# Fish Store Ethics



## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

I replied to a current fish store ad in a different post about advertising a "rare" species which is a great looking fish. But going to their store, they are only selling the males. In this case it is a killifish which is not often sold in fish stores. Killifish are very short lived fish - that's why they are called annual fish. Without selling females there is no way to protect your investment because they will all die within 6 to 12 months. Is it ethical for a fish store to charge such high prices when they know full well that fish won't survive long?


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## Pamela (Apr 21, 2010)

It would be unethical if they were selling the fish as pairs and knew for a fact that they were all males. Not everybody wants to breed their fish though. Some people are willing to pay a little more for a flashy (male) fish to be in their tank ...hopefully they know enough about killi's to know that they have a somewhat short life span.


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## barvinok (Nov 20, 2011)

I think it is ethical, you can see it with other kinds of fish too. 
BTW this killi's lifespan 2+ years.


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## Kimrocks (Aug 30, 2011)

Learnt something new, I know there are annual plants but not about annual fishes - there must be other varieties like those as well? 

This is why I enjoy BCAquaria, an endless stream of knowledge and experience on the hobby.

BTW - Unless the intent is to stir up a debate over seller integrity, perhaps a suggestion that the seller must inform potential customers when selling could be more effective.

Even more productive, would be perhaps to start a thread on "Annual Fishes" - likely not a lot of people know about this. Which types of fish? How do they keep species going? etc.

By immediately citing possible lack of ethics, it could be seen as fingers being pointed - a tit-for-tat often ensues and we lose the opportunity to learn from this.

Providing such info keeps everyone vigilant on such matters (both buyers and sellers).

Keep up the great work!


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## mikebike (Sep 8, 2010)

There are many private breeders here on the forum that sell Killifish.

I have seen killifish for sale here also.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Good post Kim. Here are some threads you might be interested in checking out:
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/bree...ate-oct-2dn-2013-a-38694/?highlight=killifish
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/memb...ing-killi-eggs-nothobranchius-patrizii-32633/
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/afri...breeding-killifish-22197/?highlight=killifish
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/freshwater-chat-9/killifish-10232/?highlight=killifish
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/memb...ish-breeding-center-4181/?highlight=killifish
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...know-there-were-eggs-850/?highlight=killifish

As for the topic at hand.....Maybe not ethical, ethical may not even be the fitting word ....but it is surely typical. Being that the supplier won't supply females, I guess it is considered acceptable that they ask high prices due to the "rarity", regardless of the lifespan of whatever. Kinda like shrimp, some are high priced and dont have a long lifespan either, but atleast most breeders don't hoard the females so you can actually build a colony of them overtime. 
Luckily for the Killifish Breeder/supplier the male is more so sought after then females as they usually look better and are often more colorful (as previously mentioned). There are some species of fish that stores won't bring in females due to lack of sales and some people do not care about breeding and just want the more colorful male.....certain Gourami's is a fine example of that. But in the case of the Killi ..the supplier keeps the females, in turn keeping the "rare" status of that fish on the market so they can keep charging higher prices to retailers.... who in turn charge us, what we may feel is , unreasonably high prices. But there are many people that pay, what I consider, unreasonably high prices for alot of different fish, which doesn't help bring the prices down either lol 
As for Killifish, there are alot of people really in to keeping them, so I can see where a higher price at the LFS would be in effect for "rare" species. Like it or not, thats how it is with most any LFS that carries them.
On a side note, there are Killifish clubs around you may want to check out. Most likely find better prices and selection through them I would think. just my thoughts


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

When Endlers first appeared in the market 15 or so years ago, it was almost impossible to find Endler females for sale. To this day, it's rare that you find a store that carries female dwarf gouramis. Quite often, stores only carry male bettas.

As someone said earlier, I think it's fine so long as the store advertises them as males only. It's certainly not unethical


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## mikebike (Sep 8, 2010)

I have been told that some Aisan sources only sell sterile females (fish) to make sure they cannot be bred


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## mikebike (Sep 8, 2010)

One of the sponsors is a killifish breeder
Fantasy Aquatic

from his Facbook stock list:

**KILLIFISH**

Clown Killie
African Lamp Eye 
Aphyosemion primigenium
Aphyosemion cognatum 
Fundulopanchax Oeseri
Fundulopanchax Gardneri Gardneri


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Yet, at times you cannot say that it is the store that brought in only males for sale. The issue may be with the wholesalers who ship only males to the stores for a reason.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

jobber said:


> Yet, at times you cannot say that it is the store that brought in only males for sale. The issue may be with the wholesalers who ship only males to the stores for a reason.


That is the case ....with this particular one the OP is referring to


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## DBam (Aug 9, 2010)

jobber said:


> Yet, at times you cannot say that it is the store that brought in only males for sale. The issue may be with the wholesalers who ship only males to the stores for a reason.


+1 
Cherry barbs, Congo tetra, apistos, and various African cichlids are some other examples of fish that are often imported only as males. It would only be unethical for someone to knowingly lie to a customer for selling breeding pairs from these shipments, but that holds for lying about anything. Also, short lifespans are typical of fish who's environment rapidly changes between extremes; they lay their eggs and die as the dry season sets in.

If I had an attractive, rare fish that took me a bit of work to track down and import, I would likely sell only the more attractive sex to the LFS, if said sales supported my hobby.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

For something like killies, an LFS would rather import pairs and sell pairs, than just males, knowing there is a far larger market for pairs than single males. So this is totally a breeder/wholesaler issue, not something done on purpose by the LFS. As the LFS stated in that thread, he's looking for a source to get pairs in since he knows there's a bigger market for pairs.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

May be try to buy from the killifish club members instead if you do not want to buy just the male.
I saw so many pairs of very attractive killifish in the monster auction. I knew nothing about them so I did not buy but I must say those fish were just gorgeous.


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

DBam said:


> +1
> Cherry barbs, Congo tetra, apistos, and various African cichlids are some other examples of fish that are often imported only as males. It would only be unethical for someone to knowingly lie to a customer for selling breeding pairs from these shipments, but that holds for lying about anything. Also, short lifespans are typical of fish who's environment rapidly changes between extremes; they lay their eggs and die as the dry season sets in.
> 
> If I had an attractive, rare fish that took me a bit of work to track down and import, I would likely sell only the more attractive sex to the LFS, if said sales supported my hobby.


+1 Dbam +2 jobber

This is what I have found while I'm researching/studying apistos.. there is only one LFS that I know of in lower mainland sells apisto pair.. most of LFSs that sells apistos either sells only males/females or unsexed juvis. wholesalers/breeders want to only sell males to LFSs on rare species because it's hard for THEM to get/raise females thus they want to keep females for breeding. (e.g. sp steel blue)

as for the ethical issue, I'm ok with LFS being honest about the sex but there are couple of LFSs that lied to me or others by saying " you will get at least a pair if you buy 4 or more" when it's clearly male only tank. one case, the employee simply didn't know which is honest mistake but the employee refused to believe me and almost got angry at me when I explained about the apistos on another case. the later case to me is unethical.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

cgjedi said:


> I replied to a current fish store ad in a different post about advertising a "rare" species which is a great looking fish. But going to their store, they are only selling the males. In this case it is a killifish which is not often sold in fish stores. Killifish are very short lived fish - that's why they are called annual fish. Without selling females there is no way to protect your investment because they will all die within 6 to 12 months. Is it ethical for a fish store to charge such high prices when they know full well that fish won't survive long?


Wow...first of all, this species of Killifish is not an annual. If you were so interested in breeding them, I'd think you would take the time to find out. Not everybody is looking to breed fish, some just want something pretty to look at. Case and point, Male Guppies sell far more than female guppies.

Second, the wholesaler only sent the shipment with males. How this could even become a question of a LFS's ethics is beyond me, when it is the wholesaler who has withheld the females from the shipment. As mentioned numerous times, this is very common and has nothing to do with the fish store's policies. Most of the employees did not know of the fact that they were all male, most patrons would not know or even care either. A fish's gender matters only to a very small percentage of visitors to a pet store.

ps: I feel you, I was bummed out too. What makes it worse is this killi is supposed to be incredibly easy to breed, a shame.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

If Im not mistaken, the "ethic" part was more about a high price on a fish that has a shorter lifespan than most, since females are not available to breed more. Just going by the actual question the OP asked:

" Is it ethical for a fish store to charge such high prices when they know full well that fish won't survive long? "


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

Diztrbd1 said:


> If Im not mistaken, the "ethic" part was more about a high price on a fish that has a shorter lifespan than most, since females are not available to breed more. Just going by the actual question the OP asked:
> 
> " Is it ethical for a fish store to charge such high prices when they know full well that fish won't survive long? "


I agree with you John.. What I meant was it's not ethical that LFSs or their employees knowingly lie about fishes... not the high price on fishes with short livespan..

I should have been more clear on my previous comment. 

IMO, LFSs have to charge more on rare fishes even if it has short life span. rare fishes = high price. simple


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

There are a lot of areas to this that I believe the "ethic" part could be applied to, or maybe its not a subject of ethics but more capitalism.

Supplier/Breeder, who only supply male so they keep themselves making money, and can then set the price of the fish to water the market will pay for them by having a monopoly to some extend. Of course this sucks because the prices are artificially inflated, the hobbyist who wants to attempt to breed can't even if its just for the fun of it, but at the same time there are positives to this. The fish that make it to the store, changes are they are all from a single spawn, or multiple spawns from same parents, if someone is complaining about a fish that doesn't live a long life compared to others, well inbreeding fish will make that happen even more! Also, stores probably wouldn't carry the females of certain fish as the males are the colourful ones if they were available. How many new comers to the hobby are going to pickup the fish with a cheap price tag on it and has no colour? If a store stocked them, they'd have them sitting there dying in there tanks as no one, or not very many people would actually buy them due to their looks mainly.

This is compounded by LFS's charging huge mark ups on the fish justify it by saying "we have bills to pay", which are already artificially high in price from the supplier to begin with. Now this isn't true for all LFS but to give you a example on the silvertip bnp I sell. I've been offered by a LFS close to me, $2-3 each and I know they'd put a $5 price tag on them, from another which I've still go store credit I need to use up from but can't find anything in the store that isn't hugely marked up or worth buying, gave me $4 and put a $20 price tag on them.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

You can buy breeding pairs of killies from many places...even on ebay. 
Here are just some examples of which you need to have them shipped to the US but there are many.
2 breeding pairs of killies (Australe killiefish) for $32 
2 Young Breeding Pair of Chocolate Australe Killifish | eBay
3 breeding pairs for $35
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Breeding-pair-Aph-Splendopleure-Tiko-Green-killifish-/161140431020


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

Fish rookie said:


> You can buy breeding pairs of killies from many places...even on ebay.
> Here are just some examples of which you need to have them shipped to the US but there are many.
> 2 breeding pairs of killies (Australe killiefish) for $32
> 2 Young Breeding Pair of Chocolate Australe Killifish | eBay
> ...


I believe the OP was talking about "Australe Orange Killi", neither of which your posts link to.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Just for clarification. The killis for sale which were being described as "rare" are not rare in the killifish breeding world - just rare to see them sold in fish stores. And my mistake, australes are one of the longer lived species of killifish. But the point remains, there was no information on the tank that they were males only (for the unknowing fish buyer).

One other point on questionable practices. If a store has a tank full of beautiful fish, say blue rams, but they are all very noticeably infected with ich should they put a notice on the tank informing people of this? Or do they still sell the fish as if nothing is wrong? In addition, if all the tanks in that bank are sharing the same water through the filters, should they put a sign quarantining all those fish while they medicate them first before selling them? or?


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

cgjedi said:


> Just for clarification. The killis for sale which were being described as "rare" are not rare in the killifish breeding world - just rare to see them sold in fish stores. And my mistake, australes are one of the longer lived species of killifish. But the point remains, there was no information on the tank that they were males only (for the unknowing fish buyer).
> 
> One other point on questionable practices. If a store has a tank full of beautiful fish, say blue rams, but they are all very noticeably infected with ich should they put a notice on the tank informing people of this? Or do they still sell the fish as if nothing is wrong? In addition, if all the tanks in that bank are sharing the same water through the filters, should they put a sign quarantining all those fish while they medicate them first before selling them? or?


I think you have the answers on what you first asked if I'm not mistaken..
1. it is wholesaler/breeders issue on male only tank.
2. it's unethical to lie to customers about fishes that they are selling but not ethical related issue on high price with short life span.

I have seen very similar thread like this that turned out to be ugly.. even though it's still ethical related question, I think what you ask now is bit off from your original question.. No offence..

As for your question, yes I have seen that when I wanted to buy gold rams. I asked the employee about it and he said " yes they are infected with ich but we are treating them and you can pick fishes that does not have ich on them". I ended up buying gold rams from the different LFS. is it ethical to sell sick fishes? no it's not. I don't know if this particular employee knows about ich as they have to be treated even after all visible sign is gone though. Yes there is only one LFS that I have seen where they put the sign on.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

cgjedi said:


> Just for clarification. The killis for sale which were being described as "rare" are not rare in the killifish breeding world - just rare to see them sold in fish stores. And my mistake, australes are one of the longer lived species of killifish. But the point remains, there was no information on the tank that they were males only (for the unknowing fish buyer).
> 
> One other point on questionable practices. If a store has a tank full of beautiful fish, say blue rams, but they are all very noticeably infected with ich should they put a notice on the tank informing people of this? Or do they still sell the fish as if nothing is wrong? In addition, if all the tanks in that bank are sharing the same water through the filters, should they put a sign quarantining all those fish while they medicate them first before selling them? or?


Stronger point remains ....the unknowing fish buyer should be asking questions. While this appears that your turning points into a questions ....im getting confused as to the true intentions of this thread. It seems as though you already know the answers to all the questions your asking. Most are just common sense IMHO. If not then yes...if there are 10 tanks sharing the same water and filter and even one tank has ich....no they should not be selling any fish from any of those tanks. As for a notice on the tank.... though it wouldn't hurt, I do not see that as a necessity as long as the clerk informs potential buyers that they are being treated and not for sale at the present time. Now even with the Gold Ram example above, the employee was honest about them having Ich. Even with them willing to sell the fish, how many people you think would actuality buy anything out of that tank knowing even one fish has Ich? 
As for the Killifish, again I do not see a big need to put an all males sign on the tank. Perhaps wouldn't hurt to have it on the sale ad , but not so much on the tanks. Most potential buyers are going to ask these questions before purchasing if they really care to get both genders. So as long as the clerk answers honestly then that should be what matters. This is where I feel people should do the research before purchasing the fish. The clerks are going to answer questions asked, but you cannot expect the clerk to take half a day voluntarily telling you everything you need to know about the fish. Again this is where it pays to do some of your own research. Seems you may have already known the answer to your original question/points and not sure where your' going with all this. Ethical or not....it is their business and they have their reasons for pricing fish the way they do or not putting up more informative signs,. Maybe talking to the manager would get you a better price and answers to your questions. . Getting people to answer things that are common sense or you already know the answer to... is solving nothing here.
I think it is perhaps best to just close the thread at this point. But we'll see where it goes from here in fairness


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I too agree with John.
Also, I want to say I have seen many tanks in various LFS with ich when the store person still just sells the fish from those tanks as if nothing is wrong. This is unfortunate but true so you really need to be careful when you buy. Some customers do not even know what ich is. The store person may just be trying to sell the fish asap regardless. It is just the way things are sometimes in real life. If you see that is what they are doing, just do not buy from them.
You can say all kinds of negative things about the store but bottom line is it is a business and they are here to make money. A lot of customers do not know anything about ich, and may not even know why all their fish just die all the sudden. They may even go back to buy more fish and even some more chemicals to make their water "better." It is horrible but is what a lot of stores will do.
About the Australes killifish it does not seem to be very difficult to get breeding pair (hence female) or eggs from other sources. 
I know there are many members here who are also members of the killifish club and the person who replies on the fantasy aquarium section of this forum is also an expert on killie fish. Since Australes is not a very rare species from what I have read, I am sure they can help you or point you the right direction.
Good luck. 


cgjedi said:


> Just for clarification. The killis for sale which were being described as "rare" are not rare in the killifish breeding world - just rare to see them sold in fish stores. And my mistake, australes are one of the longer lived species of killifish. But the point remains, there was no information on the tank that they were males only (for the unknowing fish buyer).
> 
> One other point on questionable practices. If a store has a tank full of beautiful fish, say blue rams, but they are all very noticeably infected with ich should they put a notice on the tank informing people of this? Or do they still sell the fish as if nothing is wrong? In addition, if all the tanks in that bank are sharing the same water through the filters, should they put a sign quarantining all those fish while they medicate them first before selling them? or?


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I also want to take this opportunity to relate one of my experience about buying fish with a short life span and breeding pair. 
I went to buy some wild blue ram from Charles of Canadian Aquatic last year. I just told him I wanted 6 of the blue rams. Instead of just bagging them for me he took his time to explain to me that blue rams usually do not live very long, so he recommended that I got some smaller ones. He also showed me how to tell the difference between their genders and he told me he had bagged me some males and females so if I wanted I could try to breed them myself. Those were very healthy stocks that I kept for a long time. After I took down the tank I ended up selling them to another members here who also kept them for a long time. Great customer service for the mere $20 that I spent. 
There are many good stores and good sellers out there. Just shop around if you cannot find what you are looking for in one store. Hope you get what you are looking for.


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## cgjedi (Nov 11, 2013)

Really, the point of this thread is to see what matters to most people. Of course to a lot of people these are "common sense" issues. But do people actually make a point to talk to the managers of the fish store about these type of practices?


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## kacairns (Apr 10, 2012)

cgjedi said:


> Really, the point of this thread is to see what matters to most people. Of course to a lot of people these are "common sense" issues. But do people actually make a point to talk to the managers of the fish store about these type of practices?


Most people seem to just post online instead of talking to the managers and so on in store about concerns, I'm sure we've noticed a few threads dealing with different things of this nature lately.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

You realize every single pet store in existence has ich in their systems somewhere. Can you imagine them not being able to sell any of their fish because a supplier gave them a botched bunch? An employee telling you that they have Ich is already leaps and bounds above the norm. The concept of a quarantine tank exists for a reason. No source, no matter how reputable, is 100% sound. It is up to you to decide to purchase or not. It's unfortunate and deplorable, but once again its up to the buyer to take the time to look at the fish and RESEARCH. Ich is certainly not a discrete ailment is it?

(PS. Do realize that the fish store alluded to in this thread received this shipment in this state, Ich ridden and single gendered (in this case). This is the fault of the supplier, do you think the fish store is benefiting from this at all? They should be the one slagging the supplier. They never advertised them as pairs, and if you were serious about breeding them you would take the time to research and find out yourself. I would never trust a fish store employee on a serious purchase. Also realize and be rest assured that they working on a quarantine pod to solve this problem. Cheers)


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