# First ADA adventure



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks to VAHS, Pat(mykiss), Joseph (Miyabi), Aquaflora, and many others who have generously donated products and their time to make the planted tank contest possible, me and my little girl were very fortunate to have this wonderful opportunity to lay our hands on our first ADA tank.

My daughter wanted to "make this right" so she read a lot and looked at a lot of ADA layouts. We have been holding off until she has decided on what she wants.

Eventually she has decided on trying an iwagumi layout. This is our first attempt at iwagumi. We have gone through a lot of layouts and watched a lot of videos together regarding iwagumi.

She wanted something less busy and more simple, a more elegant approach to focus on the layout of the rocks rather than the plants.

I have a lot of dragon stones from our last tanks. So, we scrubbed off all the dirts and what not, soaked them over night, and here is a little photo account of what we have done so far.

Our method to prepare the tank is a bit unorthodox I know. All you experienced planted tank gurus are likely going to think "what the..." but this is what we want to try, an experiment of sort.

The little hand you see in the picture belongs to my little girl, who is now 10 years old.  She has been very motivated so I just let her set the tank up while I took pictures. The layout was something we have decided after looking at many pictures and videos. We tried many layouts on a tray filled with sand, came up with what we liked, then did a drawing, taped it to the wall and sort of just follow that as we laid the rocks down.

I will go pick up 3 tubs of plants later on today from Pat, generously donated by Aquaflora (thanks) and will try our first dry start on the carpet either tonight or tomorrow.

So here we go:

This is..well, the tank. ADA Mini-L, about 18" wide, about 8.3 gallon.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

More pictures here:


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

More pictures here:

We could hear a lot of sound coming out from the rocks at this point, like firecrakers, it is kind of cool.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Mask tape the 1/3 line of the tank.



















This is to be poured after the rocks are placed.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

We left this last night and decided to sleep on it. Sometimes things could look very differently the next morning.LOL
Basiaclly this is what our first iwagumi looks like.









We sprayed and moist the tank this morning afte rmaking some minor changes. It is getting ready for the plants, which are yet to be picked up from Pat.


----------



## Bien Lim (Apr 21, 2010)

Looking good already


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks Bien
We are thinking of dry starting glosso in the front and some L Repen in the back, but have never tried dry started before...so something unexpected is likely to happen. LOL. 
Thinking of putting a glass cover on top of the tank with a light fixture and just spray and keep it moist until the glosso has rooted. The ludwigia repen probably can be grown after the flood but may as well do it now?


----------



## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Looks great. What is it that you put under the substrate?


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Nice! I'll be following this journal closely! Good job, great equipment!


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks. 
Actually speaking of equipment I will just be using a canopy with 2 bulbs from dollarama for the dry start for now. I have been looking for some light but have not really decided.
We have not decided on filter yet. I have an eheim but this tank is so small the intake of the eheim is going to almost touch the substrate...also have a HOB which I may end up using. The plan is to grow the carpet till roots are well developed before trying to worry about filter and such. I will likely just rest a 10 gallon canopy with 2 CF bulbs on a glass cover while doing my dry start..for now..hope it works.


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Are you planning on using CO2? Which Carpet plant are you going with? HC 'Cuba'?
If you're not going to use CO2 you might notice your cuba melt a bit after you flood it. 
Great looking tank though. Wish I had ADA rimless!


----------



## crimper (Oct 20, 2010)

Looking great already, keep it coming.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

TheBigCheese said:


> Are you planning on using CO2? Which Carpet plant are you going with? HC 'Cuba'?
> If you're not going to use CO2 you might notice your cuba melt a bit after you flood it.
> Great looking tank though. Wish I had ADA rimless!


Thanks a lot for the advice.
Yes, I am doing HC dry start.
I have pressurized Co2. It is a bit overkill, a 10lb tank for a little tank like this...LOL.
Do you just put the HC on the substrate and then press it down? Any trick of getting them to root very nicely?


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Awesome! Excited to hear you are going to use CO2! I have no doubts you'll make a great lawn now! 
When I've planted HC I use tweezers, and plant small clumps. a couple CM apart making sure you plant
a bit of it into the substrate. I'm sure you could just lay it on and it'll root itself but planting it I find 
roots faster. Main thing, trim it often and trim it low or else it'll uproot, especially when its planted in 
such a large area. You'll do great. Looking forward to seeing this setup grow! Keep the pictures coming.

Great video that explains what I just mentioned:


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for the video...I kind of did it the same way but I did not push the roots really deep into the soil. I hope they are okay.
Here are some pictures.








































I should get my new ligth tube tomorrow so I can have more light...right now it is just a 10 gallon canopy.
Spraying...spraying and spraying...
The waiting game begins....


----------



## blurry (May 10, 2010)

Im liking ur setup hope to see it step by step.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Will keep spraying and wait for may be a few weeks before filling with water
First time trying HC, so far so good but you never know...LOL
Light is on 10-12 hours daily.
I told my daughter not to rush it and even after the flood not to put any fish on there for a while as we will crack up the Co2 to make sure the HC are rooted well first. 
Planning on dosing a bit of excel to help keep the algae away in the beginning of the flood...but anyway..
Any recommedation on dry starting HC and flooding afterward will be appreciated...
Hope we wont make a big mess...*fingers crossed*


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

As the other poster said, make sure it's nice and deeply planted, and trim it often, or you'll end up with a floating mess. I had to restart the carpet in half of my ADA because it grew too thick and floated up when it started pearling.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks Gary
I will make sure I trim them often.
During the dry start process is there anything ricky I should pay attention to?
Is it okay to water the soil as well?


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Awesome!! This tank is going to look soo good!
Did you cover the top of the tank with cellophane? 
Should keep the moisture in so you dont have to spray so often.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

As BigCheese said, cover the top to keep it moist and the air humid in there. No real need to water the soil if you do this. Keep an eye out for mould since you're keeping it damp, and also BGA. A bit of diluted Excel will take of that if you get it (10:1 water to Excel).


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for reminding me of that.
I have a glass cover that was meant for a 20" 10 gallon tank. This tank si 18" long so it is more than enough. I place the glass cover on then I put the light canopy on top.
Do they need LOTS of light, do you think 13W CFL bulbs (6500K) x 2 from the canopy is enough?
I will dliulte an Excel solution to mosit the plants then thank you. Shoudl I add any iron or any ferts in the solution as well?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The amount of light depends on what you're trying to do. Most people want to flood the tank ASAP so more light = faster growth, and in an emersed setup you don't have to deal with algae as long as you don't flood the soil (very moist, but no visible water). 2x13w CFL should be enough. Are they hanging straight down or are you using the tank canopy so they are sideways? Straight down would mean more light available.

You're ADA AS I think? Do not dose anything. The ADA leaches lots of ammonia in the beginning and everything should be covered for nutrients.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Yes Gary I am using ADA...the canopy is flat on top of the tank. I found some cheapo canopy with flourscent light tubes that I am putting around the tank standing up as I dont want any HC to be under shadow cast by the rock if the light is only coming from above. I got those light fixutre for a buck each. Here is a pi of the set up, dont laugh. LOL










I just received a power compact light tube from JL for a Coralife light fixture I have had. It is a 28W, 6700L Power compact fixture at 20". I think I might use that for this tank. But I am kind of thinking of going LED as well. I am not really big on getting lots of light right now. Too much light is probably going to drive me crazy. LOL. I just want everything to be balanced. It is a small and shallow tank after all.. I will think about this, I still have time.

Anyway, this is an updated picture.


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Whoa, looking good! Did you put more in there!? It couldn't have filled in that fast! haha.
I'd make sure those plugs are really buried or like someone else said it'll just float up when it's flooded. 
You'll have to really make sure they've all formed deep roots.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

O yes I put in a bit more. I have no more left now.
It will not root into the soil once it is established?
I though the roots will just find their ways into the soil.LOL Shoudl to take them out and re-do?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Jam them in there and then just use tweezers to tease them back out slightly. They root, but the root systems are not huge so when the clump gets thick enough the pearling uproots them.

I think you got plenty of light. You've seen my ADA jorunal right? I'm using this AquaRay AquaHabitats Mini LED (Model 400) with a single bracket on mine. Might not work as well yours as mine is a cube while yours is rectangular.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Jam them in there and then just use tweezers to tease them back out slightly. They root, but the root systems are not huge so when the clump gets thick enough the pearling uproots them.
> 
> I think you got plenty of light. You've seen my ADA jorunal right? I'm using this AquaRay AquaHabitats Mini LED (Model 400) with a single bracket on mine. Might not work as well yours as mine is a cube while yours is rectangular.


That light looks very sleek.
I have pushed them a bit into the sediment but they are quite thick kind of feel like they are bouncing back as they were pushed...
Think I will leave them for a bit to see how they do. They seem to be growing taller...not sure if it was just my wishful thinking...hahaha
Do people trim their HC before they flood the tank?
I cannot find any refernece regarding this?
I am in no rush to flood the tank...so is it like the longer I leave them the longer and deeper the roots will grow?
Is ther egoing ot be any problem of leaving them too long before the flood?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

No one that I know of trims the HC before flooding as the point is for lateral coverage, and the dry start seems to get the most lateral coverage the quickest. I left mine for 3 weeks before I couldn't stand it and flooded it, but I know people who waited 2 months for a full lawn. I don't think it'll grow nearly as thick as there's no incentive to grow up, nor is there structural support for it to. It'll all grow laterally. I think it'll be rooted more firmly if you leave it longer, but it's just not a deep root feeding plant in general. It grows just as well or better floating so I think it might even prefer to float. As long as you keep it moist, you should be able to grow it emersed indefinitely, as mine were from Aqua Flora which was grown emersed. But keep in mind that there is a die-off period when you transition from emersed to immersed so the more emersed you have, the more die-off you may get (but not necessarily). Ideally, you want the carpet thinly spread out during the emersed phase to hold the whole scape together and then flood it once it's rooted and the coverage is good and then pump it full of CO2 before you add fish to get it going well. This will also take care of the ammonia leaching that is prevalent in the beginning with ADA AS. If you haven't read Francis Xavier's journal on plantedtank.net (I linked it to another person's thread, maybe yours even) then you should do so, so that you know what's coming during the cycling of the ADA AS and also the transition from emersed to immersed.


----------



## Emily (May 4, 2010)

Looks fantastic! I was glad you guys won that tank and I really look forward to seeing the direction you and your daughter take with this one. Based off your VAHS tank submission I have no doubts that this one will look beautiful... Has she any idea what she wants to stock it with yet? I would be so excited and brainstorming like crazy!


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Hi Emily,
Thank you for your kind words. She is just busy spraying the HC to keep them wet right now. She knows it will be a while before she can fill it with anything.
She really likes the corydoras she won from the auction but I told her it is best we dont put them in there as the HC might get uprooted easily.
She is also thinking of galaxy rasbora (celestrial pearl danio). Because the tank is very small (we are trying to make it look bigger by using plants with smaller leaves and so on but it is just a 8.5 gallon without any substrate), and we do not want anything that might uproot the plants, plus they need to live in slightly acidic soft water with Co2 and Ph swing on a daily basis, our choice of fish is really not that wide. I like her choice of a small school of galaxy rasbora. She is also thinking of may be getting some small shrimps (like cherry or something). We are thinking of only 1 type of fish as it would look better in the picture, and very lightly stock to avoid making a mess on the carpet with overfeeding and too much waste.
Because we will crack up the Co2 in the beginning we will likley not put any fish/shrimp in there until much later. She has much more patience than me in this regard.
She will be dosing and trimming once we have flooded the tank. Right now, it is just spraying and spraying and spraying...while trying to imagine how wonderful the tank may look in the future.
Mostly something will go wrong but it is a learning process and we will try to solve our problems as we move forward to make this as nice a tank as we can. 
Will you be going to the Dec meeting? May be we will see you there?

* After I typed the above I checked the parameters of galaxy rasbora and it says they need soft but slightly alkaline water...so may be it is nto that suitable after all. May be we will just end up with some cardinal tetra, which is kind of predictable and boring, isn't it? LOL They may also bit too big for this tank...o well...we still have time to figure it out, any suggestion?


----------



## Alkatraz (Jul 20, 2012)

I really like Galaxy Rasbora, lot of detail in such a small fish and easy to keep. Caution though, if you don't have a cover, you'll get jumpers. Over 4 months, I've lost 60% of my galaxy rasboras due to jumping. (I have a 7.9g Fluval tank) It seems to happen when they get startled.. Managed to catch them a few times and return them.

+1 on reading Frank's thread on the planted tank forum. Here's the thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168992
It's up to 51 pages but its great reading.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Emily (May 4, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Hi Emily,
> Thank you for your kind words. She is just busy spraying the HC to keep them wet right now. She knows it will be a while before she can fill it with anything.
> She really likes the corydoras she won from the auction but I told her it is best we dont put them in there as the HC might get uprooted easily.
> She is also thinking of galaxy rasbora (celestrial pearl danio). Because the tank is very small (we are trying to make it look bigger by using plants with smaller leaves and so on but it is just a 8.5 gallon without any substrate), and we do not want anything that might uproot the plants, plus they need to live in slightly acidic soft water with Co2 and Ph swing on a daily basis, our choice of fish is really not that wide. I like her choice of a small school of galaxy rasbora. She is also thinking of may be getting some small shrimps (like cherry or something). We are thinking of only 1 type of fish as it would look better in the picture, and very lightly stock to avoid making a mess on the carpet with overfeeding and too much waste.
> ...


I have kept galaxy rasboras and they are beautiful little fish, but if you are looking for something else that is small and colourful but doesn't mind more acidic water, you could look into Chili Rasboras. They stay nice and small so would make your tank look bigger and they won't bother your plants. Here is a link with some info:

Boraras brigittae - Mosquito Rasbora - Seriously Fish

Shrimps are so fun to watch and they love densely planted tanks with carpets. I think that is a fantastic idea and you could definitely pair shrimp with the Chili Rasboras if they interest your daughter. They would probably snack on baby shrimplets but wouldn't be big enough to bother juvenile or adult shrimp, and if you get some dense foliage I bet you would get plenty of surviving shrimp babies.

I plan to come out to the December meeting, the only problem is I have a final exam the next day... I really want to come though so I think you will probably be seeing me there  It will be nice to see two familiar faces! I will probably be bringing my cue cards to study lol. Will the two of you be coming? I should bring my camera with photos of your fish. One of the fish I brought home that weekend infected everything with ich which is why I have had no photos lately while doing treatments, but I am finally done dosing so will probably be taking some photos soon


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

This rasbora looks very cute. Thanks a lot for this wonderful suggestion!
I saw something called mosquito rasbora before...are they the same thing? The mosquito I saw were very tiny. 
We will try to be there so hopefully we can see each other.
Hope all your fish are fine, sorry to hear about that.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Chili and Mosquito are both common names for Boraras brigittae. It's one of the 2 fish I was contemplating for my ADA cube also. I ended up going with the CPD (Celestial Pearl Danio or Galaxy Rasboras) due to personal preference.  I think you'll like either of them in your tank. Do not get overconcerned with the acidic water as such as the pH from CO2 is transient and your ADA AS will buffer the pH to 6.5 or so regardless anyway.


----------



## Smallermouse (Jan 28, 2012)

Looking really nice. Can't wait to see the flood!!


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Chili and Mosquito are both common names for Boraras brigittae. It's one of the 2 fish I was contemplating for my ADA cube also. I ended up going with the CPD (Celestial Pearl Danio or Galaxy Rasboras) due to personal preference. I think you'll like either of them in your tank. Do not get overconcerned with the acidic water as such as the pH from CO2 is transient and your ADA AS will buffer the pH to 6.5 or so regardless anyway.


Hi Gary,
Thanks.
I had some CPD before and they were very cute--the male had this thing on their fins when they sort of flare which look realy cool. I do notice that they do not really school or shoal together that much. Mine were kind of just doing their own thing by themselves. Do yours school?
I am thnking may be I should get the boraras brigittae if they will form a tighter school as that would look nicer when I try to take a pic of the tank. Plus the ones I saw were really small so I am hoping may be i can get a bit more (like 8 of them rather than 5 or so)?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Mine stay together sometimes and break up at other times. I don't think anything "schools" in tanks as small as these, as they really see the entire tank as their "zone". You really only see the schooling effect in large tanks. For instance, my cories and tetras all shoal in my 125 and 100 cube, but not so much in my 46 bow, and not at all when I had them in 15 and 20 gallon tanks.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Got a little Eheim Ecco filter for this tank today. 
I will hook it up after it is flooded. Waiting for some plants for the background and then will think about fish. 
The HC are still not dead yet so may be they will be okay...fingers crossed. LOL
Thanks everyone.


----------



## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Really looking forward to seeing you flood the tank. Which ecco did you get?

Thanks for the update!


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Just a little guy, I can put it next to the tank if I want to. I really like it. Got it from a member here, who is an awesome guy by the way.
Three trays (bottom to top): matrix with coarse sponge, Eheim sintered glass, Eheim sinter glass, Eheim polishing pad, pre-filter blue pad on top of the trays.
I have not tried it yet but I am sure it will do a great job.
May consider getting a small set of lily pipes but nto sure yet.


----------



## Foxtail (Mar 14, 2012)

Another small fish that I like (don't know if it would work for you) is pencil fish. I also like whiteclouds. 

Sent via the Shining.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I noticed that some of the HC was under water in the front and they started to turn a bit brown, so I decided to just flood the tank.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Attached more pic...


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Few more pic


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

awesome, looks like it managed to hang onto the substrate and now float up. Browning was probably from too much moisture and rotting? Hopefully it'll recover now it's all submerged. Looking good now!


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Yeah, passed the point of no return so now is hope-for-the-best- prepare-for-the-worst time...let's hope they make it.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Took a few more pictures of the tank this morning.

The plants are somehow still alive and growing. So...thanks for all your valuable inputs and pointers, they work! 

Tank is looking kind of messy now, still waiting for a background aquaflora plant and I am just going to grow the HC till it forms a nice carpet before I tidy things up a bit. Lots of bubbles in the tank from pearling and the Co2 atomizer. I may get a set of lilypipes and may move the rocks a bit--but for now, I will be working to keep the HC alive and growing so will just leave things the way they are for now.

My water has been very clear since day 1, which is very different from when I started my last planted tank.

Warer change daily--no EI, add alkaline buffer, equilibrium and excel during each water change. Light (28W 6700K power compact) and CO2 on 10 hours.

By the way, last night I made yet another one of my rookie mistakes. A super nice and helpful member, gklaw, kindly offered me his kind assistance in getting my filter to function properly again. I had the pleasure to also visit his beautiful home and admire his beautiful fish tanks (fresh water and salt water) and I also learned a lot from talking to him. Gordon is a true gentleman as well as being a very experienced and knowledgable hobbist. Just want to publicly say a big thank-you for all his help.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

The HC did not pearl at all today, with my Cos at full blast and excel dosing. Not sure what is going on.
The front HC that were under water during dry start was rotting so i took them out. The rest are looking fine, just no pearl at all??????????
In hingsight I think i was probably better off not doing dry start but planted them in shallow water than flood right after.
I remember when I tried ADA in my other planted tank before, in the beginning the water looked cloudy and I had algae and all that to deal with; this time the water is crystal clear, no algae and just hmmmmm... nothing at all. I feel like I must have missed something....weird. Then today not even pearling on the HC...


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

It's because the dry start cycled the tank so you didn't have to deal with the ammonia leaching.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> It's because the dry start cycled the tank so you didn't have to deal with the ammonia leaching.


Thanks. So..the first day I had tones of pearling then I have nothing today is normal, too?


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Yes, that's just the off-gassing of "gas saturated" water from the tap. It has been discussed HERE


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Okay thanks guys. Now I can stop looking at it and go to bed. LOL.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

TheBigCheese said:


> Yes, that's just the off-gassing of super oxygenated water from the tap. It has been discussed HERE


Not entirely true. This phenomenon is also discussed in a lot of plant forums. The gas in the tap is CO2 and other gases, along with O2, since our water systems are pressurized. But if you do a big water change with aged water you will still get the champagne effect. The reason is atmospheric CO2. Its concentration is higher than can be had without gassing fish in the water. That's the reason the dry start method works so well. One gets to utilize atmospheric CO2, which is free and unlimited, as it's constantly being replenished by respiration and other oxidation events.

Once you flood it, to achieve that kind of pearling, you'll have to dial in the CO2.


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

yeah yeah yeah... Its been discussed in the thread I linked.. no need to highjack fish rookies' thread... It's all debatable... You can have Co2 perfectly dialed in but you need the high oxygen concentrations to get pearling.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I have turned up the filter a bit before the pearling stopped so perhaps the gas bubbles had no chance to collect, is that possible.
I am pretty sure I have more than enough Co2 in this tiny tank. I wont even put any fish/shrimp in there as I am sure they would die from too much Co2.LOL


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Should check that your PH doesnt drop too low with so much CO2. Are you using a drop checker? 
A PH crash can kill the bacteria in your filter and you'll have to cycle again.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

That is a good point. I have added alkaline buffer and my lowest Ph is 6.8. Total hardness about 10. I am adding like 3 bubbles per second or may be more. 
I am not gonna to add fish anytome soon. Never really tried to cycle it to be honest with you.LOL
Never worked with HC before but in the past glosso and others all pearl, so i am just wondering....
I was doing daily wc but it seems unnecesarily as the wate ris very clean and the reading are very good so I am just going toleave them.
EI in the morning but may be I dont need to?
Anyways...going to turn down the filter flow a bit to see what would happen.
Thanks for all your help.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

May be they are dying which is why they are not pearling????
Anway, will wait and see...*sign*
Took a few pictures...as you can see they are not pearling at all--not even one beep.


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Dont worry if they're not pearling. The plants are most likely stressed and changing form Emersed to Submerged growth. 
Patients is key. Give it 3 weeks and it'll be filled in and growing nicely. I had the same problem with my HC carpet but 
it really does take off when it gets established. You're doing well and it's looking good.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

TheBigCheese said:


> Dont worry if they're not pearling. The plants are most likely stressed and changing form Emersed to Submerged growth.
> Patients is key. Give it 3 weeks and it'll be filled in and growing nicely. I had the same problem with my HC carpet but
> it really does take off when it gets established. You're doing well and it's looking good.


Thanks for the encouragement, appreciate it.
They were pearling liek crazy once I put them under water...then a day later everything stopped.
We will see...may be I am just over-reacting...lol


----------



## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Agree with TheBigCheese. My guess is that now the HC has to adapt to being underwater?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Just look to the plants' health...pearling or not pearling is dependent on so many things it's not an indicator of much. I have pearling tanks with algae and very healthy tank which are algaeless without pearling. Get the HC growing and it'll pearl unless you're blowing a vortex of flow at it. My HC pearls so much that it's annoying as it causes my canister filter to "burp" as it's sucking in so much gas.

As for dialing in CO2, if you're on plantedtank.net look at Francis Xavier's thread again on his ADA start to finish. Diffuser placement, diffusion method, aquascaping, flow patterns all can affect the CO2 uptake and efficiency.

I also would not worry about pH at all with ADA as it'll stay there pretty much in that range until the buffers in it run out. CO2 pH is transient and won't affect anything. Since you have no livestock, unless you're bombarding it with so much CO2 (which doesn't sound like you are) that it's consistently at toxic levels for life, there's no way to harm the plants. You do want to temper that since you'll have to "wean" the plants back on that much CO2 before you put livestock in.


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Just look to the plants' health...pearling or not pearling is dependent on so many things it's not an indicator of much. I have pearling tanks with algae and very healthy tank which are algaeless without pearling. Get the HC growing and it'll pearl unless you're blowing a vortex of flow at it. My HC pearls so much that it's annoying as it causes my canister filter to "burp" as it's sucking in so much gas.
> 
> As for dialing in CO2, if you're on plantedtank.net look at Francis Xavier's thread again on his ADA start to finish. Diffuser placement, diffusion method, aquascaping, flow patterns all can affect the CO2 uptake and efficiency.
> 
> I also would not worry about pH at all with ADA as it'll stay there pretty much in that range until the buffers in it run out. CO2 pH is transient and won't affect anything. Since you have no livestock, unless you're bombarding it with so much CO2 (which doesn't sound like you are) that it's consistently at toxic levels for life, there's no way to harm the plants. You do want to temper that since you'll have to "wean" the plants back on that much CO2 before you put livestock in.


I agree, you're right to aim for plant health and not Pearling directly and I'm sure he's on the right track with that.

You're full of so many contradictory comments haha. You CAN have a PH crash induced by CO2 injection. I've had one before and it wiped out my whole 
CRS stock and I had to wait for the tank to cycle again, proven by water perimeter tests. It has nothing to do with ADA soil buffering. I dont think he'll 
harm the plants but there is the possibility to run into issues with the bio filtration and create more of an issue with an unstable tank giving him algae, 
diatoms etc..


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks Gary for all your help as always. Thank you Big Cheese for your valuable input. I will try to be careful. I add about 1/8 of a tea spoon of alkaline buffer plus I also have placed some on the bottom of the substrate before I poured in the ADA, the Ph so far is quite steady. I do aim to have good bacteria on the substrate and hopefully under as well so my plants can develop healthy root and growth and hopefully no ugly alage on the substrate. I am also adding Excel along with Co2 injection.
I will play around with the placement of the diffuser and check the thread by Frank. I am using an atomizer but I do not really like it to be honest. I want to get an inline but it sounds like an overkill. LOL. It is weird working with such a small tank, it is actually quite a bit more complex then expected.
I will change the water of my discus tank then turn off the light and Co2 and go to bed. Let;s see how things go tomorrow. May be I should place the diffuser on the other side of the tank or something like that? Will play around with the idea a bit.
Thaks for all your help.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

They pearl sometimes but still do not go crazy. My Co2 sometimes die for no reason so I am going to keep it up 24 hours. I think it is the amount of dissolved Co2 that is the problem.
Other than that they are still green and look to be alive.
Will keep you guys updated.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

So, took out opti-carb from the filter, replace it with sintered glass. Filter media is from bottom to top: 1st tray: eheim coarse sponge pad, matrix; 2nd tray: eheim sintered glass; 3rd tray: eheim sinter glass, purigen, fine filter sponge pad.
Start dosing NPKFeExcel every morning
water change 30% every 3 days.
light and Co2 off at night.
I have moved the diffuser around and found that this seems to be the best position.
Nothing has died yet, pearling now.
Forgive the poor quality picture, will take better pictures and tidy things up once the plants start to fill in.
Thank you.


----------



## crimper (Oct 20, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Start dosing NPKFeExcel every morning
> water change 30% every 3 days at night
> light and Co2 off at night.


Looking good Fish Rookie. May i ask why you're doing WC every 3 days?

Dont worry about HC not pearling like crazy, too much pearling will cause your HC to float, when that happens you're back to square 1.


----------



## crimper (Oct 20, 2010)

It happened to me by the way


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

The water change? Well, I want to keep the water oxgenated for the bacteria and the plants, make sure the depleted minerals are replenished, keep my redox, and that the parameters are reset every three days. It is a new tank with ADA I want to make sure I do not have algae. It also gives me a chance to remove all dead plants and leaves and what not so they dont fall on the substrate and rot. 
It is a very small tank so I can change the water in like 5 minutes. 
Thanks.


----------



## crimper (Oct 20, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> The water change? Well, I want to keep the water oxgenated for the bacteria and the plants, make sure the depleted minerals are replenished, keep my redox, and that the parameters are reset every three days. It is a new tank with ADA I want to make sure I do not have algae. It also gives me a chance to remove all dead plants and leaves and what not so they dont fall on the substrate and rot.
> It is a very small tank so I can change the water in like 5 minutes.
> Thanks.


Algae is normal for newly setup aquariums. Even experts are no exception to this, our friend here Bien Lim told me that he gets algae all the time esp on newly setup tanks, what matters is we do adjustments and try to balance the system.

Most of the time the cause of algae is the CO2 being unstable, second is the light intensity and photo period, the rest is gravy in my experience.

"But what works for me might not work for you."


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

crimper said:


> Algae is normal for newly setup aquariums. Even experts are no exception to this, our friend here Bien Lim told me that he gets algae all the time esp on newly setup tanks, what matters is we do adjustments and try to balance the system.
> 
> Most of the time the cause of algae is the CO2 being unstable, second is the light intensity and photo period, the rest is gravy in my experience.
> 
> "But what works for me might not work for you."


Thanks for the info. 
I have seen Bien's tank. Yes, saw some algae but overall his plants and fish are very healthy.
Anyway, I have no algae in this tank--either in this tank or in my daughter's low tech 25 gallon.
It is a matter of healthy balance I agree, and to keep everything clean with good supply of oxygen for the bacteria seems to help. But that is just my opinion.
Not every new set up tank has algae issue though.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The multiple and frequent water changes are recommended when one is starting with ADA AS as it leaches ammonia in the beginning. Some people do daily water changes even. I suspect it's your wc every 3 days which is keeping the algae away as well as good growth and moderate lighting. Quite often on smaller tanks (like my ADA) there is way too much light and it starts a seesaw of imbalanced nutrients in the beginning until everything settles down. 

That's the beauty of EI, so more or less water changes, but stick to the dosing scheme and ensure there is enough of everything (CO2, NPK) and the tanks will be nice and algae free.


----------



## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

Good job with the tank it's coming a long well. I can't wait to get my ada tank up and running. I recently picked up a used Cube Garden 120.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

2wheelsx2 said:


> The multiple and frequent water changes are recommended when one is starting with ADA AS as it leaches ammonia in the beginning. Some people do daily water changes even. I suspect it's your wc every 3 days which is keeping the algae away as well as good growth and moderate lighting. Quite often on smaller tanks (like my ADA) there is way too much light and it starts a seesaw of imbalanced nutrients in the beginning until everything settles down.
> 
> That's the beauty of EI, so more or less water changes, but stick to the dosing scheme and ensure there is enough of everything (CO2, NPK) and the tanks will be nice and algae free.


I was doing daily changes in the beginning with opti carb (activated carbon+ion resin) in the filter. Now, I am only basically using bio and purigen in the filter and change my water every 3 days.
Water is very clear, but growth is not spectacular.
I want to take a less aggressive approach this time and see what would happen if I let my plants grow slowly rather than forcing them.
Yes I see lots of people using crazy light and have algae. I think in order to do that you need to know your plants and your lighting properties very well. 
Also, some people put many kinds of plants in a small tank which makes it much more difficult to achieve a balance as each plant has their own needs and like to grow at their own specific pace. For example x amount of light might be perfect for plant A but could be barely enough for plant B. When one sees that plant B is struggling one may increase its photo period or lighting power which then makes it worst for plant A. In order to compensate one might try to add more fert to help plant A but plant A just needs a bit less light. The additional ferts upsets the whole balance and everything looks worst. One may then try to increase more light, or add more ferts but nothing seems to help and algae is now going nuts so one decides to add more CO2 but the the fish die...it can go on and on while in fact if one knew that all one needed to do was to give plant B more light and plant A less light (may be place plant B higher and mor edirectly under the light while placing plant A under partial shade and lower?)this would have been much more managable...Imagine when one has A,B,C,.....X, Y, Z species of plants, it is very hard to achieve optinum growth for all of them. It can be done but it is important to know the properties of the plants very well in order to pull something like that off nicely which takes experience.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

A lot of it has to do with expertise with the scape also. You can use high light demand plants which grow taller to shade less light demanding/slower growing plants. Put hardscape materials to block and diffuse flow around plants and disperse the CO2 more evenly, etc. The problems come when one optimizes the light/CO2 for the most demanding plants. As for CO2, pressurized is cheap, so one can manage the CO2 demand by increasing surface turnover at the expense of CO2. Some people think if you're using CO2 you have to reduce surface agitation when in fact in all situations, you want as much non-turbulent surface agitation as you can possibly achieve. I've had this 10 lb tank on my ADA cube for 6 months and expect it to be another 10 or more months before needing a refill. $20 for 18 months of plant growth seems like a pretty good deal to me.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I heard Amano's tank do not really have algae problems in the beginning. Someone told me if you follow the "ADA method" you can start a tank wth no algae consitently. I am unfrotunatey not really sure what the "ADA method" is.
Anyway, luckily, everything sems to be working ok so far...we will see.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Based on Francis Xavier's thread on Plantedtank, I don't believe that's the case. He's using the full on ADA everything, even ADA lights.

I think there are just too many variables to say one method is algae free. Tom Barr has been doing this a long time also and he mentions algae in all of his CO2 injected setups. The only setups where there has been no algae that I have had are no CO2 and low light, but that's just my personal experience. If yours continues to be algae free, that's a major bonus.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I read some of Francis's threads, I think he got algae because he neglected the tank or did something wrong somewhere along the line though, didn't he?
From how I understadn it Amano has a special way to set up his tanks in the first month or so in terms of what to dose and how much and how often to change the water and things like that in the beginning which is supposed to work very well for his type of tanks. But I dont know it could just be some marketing thingy...
What about dry start, I thought Tom Barr siad his dry start is awesome one of the major benefits being algae free in the begining?
Hopefully this will be fine.. so far so good so there is hope but you never know...may be everything will melt and be gone when I wake up tomorrow...


----------



## crimper (Oct 20, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Thanks for the info.
> I have seen Bien's tank. Yes, saw some algae but overall his plants and fish are very healthy.
> Anyway, I have no algae in this tank--either in this tank or in my daughter's low tech 25 gallon.
> It is a matter of healthy balance I agree, and to keep everything clean with good supply of oxygen for the bacteria seems to help. But that is just my opinion.
> Not every new set up tank has algae issue though.


If you got algae after "A week of flooding, then that's not normal."


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Just realized Co2 pressure is very low so probably need to have it refilled. Plan in doing it tomorrow.
DBC is now in Delta, hope they are not more expensive now that they have moved. It is about a 30 minutes drive one way for me. 
Hope I can get the tank back right away Will dose Excel before I unplug the Co2.
Anyway, we will see.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Okay, filled my 10lb up and turned on the Co2. It is weird everything looked much better. May be I had too little Co2 in the tanl before. it was almost zero but still lots of bubbles coming ouit...
Anyway, CO2 now on 24/7. Light on 10 hours.
Water change (50% or a bit more) Mon, Wed, Fri in the morning and ferts added in the new water bucket. I add equailibrium, alkaline buffer, N, P, K, Fe, Excel.
Co2 about 2 bubbles per second.
No algae, pearling but not too excessive. Plants are growing but not too fast.
No fish no shrim, just plants with tones of Co2 in the tank for now.
Thats about it.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Well, it has been almost a week now. Luckily no algae bloom and the plants are still alive.
I placed some L. Repens in the back of the rocks to keep things in check as it is a fast grower but I will replace them with hairgrass once the tank is stabilized.
Still doing regular water change and dosing of NPKFeExcelEquilibrium. Co2 on 24/7., light on 10 hours.


----------



## TheBigCheese (Oct 1, 2012)

Very nice! Looking great! Keep that HC trimmed low! you want to promote deep roots, and keep it up from floating up.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks. I am afraid if I trim them they would come up as they really do nto look like they have a deep root system yet.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Yep I think your HC needs a trim or it'll start to float up. I'd also do Blyxa Japonica instead of hairgrass in the back. I just like the bushy Blyxa look better.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thanks for your suggestion Gary. This is actually my daughter's tank. She does not want to plant any more B.japonica because we did a lot of those in the VAHS planted tank contest tank already. Besides, she really likes the look of the eleocharis vivipara she saw in some ADA tanks online so we have decided to give this a try. 
I will ask her to trim the HC may be tomorrow. 
Thanks.


----------



## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Did some trimming and happy to report that the plants 9well most of them) are still there and nothing has died!
There were a few specks of green on the rocks and my daughter wiped those off with a piece of magic eraser.
Got impatient and removed the L. Repens (probably shoud have left them), trimmed the top of the hairgrass and planted then into the empty space behind the rocks. 
So far no algae bloom. I hope we can keep it that way.
Well, let's wait and see what happens I guess...


----------

