# I Need A Better Plan



## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I have black phantom tetras, bleeding heart tetras, pepper cories, and a clown pleco in a 26g bowfront tank. The pleco has killed a few fish already and the ones left are stressed. The pleco is my favorite though. So I think I'll sell everything but the pleco. I want to replace the fish with something else that can fend for itself against the pleco. I've been considering Odessa Barbs. Would that work? If I got an angelfish instead would the pleco fin nip?
I prefer a single largish fish but a school is alright too. Any suggestions?


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## Keri (Aug 2, 2010)

Do you actually see the pleco attacking the fish or just eating the dead bodies?


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## Immus21 (Jun 14, 2010)

Are you sure the Pleco is what the problem is? I have a Clown Pleco and it tends to spend most of it's time hidden. Can you tell us a little more about your setup? Do you have ample hiding places? Driftwood? Water parameters?

Sent from my GT-I9000M using Tapatalk 2


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

I agree with Keri...A common pleco sure, but a clown pleco I am not too sure it would to this degree.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

put one of my juvenile red devils in there, that'll straighten that pleco out..


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

I've only seen pleco's (not common) aggressive when their foot is at jeopardy, then they will chase away or lash out at a fish, thats it. My phantoms keep clear of the pleco when he's eating, and i've had the school for a long time, with only what would seem natural deaths


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Ammonia and nitrite are 0. Nitrate is slightly under 5. PH is 7.2. No I haven't seem him bully at all but it's all I can figure is what's happening. It's a planted tank and has driftwood. The temp is 80-81 degrees f. The cories go to the heater and just lay there for hours. The tetras have torn fins. Yet both species still eat. The BHTs are the only ones other than the pleco who seem normal. All fish are young except the Bleeding Heart Tetras.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The clown pleco, if it is the Panaque maccus, is a wood eater and should not even care about the other fish in the tank. Something else is doing it.


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## Immus21 (Jun 14, 2010)

Do you think the tetras might me fin nipping? What are the school sizes you have? Maybe consider just keeping more of one species and see if the casualties stop. I am almost certain that your clown pleco is not the cause. Pics of the fin damage may help to identify a cause.

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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

The BPTs were at 5 but now 3. Cories were at4 but now 3. Bleeding hearts are at 2. It could be them.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

26 gallons seems a tad small for two schools of tetras, corys, and a pleco. Could be that inadequate school size/not enough space is bringing out aggression from the tetras... they are relatives of the piranha after all... I would try giving them more room and making sure the schools of tetras are 8 or more to spread out the aggression. Then you could add some more peppered corys, they're a joy to watch in a proper sized group.

-George


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

One of the cories also has a sunken belly. It's definitely not from underfeeding. They get well fed. They often look dead but aren't. I always did want just the pleco and another fish. I didn't really want the tetras in the first place but they seemed to be the only option. What's a good fish instead? I like schools but they don't seem to have much personality.


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

I have all sorts of pleco in a 75 with black tetra and cardinal tetra, no issue there. No fancy expensive types like someone here keeps and of course stay miles away from the common pleco.

I highly doubt that you pleco is hunting down your fish. Most likely chewing on their dead bodies.

Just remember a 26g is not a large tank by any mean. A full grown pair of angels will fill it up quick enough. Your clown pleco will be fine with angels.

I think Odessa barbs are known to be aggressive. A lovely fish but not a good mix with angel IMHO - others may think otherwise.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I meant Odessas or angels, not both. Is a single angel okay? Which would be a better choice? Angels or Odessas?


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Seems to be something wrong with the tank and not due to the pleco. It just generally looks like the fish are stressed from something. Post a picture of your tank setup to show the type of furnishings. 
What do you have inside your filter? 
What type of filter?
What lighting do you have? 
Places for fish to hide?
What type of substrate?
GH? if any.

That may help us help you.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Filter is a Fluval C3. It has 2 layers of biomax in it, bioscreen, and foam. The tank is in a very sunny room so the temp tends to be warm. The larger fish are fine. The small fish aren't doing as well. There are also ghost shrimp in the tank which are also fine. The tetras (both species) seem to be okay this morning. The cories are still acting strange.FishTank.jpg picture by Jdlw1695 - Photobucket


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Just embedding your pic for you.










I would say it's the bleeding hearts too. A couple of friends of mine had Pristella tetras and Emperors in 2 different small tanks, and the Pristella bullied everything in the tank until they got really old and the Emperors even killed some cories.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks. I think I'll get rid of the cories and tetras. I'll find them a new home. So would it work if I had just an angel with the pleco?


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I can also get a 2" Bala Shark I found out about. If I grew it out and had just that, an angel, and the pleco, would that work if I sold the bala when it gets to say 6" or so? Is it even worth it?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Nope, I would never put a bala shark in a planted tank.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Okay, thanks. I won't do that then. How about the angel?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't see any problem with an angel, although I think they are social so you may want 3 or 4, but I'm no angel expert.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I've never had one but wouldn't 3-4 overstock the tank? Fro what I've heard it's recommended to have either 1 or several in a school.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

4 angels with a single pleco? No. 4 angels with all those other fish? Yes.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Really? So I could have 4 angels and the pleco? Could I keep them until mature size?


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

I doubt it's your Clown Pleco,mine never went near any of My other Fishes and hid most of the time.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I've got a few people who are wanting the fish. Can I put a gold gourami with an angel? How long can the tank only have the pleco and shrimp until I get the new fish? I don't want it to become uncycled.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Pleco126 said:


> I've got a few people who are wanting the fish. Can I put a gold gourami with an angel? How long can the tank only have the pleco and shrimp until I get the new fish? I don't want it to become uncycled.


If you have any livestock, it can't be "uncycled". And a pleco is a big waste producer. I wouldn't put the gourami in there. Focus on your objective if you want angels. Just get those and get rid of everything else and the pleco.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

How many? I might be able to get them today or tomorrow.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I got the fish yesterday. So far it stays mostly in the back corner but swims across the back of the tank sometimes. I guess it just needs more time to adjust.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

You got an angel? I wouldn't get any more than one, unless you upgrade to a big, tall tank and then I would definitely get 6+ to keep the dominant one from killing any submissive ones by spreading out the aggression. From what I've read six seems to be the magic number for angels.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

THe tank is fairly tall. The angelfish is starting to get more used to the tank but is still very shy. Won't eat either. I've had that happen with bettas too. So hopefully it'll start eating soon. I don't know much about angelfish though.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

My Keyhole cichlid was a little shy when I first got him in my tank, (I just got him recently) and I got 16 tetras in there with him, and he is completely different, because in the wild the small fish swim around all the time overhead unless there are big dangerous predators nearby.. So naturally an inactive tank makes smaller fish nervous. I'm not sure if you still have the other fish.. but bht and bst both have reputations as fin nippers apparently but having 6-8 per species apparently will keep them from attacking tankmates.

If I were you I would trade in the tetras for something that shoals at the top of the tank. And using a dark background and having lots of floating plants, hornwort etc makes a lot of fish feel less nervous. 

Hope that helps!

-George


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## The Guy (Nov 26, 2010)

I agree with the comments regarding the clown pleco, they spend most of there time hiding out eating wood. I have had them and found they are non-aggressive towards tank mates. I have some rubber lip plecoes and they seem to be a little aggressive but only when eating.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

bala sharks easily get to 10" and im sure tey get bigger bad choice


Pleco126 said:


> I can also get a 2" Bala Shark I found out about. If I grew it out and had just that, an angel, and the pleco, would that work if I sold the bala when it gets to say 6" or so? Is it even worth it?


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

Pleco126 said:


> I can also get a 2" Bala Shark I found out about. If I grew it out and had just that, an angel, and the pleco, would that work if I sold the bala when it gets to say 6" or so? Is it even worth it?


No for multiple reasons.
1) They are low value fish and you will most likely have difficulty selling a single large Bala.
2) They need (or prefer) to be in schools of 6.
3) They require alot of room, if the tank is too small they will smack into the walls and injure itself.
4) And as with above poster they get to 12" and sadly get stunted most of the time, don't do this to another one.

Odessas would have been a better choice. Angelfish are social, its best to keep them in pairs or in groups of 6 (The minimum amount of individuals you should keep for most cichlids(If you are aren't keeping singly)) and as with what George said dithers do seem to bring out the inner tiger for Angelfish BUT they are a cichlid that will hunt down and eat tetras.


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## sarcastickitten (May 26, 2012)

I would have to agree with everyone in regards to the pleco... I have a 55 gal that I had down sized from a 75 due to the tank breaking... I have 3 giant plecos and they are some of the most docile fish I have had, I do had one huge angel, I got him when he was the size of a quarter and now he is as big as my palm! And I hade some rabosas and tetras in there and I did notice that my angel, betas, and rosey barb were bullying the tetras, unfortunately I have lost all but two tetras, and I caught both the angel and beta eating the tetras... The barb was more interested in nipping the fins off... The angle seems content to leave the two remaining tetras alone now, but it did kill the betas... Despite their name being 'angel' they sure are mean... Lol


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

The angel is only in with a pleco and several shrimp. Would another angel be good? Thanks for all the advice. I won't get a bala.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

i'm no expert but from what i've read the problem with a pair of angels is that they have to be a 'pair', they are cichlids and they can get nasty, i've read that sometimes even a proven pair can end up fighting when they're moved to a new tank. also they grow big so watch out for your shrimp.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

So the one should eventually come out of hiding?


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

if he's hiding that means he's afraid, try adding 6-8 pencilfishes or something as dither fish, and some floating plants


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

What about neons?


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

i've never kept neons before but from what I've read angelfish can get over 6 inches long and your neons will be lunch... maybe cardinals or rummy nose would work better?


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

Neon/Cardinal tetras are the Angelfish's natural food fish in the wild. They will be eaten. The thing about angels is they wll attack and kill fish to eat even if they are bigger than their mouths (unlike most cichlids, if the fish is bigger than its mouth it will ignore them). I've seen angels bite neon tetras in half.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Can someone list fish that won't fin nip or get eaten? Thanks. My main concern is to get the angel comfortable.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

emperor tetras get pretty big. all tetras should be in groups of their own species 6 or more, your 2 bh and 3 phantoms and 3 tetras from what I see in your sig should go back to the store, a lot of tetras can be pretty aggressive though, having less than 6 min fish per school they can actually stress some species of fish to death. and tetras are all relatives of the piranha, a fish famous for being more than a little nippy... . also schooling fish just look so much cooler in a good sized group.
I don't know anything about bigger tetras though, so you'd have to research whatever species you end up getting I like fish that don't turn into 'tank busters'
I would recommend putting a background or at least black paper behind that tank in the picture...


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

Momobobo said:


> Neon/Cardinal tetras are the Angelfish's natural food fish in the wild. The will be eaten. The thing about angels is they wll attack and kill fish to eat even if they are bigger than their mouths (unlike most cichlids, if the fish is bigger than its mouth it will ignore them). I've seen angels bite neon tetras in half.


yikes! thanks for telling us, never would have guessed an angel would take something bigger than its mouth...


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I need to update my sig. It's now ONLY the angel and the pleco in the tank. I'm still not sure if the angel is eating yet. I put a bloodworm in the tank and when I get back a few minutes later, it'll be gone but the fish is still hiding in the corner. I honestly would prefer not to get anymore fish but if need be I will. I just want my fish to eat and be happy.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't know what to say. All the angels I've had have been greedy little pigs. However get them out of a school without dithers and they do get more shy. Not to the degree your fish is though...is there sufficient cover in the tank?


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

OK, small fishes have an instinct to swim around in groups, which is why people think that angels are schooling fish. They're actually territorial, but when they're in groups of six or more, the other five angels act as "dithers" for each other one. It makes them feel safe, because no fish swimming around tells them there's a predator nearby, which makes them act weird. (IE hiding all the time, aggressive behaviour etc) 

Six full grown angels won't fit in your tank though. so you need something else to make your angel feel safe, or get a bigger tank and add five more angels.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

I'll have to get some smaller schooling fish then. I set a camera up on a stand and took a 15 minute video of the tank just after feeding. For the first half of the video nothing happened, then the angel swam slowly across the back of the tank. With 5 minutes left in the video, the power went off. As soon as that happened he got more active and swam across the back of the tank. It looked like he was chasing his reflection. It was hard to see if he ate or not but when I got back into the room I couldn't find the food.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

I've never had angels but that doesn't sound like very natural behaviour....

like i said before, get a dark background on that tank, get some hornwort or indian fern to make your angel feel safe and secure, get some schooling fish that will grow with the angel and end up too big for him to eat preferably 8 to 10 of each species.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

The angel has come to the front of the tank now and is slowly getting more social. I do have a black background. I'd prefer not to get schooling fish in case something goes wrong and I have to end up selling them all which has happened before. Would say 5 Black Skirt Tetras not fin nip? Would it be safe to assume there would be no big problems?


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

no, that would be a bad idea... all tetras have complex social hierarchies, some species are more aggressive and will either hide all the time or possibly get hyper aggressive and hurt or kill tankmates, 
(which I suspect was the original problem... Corydoras paleatus are VERY hardy fish - that your peppered corys were dying is a sign to me that something was very wrong) 
YOUR SCHOOLING FISH MUST BE IN GROUPS OF 6+ and it's been proven than having groups of schooling fish in groups of less than 6 increases aggression. better even 10 or 12... 

you don't need tankmates for the angel, just a strategy to make shy cichlids more outgoing in general, I find having driftwood and floating plants (especially hornwort) around makes both my keyhole cichlid and my new angelfish very happy.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Thanks. Maybe it's the breeders that the LFS gets the cories from but I've never had good luck with cories. My substrate is also gravel so maybe that was part of the reason too.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't think you realize how vicious some tetras can get when they're not kept properly. I'm guessing your corys were literally stressed to death by constant bullying.


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## Pleco126 (Jun 17, 2012)

Yeah that sounds likely. I guess I'll just leave the tank as is other than adding some floating plants.


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## gsneufeld (Jan 28, 2012)

Too bad you're in Kamloops or I would give you some hornwort for free.. it's very pretty but grows like mad! I have tons of it.


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