# Breeding project: Electric Blue Jack dempsey!



## AWW

Hey guys,

So I have been debating several new projects, and can't wait to get started on this one. I will be using two 120 gallon tanks, a 35 gallon, and (At times) my 160 gallon community. Later on, A year from now, I will need to acquire one more larger tank, or convert my 160 gallon to grow-out. My goal is to produce 50 EBJD a month, one year from now, providing weekly updates of all tanks.

I Instantly grabbed these two Electric blue jack Dempsey that Kevin brought Brought them into IPU Burnaby a while back. They are settled in, and are constantly lip locking, so they are ready for mates. I am assuming they are related, so I am looking for more electric blues to add to this project, PM me if you have any for sale 

Those of you unfamiliar with breeding Electric blue jack demseys (EBJD), here are the challenges faced with breeding this fish.
- EBJD need to be bread back with a regular jack dempsey, as If you breed two Electric blues together, the fry are too weak to survive. The complicating factor is this does not produce EBJD, It produces a jack dempsey with blue gene genetics (BGJD). Once the BGJD hit breeding size, they need to be bread back with an EBJD, resulting in 30 - 50% EBJD, and the rest BGJD.
- They Very sensitive to nitrates.
- Electric blues heal slower, and often do not regrow fins. This makes breeding challenging, as fish do not recover quickly. If fish are over bread, they will not thrive.
- They also grow slower than regular jack dempseys, and usually stay smaller (However, I believe this is due to poor genetics, some people have raised 9" fish). 
- EBJD have a shorter life span. They usually live 3 - 5 years, where the regular jacks can live around 10. This could also be because of poor genetics.

The exciting news, is the EBJD line is constantly improving. Every time someone breeds an EBJD with a regular JD, they are improving the genetic diversity of the breed. Although there are lots of unhealthy EBJD out there, If they are selectively bread right, they can bring beauty and size, even past 4". The two EBJD I have started with are flawless in my eyes, and are exactly what I want to breed for. EBJD have varying levels of black on there body, and copper coloring. These ones have little copper coloring, and lots of black markings. Also, they have good body shape, full foreheads, and full fins.

So I have gotten two female regular gene, one 3" and one 5". Nothing special about these guys. I would love to aquire some WC female jack dempseys for this project, but everything in vancouver is always captive bread. I put the 5" female, and the two male electric blues in a 120 gallon on 2 days ago. She harassed the electric blues. She is the same size as them, and more aggressive. My solution was to add the 3" female today, as well as a 4.5" male green terror. The idea behind another species is to relieve aggression a bit until a pair form. Instant improvement, the aggression is now balanced.

When I finally have some EBJD for sale, (1.5 years from now), I will be selling them at 3" for $35.00 each. Hopefully I can supply some stores eventually if all goes well. If any one has a blue gene jack dempsey that is female, let me know! I would start breeding and raising EBJD now. Even if its just to borrow.

Equipment: The first 120 gallon tank.

Fluval FX5 - Ceramic bio media, Ceramic pre filter, and sponge. 
Ehiem 300 watt heater
X2 3' T5 lighting - on timer. 10 hours a day.
3mm Black sand
Mopani wood
terracotta Pots (Will add later)
Optima air pump

Maintenance:

Feeding Twice a day
Waterchange 50% twice a week, No siphon required
- Using salt, SappGuard Ph
- Aiming for GH: 6 KH:3 PH:7.0
Filter cleaning every three months

The lighting in this tank is dimmer, and the dark substrate is really affecting the color of the Electric blues.


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## AWW

Weekly update. The dominant male has reduced color dramatically. I have added some 6" geophagus to the tank, and he has dropped all sings of mating with the larger female at this point. These guys are getting meals 3 times a day, and I'm still keeping up with water changes. Once I remove the geos I will likely go to weekly water changes. The smaller female has probably grown .5 inch this week... lol.

Thought for this update I would do faceshots of the group.

First up is the sub-dominant male. Was the dominant when I have them in the 160 gallon a few months ago. My favorite of the group for sure. He has a stunning face pattern,




Next up is the current dominant male. When I got these two, they were the same size. This one is filling out more than the other for sure, and has intensified in color. Still healing from lip locking a few weeks ago. Note the darker eyes.



And here are the females. The first one is the larger, the second the smaller.




Still hoping to add 2 females and 1 EBJD to the group.


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## Canadian_Aqua_Farm

I'm really looking forward to following your progress with the project, you have clearly done your research on EBJDs!


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## cadillac_jack

nice set up. well done.. good luck


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## AWW

Weekly update.

Dominant is becoming a terror in the tank. Constantly chases the smaller female. This is great to see, I really want to try and keep these guys nice a lively. Many EBJD keepers say they become inactive at this size. I think this is due to genetics as well. The sub-dominant always swims away from the dominant in chase, and never tries to fight him off. However, They still express "healthy" aggression, as they swim side by side flaring at each other.

The reason for weekly updates, Is to document these guys more. Many breeders have bread EBJD, but few document. I would like to change that  Also, I want to get better at aquarium photography, and these guys are fun to shoot!


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## mollyb

this is a fun project, I'm not sure many non professionals have actually had much success breeding these guys, although I bet many have tried. I know a few that tried and gave up. Good luck to you. 
Your photos are coming out great, I would love to know how you do them. One suggestion, and I am no expert, but a few of the shots seem to loose focus on one fish, maybe increasing (opening) the aperature would help. I know for macro shots this is useful. Nice job anyways, good looking fish and tank.


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## Keri

Beautiful fish, good luck with the breeding, I'd like to see more healthy ebjd's out there


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Superb start on a worthwhile project. Good luck to you. 

Anthony


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## cadillac_jack

AWW, I had a couple of questions for you and thought you might be able to answer them.. With EBJD's they are not a hybrid but rather a colour morph correct.And you know Im a big fan of hybrids but i guess what my question is I thought that MOST ebjd males were sterile? , if this is incorrect please just let me know. but if this were a true fact wouldnt it be easier to achieve the ebjd's by crossing the ebjd females with the standard blue gene males? then at least 100% of your egg layers would be fully fertile and you would have a higher likely hood of having fry.

I remember looking at the ebjd projects and for some reason through the fog in my brain I recall the sterile thing being an issue.I used to know a guy back in alberta who had a ebjd breeding project on th go and I will try and look up his old thread on alberta aquatica and I remember it was all quite detailed. I dont know if your interested but you could take a look .I will try and dig up his name.

The reason your project intrigues me is I have always wanted to do the calico or marbled convicts. Convicts I know but there are very few marbled ones out there and I know the formula is quite similiar with the ebjd map . Hybrids I get they are easy but colour morphs are a whole other ball of wax and require more patience and tank space than I have .

I hope you have some luck. its nice to see some more new worlds especially some higher end ones. long term goal is to be producing these for sale? or is this project more for personal reasons? if these end up popping off you know you can count on me for a few babies when the time comes.

Next random question.... has anyone ever hybridized an ebjd with anything>? I mean assuming all their reproductive systems are working then why havent we seen any ebjd x flowerhorns<could you imagine>!! or ebjd x texas or jags I mean an ebjd x jag would make a beautiful fish with a HUGE mouth full of chompers... anyways way off track but as of now your the only guy I know so im asking you ... thanks man..


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## AWW

cadillac_jack said:


> AWW, I had a couple of questions for you and thought you might be able to answer them.. With EBJD's they are not a hybrid but rather a colour morph correct.And you know Im a big fan of hybrids but i guess what my question is I thought that MOST ebjd males were sterile? , if this is incorrect please just let me know. but if this were a true fact wouldnt it be easier to achieve the ebjd's by crossing the ebjd females with the standard blue gene males? then at least 100% of your egg layers would be fully fertile and you would have a higher likely hood of having fry.
> 
> I remember looking at the ebjd projects and for some reason through the fog in my brain I recall the sterile thing being an issue.I used to know a guy back in alberta who had a ebjd breeding project on th go and I will try and look up his old thread on alberta aquatica and I remember it was all quite detailed. I dont know if your interested but you could take a look .I will try and dig up his name.
> 
> The reason your project intrigues me is I have always wanted to do the calico or marbled convicts. Convicts I know but there are very few marbled ones out there and I know the formula is quite similiar with the ebjd map . Hybrids I get they are easy but colour morphs are a whole other ball of wax and require more patience and tank space than I have .
> 
> I hope you have some luck. its nice to see some more new worlds especially some higher end ones. long term goal is to be producing these for sale? or is this project more for personal reasons? if these end up popping off you know you can count on me for a few babies when the time comes.
> 
> Next random question.... has anyone ever hybridized an ebjd with anything>? I mean assuming all their reproductive systems are working then why havent we seen any ebjd x flowerhorns<could you imagine>!! or ebjd x texas or jags I mean an ebjd x jag would make a beautiful fish with a HUGE mouth full of chompers... anyways way off track but as of now your the only guy I know so im asking you ... thanks man..


Hey Mac, Here is some information I have gathered. Everything in this next post is NOT fact, it is speculation. There is still lots of unknowns with EBJD.

IMO infertility only has to do with genetics. The current theory I believe about these fish, is the mutation only effects pigment. Similar to albinism. The only reason the fish are unhealthy/infertile is because of poor breeding. Many people believe this to be true when it comes to albinos. The thought is, that the mutation is simply lack of "gold" or lighter pigment. The reason I am using males, is because that is what became available. The other downside to using females, is they are less agressive, thus it takes a bigger tole on them though breeding. If these guys are fertile, and by looking at them there genetics seem fantastic, I should be good to go.

Long term goal is to produce a healthy strain first, then sales second. Many people frown away from EBJD projects because they go in with the mindset of simply making profit, because they are a higher end fish. Right now, Although the plan is to sell some, Its more personal than anything else.

As for hybridization, I have given a great deal of thought to this. For the EBJD color to be expressed, you need genetics from both parents to result in the electric blue color. Otherwise, you only have a fish that carries the gene. IMO it may be possible to produce a hybrid to express the electric blue trait, but you would need several generations of breeding, and many hybrids are totally infertile. Once you throw a mutation into the mix... it becomes even more challenging. The first step is to create a healthy strain.

If i do attempt hybridization, I will try it EBJDXJAG. I may also attempt BGJDXTexas. I don't know if the Blue jene can be recessive 2 generations, without more EBJD crossed in. This will be a project I undertake years down the line though... working with simply a mutation is hard enough. Hybridization makes things much more messy.

Another interesting fact about EBJD, is they have been around for about 30 years. Someone down in SA somewhere was breeding Jacks and noticed the mutation, and kept it alive. They only surfaced in the hobby in 2005 ish. That means over 20 years of perfecting the strain before retail. That kind of time period does suggest the genes were even weaker before.

IMO the stronger the gene gets, the more possible hybridization becomes.


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## cadillac_jack

Thanks for answering, I wasnt 100% on the infertility aspect of things.. not that long ago people believe all parrot fish were infertile which is clearly not the case.

Its a cool project and for personal or profit you are doing a great job thus far.

in the future if you do have some success that would be awesome and also the more you document your findings maybe some of the myths can be put to rest and actual facts can come out.

ebjd x jag yeah that is an exciting prospect.
good luck


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## Pamela

This is a great project Alex! I love EBJD's and I look forward to following your progress.

You said in your first post that you think your 2 male EBJD's may be related. If they came from Virual Kevin, they may not be related because Kevin bought a nice EBJD from moneysink (who bought it from me in May 2012) ...could be the same fish.

There was a forum member on the island who was attempting a pretty big scale EBJD breeding program maybe 4 or 5 years ago. I wish I could remember his name, I think his first name might have been Sean. He was the one who organized a big group buy from Jeff Rapps/Tangled Up In Cichlids if anybody remembers that. He bought something like 30 or 40 juvie EBJD's at that time to grow out for his breeding project. He might have some good advice for you if he could be tracked down.


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## 2wheelsx2

It was Sean Westle. I was really excited about EBJD's and asked him a lot of questions. He even had a "chemilizer" which added water conditioners and buffers to his tanks automatically for his drip systems. He explained all the genetics, etc. on cichlid-forum.com

Don't know what happened to him though as I don't see him on any forums anymore.


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## Pamela

2wheelsx2 said:


> It was Sean Westle. I was really excited about EBJD's and asked him a lot of questions. He even had a "chemilizer which added water conditioners and buffers to his tanks automatically for his drip systems. He explained all the genetics, etc. on cichlid-forum.com
> 
> Don't know what happened to him though as I don't see him on any forums anymore.


Thank you !


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## kpsaila

AWW I'm on the island but am hoping to start the same program over here. I've been growing out 7 EBJD since September and they're at 5 to over 6 inches. Perhaps we could swap genes back and forth to keep gene pools more diverse as we get fry. [email protected]


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## AWW

Pamela said:


> This is a great project Alex! I love EBJD's and I look forward to following your progress.
> 
> You said in your first post that you think your 2 male EBJD's may be related. If they came from Virual Kevin, they may not be related because Kevin bought a nice EBJD from moneysink (who bought it from me in May 2012) ...could be the same fish.
> 
> There was a forum member on the island who was attempting a pretty big scale EBJD breeding program maybe 4 or 5 years ago. I wish I could remember his name, I think his first name might have been Sean. He was the one who organized a big group buy from Jeff Rapps/Tangled Up In Cichlids if anybody remembers that. He bought something like 30 or 40 juvie EBJD's at that time to grow out for his breeding project. He might have some good advice for you if he could be tracked down.


I wish he was still breading! I would love have enough tanks for a breeding operation of that scale.I also chatted with kevin. He has a 6 incher for sale. $100. I am still thinking about it.... haha.



kpsaila said:


> AWW I'm on the island but am hoping to start the same program over here. I've been growing out 7 EBJD since September and they're at 5 to over 6 inches. Perhaps we could swap genes back and forth to keep gene pools more diverse as we get fry. [email protected]


That would be awesome! Ill be in contact. There are so few breeders now, its great to hear your taking these guys on!

Stay tuned, Photo update later tonight


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## NODES

those colors are stunning...I bet they look even better in person


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## AWW

Here are some pictures for this week,

sub dominant is getting more aggressive finally. Really starting to outstretch all his fins all the time too. Dominant is almost done healing from lip locking (finally) I didn't include any pictures of the females, but the smaller female is growing super fast.

I am starting to play with the camera more, and finally getting some shots I am happy with 





And their pall, The GT. already put on over an inch.


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## AWW

The weeks are flying by!

Added more mechanical filteration, As I am feeding more. The dominant is really maturing great. Every week he gets a little more colorful. The sub-dominant Isn't hitting his full potential. I think a divider is inevitable if I want to push full size out of him.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Wow, that fish in the first pic is truly spectacular. If you can breed him, the offspring should be very, very beautfiul.


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## AquaAddict

Hi Anthony,

I have a mated pair of EBJD's that I am considering selling - need to reduce my workload because of a bad back. If you are interested in the pair, let me know.

AquaAddict/ Eileen


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## Phillyb

Solid pictures, keep up the good work brotha!


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## NODES

first thing I thought when I saw the 5th pic, Wow that is a betta on steroids


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

AquaAddict said:


> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I have a mated pair of EBJD's that I am considering selling - need to reduce my workload because of a bad back. If you are interested in the pair, let me know.
> 
> AquaAddict/ Eileen


My workload is crazy and my house already has too many tanks (2 smal, 2 med. 1 lg + 180g koi "pond" outside).

I would be inspired to try breeding these beautiful fish by all these pics but I just don't have the space or time (plus they're freshies)


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## kpsaila

I might be interested Eileen, pm me.


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## AWW

Weelky Update, Even though its a few days late! haha.

New arivals too! Got 2 more EBJD, and one more female. The EBJD are a male/female pair of different genetics. They are a much different line than the other larger pair. They are likely around a 1.5 years old. I will see how they look in a few months and decide if I want to use them for breeding. Thanks again Eileen!

The aggression in the tank has risen significantly, sense I took out the adult geophagus this week. Current stock list is 4 EBJD 3 Jack dempsey 7 Geophagus and 1 green terror. Hopefully the tank balances soon. I may need to add more fish.


Sub dominant adult - Finally improving in color again. 

Dominant adult 

Female sub adult - around 3"

Male Sub-adult. around 5". Apologies for the poor picture, He is still hiding quite a bit. Note the split fins from aggression. I am keeping an eye on him. 

Regular gene Female - favorite female I have come by so far. Also the largest Dempsey in the tank now


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## AWW

I also wanted to post in detail the improvement in the sub dominants color. The first picture is from 2 weeks ago, the second this week. Look closely at the at the blue coloration towards the top of the body, as well as the black on the fins. This is a great example of much they change color as they grow. Hopefully in a month from now he looks more like the dominant. I love his fin coloration.


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## AWW

Time flies when your having fun! Thought I would check in on this thread. The renovations at Island pets in Burnaby have been keeping me very busy. Not only this, But I am going on a family trip to Mexico at the end of the month for a week, So I have been trying to groom my tanks to tip top form so everything runs smoothly while I am gone.

This tank has evolved very very well over the past few weeks, With a few major changes. Decor has been changed from mopani wood to river rocks, to keep the tank cleaner. All the electric blues couldn't be better. The new Electric blues are fitting in well, and my original pair is good as ever. The new female is a tad aggressive. I added some new fish so here is the full stock list:

X4 Electric blue jack dempsey (3 male, 1 female)
X3 Jack dempsey (Female)
X4 Green terror (Male, 3 are 8 - 9", 1 is around 5")
X7 geophagus red head tapajos (2 - 3 males, 3 - 4 females)

I had some adult geophagus in the tank earlier. Unfortunately they were not aggressive enough to keep up with the Dempsey. I lost two of them, and sold the remaining three. The young geophagus don't pose a threat to anyone, and mind their own business. I think the larger green terrors will be a better dither for these electric blues. They are displaying no aggression towards any other cichlids. They fight between them selves with a little harmless lip locking, but nothing to be worried about. Sense adding them, I have noticed a better balanced tank. This is the first time sense owning electric blues, that I have had larger, more aggressive cichlids in the tank with them. I am excited, As I really think Green terrors are an "Ideal tank mate" for electric blues, at all sizes.

As well, the small Electric blue Female does have a deformed fin, as seen in the picture below. Nothing serious, she is still got lots of spunk! I acquired her this way.

Enough talk! Here are some pictures. No captions anymore, as I am sure you guys can figure it out from earlier posts.


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## Momobobo

Yikes! Those Green Terrors look like brutes


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## AWW

Momobobo said:


> Yikes! Those Green Terrors look like brutes


Don't they?! Lets hope they play well with the pretty blue fish :bigsmile: If not they will be moved to another tank!


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## AWW

All 4 of my EBJD are on display at my work, Island pets, In Burnaby! Only for this week, while I am in Mexico.


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## Masonm

????? So I just read all of your post waiting for the conclusion? Did you end up breaking the EBJD?


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