# Industry Observations



## Algae Beater

Please realize that this post is not intended to offend anyone. This is merely my observation as a hobbyist, retailer, wholesaler and aqua culturist as I have been over the years around the world. 

When I started in this hobby when I was a child. Damn near 20 years ago as an 11 year old I had zero knowledge… I remember the panic I had when realizing my tank’s pH was all wrong for my guppies. I learned with the aid of books, eventually the internet and foremost from my local store, which was taken over by a big box after a year or two. the internet is a great tool for this now, with heaps of information at your fingertips. 

As I got older I took the time to ride the bus, or walk to the local fish stores to look at the interesting fish that in most cases I had never seen before. I got to see firsthand, high tech systems that I could only drool at, cool fish I could never accommodate, and animals I was compelled to learn more about. It inspired me long story short. Seeing things up close and personal in friendly environment was a blessing. Now given that a forum nowadays can supply much of what I’m yammering about, aquariums are the end of the day are a more tactile experience than most of us realize. The various viewing angles, activity of the animals, and yes even the sounds have a huge influence on how we experience aquariums. That seems to be dwindling in BC lately. 

I have lived and worked in the industry on 4 continents for going on 10 years and I have never seen such a rampart veer away from the LFS as I do now in BC. Retailers are going belly up (pardon the pun) and being replaced by online retailers, and businesses without a storefront. This is tragic… where are new hobbyists supposed to go and (pardon the cheesiness) dream? You can’t send a 14 year old kid on a bus to someone’s home or allow that child to shop online. So where’s the nourishment of young minds in the hobby coming from now? I don’t see it, and it makes me fear for the whole state of the industry. 

We here in Vancouver are the envy of the fish keeping world. Our tap water for the most part is damn near pristine allowing us to buffer it or change it any way that may be required by any fish, invert or plants. We are also a transportation hub for flights coming from the east (Asia, the south pacific, the Indian ocean, Australia, India… and so on) which means livestock should come in cheaper, less stressed and in better physical condition due to the shorter transit times. So in an area that SHOULD be the bustling epicenter for the aquarium trade with good livestock and flexible water parameters we see stores declining and nothing filling the void. 

Seriously … what the hell is going on here? 

There is a reason that the statement “support your local fish store” is so prominent. If these stores crumble, so does the foundation of the hobby and likely the industry too. Stores have more buying power, more room for livestock and the ability to showcase them with regular hours, and a clean environment where you can bring your family. People can curiously wander into the store and start a new hobby! As much as we’d like to think BCA is an inviting community, it can be intimidating and hard to get into. And we have seen just how hard it can be for anyone going against the grain (remember the whole for free with purchase ad fiasco?). A LFS is the ONLY way for someone to genuinely satisfy their curiosity on a whim.

I don’t buy the whole rationale of the statement that people are looking for the best deal. Those that are selfishly willing to erode the foundation of the industry are often first to retort with the pricing statement. If someone doesn’t have a store, OF COURSE THEIR PRICES ARE LOWER! Overhead is a very real expense when pricing is created. One has to realize the benefits of this higher pricing. It keeps retailers busy and on their toes. It allows flexibility in doing new things, creating new displays (which everyone loves) and bringing in livestock through possibly exclusive avenues. The occasional purchase from a non-store is fine, it typically strengthens the hobbyist network. BUT spreading business through the industry is always helpful. 

My current job allows me to look at many aquarium markets around the globe. The most successful are typically where retailers work together (even if it’s an unspoken agreement) and everyone makes money with service or specialties in livestock / products being the deciding factor between stores. I don’t see that here, and I find it truly tragic. 

So this is my observation, and I’d love to see what everyone thinks.


----------



## Rastapus

Now that's a post!
I could not agree more with this post. I too spent every waking moment as a child cruising my most popular stores, bringing fish home on my bicycle. I even went as far as traveling to the states periodically for something different and going as far as to collect my own marine fish in the Bahamas and bringing them back home when I was only 16.
The aquarium hobby is a great hobby, one that captivates some hobbyists for their whole lives, myself included. 
I love to hear people express how much they loved to see a great LFS in Asia or in Germany usually followed by "why cant we get fish like this in North America?". Today's trend is focused towards offering the lowest price, quality second. There is far too much of this in BC, products being given away so low there is no tangible profit, just to be the one that offers the best price. Here in BC there has been a massive increase in hobbyists importing and selling livestock from their home or even from the airport! This sort of thing really blows my mind, I can't think of another industry that supports this. Caring for all these fish takes a lot of time and money, not to mention risk. For most people in this business it started as a passion, but too often in BC, ends in disappointment. I personally feel the low hardness issue in our water is a big contributor to many hobbyists failing over the years and giving up on this great hobby. Now we have the knowledge to fix this yet I am still bombarded with challenges to this problem and the validity of my claims.
When is the last time you saw a stunning aquarium in a public place in BC? Vancouver Aquarium excluded. We have a world class aquarium in BC, reason more why this hobby here should be huge, it's not.
This is a very difficult topic to get across to hobbyists here, mostly because many don't know how great it really could be. 
Who knows, maybe this great post by Algae Beater could be the new beginning..........


----------



## Algae Beater

I agree with a lot of what your said Rastapus.

I have lived in areas where good tap water is an oxymoron. where people spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on RO/DI and desalination just to get water we have for FREE out of the tap!! 

I want to see Vancouver's aquarium industry be one of the largest in the world AS IT SHOULD BE. cheap water, electricity and transportation costs for livestock. some of the stores that exist in Europe are simply unreal as you stated, and the only way to get such stores here is with a mature market that doesn't trample new stores before they have a chance to blossom.

it may come off a selfish for me wanting a mature business here in BC because i am a wholesaler, but bear in mind i wholesale globally, and i simply want my home town to have kick-ass selection. At the end of the day I am a hobbyist with 7 aquariums in my home.


----------



## Rastapus

Here are some other examples of abusive retailing and how it affects the industry's growth.
For many years now, Marine salt mix has been literally given away just over cost as a loss leader. What this has caused is many retailers dropping what was a popular line which is unfortunate for the product. What was the motive here? It is a heavy item expensive to ship, bulky item to stock, for what? To destroy the market on synthetic marine salt? Well done. Of course this tactic brought down the margins on all other salts that would otherwise be compared on price. Will people perform more water changes due to the lower cost? I don't think so, nobody enjoys changing water, why would the cost lowering of the salt promote this? It is simply abusive retailing, nothing more.
The Filstar filter is another great example, the market for that filter has been destroyed by a few retailers in BC, most stores don't want to carry it now because they cant make ANY money on it. Stores need revenue to care for their fish, and other animals, when this becomes restricted they cut corners. 
There are even fish that I will not import because the market has been destroyed by pricing that again was too aggressive by home based businesses. Big mess.


----------



## Ursus sapien

As a professional gardener and plant enthusiast, I know there is room for the big commercial nurseries, mom-and-pop home based nurseries, specialty importers and home garden hobbyists who sell a little on the side. Even with the culture of exchanging plants with other hobbyists, it's a thriving industry.

It has a lot to do with the people doing the buying, and their approach. Do you buy everything at Walmart and Ebay, or do you mix it up and shop local?

For me, pet stores are a destination experience, and, besides, I can't walk by one without at least going in to look. There is nothing as delightful as a well maintained aquarium shop. You see interesting and new things, and come away with ideas and motivation. It was the coolest thing to do when I was a child, and it hasn't gotten old.

That said, there are many fish which are of no commercial interest to your local fish store. If you never looked elsewhere, you wouldn't know killies or heterandria even existed, never mind the West African cichlids and such.

When I buy privately, I know the life history of the fish, what conditions it's been kept and transported in, the idiosyncrasies of that particular strain and husbandry information that my lfs simply can't provide. I know down to the pond where my killies come from. I know that my wild-type livebearers aren't crossed with a domestic version or, worse, a related species. I can often even find out the date of collection and name of the collector. That matters.

I shop at my local fish stores for food, supplies and animals, because I think they're an asset to the local community. Price is not the only - or even the most important - part of this equation. Supporting local, usually small, business make a the entire community richer. 

Personally, I don't think the problem is that there are home based breeders, or home based importers. They're part of the fabric of the hobby. The problem is the 'walmart' mentality which dictates that quality, service and ethics rate a distant 2nd to the cheapest price.


----------



## Algae Beater

Ursus sapien said:


> As a professional gardener and plant enthusiast, I know there is room for the big commercial nurseries, mom-and-pop home based nurseries, specialty importers and home garden hobbyists who sell a little on the side. Even with the culture of exchanging plants with other hobbyists, it's a thriving industry.
> 
> It has a lot to do with the people doing the buying, and their approach. Do you buy everything at Walmart and Ebay, or do you mix it up and shop local?
> 
> For me, pet stores are a destination experience, and, besides, I can't walk by one without at least going in to look. There is nothing as delightful as a well maintained aquarium shop. You see interesting and new things, and come away with ideas and motivation. It was the coolest thing to do when I was a child, and it hasn't gotten old.
> 
> That said, there are many fish which are of no commercial interest to your local fish store. If you never looked elsewhere, you wouldn't know killies or heterandria even existed, never mind the West African cichlids and such.
> 
> When I buy privately, I know the life history of the fish, what conditions it's been kept and transported in, the idiosyncrasies of that particular strain and husbandry information that my lfs simply can't provide. I know down to the pond where my killies come from. I know that my wild-type livebearers aren't crossed with a domestic version or, worse, a related species. I can often even find out the date of collection and name of the collector. That matters.
> 
> I shop at my local fish stores for food, supplies and animals, because I think they're an asset to the local community. Price is not the only - or even the most important - part of this equation. Supporting local, usually small, business make a the entire community richer.
> 
> Personally, I don't think the problem is that there are home based breeders, or home based importers. They're part of the fabric of the hobby. The problem is the 'walmart' mentality which dictates that quality, service and ethics rate a distant 2nd to the cheapest price.


Granted that there is something to be said about species which do not get the attention that they truly deserve in the typical retail setting (I keep and breed various Apistogramma species). Home based breeders are one thing, at the root they are a hobbyist, usually doing what they love and selling what has result from it. that is awesome, truly awesome in the eyes of another hobbyist. Hell even people importing harder to come by species for personal projects isn't bad as those species are typically not viable in the retail sense, with a very niche client base being interested. They usually sit for awhile. ( I won't digress into how a more mature market can support specialty shops for such interests). It's when bread and butter species / gear is specifically brought in and quite literally flogged for a price bypassing the usual markups by a store whose benefits we have made clear and a wholesaler's markup which again has more buying power and support for warranties etc. than a store and hobbyist. That is the destructive tendency to which I am referring.


----------



## Algae Beater

oh and FYI i have purchased maybe 5 items off ebay in my life and haven't set foot in a walmart in years, if ever. 

I personally love this hobby and want to see it flourish


----------



## `GhostDogg´

I think you have to blame the "big box pet stores" a lil bit too.
They hire employees who have no idea or very little about the hobby.
They give out bad advice, & label bad info on the tanks.
ie: Petsmart, Petcetra, Walmart(when they carried fish).

Most ppl are naive & will "impulse buy" without really researching the fish they want.
This also works in advantage for all these "big box pet stores" because they can talk these ppl into buy a tank & equipment that will only last a fish a few months before this fish outgrows it.
Or this fish will die because they fail to inform the customer that the tank needs to be cycled.
When the fish die, they get discouraged, it's not like keeping a gold fish in a bowl.

I think if these companies would hire the proper staff for handling the fish, they could make a better impression on the next generation.
The fish they sell would be healthier, & they could afford to bring in better quality fish.

I always test the ppl working @ these places when I'm there shopping for dog toys.
Most fail horribly,& I almost always overhear them giving bad advice.
I usually step in afterwards & give them correct advice when the "sales person" walks away.
I don't mind sounding like a "fish geek" if I can help make our hobby more enjoyable for the next gen.


I'm not against "out of home" sellers.
The fish are usually better quality than the stores mentioned, & are much healthier as well.
I like that they start with fish that comes from reputable sources, it saves me time & $$$ from ordering online.
I've been scammed online 1 too many times, so I try to avoid doing online purchases.
If these guy can save me that step then they can have my business.

If they have what I want, & show better quality than any other local source, then what's to stop me from buying from them.
After all isn't this the most important part of our hobby?

Getting something cheaper isn't always the best deciding factor.
The saying "You pay for what you get" often show it's true colors when your fish doesn't turn out to be the "show piece" you were after.


----------



## Rastapus

Big box stores tend to get people started. I would agree that full line chain stores do tend to have a mixed bag for advice but they also sell anything related to pets. I am sure the advice on caring for your dog varies from person to person.
If someone has an issue with a new aquarium from a big box, most will find a more specialized store, like IPU:bigsmile:, to talk to. I cant tell you how many times big box store employees recommended customers to us! It's kind of like expecting Walmart to advise you on their grass cutters. Likely no one will be an expert on them. 
Yes, the average big box store does not help but there are big box stores in every country and they have thriving aquarium industries.


----------



## Algae Beater

I think you're missing the point, a big box can often get someone started in the hobby, and granted most employees in such stores are useless, most inquisitive hobbyists will ultimately find a better source for info, products and livestock.. 

As i said looking for specialty items from a local hobbyist or importer is one thing, but flogging an established product at a ridiculously low price harms the market overall. why do you think stereos and TVS ultimately cost the same everywhere? most of us would NEVER buy a NEW TV from a place that wasn’t an established retailer, the same goes for food everyone sells milk, the price stay relatively static and everyone makes money. You’d never buy milk from a home-based business …


----------



## darb

The bottom line though is that markets change and change is the only constant in life and if one doesn't adapt to change they get left behind. One good example of this would be the movie industry: cinemas-> cable TV -> VHS/DVDs (rentals and sales) satellite TV-> video on demand (cable) -> internet TV on demand.

I personally have a limited disposable income like most, and naturally try to get as much as I can out of those few dollars; and again, I am guessing like most people do. So if I can, I am going to either plan ahead or be prepared to wait a while to sometimes get merchandise online. I do still shop locally for most of my hardware, but again I try and get as much value for my money because seeing pretty displays is nice but not something that is going to draw me in nor pay a premium for.

Big box stores in general are probably setting the standard (a race to the bottom perhaps) for many if not most retail business in Canada. Local operations will never be able to compete with corporations when it comes to prices on hard goods, but there will always be a percentage of people who support them either on a regular or occasional basis. Another good example of this is neighbourhood corner grocery stores which have been largely wiped from the map as compared with 20 years ago or so.

One could also see this is an opportunity to expand in other areas such as livestock as an example. I have ordered fish online also, obviously not to save money but to gain access to a fish that was not available locally. IMHO this is an area in Canada that there is perhaps some room for growth with only a couple of companies with a noteable online presence (Oliver and Spencer).

What is my point, good question, just pointing out that many retail sectors/businesses have under gone great change over time, either fueled by changes in consumer demand, technology or other business models and it is inevitable, but where there is change there is always opportunity.


----------



## Rastapus

I believe this post is more about the current state of the hobby in BC, selling products just above cost is abusive to the product and the industry, does not really have anything to do with progression, more like sabotage.


----------



## April

I agree with rasputus and the first post. Even now I still love going to petshops and I am sure I've been to most. And as a store I myself don't bother trying to sell items that are sold at a couple of stores for less or
Close to wholesale 
Perhaps the trend will change once again when the new customs permits 
Take effect. Alot of fish will need permits to import. 
I love it when young kids come in as that's how I started out and I want to nurture their fish hobby. They walk out with big smiles on their faces. 
Stores need to be supported or there won't be any. It's a tough business to stay afloat. Alot of hard work and let's face it the stores opened a shop because they are fish hobbyists themselves.


----------



## rich16

Dang, this post brought back memories...:bigsmile:

I agree with the OP. I started in this hobby 30 years ago, and remember hopping on the bus to head to one of the LFS, and as was mentioned possibly seeing something new, or some tank that I wanted to copy. Actually, I blame my LFS for my advanced MTS now!! 

While there still are good storefront pet and fish stores, the true numbers have definitely declined, but I believe that to be the case with many industries. 

There definitely is a place for the "at home", specialty dealer, but the off the street casual customer needs something to attract them to the hobby, and a well located, knowledgeable fish store is just the thing. 

I am lucky enough to have a little pet store within walking distance, with an owner who knows his stuff with aquariums, and it is nice to have a place to go and pick up algae wafers for my pleco, and spend 20 minutes just chatting!


----------



## TomC

Does anyone remember the LFS on Victoria Drive near 41st, in the late 1960s? Run by a guy named Spurgeon, I think. That was where I started. Went with my $2 Christmas money and got my first fish. 2 angels, 2 zebra danios, and a blind cave tetra.


----------



## Algae Beater

thanks those of you who got the gist of the post!

this is not about progression, digression rather. where an industry that is floundering where it DEFINITELY should not be.


----------



## AWW

Wow, Interesting topic to read about. 

The other thing that many people may not notice, is fish usually come close to last in MOST big box pet stores. 60 - 70% come from dog/cat. 20% small animal/bird. Leaves a real small amount for fish. 

Why?

Simple. Because fish sales/purchases takes the most knowledge. In a store setting, you can sell $300 in dog food, in the time it takes to explain to a costomer about how to care for a $5 guppy. This really takes pet retailers away from selling fish. 

As for the lack of knowledge behind the sellers, I see this all the time in big box stores. But when you think about it, If you knew a large amount about fish, would you really want to be working for a place like this? It would be frustrating. Its regular maintenance, generally the same fish week to week, and people complain about your lac of knowledge behind your back when you know something  

The thing that I miss are the small specialty stores that arn't rack lined with product. The stores that are usually filled with tanks. I miss these stores. 

I actually think the hobby is dwindling in BC. Its the hardest animal out there to learn about. Without the small stores, usually run by a dedicated owner in there 5 days a week, tailoring to every ones needs, the hobby will hit rock bottem.


----------



## IceBlue

I first got started in this hobby as a child in Glasgow Scotland. In the 60's Glasgow was a dull and dreary place filled with tenemants. To have a tropical fish tank to look at was truly a window into a different, exotic world that filled us children with wonder.

Since looking through those stores to the present I have always respected the people at the various LFS's I have visited and even when I inherited a disease which wiped out my Discus tank, i understood that i had to be somewhat loyal to the dealer. To have him go under did not serve me in the long run. (Unfortunately he did go under, though now I hear he was not that good for the trade here on the Island).
Point is, I believe most of us understand the necessity of purchasing from our local store or that option will be gone. I have local stores I purchase from that share excellent knowledge and can verify species on sight, along with characteristics. I'm not telling anyone anything new but just stating the importance of a good LFS and the importance of our loyalty.

Just a note, I bought 4 Sunshine Peacocks from a big box, turned out to be Hap 44's. Had to split them up but they're still causing mayhem in my 180 and 150. Nice colour bad temperment. Now what!!!!

My 2 cents.


----------



## Ursus sapien

There are 5 pet stores within easy striking distance from my apartment. I avoid three of them, and shop regularly at the other two.

The three I avoid are: a huge chain store that caters mostly to financially 'comfortable' families with younger kids who have moved into the new instant subdivisions. The tanks are well maintained, species are well described and the staff are actually pretty knowledgeable, at least about basics. It's also outrageously expensive. And I do mean jaw-dropping outrageous. The 2nd is a large store with okay pricing but mediocre staff and tanks with chronic disease issues. The 3rd is an independent with such amazingly rude/poor service that I don't understand how they stay afloat. 

The two I shop at are: a smaller chain store that has recently upgraded it's fish room and at last has employed an aquarium-section manager who knows what he's doing. Prices are reasonable, selection is reasonably varied and the tanks are well maintained. The 2nd is a mom and pop operation that does mostly dog/cat/other feeds, with a small fish room in the back - maybe 20 or 25 tanks. The tanks are okay maintained, most of the staff have no idea what they're on about and pricing is fair. While the fish are the usual bread-n-butter sort, the owner has a sense of adventure when it comes to stock and brings in some interesting stuff. They don't knowingly sell sick fish.

As a general statement, it's probably no coincidence that some of the better shops around the Lower Mainland are in older, unflashy locations, where rent is perhaps more reasonable.

The point, if I can remember it, is just that unhealthy animals, limited selection, over-the-top pricing and/or bad or uninformed service is what drives many more experienced hobbyists away from retail outlets and into the welcoming arms of hobby forums. Honestly, if there were more Pets Beautiful-like shops out there, perhaps so many of us wouldn't be looking for alternatives.


----------



## neven

For me the issue is trying to find other local fish shops around where i live. It is a constant disappointment. They have little to no fish in their tanks and all they carry is the generic fish you can get in any shops that cater mostly to those doing their first tank, or the goldfish killers. Other than that they have issues with respecting their customers, if i patron a store i do not like being lied to, if i patron your store i do not like being sneered at because i like to look at things on my own, and if i patron your store i expect you to know about your product. These things are what is ruining the industry in my opinion. You cant have only a few shops in a metropolitan this size that work, its not enough, the rest drive people away from the hobby.

You have no idea how many times i've been lied to in smaller shops looking for specific equipment from brand names that should be carried. I've been told the product i've been looking for doesn't exist, that a vastly inferior specced model was equivalent, that you cant find that product locally (despite that you can). Its rather annoying, especially considering that i bus everywhere and it takes more of my day up trying these new shops out.

another complaint i have is the lack of product in many stores, even the ones i frequent. I am in planted tank, there's a ton of opportunity for profit in planted tank gear, but only one shop really carries them, and i refuse to shop there do to respect reasons. I do not like buying fish tank equipment online, i prefer to see what im getting, but its really hard in this city to do that.

as for what i want to see in shops:
co2 equipment: various complete set ups for pressurized and yeast, even canisters for the yeast based so we dont need to make our own
lighting: atleast a selection, more emphasis on the smaller tanks, the nano tanks are the new craze, take advantage of it.
nutrients: it pains me every time i recommend someone to go for the seachem dilluted to hell line of products, i want to support local fish shops, but this one is a painful pill to swallow. Various aquarium root tabs could be useful to sell.

the livestock, theres no fixing the small shops, but i have to give it to several of the sponsors on this site, they carry a decent variety and it differs shop to shop to an extent. Some species i wish were in vancouver, but rastapus tried with one i really wanted that should have sold out in no time ( i would have bought them had i known he had them ) and he got burnt big time on them because the hobby was too ignorant in this city to know their true worth.


----------



## Momobobo

The problem with stocking stores is buying rare and expensive things arnt as profitable as stocking cheap bettas and goldfish. To me, logically, stocking those things are much more profitable. Being that beginners come in and want to start keeping fish. They buy a fish and a full tank setup which is already more then a hundred dollars for a 10gal normally. The fish would most likely die, the tank being uncycled, possibly not dechlorinating the water, and much more beginner ''mistakes''. The begginer would then come back in and buy more fish and try to keep them, all the while the store gives minamel advice to allow them to keep coming back. Rarely in a store does anybody ever mention much more then "float the bag for 10 minutes, half and half water". 

That is much more profitable then an experienced hobbyist that might visit once, look at the stock, and just leave without buying anything because of price and quality. And if they buy anything they would most likely not come back for along time, owing that the chance of the fish dying is low. Even if the said fish is $50, this is a one time purchese and unlikly for the customer to return. 

What I would like to see is an increase of knowledge and honesty among the employees. Eithier store employees have near zero knowledge or they are completly dishonest, which pains me to see them giving incorrect or altered information to beginners.


----------



## Rastapus

Momobobo said:


> The problem with stocking stores is buying rare and expensive things arnt as profitable as stocking cheap bettas and goldfish. To me, logically, stocking those things are much more profitable. Being that beginners come in and want to start keeping fish. They buy a fish and a full tank setup which is already more then a hundred dollars for a 10gal normally. The fish would most likely die, the tank being uncycled, possibly not dechlorinating the water, and much more beginner ''mistakes''. The begginer would then come back in and buy more fish and try to keep them, all the while the store gives minamel advice to allow them to keep coming back. Rarely in a store does anybody ever mention much more then "float the bag for 10 minutes, half and half water".
> 
> That is much more profitable then an experienced hobbyist that might visit once, look at the stock, and just leave without buying anything because of price and quality. And if they buy anything they would most likely not come back for along time, owing that the chance of the fish dying is low. Even if the said fish is $50, this is a one time purchase and unlikely for the customer to return.
> 
> What I would like to see is an increase of knowledge and honesty among the employees. Either store employees have near zero knowledge or they are completely dishonest, which pains me to see them giving incorrect or altered information to beginners.


I hope the last statement is not how you feel about all BC operators and employees. I would find that generalization somewhat inaccurate if so.


----------



## Rastapus

I think things are straying off topic a little but I believe the original post was referring to the fact that the BC aquarium hobby is not nearly as large as it could and should be and how I am sure we would all like to see it change.
There is a lot of abusive retailing as the root cause as I have already touched on but also yes, a lack of uniform information is to blame as well in addition to the lack of attention to our tap water issues.
Support your LFS and the industry will grow. Stores should be competing on specializing in specific areas rather then destroying popular products on basis of price. As Algae beater pointed out, most industries are like this, and there is more control over pricing to ensure a healthy market and industry.


----------



## `GhostDogg´

Rastapus said:


> I think things are straying off topic a little but I believe the original post was referring to the fact that the BC aquarium hobby is not nearly as large as it could and should be and how I am sure we would all like to see it change.
> There is a lot of abusive retailing as the root cause as I have already touched on but also yes, a lack of uniform information is to blame as well in addition to the lack of attention to our tap water issues.
> Support your LFS and the industry will grow. Stores should be competing on specializing in specific areas rather then destroying popular products on basis of price. As Algae beater pointed out, most industries are like this, and there is more control over pricing to ensure a healthy market and industry.


That sounds like the prefect answer to me.

Message to LFS/LPS who are not sponsors but are members just keeping tabs on the competitors  :
(excluding former sponsors  )

Whenever I go into a shop I've never been in I always mention BCA to the owners,employees, & customers.
Whether or or not they join, I spread the word.
I feel if we utilize what we have, we can make our hobby better as a whole.
Why not use BCA, as a HQ, where we can share our insight, & idea on how to make things better for each other.
BCA is a great place to find out what the people in our hobby are after.
Constructive criticism is a good way to gauge what the customers thing of your place.
It's also a good way to make the needed changes to not only improve what you do as a company, but also a way to make things better for our next generation.

I remember all the cool places I went to with my dad as a kid, those memories planted the seed that blossomed into a great hobby for me.
Make things as enjoyable as they were for you when you experienced your "1st impression".

Bottom line...
This hobby can be a "cash grab" or something you truly love to do, & show by the way you run your shop.
You can really see what owners have passion for their hobby.
These are usually the stores I frequent, to feed my "fish addiction".:lol:

If you don't have a "next gen" coming up, who will be buying things from your store?

Support your LFS, but @ the same time the LFS should also be supporting the interests for their customer.


----------



## Momobobo

Rastapus said:


> I hope the last statement is not how you feel about all BC operators and employees. I would find that generalization somewhat inaccurate if so.


Ohnononono, I did not mean all store employees are like that. I just ment the degeneration of the hobby is caused by certain store employees that behave in such a manner. Which I believe is a part of the problem of why the fish keeping is not as bustling as it should be. Certain stores would sell anything as long as it profits, which means inadequete fish pairings, knowledge and equipment which leads to failiure for first time or beginner hobbyists. Most of these people just think its a failed attempt and not go on to research and learn more and attempt it again.


----------



## Rastapus

`GhostDogg´ said:


> That sounds like the prefect answer to me.
> 
> Message to LFS/LPS who are not sponsors but are members just keeping tabs on the competitors  :
> (excluding former sponsors  )
> 
> Whenever I go into a shop I've never been in I always mention BCA to the owners,employees, & customers.
> Whether or or not they join, I spread the word.
> I feel if we utilize what we have, we can make our hobby better as a whole.
> Why not use BCA, as a HQ, where we can share our insight, & idea on how to make things better for each other.
> BCA is a great place to find out what the people in our hobby are after.
> Constructive criticism is a good way to gauge what the customers thing of your place.
> It's also a good way to make the needed changes to not only improve what you do as a company, but also a way to make things better for our next generation.
> 
> I remember all the cool places I went to with my dad as a kid, those memories planted the seed that blossomed into a great hobby for me.
> Make things as enjoyable as they were for you when you experienced your "1st impression".
> 
> Bottom line...
> This hobby can be a "cash grab" or something you truly love to do, & show by the way you run your shop.
> You can really see what owners have passion for their hobby.
> These are usually the stores I frequent, to feed my "fish addiction".:lol:
> 
> If you don't have a "next gen" coming up, who will be buying things from your store?
> 
> Support your LFS, but @ the same time the LFS should also be supporting the interests for their customer.


Hey Ghostdogg,
The problem with using a forum like BCA as a HQ, there are a lot of examples of what I am referring to right here on this forum. It is like what clubs used to be like, they eventually turned into a point of exposure for people to exploit for their personal gain. Forums are the new clubs in that respect except they reach a broader number of people. For a LFS to promote people to a forum is both good and bad. Just this morning there was a post from a new member selling their livestock without sponsorship and this was not a couple of items but obviously an importer of some sort. This is a perfect example why it would make no sense for an LFS to direct their customers to this site. 
Also there are heaps of differing opinions on a lot of subjects on forums that may actually lead to further confuse hobbyists. Don't get me wrong, when BCA is humming along with good threads and intelligent honest questions, it is a great place. When it is filled with classifieds and private home based businesses, not so much.
As far as the hobby being a "cash grab", it is a business and therefore requires cash in terms of profits. People who only run their store with the hobby in mind don't last long, as has been seen in this city. 
Store owners have to keep in mind how their individual pricing affects the local industry as a whole. If aggressive pricing increases volume and brings more people in the hobby that's great, when stupid aggressive pricing comes into play, it actually has the opposite, short term affects and in the end cripples the industry as less and less products will be seen as stores drop lines they can not profit on. This being a hobby is partly what makes it difficult for some people to see that it is a business as any other and requires a decent margin to survive let alone thrive. Due to our geographic location we have the advantage like LA of being a transit hub, particularly for live fish. There are more wholesalers in LA due to their location then any other city in the US yet look how few stores there are in BC?

I agree shops need to pay attention to the needs of their customer but likewise, stores cannot cater to customers that are used to paying $40 for something that cost a store $37. This is the abuse I am referring where no one wins. Yes the customer will for the short term but in the end, they will find it harder and harder to get what they want. One might argue that this is already the case when there are so many home based aquatic businesses popping up. Several provide online services, and again due to our geographic location is expected but at what cost?


----------



## Rastapus

Momobobo said:


> Ohnononono, I did not mean all store employees are like that. I just ment the degeneration of the hobby is caused by certain store employees that behave in such a manner. Which I believe is a part of the problem of why the fish keeping is not as bustling as it should be. Certain stores would sell anything as long as it profits, which means inadequete fish pairings, knowledge and equipment which leads to failiure for first time or beginner hobbyists. Most of these people just think its a failed attempt and not go on to research and learn more and attempt it again.


Agreed but that happens in any major city. Not specific to BC.


----------



## `GhostDogg´

No no...
I'm not telling the LFS to "preach" about BCA, I was (more or less) trying to say that the LFS use BCA as a HQ/sort of a base to gauge the interest that the "potential customers" might have for certain fish,food,equipment, etc.

I think it's also a great way to spread the word about the LFS we have in our city.
You could kind of say "like the local facebook" of our hobby.
Also to see what the competitors are offering, & provide that "niche market" into our hobby you mentioned.

There's is not & probably will never be a fish store where you can get anything you ever wanted or needed.
All thought it would be great to have a "1 stop shop" LFS, it wouldn't be practical for the owner(s).
(This is where online sales come in hand.)

I guess it's all part of the fun of doing the "LFS Hop/Grind".
I go 1 place cause I like the fish, but they don't have the food I want, or equipment I'm looking for.
So I have to go to another to get my food, but wait no equipment or parts I need.
Ok the last place has the parts /equipment I need.
:bigsmile:

Sometimes I'll just get a part/food/fish @ a store simply because I'm there, regardless of the cost or if I can get it cheaper somewhere else.
It saves me time, gas, & putting up with idiot drivers (in Richmond & Surrey :bigsmile: ).

This is what I'm getting @ when I mentioned using BCA as a HQ for LFS.
It make it easier to schedule out the day for us who have to do the "LFS Hop/Grind"

I'm lucky to have a few places that are close/walking distance that carry the meds or foods I need when ever I'm in a jam.
But I usually go to place a bit further to support a certain sponsor.
Cough...IPU...Couch Grant... :lol:

I'm not against "Out of home" shops, but I do agree that it does have an effect on you guys as licensed dealers.
I don't choose sides, I just try to support the ppl that share the same interests as me whenever I can.


----------



## Algae Beater

Rastapus has it bang on.

I didn't start this thread to find out why LFS are struggling or why the industry is the way it is. I know these things all to well given my career. specialty shops always have a place in a mature market. look at a store like wall mart, which carries damn near everything. but when someone wants a specific type of speaker for example they likely can't get it there, so they go to a specialty store. given that only a few people need such specialized products, the population has to be large enough to have enough customers for a said shop. 

But if wall mart is the only place for miles and the population of shoppers never grows (read the reasons in the orig. post) then the market never matures or gets any better. its the same reason saltwater is the end of an "evolution" of sort for aquarists. when enough people evolve to that level of knowledge then a saltwater only store can open and be successful.

abusing the market with bad practices will chase away evolving aquarists and retard growth of the whole industry.

a LFS needs to succeed on its merits of service and sustainable practices on a storefront scale with customers and goods and a global scale (fish dying cyanide/dynamite fishing). A good price o something, unless its used or the store is going under can have deep ramifications if the store selling it flounders in other respects. An ignorant employee cannot be tolerate on the merit of saving a few bucks. this is terrible for the progression of the industry.


----------



## Fish n Chips

Hello all, this is quite the thread! I wanted to pipe in with somewhat of an opposing perspective from what I've read. I should mention first that I am in Victoria, so am in a bit different situation than Vancouver people -- small town, tiny market, etc -- but still in BC (and the 2nd biggest market in BC at that). 

There are 2 freshwater fish stores within walking distance and 2 more within bus/short drive distance from me. The closest one to me (and the only one downtown) literally smells of death, with a dozen or so tanks filled with dead/dying fish. I avoid that place because it makes me sad. The second is the best fish shop in Victoria. I frequently go there just to check out the tanks and enjoy an in person variety of fish, and often leave with a fish (left with a fish yesterday). Fish there cost about twice what you pay in Vancouver, and as much as ten times what I can fly the fish in for. The selection is the best in the city, but still is very limited. Equipment there costs about twice what it would costs me to ship it to my door from Ontario. Often I could get things shipped to my door even cheaper from other countries. That kind of mark up above what I can get things shipped to my door for seems crazy to me, but crazier still is that the 2 fish stores a bus/short drive away are more expensive still and have worse selection.

I love the big fish stores I've been in in Europe, the USA, and even the medium size ones I've been in in the GTA, but as a result of the cost, quality, and selection issues I mentioned above, I try to keep my local fish store purchases to a minimum. Livestock I usually either buy from local hobbyists, or fly in from other places. This gives me unlimited selection, and access to higher quality stock, at dramatically lower prices. Equipment I almost exclusively ship to my door from stores in Ontario. The same widget is the same widget no matter where you buy it from. I buy from Ontario to keep my purchase in the local (Canadian) economy, and often take a cost hit vs sourcing globally as a result, but still pay on average half what I would if I bought that same widget in a local store.

I understand the vendor perspective that without locals buying from your local store your ability to offer quality selection at competitive prices is diminished/destroyed. However, even if every local fish related purchase occurred in a local store, I'm not convinced you could offer the selection or prices available through centralized local hobbyist communication (the internet), and cheap national/global shipping. The local market is just too small, and hobbyist to hobbyist trade has become amazingly easy.

This doesn't only apply to fish stuff. I use the same shopping strategy for pretty much everything other than food and clothing.

Thoughts?


----------



## 123mars

Is this thread turning into a lament of why people are no longer willing to pay LFS excessive mark ups? I never undestand the sentimental connecton some people have with the LFS...

Everybody: You owe it to yourself and you family to buy the best quality good at the best possible prices and that is it.

I shop at JL Aquatics for all my supplies and their prices are as good as American stores. However mostly I time my purchases for when I am going down to the States and I pick them up in Blaine at Hagen's.

Canadian retailers have a culture of entitlement and think the customer owes them a good living. We are ripped off non stop up here, go to any American website and check it out for yourselves. Around 90% of the plates at Costco in Bellingham last weekend were Canadian and there is a good reason for that....way better prices!

LFS's sales have not been hit not by discount retailers but because fishkeeping is not as trendy as it was just after Finding Nemo. Simply put: Dogs are the new iPod and everybody has to have one. Don't blame the drop off in sales on discounters. Island pets have even recognized the trend and now sell dog food.

If a LFS wants to survive, they have to cut prices AND be creative: Perhaps a play area for the kids, courses on fishkeeping, slideshows or speakers on the Amazon or other areas, more participation in the local community or sponsorship (BC aquatics is a start) but also Excellent PRICES. If I just want nicely priced fish, I will go to the Canadian Aquatics guys or someone like that. You have to make a trip to the Fish store and event, and make me feel like I am not getting ripped off everytime I go so...lower your prices and make it FUN! But mostly, lower your prices.


----------



## Algae Beater

In a situation where the physical market itself is small, some of these elements make sense. Ultimately though this only works for an experienced aquarist. This does NOTHING to stimulate growth of the hobby and bring more people in. you need that inviting aspect of a well-run store. You wouldn’t buy a new TV from a crate at the airport or from some guy’s house if you had no idea what you were looking for. That’s why Future shop works. This is basic retail principle. The notion that a BASIC principle doesn’t work for an industry based around a visual product is rather absurd.

As far as liking the large stores and buying damn near everything from online or external sources … those two statements go against each other. I entirely understand going about the hobby like this when you live in a very small town. Victoria has a population of well over 300,000, not small by any stretch of the imagination. I have seen cities with 1/5 of that population in very remote corners of the globe have better aquarium industries than the Vancouver area (population around 2 million). What’s the difference ? Are we really THAT cheap here in BC?


----------



## Algae Beater

123mars said:


> Is this thread turning into a lament of why people are no longer willing to pay LFS excessive mark ups? I never undestand the sentimental connecton some people have with the LFS...
> 
> Everybody: You owe it to yourself and you family to buy the best quality good at the best possible prices and that is it.
> 
> I shop at JL Aquatics for all my supplies and their prices are as good as American stores. However mostly I time my purchases for when I am going down to the States and I pick them up in Blaine at Hagen's.
> 
> Canadian retailers have a culture of entitlement and think the customer owes them a good living. We are ripped off non stop up here, go to any American website and check it out for yourselves. Around 90% of the plates at Costco in Bellingham last weekend were Canadian and there is a good reason for that....way better prices!
> 
> LFS's sales have not been hit not by discount retailers but because fishkeeping is not as trendy as it was just after Finding Nemo. Simply put: Dogs are the new iPod and everybody has to have one. Don't blame the drop off in sales on discounters. Island pets have even recognized the trend and now sell dog food.
> 
> If a LFS wants to survive, they have to cut prices AND be creative: Perhaps a play area for the kids, courses on fishkeeping, slideshows or speakers on the Amazon or other areas, more participation in the local community or sponsorship (BC aquatics is a start) but also Excellent PRICES. If I just want nicely priced fish, I will go to the Canadian Aquatics guys or someone like that. You have to make a trip to the Fish store and event, and make me feel like I am not getting ripped off everytime I go so...lower your prices and make it FUN! But mostly, lower your prices.


So all these frills and services are supposed to be funded by ... Magic? I don't quite get what you're saying, that the best price is a necessity and the stores which you spend zero dollars at are supposed to have limitless resources to cater to customers who ultimately don't care? This also misses the point of how to stimulate growth from the bottom up. It's good that you support stores like J&L but they do not carry freshwater, and they are by no means a full line store for freshwater livestock. They are part of the equation for more 'evolved' aquarists.

Retailers have a sense of entitlement that their given profession can pay the bills and support them and their staff? You're damn right they do. Just as anyone's job should support them. As for heading south for good deals &#8230; just wait until the Canadian currency isn't as strong. Lest we forget that it was around 60% a few years back. See how many BC plates are down south when that happens. And have fun trying to find what you need from the retailers that survived the mass exodus to the states. It's ignorant to assume that such behavior has no ramification on the local economy.


----------



## Fish n Chips

Algae Beater said:


> In a situation where the physical market itself is small, some of these elements make sense. Ultimately though this only works for an experienced aquarist. This does NOTHING to stimulate growth of the hobby and bring more people in. you need that inviting aspect of a well-run store. You wouldn't buy a new TV from a crate at the airport or from some guy's house if you had no idea what you were looking for. That's why Future shop works. This is basic retail principle. The notion that a BASIC principle doesn't work for an industry based around a visual product is rather absurd.
> 
> As far as liking the large stores and buying damn near everything from online or external sources &#8230; those two statements go against each other. I entirely understand going about the hobby like this when you live in a very small town. Victoria has a population of well over 300,000, not small by any stretch of the imagination. I have seen cities with 1/5 of that population in very remote corners of the globe have better aquarium industries than the Vancouver area (population around 2 million). What's the difference ? Are we really THAT cheap here in BC?


The reason I love going to large fish stores is the same reason I love going to aquariums. Lots of neat fish to look at. But that's looking not shopping, and is why aquariums charge an entrance fee...

As I mentioned I use this same shopping strategy for everything other than food and clothing (and I don't think I'm the only one). A TV isn't a livestock like purchase at all, but it is a perfect example of an equipment purchase. As I said, the same widget is the same widget.

When I buy goods like a TV, I hop on the internet, and first check usedvictoria, kajiji, craigslist, etc. Often someone is moving and needs to get rid of their pretty new TV or whatever fast and for cheap (this works especially well for fish tanks since they are bulky and heavy). Or they just upgraded to the 60" model and don't want their old 32" TV taking up space etc.

If there aren't any crazy good deals on the local classifieds websites, or I'm looking for something special (which will likely be the case when I buy my next TV), I'll do an internet search for something like "TV forum" and find an internet forum full of knowledgeable TV enthusiasts. If I can't find out the best bang for your buck TV in my price range in 5 minutes of searching the forum, then a quick post asking "what is the best TV in my price range" will likely give me a short list of quite literally the best TVs in my price range at that moment. That's the great thing about the internet, in brings together all the enthusiasts worldwide for every niche that exists (fish included).

If those enthusiasts haven't already shown me the best/cheapest places to get said TVs, then another quick internet search later and I'll know the cheapest places to order them to my door. Most likely somewhere in the states will be the cheapest place, and most likely I'll end up ordering it from somewhere in Canada which is a little bit more expensive but will keep my cash in the national economy, and will still be significantly cheaper than Future shop.

For livestock it's more a matter of selection and quality, with lower prices being a bonus. There is no better selection of high quality fish then the global market, and it gets me pumped when the best global source turns out to be a local hobbyist!

When you are buying fish and equipment to sell in your store, do you only source from breeders and wholesalers in your own city? Or do you leverage the global market to maximize selection, quality, price, and ultimately, your return on investment?

I don't think the question is "Are we really THAT cheap here in BC?", rather I think the reality is that we in BC strive to maximize our return on investment so that we can provide the best possible standard of living with whatever means we have.

Also, that 300,000 figure includes the whole south end of Vancouver island and a bunch of the gulf islands. Victoria itself is much, much smaller, and even then, 300,000 is a very small town on a global market scale.


----------



## InfraredDream

Very interesting discussion that I am following for a few days now. I don't really wanna comment much, but I was wondering why looking for a better price is called "being cheap"? We make that much money and we need to budget the month the best possible way. And hobbies gets lower priority than all other payments. If I travel to Costco to get the biggest possible bag of flour or toilet paper, of course I will go to a fish store that sells equipment cheaper. But I still go to a special store to buy my organic milk that I can't find in Costco.
It is all a matter of compromise thus supporting the LPS, when it usually sells same equipment or fish way more expensive than another store, won't really work for most of the people.


----------



## Rastapus

Things seem to be veering a bit from what I interpreted from the original post. I think the intent of this thread was to point out how BC has a lagging aquarium industry and some reasons behind it in such a city where the trade should be thriving. I do think the geography has a lot to do with the price slashing mentality being in a main port but also just the attitude in general in a lot of LFS. Caring for the well being of fish should be any LPS's number one responsibility but as prices get lower and lower, husbandry suffers as well as the quality of the staff. 
I only comment on this thread because this industry has always been my passion and I hate to see it suffering because of a few bad actions. I have a look around at times and to be honest, I don't like what I see. I have travelled on business often and when I do, I visit a lot of LFS in other countries as well as within Canada. BC has a long way to go and hopefully the growth will not continue to suffer for the same reasons. I think this thread was to give everyone reading it something to think about as we all share interest in the hobby or we would not be here. I think many reading this have understood that but perhaps not all. We all want to see the industry thrive here and IMO supporting the stores that maintain proper health is the best way to go. We all have our favorites and hopefully stores can focus on all elements of the trade and not just trying to be the top dog on pricing, particularly when it comes to the livestock.


----------



## Algae Beater

We have truly digressed away from my original post, I was speaking about the basis of the industry. I was commenting on bottom up growth. Stimulating new hobbyists and creating the avenues with which current hobbyists can flourish and evolve. My debate was never truly about why you should price shop. No one actually needs a lesson in that. It’s about faith in the traditional ad most reliable means of distributing goods. 

I never actually say that buying from a hobbyist is bad, hell I have done it rather frequently! As stated, it strengthens the hobbyist network. What I do have issues with is the insinuation of late that retailers who are trying to support themselves are demonized for doing what they SHOULD do. I have seen situations where clubs or groups of hobbyists have attempted to strongarm retailers out of business by hijacking their wholesale accounts, livestock supply chains and so on. It sounds strange, but I have seen it far too many times.

Let’s not forget warranties, something not everyone ever remembers (until it’s too late) when ordering online a warranty is only honored when the defective unit is shipped back if at all. This costs money … so much for your “deal” 

As far as us being ‘that cheap’ was it the chicken or the egg? Did the practices of sellers create this environment or did the ethic of the hobbyists create the environment for the retailer? It’s a circular argument, and not worth the energy.


----------



## rescuepenguin

Wow, I have never heard of people being able to hijack wholesale accounts. I had wholesale accounts when I was in the computer biz, can't envision how you could do that.



Algae Beater said:


> ...
> 
> I never actually say that buying from a hobbyist is bad, hell I have done it rather frequently! As stated, it strengthens the hobbyist network. What I do have issues with is the insinuation of late that retailers who are trying to support themselves are demonized for doing what they SHOULD do. I have seen situations where clubs or groups of hobbyists have attempted to strongarm retailers out of business by hijacking their wholesale accounts, livestock supply chains and so on. It sounds strange, but I have seen it far too many times.
> 
> ...


----------



## InfraredDream

It is difficult to be in a such a discussion then. It seems that I eigther don't understand all the aspects of it or they do change as the discussion evolves.
I have no idea of "insinuation of late" and all this demonization of retailers. I haven't heard of it. I do like the retailers I am shoping from (IPU is among them). The quality of staff is very important and good stores have this advantage and it does matter.
What Grant mentioned about the quality of water is an issue for sure as I used to be in the hobby ears ago back in Europe and it was just so much easier than when I came back to it here in BC. I faced so many issues and I felt almost like a complete novice. Water was the reason for most of my troubles. So that makes difference in BC for sure.
Other than this I don't know why the industry is lower here than everywhere else. Private sales, used equipment and all that should be the same everywhere. We do have the Aquarium as a BIG influence for the next generation.
Let's put it like that, I do support the retailers that supports me - as quality of service, the environment in the store and the prices as well.


----------



## Algae Beater

What i meant by that 'insinuation' is the supposition that retailers gouge on price for no reason other than to screw the public at large.


----------



## Algae Beater

rescuepenguin said:


> Wow, I have never heard of people being able to hijack wholesale accounts. I had wholesale accounts when I was in the computer biz, can't envision how you could do that.


when groups of reef enthusiasts call wholesalers and demand they sell to them and not to the local store who has an established account or when livestock bound for a retail location is damaged or sabotaged on purpose by hobbyists ... things have reached a new low.


----------



## InfraredDream

I see. I never thought that, thus my comments.
I reacted to yours "being cheap" as I've heard that many times from people around me. It was used for what I mentioned, going to Costco to buy bulk goods. So I guess I made the wrong connection.

But why you think BC people are a minority to think that way? It sounds like a more general human nature thing. Especially for US where "consume"! is almost a religion. And they have everything REAL cheap. Like ordering a $1 part from China and having it shipped to your door FREE! That is absolutely ridiculous and I have NO idea how is this posssible. And still USA have a better state of industry than here? Hard to understand really.
From the other hand there obviously is a way to sell most of the equipment and supplies on much lower than even big stores as we have J&L as an example.

P.S. That last post from Algae Beater left me speechless. And why would they do so? What kind of enthusiasts are these? "Life is stranger than fiction" I guess. Lost for words here.


----------



## deepRED

For me, I am a long time customer at several LFS', including a lot of the ones mentioned. Over the past 7 or 8 years I have set up well over 100 aquariums for personal enjoyment as well as for others, many of which were new to the hobby. This is not my profession, but more of a side gig that helps me to offset my own hobby costs. 
Of all these setups, I would say I have spent about $55-60k. ( Mostly on other peoples' tanks thankfully.)

Of that money, I would say that probably 85-90% of it was spent at local fish stores with a storefront. 

I have done some importing myself, and I have also purchased some fish from the home based importers and breeders. 

In my opinion, each place that I frequent has it's place in the grand scheme of things, a niche so to speak. 
If I want to buy a tank, or equipment, or a certain type of fish, I know where I can source that, and where I can generally get the best quality and price. 

The reality is that the home based importer/retailer has carved out a niche in the market, whether people like it or not. 

The market for certain types of specialty fish are quite small and localized, and the community for these markets are quite small. ( everyone knows each other). 
For certain types of fish, I don't expect to see the bigger LFS' to bring them in, mainly because they are not what the mainstream consumer is after. There are only a relatively small group of hobbyists that are after these type of fish. If I am a car lot selling 100 honda civics a month consistently, I am not dropping the cash on bringing in 100 vintage cars. Why? because I may sell a handful, but the rest will end up sitting there unsold, tying up my capital. The market just isn't there for it. 
This doesn't just apply to expensive fish, but also scarcely seen or wanted species as well. 
This where I see the smaller importers having their place. Their customers are not your typical tetra and molly people, but are very specific about what they are after. 
However, this is not to say that the bigger shops cannot source these fish, in fact, many of them have better and more abundant contacts than the little guys. The point is that often times, it many not be worth it for them to bring in a box of a type of specialty fish from a seperate supplier just because someone wants 2 or 3. It's just a lot of work logistically, can often take up valuable tank space, and often it doesn't make financial sense. 

As for the home-based guys carrying the bread and butter fish? In my experience they are often priced around the same as the LFS'. Many times the LFS is even cheaper, so I haven't really seen much undercutting in that aspect.

Some of the responsibility has to go to the wholesalers. It seems to me that some of them will sell to whoever will buy, whether they are a legit business or not. If there was more regulation or at least agreement to who can actually carry and sell the goods, then you would have more control over pricing. If there are home based retailers bringing in equipment that is not available to the local market, that is a whole other story. Then it really comes down to the shops doing their homework and sourcing out items that people may want. Again, it comes down to a volume/margin issue, sometimes it just doesn't make sense to carry too many brands. 

As for certain retailers undercutting each other with loss leaders? It happens all the time in retail. Again, like it or not, there will always be someone willing to do it in order to get traffic in the door. 

In my industry, food and beverage, the competition is much more fierce and there are literally 100's of times more options.
There will always be your 25 cent wing people, your 3 dollar pint people, your buy one get one free etc...
These promotions do not guarantee success, nor do I feel they hurt the industry as a whole. 
The restaurants that will be sucessful are based on a few solid principles:
Good quality, good service, good value. If you can carve out a niche for yourself and follow those principles, you will have a much better chance at success in one the most cut-throat industries around.

I may sound like I am one sided in this argument, but really, like I said, I spent probably 85-90% at my LFS'. 
The reality is that as long as there are holes in the market that the shops can't fill logistically, there will be always be specialty retailers popping up to fill the gaps.
Although the internet has changed the way we shop, there will always be the consumer who wants that storefront. No matter how wide-reaching we think BCA is, there are even more people who don't know about the site, nor do they even care about the world of online or home based retailers.
The line may blur for some, but there are both types of customers.

I definitely see the value in the shops, which is why I support them. However, I feel that being upset about certain changes in the local market will unfortunately fall on deaf ears. The reality is that people will shop where quality and value reign, bottom line. It's cut-throat, but so is every industry.
Innovation and consistency in doing things right is what draws loyalty.

Just my two cents. For what it's worth.


----------



## rescuepenguin

Algae Beater said:


> when groups of reef enthusiasts call wholesalers and demand they sell to them and not to the local store who has an established account or when livestock bound for a retail location is damaged or sabotaged on purpose by hobbyists ... things have reached a new low.


That is pathetic, and shows who the true low life's are


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Algae Beater said:


> when groups of reef enthusiasts call wholesalers and demand they sell to them and not to the local store who has an established account or when livestock bound for a retail location is damaged or sabotaged on purpose by hobbyists ... things have reached a new low.


I assume the cops were called? That's blackmail. You're now talking about criminal activity. Not sure why anyone would condone this. That would be no different than a gang doing a protection racket and the cops should be dealing with this, not the industry.


----------



## Rastapus

My only comment left is yes this is an industry but not like any other. There is livestock involved which puts it on a different level. If we were talking dogs and cats here imagine the outrage. I personally am worried to see what impact this sort of selling has on the upkeep of the animals. I am not here to point fingers but I read constantly on this forum about fish being kept in poor conditions and how this and that was sick etc. It would be sad to see care sacrificed for the purpose of having the lowest price. I have seen this trend developing around and it concerns me for the hobby here in general. Again, this reflects back onto the original post. 
I enjoyed Deepred's post, thanks jeremy. Obviously there are heaps of hobbyists that appreciate the lengths a store will go to ensure quality etc. but the issue here I think is how some actions are affecting the growth of the hobby in a negative way. That's all I got.


----------



## InfraredDream

deepRED said:


> However, I feel that being upset about certain changes in the local market will unfortunately fall on deaf ears. The reality is that people will shop where quality and value reign, bottom line. It's cut-throat, but so is every industry.
> Innovation and consistency in doing things right is what draws loyalty.


Totally agree! My thoughts exactly.

But I can't really answer the original question why the state of industry is different here. The only issue I see is the water as Grant said.


----------



## Algae Beater

2wheelsx2 said:


> I assume the cops were called? That's blackmail. You're now talking about criminal activity. Not sure why anyone would condone this. That would be no different than a gang doing a protection racket and the cops should be dealing with this, not the industry.


I was told about a few instances where a retailer's fish and corals were messed with by a home-based hobbyist picking up a shipment the same night. (opening boxes and leaving them open to the cold winter's night. shoving a blade through the styro boxes to pop bags etc...)


----------



## deepRED

Algae Beater said:


> I was told about a few instances where a retailer's fish and corals were messed with by a home-based hobbyist picking up a shipment the same night. (opening boxes and leaving them open to the cold winter's night. shoving a blade through the styro boxes to pop bags etc...)


That is just crazy. Like Gary said, this is criminal activity, and should be dealt with as such.


----------



## InfraredDream

Yeah, this is not connected to the state of the industry in BC at all.


----------



## deepRED

Thanks Grant. I agree that this industry is special. Highly unregulated and everyone and their dog thinks they can do it. My worry is that there are too many self proclaimed "experts" who want to take a crack at it. 
At the end of the day, the fish suffer.
There are some out there who do it, and do it well, but the danger comes where you can't stop the poor ones from starting their own "business".



Rastapus said:


> My only comment left is yes this is an industry but not like any other. There is livestock involved which puts it on a different level. If we were talking dogs and cats here imagine the outrage. I personally am worried to see what impact this sort of selling has on the upkeep of the animals. I am not here to point fingers but I read constantly on this forum about fish being kept in poor conditions and how this and that was sick etc. It would be sad to see care sacrificed for the purpose of having the lowest price. I have seen this trend developing around and it concerns me for the hobby here in general. Again, this reflects back onto the original post.
> I enjoyed Deepred's post, thanks jeremy. Obviously there are heaps of hobbyists that appreciate the lengths a store will go to ensure quality etc. but the issue here I think is how some actions are affecting the growth of the hobby in a negative way. That's all I got.


----------



## Algae Beater

InfraredDream said:


> Totally agree! My thoughts exactly.
> 
> But I can't really answer the original question why the state of industry is different here. The only issue I see is the water as Grant said.


Its not that cut and dry, as stated a lot of it has to do with moral implications and principles outlined in previous posts. Don't interpret anything I'm saying as anger, I'm merely discussing a subject openly and debating certain points (AKA a forum!)


----------



## Algae Beater

InfraredDream said:


> Yeah, this is not connected to the state of the industry in BC at all.


merely pointed out as reference when people who have no business in the industry take on something they shouldn't


----------



## Rastapus

deepRED said:


> Thanks Grant. I agree that this industry is special. Highly unregulated and everyone and their dog thinks they can do it. My worry is that there are too many self proclaimed "experts" who want to take a crack at it.
> At the end of the day, the fish suffer.
> There are some out there who do it, and do it well, but the danger comes where you can't stop the poor ones from starting their own "business".


Agreed completely! The lack of regulation is a big part of it and yes, "special". For some, having an aquarium is experience enough to open a store or online. Not so. It's great to be involved in an industry that you love, it is when others devalue it, it loses some of it's fun factor.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Algae Beater said:


> I was told about a few instances where a retailer's fish and corals were messed with by a home-based hobbyist picking up a shipment the same night. (opening boxes and leaving them open to the cold winter's night. shoving a blade through the styro boxes to pop bags etc...)


How's that possible? Several guys here have had out of town shipments and I've shipped plenty of goods (for work) and when you go pick up, you're not allowed to go into the receiving area. Otherwise, anyone can pick up anything whether it's theirs or not. I can't imagine any shipping company allowing that to happen. They would be liable for the damage, not the receiver.


----------



## Algae Beater

2wheelsx2 said:


> How's that possible? Several guys here have had out of town shipments and I've shipped plenty of goods (for work) and when you go pick up, you're not allowed to go into the receiving area. Otherwise, anyone can pick up anything whether it's theirs or not. I can't imagine any shipping company allowing that to happen. They would be liable for the damage, not the receiver.


things can be a little different in small town USA

believe me, my job lets me here about a heap of VERY slimy happenings within this industry. Globally the industry is rather small... words get around


----------



## 123mars

The thread has digressed probably my fault! However, I think fishkeeping is not so trendy these days, and it is a macro trend type decline. I see Nano reefkeeping bucking the trend due to tech advances that makes it cheaper and easier. Not much we can do about the decline in fishkeeping as individuals living in Vancouver. We need a new movie called "finding pleco".

The slump may last along time....Remember comic book collecting? The game of Darts was hot once! Hocky cards? Whatever happened to Horse racing?

Dogs are trendy, at least for now...


----------



## Sidius

I apologize for bringing this old thread to the surface but I found it and it seems like a great discussion for an aquatic hobbyist forum.

My biggest gripe is with the LFS themselves and I blame them for their own demise. Yes there are a small select group of LFS around the Vancouver area that might be exempt from my rant but most fall into this catagory. They overcharge by a country mile in a lot of cases. Helping their business and helping the hobby flourish is not enough of a reason. There's no way that overhead can cause the prices that we often see. Here's my story and my reason why I feel this way....

When I first started keeping African cichlids, I was given a 75 gallon tank with Africans already in it because a friend no longer wanted to keep them. I was not new to keeping fish but I was new to keeping Africans. I went to a LFS (who is s sponsor on these forums so I will not include their name) to see if I could find a few new fish to add to my tank. My overall experience when visiting a lot of LFS, was that Africans weren't that beautiful (which I later learned was not true, of course). Most of the fish that the LFS brought in were pretty plain and not very colourful (most of them are mislabled and they're given blanket names like "Blue peacock" but that's a completely different rant). Nonetheless I was given this tank and wanted to be a good fish pappa. When I arrived at the LFS, I looked around and as usual didn't see much that caught my eye until I came to a tank with two stunning specimens that I had to have for my tank. They were priced @ $80 each! Unknowingly, I paid $160 for 2 fish and brought them home, one of which died within 3 weeks due to aggression from other fish. I was pretty discouraged and almost got rid of all the Africans to start that tank over again, with different fish, because my only experience was that decent African cichlids were too expensive to risk with such potentially aggressive fish. Fast forward a few months and I decided to get in on a group buy from another vendor on these forums (that doesn't have a store and doesn't live in BC) and I picked up 12 fish for less than I paid for the 2 previously mentioned and they were of equal or better quality. I'm sorry but overhead of keeping a store does not warrant pricing your fish @ over 4 or 5 times the price of online vendors. I'm not rich, I do not have endless money to throw away. I understand the argument of supporting local stores and helping the hobby in our area, but paying that much more for fish when the option of online purchasing saves you SO much money, is insanity. The experience described left such a sour taste in my mouth about buying from LFS that I refused to buy from them for a while, out of spite. Childish? Maybe... but I think it's somewhat warranted.

I've been to visit some other stores across the border and The Wet Spot in Portland comes to mind. The prices there are reasonable, a little higher than I would pay online (in some cases even if I order online from them), but reasonable. I don't mind paying a little bit more to support the brick and mortar store of a good company, but it has to be within reason.

Next... if you keep certain fish, it's impossible to find anything other than the same usual species at all the LFS. There are a couple LFS that bring in good African cichlids and different varieties but there's not enough of a market for them to bring them in with any frequency. That means if I want specific species for my tank (anyone who has an all-male African cichlid tank like me, knows that you can't have more than one of each species), I have no choice but to look online. This isn't necessarily the LFS fault. I understand that they wouldn't want to bring in fish that might not sell, when they could use that tank space for fish that do sell... but it means that I can't shop at their store that often, other than dry-goods.

/end rant


----------



## stratos

The combination of the internet (increased supply, lower prices, diverse products/livestock) and computer games (lower demand due to kids playing online and not caring about fishkeeping) combine for a perfect storm designed to make life hard for LFS. Fantasy Aquatics, IPU, King Ed Pets, J&L and Aprils are all vendors I can vouch for doing an amazing job in difficult circumstances. I would personally pay a bit more at any of these stores just to help them stay around. I can not comment on all the other stores out there that I do not know. The fish biz is a tough one for sure.


----------



## charles

I only have an e-store. But I can answer some of the questions for you.

Shipping cost in USA is a lot cheaper. Most places get their fish from either florida farms or Asia farm. That is why most domestic shipping is free in USA and in Canada is an arm and a leg.

Cost of keeping African... think about it... And I have personally experience as I started with African cichlids, you can bring in 50 per type to lower the cost, but most you are going to sell is about 10-15 fish in Canada, what is the store going to do with the rest? The LFS still needs to feed, keep, a wasted a space for them, and that also adds up the cost. There isn't just enough population to support it. In USA, easy to sell as price is lower, there are more people, and shipping sometimes doesn't cost much.

Types of African, face it, it is easy to breed. There is no way people will import anything remotely different just to sell a few dollars more. Especially peacocks, they are the same shape with different color. It is something that is easy to breed. When African market was good, we bought in Wild. Within six months, most who bought the wild now had their own F1 to sell for a small % of the cost of the wild. Who is going to bring in more wild to get stuck in the store?

I can think of a few more, but you get the idea. It is a small market. LFS actually brings them in to satisfy a small market which I applaud them. And you did answer your own question. A store can't just cater to each every single market. They have to think best for themselves. And if they choose to bring in African, they have to at least make some money so they can cover the losing end days to come.


----------



## April

Stratos is right. I get the question all the time..as do other stores. Can you bring in this fish? So 40 to a bag. Sure...how many do you want? One. Do I get a deal?the rest are not community type fish. The thing about a lfs is it gets beginners interested in fish keeping. Even a betta...begins the hobby. You get a 12 yr. old kid interested...especially if a quieter type kid..
I had a cute young 
Day come In today with 10.00 and a nice grandma who helped a bit.i sold her a used little tank with gravel and some good bacteria for 10.00 and a couple of fish. She was so excited and appreciative. It made my day. I like getting in cool things quality supplies, and higher end fish..and enjoy speaking to serious hobbyists..but I also enjoy the new hobbyist and watching as they succeed . .
I know two more stores closing out as of right now..sad.


----------



## DBam

This is an interesting discussion to reopen. Forgive me, I didn't go back and read every single post, nor do I remember them all from 3 years ago. Charles is absolutely dead on about shipping costs, so let's not forget how that factors in. Also, recession has been weighing heavily. Go back to mid 2000's and people were spending much, much more on their hobbies. Furthermore, the internet has really revolutionized the way retail is done. Why pay to rent a commercial rental space when you can go online and sell items that are stocked in the garage? Those commercial spaces cost thousands or tens of thousands per month in rent, and a business run from home gives nice tax kickbacks to the owner. Sure these smaller businesses might only occupy certain niches, but the more serious keepers will get their discus, plecos, shrimp, plants or whatever from them the (vastly greater) majority of the time. It's what I do, and probably lots of you too. If someone sells the same thing at a lower price, why pay more? Of course bigger places are going to be forced to sell their standard community fish at higher prices now, the shipping's more, rent hasn't gone down and people have access to greater selection with small businesses and the internet.


----------



## Clownloachlover

personally I like the touch and feel of a retail store...I like the personal interaction with a store clerk in the event I have questions, but I will also use the internet to educate myself on what it is I am looking to buy. It is tough to estimate size and shape of something you want to buy over the internet...they may post the dimensions but nothing beats 3D viewing. Personally I would never buy livestock through mail order ever...it is too hard on what it is you are buying...I feel for retailers today, it is a very tough business and I can understand why some of them go out of business. Land is expensive, property taxes are higher than ever, landlords want premium money for rental space, especially in prime retail areas. Ask someone how much they pay for rent in and around heavy transit corridors...big bucks...you would have to have a solid business plan with pretty deep pockets to stay in business in those areas. Have I purchased products through the internet, yes I have. I may have even seen it at a retail store and chose to buy it less expensively online...is that the right thing to do to support the hobby? well it is the money in my pocket buying it to satisfy my needs not the needs of the retailers. Retail will never go away, it will just be tougher and tougher to find those small intimate business where the store owner is the sales clerk, who is the janitor, who is the service person, who is the jack of all trades to all people entering his or her business...and given the slimmer profit margins people are expected to operate on this will happen again and again!


----------



## charles

Clownloachlover said:


> the store owner is the sales clerk, who is the janitor, who is the service person, who is the jack of all trades to all people entering his or her business...and given the slimmer profit margins people are expected to operate on this will happen again and again!


This kind of describe what I do  So true...


----------



## tony1928

The longer I've been in this hobby the more appreciative I am of LFS owners who decide to make a go of it. They can be successful but it will always be by satisfying a niche. Be it an intimate setting with hobbyist shopkeepers or a local shop that can offer competitively price dry goods. Online shopping has fewer and fewer barriers for us Canadians to participate in that. Like most of us, for equipment its very hard for us to ignore online prices. Sponsors like J&L are a great example of being able to compete against the online shops. It can be done. As others have said, I value having LFS around especially for youngsters as an entry into the hobby. I have many fond memories of doing my rounds of all the LFS in the lower mainland.


----------

