# new substrates and plants are going bye bye



## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Hello all,

Over the weekend, I picked up some eco-complete soil as I had just plane gravel before. While I thought this would be more healthy and promote the growth of my plants, quite the opposite is happening. I was wondering if it is common for plants to die off after getting a huge boost of nutrients from the soil and regrow?

Leaves are turning into a rotting brown. Some of the plant roots have wrapped around it's own rhizome. do I have to free them or should I just leave them as is and pull off all the brown leaves? 

TIA


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## DR1V3N (Apr 22, 2010)

You might wanna run a quick test of your water parameters and post them. Also a little blurb on your lighting and which plants are being affected should get you some good answers.


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## TomC (Apr 21, 2010)

What kind of plants are they? Crypts will often melt and then regrow if there is a change.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

are you still adding salt to the tank and is this your java fern you are talking about?

Here is an explanation on why salt and planted tank = bad idea.
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/freshwater-chat-9/water-parameters-surrey-10769/index2.html#post94094


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Use abit of ada.....it will help with the nutrients for the plants.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

i don't have the test kit to give you the figures for my water parameters.

I am no longer adding salt. Been adding buckets of just fresh water now and slowly bringing the salt content down.

Yes, I am referring to the java ferns. 

Current set up.
1x6700k 3ft fluorescent grow light
1xantic 3ft florescent (i know, working on getting another 6700k in there atm)
Seachem flourish comprehensive once a week
no CO2
eco-complete substrate


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

When you say brown, does the plant look something like the fern in the link below?

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz171/genetao/Deficiencies/P1100178.jpg

Kind of clear? If that is the case, then this was previous damage from the salt and just need some tender loving care to bring the plant back to health. not too sure about roots wrapping around the rhizome. Mine tend to just grow downward even when floating in mid water.

You only need to changed out roughly 70% of the water to drop the salt level down if you are doing small changes at a time. Roughly 6x 4 gallon bucket worth.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

edge, that picture made me cringe


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

kinda like that. but a darker brown.

i've done about 15gallons of fresh water so far probably.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

you should see the whole tank . someone was over dosing fertilizer.

More like this?

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz171/genetao/Deficiencies/P1100145.jpg
D

Did you replaced all the gravel with eco complete or just add on top? Did you rinse or add directly to the tank?

I would stop adding fertilizer for now as eco complete is loaded with nutrients. Someone else will have to answer about adding eco complete with water still in the tank. normally substrate is added in a complete new setup.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Edge! It's like the bottom leaf of that picture! 

I removed half the gravel and place the Eco complete on the side where the gravel had been removed from. So left side, Eco complete, right side, gravel. I didn't wash the Eco complete before putting it into the tank cause the packaging said not too...

So stop fertilizing for a couple of weeks I guess?


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Finish doing water change and wait for a week. See if there is any new growth and go from there. If you do not have fish in the tank, just do a large water change at once and get it over with.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

i wouldn't recommend stopping the water column ferts. Eco may be full of nutrients, but you still want your plants sucking as much out of the water column as possible so the eco doesn't exhaust as quickly. I consider nutrient rich substrates as a backup for when the column ferts dont supply enough to heavy rooters. Plus with all the ferns he may not get enough nitrates and could get fern melt  This is all under the assumption he's fertilizing in the first place


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Here is the link to the photos and what other said about his tank. Jlam runs a fairly low tech setup with NO T5 and no CO2 injection.

What Deficiency???? (With Pictures) - *56K Warning* - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

I think its the salt you were adding. 50% water change and start dosing macro's and micro's using a dosing schedule. I have a high fish load and still dose N.
Use E.I. Light
Dose N, P, K...2 times a week
Dose flourish comp + iron... 2 times a week.
Plus gh booster after water change.
how big is this tank and what kind of lights?


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Edge is right. I am running a low tech set up. The joys of being a student with a hobby:s 

Ubroke, I am running two 3ft tubes. One 6700k grow light and one antics light which I am planning to get rid of for another grow light. The tank is a 33g. Also, I recently just got into the whole planted tank and am very confused with all the info you have given me. I will look it up when I have more time but my schedule is extremely busy already. I think I will focus on bringing the salt content down by pulling out water and adding more in for the next few days. How long does it usually take for plants to improve to the point where you can actually see that the changes made are helping?


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

What was the salt for?

if the water doesnt have any more salt, and you have a decent bio load then everything should start turning around...

I regret doing large water changes on my ebjd tank...everything was fine and dandy with the plants when I never touched the tank.

Stupid me I did a 80% wc aswell as threw out the filter floss and added ceramic rings... I think the combination of both caused the tank to re cycle and all my plants started dying. I will replant the tank once it stabilizes...I had to pull out a few of the plants because of this tho!!


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Hard to say. I had a similar problem long ago, but mine was excess calcium from adding too much in a short time. For a good month, I thought I had lost the plant because all the old growth just kept on melting. I would say when you see new growth on the java fern. Once the leaves start melting, the leaves will melt completely. Most likely any growth that is already on the plant will melt as well.

large water change in a tank with high TDS doesn't work well. There will be too big of a change which will put the plants and fish in shock. if your TDS is <150 (300 micro Siemens), then large water change doesn't poses too much issues. I do 50% water change to all my tanks.

I think he was using salt to raise the electrolyte (TDS)

here is the post prior to this one.

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/plan...ne-tell-me-why-my-plants-arent-growing-10441/


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

yes, that's what I put the salt in there for.... lol! thanks so much for the help guys!


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Edge, I have some java ferns in one tank that look somewhat like the ones in this picture that you posted. What's causing the browning? Over dosing? Or the opposite?


EDGE said:


> you should see the whole tank . someone was over dosing fertilizer.
> 
> More like this?
> 
> ...


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

picture and water parameter will help. Can't tell without picture. If you are not adding anything to the water, then nitrate.


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

jlam...ok 3 ft bulbs but what kind of fixture....t5,t8,t12,pc??

You may not have enough light even for a low tech since one bulb is an antic.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

His are T5. If he replace the other actinic with 6700K, he has enough light for a lot of low to medium light plants.

1.27 wpg of T5 over 33g.

I only use 1.5 wpg of HO T5 over my 75g.


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

Morainy,

Tell us about your tank. 
Lighting?..Tank size?...substrate?...ferts?....other plants affected?.
Have you moved anything?...when it started?...etc..


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

edge....
ok that helps...
I agree with your 1.5 wpg of t5ho...t5ho are intense lights. I think more of a pain to peoples tanks then they help in most cases...they kind of throw the wpg thing right out the window..


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

HO T5 = 2x NO T5. I know what you mean. That is why I swapped out my 4x 55w PC for HO T5 when they became more common a few years ago.

Comparative sake, I have 6 NO T5 over the tank of lighting. 

The lumens/par is actually higher on 2x NO T5 than on 1x HO T5. I looked into this when I was deciding what light to swap out on my 2nd tier orchid tank a month ago. 

I went with 2x HO T5 in the end cause I rather have 2 tubes over 4 tubes of NO T5.


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

edge..
How do you have your lighting mounted?..


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

I DIY them with Workhorse 7 ballast. 3 pair of icecap water resistant endcap mounted to a high polish aluminum T12 reflector over the 75g.

The one over the 75g is mounted in an unfinished fish cabinet.

I used to have another set which was hang over my emersed setup at my last house. 

Now I just built support legs to keep the light up over the 75g emersed.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Is it possible to convert a normal output to a high output light by simply adding a ballast? I hear lots of people over driving their normal output lamps except the tubes don't last as long.


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

Nice...

That t12 reflector really does help with spread i'd imagine


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Yup. quite cheap being that this is commercial reflector and not aquarium light reflector. commercial reflector are designed for maximum spread. aquarium reflector is designed for spot focus. I just had to bent the reflector so the 2 flap aims almost straight down. They aren't as efficient as the aquarium reflector.

Honestly, you will not save that much more with DIY retrofit kit now a days compare to the sunlight tek retrofit kit which JLaquatics carries. 

The difference is usually in the parts. Rather then water resistant end cap and the aquarium grade reflector, DIY kit end up with standard HO T5 end caps (tombstone) and commercial reflector. Have to build the power cord outof plugs and wires. etc. 

Don't cheap out on the end caps if this is strictly for open top aquarium use. I used them for emersed setup where water is much further away from the light. 

Jlam: 

Some people do convert, but lighting supply store usually tell you not to as the end caps and wiring are not designed for the higher load. more heat, more current more hazardous.

You have enough light for a lot of plants. Keep it simple for now because the more light you add, the steeper the learning curve.

ADD: Sunblaster HO T5 are relatively cheap. I was looking into them and 4ft is around $25-30 depending on location per fixture (1 tube)

Current emersed setup. Bottom is terrestrial orchid.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

I will try to find one. Another 6700k at island pet is like 17 i think only. was thinking about just grabbing another one of those...


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Call up a lighting store and see if they have any NO T5 GE 6500k bulbs. I know albrite lighting in Port Coquitlam has them but they are really far from you. Not sure what you be looking up in the yellow pages because you want the ones that is more like a distributor format than a household decorative lighting store.

Shouldn't cost that much. HO T5 bulb GE starcoat cost around $15 each. I am guessing NO T5 should be <$10


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

i called a few lighting shops in the lower mainland and all of them told me to just go to an aquarium shop...

on the other hand, today, i was at homedepot and found it in a soft white...but i don't think that's going to work too well.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

soft white is more of an incandescent yellow. Personally, I use a mixture of soft white/bright white (depending what is available) and daylight. Some people prefer all daylight bulbs because soft white gives the tank a yellowish glow.

Ask for T5 daylight or T5 6500k. dont say its for aquarium use because they don't carry 'aquarium' bulb. If they ask what is the purpose of T5, say to fit inside a T5 fixture...

What length of T5 are you looking for? 24", 36", 48" are standard size and easier to find at lighting store.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

I am looking for a 36''.

Turns out, the antinics lamp that I THOUGHT I had in there was really a pink colormax lamp. i really like the color it puts out in the tank and would prefer to keep it in there, but the growth of my plants are more important to me at this point.

i pulled this off a website:
"Coralife T5 High Output Colormax Lamp provides full spectrum light for a warm glow. Enhances the natural beauty of fish and plants. Energy efficient, high output lamps provide significantly more light than conventional fluorescent lamps. Ideal for bringing out the natural color of tropical fish and plants."

It probably enhances the color of the plants but probably does nothing for the growth right?


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

colormax is perfect. Just finish doing the water change and go from there. Test the water again after water change. eco complete should provide some gH and kH


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Nice! Should I trim all the brown leaves off? Seems like the whole plant is just melting/rotting away... Should I just chop everything down to the rhizomes? Lol
They look hideous!


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

Just remove anything that falls off. Patience grass hopper..


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Lol! Oh alright. 

The water change is pretty well complete. I guess I should be fertilizing just yet right?


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## ubr0ke (Jan 10, 2011)

I would dose ferts...If you have changed out water to bring salt down its now time to give these plants what they need..
what ferts do you have? lets get you on some dosing


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

I just have the seachem flourish comprehensive at the moment.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Have you noticed any new growth on the plant? To keep things simple, the 2 main fertilizer most people use are 

KNO3 (potassium nitrate) and KH2PO4 (mono potassium phosphate). aquaflora nurseries, one of the sponsor, has them.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

yes. i think there is a tad bit of new growth. Either the brown hasn't gotten to it yet or it's new birth <fingers crossed>

so would the seachem flourish help at all? and should i be introducing it to the tank or wait a lil bit longer for the water to settle out more?


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

flourish do help with the trace element. Continue dosing with the bottle instruction. once a week. If the brown hasn't gotten to the newer growth, then you have solved your melting issue. If you noticed there is blackening on newer growth, then you would need Potassium nitrate.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

gotcha! i will keep you guys posted! may take a few weeks though..


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

finally! the new leaves are starting to grow =)


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

ahh good to know. 2x NO T5 pack enough punch for decent growth


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