# Buffers~help



## logan22 (Sep 6, 2010)

OKAY!! so im having trouble with this whole buffering thing!! i haven't gone ahead to use it yet because of the mixed feelings on it.. is it good? is it bad?...how much is to much? how much is to little?...can it kill your fish? yadda yadda yadda...i tested my kh and gh its pretty low...but my fish all seem to be just fine!! should i adjust it or leave it? OR are my fish are actually stressed out? really confused need hellllllllllllllllllp!


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## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

Questions for you:
- What fish do you have?
- What size tank do you have?
- Do you use Co2?
- Where do you live (more importantly what is your water source)?
- Have you tested your pH? What is it?


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## Marius (Sep 22, 2010)

logan22 said:


> OKAY!! so im having trouble with this whole buffering thing!! i haven't gone ahead to use it yet because of the mixed feelings on it.. is it good? is it bad?...how much is to much? how much is to little?...can it kill your fish? yadda yadda yadda...i tested my kh and gh its pretty low...but my fish all seem to be just fine!! should i adjust it or leave it? OR are my fish are actually stressed out? really confused need hellllllllllllllllllp!


Judging by the fish setups you have in your signature, I'd just keep a little aragonite sand in the tank, handful in the little ones, 5lbs in the big one. That will keep the water at a constant level.

Unless your fish are wild caught and in need of more sophisticated acclimatization, putting some aragonite sand mixed in the substrate will do the trick. At the same time, you can keep some driftwood in as well, as the two will balance each other: healthy tanins from the wood, constant pH due to the aragonite sand - in particular beneficial as it prevents the pH crash due to too many nutrients and so on...


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## beN (Apr 21, 2010)

id stay away from buffers..

all you want is a stable tank surraahh 

give me a call if you wanna chat about it..


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## target (Apr 21, 2010)

+1 for both Marius and BeN's comments. I don't use any buffers in my tanks besides some aragonite sand. Why mess with something when you don't have to? I have found that the less I play with the chemistry, the less problems Ihave. Can't say I have even tested my levels in over a year. Watch your fish, they'll tell you when they are unhappy.


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## donjuan_corn (May 6, 2010)

target said:


> +1 for both Marius and BeN's comments. I don't use any buffers in my tanks besides some aragonite sand. Why mess with something when you don't have to? I have found that the less I play with the chemistry, the less problems Ihave. Can't say I have even tested my levels in over a year. Watch your fish, they'll tell you when they are unhappy.


I LOVE THIS COMMENT!! Watch your fish they'll tell you when they are unhappy, so true!


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## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

I personally use buffer for the following reasons:

- I use CO2, which results in drastic changes (pH 6.8 at night 5.8 during the day)
- I have temperamental fish

With the buffers my pH is a constant 6.8. 

All of the fish on your list seem to be typical (i.e. not needing special water parameters), so unless you are using CO2 I wouldn't bother either.


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## pieces71 (Apr 21, 2010)

target said:


> +1 for both Marius and BeN's comments. I don't use any buffers in my tanks besides some aragonite sand. Why mess with something when you don't have to? I have found that the less I play with the chemistry, the less problems Ihave. Can't say I have even tested my levels in over a year. Watch your fish, they'll tell you when they are unhappy.


aragonite sand is a good buffer...I use crushed corals in my 90gal discus tank and Ph dead steady 6.8-7.0,by watching my fish they tell Ph is stable


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## donjuan_corn (May 6, 2010)

i have crushed coral, then I added three large pieces of drift wood to have a constant 6.3-5


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't use buffers, I don't have co2, so it doesn't really seem like a need to.


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## beN (Apr 21, 2010)

sarah,

if you want check out Monster Fish Keepers, lisa did a poll on buffers..im for certain they mostly said no/stay away


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## logan22 (Sep 6, 2010)

i dont use co2 either..dont know the first thing about planted tanks so i havent bothered...as for my fish they all seem to be happy for the most part.. i have some drift wood in there and some substrate sand im not sure what kind of sand!..my ph tested at 7.4...kh Gh were both at 50ppm


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

You know, this topic and people's misunderstanding of it, is what is really holding this hobby back in this province. My sticky explains it completely but it is a BC problem specifically. I am sure MFK has a lot of members that are not in BC and if they knew that your GH and KH were 0, they may sing a different tune. Of course without being exposed to our crazy water they would not think twice about stating they are not important. 
I fear with this sort of reaction, more and more hobbyists will fail in this province. The main focus AGAIN on this topic always falls back on pH and not the importance of it's relationship to Osmoregulation. 

Unfortunate. At least our store's livestock is not drowning in it's own fluids.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

My substrate made it possible not to care about it I suppose. I never had a ph swing while I had my common fish, and didn't have deaths. I tested the water parameters every two days and charted it. I never needed to add _additional_ buffering _personally_.


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## Jhon Cina (Sep 29, 2010)

Buffers makes it so the pH level is balanced-not too acidic or basic.


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## waterlilly (Aug 22, 2010)

To the people who use crushed coral to keep the PH steady: how much coral would you put in for a 29 gallon tank. 
I have some in mine but probably not enough since the PH is at 6.0. How often do I need to replace the coral?


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

waterlilly said:


> To the people who use crushed coral to keep the PH steady: how much coral would you put in for a 29 gallon tank.
> I have some in mine but probably not enough since the PH is at 6.0. How often do I need to replace the coral?


Waterlilly,
Give the thread "something to think about" a read, coral is really not the way to go with our water source.


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## waterlilly (Aug 22, 2010)

If I were to use the buffer you are talking about in your thread, wouldn't that raise the PH in my tank much too quickly for my fish to deal with? As I said, I haven't had any fatalities in over a year know and would like to keep it this way


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

If that were true, I would refer to the philosophy of don't fix what isn't broken. However to answer your question, you wouldn't be raising the PH or buffers dramatically, you'd be conditioning them by slowly raising it.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Tom Barr's GH booster doesn't raise PH, just doesnt have trace elements in it


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## jkam (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus, I read the thread but there's really no tips or instructions. I found it pretty hard to read, especially that wall of text. What I got out of it was to increase my gh/kh but with nothing to tell me how. I found it a waste of time and frustrating to read. You even posted that your water conditioner doesn't really do much for kh/gh but more for bonding metals and removing chlormine. So what are we supposed to do? 

If you really want to improve the hobby I suggest clearly showing us what we can do and put it in the first post to make it easier on us, the consumers. I'm not trying to be offensive but it was extremely hard to find info on what to do.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Please refer to his original post:
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/island-pets-unlimited-42/water-supply-issue-lower-mainland-715/

It's rather informative.


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## jkam (Apr 21, 2010)

Ahh, I see. That's all I wanted to know.

For those that are too lazy to read here's the most important quote



> This problem is easy to fix using products such as Replenish and Alkaline buffer. Correcting this will also stabilize pH and improve the overall health of the aquarium. Seachem Alkaline buffer for KH and Replenish or Equilibrium will raise GH.


One thing I want to know is how much marine salt people use to buffer their water. Almost everywhere I read, it's suggested to not use marine salt in a freshwater aquarium. Rastapus suggests using it to buffer water in one of the posts.



post #21 said:


> As I say we use marine salt or Replenish.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks jkaw


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

i use seachems african lake salts to raise GH and the malawi/vic buffer to raise KH, they work great and bigalsonline as well as JL has em for good prices
i put in 1 teaspoon of each for every 10gal of water i change and then adjust it up a bit more the next day if needed.

i prefer the powdered buffers over the liquid ones, its a bit more prep work but they last a lot longer so theyl save u money. the 1.2KG containers of seachem powder are like 25 bucks or so if i remember right.

if you have one of those hang on back breeder boxes, they work great for adding powdered buffer as the water passing thru will slowly dissolve it and move it into the main tank, easier than mixing it with water in a container then pouring it in.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

waterlilly said:


> If I were to use the buffer you are talking about in your thread, wouldn't that raise the PH in my tank much too quickly for my fish to deal with? As I said, I haven't had any fatalities in over a year know and would like to keep it this way


Buffers will increase your pH, just like the coral. However, buffers will also raise the mineral content in your water correcting our tap water's biggest problem. Clearly the coral is not working for you or your pH would not be 6.


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

all *buffering* means is the resistance to change, you can get buffers that adjust to different ph levels


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Mferko said:


> i use seachems african lake salts to raise GH and the malawi/vic buffer to raise KH, they work great and bigalsonline as well as JL has em for good prices
> i put in 1 teaspoon of each for every 10gal of water i change and then adjust it up a bit more the next day if needed.
> 
> i prefer the powdered buffers over the liquid ones, its a bit more prep work but they last a lot longer so theyl save u money. the 1.2KG containers of seachem powder are like 25 bucks or so if i remember right.
> ...


Mferko,
This post is terrific! You had the symptoms of gill flukes because of the lack of minerals/hardness in the water! If you had not raised your hardness, this condition would have likely got worse and probably led to bloat due to Osmotic shock! When that happens to the average hobbyist that is exactly what they do! Medicate! 
This type of post illustrates exactly what I am trying to get across! How many posts are on here every day dealing with strange behavior in peoples fish and when they give their water parameters everything is fine except they are not testing hardness! This issue is huge, it needs everyone on the same page to make the change for the better.
Incidentally recommending two sponsors in the middle of this topic, one of which is not a sponsor is eating at me. I devote a lot of time to this forum, a little respect on that front would be appreciated.


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## waterlilly (Aug 22, 2010)

OK, so I decided to look into this whole KH/GH issue for my tank as Rastapus recommended. I am really sorry, but I am still a little confused. 

My PH is 6.8 (with crushed coral). KH is 17.9 ppm (?). So if I add Alkaline Buffer to bring the KH to 50 ppm, wouldn't that drive the PH up too high? I don't want it to be more than 7. If I use the Alkaline Buffer, I imagine I would remove the coral, correct?

Also, one of the staff mentioned that I don't really need to worry about GH if my plants seem to be ok, so basically just monitor the PH and KH. Is that correct? I don't use CO2 and have mostly ferns.

Sorry to ask all those silly questions. I'm just worried that I am going to mess up my tank that has been working quite well. But I would like to give my fish the best possible habitat. Maybe my Gourami would have lived 5 instead of just 2 years!


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

i never measure my ph, just kh and gh
buffers stabilize the ph


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

waterlilly said:


> OK, so I decided to look into this whole KH/GH issue for my tank as Rastapus recommended. I am really sorry, but I am still a little confused.
> 
> My PH is 6.8 (with crushed coral). KH is 17.9 ppm (?). So if I add Alkaline Buffer to bring the KH to 50 ppm, wouldn't that drive the PH up too high? I don't want it to be more than 7. If I use the Alkaline Buffer, I imagine I would remove the coral, correct?
> 
> ...


Water lily,
You should remove your coral, yes. You are a good example of why coral does not work. Your KH is less then 1, clearly coral does not raise hardness. Whomever told you not to worry about their GH, likely has a higher GH without knowing it. GH is the really big issue where our level of 0 in the tap kills fish. As Mferko states above, it is more important to monitor your KH and GH then it is pH.


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## waterlilly (Aug 22, 2010)

Ok then, I decided to go for it! I bought the Seachem Alkaline Buffer and Equilibrium yesterday and did a water change today. I added the product at 1/2 dosage of what it said on the bottle to the new water. 
I guess paranoia set it and I'm wondering if I made a mastake with my calculations. I had the water tested yesterday: KH 40 (?), GH 25 (1?) and PH 6.2.
A couple of hours after the water change (36 litres of a 29 gallon), it reads: KH 3, GH 2, PH 7. Does this increase sound right?
Would I treat the replacement water the same way next water change, or will there be some sort of a build up in the tank over time? 
I never really cared much for chemistry - I guess it shows!


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

waterlilly said:


> Ok then, I decided to go for it! I bought the Seachem Alkaline Buffer and Equilibrium yesterday and did a water change today. I added the product at 1/2 dosage of what it said on the bottle to the new water.
> I guess paranoia set it and I'm wondering if I made a mastake with my calculations. I had the water tested yesterday: KH 40 (?), GH 25 (1?) and PH 6.2.
> A couple of hours after the water change (36 litres of a 29 gallon), it reads: KH 3, GH 2, PH 7. Does this increase sound right?
> Would I treat the replacement water the same way next water change, or will there be some sort of a build up in the tank over time?
> I never really cared much for chemistry - I guess it shows!


Waterlily,
Sounds like you are right on! Again, it depends on your fish but if you have softwater fish like tetras, your adjustments are great!


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