# Sump Piping construction project: PVC and tips



## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

Planning stages of sump construction (Main tank is 135 gal, sump maybe a 90 gal). First time ever.. no previous experience..

any tips or advice you can share?

I heard not to use ABS but use PVC only because ABS leech out chemicals.. true?

What is the best place to get PVC parts? so far I have "Corix Water Products" in Surrey.

Main tank is not drilled and I know drilling is the best way but I am thinking about DIY PVC overflow. I am not using an overflow box because of the possibility of it loosing prime. On monsterfishkeepers, there is a pretty good design on the PVC overflow, kind of like 2 "u" shape put together and it retains prime even for a long time... Yeah or nay?

What is a good size PVC for the overflow side and the return side?

For the return pump I am thinking of "Quiet-One 3000".. maybe the return would be powerful enough to create flow inside the main tank so that I don't have to add a powerhead.

As for the sump design, I have thought of a 3 compartment design using my 90 gal as a sump. 
Left: wet/dry filter using rubbermaid file drawers on wheels. Saw a few examples on the internet where they have holes drilled at the bottom of each drawer and you can pull each drawer out for ease of cleaning. Bottom drawer wiould be submerged. 
Middle: Return section (heaters, return pump, additional media)
Right: Refugium (Red Claw crayfish). Part of the return from the return pump will be diverted to the refugium (using a T and ball valve) overflowing back into the return section in the middle.
Good design?


Thanks.


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## ninez (Apr 21, 2010)

Vancouver Irrigation has some PVC/bulkhead stuff.
Greenline is right across from Vancouver Irrigation for fittings.


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

ABS pipe is more $ than PVC. more rigid and less forgiving when it comes to fitting. Working time on the gluing is also not forgiving. Turn it too much after glue is on and you will have leaky joint. I also use threaded joint whenever and wherever possible. Cost a few $ more but allow for adjustments in angles and re-configuration without throwing away parts. If you ever decide to shut down the system, most of the parts can still be re-used for future projects.

If you like the 100g acryilc sump below, we can talk 

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/mari...assifieds-28/fs-100g-acrylic-sump-$350-19527/

If you take the sump, you can take from a bunch of misc. PVC pipes and stuff that will save you a pile of $ as well. If you go the ABS route, I have a small box of ABS fittings - mostly 4" and some 1.5" and 2".  Yes I have everything handy. Have been in construction and the same house for over 20 years 

If you don't want the sump, you can let me know what you need. I can see what I can give FF within reason.

I have 3 sumped systems here. You are welcomed to come take a look. Not the best nor by any mean perfect. At least you can see how the plumbing parts fit together and see what I may have that you can use


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

That's very nice of you gklaw.. Lemme chew on that for a while.


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

I recently sold my Freshwater gear and started a long research project about overflows as I am going Saltwater. I learned a lot over the last couple of months, so I hope you read my entire post and it's included links 

First, you shouldn't try to completely replace your in-tank flow with just a return pump. You may end up with low-flow areas or dead-spots you don't want or didn't plan on.
You could get very involved with a manifold return, with many outputs pointing every which way, but you are also then relying on just one pump for the health of your charges.

The 'U' style overflows work, but rely on a 'lifter' pump to restart when the return pump is powered back on. Relying on the pump to restart when, say, you aren't home, could starve your fishies and beneficial bacteria of oxygen.
You also have to consider the risk of your overflow becoming slowed or blocked and your return pump draining your sump while it is subsequently overflowing your DT 

There are DIY PVC pipe setups
My DIY PVC OVERFLOW TUBE

And there are DIY overflow boxes
DIY Overflow Box

Now, about drilling and so on...

Be very careful where you drill your tank as many, or even most, tanks have tempered bottoms and you will destroy it as it can't be drilled. Drilling the back is a great option. I have included for you some links so you can explore your options. I suggest you take your time and absorb all 3 options I linked as they all have their benefits and drawbacks, such as;
noise, placement, tank-to-wall clearance, flooding, and cost.

This first link is cheap and quick
Complete Overflow Kits - Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff

This second link is to what's known as the 'herbie method', and I have provided for you the designer's original post. You can find compressed explanations if you search the web for Herbie Overflow
This method is nearest to fail-safe
NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!! - Reef Central Online Community

And the fail-safe, no flooding ever method...barring your overflow box doesn't leak 
BeanAnimal's Bar and Grill - Silent and Fail-Safe Overflow System

Once you thoroughly read through these, and others you find on the web you should have a better idea what you really want to do.

Take your time planning this as it's a big decision.
Good luck,
Greg


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

Also, with freshwater tanks, it's good to have your filter receiving it's water from lower in the tank to cut down on detritus building up on the substrate.
I believe overflows were designed for saltwater where you want to 'skim' the surface.
You can make it work, just plan it well.
You will definately like the benefit of having less hardware in your DT, and a big filter.
And if you over-plan it with a large return pump area like I will have, you could even perform water changes without turning off the return pump, keeping your DT full at all times.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

Gregzz4 said:


> ... so I hope you read my entire post and it's included links
> .....
> Greg


Aiyaaaaaahhh! read your post and will follow up with your links when I get a chance. Thanks. More research needed for my crowded brain  but I want to play with the big boys/girls.


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

Gregzz4 said:


> Also, with freshwater tanks, it's good to have your filter receiving it's water from lower in the tank to cut down on detritus building up on the substrate.
> I believe overflows were designed for saltwater where you want to 'skim' the surface.
> You can make it work, just plan it well.
> You will definately like the benefit of having less hardware in your DT, and a big filter.
> And if you over-plan it with a large return pump area like I will have, you could even perform water changes without turning off the return pump, keeping your DT full at all times.


How do you keep it from syphoning in the event of power loss?


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

mdwflyer said:


> How do you keep it from syphoning in the event of power loss?


That's a very good question and thanks for bringing this to light. I see I was not clear with my comment.
I should have separated my thoughts of saltwater overflows and the circulation needs of freshwater.
The point I was trying to make is this;
Captured Moments is wanting to incorporate a sump with a FW system and eliminate powerheads. I am attempting to point out they may not have the best circulation with this setup as overflows are better suited for, in most cases, SW setups. From what I have gleaned from the web, there are no real benefits realised from surface skimming in FW systems.
Plus, many SW setups incorporate closed-loop systems, powerheads and/or wave makers to keep detritus from settling.
So, with that said, and to clarify...
Drawing water from low points in a FW system, IME, is always a better way to achieve both good circulation and filtration.
Having such a setup with any kind of 'overflow' is going to flood, as mdwflyer so politely pointed out.
I should have done a better job of separating my thoughts and thank you for your post as I don't want to lead anyone in the wrong direction


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks, it's all about learning. 

I went the overflow/sump method. Initially I made a whole bunch of different return nozzles trying to get proper circulation. With 1" pipe coming out of the overflow back to the sump didn't allow the amount of flow I was looking for (a complete redesign of my overflow might have helped, but whatever). Added a powerhead, strategically placed, now all (most) of the poop ends up in the castle.


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

What kind of flow were you looking for? I ask this as a 1" overflow pipe is capable of 600GPH without much noise.


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## hondas3000 (Apr 22, 2010)

1" overflow is not enough and we usually like to over kill our filter and therefore the overflow pipe need at least 1.5" and up. Or have 2 holes of 1".


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

sorry if this is hijacking, but it's probably helpful 

Having played around with what I have, the overflow on my system is the restriction. The U tube is 1" and I built a durso stand pipe out of 1". I don't think I could fit a 1.5" stand pipe in the box. 

It is quiet, but my rio 2500 (750gph) that's lifting water 5' high was running about 50% restricted.

While experimenting by-passing the overflow and running the U tube straight into the drain, I could run the return pump wide open. First problem is it sounds like Al Bundies toilet, second problem is flooding when the suction gets broken


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

The good thing about oversizing is you get more internal surface flow and less surface tension.
The bad thing is you can create more noise if too much air can flow with the water.
Without trying to quote a bunch of stuff I can't recall right now, basically it allows more water to flow.
Air occupies the center of the pipe as water flows. This creates turbulence and noise. And so on. So the bigger the pipe, to a point, can make the downflow quieter. But it can also make it noisier.
I just don't have the info in front of me right now to elaborate on it.
But, if you have a full siphon, like with a modded Herbie or a Beananimal, you can achieve full flow with no noise.
There are reported instances where people have achieved 2000GPH with pipes as small as 1-1/2"
Anyway, I gotta go for now...


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

mdwflyer said:


> sorry if this is hijacking


That's not hijacking, that's creative input. All I got from your post is info for the OP.
If you have a question, PM me.


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

hondas3000 said:


> 1" overflow is not enough and we usually like to over kill our filter and therefore the overflow pipe need at least 1.5" and up. Or have 2 holes of 1".


I agree David
I only say that a 1" overflow can flow 600GPH with *minimal* noise.
And I stated earlier that larger pipes can have the benefit of more flow with less or no noise, depending on the setup.
Keep in mind that larger pipes, if not setup correctly, can create _more_ noise than smaller ones.
It's all about planning your project with good knowledge


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## hondas3000 (Apr 22, 2010)

Gregzz4 said:


> I agree David
> I only say that a 1" overflow can flow 600GPH with *minimal* noise.
> And I stated earlier that larger pipes can have the benefit of more flow with less or no noise, depending on the setup.
> Keep in mind that larger pipes, if not setup correctly, can create _more_ noise than smaller ones.
> It's all about planning your project with good knowledge


There is way to eliminate noise for over flow. Either in the sump or the overflow cap. I read about it a few time but never try it myself so not sure if its work.


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

I am all ears for quiet/high flow standpipe suggestions in the overflow box.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

I spent the whole weekend shutting down 2 tanks, moving fish around, reinforcing and modifying my stand for the 135 gal.. haven't got a chance to research sump and overflows but this week I should be clear. Yeehah, I 'm tired.


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

there are quiet overflows around if you know how to build them, takes more space and parts but they can run virtually quiet.

it really depends on how much water is entering the overflow box, the size of the overflow box and the drains. if you do things right the only sound you will hear is the return pump humming....

Christian let me know if you need help setting up a sump and the overflow box, plumbing etc.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

tang daddy said:


> there are quiet overflows around if you know how to build them, takes more space and parts but they can run virtually quiet.
> 
> it really depends on how much water is entering the overflow box, the size of the overflow box and the drains. if you do things right the only sound you will hear is the return pump humming....
> 
> Christian let me know if you need help setting up a sump and the overflow box, plumbing etc.


Sure thing bud and thanks, I'll keep that in mind.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

Ok so I have been feeling lazy during the holidays and haven't done much other than bought myself a Quiet One 4000 at J&L on boxing day sale. I also bought one of those "rubbermaid" on wheels 4 drawers carts. I have seen a few examples where people have drilled holes on the bottom of each drawer for a wet dry system and have the drawers filled with pot scrubbers. Water from the drain will enter at the top through a hole opening cut at the top and trickle down through each of the drawers. I will be doing a DIY PVC overflow system rather than an overflow box or drilling my tank. On the drain side, it will be all hard pipe 1 1/4 inch (maybe 1 1/2 inch but that may be a bit overkill) plumbed to the sump.
On the return side, the pump that I bought is a 1" outlet and this will most likely be the size of the entire return. I discovered that using all hard pipe plumbing can lead to vibration and noise so I am considering using flexible PVC hose in part for the return. There is a couple of sites in the US that sells them online but I would prefer to get them locally. Does anyone know where to buy flexible PVC pipe here in Vancouver?


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Definitely a flexible section by the return pump and as it enters into the sump. For vibration isolation and ease of maintenance. May consider using a unions at both connections as well.

KE may be your best bet for the black Laguna corrugated flex pipe. They seems to stock the full range of sizes.

Mike has a section of 1.5" FS:

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...nyl-american-marine-digital-ph-monitor-23107/


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

I agree using the unions sounds like a good idea. One for the drain side, another for the return side.
Question: Ball valves are quite expensive and you can get the slip style or the threaded style. Wouldn't it be a good idea to go with the threaded type in the event that in the future you can allways re-use it on a remod rebuild. Obviously then, you will need to get some extra fittings (male adapter, reducer bushings..). Some people also say to go a size larger on the ball valve because of the restriction on the valve part. 
I don't understand how you connect those corrugated flex hose to pvc fittings. Is it similar to a hose where you would use hose clamps and barb fittings? and you don't glue them like PVC?
Sorry for all the questions.. maybe I am making this all complicated.


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## Gregzz4 (Jun 25, 2010)

Captured Moments said:


> I agree using the unions sounds like a good idea. One for the drain side, another for the return side..


Use one on each side of your return pump. This way you can remove it for servicing



Captured Moments said:


> Ball valves are quite expensive and you can get the slip style or the threaded style.


True Union Ball Valves have no restriction and are about $23 for 1"



Captured Moments said:


> Wouldn't it be a good idea to go with the threaded type in the event that in the future you can allways re-use it on a remod rebuild.


Good plan. Just keep in mind that it will take up more space than just slip fittings



Captured Moments said:


> Some people also say to go a size larger on the ball valve because of the restriction on the valve part.


Answered above



Captured Moments said:


> I don't understand how you connect those corrugated flex hose to pvc fittings.


It is glued just like slip fittings



Captured Moments said:


> Sorry for all the questions.. maybe I am making this all complicated.


You'll get there


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

My comments below:

[Wouldn't it be a good idea to go with the threaded type in the event that in the future you can allways re-use it on a remod rebuild.]

I thread joint everything now. Yes cost a few $ more, but almost every single joint is reusable. With slipped glue joint, one mistake and you I swear you wish you thread joint everything  Been there too many times.

[Some people also say to go a size larger on the ball valve because of the restriction on the valve part.]

I am not convinced, if the inside diameters are not reduced - no reason to up-size. I never seen that done on any construction jobs - that would look ridiculous. They design 1" ball valve for 1" pipes for a reason.

[I don't understand how you connect those corrugated flex hose to pvc fittings. Is it similar to a hose where you would use hose clamps and barb fittings? and you don't glue them like PVC?]

I believe there are several type of flex pipe. The pool and spa ones are ribbed and they are glued to pipe part. The Laguana is spiral reinforced and I don't believe you glue them. I think their IDs are metric and a real pain to slip them into barb fitting from HomeDepot. I resorted to putting vaseline inside the hose and soften the pipe with heat to slip them on. You can add gear clamp on if you want. But, once they are on, you will never get them out without breaking the hose  I simply leave them on without the gear clamp. Laguana made special barb fittings for them. I only saw them at KE and I think I cleaned them of the 1" fittings  If you need a couple, come on by. I should be able to help you out with ball valves (3/4" and 1") as well.


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