# Why is my staur. repens losing its leaves?



## greenfin

This plant has looked fantastic during the DSM and since I flooded the tank about 6 weeks ago. The last few days (starting friday) I have notice perfectly healthy leaves floating. I scoop them out. Next day, more. The rate of leaf loss is increasing. The plant looks healthy, no holes, discolouration, rot. With the leaves missing I see that there are many roots growing in and on the substrate (ADA). 

I dose SeaChem ferts twice/week. Pressurized CO2 at 1.5bub/sec. Lighting is on for 12 hours day (recent increase). All the plants are looking pretty good for a new build. Including the staur. repens. GH 5 KH 4 pH 6.9 Temp 24C. Good current/flow. Algae more or less gone completely now. What am I missing?

I suspect snails (of course I would) because I see most of them in my patch of staur. repens. They are in other places around the tank but the population concentrates in this plant. Could they be gnawing the leaf off? I had no snails (that I could see) for the first 2 weeks after flooding the tank. Some eggs may have survived my dip and have now hatched. I believe they are some kind of pond snail. 

I don't see any other fish munching on the plant. 

I have 3 corys which could be nosing around and breaking off leaves. These fish were added about 10 days ago.

I have an army of amanos but they seem pretty gentle on everything.

About half the planting still has its leaves. I'll upload a pic soon if it helps.

Thanks!


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## Reckon

Leaves of S. Repens is usually pretty strong. Try pulling them off a healthy plant and you'll see you're more likely to break the leaves.
Snails tend to congregate around dying plants/leaves to eat rotting plant matter rather than killing them.

I'm going to assume that after 6 weeks the plants have adjusted to being flooded. 

Parameter looks good. 1.5 bubble/sec is kinda low for 90gal. If the only change you did was increase the duration of light then we gotta consider how that affects your tank. Did you also increase the duration of CO2 injection with the longer photoperiod? Perhaps you will also need to increase your nutrient dosing since an increase of light will increase the tank's uptake. Hard to tell unless you are actually measuring NO3 and PO4. Otherwise you can just increase CO2 injection and see if things get better as it tends to be the limiting factor for most tanks.


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## greenfin

Reckon said:


> Leaves of S. Repens is usually pretty strong. Try pulling them off a healthy plant and you'll see you're more likely to break the leaves.
> Snails tend to congregate around dying plants/leaves to eat rotting plant matter rather than killing them.
> 
> Parameter looks good. 1.5 bubble/sec is kinda low for 90gal. Did you also increase the duration of CO2 injection with the longer photoperiod? Or you can try increasing CO2 injection.


Thanks for answering so quickly!

The lighting has been like this for about 10 days. I dropped the CO2 from 3 bubbles second to 1.5 about 3 weeks ago. I'll have to double check that date. The leaves started falling 3 days ago. I know snails congregate on a dying plant but these snails chow down on my vals and they looked healthy. The staurogyne looks great and I can't see anything rotten about it. The snail population has really increased in the last week. I can up the CO2 but I'm seeing a lot of pearling on all the plants at the moment. Even the repens has some. I'll bump the CO2 tomorrow. I plucked out about a dozen snails from the repens planting this evening.

If it's not lack of CO2, nor the snails munching. What else could cause such a dramatic leaf loss in so short a time?


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## Reckon

Hm. I firmly believe that plants store a certain amount of sugar in their tissues and use it when ambient nutrients are not available. They don't always loose their leaves or show signs of deficiency right way, not until they use up what they have stored. 10 days does seem to be a long time to see the change occur, I think usually you can spot a deficiency within about 3 days. However, with an increase of lighting and decrease of CO2 that seems like the obvious issue to address first. Otherwise, perhaps you are just bottoming out on macros. NO3 is the most important one, it's only around $10 for the test kit.


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## greenfin

Thanks Reckon, I have the test kit. I'll try that. 

I guess it was late when I wrote my first post on this but I realize I may have a further clue...Last week, when I returned home I noticed the filter was not running properly. No flow. I replaced the filter media floss and cleaned the sponges. They were pretty gunky. Flow returned. Perhaps this caused a drop in nitrates and the staur. repens was the first to notice. The filter may have been gradually losing flow for a week. My fish-sitter didn't notice anything amiss, oops. I will test NO3 today and see. I can double the Nitrogen dose, I'm sure.


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## 2wheelsx2

I would definitely do as Reckon says and test for nitrates and phosphates. Mostly nitrates. Are you dosing full EI levels? If you do, then you don't need to test. Also, are you running a drop checker? Doing the tests and running a drop checker will not solve all your problems, but when you are starting a tank it will at least keep you in the right ballpark, along with dosing EI.

I know some folks say EI doesn't work and is wasteful, but I have never had a tank not grow plants well with EI once I have the flow/CO2 sorted out, regardless of lighting levels. The culprits are always macros and CO2.


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## greenfin

I don't have a drop checker. Is that really bad? 

I dose according to the instructions on the SeaChem bottles. I can pull them out and see what the fert levels are for the amounts (mL's) they say to dose per "x"L's of tank volume. I dose 2times a week. Water change 25% once per week. I use the N, P, K, Trace, Iron & Flourish (think that's a trace/micro). I don't use Excel. Just re-read the whole post on dosing EI to refresh. 

Thanks!


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## Reckon

It's hard to say what you are actually dosing using Seachem's premade liquids unless you test. The test kits aren't accurate but they will give you a good idea what is in your tank. Even though I measure my dry doses, I test every once in a while to make sure I have ample nutrients in the water. As long as your nitrates are not through the roof your fish will do well (not sure about shrimp though). I try to always make sure that there is at least 20ppm in my tanks. With EI dosing NO3 in my tanks can go as high as 40-50ppm before a water change.

After that it's just a matter of increasing CO2 until the plants are happy. I have drop checkers but I don't really use them. Drop checkers help you dial the right amount of CO2. Then again so does a pH reader. They just give you a guideline to work with. In the end your plants will tell you what they need. It takes a bit of time to learn, but now I really just go by how the plants look.

You are right to use S. Repens as an indicator of nutrient deficiency. It is more sensitive and many hobbyists use it as an indicator plant.


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## greenfin

Now that's interesting. Staurogyne is my canary! 

I crunched some numbers. Without testing I realize I am needing to double my Potassium. I was dosing only half the recommended dosage. Right now that and a possibly low NO3 are my two main culprits. I will take a quick pic of the plant. My camera batteries need charging. Pic later. It looks much less happy than yesterday. I notice some yellowing of the leaves, some faint, dark freckles. Not the vibrant, lush green it was last week. Thanks everyone, think we're getting there! Will it survive?


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## 2wheelsx2

They'll survive. They're tough. My S. Repens are the quickest to bounce back after a problem, other than my mosses. My worst plants for recovery are the Downoi. I think the S. repens is a good indicator since it's a fast grower so the uptake is higher.


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## greenfin

Oh Good. Just waiting on the NO3 test right now. Looks like it's going to be low. 

No! Not pogostemon helferi! I am nursing this along as it didn't like that algae outbreak. That plant is like gold to get a hold of. Hooray for staur repens saying "hey! There's a problem!"

No reading of nitrates whatsoever. I've been dosing Nitrogen for a while now and dosed just last night. Weird. I'll up it but maybe it's my test kit?


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## 2wheelsx2

Could be your test kit or your use of it. For the API kits you have to shake the heck out of the mixed solution. Check if the kit is expired.

Yeah, I got a mini-Downoi farm now, but it was touch and go for a while when I had an algae outbreak because I was travelling too much for work.


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## greenfin

Envious of your downoi farm! I'm trying that with one precious little plantlet in my "nursery tank". Not doing much (too low tech, I think) but not dead either! To think I used to chuck those plants out (previous build, about 1 year in) because it was encroaching on neighbouring plants!


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## 2wheelsx2

greenfin said:


> To think I used to chuck those plants out (previous build, about 1 year in) because it was encroaching on neighbouring plants!


Yeah, a few years ago everyone had them, but I didn't want any and now it seems nobody has them.


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## greenfin

bit of an update

CO2 running crazy high today. Can't count the bubbles per second it's more of a stream. Not intentionally high. Fresh fill of tank and the valve open too much while I was at work. Fish not gasping at surface thankfully. Bet the plants loved it. 

I think I may just see new little leaves on my staur. repens. It's pretty de-nuded of leaves by now but the loss is lessening. Although it could be less because there aren't many leaves left. It can lose all the leaves it wants as long as it grows back. I think it is. I wonder if the lack of aquarium circulation caused a lack of CO2 (diffuser opposite end of tank to staur. repens.) and the plant suffered. I've upped the macros too. Too many variables but it's gotta be one of those.


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## Reckon

That's a good sign that the fish aren't gasping even if your CO2 is turned up. It means that even with my guess 3 bubbles per sec you haven't saturated the tank yet. You should probably be keeping the CO2 injecting at around that rate 

Diffusers aren't very efficient as CO2 delivery goes when you've got a bit tank. Otherwise you might need to use a powerhead to circulate water. Have you thought about an atomizer?


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