# Water Parameters Regarding Cycling



## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

I have a bit of a peculiarity, maybe I am doing something wrong, but something does not seem 100% right so I am gonna ask the question. Hope some of you gurus out there might be able to shed some light.

I have a 33 gallon long with a single AC70, 150W heater and CO2 injection at about 2bps, ADA Amazonia, and it is heavily planted. Aside from hardscape (20%), the tank is pretty much 80% planted if you look down from the top. I started cycling on November 9th, so this would be into the 6th week of my cycle. Brand new tank, brand new everything, so no old filter media with bacteria headstart. Aside from a bit of algae here and there, plants are growing well. So everything looks to be expected in terms of a planted tank.

But with cycling, my ammonia has been declining over the last few weeks from 4ppm down to now .25ppm. Things are looking like they are going in the right direction, but over all these weeks, no nitrite has registered at all, always reading 0. I also have nitrates at between 5 to 10ppm.

I guess I am not fully cycled since ammonia is still registering, despite getting nitrate readings. But does it seem weird that I have not seen any nitrites at all? And does this seem like I am getting closed to finished cycling?

much appreciated


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

It would help if you can provide more info:
-do you have any livestock in the tank while you're cycling?
-are you dosing any fertilizers?
-what are your water change regimes at the moment?
-# of lighting hours?

If your ammonia levels are decreasing, may be beneficial bacteria in your tank is doing its' job.


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## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

-do you have any livestock in the tank while you're cycling? no livestock
-are you dosing any fertilizers? relying just on the aquasoil atm. will start dosing in about two weeks.
-what are your water change regimes at the moment? did 70% every 3 days for the first 2 weeks, now i am down to 40% weekly
-# of lighting hours? 4 - 39w t5ho, of which i am just running 2 bulbs at the moment for 6hrs


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

also,
-what are you using to dechlorinate the water, if use any?
-what type of test kit are you using?


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## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

jobber said:


> also,
> -what are you using to dechlorinate the water, if use any?
> -what type of test kit are you using?


I use Seachem Prime, recommended dosage and API master test kit. It's a new kit, so expiry is well into 2018. And I do shake up the bottles and wait 5 mins for the colors, but nitrite has always been that cyan blue color.

Also, PH out of tap is around 7.2, but in the tank after the soil buffers it, it's at around 6.

If I understand the Nitrogen cycle correctly, the fact that ammonia is steadily declining and nitrates are showing, should mean the cycle is working. It's just weird that I've not seen any nitrite spike as should be expected. If it did happen, I shouldn't have missed it since I've been testing on average every 4 to 5 days.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

If your pH drops too much (I think it is below 6.2 or something like that) ammonia will exist as ammonium, which is much less harmful. However, once your pH rises they will convert back to ammonia, which is quite a bit more harmful.
You can cycle with adding stability from seachem, that should speed up the process.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

First thing that stands out to me is you say you are cycling your tank but you haven't said much about that.

What are you cycling it with? Most people use fish to cycle a tank or they go buy ammonia. Adding Stability or cycle helps because its beneficial bacteria in a bottle but something needs to be in the tank to feed the good bacteria. Ive always used fish to get my cycle going. White cloud minnows work good or if its a big tank Ill use feeders. Some people prefer to go buy Ammonia from the store and dose that. Whatever method you prefer.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

The ada soil should have enough to cycle your tank. I would not worry about it too much as your tank is heavily planted.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The ADA soil leaching ammonia is being taken up by the plants. Hence your good growth. If you're already getting nitrate, you're not going to measure any nitrite as the cycle is already complete except your ADA is still leaching ammonia. A few more water changes and you should be good to go.


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## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

jbyoung00008 said:


> First thing that stands out to me is you say you are cycling your tank but you haven't said much about that.
> 
> What are you cycling it with? Most people use fish to cycle a tank or they go buy ammonia. Adding Stability or cycle helps because its beneficial bacteria in a bottle but something needs to be in the tank to feed the good bacteria. Ive always used fish to get my cycle going. White cloud minnows work good or if its a big tank Ill use feeders. Some people prefer to go buy Ammonia from the store and dose that. Whatever method you prefer.


i had just relied on the ADA soil. Just the soil alone brought ammonia up to 4ppm which lasted for about 2 weeks before dropping down to 2ppm and eventually to where it is now at 0.25ppm. With a good amount of ammonia from the soil, I didn't feel the need to add any other ammonia source. Also, I haven't put anything else in the tank (ie. Stability or any other cycling product). Perhaps there are a few melting leaves which I try to remove promptly, but other than Prime dechlorinator, I haven't added anything else, chemical-wise. Just trying to be patient and let the cycling do its thing.

My hunch is that it is cycling the way it should and it's not really an ammonia issue. That registered properly and is declining as expected. The peculiarity is really more about nitrites. I am now registering nitrates without having ever seen any nitrites which I found a bit weird. I thought in order for nitrates to appear, there first had to be a nitrite spike after the ammonia spike. But I never registered any nitrites whatsoever - always the same cyan blue color from the tests.

At the end of the day, if ammonia goes down to 0, and nitrates are at acceptable levels, I don't mind that i never experienced a nitrite reading or spike. I just thought it was weird to not see any of it at all and wondering if anyone else ever experienced this or perhaps shed some light on this. Maybe it just is what it is.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You're on the right track. That's the correct way of cycling a planted tank with ADA. This is not a fish-based tank so the methods are different. If you go to plantedtank.net and barrreport.com you'll see many do exactly what you're doing.

Once again, nitrites are transient, and it's preferentially taken up by plants over nitrate. The preference is like this for uptake by plants. ammonia > nitrite > nitrate 
Free ammonia is mostly readily used by plants and then nitrites and then nitrates. That's why plants work for cycling.


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## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

2wheelsx2 said:


> The ADA soil leaching ammonia is being taken up by the plants. Hence your good growth. If you're already getting nitrate, you're not going to measure any nitrite as the cycle is already complete except your ADA is still leaching ammonia. A few more water changes and you should be good to go.


I agree that getting nitrates my nitrogen cycle is likely complete. But fact that there is still ammonia reading, perhaps is that indication that there is not enough bacteria somehow? I guess I'll give it a few more days till the weekend and do a big waterchange and then perhaps try one or two 'sacrificial' fish and see how they fare.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

indefine said:


> i had just relied on the ADA soil. Just the soil alone brought ammonia up to 4ppm which lasted for about 2 weeks before dropping down to 2ppm and eventually to where it is now at 0.25ppm. With a good amount of ammonia from the soil, I didn't feel the need to add any other ammonia source. Also, I haven't put anything else in the tank (ie. Stability or any other cycling product). Perhaps there are a few melting leaves which I try to remove promptly, but other than Prime dechlorinator, I haven't added anything else, chemical-wise. Just trying to be patient and let the cycling do its thing.
> 
> My hunch is that it is cycling the way it should and it's not really an ammonia issue. That registered properly and is declining as expected. The peculiarity is really more about nitrites. I am now registering nitrates without having ever seen any nitrites which I found a bit weird. I thought in order for nitrates to appear, there first had to be a nitrite spike after the ammonia spike. But I never registered any nitrites whatsoever - always the same cyan blue color from the tests.
> 
> At the end of the day, if ammonia goes down to 0, and nitrates are at acceptable levels, I don't mind that i never experienced a nitrite reading or spike. I just thought it was weird to not see any of it at all and wondering if anyone else ever experienced this or perhaps shed some light on this. Maybe it just is what it is.


Ive never used ADA. lesson learned 

I still prefer to have fish in there. I can never wait 6 weeks before getting fish. Great job!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

indefine said:


> I agree that getting nitrates my nitrogen cycle is likely complete. But fact that there is still ammonia reading, perhaps is that indication that there is not enough bacteria somehow? I guess I'll give it a few more days till the weekend and do a big waterchange and then perhaps try one or two 'sacrificial' fish and see how they fare.


It depends a bit on how the balance is. For instance, you can increase the ammonia uptake by increasing CO2 to a degree, but that would be bad for any fish. I think you can add some fish as long as you're willing to do more wc's in the beginning. Are you getting green dust algae or diatoms? If you are, that's a good sign that you are very close to getting the balance.


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## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

2wheelsx2 said:


> It depends a bit on how the balance is. For instance, you can increase the ammonia uptake by increasing CO2 to a degree, but that would be bad for any fish. I think you can add some fish as long as you're willing to do more wc's in the beginning. Are you getting green dust algae or diatoms? If you are, that's a good sign that you are very close to getting the balance.


About week and half ago, I got an outbreak of green dust algae all over my glass. It came in over the course of a couple of days. I've since cleaned that off and have done 2 - 40% wc's. No diatoms though. Since the 2 waterchanges, there is a bit of green dust algae coming back, but at a much slower rate.

In terms of algae, aside from diatoms, I think I've experienced everything under the sun - beard algae, thread algae, green slime stuff, some spot algae on leaves...but I think these occur more in some 'dead' areas of my tank which I understand tweaking water flow should help.

So far I've just been taking things in stride and accepting that algae and such will happen and deal with it as it comes. But it's promising to hear that some of this is actually a good sign of things getting to a good state.

Thanks for all the helpful insights!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

The green dust and diatom algae will happen as your cycle is getting properly established. During that time, you have to do more wc's to clear it. I was doing daily wc's in my ADA cube during that time. It's specific to CO2/ADA/high light. I never got those problems when I was using lower light and inert substrates. You're doing all the right things and just have to keep on top of it. You should be able to add a light fish load any time soon.


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## indefine (Aug 10, 2013)

2wheelsx2 said:


> The green dust and diatom algae will happen as your cycle is getting properly established. During that time, you have to do more wc's to clear it. I was doing daily wc's in my ADA cube during that time. It's specific to CO2/ADA/high light. I never got those problems when I was using lower light and inert substrates. You're doing all the right things and just have to keep on top of it. You should be able to add a light fish load any time soon.


This is interesting with regards to high light/ADA/CO2. What you say is very true, as I also have a smaller 10gallon shrimp tank that is cycling with identical time frame as my big tank, same ADA soil, but it is low light, no CO2, and just a simple sponge filter. So I am able to observe first hand the differences you describe about the two types of setups - high light CO2 versus low light no CO2.

It's about 50% planted with slower growers and mosses. The ammonia reading in this tank is about 0.5ppm right now, so a bit slower to rid the ammonia but also getting nitrate readings. This only has spot algae and thread algae, but as you mentioned about the different setups, the glass, aside from having biofilm, is clean as a whistle with no signs of GDA or diatoms. So, exactly like you are describing, so this is encouraging.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes, I believe the changes are so rapid with the ADA providing the ammonia and the CO2 and high light that you always see this cycle. In a lower light, balanced, low nutrient tank, I don't believe you will go through all these phases.

Frank Waseter on plantedtank.net had a huge novel of a thread on it here: Frank's Planted Tank How-To Mini Novel - The Mini S Returns! New Layout

Interesting and very informative read if you have the time. I believe he did a mini-series on Tropical Fish Hobbyist also.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thank you Gary for your valuable information and reply in this thread, learned a lot.
By the way, if the bio filter is well established even if ammonia is still released from the soil the ammonia reading should be zero because they will either be taken by the plants or converted by the nitrifying bacteria, is that correct?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Since ammonia conversion is not instantaneous, it depends a bit on the plant uptake rate and when the reading is taken. For instance, after the lights and CO2 have been on a while, the uptake rate is very high in a high light tank and you'll likely not measure any. But if you took a reading in the dark or right after lights on you may get some ammonia. And it also depends on the accuracy of the kit. After all, a lot of the kits read are super precise, so you might read a bit of ammonia. But as long as the pH is lower than 7 a little ammonia is tolerable. And using ADA, the pH will be guaranteed to be lower than 7.


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