# Fish TB or Internal Parasites



## Emily (May 4, 2010)

About 4-5 weeks ago I lucked out and found a female endlers guppy at the LFS. I took her home and stuck her into a 5g planted tank on her own with some shrimp. 3 weeks later I had 6 little endler fry swimming around  However, while the fry have seemed super healthy, ever since having her babies the adult female began wasting away. A week and a half ago I noticed her spine seemed bent, her back half was angled in an odd way downwards. I felt really guilty because I thought it may have been from me putting her in one of those floating fry pen things to keep her from eating her babies (which I couldn't catch for the life of me, otherwise I would have put them in it instead). 

She passed away yesterday, and after doing some googling I think she may have been suffering from tuberculosis or an internal gut parasite. Her symptoms included drastic weight loss (despite a healthy appetite), a sunken belly, and bending of the spine. 

I am now concerned about the fry. They all seem chubby and healthy but since I didn't remove the female from the tank until she got very visibly sick (again, I thought it was from me keeping her in that little pen ) I am wondering if I should be taking steps to treat the tank. Since the babies are still quite little though, I don't want to risk killing them off with meds. 

Some advice would be much appreciated


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

Check your water parameters, especially PH, GH and KH. Guppies need quite hard water, and lack of minerals/too soft water can cause this. The lower mainland has REALLY soft water. Seachem Equilibrium really helps this problem.

We went through this same issue with our guppies until we were able to stabilize the water parameters at a point they liked.


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## Emily (May 4, 2010)

I don't have GH and KH test kit, but my pH sits around 7-7.1. I don't add salt but come to think of it, the place I bought the female from did add salt to their water so maybe I will start to add a little. Thanks!


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

Elle said:


> Check your water parameters, especially PH, GH and KH. Guppies need quite hard water, and lack of minerals/too soft water can cause this. The lower mainland has REALLY soft water. Seachem Equilibrium really helps this problem.
> 
> We went through this same issue with our guppies until we were able to stabilize the water parameters at a point they liked.


Agreed. they do need a semi brackish water. i had the best results with equilibrium and salt. ph 7.2. you must have a minimum 5 dgh. i added 1 tbsp of kosher salt per 5g. and don't forget salt does not evaporate so no salt with top ups only they amount of water you change. Hope that helps


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

Emily said:


> I don't have GH and KH test kit, but my pH sits around 7-7.1. I don't add salt but come to think of it, the place I bought the female from did add salt to their water so maybe I will start to add a little. Thanks!


Also get a GH tester


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

I guess I now know why a couple of hundred dollars of my guppies croaked. I'd take my water to Petsmart for testing to confirm my results but they never suggested that I add salt.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

You should think about getting a test kit Paul if you have invested that much in fish. Guppies are pretty hardy fish though in my limited experience. As long as you are not too far off they should be able to adjust. You do need to acclimatize them when you took them home, because most likely your water and the water from your LFS are different. Once they are used to your water they should be fine. If you have plants dont add salt, just replenish, or equilibrium, and alkaline buff will do.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

Fancies aren't as tough as regular guppies. I'd get a GH/KH test kit from J&L or your LFS and test that before trying salt. The lower mainland has super soft water and it's really hard on guppies.


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

Fish rookie said:


> You should think about getting a test kit Paul if you have invested that much in fish. Guppies are pretty hardy fish though in my limited experience. As long as you are too far off they should be able to adjust. You do need to acclimatize them when you took them home, because most likely your water and the water from your LFS are different. Once they are used to your water they should be fine. If you have plants dont add salt, just replenish, or equilibrium, and alkaline buff will do.


Vancouver water has always been around 6.8. I have things that stick on the inside of the tank that warns me if there are issues with the water. I can test the water electronically plus I have a test kit.

I don't have guppies any more they are all dead.


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

Elle said:


> Fancies aren't as tough as regular guppies. I'd get a GH/KH test kit from J&L or your LFS and test that before trying salt. The lower mainland has super soft water and it's really hard on guppies.


It's too late now because my guppies are all dead. The symptoms of my guppies were similar to the one that started the thread. How hard is the water on fancy guppies and their female counterparts?


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

IME, we lost a TON of fancy guppies (although not expensive ones) before we figured out the GH/KH buffering. It's not related to PH - we were keeping our PH stable at 7 and they still croaked. They lasted maybe a few weeks to 2 months or so.

I don't know where you're located in Vancouver, as your water is likely somewhat different, but we're in North Van near Capilano rd. and our water PH is something like 5.5 right out of the tap, and the natural GH/KH is practically zero. Does not make for happy guppies. I haven't found salt to help with fancies, but YMMV.

What worked for us was to put them in a tank with a substrate that included crushed coral, keep the PH around 7.5-8 by using alkaline buffer and buffer with Equilibrium for a higher GH and KH (around 10).

The fish are much happier and we somehow managed to breed these really cool tiger guppies (and tiger moscows) out of this mix entirely by accident.

_Example of a tiger guppy_


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## Emily (May 4, 2010)

Ok so we are practically neighbours as I live right on Cap road near Handsworth School. Interesting though because my tap water comes out at about 6.8-7... 

I'll add some coral though and will look into the equilibrium. Thanks!


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

So I see water ranging from a high of 7.1 to a low of 5.5. I further read that guppies require a PH of up to 8 for their well being. As I wrote my water can range between 6.7-6.9. That's the way it was in the early '70's and that's the way that it is now. I'm close to 18th an Cambie Street in Vancouver.

Water comes from the same source so I would have to conclude that the PH of water is not stable.

I've never been interested in testing the hardness of water because a PH between 6.7-6.9 equals soft water in my mind. 

I suppose water chemistry is more complicated than that. Mind you I've always favored angelfish and water has never been an issue.

I believe that the mystery regarding the death of my guppies has been solved. 

By the way your "Tiger guppy" is really nice.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

<waves to Emily> Howdy, neighbour!



> By the way your "Tiger guppy" is really nice.


Thanks! That example is a pic I pulled off google, but we have a lot that look exactly the same in various colours.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

When I first got into fish keeping, which was not too long ago by the way, I had quite a few guppies. Some looked like what was shown in the pictures, some had a big single color tail of red, or yellow, and then I also had some very plain looking females. They were all purchased from IPU (Richmond) which used ot be the only store I visited.

I had no idea what I was doing back then--and still don't now LOL. Then one day I noticed that my female was having babies. I got a simple breeding box from IPU and after placing her in there the next morning she gave out many many fries. I might not even have a gravel vacuum back then and I had blue/black/white gravles in my tank LOL. They were kept in the box and I fed them these very tiny shrimps (I think they were called mini mysis shrimps). I had some help from the nice folks at Richmond IPU and I did add API aquarium salt and some alkaline buffer into my water. I did that almost the first day I had my fish as that was what they told me to do at IPU. But all in all, they were very hardy and the only problem I ever had was that the males like to nip each other's fins as I only had 1 or 2 females among may be 5 males...the babies were very cute and my whole families were very excited about them for a while until they got a bit impatient to see that the fries never seemed to color up... I eventually gave them away and moved on to other fish. Guppies were one of the first fish I had, in my limited experience they were very eay to look after and very nice to look at and very easy to breed. I never really paid much attention to water parameters but since I have been adding salt and buffer and conditioner to my water since day 1 perhaps that made things easier for me without having to struggle with soft water.Kudos to the nice folks at IPu to tell me to do that since day 1. It was Garner who told me that, and Angelo later told em to use equilibrium after I started havign live plants.

Now, on the contrary, I dont add anything to my juvie discus water and the Ph of my DI water is around 6 or may be a bit less. I cannot test the PH with a kit as there is no ion in my water so the kit only shows the Ph of the test solution. If I let the water sit PH will drop more as Co2 gets in. TDS is pretty much 0. No mineral is added and they are happier than ever.  But of course they are much more difficult to keep than guppies as they are much more sensitive. I was making a big mess and killed them all the first time I had them. I have found that, from my limited experience, the key is big water changes and very clean water. They seem to be on the right track now and other than feeding and water changing it is not much else to do but to watch them grow. Thanks to Rick for offering me all his valuable experince and wisdom to make things much easier for me. Fingers crossed I dont do anything silly to mess them up.

I add buffer and equilibrium to my gold fish tank...a lot...so my water is hard in that tank. Not to 10 but probably 6-8, Ph probably 7.6 or so..

With my planted co2 tank the KH and GH are about 3-4. Not sure what pH is but pretty sure is is about 6.5-6.8. I add a tiny bit of buffer and equilibrium. Minerals are important for the plants and the SA fish seems to prefer softer water. I read somewhere too much hardness is not good for plants which prefer softer water, which is pretty much most plants that I have. 

I have these test kits but dont really use them anymore. No fish died for a while (except my first batch of juvie discus) and no one seems sick...so.....

For my discus I liek to watch them and check for any weird behavior. This is more useful and helpful in correcting any problem than testing for Ammonia/nitrate/nitrite as they are alwasy zero anyway (I do two major 90% water change in a day). The copper and KH GH alwasy come out zero, too but there are other stuff that Ineed to look out for that does not show by my test kit.

With my planted tank i mainly adjust the bubble counts and the lighting period depending on how the plants look. These things dont show up in test kit either. I dont have a kit ot test for iron I know some people use that to see if they are dosing enough. I just look to see if they pearl and if they are growing well. I kind of have an idea of how much growth to expect form each plant now as I have been trimming them and such for a few months now.

About parasite, my first batch of juvie discus (not from Rick) died when I tried to treat for internal parasite with medicine. I also added equilibrium in my water but they seemed ot hate that. They has white poo so I tried to treat for worms. I did not know Rick yet back then. April and Rick both suggested that only using big water changes or just salt, but I used medicine and in a day or so they all died. May be other fish are not that sensitive I dont know.


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

People have made some good suggestions here relating to water parameters - virtualy all livebearers common in the hobby require hard water with a little to a lot of salt, depending on the species. They tend to be much stronger and resiliant in those conditions.

The most common reason for scoliosis to develope in adult female livebearers, however, is a result of bacterial infections related to birthing. That isn't to say that your water was 'dirty' by any means; the offending bacteria are always present. Under certain conditions such as the physical stress relating to reproduction, the bacteria will have an opportunity to become problematic.


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## Emily (May 4, 2010)

I missed the last few replies here and am glad I thought to check back, thanks for the info! While the adult female died, all her fry are doing great and still growing, so it looks as though I had had luck adding some salt. I will probably continue to do that for the time being and hope all stays well.


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