# First Planted Tank...Need Advice!



## pacifictide (Mar 7, 2011)

Hello!

I've just planted my first tank and would love to hear peoples opinions on starting a CO2 and fertilizer regime as well as general opinions on my water parameters. I've always taken a minimalist approach when it comes to tanks and only want to add what I need - but am struggling to determine what that is. 
The plants and fish seem to be doing fine so far and I'm not sure how urgent it is to start adding things (pardon my ignorance) or how much I need to add...Basically hoping for an individualized plan??

Also, I just tested the water and am somewhat surprised by the results (below).The water here in Nanoose Bay is also a lot different from what I'm used to in Vancouver so it's proving to be a bit of a learning curve for me.

I have Metricide, KNO3, K2SO4 and KH2PO4 on hand...I was going to order CSM+B but heard that it contains Copper which is no good for my shrimp...

Here is my setup:
75 gallon tank
Rena XP3 canister
Marineland Stealth Pro 250W Heater (aware of the stop-sale...waiting for a replacement to be shipped)
Hagen Glo T5 HO Double 48" fixture 
1 Life-Glo 54W bulb (6700K)
1 Power-Glo 54W bulb (18,000K)
120 lbs of Eco Complete

Flora:
Asian Water Grass - floating
Hygrophila Difformis - background
Ludwigia Repens 'Rubin' - background
Bacopa Caroliniana- background
Rotala Rotundifolia - background
Rotala sp. "Nanjenshan" (Mayaca) - background
Bacopa Australis - mid
Cryptocoryne Parva - mid/foreground
Marsilea Quadrifolia - foreground
Echinodorus Tenellus - foreground.
Anubias Barteri var. Nana 'Petite' - wood/rocks

Fauna:
15 Harlequin Rasboras
6 Rummy Nose Tetras
3 Amano Shrimp
So far...Any suggestions for stocking are welcomed!

Here's what I've done so far:
-Used pure ammonia to complete a "fishless" cycle.
-Did a 90% water change and added plants and rocks on Saturday, March 5th. Used water straight out of the tap - treated to remove Chlorine, Chloramine and heavy metals.
-Added fish on Sunday March 6th.
-Current API Test Results (Tuesday, March 8 @ 10am): 
PH: 8 (NOTE: the PH was 7.4 last time I tested on March 6th. Thoughts?)
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 40ppm (Having just done a 90% water change on Saturday coupled with having plants and a low fish load, can anyone tell me why it could be so high so soon?)
GH: 140 mg/L
KH: 110 mg/L (NOTE: the KH was 70mg/L last time I tested on March 4th before doing water change, adding rocks and planting tank. Do you suppose it could be caused by the rocks that I added?)

*I've attached 3 pictures of the tank as well as 2 pictures that show charts detailing the local water parameters.* The water comes from a well and is high in Iron and Manganese.

Other information:
I have a water softening unit that is not turned on right now...Should I be using this?
I have a carbon block filter (for our drinking water) which I could use for water changes but it's slow...It would take a better part of the day to get about 15-20 gallons...Worth it?

Here are some of my questions re: dosing:
-How much Metricide should I dose and how often? Can I dose less than recommended, or start slow and just watch how the plants do?

-Given my water parameters and setup, what fertilizers do I need to dose? I'm a little weary of starting EI dosing but not into testing all the time either...to be honest I'm not even sure what to test for...Can there be a happy medium or more individualized plan by analyzing my water parameters, starting slow and watching how plants do? I've attached 2 pictures of charts detailing my water parameters.

I apologize for the vast range of questions and thank you in advance for your opinions & suggestions!!!


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## pacifictide (Mar 7, 2011)

Update: Seem to have lost one Rummy Nose today although I'm pretty sure he had ammonia poisoning from the LFS. His gills were red and he wasn't doing very well from day 1...


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Since you started with a fishless cycle, I don't need to tell you not to.  In a properly planted tank, you can skip the cycle by stuffing it full of cheap stem plants and just going into a full dosing regime right away. I would do 2 things right away:

1. Ditch the powerglo. Get a Coralife Colormax if you want to see redder plants in the future, or another 6700K or a 10000K. The Powerglow isn't that great a bulb for growing plants.
2. Dose Metricide daily. It's about 2x as strong as Exel, so I'd use half the recommended dosage from Seachem, which is 5 ml Excel per 50 gallon, so for your 75, I'd do 5 ml max, maybe 4 to be on the safe side to begin with. And do it every day.

There may be any number of reasons that the nitrates are still high, the number 1 being lack of a carbon source for the plants to fully utilize the nitrates since you're not dosing Metricide or injecting CO2. It may also be that the plants have not started to grow yet as the tank is new as it take time to get going, plus you have that Powerglo bulb. Nice part about the harder water is you may not have to add a GH booster at all.

All trace ferts will have copper in it, in traces. Plants and fish, and even you and I, need trace amounts of copper. I dosed CSM+B, Flourish, Tailored Aquatics Amazon Elements in my shrimp tanks without problems. Just follow the recommended dosage.

At those lighting levels (the t5HO with reflectors are very efficient, as I'm finding out with my GLO retrofits with Tek reflectors), the algae can quickly overrun the tank if allowed to get a headstart so along with the Metricide, I'd start EI dosing like this:

60 - 80 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 3/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1 tsp once a week (water change only)
+/- ¼ tsp (15ml) Trace 3x a week
50% weekly water change

I took that from the Barr Report EI summary here:

EI light: for those less techy folks - Aquarium Plants

Hope this helps.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh I forgot to add, get more rummy nose (maybe an even 12) as they'll be much happier, and more amanos, and maybe a BNP or some otos, for an algae crew at the very least.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Can't add anything at all to the excellent advice Gary has given you, suffice for me to say that you have done a fine start-up aquascaping job on that tank - I'm sure it will look superb in a couple of months ! Congrats.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Metricide at excel levels often times isn't enough for a medium lit (or even medium low) tank. the co2 section: http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/plants-algae-ferts-ei-co2-lighting-13/basic-guide-carbon-dioxide-81/
has a section for metricide dosing at per gallon levels. Read the whole post though because it talks about the thresholds for exceeding that dosage. I normally tell people to start off with double the daily dose right away because often times their lighting is too powerful for the recommended dosage and if it isn't, it still wont harm the livestock and will help keep algae at bay while the tank ecosystem balances.

I'll say it again, exceeding 4 times the dosage is risky, if you find you need to then your tank has something wrong with it. Your lighting will be too high (need co2 then) or you have your fert regime all wrong, or you don't water change 50% weekly.

To be honest though, metricide only at a tank your size is a lot of product so i'd piece together parts slowly for a pressurized set up or look into getting setting up jello co2 with 2x4L jugs off set a week or two weeks. Should last 3-4 months on avg.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I know neven and I have discussed this before but I feel I still need to emphasize this point (although neven already stated it partly). I feel if you need to overdose glute (Excel or Metricide) then you're better off to
a) reduce your lighting
b) run pressurized CO2

I'm growing plenty of plants in my 100 gallon cube with 48 watts of GLO retro fits with Tek reflectors. Problem is I am not able to grow carpet plants without CO2 at those lighting levels and in quartz sand, but that's my choice as I want open areas for my Cories.

And I guess neven and I are both saying it's in your best interest to use CO2, since option 1 isn't available to you. I personally feel though, and Tom Barr also tells this to everyone who will listen, that the new T5 HO lights are so efficient, that with proper CO2 usage, most every planted tank is overlit by 2 to 3 times. 

Personally I'd much rather light a 75 gallon with 54 w T5HO and inject it with CO2 than 108 w and inject it with way more CO2 or dose Metricide. The savings of not running the extra tube (bulbs, electricity, cost of the fixture) will easily pay for the CO2 system over a few years. It's too bad the GLO's don't allow you to light the tubes individually, as that would give you the best of both worlds - 1 tube at a time to spread light coverage with a short overlap which is a like a noon hour sun burst.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

lol i expected that and i do agree with you to an extent, but we'll never see eye to eye and what is considered a glute overdose  plus i think you'd have a heart attack if you see what stuart does (i wont go that far) succesfully.

i found carpetting plants to never establish right if you use recommended dosages at low lighting. Stems can get get scraggly looking near the base as they grow aswell. With glosso i've found that you need to have a decent root system establish first via diy co2 (or pressurized) to maintain its lush look and high growth rate on glutes only.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

I think the best analogy is, would you be willing to soak in glute 24/7/365.. or better yet, drink glute added water in place of tap/pure water.

hard to say we are not consuming CO2 since bread uses yeast (CO2) to raise the dough, alcohol is fermented with yeast, carbonated water is CO2, soda, etc..

If you do not have a lot of fish, I would skip the potassium sulphate. potassium nitrate provides enough potassium for a non high bioload tank.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

EDGE said:


> If you do not have a lot of fish, I would skip the potassium sulphate. potassium nitrate provides enough potassium for a non high bioload tank.


Thanks EDGE, I forgot to add that bit, I dose very little to no potassium nitrate nowadays.

And just to be clear, my reservation again Glute is not about the plants. It's about humans and livestock. If one is going to do a planted tank with no livestock and you are careful in handling the Glute, dose away, use 20 or 30x the recommended dosage if necessary, because there is no livestock to harm. Some of the aquascaping contestants do this. They crank the CO2 to toxic levels and jack the light up to grow the plants fast. They can do this because the tanks are not stocked.

If you are after nice plants, don't make it at the expense of the fish, unless there is no fish. If you're after nice fish, then the plants will have to be sacrificed, hence the reason I am not doing CO2 and very little Excel in my discus tank. Do I have some algae, yes I do, and I take care of it with Excel misting and pruning, but I decided injecting CO2 into a high temperature tank is not conducive to good fish health. And neither is putting in huge amounts of Glute. This is a fish-first tank for me.

I'm not saying everyone should do like me, but I am stating that you have a responsibility to consider the welfare of your livestock. If you're not going to, then don't stock it, and just grow a beautiful plant farm.

Heck, you can grow beautiful carpets of HC, Glosso, what have you without Glute, CO2, using natural sunlight only. It's DSM. Best method to get a carpet growing, bar none.


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## pacifictide (Mar 7, 2011)

Wow! Thanks sooo much for all the great advice!!! It's so nice to have support - I feel much better 



2wheelsx2 said:


> 1. Ditch the powerglo. Get a Coralife Colormax if you want to see redder plants in the future, or another 6700K or a 10000K. The Powerglow isn't that great a bulb for growing plants.


Heading to the LFS tomorrow to buy a different bulb.



2wheelsx2 said:


> 2. Dose Metricide daily. It's about 2x as strong as Exel, so I'd use half the recommended dosage from Seachem, which is 5 ml Excel per 50 gallon, so for your 75, I'd do 5 ml max, maybe 4 to be on the safe side to begin with. And do it every day.


Did a 30% water change and dosed 4.5ml of Metricide. 
What's the worst case scenario if i miss a few doses? Plants won't absorb nutrients/grow as fast? 
Could I gradually stop using it once my plants are well established?



2wheelsx2 said:


> There may be any number of reasons that the nitrates are still high, the number 1 being lack of a carbon source for the plants to fully utilize the nitrates since you're not dosing Metricide or injecting CO2. It may also be that the plants have not started to grow yet as the tank is new as it take time to get going, plus you have that Powerglo bulb.


Very wise advice on the high Nitrates. I believe you are right. I'll see if the Metricide and new bulb help.



2wheelsx2 said:


> At those lighting levels (the t5HO with reflectors are very efficient, as I'm finding out with my GLO retrofits with Tek reflectors), the algae can quickly overrun the tank if allowed to get a headstart so along with the Metricide, I'd start EI dosing like this:
> 
> 60 - 80 Gallon Aquariums
> +/- 3/4 tsp KN03 3x a week
> ...


Regarding ferts, in the Barr article to you referred to, he states:

"The Estimative Index method works best for a high to medium light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to higher light setups, *smaller quantities of fertilizers can be dosed if low light is used. Also, the frequency may be reduced to 1-2x a week at low light(1.5-2w/gal)*."

According to my calculations, I have 1.44w/gal so maybe smaller quantities and less frequency would apply to me? The question is how much less?

For argument's sake, is it possible that N could be naturally occuring in my aquarium through the basic Cycle (especially if I increase my bioload), that P can be acquired through fish food and I might just need to add some K?

Also, I realized that my attachment was sized to small to read...
Just wondering if there may be enough trace elements in my well water (and fish food/substrate) that I don't need the CSM+B?

Here are some average readings:
Iron: .55 mg/L (above Canadian Drinking Water Guidelines)
Manganese: .21 mg/L (above Canadian Drinking Water Guidelines)
Boron: .07 mg/L
Copper: .004 mg/L
Zinc: .006 mg/L

I also read these articles and though they don't completely apply to me, did find some of the ideas worth considering...

Non CO2 methods - Aquarium Plants

Hybrid methods, fusing dry start+ excel with non CO2 - Aquarium Plants

I'm probably over thinking this. I suppose that's why EI dosing exists...



pacifictide said:


> PH: 8 (NOTE: the PH was 7.4 last time I tested on March 6th. Thoughts?)
> KH: 110 mg/L (NOTE: the KH was 70mg/L last time I tested on March 4th before doing water change, adding rocks and planting tank. Do you suppose it could be caused by the rocks that I added?).


Thoughts anyone?



pacifictide said:


> Other information:
> I have a water softening unit that is not turned on right now...Should I be using this?
> I have a carbon block filter (for our drinking water) which I could use for water changes but it's slow...It would take a better part of the day to get about 15-20 gallons...Worth it?


What about water softening and filtering?


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## pacifictide (Mar 7, 2011)

EDGE said:


> If you do not have a lot of fish, I would skip the potassium sulphate. potassium nitrate provides enough potassium for a non high bioload tank.





2wheelsx2 said:


> Thanks EDGE, I forgot to add that bit, I dose very little to no potassium nitrate nowadays.


...Skip the potassium sulphate or the potassium nitrate?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

pacifictide said:


> Did a 30% water change and dosed 4.5ml of Metricide.
> What's the worst case scenario if i miss a few doses? Plants won't absorb nutrients/grow as fast?
> Could I gradually stop using it once my plants are well established?


Unfortunately as your plants establish themselves and consume more nutrients, you'll need to dose a bit more. Hence the suggestion for CO2. But it's not catastrophic to miss here or there. I do it all the time. You're not going to get an algae explosion, but you will see some. The best way to not have to dose is to reduce the lighting. Both duration and amount.



> Regarding ferts, in the Barr article to you referred to, he states:
> "The Estimative Index method works best for a high to medium light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to higher light setups, *smaller quantities of fertilizers can be dosed if low light is used. Also, the frequency may be reduced to 1-2x a week at low light(1.5-2w/gal)*."
> 
> According to my calculations, I have 1.44w/gal so maybe smaller quantities and less frequency would apply to me? The question is how much less?
> ...


EI is supposed to take care of all that guesswork by using the large water changes (50%+) to cope with overdosing of nutrients. You can certainly dose less once you have a feel for what the uptake is. You can test for nitrates and phosphates and cut back. I did. I no longer dose phosphate, nor much K.



> Also, I realized that my attachment was sized to small to read...
> Just wondering if there may be enough trace elements in my well water (and fish food/substrate) that I don't need the CSM+B?
> 
> Here are some average readings:
> ...


Yes, they were too tiny for my poor old eyes. But once again, EI will take of this. So as long as you do the water changes, you're golden. Plenty of people do EI based on well water which have higher TDS ratios and lots of metals. 


> I also read these articles and though they don't completely apply to me, did find some of the ideas worth considering...
> 
> Non CO2 methods - Aquarium Plants
> 
> ...


Good on ya. Never hurts to do more research. When I started planted tanks, I read all the different opinions and tried to assimilate it and asked lots of questions. I posted lots on plantedtank.net and on barrreport. Tom Barr is a great guy and always willing to help. He may be a bit sarcastic at times, but is certainly very knowledgable. Does he know everything? Of course not, no one can.

As for the non-CO2 methods - you can fit in that category, but probably not at that lighting level. But again, that's only my opinion. These things, my opinion is to run with the least amount of light you can get away with. Then you don't have to worry about CO2 ferts, blah blah blah. I only have 1 tank that is EI dosed and CO2 injected now. At one point I had 2, and 3 others doing EI with Excel.



> What about water softening and filtering?


Softeners use salts to achieve that. If you think you have too much TDS then what you want is an RO/DI unit, not a softening unit.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

skip potassium sulphate. 

with HO T5.. 1.44 wpg is under moderate light.

I can grow a decent amount of plants using 3x HO T5 (approx 3-4 years old bulbs). if I replaced the bulbs, I can easily get explosive growth with plants under the high light category.

Looks like you have enough trace from your well water without adding trace.

ADD: you can get away without using CO2. your growth will be steady, but not explosive speed. Increase the surface agitation/movement and that will take care of some of the CO2 and O2 issues of non injected tanks.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

That's true what EDGE said RE: CO2. He has more experience than most on this forum growing great plants without CO2. I'm still working on mine without getting algae.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> That's true what EDGE said RE: CO2. He has more experience than most on this forum growing great plants without CO2. I'm still working on mine without getting algae.


You give me too much credit. I deal mainly with cryptocorynes  and a few stem plants for the sake of testing non CO2 environment. pogostemon stellatus does really well without CO2, same with bacopa. Plants do a lot better when the tank is not heavily planted in a non CO2 tank.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Knowledge is knowledge. I'd rather not learn by trial and error. . I have grown Bacopa without CO2, but did not know about P. stellatus. Time to keep an eye out for some.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

i had it in my tank for quite some time 2wheels. It would need to be trimmed about 2/3s off every 2 weeks without co2, looked really lush. I had each stem branched into two, so by the time i trimmed one back behind the driftwood, the other was peaking up. Base was as thick as my pinky (and i got fat fingers). Just dont buffer the water too hard or it'll suffer

I got rid of it due to it not blending into my scape of crypts all around it


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I never looked into it, as I read it was a bit more difficult to and required CO2, just like my L. aromatica. I never could grow that plant to my satisfaction without CO2. Even with CO2, it was never as red as some people's plants I saw. But now that I don't have any L. aromatica, I'm wanting to try something like that.


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