# Why does my planted tank look so bad?



## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

Hello all. I recently decided to try a planted tank, but I haven't been having much luck. Actually, I tried planting three tanks, but only the small betta tank is doing very well. They all have the same substrate (I forget the name, but I was assured it was a good one), the same fertilizer (Seachem Flourish Tabs), the same carbon source (Flourish Excel), but different types of light. The one that has the 'best' light source is actually doing the worst. Lots of black spots on the leaves, and most things seem to eventually die (I think in some cases the catfish are harming the plants, as they seem to get chewed off at the base). There is also lots of green and black on the rocks. Am I missing something here? In comparison, the betta tank plants are doing quite well. The third tank is a brackish tank for the F8 puffer. There have been lots of deaths there too, but maybe that's due to the brackish conditions. I have had some hair algae too, but I have managed to physically remove that.

Any suggestions?


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## ninez (Apr 21, 2010)

I am no plant expert but I think you can't add salt in planted tanks (that's how my plants died).


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

I haven't added any salt to the tank I was describing (the community tank). I _also _have a brackish tank, and I have had some success with water sprite in that tank (although lots of it has died too). That is supposed to be a brackish plant.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The reason your lowest light tank is doing the best is that your lighting is exceeding the nutrients available to the plants. So the lower light tank has healthier plants. You haven't disclosed all the following details for each tank, which would help us make suggestions.

Water volume
Lighting type and wattage
Lighting period
Water change regime
Tank temp
ph/GH/KH (although this is less important)
livestock
substrate (your photos show gravel, and not the plant substrate you describe, so I assume it's under the gravel)
Dosing - how much excel and how often

The BBA (black brush algae is telling us your carbon source is not keeping up to your light. The pinholes may be insufficient potassium. I assume you are not dosing macros, have an excessive long photoperiod and the lights are too intense for what you are trying to use to grow plants.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

the flourish tabs leave out two essential macro nutrients, Nitrogen and Phosphates. Since you are still somewhat new to planted tanks it would be best to read the Estimated Index sticky in this forum. You may just get away with dosing kno3 since your root tabs will suppliment the K if its short, and phosphates on smaller tanks are often handled by fish food (you can pick up KH2PO4 just in case).

Local hydroponic stores and online fert shops can provide these fertilizers at a mere fraction of the cost compared to seachem's nitrogen/phosphate/potassium products.


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks 2wheels!
Okay here's some more info on the 'problem' tank. It is a 10 gallon tank.

This is the lighting:
GroBeam 500 LED Light Strip (1-12W Natural Daylight)
I do not have the sunrise/sunset timer. It is on for about 12hrs/day.

I replace 2 gallons every week, plus there is a fair bit of evaporation to this tank. Some weeks I top up in between water changes. I don't know if it makes a difference, but I have 2 filter systems running in the tank. There is quite a bit of water movement, esp on one side of the tank.

I just measured, and the pH=7.6, GH=60, and KH=40. Temp =26C.

The tank has 7 fish (2 algae eaters and 3 catfish) and 2 aquatic frogs, and a nerite snail.

The substrate is under the gravel. I can get a picture of it, if it helps.

On Sundays (water change day) I add 2.5 mL of Excel, and on Wed and Fridays I add about 1mL of Excel.

I don't understand what dosing macros means.

Do you mean that I should not be using this light on this tank? That was what I got it for, so I could have a planted tank!


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

neven said:


> the flourish tabs leave out two essential macro nutrients, Nitrogen and Phosphates. Since you are still somewhat new to planted tanks it would be best to read the Estimated Index sticky in this forum. You may just get away with dosing kno3 since your root tabs will suppliment the K if its short, and phosphates on smaller tanks are often handled by fish food (you can pick up KH2PO4 just in case).
> 
> Local hydroponic stores and online fert shops can provide these fertilizers at a mere fraction of the cost compared to seachem's nitrogen/phosphate/potassium products.


Not enough phosphates?? I always thought I had too much, and hence the algae growth. Or is that only the case in an unplanted tank?

I got the Seachem products during a fairly good sale, but thanks for the tip next time!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Don't be discouraged. I just meant that you have more light than your current regime.

I am going to make a few assumptions and let me know if I am making the wrong ones, and I'm sure others will jump in with more help too.

1. Reduce your photoperiod a bit to get more control. Say 8 hours. Break up the period if you have to so that the lights are on when you want to view (ie, have a light siesta when you are not at home).
2. Dose Excel every day according to the directions.
3. Up your water changes to 50% every week.
4. I should have asked what your nitrates measure at, but it looks like you have a decent bioload with the frogs and algae eaters (otos or plecos, or SAE's?)

By macros, we mean the larger scale components of the nutrients, NPK, nitrogen, phosporus and potassium. Are you dosing a GH booster like the DIY ones or Equilibrium? That would help also.

Oh, and is your plant substrate orange/pinkish? If so, it'd be Flourite. If it's rounded brown clay lumps, then it's Florabase and if it's black, it's probably Eco-complete.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

jassz said:


> Not enough phosphates?? I always thought I had too much, and hence the algae growth. Or is that only the case in an unplanted tank?
> 
> I got the Seachem products during a fairly good sale, but thanks for the tip next time!


When much wasn't understood in the hobby, cutting back on fertilizers and feedings were the common "fix" to problems. A few folks like tom barr and his fishy friends who experiment with him figured out that as long as your carbon source (excel or co2) or nutrients do not limit plant growth, algae has a difficult time getting a foot hold. So by making these nutrients constantly available, plants thrived and out competed the algae for light.

phosphorus, nitrogen, and potassium are the elements we need to make sure are always there. the trace elements are often covered by substrates, tabs, or even compounds like flourish (csm+b, etc). lack of macros = no growth/algae growth, lack of micros = deformities.

there's always a point of too much, but by staying on regimes and doing 50% changes you wont let things spiral out of control. Instead you'll reset it back to a very safe level each week

Phosphates only get out of control when you over feed and play with the wrong types of water parameter adjusters. When you see green spot algae on fast/medium growing plants and you know you don't have too much light, often means you actually need more phosphorus. Which we dose in the form of Potassium Phosphate.


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Don't be discouraged. I just meant that you have more light than your current regime.
> 
> I am going to make a few assumptions and let me know if I am making the wrong ones, and I'm sure others will jump in with more help too.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is Flourite.

By GH booster, do you mean a buffer? I use a Marine buffer in my salt water tank, and my brackish tank, but I have never used anything in my FW tanks. Equilibrium is the brand name you recommend?

Oh, and my algae eaters are otos. And the snail.

My plan is to get rid of or cut back the sick looking plants, and start again with something healthy. Then I guess I should be supplementing with a GH booster, Potassium phosphate and (possibly) nitrogen, and increase teh water changes to 50% weekly. Does that sound like a good course of action? Oh, and if I know I will be late with a water change for some reason (say on vacation) would it be best not to add any of these nutrients leading up to that? I'd rather have healthy fish than healthy plants. 

This has been very helpful, thank you all. I did read the post mentioned by the way, thanks for pointing it out.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

gH booster is general hardness booster. which is mainly consist of Calcium and Magnesium. In a non high tech tank, surface agitation / surface movement is very important. This helps with the gas exchange because plants *do* need both CO2 and O2 during daytime to grow.

Flourish tabs does contain NPK + trace. If you want to go with root tabs, use jobes stick houseplant sticks with flourish tabs. They will give the plants the nutrients they need.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishTabs.html


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

EDGE said:


> gH booster is general hardness booster. which is mainly consist of Calcium and Magnesium. In a non high tech tank, surface agitation / surface movement is very important. This helps with the gas exchange because plants *do* need both CO2 and O2 during daytime to grow.
> 
> Flourish tabs does contain NPK + trace. If you want to go with root tabs, use jobes stick houseplant sticks with flourish tabs. They will give the plants the nutrients they need.
> 
> Seachem. Flourish Tabs


I have put some crushed coral in the tank... would it help to add more? For the Ca and Mg?

I read teh link you sent, and I think I'm not putting enough of the tablets in the tank. I thought I read the package to say one tab for every 10 inches, but that link said one tab for every 4 inches. Either they changed it, or I read it wrong. Do you think if I added more tablets, that would be enough? Does it contain enough of the K and NO2?


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

crushed coral helps when there is co2 in the tank because the co2 dissolves into carbonic acid and its able to break down the coral. But without it, you will see negligible gains.

There are GH boosters like equillibrium, grumpy's GH booster, tom barr's GH booster which are all roughly the same. The first of the three is easy to find in most shops. KH is important to get above 3 in a co2 set up, in a non co2 set up 2 degrees is fine. WHen you do a hardness test it measures ppm so you'll need to convert to degrees by dividing by 17.9. I use baking soda to get my KH higher.

personally i use a 3.5 gallon bucket every water change filled to the same level. 1 tbsp of equillibrium and 1/4 tsp of baking soda to every bucket full. If i remember correctly it gives me a gh of 5.8 and a kh fo 3.6. 

LFS tend to be around 5 GH, which is why i aimed to be in that ball park. being exact with ph, kh and gh isn't really needed, just as long as you get in the vicinity and keep it stable

and flourish tabs do not contain NP, just K + trace. Read their site and they'll state they left them out for algae reasons


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

If you look up posts that I started, I had two similar threads to yours. I pulled this picture out that many thought may be helpful. I am no plant expert so I can't offer you much help. My issue was that the alkalinity was too high.

Goodluck:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/664/deficiency.jpg


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## corad96 (Nov 24, 2010)

it could just be the substrate, and/or maybe the pots on the potted plants, and/or maybe your tank just needs to be cleaned, but the first two choices are your best bet.

Aquarium Forum - Fish Forum - BCAQUARIA - View Profile: corad96


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

neven said:


> and flourish tabs do not contain NP, just K + trace. Read their site and they'll state they left them out for algae reasons


ici

The Seachem site if full of contradictory information. The tabs do in fact contain N and P, stated explicitly in the guaranteed analysis in the link EDGE gave. It's just not in macro amounts:

Total Nitrogen 0.28%
Available Phosphate 0.17%
Soluble Potash 0.16%
Calcium 14.9%
Magnesium 0.06%
Sulfur 12.2%
Boron 0.029%
Chlorine 0.55%
Cobalt 0.001%
Copper 0.001%
Iron 2.2%
Manganese 0.23%
Molybdenum 0.0009%
Sodium 0.14%
Zinc 0.0024%

In a low light system, it's probably enough, combined with fish wastes and food, but in a higher system being dosed with Excel or injected with CO2, it's inadequate.


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

I'm no plant expert neither, but I gather enough information on my own to have a better understanding of getting a good idea of your requirements are for a planted tank.

I use this site for an overview and summary of information to grasp the concepts behind a planted tank. There are a lot of information out there, but what works in your tank, may not work for others. I'm sure you can disseminate what you could do to remedy your lack of plant growth.

Freshwater Aquarium Plant Care; Substrate, Ferts, CO2, and Lighting.

Happy readings and good luck.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

jassz said:


> I have put some crushed coral in the tank... would it help to add more? For the Ca and Mg?
> 
> I read teh link you sent, and I think I'm not putting enough of the tablets in the tank. I thought I read the package to say one tab for every 10 inches, but that link said one tab for every 4 inches. Either they changed it, or I read it wrong. Do you think if I added more tablets, that would be enough? Does it contain enough of the K and NO2?


To cut cost, I would go with a mixed of jobes stick houseplant spike 13-4-5, break in 1/2, and flourish tab. Flourish tabs or aquarium fertilizer tabs, in general, can get expensive really fast if used alone.

Alternatively, you can place the tabs around heavy root feeding plants and avoid the area with lots of stem plants or area you want to do a lot of moving around.

As for the no N or P in flourish tabs. The wording is just a bit misleading. They said "They contain no phosphate or nitrate *that would *promote algae proliferation." From what I interpret means the amount or type of N and P is so minute, you will not get an algae outbreak. If they said no N or P period, then they would have stopped short of the line "They contain no phosphate or nitrate."

Algae arise mainly from ammonium/ammonia form of Nitrogen, which you will rarely see leech out from the tabs when they are in the substrate anyways.

ADD: aquarium pharm root tabs is K +Fe, at least the older ones I have. Not sure about the new ones.


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

So here's where I'm at. Let me know if you think I'm on the right track, or still need to add/do something.

I put a timer on the light, so it is now only on for 8hr/day.

I cleaned the tank really well, and even removed some of the rocks and boiled them and put them back. I removed or trimmed back a lot of the plants, and planted new ones (this was a week ago).

I added four more of the Flourish tabs to the tank (there were two there already).

I started adding Equilibrium to the tank when I change water. I find this one a bit hard to dose, as you need such a small amount. I used a bit less than a 1/4 teaspoon for my 10 gallon tank.

I am also adding Flourish phosphorus. Again, I find it hard to dose such a small tank. I think it should provide both phosphate and potassium (it's derived from potassium phosphate).

I'm not sure how to dose nitrites, but I added a bit of Stability today, since I thought it might have some (it's supposed to recreate a cycle, right?). 

I started this last weekend, and about mid week the large rock in the tank did turn rather green. Too much phosphate? The plants... it's hard to tell yet. Nothing's died, but many are new plants. I did a 50% water change today.

Also, in my other tank, the one that I thought was doing okay... I noticed that the leaves on one of the plants seems to be disintigrating from the tips inward. Another of the plants is all covered in black algae. I added some phosphate to that tank too, but it's only a three gallon tank so really hard to dose. It seemed a little bubbly at that top, and I wondered if I had added too much. I am thinking I might get a larger pail to mix all the water in for all my tanks, and then scoop from there (I'm currently mixing one gallon at a time because I can't lift much heavier than that).

Should I just see how it goes with this regime?


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

You are on the right track. You have a lot of light for the tank that you still have to deal with. 12 watt LED over 10 gallon is in the very high light category even if the light is cut back to 8 hours. Without adding CO2, you need to find some very fast growing plants (hygrophila polysperma, hygrophila difformis, rotala rotundifolia, etc) or floating plants to help shade the tank a bit.

Do you have a lot of inhabitant in the tank? how often do you feed? 


Personally, I like to feed the fish prior to lights out and dose after lights out (except during water change schedule).

If there is any ammonium leeching caused by the feeding/dosing, I don't have to worry as much about the algae growth caused by ammonium since the filter has time to convert them to nitrate which is not as user friendly as ammonium and nitrite.


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

I have 7 fish and 2 frogs in the tank. I do feed just before lights out, and only once a day. I dose earlier though, but I can change that to after lights out.

Thanks for the tips on the plants. I find though that in the stores most plants are not labeled, and the staff rarely know what they have. And to go looking for a _specific _plant is really difficult. I'll take another picture of my new plants and maybe you will know if they are fast growing or not.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

If you know the plants come from Oriental Aquairum nursery, you might be able to borrow the LFS OA plant catalog. Most of the photos in the catalog is in the emersed form which is what the plants come in as anyways. 

Rogers aquatics, Aquaflora nursery and Tropica plants are your best bet for not having to ID the plants.

You do have a decent bio load for a 10 gallon tank, which can result in a bit of algae under very high light.


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