# 8 Tank Shrimp Rack



## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Progress of my 8 x ten gallon tank rack. I'm planning to have multiple kinds of shrimp. But I might break down and keep some killifish as well.

















Here's the thread where I designed and built the rack and the overflow system.
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/diy-area-18/diy-overflow-shrimp-rack-70562/


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

That's awesome. Good simple design. You must of had fun setting it all up? What type of shrimp are you going to have?


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks. Yes, it has been great fun. Currently doing a fishless cycle with the Right Now bacteria and will write a post about that soon. As to type of shrimp, I've been focused on getting the tanks set up so I haven't really had the chance to take advantage of the Christmas sales. I guess it depends what's available and what people will be selling in the next few weeks.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

The Fishless Cycle - results after one day.
With 8 x 10 gallons + 15 gallons in the sump there is roughly 95 gallons total. There is Hydroton as the bacteria media in the sump.

At 7 am these were the water conditions:
pH 6.5
0 ppm Total Ammonia
20 degrees C

I dropped in 150ml of bottled Ammonia(NH3) which brought the system up to 5ppm Total Ammonia
At the same time I put in half a bottle of the Right Now bacteria (HDLTD.com)

36 hours later these were the water conditions:
pH 7.2
*5 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4+)
0.15 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)
*
I would have liked to test the nitrites and nitrates as well but unfortunately the used kit I have is faulty and I have to wait to get a new kit.

In any case, this is a totally surprising result (to me) and verifies the claims made by Hiatt on his website. He says in order to know that things are working correctly, test that the ammonia (toxic) has been converted to ammonium ion (non toxic). I have to look into why the pH changed so much during this process. From what I've read, the higher the pH, the more NH3 there would be compared with NH4+. But even when my tank went from 6.5pH to 7.2pH, there is hardly any NH3 and it is all NH4+.

As I said I would still like to verify nitrates, but the tank is cycled in a day. And totally non-scientific evidence - the water smells like fish tank water does.


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

ph level looks good, more updates please


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

At 7am (which is 48 hours after adding the bacteria):

pH 7.2
> 6 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4)
0 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)

Just so the results are clear. In 48 hours, all the toxic ammonia has been turned into non toxic ammonium ion form.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I've been doing a lot of reading about water chemistry and I think I've answered my question about the rise in pH. pH is a measure of how many hydrogen ions are in solution (H+). The process of going from ammonia (NH3) to ammonium ion (NH4+) is adding a hydrogen ion. So if the H+ is being used up in the NH4, there's less H+ and the pH then will show a rise in value (pH being a negative logarithmic scale of amount of hydrogen ion).


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

After verifying that you can indeed cycle a tank system with that amount of water over such a short time, I did an 80% water change. I didn't want all that ammonium ion floating around with hardly any plants to use it up. After the water change, the conditions were:
pH 6.6
0.5 ppm Total Ammonia (NH3 and NH4+)
0.0 ppm Free Ammonia (NH3 only)

Once I get a Nitrite/Nitrate kit, I'll post more results and probably do another NH3 cycle test. What's been interesting to read is that plants actually prefer ammonium ion to nitrates. It will be interesting to see how fast the plants will take up each of them.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Does this test convince anyone that cycling can be done in way less time than usual?


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I got a Nitrate test kit and decided to do another 24-48 hour cycle test with Ammonia.

Water conditions at Hour 0:
pH 7.0
0 ppm Nitrate
2 ppm Ammonium ion
0 ppm Ammonia
2 KH
5 GH
167 TDS
20 degrees C

I put in 100 ml of Ammonia to the 90 gallon system. I didn't want to put in as much as last time.

Water conditions at Hour 9:
pH 7.4
0 ppm Nitrate
>6 ppm Ammonium ion
0 ppm Ammonia
224 TDS

It seems I didn't even have to wait 24 hours for all the toxic ammonia to be converted into non-toxic ammonium ion. Within 9 hours, there are no nitrates whatsoever. Even during the last week from the intitial cycle test, there have not been any nitrates showing up.


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## nigerian prince (Mar 8, 2013)

my fish less cycle with pure ammonia took 22 days, but i've heard it can be done faster


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Here's an update after another week:
The amount of ammonium has not changed at all. But at least there is no ammonia. This tells me that the bacteria responsible for keeping ammonia locked up as ammonium is working well. However, there are no nitrites and no nitrates whatsoever. After 3 weeks in the usual fishless cycle you would at least see nitrites and lowering ammonia by this time. Now I should be happy with no nitrates but the Right Now system says that there should be no ammonia AND ammonium and there should be nitrates. I have been in contact with the inventor and am getting my questions answered. The big difference is that he recommends having fish right away - the the big selling point. But I wanted to do a fishless cycle so I have been adding a small amount of fish food in lieu of having fish.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Yay, I've finally got shrimp in my tanks!









Not quite as lively as I imagined they'd be.

The Right Now bacteria guy figures that my tanks don't have enough "burden" for them to show the full results of the system. I've been putting just a bit of fish food in for it to break down. He suggested going to the grocery store and getting some fish or shrimp (12 of them!) and throwing it in the tank for the bacteria to really go to town. Hey, I'm going for broke with this system to see that it works.

It looks crazy, I know. But I've read through the patent documents and the tests they put these bacteria through are really crazy. It makes for some great reading.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

I feel like you've been sold a bill of goods, to be honest. Your results are exactly what one would expect an uncycled tank to look like. Actually what I think's happened is you've added too much ammonia and your cycle has stalled out.

The ammonium/ammonia thing isn't what your guy is making it out to be either. The relationship between ammonia and ammonium works as any other buffer does; they exist in an equilibrium where the relative balance is determined by the availability of the H+ ion. It's a mathematical relationship that looks like this when you graph it









Apologies for the lousy graph; I'm not exaclty a wizard with charts. Anyway it's got pH along the bottom from 0 to 14, and the percentage of the total ammonia that exists as either ammonium or ammonia along the side.

As you can see, at pH 7.4 you'd expect only 1.4% of the total ammonia to be in the form of NH3. So at 6 ppm total ammonia you'd have a NH3 concentration of 0.08 ppm, likely below the range of any hobbiest testing method, with the rest being ammonium. So your results of ~6 ppm ammonium and 0 ammonia are about what you'd expect.

Additionally, you wouldn't expect bacteria to convert NH3 to NH4+, because there's no energy to be gained in doing so (the reaction is spontaneous; any given molecule will flip back and forth between ammonium and ammonia instant to instant without any outside involvement).

I've had a read though this guy's stuff and a lot of it comes across as very reasonable sounding gibberish. A lot of the basic stuff he says is technically true; but he put it together into a discussion that makes it sound like he doesn't know what he's talking about. Speaking as someone with a certain amount of training in environmental chemistry, I can say he's sounds more like a clever advertiser hyping a rather ordinary product than someone making a science based discussion of a breakthrough innovation.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Whether or not it's a bill of goods, I know that the Right Now bacteria did something. When I first put the 6ppm ammonia in the system, as I've described above, there was a massive build up of slime (bacteria) and the tanks smelled. Even using the chart you included, at ph7.4, there should be a measurable amount of NH3, which there has not been after the first ammonia test I did several weeks ago. In the meantime I have done a much smaller test. I put ammonia in a much smaller container with water and waited several days to see if it converted to ammonium. It did not. It was always in the form of NH3. Then I took a few hydroton pebbles which had the bacteria and put them in the container and then kept testing the water. Within 2 days, there was not a trace of NH3 and it was all NH4+.

The point with the NH3/NH4+ is that there is no buffer - it is a constant concentration of NH4+.

The Seachem Ammonia kit I'm using has a noticeable greenish tinge even when approaching 0.1 ppm. It's stayed pristine yellow in my testing - no green changes at all.


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## Phillyb (Jan 18, 2011)

So far I like the thread, can't wait to see things start happening with the shrimp! All the best of luck!


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Well, I suppose you are free to believe what you wish. I would point out you are at the lower end of the detection range at pH 7.4; there are pretty big error bars using those test kits. For example, your original test with 5 ppm total ammonia should only have come up with 0.04 ppm NH3 rather than 0.15. Hobbiest kits are not really what you call lab quality. I wouldn't rely on them for precise measurements (which you'd have to at the low end of the scale).

By way of example: A while back I got bored and did a series of tests with my nutrafin nitrate kit on samples with a known concentration of nitrate. It was all lining up nicely until I realized I'd made a mistake mixing up my standards and I was off by a significant amount (it was only about half of what I thought it was... IE my 100 ppm standard was more like 50 in reality, my 50 ppm standard was more like 25, etc). I went back and did the tests again with the same standards and ended up the numbers I should have got the first time. I realized then how hard it was to make an accurate reading of the colour; I was reading the results based partly on what I thought it _should be_, rather than what it was. My level of accuracy was only good enough to tell me what the nitrate was within a fairly wide margin of error; after that I was interpreting the results based on what I 'knew' the water should be.

If it were me, I'd bump up the pH as far above 8 as I could for a proper small scale test. At pH 8.3 (about as high as you can take the pH by adding baking soda) you'd have a really significant amount of NH3 in the water (0.5 ppm with 5 ppm total ammonia); that'd be well into the detection range of the free ammonia test.

I do like the setup so far, by the way. Looking forward to see how it turns out.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

"I love the smell of rotting shrimp in the morning."









Actually it's not that noticeable. It's been quite the interesting week - chemically. Remember, I had the water cycling for 3 weeks and in that time there were no nitrites, nitrates or ammonia. All the initial ammonia (6ppm) had been converted and stayed locked up as ammonium. I put 10 frozen shrimp in the system to see if that would add enough load to give the Right Now bacteria something further to do.
*
Rotting Shrimp (RS) Day 0*
pH 7.0
146 TDS
Ammonia 0 ppm
Ammonium >6 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 0 ppm

*RS Day 1*
Ammonia 0.1 ppm
Ammonium >6 ppm
Nitrite 0.1-0.5 ppm
Nitrate 0.0-0.5 ppm

*RS Day 2*
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium >6 ppm
Nitrite 0.5-0.8 ppm
Nitrate 2.0 ppm

*RS Day 4*
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium >6 ppm
Nitrite 2.5 ppm
Nitrate 5-10 ppm

*RS Day 6*
pH 7.2
186 TDS
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium >6 ppm
Nitrite 10-15 ppm
Nitrate 15-20 ppm

Quite interesting results so far. This is not your usual "cycle". As the inventor says, this bacteria doesn't have to be cycled at all. It seems that the initial pure ammonia (at 6 ppm) I put in the system was not enough for the various bacteria in Right Now to do the complete reactions. The rotting biological load (and eventual living biological load) is what is required.

I've put quite a lot of non living organic matter in and still there has been absolutely no free ammonia (toxic) showing up after 6 days. That to me is very surprising. This shows that all the ammonia is being converted to ammonium.

Nitrites and nitrates are now showing up. I will have to do a bit more checking but I thought with these particular bacteria, I would not have measurable nitrites. These results I see are a bit troubling, I have to admit.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Hmmm... interesting indeed. Have you been keeping track of your KH through your cycle? Also, what test kits are you using? Your readings are very precise (I'm a bit envious).

I'd maybe change some water at this point. You've got loads of nitrogen floating around in there; there's a decent chance of stalling out if any of the levels get _too_ high.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I didn't do any testing of KH or GH. From what I read these values wouldn't be affected. As to test kits: I have a digital TDS meter which I use for my aeroponics system. I have an API Master Test Kit which I test the pH and total ammonia. I have an API Nitrate kit and GH/KH kit. I have SeaChem Nitrite/Nitrate kit, Phosphate kit and Ammonia/Ammonium kit.

I really like the SeaChem kits. They are the only kit that tests individually ammonia vs ammonium. The free ammonia test is a small piece of reactive paper which can be used again and again. So that's really handy. Their Nitrite/Nitrate is a logarithmic scale from 0 to 50 for nitrate. So it's quite accurate for lower ppm readings. The API nitrate kit is kind of useless for anything between 0 to 20 because it's just similar shades of yellow-orange. It goes up to 160 ppm which is kind of pointless because you've acted on your readings well before seeing those kind of results.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Those Seachem kits do look good. I've gotta try that sometime. Thanks.

Nitrifying bacteria get most of their carbon from dissolved inorganic carbon; so if you've got low KH they can consume it all and then stall out. Could be why your progress have been so slow. The shrimp probably are working as a carbon source.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Another week in this water quality experiment. After the first 6 days described above, I removed the container containing the shrimp. They had served their purpose to get all the Right Now bacteria active.

(Removed rotting shrimp)
*RS Day 7*
GH 3 (50ppm)
KH 5 (80ppm)
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 20-30 ppm
Nitrite 15-20 ppm
Nitrate 30 ppm

*RS Day 8 (Added 250ml NitraGuard Biocubes)*
pH 6.8
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium >6 ppm
Nitrite 20 ppm
Nitrate 10-15 ppm

*RS Day 12*
pH 6.2
466 TDS
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 0.3 ppm (!!) 
Nitrite >25 ppm
Nitrate 40 ppm (!!)

This last week tells quite an interesting story. First, I removed the shrimp because based on the readings I had quite enough nitrogen floating around in the system and I could tell algae was starting to show up. After getting the readings that both nitrite and nitrate were increasing at an alarming rate at the same time, I was quite confused. In the usual cycle, nitrite bacteria show up first and spike and then after a few days, nitrates start increasing and nitrites go down. But I'm not dealing with the bacteria in the usual cycle.

After sending an email to the Right Now creator (who has been extremely great in answering my emails), he told me that without the tri-base carbon, it is usual to see nitrite AND nitrate increase in the system. This was surprising to me since on their web site, it specifically mentions that nitrite will be *reduced* without the tri-base carbon. This was actually one of the main reasons I was interested the the product. From the limited information I had read, I was assuming that there would be no free ammonia (it would exist as ammonium ion) and no nitrites and there would be reduced nitrates. This is what I wanted in a shrimp tank that also supported growing plants.

But having such a huge nitrite concentration would be killing any fish or shrimp. That's why I'm doing this experiment first.

Enter Nitra Guard Bio Cubes. The main use of the tri base carbon is to have a carbon source for the *aerobic* denitrification of nitrates (ie. convert into N2). I don't have any of that carbon and it's quite expensive and I can't find a local source. Shipping is also quite high. I still might try it in the future. However, I came across the Nitra Guard Bio Cubes which is also a carbon source for nitrate reduction. I figured I'd try it out and see if the Right Now bacteria could use that as a carbon source.

Looking at the results since I put the BioCubes in the system, there sure is a surprising result. In 4 days, 20-30ppm of Ammonium has gone down to 0.3 ppm. Nitrite and nitrate has continued to increase to quite high levels - both at the same time. Nitrate has not gone down however, with the introduction of the Bio Cubes - the expected result. According to other reviews, it should have 2-3 weeks to see that result. But, the cubes have decreased in mass by 1/2 in 4 days! They are supposed to last 4-6 months. At the rate I'm seeing, they will be gone within a few weeks. So my theory is that the Right Now bacteria is chomping away at the cubes, the ammonium is being used up and I will be seeing a reduction of nitrite and nitrate in this next week. We'll see.

Here is link to how the cubes look at first.
Reefkeeping South Africa » Marine Aquariums of South Africa » How to Build a Nitra-Guard BIO-Cubes Bomb

Here are some pics of my Bio Cubes after 4 days showing how much has already been used up and the obvious large holes through the cubes.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

For some reason I can't edit my posts anymore.

Here are my Bio Cubes after only 4 days.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Interesting stuff I've come across. I don't know how well-known this is since most of the aquarium articles I read don't even mention this fact. There are two forms of nitrite. Actually, there are two forms of ammonia and nitrate as well. When people are talking about nitrite they are actually referring to nitrous acid - that is the toxic form for aquarium animals. Nitrite ion is different. I am still doing reading into this. But just as I have come to understand the difference between ammonia (toxic) and ammonium ion (non-toxic), there might be the same thing going on with the Right Now bacteria and it's version of nitrite ion (not nitrous acid like the "usual" nitrogen cycle).

Also, there is no way to test for nitrite ion as opposed to nitrous acid - they both show up as "nitrites".


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Found an interesting review on aquatic nitrite toxicity a while back, if you're still looking for reading material.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks. How do you view that link? It just shows garbage characters in the pdf for me.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

cgjedi said:


> Thanks. How do you view that link? It just shows garbage characters in the pdf for me.


Huh... works for me. Maybe try it again with a different reader?


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

ok, ya the pdf reader in firefox for windows was unreadable but the same pdf reader on linux works. Weird.

Anyway, as soon as the writer dismissed nitrite ion and focused on nitrous acid - the rest of the article is useless to me.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Eh? I read it the other way round. The writer dismissed nitrous acid (HNO2) and focused on the nitrite ion (NO2-). Nitrous acid has a pKa of around 3.35 and wouldn't be present in water with a pH greater than 4 or 5.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*RS Day 14*
500 TDS
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 1-2 ppm  
Nitrite >25 ppm
Nitrate 20 ppm 
Phosphate 0.2 ppm

*RS Day 15*
pH 6.2
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 0.5 - 1.0 ppm  
Nitrite >25 ppm
Nitrate 40-50 ppm

*RS Day 17*
pH 6.0
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 0.1 ppm  
Nitrite >25 ppm
Nitrate 30 - 40 ppm

*RS Day 19*
pH 6.6
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 0.1 ppm  
Nitrite 10-15 ppm
Nitrate 5-10 ppm

Nitrates are going down even while there are nitrites still in the system. But even the nitrites are going down as well. The Right Now bacteria guy (he calls himself Snake) has been giving me some more information regarding the relationship between nitrate and nitrite for these bacteria. As mentioned in previous posts, there is a non-toxic version of nitrite - this is what these bacteria generate. So to test this out, I bought some white clouds and have them in one of the tanks. If this was toxic nitrite at 10-15 ppm, how long would people figure it would take to see adverse reactions to the fish? I'll keep updating how they do.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Difficult to say.... nitrite toxicity is highly variable between species and is dependent on the concentrations of other ions in the water (chloride in particular). Fishes of the family Cyprinidae can be pretty tolerant of nitrite (96 hour LC50 can be as high as 250 ppm for some species); but I haven't found specific results for WCMM's. While there is likely to be some damage, I doubt that you'll notice a huge difference over the short term.

I will point out that your little experiment is quite unethical. I doubt many fishkeepers will condone adding fish to water with a known high concentration of nitrite. My recommendation is that you move them to cleaner water immeadiately.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Ah, but there's the rub. In order to verify the Right Now bacteria as DIFFERENT from the usual cycle bacteria and this is NON-TOXIC nitrite, this chance has to be taken.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

That's true. However, your experiment isn't going to prove anything. If they live, it's because you didn't poison them enough. If they die, it'll probably be due to a disease rather than acute nitrite poisoning; which could also be attributed to moving stress, etc. You'll be hurting them for no reason.

There really isn't a non toxic form of nitrite. Your 'Snake' is aptly named. From his writing he's got a very weak understanding of chemistry; he doesn't even claim any qualifications. His entire 'company' consists of a website and a PO box. His original statements (no ammonia or nitrite within 24 hours) have been called into serious question by your own results. How credible is he that you'd believe him over experienced aquarists, government organizations (USEPA, USGS, Environment Canada, BCMOE, etc), and peer reviewed publications?

I really do feel like a jerk arguing with you in your own tank journal (and I really do like the work you're doing); but I think this guy is leading you down a path that isn't in your (or the fish's) best interests.


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## Bunny (Oct 13, 2013)

I just want to say that taking your own measurements into account, you have pretty high levels of nitrates, let alone nitrites. My understanding is that even with a properly cycled, mature tank, those levels of nitrates would be dangerous. Then look at your nitrites. Whether they are ions or not - thats still a high level of any chemical to be subjecting fish to. I thought your experiments were rather interesting until you started adding fish to a cycle that is likely not complete and doing no documented water changes to reduce the chemical levels. Furthermore, your purpose in adding the fish is to see if they die or not. That is cruel and unethical.

Additionally, I just want to point out that the product did not work for you. Adding fish and adding ammonia should have the same effect, regardless though - the fact is that it is on day 19+ and you are still watching your fish to see if they survive or die. By this point your "normal" bacteria are probably the ones responsible for dealing with the ammonia levels and possibly having an effect on the reduction of nitrites. Furthermore the Bio Cubes themselves are promoted as being able to catalyze a reduction in the nitrates regardless of what bacteria "normal" or "Right-Now" is in the tank.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

The guy HAS a patent on this discovery. That gives him all the validity he needs over people who THINK they know better. He's provided all the science and answers that I ask. I don't have any preconceived notions of the "proper" way things should be. He's given me info on his tanks that have been set up this way for a long time and are healthy and have similar water chemistry. So I'm not being "unethical" at all. This product has been around for more than 10 years, has lots of people who keep healthy fish systems. Just because you guys haven't heard of it before and choose not to believe there's something different (and possibly better) doesn't discourage me in the least.

Bunny, read the thread again. Your comments are way off base.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

A patent proves nothing beyond the fact that he was the first to apply for one. Patents don't prove claims, they just document them.

I also don't appreciate the assumption that I'm closeminded. Since I've found your thread I've actually been trying to come up with some scientific reasoning for this guy's marketing (imagine if bacteria in a bottle actually worked... that would be awesome). I have actually found some papers that discuss areobic denitrification; which is pretty counterintuitive from a thermodynamics perspective (they still don't understand why they'd do it... the thinking is it's possibly an adaptation for dealing with environments with fluctuating O2) but at least theoretically legit (although supposedly not very efficient... it still seems more likely that what you're seeing is standard anerobic denitrification occuring in low O2 pockets in your filter medium. Or possibly it could just be due to nitrogen uptake by a bloom of heterotrophic bacteria that is typical in new aquariums and you'll see it again later after they die down.... biology's not really my thing though). However, There is absolutely no evidence that I can find that your bacterial colony could possibly convert your ammonia or nitrite into safe forms outside the standard nitrogen cycle (and chemistry is a lot more my thing... so I feel pretty comfortable with that statement). Sort of the reverse, actually. Bacteria have a really high ammonia/nitrite tolerance; they wouldn't be interested in expending energy converting it into something else even if it were possible.



cgjedi said:


> He's given me info on his tanks that have been set up this way for a long time and are healthy and have similar water chemistry. So I'm not being "unethical" at all.


I doubt an established tank would have your level of nitrite; so that's probably not quite the same water chemistry. It is unethical to deliberately expose animals to conditions that might hurt them unnecessarily. As I've said, you won't prove anything (even if they appear fine, that could just be because they're nitrite tolerant rather than some property of your bacterial colony. If they die, it might have been that they would have died anyway... nothing is proved either way); so you're risking damage to those fish for no reason. Can't say I approve.



cgjedi said:


> This product has been around for more than 10 years, has lots of people who keep healthy fish systems


Meh, testimonials aren't really all that great of an information source; people swear by all kinds of useless junk. It's possible they did a fish-in cycle and never noticed (you can get away with a lot if you're lucky... ammonia isn't particuarly toxic below pH 7.6 or so and nitrite poisoning isn't as common as you'd think... still not good for the fish, but they'd likey survive if you didn't do anything too dumb). Once the tank is established it doesn't matter how it was cycled. Actually, in an established tank what bacteria you seeded it with is probably irrelevant anyway. A bio filter is an intensely competetative environment with limited and variable resources; only the best adapted bacteria will survive. It's unlikely that a bunch of soil bacteria you bought off the internet will be the best equipped to deal with the specific conditions inside your filter. It's one of the problems with bottled bacteria; the ecosystem is very complicated and can change very quickly. It's hard to recreate using something from a tin.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for your opinions. Noted. I choose not to argue with you. You obviously can not be swayed even in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Please consider this a request to no longer comment in this thread.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Yes. I think that's probably best. It seems to have gotten a little personal. Which is a shame, really; a good debate is by far the best way to learn. I've got a lot out of our discussion. I'm sorry I've offended you.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*RS Day 21*
pH 6.6
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 1-2 ppm  
Nitrite 0.1-0.5 ppm
Nitrate 2-5 ppm

I don't test the water every day. When I put the fish in, the 10-15 ppm Nitrite was probably quite a bit less already since today it is only 0.1-0.5. The fish are fine, btw.

I've removed the Biocubes. I took out the extra aeration of the air stone.

It's not just that toxic ammonia has stayed at 0 ppm through out this whole time, but the amount of nitrogen compounds (the original fishless ammonia and the rotting shrimp) has been removed from the system *without water changes*. This is not possible with the "usual" bacteria.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*RS Day 23*
pH 6.8
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 0.2 ppm  
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 2-5 ppm

*RS Day 28*
pH 6.8
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 0.1 ppm  
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 2-5 ppm

This week has shown that the system has kept stable water chemistry. The white clouds are fine. Another tank is now home to 5 cherry shrimp (live ones this time).


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

The water quality continues to be stable with the Right Now bacteria. Not having to do water changes because of it. Just water changes to get rid of the blue/green algae that has shown up because of the nitrate spike when I tested out the system.

In the meantime, the white clouds have spawned and I have 3 fry. Also one of the cherry shrimp has berried and am expecting around 25-30 of those any day. I have also added 6 Celebes rainbow and 6 Forktail rainbow. Couldn't resist those fish.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Noticed another 2 of the cherry shrimp have berried. I guess the first one wasn't as far along as I thought. I've read to look out for the black dots (of their eyes) to show up as an indicator that they will hatch soon. No black dots yet.

If everything works, from 5 shrimp to 60+ is going to be one busy tank. All they have to eat is algae. I put in a small blanched piece of carrot and they just let it sit there. I've given 3 fish flakes - yes, just 3 in 4 weeks.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

So exactly 30 days from the date I first saw the berried shrimp, there are a bunch of baby shrimp roaming around. Very cool. I don't know if it's coincidence but this is about a day after I did a partial water change. Also, another shrimp molted and now is berried as well right after the water change.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I was expecting the baby shrimp to all hatch around the same time. I think it happened over a few days. I now notice quite a variability in sizes. Some are about twice as big as others.

The first cherry shrimp death. For a few days I noticed one of the original females turned a dark shade of brownish brick red. Then yesterday she died. I haven't read about this kind of thing happening. Does anyone have info about this?

There are a few carbon rili shrimp that have berried. Expecting some of those shrimp hatching in a few weeks. I notice these shrimp are quite a bit more active than the cherry shrimp.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

It's been a while since I updated this log. The tanks continue to be stable and the plants have really grown a lot over the past months.

Water readings after 1.5 weeks since last water change:
pH 7.2
temp 68 F
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 1-2 ppm  
Nitrite 0.0 ppm
Nitrate 2-5 ppm

However, the shrimp haven't done well for some reason. After an initial bunch of berried shrimp, they have not done anything for the last several months. If anyone could help me out with some suggestions, that would be great.


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## CRS Fan (Apr 21, 2010)

I would suggest increasing the temperature to 72-73, and doing a 50% water change to induce breeding within your shrimp colony. Ensure you are using some type of calcium/magnesium based buffer to assist with moulting. I have found that Pseudomogil type rainbows are avid shrimplet hunters and can spook berried females unless the tank is well stocked with plants (mosses or Subwassertang) as a hideout for succesptible shrimp/shrimplets.

Best regards,

Stuart


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

I agree with CRS Fan.

Your reading for ammonium is also a bit weird (it's supposed to be zero in a cycled tank). Could be a bad reading (try it with another test kit?); but if it's not then that might also be causing issues (1-2 ppm is in the range of concern for long term exposure. Shrimp in particular are sensitive to that sort of thing).


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions. Appreciate it. As to water readings, Rockman, if you check the first page of the this log, you'll remember that you commented on this system when I was setting it up. I have used the Right Now bacteria as an alternative to the usual nitrogen cycle. So actually, these results are expected and are normal since I've set the system up. This ammonium is the reading of how much non-toxic ammonia is present.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

cgjedi said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Appreciate it. As to water readings, Rockman, if you check the first page of the this log, you'll remember that you commented on this system when I was setting it up. I have used the Right Now bacteria as an alternative to the usual nitrogen cycle. So actually, these results are expected and are normal since I've set the system up. This ammonium is the reading of how much non-toxic ammonia is present.


Oh right... you're that guy. Well, thirsty horses and all that. Best of luck.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks. But luck not really needed - just some science and an open mind. This log has shown that the Right Now bacteria system is a successful method - I've had fish and shrimp spawn during the past year. 

I tested the water hardness and I think that might indeed be the issue since the readings are very low.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Plant growth update:

If you check my thread on building the 8 Tank Shrimp Rack(http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/diy-area-18/diy-overflow-shrimp-rack-70562/) I go into detail about the different types of oil-absorbing clay I used for the substrate. Basically I tried some from 3 sources: Napa Auto, Lordco and Princess Auto. There were 2 layers. The bottom half was a 50:50 mix of clay and worm castings. Then the top half was just a clay layer.

I planted low to medium light plants. The shop lights I'm using have a metal finish for light reflection. They are on a cycle of 6 hours on, 6 off, 6 on and 6 off. This was a recommendation to keep the CO2 levels more even and to discourage algae growth. I can say that this seems to have been accurate.

I did not notice any difference in growth among the 3 types of clay - they all worked great. Once the roots found the worm casting layer, they really took off. This is the growth after a year. I did little pruning or rearranging. You can see the long roots going into the worm casting layer.









3 of the 8 tanks showing newly planted from Feb. 2014


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Here is the growth a year later from Jan 2015:


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Mating in the morning. I was just checking my shrimp this morning and noticed a large female with an obvious yellow saddle going a bit bonkers. She was zooming through the tank not interested in grazing but looking for something. At the front of the tank was a smaller male just hanging out. I watched as the female saw the male and they interlocked antennae for a bit. Suddenly the male jumped back but came back right away since the female didn't move away. The male came along side her facing the same direction then mounted her back around where her saddle was. He sat there for about 15 seconds and turned a noticeably darker shade of brown. Then he got off and she swam away and stopped her zooming. I will be checking to see if she is berried very shortly.


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## JTang (Apr 21, 2010)

Your shrimp factory has been set up for over a year now. Any shrimps for sale? . Post some pictures...


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## eternity302 (Apr 22, 2010)

JTang said:


> Your shrimp factory has been set up for over a year now. Any shrimps for sale? . Post some pictures...


I've been following this like you =)


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Updates*

It is quite a while since I updated this log. It's time to talk about some successes and failures. I've been doing a lot of research and learning along the way and have come across some things that haven't been discussed on this forum - which is surprising to me.

I originally called this thread "8 Tank Shrimp Rack" since that was what I wanted to focus on. And for a year that is what I did - even though I had a couple of tanks with some Celebes Rainbows (love those fish). The water chemistry was stable throughout. Much of the previous posts in the log outlined my experience with RightNow bacteria. There was much skepticism with the water quality readings I was getting even though they are perfectly normal with these particular bacteria. As a reminder, the water was always high in ammonium (NH4+). But ammonia (NH3) and nitrite were always zero. I had a low level of nitrate - which was fine for the massive plant growth. The usual test kits for ammonia do not make a distinction between the two types of ammonia and you can never tell if the killer NH3 is high or if the benign NH4+ is high. I use the Seachem test kit which does test for both.

I found another corroboration for this fact in water chemistry. It's on the Poly-Filter FAQ. (POLY-BIO-MARINE, Inc.)



> The Poly-Filter® sorbs ammonia (NH3) > 0.10mg/L which only occurs above pH 7.5 range. Below 7.0 pH mainly ammonium ions (NH4+) are produced which are nontoxic and nonsorbable by Poly-Filter®.


I'll talk about Poly-Filter later on but this company quite clearly states that ammonium is nontoxic to fish/invertebrates. The RightNow bacteria work by keeping all NH3 converted to ammonium and all nitrites converted to nitrates - in all pH ranges. And that has been my experience even to now.

Even so, I couldn't get the hang of keeping shrimp. Maybe I wasn't feeding them correctly. Maybe the water hardness wasn't enough. But they slowly stopped breeding and then started dying off. The fish were fine.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

The thing that started giving me grief was the whole loop overflow system I had built. I had done a lot of testing before setting up all 8x 10 gallons to the sump. The siphon never failed in the 2 weeks while it was tested. I built the system and tuned each overflow and it was working great for a while. Then I started getting failures in the siphon after a few days. I could usually catch it because I had used clear tube to monitor the air collecting so there weren't many floods. However, one is too much. I couldn't fix the system no matter what I did. I even drilled a hole at the top of the clear tube and installed a checkvalve to pump out the air daily. But it became a pain in maintenance.

So I made the decision to scrap the overflow system.

I decided to convert all the tanks to use corner matten filters. (Cornerfilter - SWISSTROPICALS) . I bought a great air pump from Jehmco. Oh, the other thing about the sump system is that it was very inefficient with electricity. Since I had the heater in the sump, I had to increase the water temperature to get the right temperature by the time it reached the bottom level of tanks. It's been much better to get heaters for each tank (when on sale).

It's been a year since I converted all the tanks and the system has been a dream. I'm still using the RightNow bacteria method and water chemistry was just as before.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

I read this journal all in one sitting and found it fascinating. Thank you for posting in such detail.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*The tale of blue-green algae (cyanobacteria)*

As I mentioned, this rack has 8x 10 gallons. In a couple of tanks I housed the rainbows. In 4 other tanks I put some Apistogramma ortegai. There were 2 female and 2 male. Since the males were adults, they each had to have their own tank. I put them in tanks back to back and they constantly tried to attack each other through the glass - so I know they wouldn't have done well in a tank together. The females were fine in a tank together by themselves.

I started including bloodworms as part of their diet. I have to mention that I've been keeping fish for years and have never used bloodworms before. I chose the Hikari frozen ones since they say they are packed in pure water - not using phosphates. I thought I had my bases covered...

Here's the tank in May.








Over the next few month I started noticing some algae build up. Ok, more water changes needed. Maybe less food. Give it some time to take effect. It kept getting worse in those tanks. The other 4 tanks were still good. No noticeable algae.

Well, I have to say I let it go too long before doing anything about it. Same tank.








I just couldn't understand what had gone wrong in half the tanks. I was convinced it couldn't possibly be phosphate - I've never had to deal with that in any of my previous tanks - ever. But then it dawned on me- I'm using sponge filters - there is no chemical filtration taking place. I had always used HOB or cannister filters before. So out came the phosphate test kit.

This tank (Tank 1)
TDS 65
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 3-4 ppm  
Nitrite 0.0 ppm
Nitrate 0.4 ppm
Phosphate > 2.5-3.0

Another cichlid tank (Tank 8)
TDS 115
Ammonia 0.0 ppm
Ammonium 2-3 ppm  
Nitrite 0.0 ppm
Nitrate 0.5 ppm
Phosphate 1.0

Tank with no algae and very happy fish (Tank 7)
TDS 120
Ammonia trace ppm
Ammonium 4 ppm  
Nitrite 0.0 ppm
Nitrate 0.0 ppm
Phosphate 0.0

Well, what do you know. The cyanobacteria was only in the tanks with high levels of phosphate. And I thought Hikari brand would not raise phosphates. That's the only difference between the tanks. I use the same other fish food in all the tanks.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I had to deal with this crazy cyanobacteria in 4 tanks before it took over everything. Lots of research later and after reading through much contradictory opinions I decided on testing 2 different methods. In one tank I put 2 layers of black garbage bag as a blackout for the tank. I waited 4 days. It was supposed to starve it of the light for photosynthesis. I took the bags off and.... there was NO difference. None.

With the second tank, I dosed hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) at 2 tbsp per 10 gallons. I let it circulate for half an hour (the One-Two Punch blog says to wait only 15 minutes). There were lots of oxygen bubbles from the algae. Then I did a 20% water change. I waited a few days (while I waited for the blackout method in the other tank). Maybe a little died off - but not much at all.

This was before I realized I had a phosphate problem and checked the water. So I would imagine if the phosphates would have been dealt with first and THEN these methods tried, there might be more success. In any case, I did some more researching and came across the Chemiclean product. I decided to try that in the two tanks.

I put in the specified dose in each tank. The instructions mention to use an airstone since the bacteria/enzymes in the product use up oxygen as it munches on the cyano. I again tried an experiment - I put an airstone in only one tank. I had moved the fish from both of these tanks so there was nothing that would be affected by low oxygen levels.

According to user reviews, some had noticed the cyano "go away" after 24 hours. The product says it can take up to 48 hours. The picture in the previous post is the tank after 30 hours. That was the one *without *the airstone. Here it is after 60 hours.








Still lots of it around. But there is noticeable brown in the thicker patches and it seems to be thinning on the tank glass. In the tank *with *the airstone, no difference. Nothing.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

After finally testing the water for phosphate, I found that's probably the issue. I was also reading "The Planted Tank" and the author states that iron can also lead to high cyano in tanks. Hmmm.... bloodworms == iron? I'm not sure about that. But I do know that the phosphate is much much too high.

Again, after much research I cam across some very interesting information about dealing with phosphates. Supposedly, freshwater aquaria usually should not have issues with phosphate. Most of the discussions relate to marine aquaria. There's lots of products out there for ponds which notoriously have blue-green algae issues. I came across this great thread -it used a method that no one on this forum has discussed. (Lanthanum chloride - Reef Central Online Community). If you have several hours to read through 50+ pages, it's very worthwhile.

Basically, there is a mineral - lanthanum chloride - that when exposed to phosphate in water will form a white substance and lock up the phosphate. You don't want to add this directly to the water column because the tank will become cloudy and could harm the gills of fish. However, there are products out there (who don't list lanthanum but are) who say to pour it directly into the tank. Instead, the thread author uses a pool cleaner called SeaKlear, dilutes it heavily, and sets up a drip system over several hours/days. As the lanthanum slowly drips into the sump, he uses a 5 or 10 micron filter sock to catch the precipitate as it slowly settles by gravity. This will lower the phosphate levels to almost zero after a couple of days. You don't want absolute zero phosphate since living things do need a small amount.

Very interesting stuff. Large aquariums all over the world use this method to keep their display tank clean of algae. But with smaller tanks, this is probably not worth the effort.

There are a dizzying array of biopellets, zorb balls, iron based resin that are all supposed to get rid of phosphate as well. Then I came across the filter pads.

There is a great sounding product called Poly-Filter (POLY-BIO-MARINE, Inc.) which absorbs ammonia, nitrite and phosphate and other chemicals. It was originally invented for the medical field. It has great reviews. It seems to be much more expensive than other pads but when considering all it does, it seems worth it. Again, there is no one on this forum who has mentioned it. But that might be because I can't find a source of it here in Vancouver. And the stores I called, have never heard of it before.

But there are a couple of other phosphate absorbing pads I found. One is by Acurel and the other by AquaGlobe. Basically they are green pads in 12"x10" sheets that you cut to size and stick in your filter. I bought both to try out and cut a thin strip to stick behind the corner sponge.

Tank 1 
Phosphate > 2.5-3.0

After 12 hours:
Tank 1
Phosphate 1.0

It seems like I will have my phosphate under control now. But I will have to remove the pads after a few days since I don't want to have zero phosphate in the tanks. I hope this will starve out the cyano and I'll see some clean tanks soon.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

After 24 hours:
Tank 1 
Phosphate 1.0

After 36 hours:
Tank 1 
Phosphate 1.0

Tank 8
Phosphate 0.5 
 
It would seem a 1-1/2" x 10" strip of the phosphate pad in 10 gallons will absorb 1.0-1.5 ppm of phosphate (in my water). Tank 1 looks like the pad is saturated and I changed it out with a new strip and will test again in 12 hours.

After 3 1/2 days of the Chemiclean in Tank 1, the cyano continues to slowly get less. The tank glass is noticeably cleaner in spots. But it's no where near an instant thing like the reviewers make it out to be.
Tank 8 still has no noticeable change. After talking with Boyd Enterprises (the maker of Chemiclean) they too have instances in their tests where similar tank setups will behave differently right next to each other. He says often 2 or even 3 doses of the product are needed in order to see results. In Tank 8 I added another dose and removed the airstone - hopefully there are some improvements.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

After 48 hours and 12 hours after replacing pad:
Tank 1 
Phosphate 0.5-0.6

This now confirms some results between the two different brands of phosphate pad I'm using. The first is made by Acurel and is 18" x 10". The second is made by AquaGlobe and is 30" x 10" and is slightly more expensive than Acurel. At first it would seem that AquaGlobe is the better deal - especially because the package advertises in bold letters *"60% more. Compare cost and quality".*

Ok. I did compare cost and quality. Even though Acurel has less surface area, the density of the pad is much thicker than AquaGlobe - maybe even twice as dense. Does this affect the performance of the product? Common sense would say yes.

My results confirm it. The first pad I put in Tank 1 was a 1-1/2" x 10" strip of the Acurel pad. It absorbed 1.5-2.0 ppm of phosphate from 10 gallons in 12 hours. I replaced the pad with 1-1/2" x 10" strip of the AquaGlobe. It absorbed 0.5 ppm of phosphate from 10 gallons in 12 hours.

Moral of the story: more is not always better.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Almost 200 views in 2 days and only one person has a comment?  I've presented so much new material here that no one has yet discussed on this forum.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Just saw this thread. Thanks for posting your results on the Phosphate absorbing pads. I guess Acurel is the way to go. I've been using a liquid additive called FozGuard and it works great on eliminating and binding phosphate in sw tanks. I think its good for fw too, but not sure about shrimp. I know people are using it in sw with marine shrimp present and no issues.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I tried to look up FozGuard and couldn't find anything. Who makes it? Does it cloud your water? Do you know the main ingredient?


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Oops, my bad. Foz Down.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks. Looked up the product and they don't say what's in it. But judging by the "expert" mode of dripping it in slowly into a 5 micron sock, I would guess it's lanthanum based.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

24 hours after replacing pads:
Tank 1 
Phosphate 0.5

Tank 8
Phosphate 0.1


-----------------
The cyano in Tank 1 continues to die off. The front glass is noticeably cleaner and the patches on some leaves I was monitoring have all turned brown. This tank had only 1 treatment of Chemiclean, no water change after 48 hours and no airstone.

The cyano in Tank 8 still shows no change. Actually the plant stems and tank wall I was monitoring have slightly increased. This is 48 hours after a second treatment of Chemiclean. The first treatment had airstone and the second didn't.

I decided to test Tank 2 which does not have a cyano outbreak or high phosphate - just a few small areas on some leaves of the fully planted tank. After 48 hours, the cyano has actually increased slightly.

Verdict: I'm disappointed with the product. Less than 50% success is not worth the money. Yes, it does seem to work but there are variables at play that are not dealt with in their instructions. Maybe marine tank results are better but with my freshwater setup, it's a thumbs down product.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*More about Cyanobacteria issues*

When you read about cyanobacteria and what to do about it, there are many opinions. Some things work for people that don't work for others. As I wrote previously, the maker of Chemiclean has erratic results using their own product. I didn't get much of an explanation as to why - just a recommendation to keep applying the product until it works for me. I'd rather try to determine the issue and come to a solution. That's what some supposed experts say as well; treat the immediate problem and then find out the source of the problem. But, that's where the discussion ends - they don't continue to explain what the problem is. And what's worse, most of the companies that produce these quick fixes don't give any indication of what their product actually is. Chemiclean for instance nowhere states what's in the product and so there are many people that assume it's just a bunch of chemicals based on the name. But it's actually a bacteria.

No matter if you use one of these quick fix products, black out the tank or dose with H2O2, the next step is always to do a water change. Now that makes sense because there is dead cyano around (if you're lucky) and you want to get rid of this. Most likely the cause of the initial outbreak is high levels of phosphate and depending on how much water is replaced, that also affects the phosphate levels in the tank. But you usually have to do multiple doses because the cyano comes back. Maybe it's obvious, but doing a water change hasn't actually changed the level of phosphate in the tank very much. That's why the cyano comes back - it still has a food source. When you are doing multiple doses and then water changes - it's the multiple water changes that is actually going to make the biggest difference to finally get the phosphate level back to low levels. No one tells you this.

Now this assumes you do not have a fancy gadget like a phosphate reactor or a protein skimmer already. That seems to be why Chemiclean works so fast on the usual marine tank setup and not the usual fresh water tank. The quick fix products based on bacteria work by digesting the cyano and multiplying rapidly (that's why the oxygen levels go down in the tank). The phosphate is used up as part of the construction of DNA in bacteria cells. The phosphate didn't actually disappear; it's just in another form. When the bacteria die and the cells decompose, the phosphate will again be around in the tank for more cyano. It's the protein skimmer that is scrubbing this bacteria along with the locked up phosphate from the tank. Or it's the phosphate reactor removing the phosphate that's been freed up by the dead cyano or the dying bacteria. Thinking through the process, this might seem obvious - but again, this is not really discussed anywhere that I've seen.

Since the usual freshwater tank setup does not have this fancy equipment, the bacteria, blackout or H2O2 dosing will work for a while. But something additional needs to be done. A phosphate removing resin (aluminum oxide, GFO) or lanthanum chloride dosing or a phosphate pad needs to be added. This will ultimately remove the levels of phosphate that are causing the symptom of of the problem, the cyano. But since living organisms need phosphate (remember it's a component of all DNA), you can't leave these phosphate removers in continually or you have dose the products so a small amount of phosphate is not removed.

Dr. Tim's Aquatics also makes a bacteria "quick fix" for cyano. They are the only company I contacted who truly understand the problem and solution. Here is their reply to me:


> Hello.
> 
> Thanks for the insightful question! Many 'experts' don't get this point.
> 
> ...


The bacteria products seem like a good solution to quickly get rid of the unsightly cyano. That is, as long as it is quick - supposedly within 48 hours. That did not work for me and I think I wasted my money. If I had a protein skimmer, it probably would work as fast as they say. But I don't.

Once I realized the underlying process, I put some phosphate pads behind my sponge filter to lower the phosphate levels. Then I siphoned out the cyano with a larger water change. I have not seen any cyano since - even in the stubborn tank (several days now). The sponge filter is a great biological and mechanical filter. But it does not do a thing for chemical filtration (phosphate). So I'm going to be including a monthly routine of putting in a small amount of phosphate pad just for one day to remove the buildup of phosphate.


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## waynet (Apr 22, 2010)

Very nice.


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## waynet (Apr 22, 2010)

Try raise some Sulawesi shrimps. I had a variety of Sulawesi shrimps before. They were breeding. But I ran out of algae for them to eat. My tank couldn't produce enough algae. I tried feeding them all kinds of shrimp food. They weren't eating the food I fed them. I thought it was the water issue so I started changing water. That eventually killed them all. It was such lost. I didn't want to think about it. One day if I can afford a basement, I will try again.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Cyanobacteria update*

After another week which had a regular water change, none of my tanks have any signs of cyanobacteria any more. Super happy - obviously. In my case, I've proven that phosphate level was the problem.

I also sent an update email to the maker of Chemiclean showing them my picture evidence and giving them my opinion and my theory that theirs is a bacteria based product. He responded totally differently from Dr. Tim's email. First, he said there are so many variables that I should not assume it was phosphate that was the issue. Second, he said the product is not bacteria based. Actually, he said no one except the heads of the company know exactly what the product is - so he's in the dark about what it is too. Wow! Third, he said he is very surprised it was not showing results in fresh water tanks and that a protein skimmer makes absolutely no difference with the product. And lastly, he offered to send me some of the company product to make up for my disappointment with their product - which I appreciate. Now I'm not saying their product is junk because reviewers do say it does work. But as I showed, there are some things that are unclear as to how best to use the product and it looks like their own customer support is not even able to give helpful (accurate) advice.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Installing glass tops for the tanks.*

I've had covers on my rack of 10 gallons for a while now. I needed a clear material for the shop lights hanging directly above. I used clear corrugated panels cut to size. This was an ok solution and kept the fish in the tank and allowed the proper light to get through for the plants. But it didn't do much for water evaporation. But it was cheap enough.

























But I needed to finally do something different. The water loss was too much. And I'm getting some killifish soon. They are known to be jumpers - and through any small opening. So a tight fitting top was essential. I came across some great threads in forums about sliding glass tops. Most of them said to go to Lowe's and get them to cut plate glass to the proper size. I called a local company (The Glassmen) for an estimate instead and the prices were very reasonable and he cut the panels super quickly.

I have Matten corner filters in the tanks so I needed a diagonal cut in one panel to accommodate that. For the sliding track, I went to Rona and picked up some corner moulding (item #013080901). Lowes and Home Depot sell similar stuff. It all went together really easily. I glued some knobs I had lying around on the glass and it works great. I highly recommend this aquarium top design.


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## dino (Aug 29, 2011)

next time we should drill you aquariums so you don't have to worry about your overflows


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Blue Star Endlers*

Finally found a source for some Blue Star Endlers - still rare to the hobby having only been discovered in the wild in 2012. One male and three females as the start of the colony.





















And less than 2 weeks later already there are 4 fry - from females that hardly even looked gravid.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*...and nearby...*

In one of the other tanks, a recent purchase of a pair of Kribensis have had a clutch. She laid about 150 eggs and I thought what am I going to do with 150 kribs? 








But after 2 days, all the eggs were gone - probably eaten. I thought that was the end of it until the next round of spawning. But about 1 1/2 weeks later I noticed a bunch of fry in the tank. Where did they come from? Only 14 of them.








I think these Kribs are absolutely stunning. I have not seen any males before with a red band in the dorsal and tail fins. And the female has a lot of spots going on in her dorsal fin.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Amethyst Endler*

After a year, my efforts at locking down a new endler strain continue. They are metallic orange and purple with a bit of snakeskin pattern going on in the tail. They don't stand still long enough for pictures, lol.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Blue Star Endler update*

After 8 weeks, 2 of the 4 first fry are colouring up. That's a 50:50 ratio of male to female - interesting. The tank is filling up with more fry. The females are quite young and they are still ramping up to their maximum. Just 2 days ago, there was the first batch of more than 20 new fry.


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## geealexg (Jan 16, 2015)

Nice endlers! Would love to buy some or trade my other endler variants with you someday.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

*Cyanobacteria success*

I found another way to clobber cyanobacteria (blue-green algae). I have a 20 gallon with a HOB filter and a moderate number of plants. I have had cyanobacteria problems with it for over a year. I have tried a phosphate removing pad (described above) which seemed to reduce it for a while. That method did work to completely kill it in some other of my tanks. But this 20 gallon was more persistent.

After some research I bought Seachem Purigen and placed some in a bag in the HOB filter. Right away I noticed the water was sparkling clean. After about 2 weeks I noticed quite a bit less algae. And after a month, it was completely eradicated from the glass and all the plants. I was really shocked.

I removed the Purigen and even after another month, no algae has shown up. The only problem is that there is so little other green algae that my snails have nothing to eat and many have died off.

Just another thing to try which I haven't seen described elsewhere.


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