle is not hooked up. I'm pretty sure my tank looks better now! Plants have nice growth and algae is subsiding! I was thinking maybe just keep this excel thing happening instead of hooking the co2 tank back up? Any pros-cons you can think of besides price in the long run?

Cheers


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## target (Apr 21, 2010)

If you are worried about price on the excel, get some metricide. Same thing, but 2x as strong and 1/4 the price. As for running one or the other, I can't help you there, but I know people run both.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

target said:


> If you are worried about price on the excel, get some metricide. Same thing, but 2x as strong and 1/4 the price. As for running one or the other, I can't help you there, but I know people run both.


I second on that! $23 with tax included =) Last forever!


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## CRS Fan (Apr 21, 2010)

I use both in my high-tech tanks. The only downside of using Excel/Metricide is that it does limit plant selection.

Just my 2 cents!

Stuart


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Stuart, can you remind me how Excel limits plant selection?



CRS Fan said:


> I use both in my high-tech tanks. The only downside of using Excel/Metricide is that it does limit plant selection.
> 
> Just my 2 cents!
> 
> Stuart


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## CRS Fan (Apr 21, 2010)

Morainy said:


> Stuart, can you remind me how Excel limits plant selection?


It will melt nitella flexilis, Vals, and mini pelia to name a few.

Best Regards,

Stuart


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Thank you, Stuart.


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

How bout glosso?


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## Scholz (Apr 21, 2010)

I've had vals grow fine in excel/metricide.....


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

That would depend on dosage I would suspect. They do melt some plants.


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## plantedinvertz (Apr 21, 2010)

I think co2 is more effective and excel definitely melted my vals and anachris. The anachris tuned yellowish brown and my vals turned mushy and transparent.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

CO2 gives you more flexibility I think, but in the end, they're both just tools and can be used separately or in conjunction. Since Excel is an algaecide, it will of course prevent kill algae. But whatever the problem is that caused the algae in the first place is still there. For instance, if you have BBA, it's either fluctuating CO2, insufficient CO2, or a CO2 diffusion problem from a combination of overgrowth or maybe clogged diffusers. But as others have said, Excel is a problem in tanks with Vals and some other plants. I have a tank with Vals and my Anubias in that always has a bit of BBA on it.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the replies. The bottle passed hydro test today so i will be hooking it back up.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

If you noticed "better results" over Co2 since you started using Glutaraldehyde, this may be due to the fact that your Co2 injection was not optimized and you didn't provide enough Co2 thus you were limiting the growth of your plants and health. From my own experience and also from various other places that I have comed to read about, Co2 injection will provide a substantial faster growth rate of your plants over Excel. When I was using Metricide for a few months, I noticed the plants grew much slower.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Captured Moments said:


> If you noticed "better results" over Co2 since you started using Glutaraldehyde, this may be due to the fact that your Co2 injection was not optimized and you didn't provide enough Co2 thus you were limiting the growth of your plants and health. From my own experience and also from various other places that I have comed to read about, Co2 injection will provide a substantial faster growth rate of your plants over Excel. When I was using Metricide for a few months, I noticed the plants grew much slower.


This is precisely what I would suspect and expect.

It could come right down to the type of diffuser\reactor you were using quite frankly.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

I use a DIY inline reactor on the output of my XP3.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

I figured the reactor would work better?? Should I switch to a glass diffuser instead??


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

I think the Co2 reactor is superior to the glass diffuser imho because it is assumed that you would get near 100% diffusion of the Co2 in a reactor (if none of the Co2 escapes off the reactor. This can happen if the outflow from the XP3 filter is too strong, too fast for the size of reactor you have). The glass diffuser in top condition would give off tiny Co2 bubbles but some of it would rise to the surface and escape before they get a chance to be fully dissolved. Some people run the diffuser just below the intake of a filter so that they get sucked into the filter and get dissolved.

From a recent experience:
Tank: 50 gal planted
Pressurized Co2 (2-3 bps of Co2 reading on bubble counter).
Co2 line: Silicone airhose
Lenght of Co2 line: about 7 feet
I had the Co2 line feeding straight into the intake of the Xp3 filter. I cut a small slit on the strainer of the intake and stuck the airhose into it so that the Co2 would go right into the filter.
I discovered that even though my bubble counter was telling me that I was feeding 2-3 bubbles pe second of Co2, when I pulled the line off the intake of the filter, I noticed that hardly any Co2 was coming out. Must have been a leak somewhere.
Conclusion: Running pressurized Co2 system is pretty much reliable once set up but you need to check it on occasion to make sure you have no leak and you are actually feeding enough Co2 into the reactor or what have you (something the glass diffuser has advantage over since you can visually see the bubbles coming off the glass diffuser whereas you cannot see inside a reactor unless of course it is one of those transparent ones).
In either event, the Co2 drop checker should be a visual guide to how much Co2 you actually have. I have a crappy diy drop checker and I really should make a better one and hopefully one that reacts faster as well.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

Thats pretty much what I thought about the reactor as well. I know the co2 is getting dissolved because my drop checker changes color as the day passes. I actually had to turn the co2 down, the drop checker was yellow one day when I came home from work and the fish were gasping for air at the top. Just seems the algae gets worse with the pressurized co2 and it subsides with excel.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The problem with using a drop checker with pressurized is that it doesn't react fast enough with changing CO2 levels. So you may be running too much CO2 at the beginning of the light cycle, and not enough at the end. Or it may be a circulation problem. Is your BBA in just one place or area? Or is it all over the tank? One of the ways I've dealt with this problem with fluctuation levels is to run the CO2 15 to 30 minutes before the lights come on (depending on the light level and tank size) and then turn off before the lights go off by roughly the same amount of time. I also am not running air pumps or powerheads with venturi after the lights are out to ensure there is sufficient gas exchange once the plants start utilizing O2 instead of CO2. Not sure if that's part of your problem, but it may be something to think about.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

here is a pic of what I have been trying to get rid of for a while now. I have tried spraying the plants when I did a water change with excel water mix 10-1. I have increased my pressurized co2 so the drop checker was almost yellow. I have pulled the plants out and completely stripped the leaves that had this on them and it keeps coming back. It started to receed when I unhooked my co2 bottle to get it tested and refilled and was puttign 2 caps of excel in each morning.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Are you using ferts?


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

50G tank, EI dosed, Gh booster once a week after water changes. Pressurized co2 approx 2 bubbles per second, drop checker is blueish green in the morning and a light green in the evening. Co2 comes on 20 min before the lights come on and shuts off 20 min before the lights go off. 2x96W 6700k coralife fixture but only have one bulb in use the other stays unplugged and they are on 2 hours in the morning and 6 hours in the evening. I have even hooked up an air pump that runs for 6 hours at night to see if that helps.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't have a solution for you, but two areas to investigate are:

1. Is it just the canister distributing the CO2? Or do you have other powerheads in the tank?

2. Perhaps you need to start the CO2 slightly earlier as it sounds like the CO2 levels are rising through the photoperiod, based on your drop checker readings. Fluctuating CO2 is one culprit of BBA.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes just the Xp3 no power head. I have the spray bar vertically in the back right corner of the tank directed at the front middle of the tank. I drilled out the spray bar holes so there is no slow in the water flow the canister runs at full tilt always. The fish swin pretty good when in the current from teh filter, not overpowering but pretty good. I watch them go in and out of the current they seem to like doing this and its interesting for me to watch them do this. I will adjust my timers tonight maybe try having the co2 come on 30 min prior to lights.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

Yeahh... kind of difficult to pinpoint the problem in your tank but here's a few pointers I can share.
When your lights are on for only 2 hrs in the morning, is the Co2 kicked in beforehand? 2 hrs is a very short time. Plants require a certain amount of time from the moment light is received to start photosynthesis. You could be stressing the plants as a result of the short period. 
6 hrs in the evening is kind of short as well. I would suggest increasing the photo period to 8 - 10 hrs. 
96 Watts CFL should be enough light for the 50 gal even though I never liked them and the reflector is very poor. I would place it in the category of low to mid light level. How old is the bulb?
Basically plants need 3 things to grow: sufficient light, carbon (Co2 or Flourish Excel), nutrients (Macro and Micro nutrients: EI or other, Flourish or CSM or other).
I would suggest you test the Ammonia, Nitrate, and Phosphate level and see if you are within range.
I would say that light and the carbon is the most important. If there is enough light to drive photosynthesis, then you must have enough carbon so that the plants can produce the carbohydrate to form tissue. Nutrients is the least important of all 3 components.
Check and recheck the Co2 component to be sure you have enough of it. Supplementing with Excel is a good idea to cover any shortfall in the short term and to help rid of your current Algae.


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## t-bore (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes I have the co2 turn on during both light periods. I used to have the lighting perion 12 hours then backed it to 10 then to 8. Thanks everyone for your suggestions and input. i have a few things to try now.


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