# How do you make fish grow faster?



## Edarion

is there any " magic" formula that you can do to make fish grow faster...
or is it simply a process of keeping the water clean


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## Jay2x

give it grow hormones? lol


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## Rastapus

Very frequent water change. Most breeders perform daily water changes to speed up growth. Aquaculture commercially works under the same premise. Pheromones accumulate in our aquariums acting as a growth inhibitor. By diluting these levels through water change fish will grow at a much higher rate.

Also ensure your aquarium is properly buffered, to ensure there is adequate calcium and other minerals present in the water. Our "sticky" on water quality in BC explains this.


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## beN

water changes as per Grant from Island Pets. Apparently Fish release hormones in the water which make them i guess you can say "uncomfortable" so when you do a water change apparently all of those hormones are lost and fish will gain size from having a clean change.


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## beN

Rastapus said:


> Very frequent water change. Most breeders perform daily water changes to speed up growth. Aquaculture commercially works under the same premise. Pheromones accumulate in our aquariums acting as a growth inhibitor. By diluting these levels through water change fish will grow at a much higher rate.
> 
> Also ensure your aquarium is properly buffered, to ensure there is adequate calcium and other minerals present in the water. Our "sticky" on water quality in BC explains this.


you beat me to it!! hahaha


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## Rastapus

beN said:


> water changes as per Grant from Island Pets. Apparently Fish release hormones in the water which make them i guess you can say "uncomfortable" so when you do a water change apparently all of those hormones are lost and fish will gain size from having a clean change.


Hey Ben, Pheromones are naturally produced by fish as natures defense against outgrowing their environment. These Pheromones are diluted naturally in the wild but in a closed system they accumulate. Yet another reason why water changes are crucial to an aquarium. I cant tell you how many hobbyists don't perform water changes at all.
Pheromones don't evaporate.........


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## beN

Rastapus said:


> Hey Ben, Pheromones are naturally produced by fish as natures defense against outgrowing their environment. These Pheromones are diluted naturally in the wild but in a closed system they accumulate. Yet another reason why water changes are crucial to an aquarium. I cant tell you how many hobbyists don't perform water changes at all.
> Pheromones don't evaporate.........


thats some cool info !.. there you have it folks..KEEP DOING YOUR WATER CHANGES!!!.. i heard Clown Loaches will grow faster if you do changes 3 times a week. So I assume its with all fish.


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## Mferko

yeah the pheromones are produced by the fish which also has receptors for these pheromones, a higher concentration of them will imply a smaller body of water and the fish wont grow as big, a low concentration and the body interprets this as a large body of water and keeps growing
daily water changes will keep the pheromone concentrations low, simulating a large body of water, = fast growth and large final size.
but it doesnt stop there either
enzymes work best within a specific ph as well as temperature, they can start to become denatured outside of the optimal conditions. like most reactions, heat will usually speed up how fast the enzymes are working (heat means the molecules in the solution are moving around faster, therefore they collide and "fit" into the active site on the enzyme more often. you want to have the tank on the warmer side of the fishes optimal temperature range keeping in mind most enzymes are more tolerant to being cold than hot, so dont go too hot!

long story short, do lots of water changes and keep the temperature near the high end of what the fish like, and keep the PH in the optimal range to keep the enzymes cranking out products as fast as possible.


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## thharris

umm cant you just bump the heat up as well?


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## Mferko

thharris said:


> umm cant you just bump the heat up as well?


someone didnt read my wall of text.


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## rescuepenguin

I do smaller, more frequent water changes. Grant gave 1 really good explanation. I have no problem doing a 5 gal water change in a 40 gal breeder every 2 days. Whenever I do a water change, I do it as a vacuum. I also have at least one more sponge filter than I think I need. Remember too, quality of food is a factor. 

Sometimes you'll see a few grow a lot faster than the others. This is due to competition for food. If you can have several grow out tanks so you can keep fish of different sizes separate.

Steve


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## Captured Moments

So, if you don't want your fish or a particular fish to grow fast, the reverse is true then? Do rarely water changes?
I thought also that growth rate was somewhat depending on feeding rate and amount and quality of food. Yeah?


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## Mferko

Captured Moments said:


> So, if you don't want your fish or a particular fish to grow fast, the reverse is true then? Do rarely water changes?
> I thought also that growth rate was somewhat depending on feeding rate and amount and quality of food. Yeah?


yeah, i read you can stunt monster fish growth on purpose this way, soak up the nitrogenous wastes chemically and let the pheromones accumulate.


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## Edarion

How much water should I change each time... is %50 too much?


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## hp10BII

Edarion said:


> How much water should I change each time... is %50 too much?


If your new water parameters are close to your tank's, 50% is fine. I do 50 to 75% on all my tanks. For juvenile fish I'm trying to grow out, I do daily water changes.


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## Rastapus

Edarion said:


> How much water should I change each time... is %50 too much?


50% is considered the maximum safe water change. More than that can shock the fish unless the parameters are adjusted in the new water to match the aquarium conditions. Even then, it can be hard on the fish to do so.


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## Edarion

Constant water change won't stress out my fish???? Isn't a constantly changing environment stressful?


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## Rastapus

Captured Moments said:


> So, if you don't want your fish or a particular fish to grow fast, the reverse is true then? Do rarely water changes?
> I thought also that growth rate was somewhat depending on feeding rate and amount and quality of food. Yeah?


There is a fine line between slowing the growth of your fish and stunting your fish to the point of deformity. Assuming your aquarium size is appropriate to the fish being kept, there is no moral reason to restrict their growth.


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## Edarion

So basically daily 50% water changes with a bit of Replenish will increase fish growth.
Replenish is added in with each water change? or is it like aquarium salt. where you add most of it in the first time and then slowly add some more every couple of months


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## rescuepenguin

I have caused a nitrite spike with frequent large water changes (measured with my test kit). That is why I do more frequent and smaller water changes. The large number of sponge filters is not only an effort to keep the levels steady, but to give me cycled filter media when we need to set up a new tank. I make my own filters.

Steve


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## Rastapus

Edarion said:


> So basically daily 50% water changes with a bit of Replenish will increase fish growth.
> Replenish is added in with each water change? Or is it like aquarium salt, where you add most of it in the first time and then slowly add some more every couple of months?


Most supplements you would only add the amount appropriate for the amount of water changed. Any dosage of a product like Replenish would be added based on testing the specific parameter, in this case GH.


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## josephl

Edarion said:


> How much water should I change each time... is %50 too much?


Using a python, I drain 50% of the water in my 240 gallon discus tank and refill X 3 daily, only adding prime and epsom salts, feed lots and the discus and plecos seem very happy. No signs of stress at all


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## Mferko

josephl said:


> Using a python, I drain 50% of the water in my 240 gallon discus tank and refill X 3 daily, only adding prime and epsom salts, feed lots and the discus and plecos seem very happy. No signs of stress at all


#1 overkill
#2 irresponsible
#3 the rest of us are paying to treat your water, thx.


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## Edarion

Nothing wrong with a little selfishness in a capitalist society eh?. He's just making sure that he's using the most of his tax dollers


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## Rastapus

Mferko said:


> #1 overkill
> #2 irresponsible
> #3 the rest of us are paying to treat your water, thx.


*That's a bit strong don't you think?* 
Good on you Joseph!


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## Johnnyfishtanks

Mferko said:


> #1 overkill
> #2 irresponsible
> #3 the rest of us are paying to treat your water, thx.


???????????? im do water changes all the time thank god for no water meters hahahahhahahahah LOL LOL LOL LOL
like all the water treatment that goes towards cleaning water then wasting it on car washes and watering lawns, the city treatment water system is a little screwy if you ask me . thank god for no water meters LOL
I rather waste water on my hobby and going overkill with it LOL
complaining that its overkill are you for real?. you know whats overkill not people wasting water for aquariums. butt people in the lowermain land like millions of people taking a crap in clean treated drinking water


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## Aquaman

Mferko said:


> #1 overkill
> #2 irresponsible
> #3 the rest of us are paying to treat your water, thx.


Well I gotta tell ya the guy is right 2 out of 3 here boys 
he didnt think #3 through though ...we dont pay for treating his water ...ie prime etc, though it still goes through a treatment plant in the end so he could be 3 for 3 

SO you mean to tell me that using 360 gallons of water every day on water change on a 240 gallon tank is 
#1...... not overkill  
#2..... responsible  yea right ......
.
Now take into account that a python uses twice the water it sucks out ( will get back to you on this ...maybe ) 
You are talking about in excess of 500 gallons of water being used everyday to do a w.c on a 240 gallon tank 

Sheesh you guys ....poor Mother nature ....we may well be doomed with that line of thinking. entitled to our entitlements ...get it while ya can guys.
500 gallons of water LOL...every day ....OMFG on a 240 tank even ...

ARRRRRRG!!!!........there!!! I feel better 
bill


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## Captured Moments

Rastapus said:


> There is a fine line between slowing the growth of your fish and stunting your fish to the point of deformity. Assuming your aquarium size is appropriate to the fish being kept, there is no moral reason to restrict their growth.





Mferko said:


> yeah, i read you can stunt monster fish growth on purpose this way, soak up the nitrogenous wastes chemically and let the pheromones accumulate.


Thanks. I learned something today. I didn't know about the hormones and the natural system to slow growth. I wouldn't want to stun the growth as Grant mentioned but I would be ok with not wanting a fish to grow too fast.


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## Aquaman

LOL almost 30 posts and not one mention of regular feedings .That tends to make a fish grow pretty fast too .....mind you with all that food you will have to up your w/c's a tad ..darn I did 10 waterchanges a day and my fish all died ....go figure I only fed them once a day just after the 6th w/c .
There i'm done now


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## ibenu

Ive seen a real increase in size of fish with "better" AKA more expensive foods. 
Australlian freezdried black worms.
Beef heart flakes from simplydiscus sponsor (contains progrow and other goodies)
Shaved chicken hearts..

Fish that had stayed the same size for months on NLS and other LFS foods big growth spurt with the new foods I mentioned above....


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## Mferko

Johnnyfishtanks said:


> ???????????? im do water changes all the time thank god for no water meters hahahahhahahahah LOL LOL LOL LOL
> like all the water treatment that goes towards cleaning water then wasting it on car washes and watering lawns, the city treatment water system is a little screwy if you ask me . thank god for no water meters LOL
> I rather waste water on my hobby and going overkill with it LOL
> complaining that its overkill are you for real?. you know whats overkill not people wasting water for aquariums. butt people in the lowermain land like millions of people taking a crap in clean treated drinking water


i agree with you that lawns are a waste of water, most people wont dispute that. and yes, if your washing your car every day, its wasteful.
the reason there are no meters on residences is to save taxpayers money, after all, they cost money to install. its not so people can be wasteful. part of the reason some people want meters installed despite the price is so that others are discouraged to be wasteful, and have an incentive to conserve in the forms of savings on their bills.
fyi, the city's dont treat water, they are only responsible for the lines, metro vancouver treats the water.
just because you pay for a service doesn't mean you are entitled to abuse it, the rest of us are paying for it too!



Rastapus said:


> *That's a bit strong don't you think?*
> Good on you Joseph!


understandable, using more water and buying more dechlorinator is good for business 
and yes, i feel strongly about conservation, and sometimes i cant help but rant at the people we're not getting through to.
50% daily is one thing, 150% though?

aquaman sees it, it all has to get treated in the end (prime doesnt treat water,) its waste in the form of BOD and needs to go through an anaerobic digester. 3/3
if joseph had said he's into aquaculture and uses the water in his vegetable garden i'd be praising him



ibenu said:


> Ive seen a real increase in size of fish with "better" AKA more expensive foods.
> Australlian freezdried black worms.
> Beef heart flakes from simplydiscus sponsor (contains progrow and other goodies)
> Shaved chicken hearts..
> 
> Fish that had stayed the same size for months on NLS and other LFS foods big growth spurt with the new foods I mentioned above....


interesting, i feed NLS and PE mysis shrimp, if you had to recommend one of those 3 as a supplement to their diet which would be #1?


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## Rastapus

Mferko said:


> i agree with you that lawns are a waste of water, most people wont dispute that. and yes, if your washing your car every day, its wasteful.
> the reason there are no meters on residences is to save taxpayers money, after all, they cost money to install. its not so people can be wasteful. part of the reason some people want meters installed despite the price is so that others are discouraged to be wasteful, and have an incentive to conserve in the forms of savings on their bills.
> fyi, the city's dont treat water, they are only responsible for the lines, metro vancouver treats the water.
> just because you pay for a service doesn't mean you are entitled to abuse it, the rest of us are paying for it too!
> 
> understandable, using more water and buying more dechlorinator is good for business
> and yes, i feel strongly about conservation, and sometimes i cant help but rant at the people we're not getting through to.
> 50% daily is one thing, 150% though?
> 
> aquaman sees it, it all has to get treated in the end (prime doesnt treat water,) its waste in the form of BOD and needs to go through an anaerobic digester. 3/3
> if joseph had said he's into aquaculture and uses the water in his vegetable garden i'd be praising him
> 
> interesting, i feed NLS and PE mysis shrimp, if you had to recommend one of those 3 as a supplement to their diet which would be #1?


Wow, I like this one. Thank god you put a smiley after the dechlorinator comment. I have known many discus hobbyists to perform similar water changes on their aquariums in this fashion. To term a fellow member here as irresponsible for doing so is still IMO a little strong. Yes on a conservation level I can see your point but hey, lets all get rid of our aquariums, afterall, aren't they a waste of our resource on a whole? How far do you want to take this? Don't worry, I am sure there are enough hobbyists ignoring adequate water change that Joseph is still keeping the provincial aquarium water change quota at a minimum.


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## Rastapus

Yes, food helps growth!


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## ibenu

I would not recommend feeding just one food no matter what it was (yet t find such a food) BUT Australian FDBW have been taken by wilds that had not taken much other foods safe for beef heart, then I got the flake and they have been great.

Best flake has been Plymothdiscus.com from UK, doesnt break apart much at all... 

A variety of good good foods seem to be key, but bulk builders the australian FDBW for sure!!!! fattened up a bunch of discus


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## April

to grow discus to their full potential and proper shape..they have to have large wcs . hence you see alot of mis shapen and small skinny discus in lfs. 
i also do 80 percent wcs on my discus. good food..good water..good healthy strong fish. 
i also use beefheart recipe, aussie blackworms, and beefheart flake for my discus. a varied diet is best..as if one food is low on one or two essential nutrients..the other may fill the gap.
in australia where they have very strict water enforcements..and..they reuse the water from sewage..the aquaculture industry is exempt. they have to use water..or it wouldnt be aquaculture..and oz supplies alot of eating and ornamental fish to alot of the world. ie. tilapia, crustaceans and shellfish market etc..to asia etc. 
besides..i have it from a good source that joseph does use his waste water to water his gardens.. 
the discus farms in asia have flow through systems or 24/7 drip systems. hence good growth , good shape..good eye to body ratio. no pointy little noses and big eyes. shape goes with growth and wcs. 
i dont believe its fair or right to buy a monster fish with the idea of not caring for it and keeping it smaller. as rasputus said..you can get stunted and deformed shape..and with stress etc..comes parasites.poor health..etc..and eventually death.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Multiple small feedings spaced throughout the day rather than 1 or 2 big feedings. Multiple filters to keep up with my heavily feeding schedule.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Mferko said:


> i agree with you that lawns are a waste of water, most people wont dispute that. and yes, if your washing your car every day, its wasteful.
> 
> if joseph had said he's into aquaculture and uses the water in his vegetable garden i'd be praising him
> 
> interesting, i feed NLS and PE mysis shrimp, if you had to recommend one of those 3 as a supplement to their diet which would be #1?


I'm not a big fan of lawns either (other than for my little girl to run around on). Otherwise, I'd rather dig up my side of the backyard lawn to install a big koi pond and build more garden boxes to grow vegetables.

BTW, all my waste water from the fw tanks, including the koi tank outside, goes to water my vegetables, herbs, blueberries & strawberries. Awesome natural fertilizer supplement.

I also feed NLS (got it from April when she cleared it out & from another member who was leaving the hobby) and PE mysis. I also feed some Hikari bloodworm & Tetra Colourbits.


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## Mferko

SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> I'm not a big fan of lawns either (other than for my little girl to run around on). Otherwise, I'd rather dig up my side of the backyard lawn to install a big koi pond and build more garden boxes to grow vegetables.
> 
> BTW, all my waste water from the fw tanks, including the koi tank outside, goes to water my vegetables, herbs, blueberries & strawberries. Awesome natural fertilizer supplement.
> 
> I also feed NLS (got it from April when she cleared it out & from another member who was leaving the hobby) and PE mysis. I also feed some Hikari bloodworm & Tetra Colourbits.


thats awesome!
my water goes to my balcony veggie garden, thirsty tomatoes and potatoes  herbs too and mint for mojitos
its not that im anti-lawn or anthing lol, living in a paved city would suck, imagine the heat! but watering them daily would be a waste... as would a daily car wash 
we all gotta think sustainability, by all means do your daily water changes and give your fishies a good life, just try not to be wasteful.


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## josephl

Mferko said:


> #1 overkill
> #2 irresponsible
> #3 the rest of us are paying to treat your water, thx.


Thank you for your thoughtful input. I'm glad that you took the time to find out about what fish I keep, what I do with my waste water and my neighbourhood before you provided this forum with your thoughtful insight.

#1 Overkill - I don't think so, if you would like to come and see the color and size of my discus and plecos, I would challenge you to say that I have been very responsible towards their care and that the number of water changes I do is overkill. In the wild, discus, zebra plecos and Altums come from constantly flowing rivers where the water is constantly being refreshed, how does changing their water once a day become overkill?

#2 Irresponsible - Thank you for the civics lesson. Might I ask you which local breeder you get your fish from and does that breeder use well water and what does the breeder do with the water after they are done with it and after they have added chemicals etc. to it because it would be irresponsible to pump this chemicalized water with fish poop back into the water system. I ask this because I wonder if its any less responsible for you to be buying fish that has been flown in from Asia or other tropical parts of the world via an airline, then taken to a LFS that changes their water on a regular basis then to your house where you used polluting gasoline to go to the LFS to buy the fish? Of course, if you had taken the time to ask what I do with the waste water before commenting, I would have told you that (1) I do not have a lawn (2) I have used long lasting cedar planks to build a back deck and planted it with low maintenance plants and (3) I use at least some of the water from the tank to water the plants in the garden with and finally (4) I have my tank on the main floor and the python outlet in a basement bathroom so no, I don't use double the water to do a water change, only just enough to get the syphon going. To be clear, I use some water to water my garden, the rest goes out through the python. Again, thanks for asking first.

#3 I'm not sure on what evidence you have to back up this comment but in Strathcona, we have been water metered for over a year now so unless you can show myself and this forum financial numbers based on fact not speculation that show that despite my paying for the water I actually use because I am metered, that (1) you are still subsidizing my water usage and (2) that my water usage that is metered actually cost less than yours that isn't, then to be blunt, I think you were "pulling numbers out of your ar*e" and you might want to consider an apology.


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## Mferko

josephl said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful input. I'm glad that you took the time to find out about what fish I keep, what I do with my waste water and my neighbourhood before you provided this forum with your thoughtful insight.
> 
> #1 Overkill - I don't think so, if you would like to come and see the color and size of my discus and plecos, I would challenge you to say that I have been very responsible towards their care and that the number of water changes I do is overkill. In the wild, discus, zebra plecos and Altums come from constantly flowing rivers where the water is constantly being refreshed, how does changing their water once a day become overkill?
> 
> #2 Irresponsible - Thank you for the civics lesson. Might I ask you which local breeder you get your fish from and does that breeder use well water and what does the breeder do with the water after they are done with it and after they have added chemicals etc. to it because it would be irresponsible to pump this chemicalized water with fish poop back into the water system. I ask this because I wonder if its any less responsible for you to be buying fish that has been flown in from Asia or other tropical parts of the world via an airline, then taken to a LFS that changes their water on a regular basis then to your house where you used polluting gasoline to go to the LFS to buy the fish? Of course, if you had taken the time to ask what I do with the waste water before commenting, I would have told you that (1) I do not have a lawn (2) I have used long lasting cedar planks to build a back deck and planted it with low maintenance plants and (3) I use at least some of the water from the tank to water the plants in the garden with and finally (4) I have my tank on the main floor and the python outlet in a basement bathroom so no, I don't use double the water to do a water change, only just enough to get the syphon going. Again, thanks for asking first.
> 
> #3 I'm not sure on what evidence you have to back up this comment but in Strathcona, we have been water metered for over a year now so unless you can show myself and this forum financial numbers based on fact not speculation that show that despite my paying for the water I actually use because I am metered, that (1) you are still subsidizing my water usage and (2) that my water usage that is metered actually cost less than yours that isn't, then to be blunt, I think you were "pulling numbers out of your ar*e" and you might want to consider an apology.


#1 yes it is overkill, its likely youd get the same result with 50-80% daily changes.
LFS are metered, they're paying for their water, and i dont drive i walk and use transit, i ended my lease over a year ago because the car was always parked.
im not trying to attack you personally, if it seems that way i do apologize, what im saying is that recommending everyone on here to do 150% daily changes for the sake of making their fish grow a bit faster is wasteful. 
the vast majority of residences in the lower mainland are NOT metered. thats likely going to change in the near future, and new residences are now required to install meters.
and just to be clear, the fact that it is being paid for doesn't make it OK to be wasteful



tony1928 said:


> There's a water bill?!?! LOL. There's none yet in Vancouver for residential detached homes. No meters. My friends in California definitely pay for every gallon they use.


360 gallons a day and your saying first that you use it in the garden and then that you drain it to the basement so the python doesnt waste water. is your yard in your basement?

then you accuse me of BS'ing


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## josephl

Mferko said:


> #1 yes it is overkill, its likely youd get the same result with 50-80% daily changes.
> LFS are metered, they're paying for their water, and i dont drive i walk and use transit, i ended my lease over a year ago because the car was always parked.
> im not trying to attack you personally, what im saying is that recommending everyone on here to do 150% daily changes for the sake of making their fish grow a bit faster is wasteful.
> 
> 360 gallons a day and your saying first that you use it in the garden and then that you drain it to the basement so the python doesnt waste water. is your yard in your basement?
> 
> then you accuse me of BS'ing


Good point on the python - to clarify, a pump and a hose to water in the garden, python to drain to basement once garden is watered. I have modifed my earlier post.

Are you sure that all LFS are metered?

Any comments on whether you are costing the tax payer more $ or am I seeing as I am metered and I don't believe you are? I'm not asking because I took your attack personally, I'm asking more to ask for back up for your global statement

Weren't you the guy who wanted to keep an Octopus before doing his research to find out about their short life spans?


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Please try to keep on topic. 

I know "fins" have been ruffled, but this is an interesting topic for discussion & debate so if we can avoid the personal attacks and so forth, this thread can stay open and continue to provide new ideas about how to do what the OP asked.


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## Mferko

josephl said:


> Good point on the python - to clarify, a pump and a hose to water in the garden, python to drain to basement once garden is watered.
> 
> Weren't you the guy who wanted to keep an Octopus before doing his research to find out about their short life spans?


are we suggesting the octopus wont live a short life either way? it'd still make a great pet, and the aquarium doesnt die with it.
isnt that usually the way it goes, you see something you like, then you research it and how to take care of it?
better than getting it before doing the research imo.

tl;dr
frequent water changes (please try not to waste)
high quality feeding, ideally smaller amounts more often
proper water chemistry for osmoregulation and so all the materials for the enzymes to spit out appropriate products are there
keep the temperature on the warm side of suggested temperature range for that fish
all the above will help your fishies grow fast and be healthy

fyi 2 successive 50% changes removes the same amount of dissolved and suspended material as a single 75% change
3 successive 50% changes = a single 87.5% change
so by doing a single change of a higher volume, you can remove alot more of the "bad stuff" than doing successive smaller changes.


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## Rastapus

Mferko said:


> #1 yes it is overkill, its likely youd get the same result with 50-80% daily changes.
> LFS are metered, they're paying for their water, and i dont drive i walk and use transit, i ended my lease over a year ago because the car was always parked.
> im not trying to attack you personally, if it seems that way i do apologize, what im saying is that recommending everyone on here to do 150% daily changes for the sake of making their fish grow a bit faster is wasteful.
> the vast majority of residences in the lower mainland are NOT metered. thats likely going to change in the near future, and new residences are now required to install meters.
> and just to be clear, the fact that it is being paid for doesn't make it OK to be wasteful
> 
> 360 gallons a day and your saying first that you use it in the garden and then that you drain it to the basement so the python doesnt waste water. is your yard in your basement?
> 
> then you accuse me of BS'ing


Just for the record here, Joseph was not recommending to other members that they should change as much water as he does, just that this is his personal regimen. 
I highly doubt that many hobbyists would devote as much time to the water changes that Joseph does, I don't think the city has anything to worry about there. 
The fire on the gasoline is when you called another member irresponsible over too much maintenance. I doubt this comment would be taken lightly by anyone on this forum. As I said previously, a bit strong. Anybody would likely take that personally.


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## josephl

Rastapus said:


> Just for the record here, Joseph was not recommending to other members that they should change as much water as he does, just that this is his personal regimen.
> I highly doubt that many hobbyists would devote as much time to the water changes that Joseph does, I don't think the city has anything to worry about there.
> The fire on the gasoline is when you called another member irresponsible over too much maintenance. I doubt this comment would be taken lightly by anyone on this forum. As I said previously, a bit strong. Anybody would likely take that personally.


Thanks Grant. Having kept fresh water tropicals for 42 years, and then being accused of being irresponsible for wanting to give my fish the best possible care and then being told that others on the forum were footing my tax bill made me somehow think that the attack was personal


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## Mferko

josephl said:


> Thanks Grant. Having kept fresh water tropicals for 42 years, and then being accused of being irresponsible for wanting to give my fish the best possible care and then being told that others on the forum were footing my tax bill made me somehow think that the attack was personal


you are not irresponsible for wanting to give your fish the best possible care, we all do.
im talking about being environmentally responsible, i think that was also made pretty clear.


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## Scholz

correct feeding does make a differance.... Many small feedings through the day grows fry faster than one big feeding. Also live foods high in the proper nutirents are best! A varried live food diet will help as well. Brine shrimp are great for fry but a real hassel to deal with. I'm still searching for a live food to take their place. Until fairy shrimp eggs are avaible at the same cost and amount as brine shrimp I doubt this will happen. Mona Daphina are the next thing i'm going to try. As the newly hatched out daphnia are smaller than BBS....


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## rescuepenguin

Scholz said:


> correct feeding does make a differance.... Many small feedings through the day grows fry faster than one big feeding. Also live foods high in the proper nutirents are best! A varried live food diet will help as well. Brine shrimp are great for fry but a real hassel to deal with. I'm still searching for a live food to take their place. Until fairy shrimp eggs are avaible at the same cost and amount as brine shrimp I doubt this will happen. Mona Daphina are the next thing i'm going to try. As the newly hatched out daphnia are smaller than BBS....


I work with infusora until they are large enough for other foods. I recently lost some celestial pearl danios trying to switch them to banana worms too soon. We are try daphnia to give them in between infusora and banana worms.

Steve


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## AWW

people care for fish in different ways. From what i see here joseph has found a way to keep his discus happy and healthy, why would he not stay true to that way? Yes, it may be waist full, but in all honesty we are not water deprived here in BC. Yes, in other areas of the world they are, so why arnt we pumping all the water out of BC but what we need? Sure if we payed sums of money we would part with out water, but that's not so. Joseph is doing the same thing, preservation of his discus. We are not in a water shortage is what i am trying to say, now if Joseph was living in Africa or even California, i am sure he would understand that it is not fair to take water from society in this quantity. 

Mferko, as for the personal attacks, just because you are bent on a way of life dosnt mean you have to convince other people to follow you. I am glad you have your ethics figured out. If we all lived like this then we could solve a few worldly problems, but others are not with you on this belief. this doesn't mean Joseph is any less of a person than you. I would say if you guys have a personal argument keep it to the PM's or go out for coffee and discus life in terms of water.

Back to the OP - Fish grow to there potential in there natural habitat, replicate that and you will have success.


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## Scholz

I'm guessing that the loss was not because of the food switch but something else.... how long after the food switch until you noticed the die off?



rescuepenguin said:


> I work with infusora until they are large enough for other foods. I recently lost some celestial pearl danios trying to switch them to banana worms too soon. We are try daphnia to give them in between infusora and banana worms.
> 
> Steve


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## josephl

Mferko said:


> you are not irresponsible for wanting to give your fish the best possible care, we all do.
> im talking about being environmentally responsible, i think that was also made pretty clear.


Still waiting for back up for the 2 statements with regards:

1 Why the tax payers are paying more to subsidize my water use than yours seeing as I am metered

2 Are ALL LFS metered as you so clearly stated


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## April

mine is. i pay 400 a month on water with hst added. 
i think the land owner is taxed and charged for water consumption..and believe me the landlord passes it on. some buildings..like my last one it was divided evenly between the 5 units..except she gave me a bigger part..seeming all the others were doing were flushing their toilets. sometimes its built into the lease monthly payment..sometimes..on top. mine now is on top.and it increased and he was on my doorstep to collect. lol.


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## Mferko

josephl said:


> Still waiting for back up for the 2 statements with regards:
> 
> 1 Why the tax payers are paying more to subsidize my water use than yours seeing as I am metered
> 
> 2 Are ALL LFS metered as you so clearly stated


look up the metering laws yourself, http://vancouver.ca/bylaws/8093c.pdf *Commercial, industrial and institutional customers are billed based on consumption. There is also a flat rate meter charge on the bill. This is based on the size of the meter. The bill also contains a 'sewer' charge which is usually based on 85% of the water consumption. Metered properties are read and billed on a three month billing cycle (e.g. each meter is read and billed 4 times a year). Invoicing occurs immediately after meter reading..*
from city of vancouver website, the flat fees for residences are in the .pdf
its the middle of summer, there are limits on lawn sprinkler use for a reason, our reservoirs are filled in the winter and need to last the whole summer. the average daily water consuption per person for residents in BC is 440L (Taken from Household Guide to Water Efficiency - Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. 2000. ), your using 3-4x that daily on the aquarium alone.

Water conservation, Waterworks, Engineering Services, City of Vancouver

while i applaud your efforts to put some of the water in the garden, and keep your fish as healthy as possible, 1.5x the volume of your aquarium changed daily in the middle of the summer isnt necessary and if we all started doing that, the total amount of wasted water would be staggering.


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## neven

Considering that most of the year, water reservoirs are full in this city and the water flows down the rivers or pumped into buntzen to be used for power generation, that sort of water regime is fine. But when it hits late summer and water advisories are in place, it doesn't matter if you pay your water through meters or through household taxes, you need to be responsible with your water.

I think its a bit much for us with smaller tanks to claim the higher ground when most of our livestock and plants come from such places that need to consume large quantities of water to make their business work. But Besides that, from the hobbyist point of view, we aren't mass producing or mass selling, we are keeping a house hold aquarium no matter the size.

During the summer responsibility should be taken with water usage. For us with small tanks its easy to remain as things were, but for those with large tanks, they should be modifying their Water change regime to the least possible amount possible without HARMING the fish. It doesn't matter that you'll be just shy of the most ideal water conditions for your fish, if you are growing them, they'll just grow a tad bit slower for a few months. But to dump hundreds of gallons of water down the drain to get a bit more growth when the rest of the city has to clamp down on their usage is definitely irresponsible. Don't sugar coat it, be responsible and suck it up for a couple months, then go back to the way things were.

As for me, i had a spike in my nitrites, so i was water changing daily, 35%, i still used the water. I even watered the neighbours plants with it. I also keep toilet flushing minimal (yellow keep it mellow, brown flush it down) and keep . I use CFLs in all lights except ones at eye level (health reasons). I do my part to offset what i do waste. Times have changed since you have entered the hobby, responsibility beyond the fish needs to be taken into account aswell.


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## Mferko

neven said:


> Considering that most of the year, water reservoirs are full in this city and the water flows down the rivers or pumped into buntzen to be used for power generation, that sort of water regime is fine. But when it hits late summer and water advisories are in place, it doesn't matter if you pay your water through meters or through household taxes, you need to be responsible with your water.
> 
> I think its a bit much for us with smaller tanks to claim the higher ground when most of our livestock and plants come from such places that need to consume large quantities of water to make their business work. But Besides that, from the hobbyist point of view, we aren't mass producing or mass selling, we are keeping a house hold aquarium no matter the size.
> 
> * During the summer responsibility should be taken with water usage. For us with small tanks its easy to remain as things were, but for those with large tanks, they should be modifying their Water change regime to the least possible amount possible without HARMING the fish. It doesn't matter that you'll be just shy of the most ideal water conditions for your fish, if you are growing them, they'll just grow a tad bit slower for a few months. But to dump hundreds of gallons of water down the drain to get a bit more growth when the rest of the city has to clamp down on their usage is definitely irresponsible. Don't sugar coat it, be responsible and suck it up for a couple months, then go back to the way things were.*
> 
> As for me, i had a spike in my nitrites, so i was water changing daily, 35%, i still used the water. I even watered the neighbours plants with it. I also keep toilet flushing minimal (yellow keep it mellow, brown flush it down) and keep . I use CFLs in all lights except ones at eye level (health reasons). I do my part to offset what i do waste. Times have changed since you have entered the hobby, responsibility beyond the fish needs to be taken into account aswell.


thank you, there is hope for us yet.
i agree there is absolutely no shortage of water here in the winter months, but this is july, the fire bans would seem to be an indication that it has not rained much.


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## Scholz

It's official this thread has been *HYJACKED!!!*


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## April

i dont think joseph is doing that just to get his fish to grow faster....hes doing it according to his stocking levels..and to keep the fish healthy.hes doing it to be sure they wont runt out or get sick. he has invested alot into his fish..and he took them on..its his responsibility to give them proper care. he knows his fish..and he knows their stress level. discus need clean water period. 
that was what this whole thread started as..how to grow fish faster. most people only do every two weeks wc or less.and it was said breeders etc do more to get ultimate growth and health . the ones that dont..and you see skinny..sickly fish in lfs..and we all hear how bad the fish looked at said shop..perhaps its because those fish came from somewhere where the proper care wasnt given to get the fish growing and healthy and the lfs continued with more less than favourable care. 
not sure how it endedup being a whole discussion on how joseph does wcs. lol.


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## Rastapus

aprils aquarium said:


> i dont think joseph is doing that just to get his fish to grow faster....hes doing it according to his stocking levels..and to keep the fish healthy.hes doing it to be sure they wont runt out or get sick. he has invested alot into his fish..and he took them on..its his responsibility to give them proper care. he knows his fish..and he knows their stress level. discus need clean water period.
> that was what this whole thread started as..how to grow fish faster. most people only do every two weeks wc or less.and it was said breeders etc do more to get ultimate growth and health . the ones that dont..and you see skinny..sickly fish in lfs..and we all hear how bad the fish looked at said shop..perhaps its because those fish came from somewhere where the proper care wasnt given to get the fish growing and healthy and the lfs continued with more less than favourable care.
> not sure how it endedup being a whole discussion on how joseph does wcs. lol.


Hey April,
The topic changes pretty quickly when someone is being attacked personally over something as simple as a water change. After the years of mutated deformed fish coming into my doors on trade in basis, I still feel proud to say "good on you Joseph". This has gotten way out of control for sure with little signs of improvement. At least the initial message is in there for most members who can weed through this thread.


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## josephl

Thanks April and Grant,

I'm back on board now and sorry for hijacking the thread - I tend to be impulsive as many LFS owners and my friends will tell you but I also believe in taking care of what I choose to own/look after and so, back to the original question, I do believe that to properly care for all fish but more so the discus, zebra plecos and Altums that I choose to keep, oh, and one lonely zebra knife fish and to allow for maximum growth and color, as many water changes as you can find time to do and feeding the best food that you can, as often as you can(leading to a greater need for water changes) leads to maximum growth, color and health for my fish.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Since the first warning about hijacking the thread didn't seem to do much good, one last warning.

This is NOT a thread about one member's water change regimen vs another's.

It IS about finding ways to optimally grow your fish.

Please keep it on topic and we won't have to shut it down or delete all the bickering posts. Too much work and its such a nice day. So PLEASE, no more posts about Joseph's WC regimen. It's been discussed enough on this thread already.

Thanks,

The Mod team.


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## Smiladon

IME, the best growth for fish is accomplished by:
1. Good varied diet - protien based food helps a lot [not suitable for all fish]
2. Regular Water Changes

Lots of interesting information in this thread related to how higher temperature helps in fish growth etc. Its very fascinating.

I do know for a fact that the appetite for the fish is increased if the temperature is high...

--
Thx Anthony for trying to keep it clean 
Reading through this thread was not fun...


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## Sandy Landau

Just out of curiosity, why would you want your fish to grow faster?


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## Rastapus

Sandy Landau said:


> Just out of curiosity, why would you want your fish to grow faster?


Fast growth is normal and a sign of good health. It is great that hobbyists concern themselves about this and ways to optimize their aquarium conditions. As previously stated, inadequate water change can create stunting and poor health.


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## Mferko

i came across this a while ago while researching the best diet for my african cichlids
if you own africans, this study was done on yellow labs in specific, might wanna take a look.
http://www.trjfas.org/pdf/issue_10_01/0104.pdf
"Abstract
An experiment was designed to determine the optimum dietary protein level of a freshwater ornamental fish, Blue streak
hap (Labidochromis caeruleus). Four isocaloric fish meal based diets ranging from 30% to 45% in protein were fed to
triplicate groups of Blue streak hap for 8 weeks. Fish (initial weight, 0.85 g) were reared in twelve 50 L aquarium with
biological filter and controlled temperature (27.5°C), in stocking density of ten fish/aquarium. Results showed that dietary
protein level significantly influenced final weight, weight gain and specific growth rate of fish. Maximum growth of fish was
observed in the 40% protein diet, although this was not significantly different from the 35% and 45% protein diets (P>0.05).
Specific growth rate and feed efficiency increased from 30% to 40% protein, and thereafter decreased for diet 45% protein.
There were statistically significantly differences in feed intake among treatments (P<0.05). Fish fed with the highest protein
diet had lower percentage daily feed consumption values than those of fish fed with the lowest protein diet. Under the
experimental conditions applied, juvenile blue streak hap, L. Caeruleus, appear to require more than 35% dietary protein for
optimized growth."


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## neven

Rastapus said:


> Fast growth is normal and a sign of good health. It is great that hobbyists concern themselves about this and ways to optimize their aquarium conditions. As previously stated, inadequate water change can create stunting and poor health.


in most cases, the calculator for stocking levels will indicate the amount of water changes you need to do in order to keep your aquarium optimal. Plus it lets you know how far you can go with stocking levels, which seems to be something even experienced hobbyists seem to forget about. overstocking a tank doesn't just mean you need to water change more, you increase aggression levels as well and stress many fish out, and it'll contribute to lesser growth and in planted tanks, it can lead to algae issues.


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## Edarion

the fish still aren't growing


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## EDGE

If they aren't growing, chances are, they have gone past the time allotted for their growth. Some fish stop growing after 1 year from day of birth. When you buy local bred fish, ask them how old they are as good practice so you know if the fish are/will be stunted or not.


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## gklaw

Guys, can we take this off-line. Thanks.

MUST HAVE BEEN READING SOEM EARLIER HEATED EXCHANGE.


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## Edarion

Why are you wanting to take this offline. This thread already wasn't active anymore. Though, the references in there were superb


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