# Stunting and deformed new growth



## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Had a bout of something similar and then I dosed K last week and new growth got better. Came back again this week but I've already dosed K one more time since last week, should't be a deficiency now. Also dosed Ca last week. Using Equilibirum with water changes. Kh at 4. Gh at 6

I can't figure out if its Ca, K, or otherwise deficiency. Parameters for NO3 and PO4 are 10 and 5 respectively, should be no problems there.
22gal tank. I've been dosing macro and micro 3x a week. Water change 2x a week.

Let me know if you have any ideas.


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Any help? Should I just chop the top and see if things get better?


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

reckon your turning into a plant maniac..lol, 

post some tank shots .. looks good from the pics i have seen


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for the response. I guess I'm into aquariums not just for the fish but also for the "moving paintings" 
But wow plants are hard to figure out. I thought I had learned what needed to be learnt about ferts, ph, kh/gh, light, and co2. Guess there's much more.

I'll post the 22gal in my journal in the next day or two.


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Aquarium Plants Deficiency | Aquariums Life

If you start dosing one thing, other deficient will occur. You'll need to find the new right balance of nutrients. new growth stunting usually is a deficiency in macro nutrient.


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## Transposon (Sep 19, 2012)

I remember reading something about carbon deficiency, deformed new growth, glutaraldehyde and Tom Barr... but the memory is quite faint now...


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for bringing it up. I have been reading lots into Tom Barr lately, I've upped the no3 and co2 a bit. It's possible that in my attempt to get more red from my plants I've let the no3 drop too low.
The drop checker has been lime green and ph @ 6.2 during the day though, I've allowed the controller to let it go down to 6.1 the last couple days. Guess we'll see over the next week or so.


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## Transposon (Sep 19, 2012)

Alright! Let's see if the plants get better. I'll be following up


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for the support!


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Also seeing stem rot in the Nesaea crassicaulis, at least 1/4 of my plants.


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## Transposon (Sep 19, 2012)

You probably have already seen this thread, but I thought I'd share what I got from googling "stem rot".
What Causes Stem Rot? - Aquarium Plants
No definite conclusion is drawn but all these hypothesis flying around sure is interesting


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for the link. Yes, I've read it already. It implies some sort of deficiency but with ~ 50ppm of co2 (almost yellow drop checker, tried more but fish gasp) and 20ppm of NO3 over the last 4 days and now melt I'm at a loss. I think I'm at 1/2 the stems I had from the initial aquaflora tub. I'm going to give the NO3 increase another few days and then switch to increasing Micros. If that doesn't work I'll try reducing GH (though only currently at 6) via decreasing Mg dosing since there's some info out there suggesting Mg overdose.



Transposon said:


> You probably have already seen this thread, but I thought I'd share what I got from googling "stem rot".
> What Causes Stem Rot? - Aquarium Plants
> No definite conclusion is drawn but all these hypothesis flying around sure is interesting


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

macframalama said:


> reckon your turning into a plant maniac..lol,
> 
> post some tank shots .. looks good from the pics i have seen


Reckon you do seem to be enjoying your planted tanks and learning about them. I always enjoy are meetings. Youre always asking lots of questions on bcaquaria which is great for you and everyone else on here but at the same time IMO its possible to love your plants/tank to death. Just a figure of speech not trying to imply anthing but sometimes less is more. I dont EI dose but from what I have heard and read most people preform a weekly water change and dosing? You are double dosing every week and doing 2x the water changes. Thats a lot of commitment and work and a tough schedule to keep up with. Tanks take time to settle and develop so dont be in a rush to achieve a beautiful tank in a short time. Just my opinion. Its taken me a year to finally get my 25g planted tank looking the way I visioned. The upside is you are learning tons


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

jbyoung00008 said:


> its possible to love your plants/tank to death. Just a figure of speech not trying to imply anthing but sometimes less is more. The upside is you are learning tons


Thanks for the encouragement and advice buddy. You're right, I gotta let go a little bit. Also, my fault for choosing hard plants to keep, though that decision was intentional. I thought EI would cover almost everything since its suppose to provide ample nutrients. I guess sensitive plants like Rotala Macrandra, Rotala Wallichi, and Nesaea Crassicaulis still need slightly different parameters than the norm. I read online about some people (and have almost met some people on BCA) who do well with these plants but I don't just want to copy their parameters and not know why. Others struggle and just give up. I found that Tom Barr seems to be able to make any plant do well though it is important to consider certain parameters outside of EI dosing.

KH/GH parameters seem to be important when it comes to the red plants I mentioned above. Water needs to be soft, so KH and GH should be no higher than 4. These plants seem to like higher Ca (around 20ppm) but low Mg (around 2ppm).

"The role of calcium in plants is quite similar to that in people; it is essential for good growth and structure. Insufficient calcium levels lead to deterioration of the cell membrane; the cells become leaky resulting in the loss of cell compounds and eventually death ofthe cell and plant tissue" (Patterson, CCA).

The reason why red plants use less Mg and also look better with less Mg is "Red pigments are entirely made from C, O, H, etc.......Chlorophyll a and b has a long N in the ring, so less N, means less chlorophyll a/b= less masking of the red colors.
Fe and traces are part of the co factors in the enzymes, but they are not part of the Chlorophyll a/b nor red or yellow pigments. Mg is the only metal in Chlorophyll.
So little Mg= less green color also.
But, less N and Mg= less Chl= less growth also.
Fast growth has a development time issue, since the Chl a is added AFTER the Red and yellow pigments as a plant grows, this is why the tips are nice and red, and the later leaves are greener (Tom Barr, Barr report).

Some anecdotal evidence here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/27120-nesaea-crassicaulis-started-grow-when.html

It also seems that Nesaea Crassicaulis is sensitive to Boron deficiency. Boron is important for Calcium utilization.
"A primary function of boron is related to cell wall formation, so boron-deficient plants may be stunted" (Ecochem).
I was reading the label of Seachem Flourish Trace which said that a lack of Boron can lead to stem rot.
My next change in water parameters is to increase dosing of CSM+B. If this improves plant health it is possible that B deficiency is the cause. The following week I'll drop my GH paramters to 4deg and cut Mg dosing.


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

At the moment I only do 1 50% water change per week to reset the parameters. Increasing N dosing seems to help the overall health of all the plants (but not stem rot in N. Crassicaulis) so I'll be increasing that from my previous EI dose of 7.5ppm to 10ish ppm. My increase of 15ppm per dose has accumulated to ~40ppm after 5 days.

About a month ago I was doing 2 water changes because I had a lot of dead plant matter I was trying to clean up.


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## Algae Beater (Apr 21, 2010)

Reckon,

sorry I haven't brought this up at any of our meetings, but a metabolism testing battery would be helpful. EI dosing stipulates the lessened need for testing water parameters BUT if you perform checks on parameters before adding ferts and at various point throughout the next 24 hours it will give you a decent idea of the metabolic rate of your tank. there have been tanks where i dose in excess of 45ppm NO3 per day as a result of these tests. bear in mind that plants consume more nutrients at night, after the photo period has ended. This is a marginal difference but it is still worth noting. 

dose as much potassium as you want! to overdose on this you would need in excess of 1400 ppm (roughly 2 pounds in a 50 gallon tank.)

Calcium and magnesium are best dosed in a %:1 ratio respectively. A simple nutrient calculator (there are many different ones available online) or some stoichiometry if you're feeling nerdy will provide necessary quantities to add to your tank. 

another principle for you to consider is root calcium. Larger stem plants, swords, crypts, and some finicky smaller stems will benefit GREATLY from the addition of calcium and / or magnesium to the substrate. crypts will rot less (and some stems) I use flourish tablets from seachem as they are ~15% calcium. 

hope this rambling helps.


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## cdsgo1974 (Sep 25, 2011)

Last time my plants looked lethargic as in your attached image, I just had to change the fluorescent bulbs and the plants came back within a week. Now, I have to remind myself to change the bulbs every 6 months for my plants to really thrive.


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