# Endangered Fly River Turtles



## TomC

There are currently Fly River Turtles being offered for sale on BCAquaria. According to any information I can find (somebody please correct me if I am wrong), FRT's are endangered and have been bred in captivity only a handful of times. This means that every single one in Canada is smuggled.

What is BCAquaria's policy on this?

I realize that there are many endangered species (such as axolotls) which breed freely in captivity and are very legitimate pets, so it is an impossible task to keep tabs on every transaction. But I have frequently seen FRTs offered on this site, and it would be a simple task to say "No more trading in this particular endangered species on BCAquaria". If the mods can shut down threads for coarse language, then surely it isn't asking too much of them to do the same for the obviously immoral activity of trading in wild caught endangered turtles. No need to make a long, complicated list of species but when blatantly obvious situations like this arise, just shut the thread down.

What do you think?

Edit: I must make one correction. FRTs are listed on Appendix II of CITES, so are considered Vulnerable (meaning they are likely to become endangered if exploitation continues). Nevertheless, the ones in Canada are still smuggled.


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## er201

I think the FRT's members on this board came in from farms. Not 100% sure though.


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## TomC

er201 said:


> I think the FRT's members on this board came in from farms. Not 100% sure though.


 If that is the case, then great. But I cannot find any information on the existence of these farms. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Diztrbd1

They are rarely captive bred if ever, from what I have researched. There are only a couple times ever claimed to breed in captivity. Any info on farms says they were experimenting with them. I have yet to find anything saying they were successful. There are no licensed breeders for them. And I agree, any that are here are smuggled. I could be wrong but I find it funny it was said there were captive raised ones available thru members here, yet that is the first we have heard of it. I would think ya just might see a thread on something as exciting as that if it were true. I seen it said on another thread, a certain LFS's excuse for having crappy looking FRT's was because they came from a farm. My question about that is how did they get into BC being as all turtles are illegal to import now, especially FRT's? Is there a farm, here I don't know about?

*this is from MFK:*

_Beware that before purchasing a Fly River Turtle for sale, keep in mind that they are illegal to export from their habitat. I was fortunate enough to receive a visit and an email from Scott Thomson with Carettochelys insculpta Carettochelydae and Chelidae Information Network . He provided me this information about Pig-Nosed Turtles for sale:

"The species has now been bred in captivity on three occasions as yet none of these animals have ever been sold. Hence there are no licensed breeders of Fly River Turtles or Pig Nose Turtles for sale and there never has been.
All Fly River Turtles on the market for sale have been smuggled out of Indonesia by locals stealing eggs from beaches. These are incubated and the hatchlings are then exported. This was the basis for the recent listing of the species on CITES II. (CITES=Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species)
Also you may want to note that as the species is CITES II. Now you cannot import them anymore. The three countries in which they are found have had bans on their export for 30 years and in any case all three countries are signatories to CITES. They cannot allow their export anymore without CITES permits. Although if there ever were a licensed breeder that will sell Fly River Turtles, you could import them into the US for sale (in theory), as this has never occurred it is a moot point." - Cheers, Scott_

You would never be able to import them here with the new BC Ministry of Environment's retricted species laws

*From Pig-nosed turtle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :*
Conservation status:
_The species has experienced a 50% decline in the past 20 years.[5] Although pig-nosed turtles are protected in Indonesia under Law No. 5/1990 on Natural Resources and Ecosystems Conservation, smuggling occurs. Some 11,000 turtles captured from smugglers were released into their habitats in the Wania River, Papua Province, Indonesia on 30 December 2010. In March 2009, more than 10,000 turtles retrieved from smugglers were also released into the Otakwa River
_

*
interesting story from last month:
*
AFP: Hong Kong seizes 800 endangered pig-nosed turtles

sad....couple hundred didn't make it.

I don't have issues with people that have them here already as I know most take great care of theirs. I do however dislike people looking for small ones knowing they are illegal & endangered if they did any kind of research of them.


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## rescuepenguin

It is difficult for me to participate in this poll for the following reasons.

I do oppose "over fishing" in the wild. Before any one reads the next comment, I do believe that proper habitat management is the best option for maintaining a species.

I also believe that legitimate captive breeding projects are also an option for maintaining a species as well. The by product of some captive breeding projects is extra individuals which can be either re introduced into the wild, exchanged with other captive breeding projects, or sold into the pet trade to help fund the projects.

yes I agree my second comment does reach into a gray area, and can easily become a "thorny subject".

Steve


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## TomC

rescuepenguin said:


> I also believe that legitimate captive breeding projects are also an option for maintaining a species as well. The by product of some captive breeding projects is extra individuals which can be either re introduced into the wild, exchanged with other captive breeding projects, or sold into the pet trade to help fund the projects.


 I completely agree with all of this. But this does not apply to Fly River Turtles. The ones being traded on this forum are illegaly imported, and most certainly are not going to any legitimate breeding project.

From what I am able to find out FRTs have two main threats: Habitat destruction, and the pet trade.


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## m_class2g

i voted yes to ban the turtles for sale by accident.

i meant to put no.

to responsible people that can "properly" house them, sure why not. i kept a few before myself.

keeping any fish for our enjoyment or keeping any animal for that fact at home is cruel. endangered animals or not.


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## Grete_J

I'm on the fence about the whole idea as well. If they're being taken illegally from their native habitat, I'm against it. If they're being bred in captivity, I'm all for it. Even though there aren't many reports of being able to breed them in captivity, I'm sure there's more than 3 successful breedings, just that they go unreported. A licensed fly river turtle breeder? Does that even exist? I know of licensed dog/cat/rabbit breeders, but don't even know if licensed reptile breeders exist. As for them being CITES II listed, they are still legal to import, it's just $1500 in paperwork, same with axolotl's. Before making any rash decisions regarding the importation of them, perhaps perusing the CITES site, Agriculture Canada site, Environment Canada, US Fish & Wildlife, etc would enlighten people as to the legalities behind it.


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## Mferko

m_class2g said:


> i voted yes to ban the turtles for sale by accident.
> 
> i meant to put no.
> 
> to responsible people that can "properly" house them, sure why not. i kept a few before myself.
> 
> keeping any fish for our enjoyment or keeping any animal for that fact at home is cruel. endangered animals or not.


why not? because it does not matter if someone can properly house them if that person and others like them "properly housing them" is contributing to them being endangered... think about it.

as for the comment about being responsible, responsible people do their research, and dont buy illegally smuggled turtles in the first place.

youd rather sit back and watch the species become extinct and only have a few specimens left in captivity?


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## Diztrbd1

m_class2g said:


> i voted yes to ban the turtles for sale by accident.
> 
> i meant to put no.
> 
> to responsible people that can "properly" house them, sure why not. i kept a few before myself.
> 
> keeping any fish for our enjoyment or keeping any animal for that fact at home is cruel. endangered animals or not.


lol I think I accidentally voted no so we can say the count is right :bigsmile:

I can agree with the part of people who can responsibly house them. But there's way too many that get/want them and not realize how big they get and end up having to get rid of them when they get 8" or so. How many people actually want one at 8" or bigger? How many LF: ads do you see looking for a bigger FRT? You don't & judging by some of the ones I have seen for sale on here and how hard they are to get rid of at 8" and up makes me wonder where some of them end up at as I never seen much interest in them or a final sale. 
And you may be right about "keeping any fish for our enjoyment or keeping any animal for that fact at home is cruel." But this isn't about cruelty. It's about supporting an illegal trade & the laws regarding an endangered species that is illegal to import into BC, endangered or not. If they were bred here is one thing, but most evidence points to them not being bred in captivity therefore they must be here illegally.



Grete_J said:


> A licensed fly river turtle breeder? Does that even exist?


apparently they don't


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## AWW

resale is not the issue, Its the wholesalers supporting the sales of them that is the issue. taking the sales of FRTs off BC Aquaria will just force the sales onto Craigslist, likely into the hands of someone less experienced.


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## Diztrbd1

totally agreed AWW, but in all honesty most of the turtles I've seen posted here were also posted on CL. I don't think it was so much the sales of them on here that inspired this, as much as it was the people posting LF: ads on them, usually wanting smaller ones.


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## StickS

I have to think this ad was inspired by my LF post. I agree with what AWW posted. They are going to be sold and traded in the area regardless of whether or not they are posted here. I prefer to deal with people from this site because I find people here care more. My roommate is looking for a small one to grow up and keep forever because he's always wanted one and wants it to be "his."


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## Hi Im Mike

I'm pretty sure that most if not all the FRT keepers do their research on this turtle before purchasing one..Mind you $350-$650 for 3"-6" is quite costly and if you don't read up on them then I guess you're just rich and just don't care.
They say the turtle can grow to 24" shell and has a weight of 50 pounds. This is true but only in the wild. The biggest recorded FRT is captivity is only 13" shell.
This means you can house them in 180g+ tanks. Anything 6' long and 2' wide would last your FRT a long time. They don't grow as fast and i've read after 10" the growth rate slows down dramaticly.


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## TomC

My point is not that people care about and properly care for their turtles. Most willing to pay that kind of money will look after them.

The point is that the main threat to FRTs is the pet trade. Should BCAquaria be knowingly participating (even in a small way) in the extinction of these turtles?


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## Grete_J

TomC said:


> My point is not that people care about and properly care for their turtles. Most willing to pay that kind of money will look after them.
> 
> The point is that the main threat to FRTs is the pet trade. Should BCAquaria be knowingly participating (even in a small way) in the extinction of these turtles?


What if these hobbyists were or are able to breed them in captivity? As it stands there are apparently 3 semi-documented cases of captive breedings. That's at least 3 people making an active effort to decrease need for illegal exportations. In Mexico, they've set up a breeding program for axolotl's in hopes of being able to repopulate the diminishing number in the wild. For most Axolotl owners, their success rate for spawns has been nowhere near prolific as ours. Most are lucky if they wind up with 2 that survive. Who's to say that it isn't possible for BCA members to do the same with FRTs? I still disagree with illegally exporting them, but agree with keeping them responsibly.


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## Ursus sapien

Grete_J said:


> What if these hobbyists were or are able to breed them in captivity? As it stands there are apparently 3 semi-documented cases of captive breedings. That's at least 3 people making an active effort to decrease need for illegal exportations. In Mexico, they've set up a breeding program for axolotl's in hopes of being able to repopulate the diminishing number in the wild. For most Axolotl owners, their success rate for spawns has been nowhere near prolific as ours. Most are lucky if they wind up with 2 that survive. Who's to say that it isn't possible for BCA members to do the same with FRTs? I still disagree with illegally exporting them, but agree with keeping them responsibly.


Legaly aquired animals have a much better death-to-live delivery ratio. In my bird days, the _conservative_ estamate was for every one smuggled animal you see cuddled up with it's new human, 9 died enroute. Very, very few of even the easiest endangered species end up in breeding situations via that route.

Allowing an 'after trade' to flourish encourages primary trafficing. Hence the regulations around ivory and tiger pelts.


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## TomC

Grete_J said:


> What if these hobbyists were or are able to breed them in captivity? As it stands there are apparently 3 semi-documented cases of captive breedings. That's at least 3 people making an active effort to decrease need for illegal exportations. In Mexico, they've set up a breeding program for axolotl's in hopes of being able to repopulate the diminishing number in the wild. For most Axolotl owners, their success rate for spawns has been nowhere near prolific as ours. Most are lucky if they wind up with 2 that survive. Who's to say that it isn't possible for BCA members to do the same with FRTs? I still disagree with illegally exporting them, but agree with keeping them responsibly.


 The situation with axolotls is a bit different. The time they need to mature is quite short and, as you have shown, it is quite possible to breed them. This lessens the strain on the wild population, and with this species has pretty much eliminated the demand for wild stock.

This isnt the case for FRTs. They take so long to mature, and adults require such special housing, that it is a bit of a stretch to imagine any of the people on this forum setting up a serious and effective breeding program.

I have kept birds and fish all my life, and have no problem with keeping pets. But is it really necessary to choose a pet that is at risk, mostly from the very fact that it makes a cool pet?


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## King-eL

It's funny that post from 2007 are being posted here too. This is 2011 now. In 2007 you can only find large FRT which were for sure smuggled or were here already. Never even seen baby FRT around 2007-2008. It was around 2009-2010 when some pure luck that some reptile farm in Indonesia accidentally breed FRT. That's is why it was last year when you seen plenty of FRTs at Fraser Aquarium. Still the location is in Vancouver, so they are still ban. Also how can you explain the large numbers of Leusistics and albinos FRT if they were not captive breed. Leusistic and albinos FRT rarely occur in the wild and will likely come out of the batch ones in the blue moon from a wild parents. Most will not even survive to become adult.

PT. Alam Nusantara Jayatama Alnusa-Indonesia is the farm in Indonesia that is CITES license breeder of FRT and many other reptiles. I didn't really wanna share the farm name here due to business purposes. Although they won't sell any baby FRT if they do not know you very well which is good. However a person can always change it's mind if big money are being offer. Also they are not readily available just like how you get asian arowanas. Paper works are the same though. It must be approve by CITES. Now many people will know the farm. Many will for sure come to visit the farm and have their names sign in for business. Wow I'll be expecting more competition in the near future soon I guest. I know about 8 farms in Indonesia that successfully breed FRT but only 3 are CITES license. Sorry can't name the other 2.

When this thread was posted I feel that I'm a criminal since I feel of accused of being a smuggler. Even though the finger was not pointed at me. Since the Thread in the for sale section started this also started.


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## josephl

As there are some that are captive raised, wouldn't it be putting the mods in a very awkward situation to have to ask someone talking about FRT whether or not there turtle is captive bred and what city they got it from? 

If there is a blanket ban, innocent FRT owners wold be falsely accused and made to feel guilty, like King El which goes against everythign a democratic society stands for.


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