# What do you african cichlid keepers use to raise your ph and hardness?



## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

Planning on changing my 120g community tank to an mbuna community. Would like some advice on upping hardness and ph. I plan on using river rock and keeping my pool filter sand substrate. Also where should I look hen it comes to stocking. Would like to start with juvies and keep male female groups of a few different species. Thanks for your help!


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## sunshine_1965 (Aug 16, 2011)

I understand that crushed coral will raise the ph level.


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## jkcichlid (Apr 21, 2010)

using aragonite (crushed coral) as substrate will bring the pH up to around 7.8 - 8 as well as help buffer the water.
There are also cichlid salts you could add at each water change

There are several classifieds right now with juvenile mbuna


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I would prefer to keep my pool filter sand substrate if possible. Anything more specific when it comes to salt? Quantites per gallon etc. I heard epsom salts. Anything else?


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

I use seachem products, Alkaline buffer, Equilibrium, and Cichlid salt. I use the same amounts every water change, Ph, Kh, and Gh stay very consistent. I just don't have the time to mess around, this stuff works. If I didn't have plants I would skip equilibrium.

Which ever way you decide to go. Take a 5 gallon bucket, and test all the parameters. Then add whatever products you have individually, and test all the parameters again. This way, You will have a better understanding of what affects what, and that is very important.

Another tool that you can use, is a TDS tester, Total Dissolved Solids.

Rastapus has come great threads on this forum regarding this subject.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks do you have to add this to he water before adding to the tank or can you do it simultaneosly? Also just got back from collecting river rocks. Here is an example of what my rock formation could look like.


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## Vman (Jan 20, 2011)

As for water I do my own mix that I learned from a very reputable breeder.1 tbs of Epsom salt/10 gallons,1tbs of Marine salt /10 gallons and 1 tsp of baking soda/10 gallons.I mix these in a jug just before my weekly 50% water change and also add prime. Once dissolved I slowly add it as the tank refills. This is a very cheap alternative with great result. My water is very hard and have had Calvus and Tropheus breed repeatedly. Also use Purigen and filter floss in the canisters. As far as substrate,if you like the look of sand then you can get fine Arrogonite at J&L. It looks awesome. I would definitely use crushed coral.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

Excellent thank you. Sounds very similar to this Rift Lake Buffer Recipe - Cichlid Salt.


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

I add everything into the sump, without the sump I would pre-mix whatever I was adding into a 5 gallon pail. Nice pile of rocks,


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Vman said:


> As for water I do my own mix that I learned from a very reputable breeder.1 tbs of Epsom salt/10 gallons,1tbs of Marine salt /10 gallons and 1 tsp of baking soda/10 gallons.I mix these in a jug just before my weekly 50% water change and also add prime. Once dissolved I slowly add it as the tank refills. This is a very cheap alternative with great result. My water is very hard and have had Calvus and Tropheus breed repeatedly. Also use Purigen and filter floss in the canisters. As far as substrate,if you like the look of sand then you can get fine Arrogonite at J&L. It looks awesome. I would definitely use crushed coral.


There is a lot of Magnesium in Marine salt, not sure why one would add more. I strongly recommend a product like Alkalinity Buffer over Baking soda, Baking soda is not as soluble in water as the Alkaline buffer formula. I strongly encourage the use of Marine Salt however, Aquarium salt is after all, sea salt.


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## Vman (Jan 20, 2011)

Everyone has their idea and none are righter or wrong. I am just sharing my experiance with my mix.I have had a great success and like the results.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks I appreciate everyone's advice.


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## poiuy704 (Nov 6, 2010)

I use lots of tufa rock in my cichlid tanks, cheapest source is the local landscape supplier 
I think the last load I got was about $0.20 a pound compared to about $5.00 at the Lfs. it's easy to shape & drill tunnels into for your fish to hide in. 
another tip is buy it after a long dry spell as it will weigh about 1/4 of what it does when it's been sitting in the rain


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## scott tang (Jan 29, 2012)

Look consistency is better than ph always changing so all I did was conditioned tap water with prime when I changed water on my 75 gallon so when the babies hatched my ph was the same in the fry tank so all i had to monitor was temperature consistency is all ways better for fish(I think ) I had a great time breeding tropheus ikola with this method. Mine seemed happy


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## Sidius (Mar 25, 2012)

I use Seachem products as well.. I use Cichlid Lake salt and Malawi/Victoria Buffer and dose according to the container. It seems to keep my KG/GH/PH pretty stable and the fish happy.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

I will be dosing Seachem product aswell. Although I bought African Cichlid substrate made for Africans. Carib sea claims no additives should need to be used. I will be putting it to the test. 

As for adding baking soda to your tank IMO it is a waste of time. It does raise your Ph but does nothing to help your buffering capacity. Its a trick people used back in the day before products like Seachem were on the market. I have found if you use Seachems buffering products eventually you barely need to add anything to increase the Ph because it really does help your buffering capacity keep the Ph stable. We all have our own ways of doing things im just looking for ways to make my tank as little work as possible. If baking soda works for you thats great! I just find it easier to do things the proper way which isnt always the cheapest!


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

Well I have a 25 gallon bucket at home that sat over night with a tablespoon of baking soda epsom salt and seasalt. I will test it when i get home. I dont know if his is what i will use yet i just happened to have all this stuff. I dont know if i should make a new thread or not but were would you recommend i look for some mbunas? I would like to buy local but will order from elsewhere if i can't find the variety here.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Bizbomb said:


> Well I have a 25 gallon bucket at home that sat over night with a tablespoon of baking soda epsom salt and seasalt. I will test it when i get home. I dont know if his is what i will use yet i just happened to have all this stuff. I dont know if i should make a new thread or not but were would you recommend i look for some mbunas? I would like to buy local but will order from elsewhere if i can't find the variety here.


I think we can all agree to each their own. New school vs Old school. What ever works, works! I just recomend reading as much as you can and decide for yourself what works better.

As for mbunas. I know a few LFS have them. Rogers, IPU, Mr. Pets, Pet Land to name a few. I have found most of my africans on Bcaquaria from members. Some of the sponsors are selling them aswell. IMO no need to go elsewhere we have tons in the lower mainland


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## Ladayen (Aug 21, 2011)

Rastapus said:


> There is a lot of Magnesium in Marine salt, not sure why one would add more. I strongly recommend a product like Alkalinity Buffer over Baking soda, Baking soda is not as soluble in water as the Alkaline buffer formula. I strongly encourage the use of Marine Salt however, Aquarium salt is after all, sea salt.


Aquarium salt is made from evaporated sea salt true, however it is not the same as sea water. A chemical change happens and it is not as easy as adding water back to have normal sea water again.

As to using baking soda, as already mentioned it's not as soluble and there have been instances where certain chemicals have forced the baking soda to complete seperate from the water causing a crash and wiping the entire tank.


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## Claudia (Apr 21, 2010)

I was using crash oyster shells to increase the ph in my tank but i just bought today Seachem Cichlid Lake salt, Seachem Malawi/Victoria Buffer and Seachem Prime. I will start using it as soon as i redo my tank but now i am in the search of black aragonite to change the substrate


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Claudia said:


> I was using crash oyster shells to increase the ph in my tank but i just bought today Seachem Cichlid Lake salt, Seachem Malawi/Victoria Buffer and Seachem Prime. I will start using it as soon as i redo my tank but now i am in the search of black aragonite to change the substrate


Good choice on deciding to use seachem products to buffer and maintain true African water. Seachem and all other companies put alot of money and research into their products. They work great!!!

As for substrate look on caribseas webpage. Im pretty sure I saw some sort of black arogonite made for Africans cichlids on there. I have researched tons on Africans and substrates and I really think using proper substrate for them makes them happier and me happier knowing I have less work on the tank. I work for a LFS. Thats how I speacial ordered mine but I know they will order others for people too . Just let me know if you cant find any elsewhere. Most LFS will order it in for you if you ask.


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## Ladayen (Aug 21, 2011)

jbyoung00008 said:


> Good choice on deciding to use seachem products to buffer and maintain true African water. Seachem and all other companies put alot of money and research into their products. They work great!!!


They put alot of money and research into making more money. Sometimes the products genuinely work. Sometimes they offer lazy people a supposed alternative to work and dont actually do much.Seachem has some stellar products. They also have a few that are complete and total crap.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Ladayen said:


> They put alot of money and research into making more money. Sometimes the products genuinely work. Sometimes they offer lazy people a supposed alternative to work and dont actually do much.Seachem has some stellar products. They also have a few that are complete and total crap.


I agree some products might not be as good as others. Companies with big names like Seachem or Caribsea obviously wants to make alot of money. You dont make lots of money if all you are interested in is money and not the final product. There is a market for lazy people who dont understand how to maintain a tank and feel the need to add products that US hobbiest would never use. Keep in mind not everyone in this hobby is as devoted as we are. Some do water changes once every 3months. So making products for them is essential. Its how we all learned. By trying these products and making are own judgements. I have bought some crappy Nike's over the years. Does that mean Nike is crap and dont do any research into their shoes? No. It just means not all products are great.

As for buffering products. Seachems works. Im not the only one who thinks so. So IMO why not use these products. Keep your fish happy and create less work for you. Perfect African water straight out of jar or buy adding a little more expensive substrate . Im sold!!!

I will be putting all these products to the test in my African tank. No home brews just Brand name products. I will post all my findings as soon as the tank is up and running. Which is in 30 days or less. Not that Im counting. LOL I cant wait to move.

Happy fish keeping
Justin


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

With seachem after i figure out how much to use do i need to premix in a container or add while adding water to the tank?


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

It all depends on which product. For me I fill up a yougurt container with warm water and mix the product first than add it to the water. Otherwise the fish think its food and try to eat it and its probably better to mix it into a container rather than just dumping it in.

If you are going to use these products try to record your findings for the first few weeks. I like to use agenda books for my tanks so I have it all on record to compare to after. Once you find the PH is staying stable(buffering capacity is working) you will find you wont need to add much Ph buffer. Thats what I found anyways.

As for the Seachem salt here is what their web page says. Many competing products are little more than combinations of Epsom salt and bicarbonate of soda. This will not provide a complete replication of the mineral salts that are contained in the lakes of Africa, in particular calcium and potassium. 
TIPS: Use when setting up an aquarium and when making water changes. To add salt to an established tank, base dose on water being changed. Do not use salt when simply replacing evaporated water. It is best to dissolve the salt in freshwater before use. Now who knows if you actually need to use as much as they say or as often with the salt. I will do more reading on what is actually in it. Maybe a salinity checker would help you know if you are adding to much or too little?

here is a link to seachems website on African salt Seachem. Cichlid Lake Salt

Cheapest I have found these products is at J&L. $12 a bottle


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## Sidius (Mar 25, 2012)

I add them to the buckets before adding water and by the time they're full the salt/buffer is mixed in. I do it this way so that I'm only adding enough for the exact water that I'm adding to the tank. It really comes down to trying different methods and finding a routine that works best for you. Fish are pretty resilient creatures and can adapt but the key is consistency so the water parameters are always the same (and of course keeping the water chem. in the correct range for your fish).


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## MOLOTO (Jun 8, 2010)

Usually I just use baking soda. A lot cheaper than the buffers that are premixed.


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## IceBlue (Mar 17, 2011)

Baking soda and Epsom Salts, some go without Salts as Moloto above. Cheap and seems to work. I keep w/c's regular and replace same amount of buffer each time.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

I dont see how adding baking soda and epsom salt creates ideal African water. There are other minerals such as calcium and potassium in the water so those minerals should be added aswell. Correct me if Im wrong but people are basically saying that the great lakes of Africa are made up of lots of baking soda and epsom salt. Nothing else. If its that simple we should turn Como Lake into an African Rift Lake LOL might be more fun catching Africans rather than those tiny rainbows they stock it with. LOL. Using proper salts might be more expensive but the amount of money I have put into this tank im willing to spend a little more cash to make the water perfect. If the fish are happy, I am happy. Once again just my opinion. 

If there is a rift lake speacialist on bcaquaria feel free to weigh in on this topic.


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## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

In all fairness to the epsom/soda/salt debate - I used seachem rift salt and pH buffer for a few months and had success, but I had breeding and healthier fish when I started using instant ocean/baking soda/epsom salts.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

It's been a while but I decided to go with the seachem buffer and cichlid salts. Hopefully by this weekend I will have all my peaceful community fish up for sale. The following weekend I will be going for a trip to Portland and I see they have a nice looking fish store with an excellent selection of cichlids!


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## lar (Apr 21, 2010)

Bizbomb said:


> It's been a while but I decided to go with the seachem buffer and cichlid salts. Hopefully by this weekend I will have all my peaceful community fish up for sale. The following weekend I will be going for a trip to Portland and I see they have a nice looking fish store with an excellent selection of cichlids!


I am planning a trip to Portland too. Please share your thought after you come back.
Good luck!


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

I will do that


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## Sidius (Mar 25, 2012)

Ya there's a couple really good LFS in Portland for Cichlids... I hope this isn't against board rules but check out The Wet Spot Tropical Fish and THE CICHLID EXCHANGE


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Bizbomb said:


> It's been a while but I decided to go with the seachem buffer and cichlid salts. Hopefully by this weekend I will have all my peaceful community fish up for sale. The following weekend I will be going for a trip to Portland and I see they have a nice looking fish store with an excellent selection of cichlids!


Good to hear! The Seachem Cichlid products are great. Not too sure why some hobbyists still dont want to adopt a commercially available product. Africans are very hardy fish in general but the goal here should be for them to thrive with proper mineral content in the water as close to their needs as we can. Bloating in Africans is common when the hardness is low. I am all for saving a buck but not with the water chemistry if an aquarium.
I am glad to see however, more hobbyists at least looking into buffering at all, as opposed to relying on crushed coral to do the job.


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## Vman (Jan 20, 2011)

Like Neoh said.The mix works.Many fish have spawned in this environment.Anyways,do as you please and enjoy the fish.


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

I figured it is worth the money for me. I dont want to be the person it doesnt work for and it isnt going to break the bank.


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## Sidius (Mar 25, 2012)

No I don't find the cost difference really worth it, but I can understand why some people would like to experiment with their own mixes. They do contain other trace elements that the fish would have in their natural environment and if they can help my fish thrive that much more, I'm all for it. To each their own of course.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Im no Mathmatician. Im actually terrible at math but I thought I would add up the cost on my tank to use the Cichlid lake salt. Here are my findings. Seachem lake salt can be purchased for 10.95. It treats up to 1500 gallons. It says on the bottle If I remember correctly. Bottle is at home. I will round down and say 1000 gallons. If I do a water change once every 2 weeks of 50% which = 62.5 gallons. The bottle will last 16 water changes and 8 months.

$10.95 x 12% = $12.26 cost of lake salt
50% water change of 125g = 62.5 gallons
1000 gallons divided by 62.5 gallons = 16 water changes
$12.26 divided by 16 water changes = $ .76 per water change

I think I did that right! To me at that price how could you go wrong. Add the cost of the buffer which eventually you wont need to add much once the tanks buffering capacity is fully working. Im sure the homemade stuff is cheaper but I know with the lake salt I am giving my Africans proper Malawi Water.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

jbyoung00008 said:


> Im no Mathmatician. Im actually terrible at math but I thought I would add up the cost on my tank to use the Cichlid lake salt. Here are my findings. Seachem lake salt can be purchased for 10.95. It treats up to 1500 gallons. It says on the bottle If I remember correctly. Bottle is at home. I will round down and say 1000 gallons. If I do a water change once every 2 weeks of 50% which = 62.5 gallons. The bottle will last 16 water changes and 8 months.
> 
> $10.95 x 12% = $12.26 cost of lake salt
> 50% water change of 125g = 62.5 gallons
> ...


The dosage on the container is likely based on harder water conditions, likely you would need to add more depending on the GH level. We use sea salt, it is a better value for sure to do so particularly if you purchase a bucket etc. Seachem salts likely replicate the lakes but of course those lakes were once saltwater so likely very similar composition. 
Magnesium Sulfate is just that, strictly Magnesium Sulfate so you are missing out on other elements if only that is used. I am not saying using those products will not "work", believe me, I am grateful to hear hobbyists are using anything to raise GH. I can remember some time ago when my suggestions on this subject were met with a lot more opposition then today. If you use Marine salt, likely the price difference between that and Magnesium Sulfate will not be great.


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## Slopster (Mar 14, 2011)

i havent read all of the posts, sorry my bad, but why not make your own buffer, way cheaper then buying it..


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## Bizbomb (Apr 21, 2010)

All the community fish are gone just need some africans now.
Just measured the parameters after using seachem malawi buffer and cichlid lake salt. I used 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of the buffer and 3/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of the cichlid salt as the directions said.
PH-7.6 
GH-2.24dH
KH-6.16dH
I also bought coral gravel from IPU to put in my canisters to help buffer. What should I put the gravel in before putting in the baskets as some pieces are too small and wont stay in the basket.


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## Sidius (Mar 25, 2012)

You could try putting a layer of filter floss on the bottom of the basket before putting the gravel in? Or you could buy some of those seachem "The Bag" bags to fill with gravel? I don't know how big they are or how big your baskets are but it would work. Just stack the bags in the basket in a way that the water flow can't just go around them.


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