# Thinking of Switching to Saltwater [Need Advice + Guidance]



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I currently have a 75Gallon Planted that I am thinking of switching over to salt water.

This idea just came to me an hour ago (since someone else here is also doing something similar).

I am thining about FOWLR setup.

I was wondering how much it would cost to change it over and what options would I have for fish stock in a 75Gallon tank? I am interested in SW Angels.

I have a stingray stand, so I am not sure if I can fit a proper sized sump in there. Hopefully its not a requirement and I can get by with ehiem 2260.

I guess I will need to buy Aragonite Sand, Live Rock (cured? uncured?), refractometer (whatever that is... check salinity?) and a HoB skimmer (since I dont have sump?)

*I am a total noob in saltwater and I am looking for advice and guidance from the experts.*

I will be bugging Anthony tonight


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

Now, keep in mind that I've only been into SW for less than a year, so I'm still a major newb too, but I too came from a freshwater background. So maybe I can offer a little help.

First of all, I don't think you'll need the eheim. Your live rock is going to be your biological filtration.

Secondly, as I'm finding out, a refugium is a great idea. If you can't do a sump (or don't want the noise) then you can get a HOB refugium to grow macro algea and 'pods (tasty critters for fish to munch on) in.

As for live rock - how much are you planning on getting? I mean, as far as scaping goes? I'd grab as much as possible. Someone else can better tell you the recommended amount for a 75gal tank, but I recommend that you hunt around for a good price - don't pay for cured live rock, and buy a base of "dead" rock that your new live rock will "revive". I'd also avoid spending too much money on sand - if you want to, buy a little bag of Caribsea Live sand and mix it in with something cheaper. Could make things go a little faster.

...but if you're anything like me, then you're going to enjoy the cycling process in saltwater. You'll see all sorts of critters come to life from the rock and sand. And you have no idea how attached yo can get to hermit crabs.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I can get the sand for $1 a pound at KingEd's (30lbs bag for $30), so I was thinking 2 bags would be more than enough. I could probably get by with 1 bag.

As for live rock, I've read 1lb per gallon, but I have no experience so I would need to rely on advice from you all  I am planning to keep Saltwater Angels, so I am assuming they need the swimming space. I can already tell that 75Gallon would be a bare minimum for them. If this project becomes a success then I might convert my 125Gallon to salt water as well, but we will talk about that later.

From you comment above, I am assuming you meant that only a fraction of all the rocks have to be live rock and the rest can be base rock and the bacteria can grow on the base rocks over time?

I dont understand the filter part. I dont need to use ehiem at all? Is it safe to only rely on the live rocks for filtration and not use any filters? Why do people have sumps then? 

I've never thought about refugium, I guess I will look it up. Is it a necessity?


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I am looking for info on what I need to get in order to get this up and running.

eg: Good HoB Skimmer for 75Gallon - Make/Model and howmuch it costs etc


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

ive been debating it lately too and found this helpful... (and it answers some of ur questions)
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/marine-chat-10/saltwater-beginners-part-1-getting-started-1791/
im eagerly awaiting part 2 
i decided to wait until i can get a larger tank for my africans and then turn my 37g into a micro reef and im hoping i can convert my 10g into a sump for the 37g....


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

If you get a decent HOB refugarium you can put filter media in there. But forgive me a little ignorance in regards to the Eheim/canister filters - I'm sure people use them. I'm just not entirely sure they're needed, if you've got a 'fuge, liverock, skimmer and macro algea.

And yeah, as far as live rock goes - the base rock will become "live rock" over time.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Already read through it before posting  Thanks for the link.



Mferko said:


> ive been debating it lately too and found this helpful... (and it answers some of ur questions)
> http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/marine-chat-10/saltwater-beginners-part-1-getting-started-1791/
> im eagerly awaiting part 2
> i decided to wait until i can get a larger tank for my africans and then turn my 37g into a micro reef and im hoping i can convert my 10g into a sump for the 37g....


So for the live rock, can I get lets say 5-10lbs of live rock and then the rest as base rock?
I am assuming base rock would be the same as limestone rock? I have about 30 lbs in my african setup for about a year. Would that certify as live rock? I am assuming the beneficial bacteria are same in both salt water and fresh water?



Otter said:


> If you get a decent HOB refugarium you can put filter media in there. But forgive me a little ignorance in regards to the Eheim/canister filters - I'm sure people use them. I'm just not entirely sure they're needed, if you've got a 'fuge, liverock, skimmer and macro algea.
> 
> And yeah, as far as live rock goes - the base rock will become "live rock" over time.


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

No - it's totally different bacteria. Liverock and sand also contain tons of different microorganisms, beyond just the bacteria. 

And you'll want to get porous, calcified baserock. Not only because it'll look like it matches, but because all the critters need networks of holes and tunnels to live in. Most likely you'll want old coral skeletons, or used rock that someone's got sitting in their garage.

Again, somebody with more experience will be able to tell you proper ratios, but I think you'll want something like 20lbs of live rock.

The limestone will be OK as far as decoration, but you'll get little to no benefit from it.


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## malawi_eyebiter (Apr 24, 2010)

Don't buy crushed corl sand get the live sand


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

If I dont get any use from limestones then they are out of my list 

I have been looking at some pics of live rocks and I can definitely see the difference. They look very porous and hence even a big piece of rock would weigh light.



Otter said:


> No - it's totally different bacteria. Liverock and sand also contain tons of different microorganisms, beyond just the bacteria.
> 
> And you'll want to get porous, calcified baserock. Not only because it'll look like it matches, but because all the critters need networks of holes and tunnels to live in. Most likely you'll want old coral skeletons, or used rock that someone's got sitting in their garage.
> 
> ...


I am thinking of getting Aragonite Sand (the same as "live sand")



malawi_eyebiter said:


> Don't buy crushed corl sand get the live sand


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Can someone let me know if a HoB skimmer is advisable?

I am thinking of getting one of the below, but I am not sure about their reliability and maintenance.

Coralife Super Protein Skimmer (Needle wheel) - up to 125 Gallon
Coralife Super Protein Skimmer (Needle wheel) - up to 220 Gallon


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I've decided to not upgrade and get a new tank (full setup) instead. One of Anthony's tanks 

I will be selling my 75Gallon soon since I dont really have the space for another tank. If anyone is interested in my 75Gallon Planted, PM me


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## cyber_ecco (Apr 21, 2010)

Smiladon said:


> I currently have a 75Gallon Planted that I am thinking of switching over to salt water.
> 
> This idea just came to me an hour ago (since someone else here is also doing something similar).
> 
> ...


Hahaha...I'm assuming its me your talking about? Nothing against planted tanks and freshwater, but at some point I think you just need a change and new challenge. Although I've done saltwater before so its not so much a new challenge but a change to keep the hobby interesting. Good luck with your new set up.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

If you could find a used Deltec, that would be ideal, not to mention a heck of alot cheaper than new. I ran a FOWLR for a while and from my limited experience, the MCE600 was a great HoB skimmer. If you could do a in sump or under the stand skimmer, that would be a better as you could hide some of the noise as well as not face space limiting issues. Also, the HoB skimmers tend to have tiny collection cups which will force you to empty the cup often.

As for live rock, you should definitely get the 1lb per gallon at the minimum. I did what you are considering, that is, buy base rock and seed with live rock. You have to be very patient with that though...as it takes a good 3 to 6 months to get base to look like live. ie. coraline algae covered. I used base rock from Bulk Reef Supply which was really great looking "dead" live rock. As the live rock will effectively be your filter, you have to be very careful in stocking until the live rock is fully seeded with all the bacteria, algae, etc.

I had my tank for about a year but lost interest in it as everything was just too painstakingly slow for me. I now enjoy my friends' SW tanks. 

I have a refractometer for sale and also a Next Reef MR1 media reactor if you are interested. Both are 99.5% new. LOL. PM me.



Smiladon said:


> Can someone let me know if a HoB skimmer is advisable?
> 
> I am thinking of getting one of the below, but I am not sure about their reliability and maintenance.
> 
> ...


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

He's probably buying my 120g with 90g wide sump/seahorse tank setup. It will come with an Aqualight Pro (2x150w, 2x96w PC actinic & 3 1w blue led moonlights), as well as ASM G4x skimmer (could handle almost twice this volume), return pump, custom stand, live sand, 100 lbs of cured live rock, and some fish, snails & macroalgae.

Plug & play unit (210g total volume on a 4'x2' footprint)


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

Wow, plug and play...that's exactly what anyone would want if they are diving into SW for the first time.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Yup, for the price, he's even getting me to help him plug & play with it at his home so that he knows its set up properly and plumbed right.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

even better, plug and play including setup! LOL. gotta love BCA.


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

.....jealous!!!!

Although, like I said earlier, I found the curing/cycle process to be super interesting. Even if it did take a while.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

WOW, that is fantastic SeaHorse_Fanatic! Smiladon is lucky


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

cyber_ecco said:


> Hahaha...I'm assuming its me your talking about? Nothing against planted tanks and freshwater, but at some point I think you just need a change and new challenge. Although I've done saltwater before so its not so much a new challenge but a change to keep the hobby interesting. Good luck with your new set up.


Yes its you 

---

I am indeed lucky that Anthony happend to be selling his tank when I needed it


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Apparently I can't go saltwater in my aquarium :'( 

I am going to have to bring this up in the Annual Meeting because I personally think its a stupid rule.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Oh my 
Is that any kind of weird strata rule or what?
Are SW more dangerous in terms of electricity hazard, etc.?
I am so sorry for you


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

What! That's a travesty! Personally, I wouldn't have even let them know. What a joke. Stupid arbitrary rules.

Really upset for you.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

InfraredDream said:


> Oh my
> Is that any kind of weird strata rule or what?
> Are SW more dangerous in terms of electricity hazard, etc.?
> I am so sorry for you


Apparently salt water is more prone to electrical short circuits resulting in possible fire. The other reason was something related to salt creep damaging walls or something...no idea if the 2nd part is true, but the first one seems valid to me.



Otter said:


> What! That's a travesty! Personally, I wouldn't have even let them know. What a joke. Stupid arbitrary rules.
> 
> Really upset for you.


Unfortunately, if they come to know about it in the future, which they will since they come into my apartment a few times a year for safety inspections etc, I will end up getting a big fine and I would need to get rid of the tank right away. Which is really not good.

Even though I'm pissed off, I am happy in a way because I found this out BEFORE I got a salt water tank.

I might be able to sneak in a small 20gallon biocube or something and then cover it with some cloth when they come for inspection, but its definitely not worth the risk because if some kind of fire damage happens, then I might not be covered for insurance because I went against the rules...
too much nuisance in apartments. Atleast they are allowing freshwater tanks (they haven't jumped on me regarding howmany tanks I have yet *knock on wood*)


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## donjuan_corn (May 6, 2010)

Wow, I'm so sorry bud I read the whole thread and am thinking of starting a nano now. I like the idea of the plug and play.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You can get around it by buying your own insurance for the building, but it'd be expensive. Or you can get an independent inspector to qualify that your tank is set up properly and that no electrical hazard will be present, and no salt creep (I guess they are thinking you're going to run open top). If someone will do that for you, the Strata can make an exception.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> You can get around it by buying your own insurance for the building, but it'd be expensive. Or you can get an independent inspector to qualify that your tank is set up properly and that no electrical hazard will be present, and no salt creep (I guess they are thinking you're going to run open top). If someone will do that for you, the Strata can make an exception.


Thanks a lot for the advice.

I will run it by them. I am not sure how fast they are at accepting it, but its worth a try (I have been waiting for 2.5 years to get my windows fixed... )

I guess getting the insurance will solve the electrical part for sure. It will also help in case any of my FW tanks crack or leak (hope not "fingers crossed"). Also need to look at how much the insurance will cost...

Thanks again for the great advice


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

A lot of strata councils do the CYA thing since they often have people who aren't very motivated on them. I got myself elected when I was still in a townhouse just so I could get some reasonable changes made. One of the fastest ways to change dumb rules is to get on the council to push for the change. Hope it works out for you.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> A lot of strata councils do the CYA thing since they often have people who aren't very motivated on them. I got myself elected when I was still in a townhouse just so I could get some reasonable changes made. One of the fastest ways to change dumb rules is to get on the council to push for the change. Hope it works out for you.


I dont want to take on the responsibily and get elected! lolz. But I agree that its the fastest way. I might have to pull some strings instead


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

You may also want to look into what rights the strata really has to limit you. most strata's overstep their bounds, and will keep overstepping them until enough people get on the council to oust the problem makers. Another thing to note, did they give you permission to keep fish at certain tank sizes? To me this would be like saying, You can have small dogs, but no terriers. Here's the act, more than likely they kept it as is.

Strata Property Act



> (4) An owner, tenant or occupant must not keep any pets on a strata lot other than one or more of the following:
> 
> (a) a reasonable number of fish or other small aquarium animals;
> 
> ...


sounds to be they'll need to target saltwater tanks specifically in the bylaws, which will require a vote from the owners, which many strata councils fail to do when ammending bylaws.

Strata Information for Condo Owners and Council Members | Talkstrata may be able to answer any questions

As for the electrical, it is true that salt water can conduct electricity, thats why its more dangerous to be electrocuted while sweating than not. But proper tank set up for a salt water should include a GFCI receptacle (about $10). Electrical fires are caused by arcing, often times its inside the plug between the ground and the hot, as a hot to neutral will most likely trip out a breaker. The thing is, to increase the risk though, you'll need to have the tank in front of the receptacle, keeping it out of spash range and using an extension cord (3 pronged type) to a GFCI receptacle, should adequately protect any electrical risk, salt water or freshwater. I've been in the electrical trade since for over 5 years now, so im not just speaking out of my ass about this topic.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

Strata councils...one big reason that I will never live in a condo again. Yes, getting yourself on council is one way a friend of mine got his building painted and upgraded just in time for him to sell his place! 

Changing the subject for a second though, if I were to do SW again, I would be really tempted to try the Red Sea Max plug and play systems. Or actually any of the systems out there where its all inclusive with tank and filtration and lighting. It's just so tidy and neat and quiet.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

They didn't flame me for having 3 huge FW tanks yet (maybe because it looks solid).

Dont know if I mentioned this earlier, but apparently there was an incident with SW tank years ago in the building and then they made the stupid rule (80% old people). Fire safety is really a high point in our strata because we have lots of old people and some of them are also disabled etc (wheel chairs).
Even this year we are upgrading the fire system for the whole building and its costing us a BIG chunk of our strata fees. Its in progress as we speak...

I think if I can proove to them that there is no fire hazard issue, then I might be safe. I am going to be seeding this thought to some old ladies in the building so that it spreads in my favor before the next AGM. (Thanks Tony and Neven for the insights on strata and fire safety)

I wont be able to pick up Anthony's tank right now anyways since he is using it right now (his new tank cracked...along with his ribs  )
---
Anthony, do let me know if you need help. You have my number.


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## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I did commit myself to Discus again, since that is the closest to a SW tank. 

Lets not talk about this much as me and my dad are both pissed off at this rule. I wont want to beat up old people...lol (just jk, I respect old people...most of them)


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Perhaps a mini presentation with a handout explaining what you plan to do and how you'll address their concerns.

Start with the electrical hazard, explain the GFCI, and how its required around sinks and bathtubs now for fire and life safety, sketch out the layout of where the tank will be to the closest socket and how you'll use a grounded extension cord to ensure the receptacle protects.

Outline the equipment is meant for aquarium/wet use, so salt creep shouldn't be an issue as you are anal about cleaning (say that even if you aren't). A top for the tank to ensure the condensation gathers and returns to the tank. If they've given you permission about the freshwater tanks, hopefully written, explain you've kept these tanks successfully for x amount of time, and have had no issues and been on top of their maintnence.

May be better to try to work with them since you already have so many large tanks, then to use the strata info i provided.


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## bvlester (Jul 19, 2010)

you posted this awhile ago so I do not know what stage you are at. but if you have not started yet when you empty your tank I would have it drilled if the panes of glass are not tempered you can find this out by contacting the manufacturer. A buddy of mine contacted hagon and all of their tanks are not tempered or that is what they told him. I do know the older ones are not tempered. do a sump as you can get a in sump skimmer for much less than a HOB skimmer. There are very few HOB skimmers I would get and I have had a few of them deltec's are nice and work very good and the Aqua Medic T1000 multi also works very well. the romara's work better than the red sea Prizm. I have found that the romara's work different in different tanks. I had one on my kids tank it skimmed tea color skim I walked it over to my buddies where he put it on a tank that is the same size as my kids and he was getting a dark brown color skim out of it. So I am up in the air about them. I am kind of partial to the Aqua Medic's as they have been around for a long time. skimmers have been around along time more than 20 years but most people could not afford a good one back then. You will love having a sump you can put a filter sock on the feed line and keep the ditris out of your sump and tank. your can build a refugium and have Macro algae in there to export nitrates out of your tank so you don't get the dreaded Green hair algae. 
Yu can have an ATO so you don't have to manually add top up water every day. A sump makes life easy in my view, i have had tanks with and with out them and I really like them.

Not to scare yu but hang on to your wallet it can get expensive but does not have to get out of hand. when starting out buy a used skimmer the best you can afford. As I said the Aqua Medic is nice and is rated for up to 250 gallons so if you want to up grade latter you do not have to buy another skimmer. I bought mine when I had my 55g and now have a 125g but the water level is at about the 115g mark plus I have a sump of around 40 gallons. I have 8 fish and allot of corals in it manly SPS corals. Live Rock is a 1 time buy you may add to it but unless you do a complete tear down and sell off most people just keep what they have and or add to it. So I don't skimp on the LR it, takes time to turn base rock in to live rock and in the mean time you are limited as to how many fish you can have and how many corals. I believe we are absolutely spoiled to be able to have corals in out tanks when I started out you could not get corals except on Live rock that we bought from the stores and only if an employee missed it..

Bill


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