# Tail standing discus?!



## dwarf_puffer

Today I treated my tank for callamus worms and within an hour now 2 of my discus are tail standing. what should i do?!


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## dean9922

I would start with doing a BIG water change if they are doing that and see if they get any better. What did you use for treating the worms????


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## dwarf_puffer

i cant do a water change as im treating with levamisole HCL


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## dean9922

Levamisole is used for nemetodes (roundworms)....have you seen signs of worms???? As far as I understand about cammallanus worm, you will see an infection being red and worm like creature protruding from the anus...have you seen that????


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## April

Nothing you can do. They may get better and may never. Did the discus have camallus worms? Are they in with other fish? Flubendazole causes head standing in discus for sure. I'd take them out and put them in a bare bottom tank with new clean water. Obviously it was too hard on them.


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## dean9922

how did you make out??????


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## bonsai dave

How much Levamisole did you use? I have not had any problems in the past using it on my discus?


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## dwarf_puffer

yes there defiantly was callamus worms in the tank. i used the correct amount of 5g to 100 gallons. 6 of 8 discus are total fine still one has gotton worse and now is lying completely on its side and the other is roughly in the same state perhaps slightly better. the two sick ones are currently in R/O water at about 90 degrees with some salt is there anything else i can do?


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## April

Sounds more like your ph was lowered too fast. Ph shock if they are now on their side. Why ro water? Our water is already almost ro water out of the tap and needs buffering. or minerals added, I'd keep your ph at 7 to be safe from crashes. Ph shock or crash is the cause of most discus losses. Any .cloudy eyes?


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## dwarf_puffer

no their eye are both very clear i mixed part of the tank water with some of my purified water from up stairs as i have found in the past it has always helped  my water in largely is not very good the Ph is more like 7.3-4ish


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## dwarf_puffer

is there any minerals i can add? i have a bunch of stuff for shrimp :s


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## dean9922

a ph of 7.3 -7.4 would be fine for them...mine is 7.6-7.8. and even higher ph values they can survive in. Stability of there water conditions is key..... I would skip the RO unless you have a pair which is laying eggs. I did not realize that you had to add buffers in the water of vancouver....good luck.


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## dwarf_puffer

Also I don't think it's pH shock as the discus was on it's side before I changed it to the R\O water


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## dean9922

Have you isolated the 2 sick discus into a quarantine tank...just to make sure that nothing spreads to the other healthier ones.


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## dwarf_puffer

yes the two sick ones are in quarantine alone. the larger one on its side is now starting to develop soars on one side that it was lying on? anyone have any ideas of what else i can do


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## dwarf_puffer

is there any food i can feed to help?


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## gklaw

I found quarantine often stress out the fish. I had two of my largest discus in a 12g quarantine (to treat protozoan) for couple of weeks - not eating at all. As soon as I put them back in the 75 gallon. They start eating again.

I am no expert - just my recent experience. Good luck, I know its heart breaking. I have to put down three.


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## dean9922

Do a huge water change and re-use the levem meds you have....and maybe see if April or someone carries Flubendazol and mix into there food (BeefHeart or Seafood Mix) If you can get them to eat it, hopefully this will kill the ones attached. You have a nasty disease going on. Can you post any pictures of the sick fish????
My thoughts are that you have to hit them internally and externally to....
I would also treat the other fish you have, as you may not see anything externally yet, it wouldn't be a bad idea to clean them out to. Not sure if the levemisole kills the eggs or not. Maybe Dave or April or someone knows the answer to that one. Good Luck!!!!


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## April

Check for ammonia. Are you sure you don't have a discus skin disease? Have you added new stock lately?
They arent about to eat if they have sores and on their side forget treating withi
More dewormers that's not their problem. Do they have slime coat and dark? Were they huddling before that?


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## dwarf_puffer

I did add new stock but it was move a weak ago and they seemed totally fine and the new discus were all very healthy. The two sick discus are not dark. Perhaps slightly but nothing major and I can still see the pattern. Before inpulled out the sick two all the discus were huddling someone close together as well.


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## dwarf_puffer

the two in the bucket defiantly huddle though the smaller one seems to be doing slightly better now and swimming is just slightly off with its head up just a bit when it hovers however no signs of improvement for the larger one  the smaller one defiantly seemed to be lacking a slime coat however the larger one seemed to have a moderate slime coat perhaps a few patches without however that might have just been from lying on its side


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## dwarf_puffer

after doing some more research and such i have found that levasoile HCL raising ammonia . with this as subjected by april i tested the water and sure enough there is defiantly some issues their. vie added an ammonia absorber bag now in hopes of reversing this  the ammonia levels have tested around .25 mg/L which is not good hopefully after neutralizing the ammonia the negative effects will be reversed


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## hillmar

Wouldn't just dosing prime solve the problem??
Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.
Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together.
Seachem. Prime


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## April

A big wc and salt is best. Discus ca nt take ammonia.check your ph also.add two tablespoons salt per 10 gallons. Which ones dong show slime? Non barred ones? Ammonia will create slime. I still say ammonia,ph drop and partial crash from ammonia caused it. I've seen it myself. Laying on their side, sores, all signs of ph drop too fast which can happen from ammonia. That's the reason I always buffer as I've had ph crashes and those problems over the years.


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## Chappy

Yeah, what she said!! pH crashes = unhappy discus and by the sounds of it, that's what you've got. When you step into an elevator with a bunch of people sneezing, you don't walk out of the elevator sick. It takes a few days. If a fish is carrying something, you can't expect that it will show immediately. Could take forever, maybe NEVER. But for the first little while, EVERYTHING is succeptible to the good and the bad brought in by new fish.

Fresh water, and salt. Plenty of each. AND NOTHING ELSE!!!! Especially NOT shrimp minerals  Discus will not tolerate you not knowing what you're doing - they demand you spend hours learning about them. Anything less and they don't do well. No medication EVER, unless it's the very last resort. Of course, this is IMO and based on my own experiences (and yes, DISASTERS).
Good luck.


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## dwarf_puffer

ok perfect thanks for everyone for helping me out. ill keep everyone posted. today was the last day of the treatment in the larger tank and i don't believe the larger discus (one on its side) had any issues from the get go so after my large water change should i add her back to the original tank with the others? and it was the larger one with the slime coat the other smaller one ( which i suspect had worms due to its stunted growth * before i purchased it which i know i shouldn't have done but it was too cute  ** ) seemed to be lacking a slime coat.


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## dwarf_puffer

Morning update I really don't suspect the larger one to make it. The last twelve hours have not been good to it's fins and the soars have expanded  the smaller one is remaining the same with still slightly off swimming I've now drained a refilled my large tank which they came out of and all the other discus and fish seem to be in perfect condition


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## dwarf_puffer

nightly update. the large discus is still alive. today it seems very motionless but with this i propped it right side up against the bucket so at least it isn't on its side anymore. breathing is slower but not breathing hard at all seems very relaxed? one eye has a slight cloud to it now and there is pretty bad fin damage  the smaller one is still in the small satus as before


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## April

So you added stock from different sources then? Discus can carry. Bacterial infections, viral, etc for quite some time.
Sounds like the big guy. Is in very bad shape. Sorry to hear. You won't be able to add new stock for awhile. If its a slime coat disease or pathogen . Excess slime coat can make ammonia spike.


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## gklaw

Sorry to hear  But why prolong its suffering?


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## dwarf_puffer

Big guy didn't make it through the night and no it was never moved my quarantine tank is a bucket as my old 10 gallon recently broke


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## seanyuki

Perhaps a pic may help us to determine something.

just sharing....

Headstanding, Loss of Balance

Usually loss of balance is caused by one of the following conditions:

Water quality: Poor water conditions (ammonia, nitrite, foul water)
Digestive system blockages: Dry foods that swell up inside fish, parasites (flagellates or worms) (usually bloating is visible)
Swimbladder problem: Bacterial, drop in temperature, flagellates, tumor (Untergasser, 1989)
Medication reaction
Blood flagellates (Untergasser, Handbook Fish Diseases, 1989 by TFH Publications)

Treatment

Check water parameters, do large water changes
Look for bloat, add Epsom salt 1 to 2 tablespoons/10 gallons, treat for internal parasites if Epsom salt does not relieve bloat
Sometimes a pH of 5.0 to 6.0 may help if it is infection
Salt at 1 to 2 tablespoons/10 gallons help ease stress and fight infection
Antibiotics may help

SimplyDiscus.com: Headstanding, Loss of Balance by Ardan Huck

just my 2 cents


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## Chappy

Perfect advice, Francis. Unfortunately, it seems too late for one, but hopefully the rest will survive.


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## dean9922

been out of town a few days....sorry to hear about the bigger discus. Is the smaller one still hanging on???
Do you still have it quarantined. I would certainly not have it in with the other discus. As April stated when someone sneezes, you don't get sick immedietly but you can a few days later......
Discus can also go without eating for a long time....don't be concerned with that, try to cure what is going on. 
You also stated that you saw the callamanus worms, so I would certainly treat the other discus with the levemosol as a precaution.
Hopefully you can save the smaller one.....and as Francis and April stated definitely use the salt in quarantine and I would even put it in the larger tank.


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