# Frustrated about costs of planted aquariums and nature aquariums



## Redshrimp2709

Overhead costs of pet stores aside, I've spent more than 5K within the setup period of my 90G and the cost of maintainance for the plants only is about $40 to $50 per month, including CO2 injection. I'm frustrated because most of my years of aquarium experience was from 13 to 20 years ago when things were very different and a "dirt" tank or "nature aquarium" were concepts I never heard of (of course planted aquariums and Dutch planted aquariums existed). I could've just picked branches from a creek in Hope or even just in North Burnaby. I should've picked river pebbles and stones from there. A lot of pebbles in the region are inert and do not release any unwanted minerals or chemicals to harden water. If branches risk toxins leaching into the water, I can guarantee that if you buy branches designed for birds to perch on at pet stores, they are safe and less than 75% of the cost. I wish I wasn't so uninformed re-entering the hobby. Of course, some types of hardscape cannot simply be picked up for free off the side of a creek, but there's more.

Now with YouTube and learning of aquarists, especially outside of Canada, saying they've spent very little money on lighting and ferts, I'm wondering if I've been throwing money away on Kessil lights, Tropica soil, and Tropica ferts when others are using garden variety dirt and dry ferts and clamp on desk lamps with CFL's or LED panels you can get for $70.

I'm curous how many planted aquarium hobbyist willingly spend money on products exclusively designed and marketed just for aquarium plants, and how many just go to Home Depot to get most of what they need. ADA may at times, be an exception because I not only see the quality of their equipment and their aquariums, but some of their supplies, additives, stones and wood, are so unique, they can only be found and imported from select places in the world. That being said I would be tempted to cut costs in areas where I find it is practical to do so. I think ferts is a good example. Dry ferts anyone?

Cheers.


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## DunderBear

Woah 5k to be completely honest thats insane for a 90G I could set up a 180G reef for almost the same price excluding maybe some livestock. I personally think Kessils are not needed for FW just throw on 2 Finnex Planted+ and your good for even the high tech tanks. I definitely feel you could've cut the cost of the set up by a lot. I think I've spent like 1k setting up 3 tanks altogether my 37G, 20G and 10G. However all of these tanks were mid tech but still I just don't think it's worth it to go all out on one tank.


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## troutsniffer

I never buy that stuff. There's no way I'm spending all that money for stuff like aqua soils which are probably just kiln dried lumps of dirt. You can if you want to but I won't. There's just no way I'm spending over $100 just to fill my tank with "planted substrate"

If you want to replicate nature, use dirt. I had a tank running last year that was completely made up of found materials. Dirt capped with small gravel I sifted out of the vedder. That tank grew plants like crazy, it was a gong show. Much better than the tank I have now with dirt capped with bought gravel substrate. Only reason why I took it down was because hitch hikers made it into the tank. Anything advertised with "nature" somewhere on the package and it's expensive is a scam.


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## Redshrimp2709

LOL! Thanks guys, for the info, and now I feel awful LOL. Well, I'll be clear. I bought an Fluval Profile 1200. This was a package of $1600 after taxes and it included 4 T5's on two canopy bars. It included the 90G aquarium, the stand with custom holes for the Fluval canister filter (I think a Fluval 406), which was also included. It also came with the heater. The most expensive part were the Kessils at about $550 for two. The CO2 system was over $200. The charge for a 12lb tank of pressurized CO2 initially was a lot at AW. It's a $50 charge to refill, the tank, but I recently filled it at the Vancouver Fire Safety's headquarters in east Richmond for $22. I think my biggest regret are the Kessils, though the rippling does make the aquarium look stunning. 

Yes, the soil was expensive and I was recommended not to use ADA soil so I bought the Tropica equivalent. ADA soil does cause an ammonia spike, but this is not a bad thing as I recently learned. It provides the opportunity to cycle the aquarium before any livestock needs to be put in. I don't necessarily regret the aqua soil, but I don't know if I would do it again. The advantage I guess is better control of water parameters and prevention of parasites or micro-organisms thriving in the tank. Would anyone recommend regular soil from like Garden Works? Perhaps that's still more economical, but it may reduce the chances of parasites and stuff flourishing in the tank.

Yes, I agree that a lot of things marketed with the word "nature" or "natural" is a cash grab. With ADA though, the "Nature Aquarium" was just coined for the concept itself and not as any particular product. I also think that some of those expensive rocks are hard to find for free. For regular pebbles and smooth stones however, I think one can pick them from any less polluted rivers. Anyone have experience with driftwood and branches and what types work best for planted tanks? 

Thanks troutsniffer and DunderBear for your insights!


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## DunderBear

Redshrimp2709 said:


> LOL! Thanks guys, for the info, and now I feel awful LOL. Well, I'll be clear. I bought an Fluval Profile 1200. This was a package of $1600 after taxes and it included 4 T5's on two canopy bars. It included the 90G aquarium, the stand with custom holes for the Fluval canister filter (I think a Fluval 406), which was also included. It also came with the heater. The most expensive part were the Kessils at about $550 for two. The CO2 system was over $200. The charge for a 12lb tank of pressurized CO2 initially was a lot at AW. It's a $50 charge to refill, the tank, but I recently filled it at the Vancouver Fire Safety's headquarters in east Richmond for $22. I think my biggest regret are the Kessils, though the rippling does make the aquarium look stunning.
> 
> Yes, the soil was expensive and I was recommended not to use ADA soil so I bought the Tropica equivalent. ADA soil does cause an ammonia spike, but this is not a bad thing as I recently learned. It provides the opportunity to cycle the aquarium before any livestock needs to be put in. I don't necessarily regret the aqua soil, but I don't know if I would do it again. The advantage I guess is better control of water parameters and prevention of parasites or micro-organisms thriving in the tank. Would anyone recommend regular soil from like Garden Works? Perhaps that's still more economical, but it may reduce the chances of parasites and stuff flourishing in the tank.
> 
> Yes, I agree that a lot of things marketed with the word "nature" or "natural" is a cash grab. With ADA though, the "Nature Aquarium" was just coined for the concept itself and not as any particular product. I also think that some of those expensive rocks are hard to find for free. For regular pebbles and smooth stones however, I think one can pick them from any less polluted rivers. Anyone have experience with driftwood and branches and what types work best for planted tanks?
> 
> Thanks troutsniffer and DunderBear for your insights!


Don't feel too bad it happens I've spent money on dumb things also haha. In my opinion the only aquasoil I think is worth it is ADA and Fluval Stratum I always use one or the other in my tanks.


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## CRS Fan

Redshrimp2709 said:


> Anyone have experience with driftwood and branches and what types work best for planted tanks?


Manzanita and Spider Wood are great for type, texture, and sizing. They are not the cheapest but have a more branch like silhouette.

Best regards,

Stuart

Tankful in Vancouver!


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## Dawna

For fancier, non consumable products such as branches, rocks, soil and light, I would buy the marketed ones. But when it comes to fertilizers, I would buy the dry version because its WAY cheaper and for CO2, I just buy used CO2 systems.


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## 2wheelsx2

There is nothing wrong with having nice things. I have an ADA tank, albeit not a gigantic one. If you can afford it and want it, why not? If you cannot afford it then it's a different issue. It's the age old question of why people spend $100k on a Porsche when they can buy an American car that is more powerful. The answer is, because you want one, and you can afford it. It makes you feel good.

Conversely if you get a lot of satisfaction in DIY then by all means, save the money. If you don't care about how it looks then again, by all means, rig up a Frankenstein tank. I have those in my laundry room. But in my living room and at my office I want stuff that looks nice and the Fluval Profile tanks are nice.


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## CRS Fan

I started using ADA Amazonia Aquasoil (Amazonia I, II, and now New Amazonia) about 8 years ago and have not looked back. Amazonia is an excellent product and I wouldn't do a planted tank without it. Yes it makes that much of a difference. Good lighting and CO2 are also good investments. I use pressurized CO2 and LED or T5HO lighting. I highly recommend Geissemann Aquaflora and Daylight bulbs. This has been my experience and I believe many other plant enthusiasts would also concur.

JMHO.

Stuart


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## 2wheelsx2

CRS Fan said:


> I started using ADA Amazonia Aquasoil (Amazonia I, II, and now New Amazonia) about 8 years ago and have not looked back. Amazonia is an excellent product and I wouldnt do a planted tank without it. Yes it makes that much of a difference. Good lighting and CO2 are also good investments. I use pressurized CO2 and LED or T5HO lighting. I highly recommend Geissemann Aquaflora and Daylight bulbs. This has been my experience and I believe many other plant enthusiasts would also concur.


100% in agreement Stuart. I use ADA Amazonia, have 2 CO2 regs (one a dual stage setup working again thanks to Stuart's generosity), and I also use LED and T5HO and my T5 bulbs are Giesseman Aquaflora and Daylight also.


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## troutsniffer

No it doesn't. Dirt grows plants better. Because it actually comes from nature where plants have thrived since the beginning of their existence.
Nothing is dried or baked off. Theoretically speaking, you'd be better off buying flourite than any aqua soils because it holds nutrients essentially forever. 

Fluval stratum practically turns to mud over time. And it would cost a ridiculous amount of money to fill any sizeable tank. I don't want to offend anyone here, but it seems like you guys just want to justify your knack for being a sucker.

Having money to buy expensive stuff, and doing so because of a brand name, still makes you a sucker. And don't worry, we're ALL guilty of that. But the point is, it shouldn't cost that much in the first place!


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## 2wheelsx2

Dang, and I didn't know. I am going to shovel a bunch of glacial lacustrine clay from my backyard and grow some Wisteria and win that AGA Aquascaping contest next year! W00t!

AGA Aquascaping Contest

Wait how come all of those contestants are using ADA? Suckers!


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## tony1928

Isn't Fluorite basically just an inert substrate? I use it and I have to fertilize. I understand it has some basic minerals as part of its composition but nothing more. I don't see how its the same as the pricey ADA aquasoils. 

if I have to say anything about my last 30 years of fish keeping is that the hobby has never been cheap, but it can be done affordably if one chooses to do so. There are some stuff that's simply not worth it, but most of the time you get what you pay for.


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## troutsniffer

Flourite isn't the same. But it stores nutrients and lasts the life of the tank. 

Of course I was speaking for long term use. Flourite isn't the greatest but it truly does last forever. Aqua soils don't. Neither does dirt, but with dirt you have the advantage of adding stuff to it to make it past a really long time. And it's cheap.


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## troutsniffer

2wheelsx2 said:


> Dang, and I didn't know. I am going to shovel a bunch of glacial lacustrine clay from my backyard and grow some Wisteria and win that AGA Aquascaping contest next year! W00t!
> 
> AGA Aquascaping Contest
> 
> Wait how come all of those contestants are using ADA? Suckers!


Are you entering aquascaping contests?

They use ADA because it's good to scape with. Hence the word aquascape...

If you had a plant growth contest I guarantee dirt will grow plants faster and just as healthy. Easpecially in a larger tank.

Maybe we should stay on topic though instead of getting upset.


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## Dou

If its good to aquascape with, doesn't that mean it grows plants well? I think you are insinuating that anyone that buys a product you don't support is a sucker which is why he's getting upset. There's a reason why it's pricier - because you have the guarantee that it does not come with pests, it has been treated and you know what you can do with it (proven results from aquascapers). If you could choose between 50$ aquasoil or 6$ worth of dirt but the dirt may contain bacteria, viruses or w/e that could kill your fish and/or your shrimp - what would anyone go with? You are paying for a known commodity and that's the cost of it. Some people like to spend their hard-earned money on designer bags, beers, guns and other people like to use it to buy aquasoil.

//Edit

@troutsniffer: I just also want to add that its harder for people to accept your opinion when you don't provide any evidence. Sure it makes sense, there are books, but have you actually done it yourself and ran tests? This doesn't have to be a win-lose situation for those who buy aquasoil and for those who don't. If you phrase it like "For those who can afford it, great for them. For those who can't, there is an alternative called dirt. It's what's being used in nature and it costs way less. It may be inconsistent but that's just one of the downsides." I think people would be more receptive and also spark a better discussion regarding the results.


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## DunderBear

Yeah it's all about personal opinion honestly I'd rather spend MY money on aquasoil over dirt because it's hella messy and you never know how consistent it is. Not saying aquasoil isn't messy but it's definitely cleaner IMO.


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## battmanh

troutsniffer said:


> I don't want to offend anyone here, but it seems like you guys just want to justify your knack for being a sucker.


So you don't want to offend anyone here but you're going to do it anyways.

I don't know enough about dirt to say anything about it but if you truly believe it is a better option for growing plants and aquascaping then I'd like to hear more about it. However, I've looked through your posts but haven't found anything that indicates that you grow anything other than easy-to-grow plants (wisteria, moss, hornwort, Ludwigia repens) so I don't think I would take your word for it. All I can say is that it seems to be worth it being a "sucker" for ADA aquasoil if we are getting good results with plant growth.

On-topic:
How the hell did you spend 5k+ on the tank Drew?! I'd like to see this tank. Even with all my tanks and several years of being the hobby I haven't touched close to that.


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## MDT

Just to chime in, but "dirt" and "soil" is as much of a generic and loose term as saying "rock". Lots of good stuff and not so good stuff out there that people can purchase. Some work fine, others can be very dangerous to use in an aquarium.

So how do we know which one is best for our needs? Do we know the dirt or soil we are purchasing is pure and clean? Do we know it's non-toxic to the living things we plan to care for in there? Do we know which fertilizers inside the soil could be harmful or harmless to aquatic organisms?

Well ADA soil exists because it answers those questions and more. It's reliable, clean and effective. It's no secret as to why so many aquascapers use it, myself included. Trust me, before I used ADA soil, I didn't really believe it could be this great, but it really is. The brand is also highly respected and trusted, as they often provide top of the line products. But with such an effective product obviously comes a more inflated price. That is the cost of using premium product. No one is a fool for using ADA, neither are people fools if they use dirt. But aquasoil caters to a different market. It takes the difficulty out of finding the right "dirt" for your tank and rolls it all into one bag, ADA being easily the king in terms of aquasoil. I'm also trying Tropica which is much cheaper and I'm really really liking it so far too.

It's one of those products you gotta use to really appreciate.

Also one more thing... Fluval stratum (which is like low end aquasoil) might turn to mud, but what do you call soil/dirt that gets saturated in water...


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## 2wheelsx2

A few points.

Whether I enter aquascaping contests or not I do aquascape because isn't that the whole point of planting? I am not farming so hence the example of wisteria.

And no you will not grow anything faster with plain soil than injecting CO2 and using ADA Aqua soil. Not in this universe or any other.

And just because I used a little sarcasm doesn't mean I am upside. I just found some who isn't trying to offend anyone while calling them sicker funny so I made a sarcastic post. I stopped being offended by posts on BCA .....oh.... it must be a good 3 years now. I got better things to do with my time. But I couldn't let a nonsensical posts full of unsupported claims ruin the choice of a great product for other users have not used it. And I can bet you have not used ADA Aquasoil. 

ADA has some snake oil products but Aquasoil isn't one of them.

Also a previous poster's point about "dirt" is correct. Hence my specific example of glacial lacustrine soil. I know quite a bit about soil so I know varved clays won't grow plants like volcanic ash does.


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## charlie1

Folks , this is the nature of forums.
Anyone can & do make wild unsupported statements, even get very personable as demonstrated here.
Please don`t afford further time & effort to the poster in question.
Regards
Know better , do better


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## charlie1

Redshrimp2709 said:


> Overhead costs of pet stores aside, I've spent more than 5K within the setup period of my 90G and the cost of maintainance for the plants only is about $40 to $50 per month, including CO2 injection. I'm frustrated because most of my years of aquarium experience was from 13 to 20 years ago when things were very different and a "dirt" tank or "nature aquarium" were concepts I never heard of (of course planted aquariums and Dutch planted aquariums existed). I could've just picked branches from a creek in Hope or even just in North Burnaby. I should've picked river pebbles and stones from there. A lot of pebbles in the region are inert and do not release any unwanted minerals or chemicals to harden water. If branches risk toxins leaching into the water, I can guarantee that if you buy branches designed for birds to perch on at pet stores, they are safe and less than 75% of the cost. I wish I wasn't so uninformed re-entering the hobby. Of course, some types of hardscape cannot simply be picked up for free off the side of a creek, but there's more.
> 
> Now with YouTube and learning of aquarists, especially outside of Canada, saying they've spent very little money on lighting and ferts, I'm wondering if I've been throwing money away on Kessil lights, Tropica soil, and Tropica ferts when others are using garden variety dirt and dry ferts and clamp on desk lamps with CFL's or LED panels you can get for $70.
> 
> I'm curous how many planted aquarium hobbyist willingly spend money on products exclusively designed and marketed just for aquarium plants, and how many just go to Home Depot to get most of what they need. ADA may at times, be an exception because I not only see the quality of their equipment and their aquariums, but some of their supplies, additives, stones and wood, are so unique, they can only be found and imported from select places in the world. That being said I would be tempted to cut costs in areas where I find it is practical to do so. I think ferts is a good example. Dry ferts anyone?
> 
> Cheers.


I personally cut cost for example by using other equipment, that can structurally work & perform just as good or even better at times than the high ticket gear.
Things like the tank itself, ( fire star fire kock offs of ADA - 350 to 1000.00) filters eg. quality Eheim as opposed to stainless steel filters, DIY stands, lighting etc.
As to planted substrates, i have used Flourite, eco complete, Fluval, ADA, Tropica & have good success with all, the key is understanding the products pros & cons & how it fits in your environment ( water parameters etc.).
In fact on of my most loved tank & scape was started years ago when Fluval soil first launched, & is still in use in that tank to this day, so much for all the various speculations.
Regards


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

troutsniffer said:


> I don't want to offend anyone here, but it seems like you guys just want to justify your knack for being a sucker.
> 
> Having money to buy expensive stuff, and doing so because of a brand name, still makes you a sucker. And don't worry, we're ALL guilty of that. But the point is, it shouldn't cost that much in the first place!


Now I can't imagine anyone getting offended by someone else calling them a "sucker". 

Why just the other day I called my wife a "Sucker!" and she gave me a great big kiss in return.:bigsmile:


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## troutsniffer

You guys need to relax. I said I was a sucker too, we all are in some degree or another. 

My point is, there's just as good options out there you can use that work better. I push dirt on people because I know what I'm doing and have used the overpriced stuff before and it simply isn't as good for growing plants. 

BTW the plants I have mentioned, gave away,etc on the forum come from my low tech tanks. So no need to obsess over me and trail my posts. Besides, that's a little creepy.


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## DunderBear

troutsniffer said:


> You guys need to relax. I said I was a sucker too, we all are in some degree or another.
> 
> My point is, there's just as good options out there you can use that work better. I push dirt on people because I know what I'm doing and have used the overpriced stuff before and it simply isn't as good for growing plants.
> 
> BTW the plants I have mentioned, gave away,etc on the forum come from my low tech tanks. So no need to obsess over me and trail my posts. Besides, that's a little creepy.


Not exactly creepy to stalk someone on a forum. People are just trying to get facts straight such as if you have any actual proof to the matter.


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## battmanh

troutsniffer said:


> You guys need to relax. I said I was a sucker too, we all are in some degree or another.
> 
> My point is, there's just as good options out there you can use that work better. I push dirt on people because I know what I'm doing and have used the overpriced stuff before and it simply isn't as good for growing plants.
> 
> BTW the plants I have mentioned, gave away,etc on the forum come from my low tech tanks. So no need to obsess over me and trail my posts. Besides, that's a little creepy.


That's just how I roll :lol:


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## troutsniffer

DunderBear said:


> Not exactly creepy to stalk someone on a forum. People are just trying to get facts straight such as if you have any actual proof to the matter.


And using the fact that I give away easy to grow plants and have trouble growing a few easy plants proves anything how? Seems like a tactic to throw a fit and batter fists because of what I said. Why wasn't even bad in the first place.

I'm not a scientist and I believe everything Diana walstad researched to be true, and not what takashi amano says to sell his product line. You want proof dirt is better, try it and stop pandering over little things.


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## charlie1

Right from the horses mouth - " if you want to keep difficult plants , high tech is the way to go"
" 2 different approaches for 2 different results"
Personally never heard her say one is better than the other.


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## Goundar2010

I have a 20G long. Heavily planted and aquascaped. I had bought a api filstar xp-m, but I don't use it anymore. The tank has no filter. Lighting is a Fluval Aqualife Plant LED. Substrate to be x2 20lb Eco-Complete bags. With equipment I've spent $455. I use the pond matrix for my filtration media when ever my pump is on. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## Dou

troutsniffer said:


> And using the fact that I give away easy to grow plants and have trouble growing a few easy plants proves anything how? Seems like a tactic to throw a fit and batter fists because of what I said. Why wasn't even bad in the first place.
> 
> I'm not a scientist and I believe everything Diana walstad researched to be true, and not what takashi amano says to sell his product line. You want proof dirt is better, try it and stop pandering over little things.


Google/look at the aquariums that have Takashi Amano have created. Now Google/look at the aquariums that he has been asked to put together in different countries. Think about why his brand stands at the top and how it has inspired others to take on the hobby. Now google and try to find the best dirted tanks. There's your proof. I don't know how else to be polite about this but YOU'RE WRONG. I'm sorry but you are. It's really not about who's right or wrong but when you say things that might confuse other new hobbyists then it needs to be pointed out. For aquascaping purposes, go with aquasoil. Save up longer if you have to. It's worth it.


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## troutsniffer

Well, agree to disagree. ADA is practically dirt. But it's properties are changed most likely using heat, more than likely destroying some of the nutrients. Dirt is softer and easier for plants to grow roots. It is actually nature after all.


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## 2wheelsx2

As a geologist who is married to a chemist, I am curious to know which nutrients are destroyed by heat. The only thing which are driven out by heat of lower temperatures are volatiles and the water of hydrous minerals. To change the properties of most minerals one would need to heat the minerals to temperatures achievable in commercial analytical labs.

First you say dirt is better than ADA and then you say ADA is practically dirt. 

Then you keep discussing your experience. So how much experience do you have that you can discount the experience the collective experience of the many members who have participated in this thread?

Facts to back up your arguments would be nice. We are not asking for your CV but numbers and concrete details..for example that you are able to grow Downoi and Buce species better with potting soil than ADA. I won't even rehash the "dirt" discussion as someone has already pointed out that dirt can mean beach sand to humus to clay to fine gravel. Since I spent almost 6 years in the Canadian north collecting "dirt" and analyzing the inorganic mineral content in it I dare say I know quite a bit about "dirt" and how ADA is not almost dirt.


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## Luke78

Gary,

As the phrase goes " you can lead a horse to water,but you can't make them drink it". Why even bother explaining yourself ain't worth your time or efforts.



2wheelsx2 said:


> As a geologist who is married to a chemist, I am curious to know which nutrients are destroyed by heat. The only thing which are driven out by heat of lower temperatures are volatiles and the water of hydrous minerals. To change the properties of most minerals one would need to heat the minerals to temperatures achievable in commercial analytical labs.
> 
> First you say dirt is better than ADA and then you say ADA is practically dirt.
> 
> Then you keep discussing your experience. So how much experience do you have that you can discount the experience the collective experience of the many members who have participated in this thread?
> 
> Facts to back up your arguments would be nice. We are not asking for your CV but numbers and concrete details..for example that you are able to grow Downoi and Buce species better with potting soil than ADA. I won't even rehash the "dirt" discussion as someone has already pointed out that dirt can mean beach sand to humus to clay to fine gravel. Since I spent almost 6 years in the Canadian north collecting "dirt" and analyzing the inorganic mineral content in it I dare say I know quite a bit about "dirt" and how ADA is not almost dirt.


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## Redshrimp2709

Hi everyone,

Again, it looks like I have inadvertantly started controversy and arguments *sigh*. Thank you _Troutsniffer_ for your input and to be fair, I agree that a low tech, dirt aquarium can be just as beautiful, but in a way that may not appeal to everyone. Nonetheless, if you look at say, the Vancouver Aquarium, and biotope aquariums, there is an authentic feel that is hard to get, even in a nicely planted aquariums. That's why I like to occasionally watch Ivan Mikolji ("The Fish Guys) on YouTube because it gives me the most comprehensive insight into the Amazon and where many of our aquarium fish naturally come from.

That being said, just from some of the footage taken underwater in clearwater rivers and basins, some of Takashi Amano's aquascapes emanate and reflect such natural scapes. On top of that I agree with Dou that his aquariums are virtually second to none in the freshwater world. I do think regular river dirt, or even garden variety top soil has its place in a beautiful freshwater aquarium, but there are some inconvenient risks involved. This is what I have learned, and that products such as ADA soil helps one bypass risks such as parasites hitchhiking into the aquarium.

Other than that, the intention of this post was to find ways to cut costs as I am new in returning to the aquarium hobby that has changed so much since I was last involved. I think lighting and buying plants and fish from other hobbyists is a great start. I've learned that getting sand from a river or from a pool supply store can really help cut costs as well. I will likely pick common pebbles from a local river instead of spend a fortune at a pet store. I will however, balance it out. There are some things that you just have to buy from a pet store or from another hobbyist, and it may be expensive.

Thanks everyone, including _Troutsniffer_ for your suggestions and information.


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## DunderBear

Redshrimp2709 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Again, it looks like I have inadvertantly started controversy and arguments *sigh*. Thank you _Troutsniffer_ for your imput and to be fair, I agree that a low tech, dirt aquarium can be just as beautiful, but in a way that may not appeal to everyone. Nonetheless, if you look at say, the Vancouver Aquarium, and biotope aquariums, there is an authentic feel that is hard to get, even in a nicely planted aquariums. That's why I like to occasionally watch Ivan Mikolji ("The Fish Guys) on YouTube because it give you the most comprehensive insight into the Amazon and where many of our aquarium fish actually come from.
> 
> That being said, just from some of the footage on aquatic landscapes and their plants, some of Takashi Amano's aquascapes really do give that similar look and feel. On top of that I agree with Dou that his aquariums are virtually second to none in the freshwater world. I do think regular river dirt, or even garden variety top soil has its place in a beautiful freshwater aquarium, but there are some inconvenient risks involved. This is what I have learned, and that products such as ADA soil helps one bypass risks such as parasites hitchhiking into the aquarium.
> 
> Other than that, the intention of this post was to find ways to cut costs as I am new in returning to the aquarium hobby that has changed so much since I was last involved. I think lighting and buying plants and fish from other hobbyists is a great start. I've learned that getting sand from a river or from a pool supply store can really help cut costs as well. I will likely pick common pebbles from a local river instead of spend a fortune at a pet store. I will however, balance it out. There are some things that you just have to buy from a pet store or from another hobbyist, and it may be expensive.
> 
> Thanks everyone, including _Troutsniffer_ for your suggestions and information.


I also appologize for not being considerate and contributing to the banter and arguments once again. Was just trying to prove my point like everyone else has done, I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Thanks -Kai


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## mikebike

as a kid in the '50's I found I could buy chicken grit at the feed store much cheaper than gravel at the pet store.

I bought a 50# bag a few years ago from Otter-Co op, for my guppy tanks and a base for plants.
In the ponds I use the perforated plastic pond pots with the grit to hold the roots and sink the pots/containers.


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## troutsniffer

2wheelsx2 said:


> As a geologist who is married to a chemist, I am curious to know which nutrients are destroyed by heat. The only thing which are driven out by heat of lower temperatures are volatiles and the water of hydrous minerals. To change the properties of most minerals one would need to heat the minerals to temperatures achievable in commercial analytical labs.
> 
> First you say dirt is better than ADA and then you say ADA is practically dirt.
> 
> Then you keep discussing your experience. So how much experience do you have that you can discount the experience the collective experience of the many members who have participated in this thread?
> 
> Facts to back up your arguments would be nice. We are not asking for your CV but numbers and concrete details..for example that you are able to grow Downoi and Buce species better with potting soil than ADA. I won't even rehash the "dirt" discussion as someone has already pointed out that dirt can mean beach sand to humus to clay to fine gravel. Since I spent almost 6 years in the Canadian north collecting "dirt" and analyzing the inorganic mineral content in it I dare say I know quite a bit about "dirt" and how ADA is not almost dirt.


Sorry, I didn't realize one had to be a geologist or chemist to make any claims. If you know so much about dirt, why do you want specifics? All of us who have dirted tanks call it "dirt" because the synonym for dirt is soil, clay, etc. Which is what we typically use in our tanks. Besides, if you aren't here just to argue over a brand, why listen to me since you apparently know better?

I guess if I find some time soon I can try to find something on ze Google about how heat destroys nutrients. I can say though that it's common knowledge in horticulture that this happens since many growers heat treat first for pests and have to compensate with fertilizer. I don't think any potting mixes for growing plants or vegetables of any kind is heat treated.

It's cool that you have a cool profession as your wife does, but no need to brag. This is all just semantics because neither of us are experts. But it's hard to argue with nature vs commercially made. Dirt will always be softer and easier for plants to root, and aqua soil will always be easier to move around. Not much of a trade off considering the price between the two.


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## 2wheelsx2

troutsniffer said:


> Sorry, I didn't realize one had to be a geologist or chemist to make any claims. If you know so much about dirt, why do you want specifics? All of us who have dirted tanks call it "dirt" because the synonym for dirt is soil, clay, etc. Which is what we typically use in our tanks. Besides, if you aren't here just to argue over a brand, why listen to me since you apparently know better?


No you don't have to be qualified to have an opinion but if you want to have an informed one, of course you do. Otherwise anyone can build bridges, find gold deposits and construct hydroelectric dams. Why let science and knowledge get in the way of opinions. After all it was "common knowledge" and misunderstanding of static load vs. dynamic load which caused the collapse of the parking lot at Save On Foods in Burnaby.

The reason I state my qualifications is not to impress anyone but to qualify my opinion. In my profession I do so by signing P. Eng. at the end of my reports. I didn't think qualifying my opinion would offend anyone since having a P. Eng. doesn't qualify me to grow plants better than anyone.

I too have to apologize to BCA members for perpetuating this argument but I didn't want any members learning to grow plants to think that "dirt" is king.

I will now go back to raising my "fish" in salt water because fish is a synonym for discus and and it is common knowledge among fish keepers that all fish live in cool water with salt. I wonder why my discus keep dying?

With that, I leave this thread alone.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

troutsniffer said:


> Sorry, I didn't realize one had to be a geologist or chemist to make any claims. If you know so much about dirt, why do you want specifics? All of us who have dirted tanks call it "dirt" because the synonym for dirt is soil, clay, etc. Which is what we typically use in our tanks. Besides, if you aren't here just to argue over a brand, why listen to me since you apparently know better?
> 
> It's cool that you have a cool profession as your wife does, but no need to brag. This is all just semantics because neither of us are experts.


Let me preface the following with a "I don't want to offend anyone here" (cause apparently that's all it takes to make everything hunkydory), but...

Actually, 2wheelsx2's education and years of field work as a geologist, along with this wife's chemistry background DOES make him/them EXPERTS in this topic of discussion, so it's NOT "all just SEMANTICS". Expert = someone with the knowledge, experience, education, years of field work in the subject of discussion.

It seems that YOU are actually the one "here just to argue" since you make these claims, others ask for evidence to back your claims, and you provide none other than to tout your own experience. Yet you shut down your last "dirt" tank due to "hitchhikers" (which is semantically another name for unwanted pests/parasites/nasties). You also claim to have given away lots of plants which have grown in your "dirt" tank (the same tank with the hitchhikers) to other aquarists, but never mentioned if they unwittingly received the same hitchhikers that caused YOU to shut down your own "dirt" tank.

Somehow, your experience counts for everything (as far as you're concerned) and everyone else's experience, education and actual working in this field counts for nothing, cause as long as they do not agree with your advocacy of using any old "dirt" from whatever source as substrate for their planted tanks, then they're all "SUCKERS" and you're the only non-sucker for buying a shovel instead of bags of substrate. BTW, asking what type of "dirt" you recommend is actually relevant to the discussion because it makes a world of difference to a tank and the plants if it is dirt with lots of clay versus lots of humus/organic matter, sand, silt, etc. NOT all dirt is equal and some types would be disastrous to a planted tank if added without knowing its composition.

I hope I've summarized your position on this matter correctly.

I'm not an expert... (at least not on really advanced planted tanks) but I would at least be open-minded to what people who are successfully keeping really beautiful, healthy, hitchhiker-free tanks that are still running, especially if they have the education/training/experience to back their advice/claims, instead of calling them names and poo-pooing what they have to say.

Now back to the topic of discussion:

As per my own low-tech planted tanks, I've either used regular river gravel or used "brand-name" substrates I picked up from other members who changed out their own tanks' substrates. Both these options helped me reduce my costs.

I used Metricide, instead of the more expensive Excel, and a gallon jug only costs about $20-25 and lasts a long time.

I used CFL Daylight bulbs (usually Phillips brand) cause these lights grew my plants well without the need for expensive aquarium plant lights.

However, I've always been more of a "fish" guy, than a true planted tank guy, so these inexpensive, low tech alternatives were good enough for what I wanted/needed.

Anthony


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## charlie1

troutsniffer said:


> Sorry, I didn't realize one had to be a geologist or chemist to make any claims. If you know so much about dirt, why do you want specifics? All of us who have dirted tanks call it "dirt" because the synonym for dirt is soil, clay, etc. Which is what we typically use in our tanks. Besides, if you aren't here just to argue over a brand, why listen to me since you apparently know better?
> 
> I guess if I find some time soon I can try to find something on ze Google about how heat destroys nutrients. I can say though that it's common knowledge in horticulture that this happens since many growers heat treat first for pests and have to compensate with fertilizer. I don't think any potting mixes for growing plants or vegetables of any kind is heat treated.
> 
> It's cool that you have a cool profession as your wife does, but no need to brag. This is all just semantics because neither of us are experts. But it's hard to argue with nature vs commercially made. Dirt will always be softer and easier for plants to root, and aqua soil will always be easier to move around. Not much of a trade off considering the price between the two.


I don`t usually get embroiled in these discussions, but this is the exception in the name of clarification of wild claims with no proof scientific or otherwise. 
I have been following your willy nilly claims & feel oblige to ask a few questions.
What kind of experience do you have in the planted tank hobby?
Have you read the book "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" ?, have you even looked & listened to the interview i posted the link to?
How did you arrive at the conclusion that " Dirt grows plant faster than commercial planted soil", have you done both in a controlled environment & found this to be so?
Please reply in a constructive manner supporting your answers & avoid the personal stuff.
I can tell you to each of my questions, i can personally answer yes, my experience sums up in excess of 18 years in the planted tank hobby, sat in on a few presentations from knowledgeable individuals.
Looking forward to a constructive & educational discussion.
Regards


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## Reckon

Wow 5k is a lot for a single tank! I may be approaching that cost but I love uncommon plants, planted tanks, aquascaping, and new technology. So between buying buces, LEDs, ADA substrate, contingency CO2 setups, various sunk costs such as buffers and medication, and overfiltering my tanks I approximate I've spent about 4k over the past 5 years I've been in the hobby. 

One of the most impressive planted tanks I've ever seen was set up by an older man from whom I bought my first co2 kit from. He told me his substrate was simply organic miracle gro capped with gravel. His plants grew very well though he was only keeping the more basic species, anubais, cryptocorynes, hygrophilas, etc. Whilst his plants grew very well, there wasn't much dimension to his tank, the substrate was mainly flat and he simply used a few pieces of wood to break up the layout of the tank. The two major weaknesses to using dirt as a substrate is 1) more challenging in building hills, slopes, valleys for the scape; and 2) difficulty in keeping the tank clean if you regularly remove plants from the substrate since dirt tends to float. This of course may happen regularly if you have lots of stem plants (ie ludwigias) that you have to top (and discard the bottom) in order to reduce legginess, or if you have to adjust your scape over time. 

Fluval, ADA, Eco Complete substrates are "engineered" so they make a hobbyist's life a bit easier. Personally, this is the only area I don't skimp on. So yes, I'm willing to drop a couple hundred for a few bags of Amazonia for a new tank. The nutrients contained within the granules help plant growth, the granules themselves don't float and IMHO their shape/texture makes it easier to plant or scape with. Not to mention that their inherent buffering is something that a lot of hobbyists take for granted. 

Also, if you are looking for a nice sand strictly for aesthetics that you know don't contain harmful contaminants then once again it may be hard to take the cheaper route vs simply buying some ADA Colorado sand. Though I suppose pool filter sand is a reasonable replacement. Troutsniffer's suggestion of Florite seems to be a good compromise - inert but doesn't make a mess and easier to scape with.

I also think it's pretty hard to skimp on the tank itself since it's the whole framework for your hobby.

It's hard to be cheap with filters since they're what keeps your tank healthy though you can certainly try some of the cheaper brands over the pricier Eheim stuff. I personally think the Rena XP filters are excellent bang for buck and very reliable. The wattage costs of running them vs Eheim is practically negligible. Some guys on Facebook groups and reddit swear by the Ebay SunSun brand since their equipment is so affordable. 

If you want to run CO2, I propose my father's advice "deals will always come and go" - so be patient and you'll find a bargain that will come up in the used classifieds section.

Where you can probably find some savings is in ferts (as you suggested, use the dry stuff), metricide vs excel, and lighting (use CFLs).

LED builders are claiming that the advantages of LED fixtures over florescent bulbs are that they: have longer lifespan of bulbs/fixtures, are more efficient in wattage and do not generate as much heat, provide accurate light spectrum for growing plants, are dimmable, have sleek designs, and can also include other perks such as programmable to imitate cloudy, stormy, sunny skies. ALL THIS IS TRUE, but you can STILL grow plants using good ol CFLs at a fraction of the price so if you can do without all the perks of an LED fixture... That being said, assuming the claims of longer bulb/fixture lifespan is true then when considering the cost of your Kessils you have to think long term. You have paid a greater sum up front but in the long run you will save money compared to purchasing florescent bulbs.

In the end, it depends how you want your tank to look and how far you'd go to gain savings. If you wants a simple nature style aquarium, I think you can achieve this with some wood for hardscape, cheaper easier to grow plants like Anubias Barteri, common Cryptocorynes, Java Ferns, and common amazon swords; then just let them grow out and jungly. 

But if you want to setup a Dutch planted tank incorporating challenging Ludwigias or Rotalas and carpeting plants then you will find that spending extra on substrate, co2, lighting, and heck even trimming tools will make your life easier. 

Rock/iwagumi scapes look great but sometimes they can get expensive if you purchase Ryouh or Manten stones. There are similar looking rocks you can find even here in Canada for well, pretty much nothing, if you know where to look. You'll need to make friends with guys like 2wheelx2 for help on IDing those though. I know I practically gave away HUGE amounts of rock that member algaebeater kept - they likely weren't ADA, but they sure looked very similar. Apparently he sourced them from some area that was mined in BC's interior.


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## troutsniffer

SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> Let me preface the following with a "I don't want to offend anyone here" (cause apparently that's all it takes to make everything hunkydory), but...
> 
> Actually, 2wheelsx2's education and years of field work as a geologist, along with this wife's chemistry background DOES make him/them EXPERTS in this topic of discussion, so it's NOT "all just SEMANTICS". Expert = someone with the knowledge, experience, education, years of field work in the subject of discussion.
> 
> It seems that YOU are actually the one "here just to argue" since you make these claims, others ask for evidence to back your claims, and you provide none other than to tout your own experience. Yet you shut down your last "dirt" tank due to "hitchhikers" (which is semantically another name for unwanted pests/parasites/nasties). You also claim to have given away lots of plants which have grown in your "dirt" tank (the same tank with the hitchhikers) to other aquarists, but never mentioned if they unwittingly received the same hitchhikers that caused YOU to shut down your own "dirt" tank.
> 
> Somehow, your experience counts for everything (as far as you're concerned) and everyone else's experience, education and actual working in this field counts for nothing, cause as long as they do not agree with your advocacy of using any old "dirt" from whatever source as substrate for their planted tanks, then they're all "SUCKERS" and you're the only non-sucker for buying a shovel instead of bags of substrate. BTW, asking what type of "dirt" you recommend is actually relevant to the discussion because it makes a world of difference to a tank and the plants if it is dirt with lots of clay versus lots of humus/organic matter, sand, silt, etc. NOT all dirt is equal and some types would be disastrous to a planted tank if added without knowing its composition.
> 
> I hope I've summarized your position on this matter correctly.
> 
> I'm not an expert... (at least not on really advanced planted tanks) but I would at least be open-minded to what people who are successfully keeping really beautiful, healthy, hitchhiker-free tanks that are still running, especially if they have the education/training/experience to back their advice/claims, instead of calling them names and poo-pooing what they have to say.
> 
> Now back to the topic of discussion:
> 
> As per my own low-tech planted tanks, I've either used regular river gravel or used "brand-name" substrates I picked up from other members who changed out their own tanks' substrates. Both these options helped me reduce my costs.
> 
> I used Metricide, instead of the more expensive Excel, and a gallon jug only costs about $20-25 and lasts a long time.
> 
> I used CFL Daylight bulbs (usually Phillips brand) cause these lights grew my plants well without the need for expensive aquarium plant lights.
> 
> However, I've always been more of a "fish" guy, than a true planted tank guy, so these inexpensive, low tech alternatives were good enough for what I wanted/needed.
> 
> Anthony


Well now you're assuming things. That tank has been long shut down, I don't even have the equipment for that tank anymore. Don't accuse me of crap like that, I've never gave away anything with any diseases or anything.

You're also missing the point. A geologist nor a chemist is an expert on plants. Plants WILL root better in dirt than anything else, that's where plants come from and have evolved since the beginning of plant life. It's common sense. ADA hasn't been proven to be better than miracle grow organic potting soil (since we're using specifics, and that's what I use) so what's the point in arguing about it? I essentially said you're a sucker if you spend money on things like ADA. I don't care if you don't like it, deal with it. I certainly don't care if you use it, it's your money to throw away. So stop getting angry and accusing me of giving away plants like I'm dealing out poison to unsuspecting people.

You guys keep asking me about my experience. Well I've had plants in my tanks since I was a kid. There's that. I've read things over the years that have stuck with me, and have experienced failures and success just like you have. What do you want? No, I don't work for miracle grow. I grow plants in the aquarium, and grow plants outside in the summer immersed. Mostly low tech plants WHICH ARE THE ONES I GIVE AWAY. But I also have other plants I grow for myself to put in other tanks. Mostly I just buy tissue cultures and dry start them outside.

But anyways, like I said, go ahead and buy what you want. I'm a sucker too for buying stuff. I said that before. You shouldn't take that to heart. I thought most of us can be grown men on a forum like this, but I could be wrong.

Anyways, Reckon, there's flourite sand too. But flourite is super dirty at first. Much worse than anything else besides dirt. It lasts longer than anything else though because it's a clay base and can hold nutrients for a very long time before they're used.

PS, alot of people will use dirt with low tech tanks because most common plants you can buy readily are easy to grow root feeders that thrive in dirt no matter what you do, like amazon swords for example. And MGOC potting soil is what everyone goes for, is cheap, and readily available. Not because it can't grow anything else, which is what some people who have no experience with it may assume.


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## Redshrimp2709

@ troutsniffer & SeaHorse_Fanatic

Plants evolved to grow in dirt makes perfect sense to me, and the same goes with many of the stem plants in the hobby as they are not true, 100% aquatic with few exceptions. Even so I would imagine Vals, Hornwort and Cabomba species can also do well rooted in dirt. Plants evolved for dirt since the beginning of plant life? No - not that it's a big deal - but a reminder that plants evolved from floating algae and became more complex from there. There are many types of plants, esp. aquatic plants that do not require any kind of substrate whatsoever. Some prefer to be anchored to stone or wood. My question though is the laterite... Those white grains in soil - are they toxic to aquarium livestock aside from plants?

Thanks SeaHorse for the tip on CFL's. I think I will consider using Philip's daylight bulbs for some of my future aquatic projects. Anyone else use these to grow moderately demanding plants? Or are they just good for stuff like vals, java ferns and java moss? I'm thinking of growing bylxa japonica in my second aquarium I haven't set up yet. 

And guys, allow me to remind everyone again, to try to be civil and non-accusatory with each other despite our different approaches, preferences and views. I love Amano's Nature aquariums and that is a goal for my second setup. My current 90G is more of a hybrid Dutch/Nature Aquarium in look and is high-tech. For 10 years in the hobby when I first entered the hobby, I was all about low tech and biotope aquariums. I'm now considering a biotope 5G breeder tank since a free 5G landed on my lap.


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## charlie1

Deleted , no need to engage further


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## Reckon

Redshrimp2709 said:


> Thanks SeaHorse for the tip on CFL's. I think I will consider using Philip's daylight bulbs for some of my future aquatic projects. Anyone else use these to grow moderately demanding plants? Or are they just good for stuff like vals, java ferns and java moss? I'm thinking of growing bylxa japonica in my second aquarium I haven't set up yet.


From my experience daylight CFLs will pretty much grow anything. All you need to consider is how many bulbs you want to use. I'd start with fewer lights then add more based on whether you see if your plants are growing healthily.

Also, I used to grow Blyxa Japonica pretty easily - to the point where I had carpeted my entire 30gal with the stuff, so I'm sure that with the basics (substrate, co2, light) you should be successful with them. They're heavy root feeders so you don't even really need to dose much into the water column.


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## Tropica North America

Obviously, full disclosure is that work for Tropica North America.

I can appreciate the OP for their view with respect to costs, but it must be stated that not all products are equal. There are a number of ways that a hobbyist can approach a planted tank and some methods will produce better results than others. There are great number of variables in a planted aquarium and to focus on one element (substrate material) is misguided. Other factors such as lighting, CO2, fertilization, plant species, etc. will all have a profound impact on success.

With that said, the differences between "dirt" and soil products such Tropica Soil and ADA products are numerous. They are completely different products with different compositions. I will state that the Tropica soil is "baked" but that is for purposes of sterilizing the product, however this process does not affect the product itself. It is up to the individual as to what product they would want to use as either product requires a bit of a different approach. Both have pros and cons, but it will come down to a personal preference for the decision as to what product to use.


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## April

Nice to have a Tropica rep here. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tropica North America

Thanks April, I do keep an eye on topics here. I will try to post when I feel I can add to a thread and when my time permits.

Kyle Nelson


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## Redshrimp2709

I used Tropica aqua soil for my 90G planted tank and it's been great! It's been over a year and my plants are doing well. The photo is of my 90G in its infancy, a month after being full cycled and established. It has since blossomed and evolved with my taste and mood. Great product. I have also used Tropica liquid Ferts for the past year and it's been great, except I wasn't using it properly until only recently, but I still had great results. 

At the end of the day I think that Tropica, ADA, and other trusted brands all established different, but reputable and trusted approaches. It's a matter of personal taste, budget, etc.


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## troutsniffer

I think tropica substrate is a different story. One that I haven't tried yet but am willing to. As far as ADA goes and fluval stratum, those just eventually turn to mud and seem to lose nutrients as well over time. I don't hate all ADA products though, I'm a fan of their canister filters. It's just too bad it's branded ADA and way over priced. 

The thing I really hate about aquarium "soil" is the fact that to get optimal plant growth out of them you have to buy the powder as well. which drives the cost even higher just to get that ultra soft substrate for plants to root in. I didn't mention it before, but none of these aquarium soils have an impact on co2 naturally like using actual soil does . Anything that's inert will not have the same effect on a planted tank, especially if you supplement with clay and worm castings.

If someone wants to pay out the ass for this stuff it's not my problem as I've said before. But you're just buying into a brand most of the time. People in this industry claim things are good for your fish or plants when it's simply a fact that alot of products out there aren't the most effective, and just because nothing dies, they brand it as beneficial because they can get away with it. Kinda like how "experts" say to over filter your tanks and people go out and spend hundreds of dollars on multiple canister filters. Meanwhile, the biological process is barely being used. I simply don't like seeing people wasting their money, especially when they have the money to waste!


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## Dou

troutsniffer said:


> I think tropica substrate is a different story. One that I haven't tried yet but am willing to. As far as ADA goes and fluval stratum, those just eventually turn to mud and seem to lose nutrients as well over time. I don't hate all ADA products though, I'm a fan of their canister filters. It's just too bad it's branded ADA and way over priced.
> 
> The thing I really hate about aquarium "soil" is the fact that to get optimal plant growth out of them you have to buy the powder as well. which drives the cost even higher just to get that ultra soft substrate for plants to root in. I didn't mention it before, but none of these aquarium soils have an impact on co2 naturally like using actual soil does . Anything that's inert will not have the same effect on a planted tank, especially if you supplement with clay and worm castings.
> 
> If someone wants to pay out the ass for this stuff it's not my problem as I've said before. But you're just buying into a brand most of the time. People in this industry claim things are good for your fish or plants when it's simply a fact that alot of products out there aren't the most effective, and just because nothing dies, they brand it as beneficial because they can get away with it. Kinda like how "experts" say to over filter your tanks and people go out and spend hundreds of dollars on multiple canister filters. Meanwhile, the biological process is barely being used. I simply don't like seeing people wasting their money, especially when they have the money to waste!


I'm pretty sure Tropica Aquasoil costs the same if not more than ADA. I have tried it and it also turns to mud. Hope to see some journals coming from you and experiments describing all your findings.


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## charlie1

troutsniffer said:


> I think tropica substrate is a different story. One that I haven't tried yet but am willing to. As far as ADA goes and fluval stratum, those just eventually turn to mud and seem to lose nutrients as well over time. I don't hate all ADA products though, I'm a fan of their canister filters. It's just too bad it's branded ADA and way over priced.
> 
> The thing I really hate about aquarium "soil" is the fact that to get optimal plant growth out of them you have to buy the powder as well. which drives the cost even higher just to get that ultra soft substrate for plants to root in. I didn't mention it before, but none of these aquarium soils have an impact on co2 naturally like using actual soil does . Anything that's inert will not have the same effect on a planted tank, especially if you supplement with clay and worm castings.
> 
> If someone wants to pay out the ass for this stuff it's not my problem as I've said before. But you're just buying into a brand most of the time. People in this industry claim things are good for your fish or plants when it's simply a fact that alot of products out there aren't the most effective, and just because nothing dies, they brand it as beneficial because they can get away with it. Kinda like how "experts" say to over filter your tanks and people go out and spend hundreds of dollars on multiple canister filters. Meanwhile, the biological process is barely being used. I simply don't like seeing people wasting their money, especially when they have the money to waste!


You are so misinformed, it`s comical, sure looks like your only intent is to champion a method you like.


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## Tropica North America

troutsniffer said:


> I think tropica substrate is a different story. One that I haven't tried yet but am willing to. As far as ADA goes and fluval stratum, those just eventually turn to mud and seem to lose nutrients as well over time.


All the testing that Tropica has done with our Soil products have shown that the granules hold up very well over extended periods of time. Our test tanks in our R&D labs (as well as staff tanks) have not turned to "mud". An item of note is that these are tanks that are set up and run with little to no disturbance of the soil.

As for losing nutrients, your information is not quite correct. The nature of the material will bind the minerals in the water and store them in the granules for the plants to use (simple explanation). As with any closed system, there is a finite amount of nutrients available in an aquarium for the plants. The same would apply to "dirt". This necessitates the need to have to dose fertilizers.



> The thing I really hate about aquarium "soil" is the fact that to get optimal plant growth out of them you have to buy the powder as well. which drives the cost even higher just to get that ultra soft substrate for plants to root in. I didn't mention it before, but none of these aquarium soils have an impact on co2 naturally like using actual soil does . Anything that's inert will not have the same effect on a planted tank, especially if you supplement with clay and worm castings.


Tropica does not produce or sell a powder that is to be used in conjunction with our soil.

As I mentioned, for optimum plant growth, there are other factors that cannot be ignored. Plants require a balance of light, CO2, and fertilization in order to achieve that optimum growth. You seem hyper focused on substrates which is may not be the most appropriate area to place it. What you will find with our soil is that the pH and the general hardness of water will be reduced. Again, this is due to the granules binding the available minerals in the water. This, in turn, will affect the CO2 concentrations required in the water as there is a direct relationship between all three. This can get somewhat technical, but I would rather leave that out of this discussion.



> If someone wants to pay out the ass for this stuff it's not my problem as I've said before. But you're just buying into a brand most of the time. People in this industry claim things are good for your fish or plants when it's simply a fact that alot of products out there aren't the most effective, and just because nothing dies, they brand it as beneficial because they can get away with it. Kinda like how "experts" say to over filter your tanks and people go out and spend hundreds of dollars on multiple canister filters. Meanwhile, the biological process is barely being used. I simply don't like seeing people wasting their money, especially when they have the money to waste!


You obviously have strong feelings towards brand name products and the cost of them, which is fine. Not all brand name products are the same nor are they the same as DIY items such as "dirt". It's your choice to use whatever approach to a successful tank that you feel fits your needs and budget. I'll leave you one last item to be food for thought...soil is really heavy and therefore the shipping costs reflect it.


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## troutsniffer

Tropica North America said:


> All the testing that Tropica has done with our Soil products have shown that the granules hold up very well over extended periods of time. Our test tanks in our R&D labs (as well as staff tanks) have not turned to "mud". An item of note is that these are tanks that are set up and run with little to no disturbance of the soil.
> 
> As for losing nutrients, your information is not quite correct. The nature of the material will bind the minerals in the water and store them in the granules for the plants to use (simple explanation). As with any closed system, there is a finite amount of nutrients available in an aquarium for the plants. The same would apply to "dirt". This necessitates the need to have to dose fertilizers.
> 
> Tropica does not produce or sell a powder that is to be used in conjunction with our soil.
> 
> As I mentioned, for optimum plant growth, there are other factors that cannot be ignored. Plants require a balance of light, CO2, and fertilization in order to achieve that optimum growth. You seem hyper focused on substrates which is may not be the most appropriate area to place it. What you will find with our soil is that the pH and the general hardness of water will be reduced. Again, this is due to the granules binding the available minerals in the water. This, in turn, will affect the CO2 concentrations required in the water as there is a direct relationship between all three. This can get somewhat technical, but I would rather leave that out of this discussion.
> 
> You obviously have strong feelings towards brand name products and the cost of them, which is fine. Not all brand name products are the same nor are they the same as DIY items such as "dirt". It's your choice to use whatever approach to a successful tank that you feel fits your needs and budget. I'll leave you one last item to be food for thought...soil is really heavy and therefore the shipping costs reflect it.


Aquarium soil costs what it does because of what it's advertised for and it's target consumer , not because of shipping. Just go into any store that sells any type of aquarium soil and the difference in price vs weight is tremendous. Any decent gravel will also be processed to make it colored, inert, etc and still there's a large difference in price. I dislike any product that is overpriced for what it is, not branding. And IMO aquarium soil is beyond overpriced. It's not a big mystery really. Overpriced=bad.


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## Luke78

Multiple views,experiences,knowledge,proof, etc yet u still come up empty handed to all these responses. You decide to denounce and insult individuals in the sciences field and product fields ,and still nothing viable or worthy coming from you. Just stop making yourself look like a fool and give it a rest. Tropica rep nailed in their last paragraph, do us a favour and let that sink in for a minute.


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## troutsniffer

Neither have you. He's a sales rep and is selling you a pitch. Using dirt has the exact same qualities as he explained (or lack thereof) in his last post. Just do your own research on it, do you think I'm lying? It's all readily available. Want me to write a book for you that you won't even read?


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## Luke78

I ain't screaming or whining like a little child who's not getting their way. I will not be afraid to call u out on these posts either. As per the topic at hand ,I've crossed paths with all of them and have nothing but positive experiences with all the brands already mentioned. They have each achieved what I wanted to accomplish with my setups. The difference between you and I is, I will reason , listen, adapt, apply , and learn from each use and experience and not come out blatantly to piss off or put down other members from this site. Love the reading comment in the end , nice touch just shows everyone here how assumption has gotten you the responses u see in these posts.



troutsniffer said:


> Neither have you. He's a sales rep and is selling you a pitch. Using dirt has the exact same qualities as he explained (or lack thereof) in his last post. Just do your own research on it, do you think I'm lying? It's all readily available. Want me to write a book for you that you won't even read?


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic

OK, so I am making a judgement call and closing this thread. It's too easily derailed and I think the OP (original poster) has all the info they could ask for from the existing posts. I can see that its going to go downhill from here. We've left it open for as long as it was fruitful and somewhat on topic but everyone has had their opportunity to say their piece.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Anthony


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