# Update and thanks - Very frustrated! Ich timing question



## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Update - July 1st:

Well, everything has been resolved, and the tank has been back to normal for a while now.
In the end I did 3 treatments with the API Ich cure (label recommended 2, 48hrs apart, but I wasn't 100% convinced after 2 so I did a 3rd round), with a raised temperature throughout. 

My last remaining ember tetra, who looked very sick at the time, has regained all his colours and looks just great. Everyone else in the tank, including the 4 amano shrimp, are looking great. The plants suffered, though - but nothing that can't be solved with some careful trimming.

Big thanks to everyone who pitched in with advice and support - much appreciated.
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Hi all,

So I have a cycled tank with ember tetras and gold barbs. All fishies seemed to be doing very well.
Last Sunday, I added an ancistrus that I bought at a LFS. Kept an eye on the tank and everything seemed fine. 

Today (Friday), all my ember tetras are dead or nearly dead.
Gold barbs seem fine for now.

It's clear now that the tetras had/have ich. This is crazy because I look at my fish a lot and I'm really surprised I didn't notice anything earlier - it all seems to have happened in the span of 24 hours or so. I remember seeing white spots on the ancistrus a few days ago but didn't think much of it because it already has (normal) white spots. Yes, I'm fairly new to this.

I'm pretty frustrated. I really liked those tetras - had them since the very beginning and they always seemed bright and healthy. I called the LFS for advice and they told me my tetras must have already been sick when I added the ancistrus - they said my fish were stressed, and that's why they got sick. I find that hard to believe. For one thing, the ancistrus is super chill and doesn't bother anyone, so it's not like it's causing stress. For another, there has been no change in my water parameters since I introduced him.

So I guess my question is: how likely is it, given the timing, that the fish I bought was sick and started this whole thing?

I'm not impressed.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Very likely it was the new addition despite what the LFS suggested.

Look up increasing temperature gradually and adding salt on this forum (I don't remember specifics), this is a natural way to heal fish and speed up the ich cycle without medicating the whole tank with chemicals.

The tetras could have been stressed which may have resulted in more immediate issues, I won't state that isn't the case, but it was likely introduced by the ancistrus.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for the answer, effox.
I did look up treatments and started raising the temperature and adding salt. Fingers crossed.

The death toll is now 4/5. I am still completely baffled by how quickly this happened. Yesterday they all looked fine! I always look at every fish when I feed them to make sure they all get something...


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## DBM (May 12, 2010)

Personally I don't think it's the new addition. The life cycle of ich in a tropical aquarium is something like a week, and otherwise healthy fish can live quite awhile with it and not show symptoms.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for your input, DBM! 
I guess in the end it doesn't matter whether the new fish from the LFS brought the illness or not, the end result is the same.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

It depends on the temperature. It can be 3 days easy in higher temperature water, to 5 days in average.

I've had ich twice in two separate tanks, and it only appeared less than a week after I introduced new fish to the tanks. Tetras are hardy fish, but I've never experienced ich appearing out of no where despite what I've heard others write about the protozoans being in tap water to begin with, which I doubt.

Glad you're treating your tank accordingly. The only issue with not knowing how it occurred is that it can happen again without the knowledge as to why.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Sorry to hear your lost. Truly am as I still remember you coming on here starting your new tanks and you loved those tetras.
It is hard to say because some people believe ick is always present in the aquarium and can be triggered by stress anytime. I do not believe that to be the case but that is just my own opinion.
It seems to have happened very fast, are you sure they died of ick?


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

That's a good point about finding out why this happened so it doesn't happen again, effox. 

Though right now I must say I'm not too keen on going back to that particular LFS, both because of my concerns the ich may have come from their fish, and because I wasn't too impressed with their reaction when I told them about the situation.

This is too bad, because I really like the store and it's conveniently located for me. We'll see how things develop. I don't tend to hold a grudge, but I'm really sad I lost my tetras - they are the first little guys I got when I gave fish-keeping another shot, and they were awesome.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

DBM said:


> Personally I don't think it's the new addition. The life cycle of ich in a tropical aquarium is something like a week, and otherwise healthy fish can live quite awhile with it and not show symptoms.


I disagree. According to this writeup from the University of Florida the lifecycle of ich is about 48 hours in a tropical tank. There's been enough time for a few generations already. Once the disease gets a foothold it can spread very quickly; if you don't catch it in the first few days (tricky if you haven't seen it before) it can kill small fish pretty rapidly.

You very rarely get ich infestations in a tank with no new (added within the last two weeks) stock. The LFS, on the other hand, is a perfect place for the transfer of parasites (particularly if they're not on the ball with their QT practices... which is true of most of them).

edit: If you don't want this kind of thing to happen again; a QT tank is the way to go. It can be as simple as having a spare heater and sponge/box filter (which are good things to have at any rate) with some sort of plastic bin/bucket (in the past I've used my 5 gallon water change bucket... although these days I have a spare 20 gallon. Clear sides are better). A four week QT is what's typically recommended. Adding an unquarantined fish to an established tank can be risky (I've QT'd all my fish since I picked up an iridiovirus from a petsmart gourami).


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks Fish rookie - kind of you to remember my humble beginnings (my two small tanks are still rather humble, I guess). 
Based on what I've read, I'm pretty sure it's ick as my last remaining tetra is covered in white spots and the ancistrus does seem to have a few also (though much fewer). Gold barbs all seem perfectly fine - no white spots.

But yes - happened very fast. Not sure how they could have gone from looking fine yesterday to dying today. I must have missed some signs.

I hope my shrimp are going to be ok...


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for the article, Rockman. Appreciate the additional info.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

UnderseaGal said:


> Thanks Fish rookie - kind of you to remember my humble beginnings (my two small tanks are still rather humble, I guess).
> Based on what I've read, I'm pretty sure it's ick as my last remaining tetra is covered in white spots and the ancistrus does seem to have a few also (though much fewer). Gold barbs all seem perfectly fine - no white spots.
> 
> But yes - happened very fast. Not sure how they could have gone from looking fine yesterday to dying today. I must have missed some signs.


It can do that. The first generation is pretty easy to miss (just a few small dots). Each dot can multiply itself by a few hundred in a generation; so it can get bad pretty quickly after it's established.



UnderseaGal said:


> I hope my shrimp are going to be ok...


They'll be fine. Shrimp don't get the same parasites as fish. Actually... now that I think of it you'll definitely want to avoid the commercial meds if you've got shrimp (most ich meds would probably kill them... shrimp are sensitive to a lot of meds). Heat treatment (assuming you get above 32 degrees... otherwise it just makes it worse) and salt should do the trick.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Rockman said:


> I disagree. According to this writeup from the University of Florida the lifecycle of ich is about 48 hours in a tropical tank. There's been enough time for a few generations already. Once the disease gets a foothold it can spread very quickly; if you don't catch it in the first few days (tricky if you haven't seen it before) it can kill small fish pretty rapidly.
> 
> You very rarely get ich infestations in a tank with no new (added within the last two weeks) stock. The LFS, on the other hand, is a perfect place for the transfer of parasites (particularly if they're not on the ball with their QT practices... which is true of most of them).
> 
> edit: If you don't want this kind of thing to happen again; a QT tank is the way to go. It can be as simple as having a spare heater and sponge/box filter (which are good things to have at any rate) with some sort of plastic bin/bucket (in the past I've used my 5 gallon water change bucket... although these days I have a spare 20 gallon. Clear sides are better). A four week QT is what's typically recommended. Adding an unquarantined fish to an established tank can be risky (I've QT'd all my fish since I picked up an iridiovirus from a petsmart gourami).


This is more inline with my personal experiences. Not what I've read others claim, just from what I've seen in two of my own tanks.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I was not doubting what you said but just think that killing your fish in 24 hours sounds very quick.
Actually if they say all fish will carry ick then they certainly cannot say the pleco you got are 100% ick free, right? 
If they say all fish contain ick then they must agree that the pleco may carry ick as well. If they agree that the pleco may carry ick then they certainly cannot rule out the possibility that your fish may have gotten ick from the pleco. How can they then say with certainty that your fish died because your fish already had ick and the pleco merely triggered it? I just cannot see the logic here.
It is a pain to cure ick if you have plants, gravels and all those things. The medicine can turn the silicon blue and it is just so hard to be sure they are completely eradicated.
Quarantine is definitely a good practice in the future. 
I know you are mad at the store and I don't blame you. It really does not matter which LFS you got your fish from though in my humble opinion as you always have a chance to catch it. LFS have thousands of fish at one time, a lot of them have just finished a very long journey in some little bags. Naturally some would be stressed and are sick. There is a big turn over in their tanks as batches of fish come and go so chances are several sick fish could have stayed in the same tank in a period of time. I do not think most LFS would disinfect the tanks once fish in the tanks are sold out. With a central system and with gravels, ornaments, plants... in their tanks it is almost impossible to expect their tanks to be ick free, regardless of which LFS you visit.
These days I do not get ick because my discus temp is too high for them. But I remember I had that before I treated with malachite green. I think I bleached the gravel and the filter or something like that but I cannot be sure as it was a long time ago. Is salt + high temp effective in eradicating all ick in your tank I am not sure.



UnderseaGal said:


> Thanks Fish rookie - kind of you to remember my humble beginnings (my two small tanks are still rather humble, I guess).
> Based on what I've read, I'm pretty sure it's ick as my last remaining tetra is covered in white spots and the ancistrus does seem to have a few also (though much fewer). Gold barbs all seem perfectly fine - no white spots.
> 
> But yes - happened very fast. Not sure how they could have gone from looking fine yesterday to dying today. I must have missed some signs.
> ...


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

At the time I think I half dosed one of my tanks with malachite blue(?), had one pictus so I took it easy on him\her and had no invertibrates.

Never had to try the salt\temp cycling as I learned my lesson the 2nd time around. Rather buy from sponsors on here that are accountable, or members that I can establish relationships with.


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## mrbob (Aug 9, 2012)

I had a outbreak of ick in my shrimp/tetra tank as well shrimp were fine all tetras died so fast except for one lucky guy (still kicking lol) I just used that quick cure drops and saved the one tetra and a Cory and all shrimp are fine actually multiplying like mad! I agree thou salt and heat prob better! maybe I was lucky quick cure didnt kill shrimp? but worked!! and fast!!


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Rockman - thank you for confirming that the process can go fast. Unfortunately I used API's ich cure as soon as I realized what was going on (along with increasing the heat and some salt, but I stopped the salt now). Shrimp look ok now but I'm worried.
effox - thanks for sharing your experience. It's what makes this forum so great! Definitely planning to purchase from sponsors. I always look for what I want at Canadian Aquatics, but often they don't stock what I'm interested in (my options are limited since my tanks are so small). But thanks for reminding me of this -
Fish rookie - thanks for putting things in perspective re: the LFS. As I read more about ich I realize you're right and it's quite common. That said, I still think they could have reacted better when I told them - immediately denying any responsibility was kind of lame, especially when the timing was so suspicious.
mrbob - I'm happy to hear your shrimp survived - gives me hope for mine, maybe I'll be lucky too.  I also have one lucky tetra remaining, but he really doesn't look well and hasn't improved since I put the meds in, so I'm not too hopeful for that guy.


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## swd (Mar 18, 2014)

mardel quick cure,follow instructions ,raise temp water change before 2nd treatment


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

You can try to put them in a small bucket with a heater and airstone to quarantine for a bit first next time if you do not have the space for another tank. Putting a UV sterilizer in the tank can help as well--although not 100% sure because it cannot kill whatever is not free floating (e.g. in the gravel). 

About Canadian Aquatic I think Pat(mykiss) has some endler guppies which I think could look lovely in your tank. They will likely breed for you which should be something exciting for you to experience. Pat's place is small but I have never had any bad experience from him, and I have not seen any dead fish in his tanks although I go bug him quite often. 

IPU does a lot of promotion weekly, they are a good store to buy from. They sometimes stock something a bit uncommon and unique that are not found in other store. In their Richmond store, their fish room manager, Angelo, is very knowledgeable and helpful.

King Ed also offers very good prices and their stock are very healthy.

Please do not judge a store based on one experience.  There will be good and bad experience as we will be dealing with different staff, different shipment of fish and so on everytime we go there. It is really hard to expect a LFS to be ick free. 

Good luck, and sorry for your lost once again.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

UnderseaGal said:


> Rockman - thank you for confirming that the process can go fast. Unfortunately I used API's ich cure as soon as I realized what was going on (along with increasing the heat and some salt, but I stopped the salt now). Shrimp look ok now but I'm worried.


I looked up API ich cure. It uses malachite green and nitrofurazone; which apparently aren't as bad for shrimp I thought they'd be. The box has a warning on it for scaleless fish and marine inverts; but the internet opinion seems to think freshwater shrimp will be okay. The medications you really want to avoid are the ones with metals (copper, chromium, etc) in them.



UnderseaGal said:


> I also have one lucky tetra remaining, but he really doesn't look well and hasn't improved since I put the meds in, so I'm not too hopeful for that guy.


You can't kill the parasites that are already embedded; so it's a matter of waiting out the clock until they try to reproduce. High temps will speed that process along (what's your tank temp at the moment?).



Fish rookie said:


> I know you are mad at the store and I don't blame you. It really does not matter which LFS you got your fish from though in my humble opinion as you always have a chance to catch it. LFS have thousands of fish at one time, a lot of them have just finished a very long journey in some little bags. Naturally some would be stressed and are sick. There is a big turn over in their tanks as batches of fish come and go so chances are several sick fish could have stayed in the same tank in a period of time. I do not think most LFS would disinfect the tanks once fish in the tanks are sold out. With a central system and with gravels, ornaments, plants... in their tanks it is almost impossible to expect their tanks to be ick free, regardless of which LFS you visit.


You have a point. However, not all LFS's are equal in that regard. Good stock, husbandry and isolation practices make a lot of difference as to the risk. The really good LFS's will have practices in place to minimize the spread of disease (net dips, etc). In my area there are a few different stores: one really good LFS, two okay ones, two suspect ones and one plague pit. The differences are pretty obvious once you figure out what to look for; but it can be tricky for newbies. The idea is to find the store with the best maintained tanks and healthiest looking fish


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Rockman, quick reply, more later: My tank temp is currently 87.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

87 is probably enough to do it on it's own (although there are some that can apparently survive to 90). Anyway at that temp the lifecycle should be fairly short; so you should see a reduction in spots shortly. Remember that it's important to continue treating for several days minimum after all the spots disappear though (to make sure you've got all the swimmers).

I'm thinking I may have wafted you in the direction of the skeptical aquarist site before (I do it a lot). His ich article is very good though. He goes over everything in lots of detail.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

swd- thanks for the tip.
Fish rookie - thanks for the low-down on our sponsors! Very helpful.
Rockman - yes, I did go to the skeptical aquarist thanks to your suggestion, and his article is indeed very thorough and excellent. I wish my LFS would read it! haha

So after my initial treatment (the box says to do two treatments, 48h apart, so the second treatment should be this evening) the remaining tetra seemed to be doing better, had regained some color and had no more white spots, but this morning he is covered in white spots again. Is there usually a relapse like this over the course of treatment? I'm wondering if I should put the second dose in right away instead of waiting until tonight?

My water temp is still 87-88. 

Thanks everyone for your comments and your support - it's been very helpful and I really appreciate it.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Update:
I decided to treat again right away.
I figured that if I lose my last tetra then it will be very difficult for me to tell whether ich is still present or not, so I went ahead.

Blerg.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

I'm not super familiar with ich outbreaks; but it takes a bit after the parasite is embedded before they can be seen. Probably the new spots are parasites that were embedded just before the treatment started.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Rockman -thanks, that makes sense.
Now I wait and see... And cross my fingers!


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