# Losing fish, help



## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

We started our 55 gallon 6 weeks ago. First week just plants, second week added 2 Serpae, 2 black skirts and 2 congos. Waited a week, all water parameters good, so added 2 amano shrimp, 4 adolfoi Cories, 2 Siamese algae eaters. Next week added 4 panda Cories, 2 ottos, 2 black phantoms. We lost a sae and then an Otto. We got another sae. Added another Congo and 4 bumblebee gobies. All seemed fine. Then a gold gourami added. Lost the second otto, then a panda. Replaced one Otto and added a bnp and a petricola. Added three more serapes since the serapes seemed to be getting along with the rest. And another small petricola. We finally added a large Peruvian angel. Now we just lost a black phantom and found an adolfoi half eaten. Doing water changes, testing parameters every second day. We are running a fluval 405 and a Penguin 350.

So we are ready for a do-over. My larger petricola seems to be always chasing the smaller one. I read that they should be in groups of three, but not sure we have room. Is this all just normal hiccups, or is there one or two fish that are upsetting the balance? Should I take out three serapes? All the serapes? The gourami? The angel?

We aren't going to add any more fish, just thinking maybe we should take some out (donate to lfs). Would rather do that than lose more fish. I've read gourami and angels can and can't be together, that either could be attacking others, or the serapes could be doing it?

Just confused! Advice would be appreciated.


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## Gfish (Jan 28, 2014)

First off the shrimp are likely going to end up food for you congos 

second bumble bee gobys are brackish water fish 

third the angel is prob not the best to mix with your current stock 

It is important to research all the fish you plan on keeping especially in a community tank with so many mixed species many of the fish you have chosen prefer groups of at least five 

Also with adding so many fish in such a short time an not quarantining any of them it is possible that you have something now in your tank that could spread to other fish 

I'm sure others will have more words of wisdom hope some of my info helped 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

What exactly are your water parameters. 

Also, your tank is still relatively new. Is it cycled yet? I think it takes at least 6 weeks to finish cycling. 

I've also heard angels and gouramis tend to fight.


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## Niku (Feb 11, 2014)

sounds about right, otto's and panda corys are the most sensitive fish in the tank, chasing is normal just make sure its not relentless and that there isnt any nipping of fins going on ... angel fish is quickly going to grow big enough to bully the rest of your tank. also bumble bee gobys are brackish only when full grown so if they are the ones from IPU burnaby you have some time to enjoy them until they grow up ( also i currently have 2 bumble bee gobys and a few other gobys in a planted freshwater and havent seen any adverse effects so you can always wait and see) i agree with reck and would like to see some numbers on how the tank is testing... preferably numbers before any water change.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Well we used some bio media from a cycled tank, and also half of the gravel was from a cycled tank (lfs was out of bagged new stuff so they were kind enough to sell us some matching gravel from their tanks). So even with testing every second day there was no ammonia or nitrites, eventually nitrates appeared at just over 10 and seemed to level there for a bit. So I decided it was time, and did a 40% water change and the nitrates went to 0. GH is 7 and KH is 3 and pH is around 7.5. I have trouble with the colours on the test chart, so I am not sure if it's 7.4 or 7.6, and assume the middle. Just to be sure, since I am new to this, I have taken some water into IPU a few times to get their assurance that I am reading it all correctly. Lots of plants that seem to be rooting, much to my surprise. No co2 but I fertilize them and have 2 bulbs of 10,000.

I read that there are two types of bumblebees, and one type is fine in freshwater (though the other does need brackish). Yes, I got them at IPU Burnaby. I have to dropper feed them brine shrimp because I read that they don't accept other foods, but they are too adorable to send back, so special feeding it is. They are doing well.

The angel is a full grown Peruvian. The gourami is also a good size. He doesn't do too much moving.

So if I move out the amanos, who btw have lots of places to hide in the driftwood and ferns, should I add another 2 congos to bring that group up to 5 or 6. Max's choice, they remind him of the trout he fishes for with his dad, so they must stay.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I just read on the internet that ottos are not recommended for tanks younger than 6 months! I think I will return him, I have only had him a couple of days and prefer that he doesn't die.

So it's either the gourami or the angel, but not both? I also read that in a community tank one angel is the limit?? 

Max wants me to take out the serpaes to protect the his angel. Should I? What about the black skirts/black phantoms?


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## Niku (Feb 11, 2014)

Can't say I have ever seen a serpae or a black skirt attack anything bigger then its self. I had a school of each in one of my community tanks for the longest time. 

My gobys had the same issue I switched to blood worms and now they eat no problem. Could work for you as well


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

I tend to agree with the others. This is a lot of fish (some with requirements that highly differ from the others... you really should be researching _before_ buying. A good idea if you're not sure is to come up with a full stocking plan and post it here to get some commentary) in a very short amount of time (especially since you've had deaths... that means something is wrong; typically I'd wait at least four weeks after any death before adding more fish). That number of deaths is not normal either.

While most of your fish are softwater, the petricolas are East African fish and are recommended for hard water aquariums (although apparently the dwarf form can be quite adaptable). Bumblebee gobies aren't really community tank material; and should really be kept in brackish conditions (yes, there is a freshwater-tolerant bumblebee; but the differences are fairly subtle. How do you know which one you got? I wouldn't trust most LFS staff to know the difference). Oto's don't typically do well in new tanks (they need a good mature biofilm to do well)

There are a few compatibility issues as well. The angel, the leopard gourami, and the gold gourami are all listed as 'territorial'... so there are potential issues there (fish that are fairly evenly matched and introduced at the same time are less likely to have problems... but generally speaking big territorial fish will beat on small fish that it deems to be intruders). The angel and leopard will also eat small fish (oto's and bumblebees might be in that list... I'm not certain). Serpaes (and possibly the Black skirts) have been known to nip fins (of potential concern for the angel... however fin nipping is somewhat hard to predict; a good chunk of the time there might not be any problem at all). There's a certain amount of wiggle room in there (depending on individual fish personalities)... so I can't say if any of that will happen. It's just that it's moderately likely you'll have problems.

Also, all of your tetras, cories, the petricolas and the SAE's are recommended to be kept in groups. Generally speaking the accepted minimum is 6-8 (4 for the petricolas), but my own experience suggests that they should be in the biggest group you can manage (they get to be a lot more comfortable and interesting).

As for the deaths, they're recent enough additions that I'd probably call them transport/handling fatalities (if there are no other signs of disease and the water quality checks out). You should revist your transport/acclimation process.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

I agree with Rockman he sounds like he hit the nail on the head.
I am not the most knowledgeable on the forum here but I know adding that many fish that fast in any aquarium is not a good idea. You need to wait and let the bioload in the filter and tank catch up before adding more fish or your balance will become way out of whack.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Otos are very sensitive fish - it's best to acclimate them very, very slowly (e.g., add a tiny bit of your tank water to the bag, let sit for half an hour, repeat over and over). I think they also prefer to be in groups (mine always hang out together, it's actually a little bit adorable).

I'm also a newbie so I can't really comment on the types of fish and their compatibility but I echo others' suggestions to not add any more fish shortly after a death - best to take time to reassess and see how the other fish do for a little while before trying again.

Good luck!


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

I skipped most peoples responses so I'm not sure if someone else has stated it, but petricolas are supposed to be kept in groups of 6+ and prefer to be in groups of 10+


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

So I took out the amano and the too, and also the 5 Serpae. Did another water change. Someone suggested it could be some of the plants that didn't "take" and are melting so I took out the worst looking of those and left the ones that have rooted. The ammonia is not registering, but the nitrates climbed again within a few days, so I did another 50% water change today. I also added a stem of the nitrate eating plant (portulaca?? I forget. 

One person suggested adding a nitrate absorbing granule to my filter (chem pro) to control the nitrates and another person said not to do that or any water changes. I apparently have new tank syndrome and he suggested nite out II but I was reading up on it and I am not sure that I should.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

maxandjenny said:


> Someone suggested it could be some of the plants that didn't "take" and are melting


I'd rate that as being pretty unlikely as being the root of your problems (unless you have a lot of rotting organic matter all at once... but the plants would look dead or dying with lots of decaying leaves).



maxandjenny said:


> The ammonia is not registering, but the nitrates climbed again within a few days, so I did another 50% water change today. I also added a stem of the nitrate eating plant (portulaca?? I forget.
> 
> One person suggested adding a nitrate absorbing granule to my filter (chem pro) to control the nitrates


Eh? What are your nitrate levels? Why are you concerned about them? Your other post said 10 ppm; which is quite low. As a general rule, anything under 50 ppm is unlikely to cause problems (aside from fish that are particularly nitrate sensitive... which yours are not), and even then nitrate problems are typically chronic (rather than acute).



maxandjenny said:


> and another person said not to do that or any water changes. I apparently have new tank syndrome and he suggested nite out II but I was reading up on it and I am not sure that I should.


Which is why listening to people on the internet isn't always the best idea. 'New tank syndrome' refers to the ammonia and nitrite spikes you get in fish-in cycled tanks. If you don't measure any ammonia/nitrite on your tests, then you don't have new tank syndrome. You may have had it at some point (fish in cycling is not recommended); which could explain the losses you had. However, you've been testing the water regularly without any indication of that. It's possible that your test kits aren't very good (which ones do you have?) or that you're not using them properly (not likely if you've been following the instructions in the kit). Either way, not doing water changes is a bad idea .


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

55g is a decent size tank but you never cycled the tank, I haven't read anything about you adding cycle or stability or starting the tank off correctly. From week 2 on you have been adding fish none stop. After working in a few fish stores Ive found this to be a common problem with new fish keepers. Too many fish, too quick, than they start dying. You said IPU is testing your water and it's all perfect which may be true but rushing the cycle process is a bad idea especially if you are new to this. Best bet is to take a step back and let the tank finish its process. No more new fish. 

Another thing is most fish do better in a group. Buying 2 of any species can be asking for problems even with your basic tetra's. Most tropical fish grow up in large schools. Black skirts and Serpae's can be nasty when there is only 2. If you have only 1 they will chase all your other fish. Typically 5 is a good starting number. The aggression can be spread out and 1 fish wont be picked on. Guppy males will chase a single female all day if he doesn't have any others females to go after. eventually he will stress her out so much that she wont eat and eventually die. Otto's need to be in a group of 3 or more to keep happy. Your tank will look a lot nicer if you plan out your fish and buy bigger groups of fish.  but don't go buy 15 at once.

I agree with Rockman. Not doing water changes is a bad idea


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes she did ./she used used gravel etc. I agree petricolas aren't meant for tropical tanks.wild Angels are strong minded. Nite out is great. I handed out nite out to all my customers who started with new tanks and told them add a bit every second day. It worked well and they didn't lose fish. .


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Well that's a bit harsh, I was kind of looking more for what to do now rather than why I had this coming... I actually thought my tank had cycled. Week 2 I added 6 hardy tetras to do a non-fishless cycle. It was suggested that we start with 4 to 6 fish, and since I wanted Serpaes and Max wanted Congos and black skirts were recommended by the store, we decided to go with all 3, with the idea of topping up the groups once the tank was cycled. I used bio media from a cycled tank in one of my filters, and half of the gravel came straight from a cycled tank. I used Stability every day for 7 days, and thereafter as recommended on the bottle. Also added it to each water change, along with dechlorinator and Equilibrium. I used a new test kit (API) to check the water every day. I had no nitrites, no ammonia. Finally after a couple more weeks I got some nitrates, between 5 or 10. Kept checking the water but the nitrates did not increase. It had been almost a month so I thought I should do a water change, clean the gravel, clean one of the filters (rinsed the sponge in tank water and rinsed the filter, cleaning the slimy stuff off the output ledge on the penguin, also with tank water and didn't touch the bio balls). Figured the tank was cycled at that point. It was after that first water change that my nitrate level seemed to be climbing very quickly, from 0 after a water change, as expected, to up to 20 within 3 days.

Yes we did add too many fish too quickly, absolutely. I didn't realize how few fish can be stocked in a 55, and was hoping it would be ok, which it clearly wasn't. We have taken out some fish, along with our fish deaths, so I am hoping the tank will sustain the rest. 

Just wondering if it is normal for nitrates to rise so quickly after a water change, if our bio load has overtaken the carrying capacity, and other than checking the nitrate level every day and doing a water change when it gets up toward 30 or 40, if there is anything else we can do to protect our remaining fish?

We found that the black phantom is hanging with the black skirts, we don't have room for more than one angel and I read they are ok on their own. The petricolas, according to what I read online, have a pH range from 7 upwards and temp range 22 to 24, so within our parameters. They prefer a hardness of 10 and our water is 8, so not perfect but not way out of line. I would like to add 2 more but can't right now. There are caves and raised driftwood for them to hide under. The panda and adolfoi always swim together, so we initially had a group of 8 but are now down to 4. Once the water settles we will add a few more congos and black skirts and call it done.


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## Livyding (Feb 6, 2013)

maxandjenny said:


> Well that's a bit harsh, I was kind of looking more for what to do now rather than why I had this coming... I actually thought my tank had cycled. Week 2 I added 6 hardy tetras to do a non-fishless cycle. It was suggested that we start with 4 to 6 fish, and since I wanted Serpaes and Max wanted Congos and black skirts were recommended by the store, we decided to go with all 3, with the idea of topping up the groups once the tank was cycled. I used bio media from a cycled tank in one of my filters, and half of the gravel came straight from a cycled tank. I used Stability every day for 7 days, and thereafter as recommended on the bottle. Also added it to each water change, along with dechlorinator and Equilibrium. I used a new test kit (API) to check the water every day. I had no nitrites, no ammonia. Finally after a couple more weeks I got some nitrates, between 5 or 10. Kept checking the water but the nitrates did not increase. It had been almost a month so I thought I should do a water change, clean the gravel, clean one of the filters (rinsed the sponge in tank water and rinsed the filter, cleaning the slimy stuff off the output ledge on the penguin, also with tank water and didn't touch the bio balls). Figured the tank was cycled at that point. It was after that first water change that my nitrate level seemed to be climbing very quickly, from 0 after a water change, as expected, to up to 20 within 3 days.
> 
> Yes we did add too many fish too quickly, absolutely. I didn't realize how few fish can be stocked in a 55, and was hoping it would be ok, which it clearly wasn't. We have taken out some fish, along with our fish deaths, so I am hoping the tank will sustain the rest.
> 
> ...


I think jbyoung008 and the others are making some fair points.. As far as what you should do now goes, I think you should decide on one kind of tetra, trade in the others and get more of the other kind until you have 6 +. I would also trade in one of the corydoras, and get 5 more of the other kind. I would personally get rid of the gourami, SAE, gobies and petricola too, since most of the other things you have are SA. That's up to you though.

Maybe get some filter media from another member here to make sure your tank is properly cycled, keep up with partial water changes, and test the water often. Let us know how it goes.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Ok, so let's say we stay with the congos, so 6 congos, 8 cory, one angel, and 1 bnp. Would that be the limit for a 55 gallon? If we remove all the Cory could we add a second group 6ish fish of another type of tetra? Also how long should we wait after the water stabilizes before adding the new fish?


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

I disagree, while the others make valid points they have done so rather bluntly IMO. I always suggest the "by the book" answers, but it is not the end of the world for the fish or the hobbyist not to follow them strictly. I am keeping 2 pea puffers in my 70 gallon aggressive community...they are fine, the other fish are fine. Did I recommend it to customers when I worked in a LFS? No, but I did not say it was impossible. Keeping different species of tetras together is a reasonable substitute to having a mixed school. They school with each other so I have no qualms suggesting for people to do that. I've seen very healthy petricolas living alone and in groups with SAs, they are expensive fish, not everybody is absorbed enough into this hobby to warrant paying for a large school. Not to mention people forget that many fish are farm bred, making the "well, they live like this in the wild" point kinda moot for most cases (unless if you are breeding). I always promote stability over constantly changing parameters trying to get it somewhere.

6 fish over 6 weeks is a lot of losses (in a new tank nonetheless)? I must disagree. In terms of causes with perfect parameters. It could be from acclimation stress, transport stress, the fish could have underlying health issues, LFS problems, etc. What I do agree with, is that there is definitely compatibility problem and that adding fish to a new tank should be taken slowly. However, if a tank is cycled, a 55 gallon should be able to handle 10ish 1" additions with little problem.



maxandjenny said:


> Ok, so let's say we stay with the congos, so 6 congos, 8 cory, one angel, and 1 bnp. Would that be the limit for a 55 gallon? If we remove all the Cory could we add a second group 6ish fish of another type of tetra? Also how long should we wait after the water stabilizes before adding the new fish?


It really depends on your filtration and compatibility. My 70 gallon has 10x that stock and only 15 gallons more water (rough guess of about 100 fish in there and I plan to add more) but I run 2 canister filters, 3 sponge filters, and 40% water changes a week (I think I over filtrate though). I usually wait around 2 weeks for my filters to play catch up before adding fairly large additions (twelve to twenty-four 1-2" fish or six 4"+ fish). If you have a good filter, a tank that size could probably do 12~ cories, 24~ tetras (small ones, not congos (maybe 12 congos?)), 6~angels, and 6~ BNPs.

Best of luck with your tank, this hobby definitely has a sharp learning curve! :bigsmile:


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Ok that's more encouraging, thanks. I am running a fluval 405 and penguin 350, so lots of filtration. I just got a Rena xp3 that I was going to use as a replacement for the hob, but then fish started dying so I thought I should wait. I would rather do weekly water changes than worry, it's quick and easy with a python to vacuum/remove water and a 5g pail (x4) to mix additives and refill.

Last time I had an aquarium there was little information outside books from the library. Now there is lots of information, but mostly conflicting opinions, so it gets confusing. I read that every planted tank should have SAEs for algae control. Great, got 2. Some say they get aggressive as they age, some say they don't if they are true SAEs, which some also say are not often found in stores. So I looked up the "true" and "false" SAEs and I think I have the true ones. Then I read otos are also good but smaller, got 2. When my otos died I did more reading and finally found somewhere that said the tank must be going a minimum of 6 months to have enough mature stuff for them to survive, it's not just that they are sensitive. So I took my one survivor back. Bumblebees are another issue. There are 2 kinds, one from brackish and one from freshwater. Mine are the ones with black bands around their belly fully (no yellow line underneath), so are supposedly freshwater species. Yet I am still finding disagreement on fish sites about it, whether they will need brackish as they age, or if a true freshwater species exists, or if these will just tolerate it but not thrive. The more I look on the internet, the less certain I become of the answer. Mine seem to be doing well and have certainly grown larger than their siblings still left at the store. So I don't know what to do about them.

I decided to go to the tank journals and search 55g and see what people had put in their tanks. But most of them list species but not numbers of each!!

I really just wanted a planted mixed tropical community tank of peaceful fish.


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

I would personally leave the corys in the tank, all your other inhabitants would be more mid level swimmers - I like to have some bottom activity. Depending on the size and type of schooling fish you would like to add, another school should be fine, but add in some more corys!

But I'd wait and let your tank settle down first (Zero readings ammonia, nitrites, low(ish) nitrates, stable pH before and after water changes) and I suggest quarantining any new fish for at least 4 weeks. The last thing you want to do is introduce nasties into your tank that you've just established.

I've used Stability with good success many times but it's used during the first week with a fully stocked tank. If I understand your posts correctly, you used Stability and other seeded bacteria in the first week but continued to add more fish after that - so your tank probably kept on going through mini cycles. I go through high nitrate periods with heavily stocked tanks with canister filters, even after a water change. It tells me I need to service my canisters more frequently. Canisters tend to be nitrate factories - think of all the uneaten food and detritus cooking inside an enclosed container.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I like Cories too. Do you think I need to stay with the Adolfoi, might be hard to find, or can I choose one other type? And would 6 be enough for a school?

The stability bottle said use for the first week, and then to add a lower amount once a month or with each water change. Is this just marketing? I don't need to add it?

My canister just has biomedia, 3 trays, and crushed coral, 1 tray, plus the sponges. I read that you should not clean both filters at the same time, which is why I left it. I will give it a rinse today, and I am planning to find a sponge sleeve to attach to the intake as a pre-filter.

Thanks for the advice. Gives me something to do to fix things.


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

Pandas are not the most hardy corys, but easier to get than adolfois. A lot of times wholesalers mislabel adolfoi's - IIRC, there's another several corydoras that look similar to the true adolfoi's. Slight differences in the serrations in the pectoral fins and the black stripe down it's back. Your's are more likely duplicareus corydoras as they look very similar to adolfoi's. Duplicareus are easier to breed so easier to distribute and IMO, prettier too because their orange spot and black stripe is more prominent. They're still not cheap, whether they're true aldolfois or not. I have a school of 24 duplicareus that's constantly throwing me eggs but raising them to adults in greater numbers have been a challenge.

Hardier types would be the trilineatus often mislabelled as "julies", those are pretty and easier to get. 6 is a nice school, but they stay small and if the rest of your stocking is reasonable, I'd get 12.  But if you get another school, what do you do with your existing corys?

No need to constantly add Stability - once your biofiltration is established, stocking levels are consistent, your biomedia in addition to regular water changes are fine. The only time I would add in more Stability is if you used meds that destroyed your nitrifying bacteria, added in new fish or if you're going through a mini-cycle for whatever reason.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Great advice! I just have been researching the sponge sleeve per filter idea, and of course found a lot of conflicting information! Super big sigh... The danger is apparently that it will slow down flow rate, affecting the performance of the canister and it's motor. Cheesecloth was suggested instead. It could be that there is a lot of plant matter in the canister. Some of my plants did not do well. I also read on this forum that you should not have carbon in the filter with a planted tank, which I didn't know when I set this up. So I removed the carbon when I cleaned my hob during the first water change. Maybe some bb was lost by doing that.

I have a bunch of air pumps that came with my used tank. I think I will set up at least one sponge filter today instead of trying to prefilter the canister. My remaining plants have rooted and are not melting, so hopefully I am past that problem now. I am adding flourish as a fertilizer for them, following the directions on the bottle.

Are Pygmy Cories hard to find? Small sounds good.


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

Are you wanting to use a pre filter to keep plant matter out of your filters? True, it will slow down flow rate if you don't clean the pre filters often, but so will a mass of plant matter in your canister. I used pre filters with my discus for an Aquaclear hob and Eheim Canisters. I cleaned that daily during my water changes. The bright blue foam sleeve sold for Internal Fluval filters fitted both intake sleeves perfectly. Each one lasted me about a year before they gave out. The only problem is that they were ugly....but then so are sponge filters.

I don't really see the need for a sponge filter for your tank - sponge filters are great for multiple tanks and for extra bio filtration where you don't want a lot of current ie. fry tanks, breeding tanks. You already have plenty of bio media in your canister and hob. It takes up more space in your tank that I would rather have another cory or 4. I don't use carbon, but I do have carbon in hand if I want to use remove meds in the water if I'm not able to do a full water change.

I wouldn't get pygmys in your tank - it's too big. They'll always be hiding with big inhabitants and they could be snacks for your angels or tetras. They're readily available and they look ultra cool in a big school in a smaller tank.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Ok!!! I will take your advice with a huge thank you!!! I will be searching on this forum from now on, rather than random google searches which just confuse me. Great point about the pygmies, I hadn't considered that. I rescued some fish last week, there were 6 Cories in the tank, 2 albinos, 2 salt & pepper, and 2 unknown. They were huge! I was concerned my Cories would end up that size, so that's why I wondered about pygmies. I will keep my eye out for some Julies as you suggested.

I really appreciate your advice. It makes sense (love your clear explanations as to why of things) and is very helpful and encouraging, and - bonus - non-judgemental! We really are trying to do this right. Thanks again.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Ed aka hp10B11 is a very experienced successful hobbyist. The Adolphois she got from me and one of our other members bought some and classifies fish and said they were the true ones. But who knows for sure. 
Also most of the petricolas around town were raised by one fellow who lives in Richmond and sells to stores. Raised in Richmond water parameters. 
The saes are also the true ones.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Thanks April. I lost one adolfoi of the 4 I bought, they were all doing so well. Would one of the fish in my tank be attacking them? I won't be adding any more fish until December, but will contact you then to see if you have any more to build up the school. The SAEs are doing well and glad to hear they are the true ones! Probably 2 is enough for the tank?

The petricolas (again there seem to be a couple of similar types so not sure yet whether mine is the dwarf version) seem to have a high tolerance for a wide pH range, temp, and hardness, according to fish sites, so would not necessarily need a true African set up, from what I've read. I am still thinking about what to do with them. I definitely can't afford 8 or 10 of them.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

I have more Adolphois. I'll try stash a couple once your tank is settled and you feel ready. I'd stick with two sae.they are busy fish. .


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Actually I am on the verge of shutting down the tank. Looks like one of my black skirts is dying. He has a white dot on his lower fin. Max took a video to show to the lfs but they thought it was just fin nipped. He is swimming somewhat oddly and gasping. Very sad to see. Unfortunately this takes me back to the last time I tried this. I was trying to be careful and more informed this time. I added more fish bc I thought the tank was cycled, but apparently it isn't. I hate to see them die off one by one.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

All I can say is don't give up on the hobby so easy! I am almost positive if you reached out to the community a member would come over and show you a thing or too and let you know what you are doing right and or wrong. Also they can help you figure out a community set up that both you and your son will be happy with. Don't get too discouraged we all have lost fish and made mistakes from time to time the main thing is to learn from them as best as possible and move forward with a positive mindset.

As for the white spot if its small and only 1 spot it could be damage from something in the tank or could be something like mouth and fin fungus starting out. I would just monitor the tank and watch, If you do end up needing medication Malafix is a pretty wonderful substance it helps the fish fight bacterial infections naturally and Pimafix is also a natural bacterial fighter that will kill fungal infections and are very good for sensitive fish like tetra's. They can be used together and do some pretty magical things to fish when they are stressed and fighting nasty bacterial infections. Goodluck!


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

I concur, don't give up! It is not always your fault, many times the fish themselves are just not healthy from the get go. My girlfriend lost her entire first batch of Rummynoses and Cories, the second time around they've been healthy to this day. I will not give numbers of fish/coral deaths and amount of $$$ I've lost, but I'll tell you it is not a small number. This hobby is unforgiving, on the cost level and the moral/consciousness level. But I assure you it is rewarding on the other end!


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

I agree... don't give up before you get to the good bit.



C-kidder said:


> As for the white spot if its small and only 1 spot it could be damage from something in the tank or could be something like mouth and fin fungus starting out. I would just monitor the tank and watch, If you do end up needing medication Malafix is a pretty wonderful substance it helps the fish fight bacterial infections naturally and Pimafix is also a natural bacterial fighter that will kill fungal infections and are very good for sensitive fish like tetra's. They can be used together and do some pretty magical things to fish when they are stressed and fighting nasty bacterial infections. Goodluck!


Melafix and pimafix are okay as a preventative (for wounds, etc)... but it's not really strong enough to deal with serious infections. Get something a bit stronger if you have an issue.

As for black skirt I can't really give a solid opinion without a good photo or video; but it sounds like it could be a fungal/bacterial infection (or possibly nothing).


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

So I did another water change on Friday and tested the water again today. Parameters are pH 7.8, nitrite 0, ammonia 0, nitrate 0, KH 3, GH 9, temp 26.9. So no rapid nitrate increase after a wc this time. Things seemed to have settled and no more floaters. Even the black skirt's fin is looking better though a bit tattered.

As I said, I used some biomedia and gravel from a cycled tank when I started, but didn't just assume that my tank was fully cycled. Got a bit carried away with adding fish since we were both very excited with our new tank.

Anyway, I have seen a lot of posts suggesting that if you get media from a cycled tank or add a filter from a cycled tank, then your tank will be cycled. I think it works to accelerate the cycling process, but factors to consider are
1) the old bacteria is being introduced into different water, GH, KH, pH may not be exactly the same and some bacteria loss may occur
2) this method does not account for the bio load of more than a few fish, so you still need to start with just a few fish and slowly add new to give the bacteria throughout the tank time to increase enough to accommodate more fish. There is some suggestion out there that once a tank is cycled you are good to go fully stocked
3) feeding every second day is not a bad idea
4) do not put otos in a tank less than 6 months old

Just my thoughts on what I think I learned from this little crisis, to save someone else from this mistake. Do you think that I have this right?


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

yes and no...

otocinclus is not that sensitive. You just need to get good stock.

using part of your old media is good. But that doesn't mean an instant cycle. To keep this simple, say you have 2 filters and substrate and decor. Your bacteria are spread across all surface. Say you have 30 fish in your tank. If you take out 1 filter for your new tank, you have enough to support less than 10 fish in your new tank. Your old tank also get less good bacteria so you need to feed less. Now if you only take some media and some gravel, depends on how much, you might not have much there.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree with Charles. Anytime you add a bigger load of fish you could still go through a mini cycle.
first line of defense is always do a wc . Never start adding meds right away. As far as filters go..alternate your rinsing and rinse very little for awhile when your still getting it seeded. 
When your nitrates climbed it may have meant your cycle was all of a sudden working well as nitrates are the end product. 
I added ottos to my tanks at the shop the first few weeks of it running. . I don't believe the 6 month deal.they need to have a good food source . It could've been the nitrate rise that upset them. 
Just let it run well for awhile without adding anything else .


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## Niku (Feb 11, 2014)

Yep my planted 90 had algae issues in week 3 so I added 20 Otto's(yes I know its a ridiculous number and I love it ) and I think I have lost one in the past 7 months and it happened out of the blue


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I think the algae is the key here. Most new tanks have little to none. I read about someone cycling their tank with otos, but they provided lots of algae-covered driftwood.


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

maximusfish - don't give up! You are doing a lot of things right! 
I'm a newbie, but I have learned one thing - very few things *actually* speed up a cycle (too many variables, as you point out!). Even media from another tank, or religiously dosing with stability. These things help, for sure, but in my (limited) experience, patience is the only remedy. I think earlier posts about mini-cycles when you add new fish are bang on.

I have heard that otos often need supplemental food even in a tank with some algae- presumably you could feed them to mitigate the fact that your tank is new?
Mine have happily chowed down on:
1) algae pellets (I buy the hikari brand, but only give them a small portion of a pellet - one whole one is too much and disintegrates before they have time to eat it)
2) pleco logs (don't remember who makes them, but my otos love them)
3) zucchini (some say blanch them, but my LFS advised against it - I just cut a slice and put it in the tank using a veggie clip, and take it out a day or two later).

I feed them one of these things about once a week. So far so good!
Good luck!


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## UnderseaGal (Mar 4, 2014)

Also - if you ever have a sick fish, post a picture in the "hospital" section (with a description of behaviour, etc. as appropriate).
There are some serious experts on this forum and they are super helpful!


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

I think part of the cycle issue was you said you didn't have any fish in the tank for the first week. Just plants. The bacteria needs a source of Ammonia to stay alive. Than you started adding fish. Within a few weeks the crash started happening. As I said in one of my previous posts, this is common with newbies but you've done what you are supposed to do. Ask for help! You've now learned a lot and are well on your way. Having a nice fish tank is a process. Most aquarists have lost fish over the years. Learning from it and not making the same mistake is all part of it. After a few months your tank will be where it needs to be. It just takes time. This hobby is full of opinions and what works well for one, doesn't always work for another. Hang in there!!!


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