# Automatic Water Change System in Apartment?



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I am looking at investing on an automatic water change system for my Discus tank and from my online searches (and youtube videos), I stumbled upon Genesis Reef Systems.

Automatic Water Change Systems | Genesis Reef Systems

2 things I need to get feed back on.

1a. Is anyone using Genesis Reef Systems locally? If yes, then what is your experience with the system?
1b. What is the most popular/reliable automatic water change system?

2a. I live in an apartment and my tank is in my living room (wifey does not want the living room to look ugly with storage containers for water etc). I don't have a basement and my storage room (with washer/dryer) - source of water in/out is a bit out of the way.

2b. The picture in my head is that whatever automatic water change system is chosen, it will be hidden away in the storage room and then there will be pipes (with pumps) hidden away to get the water changing stuff done automatically. I am no plumber, so I have no idea how this can be done. Is there anyone here that can help me install the system once I decide and purchase the water changing system?

P.S. This decision is not due to laziness, but its based on multiple other factors. 
1. Enables option for us to go on vacations with water changes taken care of
2. Expecting LOTS of overtime coming up with work for the rest of the year
3. Little kids --> less time for yourself to enjoy what you do. lol

So, please don't flame and lets keep this thread objective. Thanks. :lol:


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## Immus21 (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm really interested to see what you end up doing. I've been thinking about setting something up recently as well. I too feel that the time spent changing water takes away from quality time with my son. Goodluck!


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## mrbob (Aug 9, 2012)

me too! want something setup for my 210 stingrays! (there messy)


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

That sounds very complicated and expensive to me with expensive controller, storage tank, pumps and everything else.

Either way you have to run line from your storage room to your tank and somehow get the water out. Why not do a continuous drip system with 1/4" semi-rigid hose in black or the standard translucent white - dirt cheap at around 17c/ft at Rona. I just ran 40 feet from my basement to my tank. The pipe is hardly noticeable. 

The trick is now draining overflow away. 

I am planning to use the existing sump and using it as an overflow reservoir. Now all I need is a practically a sump pump to discharge the water, with a 3/8 translucent rigid plastic line, when it is at high level much like a normal house sump work. Except a normal sump pump may be too noise. I am planning on using the proven float bob but tie that to a mag drive or something that will provide you with the head to push the water up up and over your ceiling to drain. I have only about 3 ft of head to deal with. 

To make this fail safe. I am planning to use tie the supply to a solenoid which will turn off either with a mini high level float switch or with power failure to avoid overflow of the sump. depending on the size of your tank, sump and the drip rate, your pump may only need to come on once or twice a day.

Ah, supply is tempered water through a carbon filter.

Cost:
40 ft 1/4 supply line at $0.17/ft = $6.80 
plus plumbing fitting say $10
supply line 1/4" solenoid = $25
40 ft of 3/8 discharge line at say $0.25/ft = $10 
plus plumbing fitting say $10.
Sump pump float bob = $35 (actually free as I stripped that from an old sump pump that died)
Pump, say $80 (also free as I am going to adapt the existing sump pump to the 3/8" drain line.
high level cut off mini switch $10 (cut off supply on power failure or if sump pump die).
misc electrical supply $10

The cost for the complete system including drain pump around $200-$250 if I have to buy everything new. Electrical circuit is simple 110V house power with minimal fancy electronic.
Not sure why I want to spent hundreds on electronic that may be prone to failure.

I have a similar auto top up system running for over 10 years without a single incidence.

The only expensive part for my setup up (if you cannot do your own plumbing is the tempered valve which is hooked directly to my water system when I replaced the HW tank. Otherwise the temp control was $50 hardware from HomeDepot using to prevent scalding from lavatory or shower. Cheaper than keeping a tank of water tempered with a heater. Alternately, you can hook up a $50 Hydor in-line heater to the supply.

I am hoping to have that up and running this weekend if you want to drop by to take a look. MrBob, you are welcome to drop by any time if you want to check it out and discuss. There are many options depending on the particular situation. The sump pump would not be necessary if I have gravity flow to drain.

Regardless of how reliable the system is, I always have someone come in to feed the fish and keep at eye on any unforeseen system glitch.
Even a running tank could start leaking. Sadly, it happened to me the only time when it was just a long weekend away when I did not think it was necessary to ask my friend to feed my fish and check on the system. Good thing that was not on a auto top-up.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

My main worry is a potential leak. If something does go wrong and extra water goes out and goes into the floor, then I am looking at a $30,000 bill from the Apartment management. I have no idea about plumbing, thats why I decided on that Genesis system. The price is not cheap for that system, but I am willing to bite the bullet on something that (to me) is clean and reliable. Of course, even with that system, I still need someone to help me with the installation. lol

I have thought about drip system and its probably something that will be beneficial when I have a home. That way, I am free to do anything I want and there are lots of opportunities to hide things in basement etc.

I would certainly like to drop by your place and take a look at how you set up your drip system.


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## Foxtail (Mar 14, 2012)

I was thinking about this too. A simple solution donned on me... With a continuous drip you would just need a continuous overflow... Or siphon... You could run the line parallel to the fill line but only lower the end of it to slightly below the height of the waterline. And into a cup or small container over your drain/laundry sink. So with the tank filling, the water level would rise activating the siphon and overflowing the container into the drain. Eliminating airlocks and back flow... 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Here is a review of the product by one of the buyers/users.
All reviews online have been very positive.

Product Review: Genesis Reef Systems - Renew - Part 1 - Reefs.com


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## hondas3000 (Apr 22, 2010)

There is DIY system where you hook up to a timer and using a electronic shutoff from sprinkler system but then you either have your tank drill for or sump drill for auto drain and with the flow switch, when your water level drop to the level you setup it will auto turn on the pump and fill the tank again. Then again you need to know about electrical and plumbing. So all you need is a water supply line and a draining line and you can hide this easy. I do use flow switch on my pump as well so when my water in the sump drop to the level i setup, my pump will auto shut off that way I wont run the pump dry and will not damage my pump.


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## Treasure chest (Apr 21, 2010)

If I were to set up a system in your situation, I probably would do a 2 stage setup. I would install a storage container in the storage room that will get filled just enough for the water you need to change at a time. The storage container will be filled by a controller, I may consider install some catch and drain piping system just in case something fail and over flows the container, I am sure you can find drainage pipe close to your washer. The water may sit there for a day to age then get pumped to your aquarium after controller has drained the older water from it. That way the damage will be minimal even worst of worst happens. I always hesitate to install an automatic water change system in door because the risk I face is just too great. I don't think any system will be 100 percent safe. I only trust my own eye when doing water change.:lol:


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Smiladon said:


> My main worry is a potential leak. If something does go wrong and extra water goes out and goes into the floor, then I am looking at a $30,000 bill from the Apartment management. I have no idea about plumbing, thats why I decided on that Genesis system. The price is not cheap for that system, but I am willing to bite the bullet on something that (to me) is clean and reliable. Of course, even with that system, I still need someone to help me with the installation. lol
> 
> I have thought about drip system and its probably something that will be beneficial when I have a home. That way, I am free to do anything I want and there are lots of opportunities to hide things in basement etc.
> 
> I would certainly like to drop by your place and take a look at how you set up your drip system.


It seems like whatever you do, you still need to get water to the tank and water out of the tank into a drain? I don't see how the referenced system could do that for you without having you physically carry water across your living room.


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## dino (Aug 29, 2011)

im just guessing but in a appatment im thinking your kitchen is by your living room? if so kitchen equals water source and a way to drain it. when i do a fish room i think drip system is the way to go and instead of a float i was going to drill a hole and put a bulkhead at a high spot on my last sump section and that bulkhead would be a drain and if something goes wrong the extra water would just continously drain out. not sure if this is clear but lots of good advice so far good luck with this


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Hate to tell you this but there is NO 100% guaranteed leak proof system. Even some reef-ready tanks have been known to leak but at least those usually leak water down into a sump tank. Felicia has been helping me with water changes on my sw tanks since she was less than two years old. So now, whenever she sees me getting ready to do a big water change, she'll ask if she can hold the hose while I siphon water out or pump water in. It's become part of our father-daughter time. 

In your situation, I would get two dedicated siphon hoses and maybe some sort of clamping system to secure the hose ends into the tank. Use the larger diameter hose for siphoning and the smaller diameter for pumping new water in (smaller since its going in under pressure but siphoning out under "gravity"). Have some sort of clamp to the storage container and to the sink. Then mark on the back corner the water level that matches the volume of your storage container. Then you can quickly siphon out the correct volume every time, stop the siphon (even have the end of the hose at the water level mark) and start the pump. You'd be done in only a few minutes and then you just remove the hoses & clamps until the next time. Its usually while doing water changes that spills happen (i.e. hoses fall out of tanks and shoot water all over the floor) which is why I suggest some sort of clamping or securing system.

I really don't see how you would have an automatic water change system without a lot of unsightly pipes or hoses permanently criss-crossing your apartment unless you plan to drill into the wall (don't hit a wire or pipe).

If your tank is not already drilled, then any auto water change system that relies on using a HOB overflow box would NOT work. If your tank is already drilled, you could run a line permanently to a drain and just have a pump on a timer that pumps water into the tank. Unfortunately, in an apartment, storing a large enough container, like a 55g barrel, is probably not an option. 

Hate to say this, but with your life situation at present and into the foreseeable future, keeping discus is probably not the best option due to the high maintenance requirement. Heck, a sw reef tank requires far less maintenance than a discus tank.

Anthony


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Hard truth there Anthony. Thanks for the honest post 

I currently use a pump to push water out and I use my 75Gallon tank as a holding/storage with aged/heated water.
I use the same pump to pump water into the tank.

For now, I think the best thing to do is the following: (considering the risks involved and potential cost of the automatic water change gone wrong)
1. Move my tank away from the Living Room and into my office (which is closer to the washroom - easier water change)
2. Buy another pump and have it dedicated to push water from storage container/tank to the main tank.
4. Get some sort of clamp to secure the tubes during water change.
5. Have a semi-automated system where the container/tank would get filled up automatically after a water change. (I will probably need help with this one)

This will still be somewhat a manual process, but at least it will be a little easier/faster to do.
I still might not keep up with the required number of water changes that my Discus need...If I feel that its getting worse, then I might have to let them go for now and come back to Discus in a few years.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I recently had a plumbing incident and I had to bring in a plumber (who is a cousin of one of our BCA members) and I had a chat with him about the Automatic Water Changes and Risks etc.

From his point of view, the water change system is not required as it probably wont work out in my apartment. The best thing to do is setup the fish tank near the kitchen and use the plumbing for the sink to setup a drip system with drain.
This way, all pipes will be behind the tank and hidden. (Have to cut out dry wall)

So, I did some research on a fail safe way to do this and came up with this idea:

Water Input:
1. Attach pipe/tube to cold water
2. Put pipe through check valve and solenoid
3. setup 1-2GPH drip system
4. Add a shut off valve before the solenoid (Thanks to Treasure Chest's response below)

Water Output:
1. Create 2 overflows with pvc and tube (lots of videos online on how to make them)
2. put them in each side of the tank and connect them both using a T connector
3. Put a check valve in the tube/pipe
4. Connect pipe to drain
5. Put 2 x float switches and connect to solenoid

Security measures:
1. Solenoid will stop water flow if electricity is out
2. 2 PVC overflow better than one (if one of them loses its suction)
3. If both PVC loses suction for some reason, then float switches will ensure that solenoid is shut off

Cant think of anything better. If anyone has input to make my idea more fool proof, let me know.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Hopefully this post shows properly,

Easier method without having to incorporate over solenoids, flow pipes, float valves, controller to monitor everything would be just to drill the tank at the level which you want to drain. Drip into tank, excess water would spill into the bulkhead you've put in the hole and down the plumbing you install into it, no need to worry about power going off and over flowing and so on.


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## Treasure chest (Apr 21, 2010)

There is no fail safe for indoor auto water change IMO. What if solenoid fail; controller fail; float switch fail; what if your drain bulk head gets plugged? If you constantly checking may be okay but if you set once and forget it or leave it while on vacation,I will be worried.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Treasure chest said:


> There is no fail safe for indoor auto water change IMO. What if solenoid fail; controller fail; float switch fail; what if your drain bulk head gets plugged? If you constantly checking may be okay but if you set once and forget it or leave it while on vacation,I will be worried.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2


It all comes down to probability.
1. Solenoid Fail: Not concerned (probability of one of these failing is very low) - Even if it fails, water will still drain out the overflows
2. Overflow Fail: I have 2 overflows for that reason in the design. If one fails, the other can continue without fail - If both fail, then there are float switches
3. Float Switch Fail : Again, 2 float switches at different heights: Probability of both failing is slim.
4. Drain bulk head gets plugged?: This is a concern, but Solenoid and float switches should take care of that for me if that ever happens

The only time this can fail is if all components fail at the same time. 
I also believe that if solenoid fails, then the water flow will actually stop. --> someone please confirm or correct this statement

I think it is a good idea to put in a manual shut off valve before the solenoid. This will give me control over things if something does go wrong. Thanks


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

kacairns said:


> Hopefully this post shows properly,
> 
> Easier method without having to incorporate over solenoids, flow pipes, float valves, controller to monitor everything would be just to drill the tank at the level which you want to drain. Drip into tank, excess water would spill into the bulkhead you've put in the hole and down the plumbing you install into it, no need to worry about power going off and over flowing and so on.


This is no different than just removing the security features and redundancy out of my proposal.
Solenoids and float values are not a requirement to get the drip system working, its there for a protective measure.

As Anthony and Treasure Chest mentioned, there is no 100% fool proof way to setup an automatic water change system.
Any task I take, I like to think about all the things that can go wrong and then come up with a solution to prevent it. The steps I put up are based on those thoughts.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Smiladon said:


> This is no different than just removing the security features and redundancy out of my proposal.
> Solenoids and float values are not a requirement to get the drip system working, its there for a protective measure.
> 
> As Anthony and Treasure Chest mentioned, there is no 100% fool proof way to setup an automatic water change system.
> Any task I take, I like to think about all the things that can go wrong and then come up with a solution to prevent it. The steps I put up are based on those thoughts.


If you solenoid fails in the open position, it fails in the open position, if it fails in closed, it fails in closed. You can over complicate the whole matter to give yourself piece of mind, you can spend as much money as you want, but you've got many areas that could fail when you incorporate your system as mentioned here and its all because you're over complicating something that has a very basic solution with minimal mechanical. If the valve you use to limit the water fails, and your solenoid can't take the pressure every redundancy you've built in could be pointless, you'd just have a warning due to the float valves if your system was setup with a good controller ($$$) of getting a alert while out of town knowing your place is potentially flooding. You have a very simple option that requires no mechanical monitoring, no relying on suction and so on, if you are worried about 1 over flow failing, well drill 2 spots then. If you're able to setup things so you don't have to require mechanical stuff, it is usually best not to and this is why I've held off on building myself a auto-water changer/drip system because I don't have the option to make it simple and even with a Neptune Apex controller who can monitor and control all this stuff for me, there are just way to many areas that could go wrong, and disaster.

Oh well, its your idea, and its obvious you just want someone to pat you on the back and tell you to go for it instead of getting feed back, so here you go, pat pat pat.


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Tends to agree with kacarins if it is as simple as dripping with a drilled overflow. Drilled tank with gravity drain is no doubt the easiest way to go and done right is fail-safe.

However, the complication comes when the tank is not drilled for overflow.
I have not done any research on siphon overflow at a low drip rate. My initial thought is that it could be problematic and may require more "security features".

I just completed my drip system before I left home on Wednesday. Will post a few pictures when I get home.
The only difference in my case is that I do not have gravity to drain as the tank sits low and I have a foundation wall to negotiate.
I sump pump was required to push water out of a sump where the output collect.
I did put in a solenoid that fail closed (Normally Closed without power) lined a a high level solenoid in the sump. This is to cover the event of a power outage or when the sump pump fail to empty the sump.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I apologize for not clarifying.

1. I don't know if my tank can be drilled or not (not sure if its tempered glass or not). 
2. I also have no experience drilling the tank and I am not sure how much it would cost for someone to come and drill the tank. 

Considering this, setting up an overflow is much simpler and quicker to do. I looked at some videos online with drip system and overflow pvc pipes and came up with the idea.

Another option would have been to have a pump in tank at all times which is connected to the drain with float valves. Once the valve is activated, then pump can run until water level goes down again. The problem with this method is that if pump dies, then its 100% flood.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/diy-area-18/drilling-glass-aquarium-37134/

Above shows you how to find out if the glass is tempered so you can figure out if you can drill or not, and how to drill.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Thanks for the video link. Very instructive indeed.

My idea was based on this video: Automatic Water Exchange - YouTube
Please watch it and let me know what you think.


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Smiladon said:


> Thanks for the video link. Very instructive indeed.
> 
> My idea was based on this video: Automatic Water Exchange - YouTube
> Please watch it and let me know what you think.


All I can say is.... wow

Someone obviously has way to much time and money, I'd say his system there probably costs $200 - 400 in material alone with all the redundancy/stupidity he has going on. One thing I see in that guys video that I would not do is put the solenoid before the pressure regulator. I'm sure he has done it because he allows himself to tie into the feed line prior to the pressure regulator, not sure as to why as the drip system is meant so you don't have to do water changes and wouldn't require that!

uarujoey who you just watched a video for has a video I believe for a drip system as well and the material he uses to give the drip costs about $20 or so, of course you'd have to add in filtering system unless you dripped slow enough that it wouldn't be a problem. Add in about $20-40 for required pieces for plumbing for the drain and you've got a nice cheap, non-complicated system that doesn't have 15 mechanical pieces that could fail and require replacing.


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