# Tried a Walstad tank, having some issues. Please advise.



## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

*Size of tank:* 40 gallons. 36"W x 15"D x 19"H
*Type of lighting:* 36" LED strip, 6700K
*Duration of photoperiod:* 8 hours straight, just changed to 4 on, 6 off 4 on. Open to suggestions.
*Type of substrate:* Scott's Organic MiracleGrow under inert gravel.
*Frequency of dosing fertilizers:* SeaChem Flourish every 2 weeks, Metricide (SeaChem Excel) daily.
*Temperature of your tank:* 80F, 27C.
*pH, KH, GH:* pH ~6.4. I have no GH or KH tests, but water is soft.
*Nitrate levels:* _Edit:_ seems these have dropped to 10ppm with all that Pennywort. 
*CO2 source:* Currently Metricide, have a pressurized CO2 system in the works.
*Water changes:* Currently weekly, 50%; was twice weekly 50% when diatoms were an issue.
*Stock: *2x Angelfish, 2x Raphael Catfish, 1x Siamese Algae Eater (~3")
*Feeding:* 1 pinch of flakes twice daily, the occasional bit of seaweed for the SAE.

Anyway, onto my problems. This is a new-ish Walstad tank. I set it up about a month and a half ago, and have had nothing but issues. I tried to plant it as heavily as I could from the get-go with 4 medium Amazon Swords and ~25 stems of Staurogyne Repens, but this was obviously not enough. I experienced a diatom bloom which I treated with lots of water changes and by adding three big bunches of Pennywort as soon as I could. Luckily, this was enough to beat the diatom bloom.

I also now have some clear/white hair algae that I am trying to deal with. It's not bad, and I just changed my light schedule to hopefully thwart it. I'm just a bit peeved, because shouldn't the Metricide be keeping it back? I dose daily.

Despite my best efforts to choose easier plants, they've been melting. I knew to expect a die-off and regrowth at the start, but the die-off _hasn't stopped._ My swords' leaves are melting in a patchy fashion, not from the tips or bases. The pennywort is melting from the bottom leaves up. The staurogyne repens slowly loses leaves, also seemingly randomly, but at the same time new growth is coming from the base. Is there hope?

Using this diagram I've attempted to diagnose. I think it might be an iron or nitrogen deficiency, but can't be certain. Of course, there's also the chance it's a CO2 deficiency. Hopefully adding the pressurized setup on a low BPS will help, but I would also like to diagnose any other issues first. Lowering the light level seemed to help; I think it was too harsh before.

Some images of the plants.

I'm afraid to add more plants until I solve the melting issue, but I understand that adding more plants will help keep the algae nutrient deprived. I wish I could add oto catfish, but my angelfish get very aggressive when mating and I'm worried the otos would get killed.

So what do you think? Is there a nutrient or nutrients that I should try dosing, or should I hurry up and get my CO2 system going? More water changes? More or less light? I'm kind of lost.


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## AccidentalAquarist (Sep 11, 2013)

Been a long time since I read D. Walstad's book but the tank you've described doesn't sound like it follows her method. Her premise IIRC was to relax and let nature do the work.
Stop the additives, forget the CO2 and if possible switch out the LED for fluorescent. IMO LED technology hasn't developed enough to be used in planted tanks, especially in a Walstad system. Not sure if it's a case of too intense or tightly focused beam, I just know it doesn't work for me or many others I know.

The soil should contain the micro and trace nutrients needed for a long time, so flourish is redundant.
The small amount of organics in the soil also release CO2 as they breakdown, so metracide and CO2 are also redundant for a while too. 

Your white algae? I've only seen algae turn white if it's dead. It could also be a bacterial thing, like people see on untreated driftwood. Either way given time it will disappear on its own.
The plants, I'm going to suggest increasing flow to the tank. To me it looks like some areas just aren't getting the nutrients and light needed. If it is nitrate deficiency upping your feeding schedule will also help somewhat.

AA


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## Jeffski (Oct 2, 2012)

Another thing it could be is that there could be air pockets forming in your dirt layer. They could be preventing the plants from rooting properly and could lead to some root rot if there's too much air trapped, especially with heavy root feeder plants like swords. Try poking into your inert gravel and down into the dirt with a pointy object (I use my planting tweezers) to see if air bubbles are released from the dirt layer. You can also tell if there are "bumps" forming in the gravel layer where it was originally level where air could be bumping up the cap. 

I'm with AA about the white algae being probably a result of a fungal bloom due to the wood used in most organic dirt mix. It does go away with time.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

I think AA is probably on the right track. LED lights are a bit hit or miss (depends on the LED), particularly on the cheaper end. What fixture do you have?


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## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

It's a strip of LEDs, the kind that come in a roll. Electricity is very expensive where I live, so I traded out my SunBlaster for it before switching to Walstad. Never had any issues, but there is a dimmer on it so I can raise/lower the light level as needed. It disperses fairly evenly, about the same as the SunBlaster. I can take comparison pictures when I get home. 

The only reason I'm adding anything at all is because of the algae. The Metricide is supposed to help with algae control. I actually bought the CO2 setup with another tank in mind, but they're right next to each other so I was thinking that if it was actually a carbon deficiency I could try supplementing. 

Just added powerhead aimed along the back of the tank so the side with swords gets more flow. We shall see how this goes. Thank you for the suggestions. 

Does it look like a nitrate deficiency to you? My stock is fairly light for a tank with as many plants as I have, and I've been thinking of adding schooling fish.


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## taramin (Aug 18, 2013)

Did you get the 3528, 5050, or 5630 LED strip and do you only have 1 strip total for the entire tank? A single strip isn't as strong as you think it is even though it may look similar to your Sunblaster but I'm fairly certain that your Sunblaster is a lot stronger than a single strip.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Yeah... I expect that the LED's are probably not cutting it. Unless they're meant for growing plants LED's don't usually have the spectrum plants need (they're tweaked for human vision. Lumens wise they might be close; but plants have different requirements).


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## taramin (Aug 18, 2013)

Rockman said:


> Yeah... I expect that the LED's are probably not cutting it. Unless they're meant for growing plants LED's don't usually have the spectrum plants need (they're tweaked for human vision. Lumens wise they might be close; but plants have different requirements).


Actually, if he link up enough strips, he would have enough lighting since you're just increasing the amount of LEDs to compensate for the lower watts per LED. Also he is using 6700k LEDs which are considered as the ideal colour temperature for planted tanks. Having all 6700k LEDs will probably make the tank look more bland but that's nothing 1-2 strands of red LEDs won't fix.

But looking at the pictures of his plants, I don't think it's just a lighting issue since he does have Java ferns (?) that are melting which are lower light plants. I personally would just do water changes without adding any additional chemicals, etc. to the tank and salvage whatever plants you can. Maybe it could be that the ammonia spikes? I'm not too sure.


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## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

I tried to do research when getting plants and get low/medium light plants. The Amazon swords did fine in the tank before I rescaped it to a Walstad and had the same light, so I don't think the light is inadequate. I've been thinking about adding a couple of red and blue individual LEDs for color brilliance.

I don't think I've had an ammonia spike at all. All my tests have been 0 for ammonia and nitrites. A new test today was 0/0/5-ish. I'm starting to suspect more and more that it's a nitrogen deficiency.

Stopped metricide dosing as of yesterday. Poked the substrate, a couple bubbles came out but not many.

LED has 110 lights over a 36" length. I think they're 3528, but can't be sure since I ripped them out of a display unit that was getting thrown out at work. I think 5050 strips have many fewer nodes per foot than these, but Google seems to be down for me.

LED: http://i.imgur.com/zg9PwKR.jpeg
SunBlaster: http://i.imgur.com/vda9WkE.jpeg

The white fungus is pretty gross. Seems to be on everything. Any tips? I'm thinking about scrubbing it off with a toothbrush.


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## taramin (Aug 18, 2013)

I believe there are 2 options for both the 3538 and 5050 which are 150 LEDs per 5 metres or 300 LEDs per 5 metres.

Yeah you can probably do a scrubbing of the white algae/fungus and then do a water change afterwards. Another thing could be to spot dose 3% hydrogen peroxide and that should help getting rid of the algae.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

taramin said:


> Actually, if he link up enough strips, he would have enough lighting since you're just increasing the amount of LEDs to compensate for the lower watts per LED. Also he is using 6700k LEDs which are considered as the ideal colour temperature for planted tanks. Having all 6700k LEDs will probably make the tank look more bland but that's nothing 1-2 strands of red LEDs won't fix.


Colour temperature is misleading for planted tanks. It's just an indicator of what the light looks like; not what the bulbs actually put out spectrum-wise. I've never heard anyone recommending a specific colour temperature for LEDs, aside from aesthetic criteria. Although 6700K is the recommendation for flourescent (technically the grow bulbs put out a better spectrum; but the inefficiency of the phosphors used to make them lower the intensity to the point where you're probably better off with a standard daylight bulb). LED's are a different technology; so the old rules don't hold.

Personally, I wouldn't use LED's without a PAR measurement. There are too many different types of LED (and the ones that are good for planted tanks are expensive. If he's taken them from a random display case they're not likely to be plant-friendly).



taramin said:


> But looking at the pictures of his plants, I don't think it's just a lighting issue since he does have Java ferns


You mean the Amazon swords? Those are solidly medium light (I couldn't get mine to do much before I went to dual T5's).



jeremy said:


> It's a strip of LEDs, the kind that come in a roll. Electricity is very expensive where I live, so I traded out my SunBlaster for it before switching to Walstad.


Timescale? Plant issues take a while to develop.



jeremy said:


> The only reason I'm adding anything at all is because of the algae. The Metricide is supposed to help with algae control. I actually bought the CO2 setup with another tank in mind, but they're right next to each other so I was thinking that if it was actually a carbon deficiency I could try supplementing.


Doubt it's a CO2 problem. Although you could post your Kh and pH and we could double check that. Or just try it with a drop checker.



jeremy said:


> Does it look like a nitrate deficiency to you?


No... not really. Also, you still have detectable nitrate levels; so it's not like your plants have used all of it up. There should be lots of available nutrients in the soil layer as well.

My money's on lighting issue, based on what I know about your lighting, what your plants look like and the type of algae you're getting (the brown diatom stuff only ever takes off in low light conditions... the white stuff is probably fungus, which is likey associated with the soil releasing organic carbon through your gravel; it should go away after a while).

Just for giggles, put the sunblaster back on for a month or two; see what happens.


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## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

It's been months and months since I switched the lights. The plants started degrading only a couple weeks after going Walstad. The diatom algae also was thicker immediately under the light? 

I've had swords grow in another tank with almost no light at all. I dunno, it's just really confusing. 

I'll need to pick up a drop checker, since I need one from my soon-to-be high tech tank anyway. That one has a T2 light on it meant to hang under a cabinet. I like to get things for free.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

IMO Leave the ligt alone. You said it is what it is. If need be add a T5 strip light. $30 at your Local hydroponic store or Homedepot. Simple solution. 

Look for other issues.

You have 0 GH, 0 KH. That is an issue.

Im not a fan of metricide or excel. Co2 injection is more practical. I have read of people getting good results using both. Just my opinion

You are feeding plants every 2 weeks but performing 50% water changes every week. On the second week there will be barely any fertz in the water. Thats an issue. Feed plants twice a week, everyweek. No need to over do it.

Keep the lights on for a straight 8 hours. The whole on for a few hours, off for a few hours does not mimic real sunlight. People have their opinions on it. I think it's silly 

Plant leaves die, cut off any that look bad. The plant will try to repair itself which waste its energy. Cutting the bad leaves off will force the plant to focus on new growth not old. Also plants go into a bit of shock when being planted. A good trick is to remove a few larger leaves when you first plant a new plant. The amazon is a perfect example. Cut off 3 of the biggest leaves as far down as you can. This will force the plant to grow roots and new growth. People who clone plants cut the tips off the lower leaves for the same reason. It forces new growth

You can add Co2 but its not a must. No matter what the plants can only grow to the most limiting factor. Pumping co2 into the tank but having inadequate light will not make your plants grow better. The 4 factors are Light, Co2, Fertz, Substrate

Was this tank cycled/or started properly? It seems youve had a few issues. A 1.5 month tank is new. Its not un common to have issues. Overtime the tank balances out and it becomes less of an issue. It sounds like you have been doing a lot to this tank. Loving a tank to death happens. Sometimes you need to just let it be. Which is a great Beatles song LOL

found this article on line and thought its a good overview
Freshwater Aquarium Plant Care; Substrate, Ferts, CO2, Lighting


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

jbyoung00008 said:


> IMO Leave the ligt alone. You said it is what it is. If need be add a T5 strip light. $30 at your Local hydroponic store or Homedepot. Simple solution.
> 
> Look for other issues.
> 
> ...


Justin's totally right on all accounts here. Your plants will probably be alright with lower light. However, you need to add some minerals into the water. Most people worry about the macro nutrients and light and totally forget about GH and KH. If you have 0 in both accounts your tank will not succeed. So check them.

If your plants are new to the tank they will need to acclimatize, it's not uncommon that they will lose some leaves. The important thing is that they are putting out healthy (unstunted) new shoots. You will probably just need to wait it out. Just remove dying leaves or dying sections of the plants.

I'm with Justin that realistically a tank will need around 3 months to totally cycle. Things probably won't look too good until then.


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## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

It's definitely cycled, since it was running for a year beforehand and I kept the filter going on it. The ammonia converts, no problem. 

I switched the light back to the SunBlaster, RIP my electricity bill. Scraped the fungus off as much as I could, wiggled air out of the soil, and put a CO2 indicator in there. The indicator had not changed when I left home, but when I go back the plants should be in the respiration phase so we'll see what it says. 

My SAE loves the powerhead's extra flow, and plays in it all the time. It's cute.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

jeremy said:


> It's definitely cycled, since it was running for a year beforehand and I kept the filter going on it. The ammonia converts, no problem.


"You kept the filter going" What does that mean? How long was the tank without fish?


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## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

I moved the fish to a temporary tank while tearing down and rescaping my tank. The gravel was new for the rescape, but the filter was kept running on the temporary tank and put back on the original tank immediately after rescape. This tank was never without livestock except when there was literally no water in it.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

What is the deal with your power? The dual t5's in my 90 (108 watts) only cost me about 20 bucks a year. And that's not considering the bit where I'm using electric heat for most of the year (and thus any power used my my fish tanks could be considered as part of the heating bill).


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## jeremy (Oct 6, 2014)

It gets resold to us by the property owner at a premium. The power bill is very high. I tend to not even heat my house unless it's really cold out.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

jeremy said:


> It gets resold to us by the property owner at a premium. The power bill is very high. I tend to not even heat my house unless it's really cold out.


This strikes me as being somewhat illegal. Not that I know anything about it (although this makes me think I'm right. If it were me I might consider asking about that with somebody who knows this stuff.


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