# Is that internal parasite on my endler?



## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Hello,

I lost 2 endlers during last month. It was sporadic and the fish were looking all healthy and well. I did not notice anything on them. Both happened soon to water change, so I thought it might be stress or something like that. The first one I did not pay too much attention, but with second I started watching them more closely. And today after feeding I saw something that could be the reason. I am not sure if these are the fecals, but it's at the anus - tiny red "hair" looking "thing". It is not a worm, it is not alive. And I don't see it getting bigger and falling down, it just stays there. The fish wasn't as fast moving as the rest, but was hungry and eating well, fighting for its share.
After I saw that I gave them 2 pellets of anti bacterial medicated food that I had from before, just in case.
I tried to make a picture, it is not very visible, but you can get the idea.

Hope somebody can indentify this.

Thanks a lot!


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

I think I found it. Sounds pretty nasty 

Camallanus Worms: An Aquariasts Worst Nightmare

This food is supposed to help and I know PetSmart have it, hope I can find it tomorrow and my fish will eat it.

Anti-Parasite Medicated Fish Food - Medications - Fish - PetSmart

And to make it worse, I am not the best in having separate stuff for all my tanks and it can happen to quickly grab a net that was not bleached after used in another tank. So I can easily have them everywhere 
If that medicated food really helps and fish eat it, I'll give it to everybody. But if some of them refuse it?

I bet it came with some guppies I got recently as one or two of them looked "wasted". My new dwarf puffer is sharing the tank with them and that just breaks my heart and it will NOT eat that food. Maybe I shoud crush it together with the bloodworms.

If somebody have experience with that, please help!


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## O.C.D Fishies (Apr 21, 2010)

contact Pat (Mykiss) he sells the lavisol (spelling) I had got them before and this stuff works very well.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Nice!! This is exactly what I found as the best medication together with Fenbendazole.
What you treated with it and how? The water or the food? I will try to get the medicated food tomorrow and will meet Pat on Friday or Saturday for other stuff, so I'll get this as well.
Thanks a lot for the reply! Hope I can safely treat all the tanks for peace of mind. And I will ALWAYS bleach everything right after use from now on.


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## O.C.D Fishies (Apr 21, 2010)

i just used the stuf from pat, he gives you however much and you mix it with 80mls water and then treat each gallon with one ml 2 times i think. never got the food.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

So you treated the same worms?
I read the snails will die but shrimps are OK.
Do you have any experience with that?
I will PM Pat right away, thanks a lot!

Actually this if for Fenbendazole, not for levamisole. I will research this one now.


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## O.C.D Fishies (Apr 21, 2010)

Umm I have no idea about shrimp but i still have snails so they must have been ok lol 
Yah I had the callamous worms, and it worked good I had one death but that guppy was almost gone anyways. I would ask pat what he thinks before you treat with both things. I just did the one and it was gone.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

OK, it seems all of them are OK with this one!
Thank you SO much! About an hour ago I felt so hopeless.
The tank with the infected endler has no shrimps, but several types of snails.
I just think of treating all the tanks, as I am not 100% sure I did not use stuff between tanks  
I'll talk with Pat, thanks a lot!


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## O.C.D Fishies (Apr 21, 2010)

no problem good luck and pat is awesome.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thank you! I just have another reason to finally meet him 
Hope no more deaths for me.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

I guess I am officially guppy hater now! As all my problems starts with guppies  Got some kind of BAD bacterial infection in the Summer, it was AWFUL! And now this...


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh, Milena, that is so sad! I can't see anything with your endler in the photo (my eyes are not great) but callamanus worms are pretty distinctive, I've read, so if you see them they must be there.

Many people here have had those worms and they seem to spread easily. But because of that, there is a lot of good information here. Pat/mykiss has meds, as OCD mentioned, but he has also written a really good post here somewhere, that outlines the entire treatment. I think it's this one, reposted by Mferko: http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/hospital-section-12/experiences-callamanus-worms-solutions-695/

It's painful to think of a fish as tiny as an endler with parasites in its tummy! Ow!

I hope that you don't really hate guppies, though. Any fish can be infected, or maybe you can also get it from plants that came from an infected tank. It's a scary, scary infection but many BCA members have reported really good outcomes with treatment.

Scholz hasn't posted here for awhile but he has a lot of experience with dwarf puffers. He once told me that dwarf puffers often have worms and that over time some of them will look like they're wasting away because of them. He wasn't referring to callamanus worms, but it could be that your parasite will benefit from the callamanus treatment, and be saved from a long term wasting problem. (Just wanted to say something positive in this otherwise bleak situation.)


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thank you so much, Morainy! No, I can't really hate any fish, I love them all and I get attached to every little one that enters my tanks. I was just sad last night. But at least I know what that is and that there is treatment that is proven and succesful. That gives some peace of mind.
I have already contacted Pat as I had to go to his place for several other reasons, that just adds on top of it.
And thanks for the words about the puffer. He/she is such a cutie!! Has huge personality and it is impossible not to love it! It is beside my daugther's bed, as she wanted one for so long. She goes to sleep looking at it and it stares at her. It is able to recognize her already, I know it! Amazing little fish. Hope he/she is fine.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

How are your fish doing, Milena? I hope the medication is working.


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## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

its Camallanus Nematode not callamanus..... The perpetuating of incorrect spelling means google has now indexed tons of info on incorrect spelling. Where did you get your stock from? or new additions? 

In my experience with such high gut loads they are protruding you will loose fish during treatment as worms are hooked internally to organs and when die cause sepsis.

Females that live are often infertile due to damage caused to reproductive organs... 
Best of luck let us know how things go!!!


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Really? Yikes! And now I've misspelled it in another post.



ibenu said:


> its Camallanus Nematode not callamanus..... The perpetuating of incorrect spelling means google has now indexed tons of info on incorrect spelling.


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

Oy this is bad I must check my stock I have a few of these endlers... 

So sorry to see this happening, hope the meds from Pat will help


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks for the concern everybody!

First of all the endlers from Morainy are fine, don't worry all the people that got some from her!

Tom, I think your babies are fine too as I have lost none of the babies so far. They are tiny and the tank is bare bottom, I should know if there is something.

I got a bunch of guppies from a member and a couple of them looked "wasted" and a baby was growing extremely slow, what got me surprized. So, I believe this is where I got the worms from. The thing is the guppies never got in contact with the endlers, so I must have transferred it in that tank myself  I think I am careful with the equipment, but there are a few small cups for food, etc that I probably switch between tanks ocassionally. From what I read when I medicate the worms will get out. And I'll treat all the tanks, some are with bare bottom, so I will know well where I have worms and I'll let you know.

Lisa, the guy with the worm is looking well, but I am prepared I may lose him. I just hope that will be the only one. And I HOPE the females are well, they are gorgeous and the babies from them are big and nice. I guess I will know in a couple of days.

Thanks everybody!

Any more advice on the cleaning? My 20 g where this endler is had large grain gravel and vacuuming it is almost impossible. Is it bad if I can't get all the dead worms out? Would any fish in the bare bottom tanks eat them? What can I do for the fish after the treatment to make them stronger?
Thanks everybody!


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for mentioning that, Milena. I've had a couple of anxious people ask me. My endlers have always been healthy, as far as I can tell, and I've kept them by themselves in new tanks.

But they keep having babies, so it's time to give some away again!



InfraredDream said:


> Thanks for the concern everybody!
> 
> First of all the endlers from Morainy are fine,


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, I have a lot of babies too, I hope I will feel safe to give them away pretty soon too. I will know by tomorrow morning if that tank is clean as I would see worms there.

OK, so, I met Pat (who is an awesome guy BTW, VERY knowledgeble and was so open and nice with the tons of questions I had!) and I medicated all the tanks. I feel very uneasy right now as I will see the ugly truth in a few hours or by the morning.
I will let you know how that goes. Keep your fingers crossed I don't lose too many fish and that the worms will just die completely!


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

Hmm, i captured the 5 livebearers i have from InfraredDream (progeny unknown but not believed to originate from Morainy) and surveyed them

2 look to be endlers, 2 appear to be male guppies? (have a nice tail), and one appears to be a mix of endler and guppy so is a guppler i am guessing...

one of the guppies is the only one showing a red fecal matter so i think it is infected. however they have all been in a same tank for a while and i don't know, infection could have passed to all, i did see brown matter on an endler but i never kept livebearers before so i don't really know i don't think it was a worm

anyway i think i should move them to a quarantine tank and treat them all, just in case...?

i had the endlers in with some kribs and hastatus corries at one point as well, i will keep an eye on them and hope they are okay, may need to treat that tank as well?

I think the 5 pure endler babies I have in a community tank from Milena are fine, they show no sign of any issues and neither does any other fish, and they are basically just fry extremely young i think they would die if they got an infection...

Good luck Milena, hope this works and hopefully I don't need to go see Pat as well, although it is already on my list of things to do in Richmond...


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

OK, update from the night, rather shocking as it is not what I expected.

The guppies reacted to the medication with change in behaviour - very active at first and than right to the bottom. I thought they won't survive it. But now they are back to normal and there is no single one worm in the tank. It is bare bottom, so I know for sure.
The main tank: About 2 hours after I medicated I saw a worm out of another male. Maybe another 2 hours later he managed to get rid of it. The sick one now have 4 sticking out of him. Still active and eating well, I hope he somehow will survive that.
And the shock - the baby tank had a few small worms on the bottom, 1 dead baby and 1 dead shrimp, a mid-size one. It could be from the water change or something else, my shrimps doesn't look very happy in that tank lately, I wan thinking could that be that there are many babies moving around like crazy.
No other fish show worms at all.
These babies are from a mom I got from somebody else, these are not Morainy's endlers. It now seems everything came with these particular ones, not the guppies as I suspected.

user_error, I feel very bad as I thought the babies were fine and it seems they can be infected  As you had them in the tank, who knows  From what I read, the worms reproduce when they stick out of the fish, so I guess if yours are infected, they are still small, at least what I saw on the bottom of that tank were very tiny ones.
How big is that tank? Is it planted and what kind of gravel it has?
I will probably have some extra medication after I treat for the second time in 3 weeks. I can give that to you if the tank is small. From what I read it is supposed to be harmless for shrimps, snails, etc. 

That's the update. Only thing that bothers me now is user_error and the fish I gave him  As well as what's going on with my shrimps, but that is another story.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

This is pretty devastating news, Milena and User_error. Really too bad, especially as your infected fish are small fish (and small fish have a tougher time with nematodes). 

At this point, I would highly recommend treating all your fish, even the baby ones, User_error. Although I don't have personal experience with nematodes, I have heard that they are very contagious and I think that the part that is passed on is microscopic. So, nets and equipment need to be treated, too. The medication might be hard on shrimp or juvies but if you only treat some fish, then the infection will likely re-emerge.

I have many baby endlers right now and they are healthy (and have always been healthy). If you find that your endlers don't survive, Milena and User-Error, and if you still want some endlers, I would be happy to give you some. But I hope that it doesn't come to that!


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

On a second though, I am not sure what was in babies tank are actually worms, I am confused now and will need magnifiyng glass or something. I cleaned the bottom to get the dead baby and shrimp and now the "worms" look more like fecals. I know that I never saw that kind of fecals ever since I have this tank, so I got them for worms, especially as I was looking for worms.

As for equipment, I bleached everything last night after I medicated all the tanks.
And I am pretty sure the worst part of the treatment is over as the fish look happy and active in all tanks now and no more stringy poo or worms from anybody, but the first endler (in the picture here), he just have 2 of the 4 he had this morning.

user_error, I will do my best to examine what I got out of the tank and HOPEFULLY these not worms, just different poo because of medication.

Morainy, thanks for the support as always! You know how appreciated it is.


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

I am on wait and see for now, so far only 1 fish shows any negative signs and the baby endlers appear very healthy eating and such...

Milena don't worry abt the issue for my sake, you had no way of knowing and for me this is pretty interesting to see what happens so far nothing bad has happened and i've been watching now for last few days so I hope I'm okay

And also thanks to Maureen for the support


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

ROTFL! Milena, that is so funny! And I did that once, too! After reading here all about callamanus worms or camallanus worms (whichever they are) I started staring at the fish that I had at the time (pre-endlers) and every time a fish started to poop I was ready to medicate.

Was the poop brown or red? Probably worms! Whitish? Maybe parasites! I even started to wonder about the length of the poop... what was the right length, and what was the sign of a parasite?

I had fish for years and years before coming to BCA and I never worried about them being sick in all that time. But now that I'm better informed, I worry all the time! If I had a bare bottom tank and saw fish poop on it, I'd probably think they were worms, too. For sure I would.

I would almost swear that in the olden days before I was a BCA member, my fish didn't poop. Not when I was looking, anyway!



InfraredDream said:


> I cleaned the bottom to get the dead baby and shrimp and now the "worms" look more like fecals.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks so much for the laugh, Morainy, I needed that 
Still not sure even after I examined them. I made a picture and will post it if you want. Funny! To post a picture of baby endlers fecals 
For the big fish it's different though, the worms show very well - they are long, tiny and RED. I never really see poo in the baby tank I guess the shrimps and snails go through it and everything becomes small pieces. This morning there were a few redish "worm"-looking things on the bottom. Mind you I went to bed at 4am after I medicated, looked at the fish for some time, bleached the equipment, etc.
And I agree, when I was in the hobby before I never had so many issues for such short period. No idea if that is the BC water or the state of the fish.
Anyway, so far so good. I hope it's done. I saw 1-2 more worms in the afternoon, not sure if that were different fish. Interesting is - they were all males!

Tom, thanks for the note, made me feel much better! I hope all your fish are healthy and well! Best wishes to you too.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Another update.

No more worms from any of the fish and the baby tank's bottom was clean this morning as usual, no fecals, etc. So I guess what I saw yesterday's morning were worms or larvas or something connected with that.
I made water change in all tanks and I think everybody is happy now.
Everybody but the shrimps  Lost almost all of them and the rest look bad  Very letargic, almost no movement  I am very sad  it was totally unexpected  I got these most of these shrimps as babies and it is devastating to lose them like that  The medication was supposed to be safe for them, but apparently is not  I guess I should post in the other topic, so people know they take a big risk with that.

So, that is the situation currently. I was prepared to lose some of the endlers and lost just 2 tiny babies. But I lost the shrimps  and I was not prepared for that to happen. I wish it was the opposite as I had another bunch of baby endlers this morning and my shrimps never had babies 

Morainy, by the way, I put some of the biggest babies in the big tank with the adults this morning and almost all adults chase them. They are big enough to swim away, but just wanted to share that. Interesting.


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## Blackbar (Apr 23, 2010)

Just so everyone can avoid confusion, though faeces is sometimes red, the camallanus worms are red and very pointed, looking like protruding sharp needles. I understand the paranoia, I've had to deal with them twice in the past. Once, the source was King Ed's guppies, the other was a member here. Was able to catch it quick the second time and inform the member who sold me the fish. He treated all his tanks and was able to inform the individual he got his fish from. Sort of like tracing back a bad VD lol.


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Thank you for the input.
I see more fecals now and I know it is because my shrimps are gone 
I got the ones that are still somewhat alive in a bucket with clean water, but I think they are almost all gone  Looking at the baby tank now make me very sad  No matter I got another batch today, I miss the shrimpies


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

Sorry to hear this Milena, I have a few RCS I will bring u next time we see each other...

Update on my part - I havent seen any red today at all, I thik maybe what I saw yesterday was some red fecals. I will watch them another week but I feel right now that I haven't got this infection, least I see 0 sign as of today...


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## InfraredDream (Jun 24, 2010)

Too nice from you, Tom, thanks! I know I will get some cherries soon, but for some reason I was very much attached to these ones as we got them as babies I guess. One of them, a real beauty came from Morainy, just sneak with the plants, etc. We kinda knew each of them individually 
BTW, you breed them? I was not able to and don't know why  Would love to solve that mistery too.
And I HOPE you have no worms there!! Guppies seem clean, no worms in their tank at all and endler babies are under question.
I'll give you more babies if you want next time we meet.

I hope you are well.
Thanks again for the support, means a lot right now!


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## Atom (Apr 21, 2010)

This is a very informative thread. I now too have a guppy that has been infected with these nasty worms and he has shared a tank with my chili rasboras and cherry shrimp for 3 days now. I'm worried about my rasboras and shrimp with the medication that is mentioned.

Any advice for me? Thanks.


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