# Why do discus keepers worry about bio filtration?



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I am curious as to why discus keepers who change 80 - 100% of the water and run barebottomed (BB) tanks even worry about biological filtration. With those frequency of water changes, there is no ammonia to even feed the bacteria. Why not just run an airstone?

I know this can be an inflammatory subject, hence I asked here instead of on Simply. Before I get into anything, I like to do my research, and this is one topic that has confounded me no matter how often I research it. Thoughts?


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

hmmm if you end up feeding them as often and as much as I do...there will be A TON of poop build up by the end of the day even with daily water changes, 2 sponge filters, a rena xp2 with prefilter sponge (in a 65gal) 

I know from experience that if I don't clean the sponges regularly and they get dirty, my water becomes cloudy right away and even water changes can't bring the water condition back to tiptop shape. 

Do keep in mind though that I've got juveniles I'm trying to grow out. Though even with adults, you still want to try to keep the water clean during the 23-24hrs between water changes, and to do that, you need bio-filtration.

*edit...canister is xp2, not xp3*


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm not sure if you've ever had plecos, but I can assure you, nothing can poop like a large panaque after a yam or zucchini feeding. That's 1 lb of food in 24 hours produced as waste.

Yup, you're actually reinforcing my point. The detritus buildup on your sponge filters is causing a bacteria bloom. My suggestion is that if you don't have sponges or any filtration, and just clean all the gunk out by doing 80%+ water changes in your tank every day and vacuuming out all of the poop and detritus, where would the need for filtration come from? Your sponge prefilter is not even allowing any detritus from getting in to your canister. You can accomplish the same thing with a closed loop pump with a sponge on the inlet end, no?

I hope I'm not being argumentative, but my engineering background is struggling to understand what principles are at work that requires the filter if you remove all the poo and detritus. In your case, you're not removing it all, so there is accumulation on the sponges.


----------



## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't mean to distract from this thread, but your question reminded me that I have learned a lot about discus since coming to BCA and am impressed by the level of care that discus owners give their fish. Just going away on vacation must take a lot of planning.


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

well, as I said, you need some form of filtration to take care of the waste produced constantly. It isn't possible to be changing the water constantly. Without any filtration, water condition won't be stable.

When I first started with this group of discus, I was only running one single small sponge filter and doing massive water changes everyday. The water was still often cloudy. It was not until after I added more filtration that the water cleared up.

I did ask myself the same question you are asking now before. But has since come to terms with the need for bio-filtration. Not quite sure how to explain it but its just something that I've learned from experience.

I don't have a panaque who eats 1lb of food a day but I do have 3 greedy BNPs who poop like nuts. Their poop is different from my discus though (dunna why...digestive system different??). The BNPs are eating exactly what my discus are....they have become super lazy and doesn't eat algae anymore! +.+

Maybe someone else can better explain this??

p.s. you'd be surprised how much detritus gets into the canister even with the prefilter...my discus' poop become kinda powdery after a while (before I can do my daily water change). Without filtration........water just becomes super cloudy.


----------



## target (Apr 21, 2010)

There are breeders in Asia who rely solely on water changes. But they do multiple 100% changes a day.

The water will cloud if you don't have some sort of filtration, but the higher the percentage of WC, the less filtration required. I had 2 sponges filters running on my 46 when my discus were babies. They got a 80% change a day and I never had to clean the filters. Probably could have gotten away with just having airstones and no sponge.


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

target said:


> I had 2 sponges filters running on my 46 when my discus were babies. They got a 80% change a day and I never had to clean the filters..


lol maybe I am feeding mine too much. Even with daily wc's, I still need to clean my sponges at least once a week. They get SO dirty.


----------



## Sharkbait (Jun 15, 2010)

That's why I stick with planted discus tanks. Makes life a lot easier


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

Sharkbait said:


> That's why I stick with planted discus tanks. Makes life a lot easier


and pretty too ^ ^


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

your idea of not using sponge filters would work if you do 80-100% WC after every feeding every time. (2-3 times daily). As Daniel mentioned, this is what Asian breeders do.

But for an average Discus keeper, 3 x 100% WC every day wont work and to compliment that they have sponge filters. Discus poop a lot too


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Interesting input Athena. Conversely, would it make sense to have huge mechanical filtering with no bio? Such is in multiple AC110's? If it's just removal of detritus, wouldn't pure mechanical filtration, such as a large sump (for the added water volume) with just a filter sock do just as well?

And Sharkbait, I don't have any discus yet, but I spend probably 5 hours a week doing maintenance, pruning changing water and unclogging intakes in my planted tanks, so I don't think planted tanks will make the discus tanks any easier.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Smiladon said:


> But for an average Discus keeper, 3 x 100% WC every day wont work and to compliment that they have sponge filters. Discus poop a lot too


You mean Josephl and Embersmon are not your average discus keeper?


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

What do you mean by mechanical filters??

I just have more sponges and eheim substrate pro in my canister. 

So...wouldn't that make the canister both a mechanical and biological filter??

I've never really looked into what a sump is besides something that is hooked up to the tank and usually places underneath and that they are super awesome and handy for water top up or something....oh, and that people usually make them themselves XD


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

athena said:


> What do you mean by mechanical filters??
> 
> I just have more sponges and eheim substrate pro in my canister.
> 
> So...wouldn't that make the canister both a mechanical and biological filter??


Yep, it's both. And that's my question. If the objective is to remove as much detritus as possible why not run more filter pads instead of wasting space on the EhfiSubstrat Pro. I run my filters that way as I'm after bio, but I only do a max of 2 water changes a week of 50% and I have a much heavier bioload than many discus tanks (30+ plecos and 4 cichlids of which the biggest is about 10"). With it being planted, my nitrates reach zero essentially every other day if I don't dose the tank with KNO3. Many discus keepers say that won't work for discus, and thus the reason why I'm asking this question. It seems bio is not as important as the water changes.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to directly answer the question. Mechanical as in filter pads, sponges, anything that trips dirt, including Ehfimech from Eheim.


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

I think my original reasoning for putting eheim substrate pro in the canister was cuz I didn't want detritus to build up and not be 'broken down' fast enough?? Thus the eheim substrate pro, for more bio-filter to break down the gunk in the canister??

Edit: I think some people do use only HOBs jammed with sponge pads in their discus tanks. My only concern with running a lot of them would be the water flow. With sponge filters, they are air driven (the ones I use anyways) and so water current isn't as strong. With canisters, there are always ways to make the water flow more gentle (spray bar, aiming against glass or something, etc).


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Interesting thread.
Ammonia is always being produced in any aquarium. Regardless of water change, there should be a biological filter present. I have seen discus set ups where there was only mechanical filtration and massive regular water changes. Yes it can be done but if you miss a change, not good. Why would you not want to bother with some sort of bio filter? No negative after all.


----------



## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

In my opinion..

The negatives of having BIofiltration is the nitrates. If you are doing big water changes throughout the day Boifilters would contribute to poorer water quality not better, In the case of air stones only in a juvie grow out with water changes throughout day..


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The negative I'm thinking of is $. Why spend $300 on an Eheim 2078 when 2 x $20 sponge filters plus a $30 air pump will do that same. I do appreciate the fact that ammonia is continuously being generated though.

Another method, as someone suggested above, is a continuous trickle water changer, I guess.

Anyway, I think there is enough input I have now to suggest that there is enough justification for a proper biofilter. And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don't have enough time for multiple big water changes a day and plan on filtering the cube with my 2078 and using substrate. 

Thanks for the input everyone, especially Athena.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

ibenu said:


> In my opinion..
> 
> The negatives of having BIofiltration is the nitrates. If you are doing big water changes throughout the day Boifilters would contribute to poorer water quality not better, In the case of air stones only in a juvie grow out with water changes throughout day..


Right. The only thing bio has over no bio is that nitrate is not as toxic as ammonia or nitrite. If you transport all the ammonia out, there is no reason to have bio filtration. Which comes back to my original question in a big circle.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> The negative I'm thinking of is $. Why spend $300 on an Eheim 2078 when 2 x $20 sponge filters plus a $30 air pump will do that same. I do appreciate the fact that ammonia is continuously being generated though.
> 
> Another method, as someone suggested above, is a continuous trickle water changer, I guess.
> 
> ...


Sponge filters are Biological. They would suffice with regular water change.


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

lol well to transport all the ammonia out, you would be constantly doing wc's, like the trickle method maybe? Though you would need to hook up the tank to a clean (new) water source and the old water to be dumped instead of reused (like in a betta barrack system with the sump)

To be able to do this would be awesome though. But I think I would still have at least a sponge filter in the tank just in case.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

ibenu said:


> In my opinion..
> 
> The negatives of having BIofiltration is the nitrates. If you are doing big water changes throughout the day Boifilters would contribute to poorer water quality not better, In the case of air stones only in a juvie grow out with water changes throughout day..


If the filter is creating Nitrate that is not a bad thing. If they were not, would you not have accumulating ammonia instead? With the water changes the Nitrate would be decreased exponentially, Ammonia on the other hand would be much more dangerous even at low levels.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

athena said:


> lol well to transport all the ammonia out, you would be constantly doing wc's, like the trickle method maybe? Though you would need to hook up the tank to a clean (new) water source and the old water to be dumped instead of reused (like in a betta barrack system with the sump)
> 
> To be able to do this would be awesome though.


A constant slow trickle with our tap water would not be good due to the lack of minerals.


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> A constant slow trickle with our tap water would not be good due to the lack of minerals.


Not from the tap, my fish would hate me for it >,<

Instead, from a large water barrel. Though in that case, I would want to have two so that while one is being used, the other can be filled up and aged and treated before use. That'll keep the water nice and stable I think??


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

athena said:


> Not from the tap, my fish would hate me for it >,<
> 
> Instead, from a large water barrel. Though in that case, I would want to have two so that while one is being used, the other can be filled up and aged and treated before use. That'll keep the water nice and stable I think??


Ah OK. Yes that would be a nice system. A gravity feed with an overflow in the aquarium, pretty easy actually.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Sponge filters are Biological. They would suffice with regular water change.


Yep, but the way many discus keepers use it (on Simply some people clean their sponge filters almost every day), so essentially, they are using them as mechanical filters. Or maybe I'm not understanding the reasoning behind the madness? Maybe it's related to the slime coat shedding? I know I asked April why the glass needed to be wiped down after water changes and slime coat shedding was pointed out as the reasoning.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Yep, but the way many discus keepers use it (on Simply some people clean their sponge filters almost every day), so essentially, they are using them as mechanical filters. Or maybe I'm not understanding the reasoning behind the madness? Maybe it's related to the slime coat shedding? I know I asked April why the glass needed to be wiped down after water changes and slime coat shedding was pointed out as the reasoning.


I guess it would depend on what water source they were using to clean the sponges. Makes more sense to treat them as biological, they can still be cleaned daily without messing them up.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Ah OK. Yes that would be a nice system. A gravity feed with an overflow in the aquarium, pretty easy actually.


You don't even need that. A guy on cichlid-forum pumps it up from his basement using a solenoid and a float valve from his sump. I believe someone on the Island (can't remember his username) uses the Chemilizer to mix chemicals like prime and other additives for his EBJD's auto water changing system. The problem is the allocation of that space, in my case.


----------



## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> You don't even need that. A guy on cichlid-forum pumps it up from his basement using a solenoid and a float valve from his sump. I believe someone on the Island (can't remember his username) uses the Chemilizer to mix chemicals like prime and other additives for his EBJD's auto water changing system. The problem is the allocation of that space, in my case.


I was keeping low tech but yes, solenoid and float valve, giddy up!


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> I was keeping low tech but yes, solenoid and float valve, giddy up!


hahaha..true, in my case, my tank is on the main floor, so the barrel would have to be on the roof (no attic).


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

Wow I would love to have a system like that. My mom and the tenants wouldn't be too happy with me though XD and definitely don't know much about DIYs


----------



## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

Wouldnt things (waste/food) have to sit for more than a few hours to have an ammonia spike?

The fish to gallon ratio is of importance too when it comes to people who use no biological
or mechanical and just depend on water changes. I was referencing some breeders on Simply who use only air stones and water changes with great success..

Wattley did an experiment with no filtration an many water changes daily and reported an incredible difference in the size at the end of it..

Massive Discus Growth - Jack Wattley Experiment - Discus Fish Guide

I think in some cases it may be that anecdotal evidence leads us to believe something is better when it may be another factor all together that has led to the "good" thing we are looking to reproduce. That may be the case when it comes to why no filtration at all has "appeared" to be a good thing....


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Interesting article Lisa. Thanks for the link. I'll have to give it a read when I get home tonight.


----------



## athena (Apr 22, 2010)

Awesome read. Thank you for posting it!


----------



## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

Fortunate for my hobby but sad for my pocket book I will be having alot of time off soon, like unemployed kinda time off and I look forward to getting some discus fry from other members or april (wink wink nudge nudge) to try this out first hand, only the 7-8 time a day water change one as whom ever has the fry can do the daily


Mmmwaaa ha ha ha!!! I look forward to seeing if I can duplicate results...


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

ibenu said:


> Fortunate for my hobby but sad for my pocket book I will be having alot of time off soon, like unemployed kinda time off and I look forward to getting some discus fry from other members or april (wink wink nudge nudge) to try this out first hand, only the 7-8 time a day water change one as whom ever has the fry can do the daily
> 
> Mmmwaaa ha ha ha!!! I look forward to seeing if I can duplicate results...


I certainly hope that you share the progress with us 

This would be awesome to replicate.

I myself am trying to study the behavioral patterns of Angels with their fry. I will most likely be posting my findings in about 2 months  Maybe it will be similar for Discus too and it might very well be a future project for me.

Sorry about your "time off"


----------



## April (Apr 21, 2010)

well..when i get shipments in i start with basically uncycled sponges and large wcs daily..it slowly builds..but..i have to be very careful of what i feed. i wouldnt dare do beefheart or flake. i start off with bloodworms..slowly adding.its not jsut the poop..its the amount of ammonia they put out with their gills . trickle is great. you could trickle through some aragonite or leave aragonite in the tank for minerals to help our near ro water. 
if the filters dont keep up..guaranteed a ph slide that i know. 
the asians dont use sponges for fry or you get bounces with the nitrogen cycle . but..they do use sponges on their growout and holding tanks..also doing large daily wcs . main purpose of the wcs is for growth and keeping nitrates down below 5.Forrest basically said if you cant do a wc one day..then your better to not feed than to feed and not do a wc. with discus shape is all in relation to the amount of care and time spent on your fish. one breeder in asia had poor shaped bds..as the fellow said well low money for bds..so i dont put all my care into them..as they arent a high selling strain. so my supplier told him if you do..put alot of care into them..i could sell them and take as many as you have. he since put alot of care into the same fish..and now they are grade AA and have beautiful shape red eyes..and very sought after. same fish..same parents..better care and now better shape. 
with bare bottom..its different than with gravel..which holds onto some bacteria for biofiltration. alot of people who are used to substrates end up with ph crashes or issues with bare bottom..as they dont realize how fast things can go bad. 
mr. 2wheels..brewmaster started doing an experiment on simply wiht no bio but then he went on holidays so had to stop..but he was measuring daily ammonia and ph to see if it can be done. ill try find his thread.


----------



## April (Apr 21, 2010)

ibenu tiny babies are coming in another week or so. from dale. you could do two tanks..same parameters , feeds, etc..and try two different things...i dont have the time. but i will be keeping some for me. or we can have a group each to compare.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks April, I'll go and search for Al (brewmaster)'s thread.

I guess the bottom line is stability. Everything done is to try to keep everything as stable as possible and the bio filtration as a backup.


----------



## April (Apr 21, 2010)

ok heres his response..some of his words are messed...brewmaster doesnt sleep..well 4 hours a night..so if his sentence isnt great..well..thats why. lol. 
i messaged him.
I remember that thread...acid water is the key....If the water is acidic the toxicity of the ammonia and nitrite decreases...but that doesn't mean you can't go without water changes..... The asians get away away with no bios with uch water...In time with no biofilter....The nitrates would go up with no wate changes and the Nitrites and ammonia would also.....and though these are less toxic... the higher they go...the more toxic they will be , just because the PPMs go up and alot of something slightly toxic is as bad as a little of something very toxic.
-al


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks April. Someone else just privately messaged me the same thing. And that's the reason the drop and plop method works in releasing the bags. When you open the bags, the CO2 is released, raising the pH rapidly and creating toxic conditions. That's why the bags should not be opened while the bags are floating to equalize the temps.


----------



## chillin (Apr 21, 2010)

the point here,is as with any aquarium is the water quality; it is a closed system and the load changes continually,with discus water quality is the secret along with lots of feedings especially in growing big fat healthy discus. this seems to work for me..chillin


----------



## April (Apr 21, 2010)

heh there chillin..we want to see pics of your discus....now this guy knows how to grow discus!! its all those good minerals in 100 mile house water. ok well..and the caretaker.


----------



## chillin (Apr 21, 2010)

thank you april , for all your help,and information..you are the sifu..and especially for the incredible discus ..will get kelly to post pictures ..im not too computer savy..i believe there are a few in my avatar album..chillin


----------

