# What's your personal philosophy on discus-keeping ?



## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Just for a change of pace, I thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

Here's a listing of my personal preferences:

I've kept discus for many years, but.....

- I've only kept discus a couple of times in a bare-bottom tank. I dislike the sterile-looking environment of BB, and have always preferred raising/keeping them in a planted environment, as I feel they look that much better in a planted/display tank setting.

I also like the challenge of maintaining a healthy planted aquascape in the higher discus temps, and the TLC and attention it takes to successfully grow out discus under those conditions. The effort it takes to maintain the clean, high quality water conditions in this type of set-up is very satisfying to me.

- I have bred discus, but I can't seem to be bothered going that extra mile trying to grow out fry successfully. Having said that, I admire those who do breed discus, and successfully raise healthy, good-looking fry for resale.

- I don't care for huge, dinner plate sized discus, because I have an addiction to getting small juvies of different varieties/ colorations, growing them out to around 6", and selling them off so that I can then get other juvie strains that I haven't kept before.

- Ive never kept wild discus, but I definitely want to do so, some day, and I'm sure I will. Again, I admire discus-keepers who keep wilds, and I love their colorations & types, not to mention the extra little challenges it takes to keep them successfully.

Anybody else have any thoughts/comments on this topic ?


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## Canadian_Aqua_Farm (Apr 21, 2010)

For me the main focus has always been on the fish. I don't mind a bare bottom tank. The ease with which I can wipe down the surfaces inside the aquarium and do a massive water change is a trade off I'll gladly make for the less appealing look of a BB tank. I have huge repect for those that can keep up with the higher maintenance that goes along with having substrate in a discus tank. 

For my own personal aquariums I would always choose to go with a breeding tank over a show tank. It never gets old watching the parents raising their babies. One of the most satisfying parts of the hobby for me is when fry I have raised are grown up and start breeding. Taking them full circle like that is a great feeling. 

I have kept and bred both domestics and wilds. Both have a special place in my heart but if I could only choose one it would be domestics because of the huge array of colours and patterns available as well as the fact that I generally find them faster growing and slightly hardier than wilds. Though breeding wild heckels is a challenge that I would love to take on one day.


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## catgoldfish (Apr 21, 2010)

I also find bare bottom easier. Don't like the look but, the fish make up for that. I have wilds and domestics, both are great. Never had any of mine pair up let alone breed. I also like getting the smaller juvies and watching them grow to large adult sizes. It's just so peaceful and relaxing coming home from a long day of work, sitting down watching your fish. Way better than watching TV.


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## MELLO (Apr 21, 2010)

For me it depends on what program you are interested in. Speaking from a guy who get really bored easily. I kept discus in show tank and bare bottom tanks. I love the look of planted discus tanks together with other community fish with them. But now I'm into breeding and growing out fry/juvies I prefer bare bottom. The ease of cleaning like what Rick just said makes it easier. It dosen't seem pleasing with others but bare bottom is the way to go when your breeding and grow outs. Maybe one day I'll setup another low tech planted tank. 
Here's a pic of my low tech planted tank 4 or 5 years ago.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I have been giving it a lot of thought about starting a discus tank. But after reading about the water change and the need to go bare bottom on another discus forum I am not sure anymore. I personally would love to be able to have a planted tank with a fish as beautiful as discus, bare bottom is just not for me.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm not sure I would keep any fish if the tank had to be barebottom. If I had a fishroom and was growing out my own fish maybe. But not in my living room. All my tanks are planted to some degree. I'd like to try my hand at raising some fry some time, so at that point, I'd probably go BB. I like the wild colours you can get out of domestics, but I really really have a thing for Heckels. But if I did a second tank I'd do a domestic. So for me:

1. No BB tanks.
2. Mainly wilds.
3. I like bigger groups, so unless it's a QT or growout, I'd probably never go less than 75 gallons for a discus tank.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

I have always kept discus in the past in planted low light show tanks. My last one was a 78" long 165g Tru-vu plexi with large pieces of wood and lots of plants. Loved it but my wife made me shut down that tank so we could have a couch in the livingroom (Yeah, I know, a COUCH!!!)


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I was very close to buying a 70 gallon with a nice stand and canopy which I was thinking of using to try my hands on discus. I was thinking of just using sand bottom, some wood and some rocks...then I read about bare bottom and 50% water change frenquently, 6-8 fish in a school, from the same breeder at the same time at the same age.... I did not and still do not think I will have that kind of time and enery so i decided to forget about it. 
Saw a very beautiful discus planted tank on youtube before. It was really nice. The plants were beautiful and the color of the discus really pop against the background. Discus planted tank 180L (1080p) - YouTube
But some people was commenting on the tank being over crowded. Personally i think the tank is really nice.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

Pics of my tank a few years ago when it was fully planted


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> I was very close to buying a 70 gallon with a nice stand and canopy which I was thinking of using to try my hands on discus. I was thinking of just using sand bottom, some wood and some rocks...then I read about bare bottom and 50% water change frenquently, 6-8 fish in a school, from the same breeder at the same time at the same age.... I did not and still do not think I will have that kind of time and enery so i decided to forget about it.
> Saw a very beautiful discus planted tank on youtube before. It was really nice. The plants were beautiful and the color of the discus really pop against the background. Discus planted tank 180L (1080p) - YouTube
> But some people was commenting on the tank being over crowded. Personally i think the tank is really nice.


I personally don't think that that tank is overcrowded at all


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## MELLO (Apr 21, 2010)

josephl said:


> I personally don't think that that tank is overcrowded at all


As long as you do your regular waterchange I think you can get away with overcrowding. I have a 90 gallon before with 15 adult and 4 juvies not including the clown loaches, rams and tetras etc.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Here's some recent pics of my planted discus tank, for those of you who may not have seen it before:

lolliblues2 pictures by discuspaul - Photobucket


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

For me, it's all about the fish. I've done both, planted discus tanks with adults and near adults and bb with both juvies and adults. When you have multiple tanks, time management and proper maintenance is a big issue.

Growing out juvies is a lot of fun, so I don't mind lots of water changes and bb tanks to give them every opportunity to grow big and as healthy as possible without increasing your time for maintenance. If I only had to maintain 1 tank meant as a display tank, my preference would be wild discus with sandy substrate & driftwood to replicate their natural habitat.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

josephl said:


> I personally don't think that that tank is overcrowded at all


Totally agreed. Some even commented that he had too many plants LOL.

Off topic a bit but this is something I really want to ask: why do people always put a discus on their hands when they take pictures? Will that take the slim coats off the body?

Thank you.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Totally agreed. Some even commented that he had too many plants LOL.
> 
> Off topic a bit but this is something I really want to ask: why do people always put a discus on their hands when they take pictures? Will that take the slim coats off the body?
> 
> Thank you.


Much easier to take good pics while they're not moving at all, and to show their true coloration without any distortion.
May remove a little of their slime coating, but they get it back quickly with no harm done.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You can handle any fish with your hands as long as a) you're gentle, b) your hands are wet and free from any chemicals. 

If your hands are dry they'll pull off a lot of slime coat. It's probably more hazardous to you to handle discus with their spines than vice versa.


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## MELLO (Apr 21, 2010)

Fish rookie said:


> Totally agreed. Some even commented that he had too many plants LOL.
> 
> Off topic a bit but this is something I really want to ask: why do people always put a discus on their hands when they take pictures? Will that take the slim coats off the body?
> 
> Thank you.


They put it on their hands to give us an idea on what the shape/size of the fish. You will also see them in bucket shots where all the fish are sideways. I do the same thing when I want to measure my discus growth. I grab em off the tank and place it in my hand then get a ruler.


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## guppygeorge (Sep 6, 2010)

aw


catgoldfish said:


> I also like getting the smaller juvies and watching them grow to large adult sizes.


Gotta agree with you  It is fun watching adult discus spawn, but I agree that it really rewarding watching fry and juvies grow. It's a challenge to keep the water parameters in line and establish a feeding program that will maximize your young discus's growth and health  I have really enjoyed being part of Rick's "grow-out " contest. It has been nice to communicate with other "contestants" and watch the progress of their fish and compare them to the progress of my own fish  If Rick runs another contest next year, you should apply to enter. I'm certain you will find it as enjoyable experience as those of who were fortunate enopugh to have been involved this year in Rick's inaugural contest :bigsmile:

BTW.thanks for starting a great thread "Discuspaul"


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## dino (Aug 29, 2011)

some of my first fish are discus i didnt know a thing about fishkeeping but they stayed alive prooving that adult discus are more hardy than people think. Also they where and still are in a tank with substrate and they are doing great


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## dino (Aug 29, 2011)

*250 gallon with 15 adults*

crappy pic but ill try to get a better one


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

dino said:


> some of my first fish are discus i didnt know a thing about fishkeeping but they stayed alive prooving that adult discus are more hardy than people think. Also they where and still are in a tank with substrate and they are doing great


They are tough fish, when I first started discus keeping, after years of other aquarium fish, I put 5 juvie discus in a planted 33 gallon with a frontosa. They did just fine and grew to be pretty nice adults. All I did was regular daily water changes, never treated the water with anything other than dechlorinator.

That's why my answer to people when they ask me whether they should start discus is three questions (1) are you willing to do regular water changes? Dosen't have to be complicated, even one bucket out a day and a new bucket in is better than nothing and this will take at most, with a basic siphon 10 min? and (2) are you willing to spend $ on good food, good quality pellets, frozen mysis shrimp and possibly frozen black worms or live black worms. If you are too cheap so you will only buy angel brand blood worms, then stay away, and finally (3) are you willing to invest in good stock? Good quality small discus still aren't too expensive, $35 for a blue diamond?

If you answer yes to the above 3 questions and stick to a minimum 10 gallons per ADULT discus, then go ahead, you can keep discus successfully.

Everything else is overthinking....


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

dino said:


> crappy pic but ill try to get a better one


I love the way the wood is set up


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

josephl said:


> They are tough fish, when I first started discus keeping, after years of other aquarium fish, I put 5 juvie discus in a planted 33 gallon with a frontosa. They did just fine and grew to be pretty nice adults. All I did was regular daily water changes, never treated the water with anything other than dechlorinator.
> 
> That's why my answer to people when they ask me whether they should start discus is three questions (1) are you willing to do regular water changes? Dosen't have to be complicated, even one bucket out a day and a new bucket in is better than nothing and this will take at most, with a basic siphon 10 min? and (2) are you willing to spend $ on good food, good quality pellets, frozen mysis shrimp and possibly frozen black worms or live black worms. If you are too cheap so you will only buy angel brand blood worms, then stay away, and finally (3) are you willing to invest in good stock? Good quality small discus still aren't too expensive, $35 for a blue diamond?
> 
> ...


That's the best summary I've ever read Joe.  Much simpler than do this do that. Ever since I took your advice and started doing that, it's been a lot easier for me.


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

josephl said:


> They are tough fish, when I first started discus keeping, after years of other aquarium fish, I put 5 juvie discus in a planted 33 gallon with a frontosa. They did just fine and grew to be pretty nice adults. All I did was regular daily water changes, never treated the water with anything other than dechlorinator.
> 
> That's why my answer to people when they ask me whether they should start discus is three questions (1) are you willing to do regular water changes? Dosen't have to be complicated, even one bucket out a day and a new bucket in is better than nothing and this will take at most, with a basic siphon 10 min? and (2) are you willing to spend $ on good food, good quality pellets, frozen mysis shrimp and possibly frozen black worms or live black worms. If you are too cheap so you will only buy angel brand blood worms, then stay away, and finally (3) are you willing to invest in good stock? Good quality small discus still aren't too expensive, $35 for a blue diamond?
> 
> ...


You don't adjust kh or gh? do you keep track of your ph?

I love the simplicity of this approach but I have been led to believe that stability of ph by having enough kh and the mineralization of our extraordinarily soft water, for osmoregulation was important. Perhaps the answer lies in the natural habitat of the discus? Low KH and Gh? This apply to the wilds but would it not be fair to guess that the domestics are more likely raised in an environment with Kh and Gh values above ours here in the lowermainland out of the tap which must be around zero for both if my tap is any indication.
Looking to start a discus tank this week. quite excited, and a little trepidatious.

Rick


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

rickwaines said:


> You don't adjust kh or gh? do you keep track of your ph?


Joe does 2 water changes a day. Even at 1 water change per day, you would just be flushing your buffers down the drain. Our water is low in hardness, it is not devoid of hardness. So adding buffers if you are changing water 1x a week makes sense. If you're doing it every day, you're fighting an uphil battle.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Although accoridng to the book, Discus are supposed to live in soft acidic water with a high temperature in LFS they are not always kept that way. On a recent conversation with a manager in a LFS he told me his discus were kept with 7.5 PH and 4-5 GH/KH, and his temperature is not above 80 either. His reasoning was that those fish were farm bred so the parameters for a wild caught discus do not apply. About temperature they told me in wild discus temperature is not alwasy so high since when the water is low the temperature is higher but when it is flooded the temperature goes down so it is fine to use a lower temperature.
Personally i would prefer to buy my fish from a place where Ph is not set so hard becaue it means I need to spend a lot fo time to acclimatize the fish and even then the fish might not do too well since my tank ph is acidic.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

rickwaines said:


> You don't adjust kh or gh? do you keep track of your ph?
> 
> I love the simplicity of this approach but I have been led to believe that stability of ph by having enough kh and the mineralization of our extraordinarily soft water, for osmoregulation was important. Perhaps the answer lies in the natural habitat of the discus? Low KH and Gh? This apply to the wilds but would it not be fair to guess that the domestics are more likely raised in an environment with Kh and Gh values above ours here in the lowermainland out of the tap which must be around zero for both if my tap is any indication.
> Looking to start a discus tank this week. quite excited, and a little trepidatious.
> ...


I find that this isn't really important for domestic discus. As Gary has stated, I do 2 x 50% water changes on my tank daily(thank you python) so buffering is just a huge waste of $. I have found that the domestic discus don't really care. In fact, I found that when I did try to adjust the parameters, the discus were always somewhat distressed during/just after a water change, likely due to the swings as a result of my adding additives. That said, I have to be careful to add fish that are just as tough as domestic discus, if you see my other posts, fish like the humphead glass fish, hypans and archer fish don't seem to care. More common fish such as rams, gouramis, swordtails don't survive very long.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Very interesting discussions, folks, please keep it up - I for one like it.


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

josephl said:


> I find that this isn't really important for domestic discus. As Gary has stated, I do 2 x 50% water changes on my tank daily(thank you python) so buffering is just a huge waste of $. I have found that the domestic discus don't really care. In fact, I found that when I did try to adjust the parameters, the discus were always somewhat distressed during/just after a water change, likely due to the swings as a result of my adding additives. That said, I have to be careful to add fish that are just as tough as domestic discus, if you see my other posts, fish like the humphead glass fish, hypans and archer fish don't seem to care. More common fish such as rams, gouramis, swordtails don't survive very long.


So perhaps the fact that you are changing 50% twice a day and therefore replenishing the gh constantly, allows what minerals there are in our water to be metabolized by the Discus eliminating your need for the management of GH? I wonder what the Gh proponents/adherents/chemistry folks would have to say on this subject?


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

rickwaines said:


> So perhaps the fact that you are changing 50% twice a day and therefore replenishing the gh constantly, allows what minerals there are in our water to be metabolized by the Discus eliminating your need for the management of GH? I wonder what the Gh proponents/adherents/chemistry folks would have to say on this subject?


To be clear, I'm not advocating that what I do is right, all I am saying is that it is working for my domestic discus, has for years and so why change it. Another factor to consider is that measuring and detail is not a strength of mine in any way shape or form so for me at least, adjusting water paremeters in haphazard fashion would likely be more dangerous to the discus than just topping up with tap water and prime. I would say that for most other tropical aquarium fish, gh/kh is important as has been frequently pointed out by Grant. This probabably explains why I can grow out discus, get them to spawn but cannot keep live bearers or most apistos alive


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Good post, Joe.
A statement of success on the one hand, along with an admission of failure on the other. 
I've had a few of those too !


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

rickwaines said:


> So perhaps the fact that you are changing 50% twice a day and therefore replenishing the gh constantly, allows what minerals there are in our water to be metabolized by the Discus eliminating your need for the management of GH? I wonder what the Gh proponents/adherents/chemistry folks would have to say on this subject?


It's not exactly metabolism. Grant referred to this a number of times. It's osmotic pressure. It's the reverse of RO (Reverse Osmosis). In RO, you're driving the ions from a low ionic concentration fluid to one of higher concentration, that's why it's reverse. In normal situations, ions always travel (by the law of entropy) from high ion concentration to low. So if the water is extremely soft, then the water will "rob" the fish of the needed minerals (Mg, Ca, etc.) that make up GH. Since discus live in soft, blackwater environments, they don't need the higher GH for osmotic regulation, unlike guppies, mollies, and other livebearers which can live in up to brackish conditions, which have very high ion concentrations or GH.

In simple terms if the fish were used to being in hard water and you put it in constantly soft water it would be like you being dehydrated all the time and having to use drinks like Gatorade with a lot of electrolytes to replace those minerals. Except the fish can't do it. And in Joe's case, since he has constantly soft water, adding a lot of buffers at once would give the fish a bit of an osmotic shock. I do every other day water changes and add a small amount of buffers in (1/2 tsp of Equilibrium and 1/4 tsp of Epsom salts to the 60 or so gallons I put in the tank, as I'm filling it. This keeps the water at around a TDS of 100 ppm or so from our water which has a TDS of 10 ppm or so.


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

2wheelsx2 said:


> It's not exactly metabolism. Grant referred to this a number of times. It's osmotic pressure. It's the revers of RO (Reverse Osmosis). In RO, you're driving the ions from a low ionic concentration fluid to one of higher concentration, that's why it's reverse. In normal situations, ions always travel (by the law of entropy) from high ion concentration to low. So if the water is extremely soft, then the water will "rob" the fish of the needed minerals (Mg, Ca, etc.) that make up GH. Since discus live in soft, blackwater environments, they don't need the higher GH for osmotic regulation, unlike guppies, mollies, and other livebearers which can live in up to brackish conditions, which have very high ion concentrations or GH.
> 
> In simple terms if the fish were used to being in hard water and you put it in constantly soft water it would be like you being dehydrated all the time and having to use drinks like Gatorade with a lot of electrolytes to replace those minerals. Except the fish can't do it. And in Joe's case, since he has constantly soft water, adding a lot of buffers at once would give the fish a bit of an osmotic shock. I do every other day water changes and add a small amount of buffers in (1/2 tsp of Equilibrium and 1/4 tsp of Epsom salts to the 60 or so gallons I put in the tank, as I'm filling it. This keeps the water at around a TDS of 100 ppm or so from our water which has a TDS of 10 ppm or so.


Beautiful simple explanation of the Gh thang. Thank you!


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## virtualquan (Mar 16, 2012)

This thread is very interesting, especially to newbie like me. 

I've always been fascinated by this so called king of the aquarium but never had the will to get into keeping it until four months ago. I'm currently having a 120 gallon white substrate planted tank running with only 3 torpedo barbs and 2 bristle nose in it. This tank is reserved for the nine young discuses that I'm trying to raise in a bare bottom tank. So far so good. They are all healthy and growing fast. They are around 3"-3.5" right now.


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## MELLO (Apr 21, 2010)

A lot of hobbyist are scared of trying discus from what they heard or read. Reality is discus are tough fish. It is really up to you how you want to keep them. They can leave in once a week waterchange or everyday 90% waterchange. But don't be surprise when you compare your discus to someone that maintains there water maintenance regualarly. I personally haven't check my water parematers in 5 years. People come and ask what's my PH. I would say I don't know. Gh, Kh, etc. I don't even know how to check those and never did ever. I use straight tap water and use PRIME or Seachem Safe for my dechlorinator. That's IT! One thing I learned is the KISS method which what I apply to my discus. Their is no secrets on how to keep discus successfully. I always say to anyone I talk to just keep your water clean and you avoid all the problems. Food is secondary on my list. I've breed discus and grow them out by just using simple easy steps. My Philosophy is just keep it simple whether you like to do a show tank or bare bottom tank. Don't do to much or you will just complicate things and end up worst.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Very good post Mello.
That's one of my "6 Cardinal Rules" for keeping discus successfully too - KEEP IT SIMPLE !


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## MELLO (Apr 21, 2010)

discuspaul said:


> Very good post Mello.
> That's one of my "6 Cardinal Rules" for keeping discus successfully too - KEEP IT SIMPLE !


Exactly Paul! We want more hobbyist to know that discus are not hard if you just KEEP IT SIMPLE.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

For those of you who may have missed my thread several weeks ago on - " DISCUS - 6 Cardinal Rules for Newbies to Follow", and would be interested in having a quick read through it, here it is:


There's been a lot of talk on this forum lately about raising and keeping Discus, and I thought it may be timely and appropriate to post this thread.

First I'd just like to mention once again that discus are hardier than many people think, and are not difficult to keep, so long as one is prepared to accept and adhere to a few key practices that will provide the best chances of success with discus.

There is nothing new here to experienced discus-keepers in the listing of the points that follow, and even to many newcomers to discus who have at one time or another, read these simple but effective recommendations, and recognize their validity.

The problem I found however, judging by the large number of posts by discus newbies on several forums that reflect frustration, disappointment and misfortunes, is that it seems far too many novices to discus, for whatever reasons, do not pay serious attention to what they're being advised to do, or not do.

Perhaps this is because they think they may know better than the discus 'gurus'. Either that, or they don't have the time, inclination, or financial resources to do what is being suggested, and follow a different path.

Some may feel they just want to try a different approach, deviate 
somewhat, try something new they feel will work for them - whatever - there are many reasons why some newbies will proceed in another direction, only to be met with failure.

Which leads me to post what might be considered to be trite, old hat, redundant, or even agonizingly repetitive commentary, but following this undernoted advice should prove to be a near guarantee that one will achieve success with discus.

This listing is recorded more or less in order of importance:

1) - D - Do your homework well before delving into discus. Read and research all you can beforehand. Googling will certainly help, as well as spending a good deal of time reading the posts and threads on the simplydiscus.com forum, particularly the stickies in their 'Discus Basics'
section, which will provide you with much of the material you need to digest. And/or review this section of BIDKA.

2) - I - Investigate and learn of the best sources to get your discus stock. Find those breeders &/or importers that are long time, well-experienced, responsible, reputable, and known to supply high quality, healthy, and well-shaped discus. Buy your discus from one of these sources in order to insure that you get off on the best footing possible.
This is the single, most important factor in succeeding with discus.

3) - S - Set up and plan to follow a strict regular routine of fresh water changes, tank wipe-downs and cleansing, vacuuming of wastes, and regular filter and media cleaning, changes, replacements, and maintenance. Be fully prepared for the kind of commitment it takes to produce and maintain the highest water quality and conditions that you can. Maintain your tank temperature at no less than 82F (28C)

4) - C - Carefully consider the type of tank set up you start with. Make sure the tank size is ample enough to start with 5 or 6 discus. Don't be tempted to begin with a tank of less than 55 or 60 gallons (approx. 200-225L) , and don't try to justify going smaller by just getting 1, 2, 3, or 4 discus for cost or other reasons.
Wait till you have sufficient resources to get a proper-sized tank, and the suitable size and number of fish to insure continuing good health and harmonious discus sociability.
Do not start with small, undersized, very juvenile fish which have not yet developed a more mature immune system, are more demanding to raise properly, and much more prone to health problems and other issues. Get fish of at least 3.0" (7.5-8.0 cm) in size, preferably larger.

5) - U - Undertake to start off with a bare bottom tank, unless you're getting fully adult fish and have previous good experience with maintaining a planted tank. If you must have some decor, limit yourself to a very thin sand substrate layer, and perhaps a piece of driftwood with just a couple of small plants attached, or one or two potted plants.
Once you gain several months' of experience getting to know your discus' traits & behavior, and your discus get larger, then you may proceed to an aquascaped environment. Feed a varied diet, several times a day, and learn which foods will achieve a nutritious diet, by researching.

6) - S - Simplify. Keep things as simple as you can to start. Don't complicate your start with discus, at least at first, by placing them in a heavily planted environment, using CO2 and a strict fertilization regime. Make sure your tank is fully cycled before adding the fish, and don't be tempted to alter or change the pH of your water, or modify your water conditions and params by using chemicals of any kind. No need to use RO water or adopt any other procedures that would tend to complicate what should be a simple start to your discus launch.

Follow these 'rules', and there's little doubt you will succeed with discus !

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Last edited by discuspaul; 28-May-2012 at 04:40 PM..


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Have any of you kept Discus with Angels? Is it true they can get sick from the Angles?


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

I have with no problems, but not necessarily something I would recommend.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

I have on a regular basis and still do. IMO, it's no different than any other tropical fish, especially those bred in volume from Asia, who knows what they can introduce to your tank and to your expensive discus. 

I've been lucky in that I have never introduced disease into my discus tank from introducing non discus fish but I can't see why it couldn't happen. 

That said, I have had 3 big disease outbreaks over the years from introducing new discus into my discus tanks and I wouldn't with that on anyone. 

The first time was even with quarantine, when the new fish were perfectly healthy in quarantine but when I introduced them into my main tank, I found that they carried something that infected all of my existing fish. After that, I just choose not to quarantine anymore as the only way quarantine would truly work would be to introduce one of my existing fish into the quarantine tank to see if it gets sick. I like all my fish and would never know which one to use as a guinea pig. I choose instead to try my best to buy from reputable breeders and more often than not, this has worked. 

The biggest disease I have had since then was buying very expensive fish from Dale Jordan(who is no longer in business) that almost wiped out my tanks again. 

The last was about 4 months ago when I had some form of 'super ich' that needed Quick cure to kill off. I waited too long to use Quick cure while using other organic treatments and the fish got really infected. Ironically, what I discovered was that Albino fish are really tough. I lost about 4 blue cobalts and/or blue diamonds but all of the albino fish came through with flying colors!!


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## MELLO (Apr 21, 2010)

Still not over with DJ eh! Joe?


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

MELLO said:


> Still not over with DJ eh! Joe?


Life time memories when people intentionally rip me off  but that's not the purpose of this thread 

Anyone who is thinking of getting into discus these days, I would recommend checking out Rick's new shipment. The small blue diamonds and cobalts that he has are absolutely amazing!!


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I am very interested in Discus. I was discouraged when I read all those comment about how hard it is but now I think I may give it a try once I have a bigger tank and the time. Thank you for all the info.
Is a 70 gallon the smallest recommended? Is it better to have a tall than a long tank?
Thanks guys.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

The smallest recommended tank for keeping a group of say, 5 discus, is a 50 gallon, but a 70 gallon is a much better-sized tank to start with. It looks and is better to accommodate larger discus as they mature, and is more conducive than a smaller tank for maintaining stable water parameters and condtions. 
Of course, smaller tanks than 50 gals can be used for mated pair breeding purposes, or for growing out fry and smaller juveniles. But for someone starting out with discus, it's suggested you get nothing smaller than 3" fish, 6 or more of them, and the 70 gal is ideal for that purpose. 
Dimensions of the tank are not particularly important, but imo and ime, somewhat more height, rather than length, is more desirable from an aesthetic-looking standpoint, and a standard 70 gal can certainly achieve that, while also giving you enough width from front to back.


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

DiscusPaul,

I don't know if you discus guru's have mentioned 'tank mates' yet that are compatible with Discus, but that's one question asked frequently with just about everyone.Answer's will vary i assume, each hobbyist has their own experiences.Another would be the right 'plants' as well, another life form required to be happy as well.Those going the planted route will be curious to know what works.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I think tankmates and plants etc. are choices that should be made once there's been some experience. I know that I would have a much easier time just concentrating on discus in the beginning. If I had to do over again I would have gone with wood, sand and discus and lots of water changes, and then once I got the hang of it, added plants and other fish. It certainly would have made my life a lot easier those days.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Certainly have to agree with Gary on this one -
but having said that - (and this in response to Luke's comments) - once you as a beginner have a few months under your belt getting familiar with discus' needs, traits & behavior, and are ready for tank-mates and a planted environment, I'm sure it would be of interest to many to have a backgrounding on which species of fish are particularly compatible with discus, and can handle the higher discus temps....
as well as knowing what species of plants are also appropriate & can do well at the higher temps.
I for one will be happy to develop a suitable thread on this topic - Please allow me to give it some thought first.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

Luke78 said:


> DiscusPaul,
> 
> I don't know if you discus guru's have mentioned 'tank mates' yet that are compatible with Discus, but that's one question asked frequently with just about everyone.Answer's will vary i assume, each hobbyist has their own experiences.Another would be the right 'plants' as well, another life form required to be happy as well.Those going the planted route will be curious to know what works.


Tank mates for discus - I'm not going to touch that one, you guys know I mix anything and everything, I had goldfish with my discus for awhile

Plants - I know people keep mentioning it but I have never had a problem with any kind of plant melting because of heat in my tanks, even madagascar lace plants seem to do fine


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

josephl said:


> Tank mates for discus - I'm not going to touch that one, you guys know I mix anything and everything, I had goldfish with my discus for awhile
> 
> Plants - I know people keep mentioning it but I have never had a problem with any kind of plant melting because of heat in my tanks, even madagascar lace plants seem to do fine


I'm sure with a lot of fish it wouldn't be a problem, but the way I look at it is, why have $3 fish complicate things when you're starting with $50 - $75 fish. The weakest link in the *****, that kind of mentality I guess.

I'm experiencing melting in my tank right now, of my Alternathera reineckii. But it's from the heat. It's from the excessive uptake of the tank bottoming the nitrates and phosphates. I think if you just throw in some java fern and Anubias and crypts it'll be fine, but then you may end up with BBA and other algae, and for me I'd rather have no plants, low lighting than ugly plants. That's what I've turned to in 2 of my pleco tanks as it's to much work to find the balance, without choking my fish out with CO2, to prevent algae outbreak when higher lighting levels are used. And the low light tanks are doing great and are almost no work. My 20 gallon is lit with 2 watts of LED while the 46 bow is lit with 30 watts of T8 on 6 hours a day and only growing Anubias and Java Fern, so nothing in the substrate at all.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

*DISCUS......and a planted community tank....?? !!!*

I'm posting this thread in response to a forum member's (Luke 78) suggestion that it would be of significant interest and help to many newcomers to discus-keeping to gain some understanding of the species of fish that are well compatible with discus, and generally suited to the higher discus temps, as well as to have a grounding on suggested types of plants that would do well in a discus tank environment.

Here's my take on this topic:

- Firstly, I feel it's important to suggest, if not strongly recommend, that newbies to discus not consider jumping right into discus-keeping in a planted community-type set-up from the get-go. I believe the right approach for those starting off with discus is to do so in a bare-bottom tank, or at most, in a tank with nothing more than a thin layer of sand, and perhaps a piece of driftwood &/or a potted plant or two.
It's best first to get comfortable keeping discus, learning their needs, traits & behaviors over a period of a few months before proceeding to a planted community tank set-up, even if one is already well-experienced in maintaining a planted tank.

- Secondly, and just as important, is to point out that there are many different combinations, possibilities, opinions and experiences regarding the types of fish species that generally get along well with discus, and the range of plants that one may suggest as being suited to be healthily grown and maintained in the higher temps needed for discus.

So it follows of course that there will be many different views ,thoughts, and opinions on this, depending on experience levels, and my commentary below is based primarily on my own experiences over many years, and those of other experienced discus-keepers that I am familiar with. The entire subject can therefore be a venue for open and healthy discussion on many fronts. Please keep this in mind.

OK - Let's get started with a listing of suitable discus tank-mates, "dither fish" as they're called, this in no particular order:

I'd like to start by pointing out that discus are a relatively peaceful (as regards their behavior toward other fish species, not necessarily amongst themselves), slow-moving and graceful breed of fish, which are easily startled, and potentially harmfully stressed by very active, rapidly-moving fish, as well as by some species of aggressive ( usually larger) fish which may out-compete them for food. These types of fish are therefore to be avoided. I'll provide some examples of these types of fish below.

Many other fish, while perhaps quite compatible with discus, cannot long deal with the higher discus temps, and soon perish, or have an abnormally shorter life span than normal. Mature neon tetras are an example of this. I say mature, because if they were small young neons, they'd probably become discus' 'lunch' long before they were done in by the higher temp.
One further small note - as a beneficial concession to both dither fish and plants, I'd suggest keeping the tank at no higher than 82-83 F, which would be just fine for discus.

- Good tank-mates:

Tetras: Many strains are just fine, including Cardinals, Rummy-Noses, Lemons, Black neons, Glow-lights, Head & tail lights, Bleeding hearts, Bloodfins, Pristellas, and others. Exception being Serpaes, which could be nippers.

Bottom-dwellers: Almost all strains of Corydoras, with the possible exception of Pandas, which I have found to be more delicate and not thrive in a discus tank.

Others: German Blue or Bolivian Rams, several strains of Rasboras, including Harlequin, Copper & others. Hatchet Fish. Some Gouramis, such as Dwarf or Pearl, but not larger Gouramis, which tend to be aggressive and may out-compete discus for food. Bristle-Nose Plecos, but not many other Plecos which can grow quite large and may take a liking to discus' slime coats as part of their diet.

I've never kept these with discus, but other experienced discus-keepers tell me they have successfully kept the following fish with discus: Killifish, Kribensis, a Betta, livebearers such as Guppies, Platies, and Swordtails. Kuhli loaches, Rays, and some more peaceful Barbs such as Rosy, Cherry, Odessa. Others have kept Angels with Discus, but this is something to be careful with, depending on the size of the Angels vs. the size of the Discus, and whether or not the Angels are wild-caught rather than domestic-raised. Some Angels, particularly wild-caught, may harbor harmful pathogens they are resistant to, but the discus are not.

Many discus-keepers have Otocinclus or Siamese Algae Eaters with discus, and I have done so too, but I found that on occasion, when these species got older and lazier and began ignoring algae, some took a liking to discus' slime coats, as some Plecos may do.

- Not good tank-mates:

Tank-mates to avoid include, many, if not most, other Cichlids (besides Rams, and perhaps Angels), because they are either extremely messy and disruptive, or get too large, or are too aggressive, among other factors.

Others to avoid are the very active, rapidly-moving fish (as mentioned earlier). Examples of some of these species are: Clown Loaches, Rainbows, Red-Tailed Sharks, Zebras/Danios. Many Barbs are also fast-movers, aggessive, or nippers, or have all of these traits.

A chuckle here: I had one long-time, experienced discus-keeper tell me he has kept many species of fish with discus over the years without a hint of problems, including for example, mature Tiger Barbs, Jack Dempseys, and Firemouths. This same person told me he has kept almost all varieties of the more common plants in his discus tanks without ever having a single one melt. Needless to say, I took this all in with a grain of salt, even though I'm generally a very positive person.

I haven't discussed numbers of dither fish to be appropriately kept with discus, because there are so many other factors and variables to be taken into account, such as size of tank, number of discus being kept in the tank, how many other species you'd like to keep together with your discus, etc.

And there are likely several other species of fish that I haven't mentioned, but if any of you have a specific type you want to know about, let me know & I'll try to give you a reading on their suitability.

Now, let's get on to suitable plants for that community tank of yours:

First though, I'd like to mention that many discus-keepers use pool filter sand as their substrate of choice, mainly because of it's ease of keeping clean, and it's natural good looks. If you're planning on doing so, I recommend you use root tab ferts in the sand for reasonably good plant growth.

And as well, I'm a great believer in keeping things simple in a discus tank (that's one of my "6 Cardinal Rules" for discus newbies to follow), so my suggestion is to avoid, at least at first, complicating matters by going high-tech and using CO2 along with a strict fertilizing regime, which can be problematic, result in pH swings, and/or be a cause for other undesirable occurences.

Plants that seem to generally do very well in the higher discus temps include:

- All types of Anubias and Java Ferns, to be attached to driftwood or other hardscape (e.g. rocks).

- Rooted plants:

All types of Echinodorus plants (Swords); most types of Cryptocorynes; Giant Hair Grasses, Jumbo Vallisneria, or Sagittarius, all Hygrophilas; Ludwigias; Rotalas; Bacopas; all Nymphaeas; Crinums; Gymnocoronis; Nesaeas. There are others as well.

I believe it's pertinent to note here that, on occasion, a few of these varieties of plants may fail to not acclimate properly to the higher temp, and not do well for no apparent reason, but the poor result could be a factor of water column fertilizing regime, or lack thereof, lighting intensity and periods, use of Excel, the list goes on.

There may be other occasions too, where, e.g. Crypts (and other plants too) may not do well at first, and begin to wilt or 'melt' for a time, then bounce right back with vigor a few weeks later. Some plants may take several weeks to properly acclimate to the over 80F temp, but will eventually begin to thrive.

In my experience, some plants that may possibly do well, but seem to pose a challenge most of the time, are Aponogetons, Corkscrew Vals, some Mosses, and most carpet plants. (And the latter are not recommended in view of the difficulty in keeping the tank squeaky clean with any plant carpeting.)

This is long enough - so I'll close for now.
Hope this at least helps to get you started when you decide to do a planted community discus tank.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

How long does it generally take a 2"-3" discus to become full grown?
Is tehre any Discus which will not grow as large (like kind of a dwaft version)?
Are they geenrally not comfortabel with very bright and powerful lightings (Like the kind used for planted tank HOt5 and such)?
Thank you.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

The rate of growth will depend significantly on the type of tank set-up, size and frequency of water changes, and number and variety of daily feedings.
For example, in a bare-bottom tank, with large daily water changes, and varied diet feedings of 4 to 8 times a day, 2" discus (2 to 3 months old) can usually be expected to grow well, approx. 1/2" to 1" per month, until they reach around 5", when the growth rate will slow down, but they can, and usually will, reach a mature size - 6''- 7" within about a year overall.

The totally opposite scenario is a planted tank, receiving 2 or 3 water changes a week, with say 2 feedings per day, where the growth rate will be far slower and more limited. A 2" fish will likely take many months to reach 5", up to a year - and there will be less fish among a batch, growing out well, as some may be stunted, and few will likely ever reach 7".

There are no dwarf versions of discus, only runts and stunted fish which will seldom reach a size much beyond 3", perhaps 4" max.

Lighting for a discus tank can run the gamut in intensity. While it is generally accepted that discus prefer lower lighting (i.e. are more comfortable), there are many cases where discus have been successfully kept in bright lighting.
However, since it is recommended that things be kept simple, particularly in a planted tank, avoiding the use of CO2, then it follows that lighting should be low to medium, and in a bare-bottom tank as well. No need to create an algae invitation.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Thank you. I have learned so much in this thread. It is so awesome, thanks.
When I look at discus in some LFS I noticed a lot of them have "dark dots" (like fine peppers) on their bodies but when I look at the pictures posted by you guys your discus usually do not have that and the color are very vibrant. Are those black dots an indication of some problems, or are they usually found on not-so-perfect discus only? Thank you.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

That is peppering. It occurs mainly in Pigeon Blood discus, or pigeon-blood based fish, as well as some light-colored pastel fish, yellows, oranges, pinks, reds, and some off-white fish. It does not affect albinos of any kind.
Peppering is not a sign of poor treatment or conditions, nor unhealthy fish, it is simply a genetic trait, and is enhanced, or strengthened, by keeping these types of fish in darker environments, e.g. dark substrate and dark background. It can lighten up considerably, or even disappear, if these colors/strains of fish are kept in a tank with white or light substrate and a light-colored background.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

BTW Fish rookie, I'm glad you're getting some benefit out of this thread. You're asking some very good questions, particularly if you're serious about getting started with discus..
Keep it up, fire away, I'm more than happy to help out in any way I can.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

thank you so much,


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm aiming for a bare bottomed tank but with decorations and a few plants. A happy medium?


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Yes, a happy medium - no harm in that - whatever suits you - all you need to do is maintain a good tank cleansing routine, along with reasonably frequent, fairly large wcs, with a good varied diet, and you'd be fine.


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> Yes, a happy medium - no harm in that - whatever suits you - all you need to do is maintain a good tank cleansing routine, along with reasonably frequent, fairly large wcs, with a good varied diet, and you'd be fine.


I've got a 24W Green Killing Machine that I'm installing in the tank when I figure out how to assemble it. I've got another 55 gallon tank all ready to receive fish. I was going to buy blue angels but it didn't work out. I'm already attached to the discus that I've only had for two days.

I'm leaning towards buying another dozen that have different colors. I just don't want to end up with a fiasco. It's not about the monetary loss it's about killing the fish by being stupid.

My feeling is that discus like to hide a bit so plants seem essential for their psychological well being.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Please keep in mind, lamplighter, that you should only keep a proper number of discus in a given-sized tank. For example, you could keep say, 10 young, smaller discus in a 55 gallon tank until they grow out, but you would need a larger tank to accommodate that many when they get larger and more mature. A 55 gal tank should house no more than 5 or 6 adult discus.

And yes, discus do tend to be shy and skittish for a while when placed in new surroundings, until they get comfortable in a new tank, and may try to hide out until they are comfortable.
But contrary to what you may believe, discus will not likely do as well in a planted tank than in a bare-bottom tank, particularly when young and still growing out.
Planted tanks are much more difficult to keep squeaky clean, and to maintain the high quality tank & water conditions discus need to grow out well and properly. A new discus-keeper would be well-advised not to place young, smaller discus in a planted tank to begin with, at least until they get some experience with discus, and become familiar with their traits and behaviors, or unless they get adult fish to begin with. Just a cautionary note for you.


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