# can someone tell me why my plants aren't growing?



## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

Helloo!

I've been trying to figure out why my plants aren't growing. I've decided to take photos in hope that someone can figure it out by the color and the wilting of the leaves.

coles notes:
no co2
Normal output lighting, 1x6700k, 1xantics
normal aquarium gravel substrate
no fertilizers

sorry if the images suck cause this is my first time posting with pics. I can always try to retake more if they aren't clear enough!


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## CRS Fan (Apr 21, 2010)

It looks like the rhizomes are buried and the plants are dying (or is the Windelov tied to a piece of wood/rock?). It also looks like the leaves are browning which could also be indicative of Nitrate deficiency in Java Fern type plants.

Hopefully this helps,

Stuart


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## someguy (Apr 21, 2010)

i agree with stuart. 

how tall is the tank?? how many Gallons is it, you might wanna get rid of the attinic.


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## Fish Whisper (Apr 22, 2010)

Maybe limit the duration of light kept on,

CO2/nitates/light have to be balanced if there is a limiting factor and excess in others, problems could be caused


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## ug.mac (Jul 13, 2010)

Growth of plant always limiting by 1. availability of carbon and 2. carbon uptake rate of plant. Without CO2 photosynthesis won't even get going then your plants won't grow. Since you are not supplying additional CO2 source so I would consider adding bicarbonate (Seachem Flourish Excel) if you are not interested in CO2 injection. Because plants will use extra energy to use bicarbonate due to transformation and energy are from your light so you must manage light carefully not having too much (too strong or too long of photoperiod), unless you are making algae wafers. Since energy available for your plants is low so growth will be slow too, so be patient.

Read this article from Tropica:
http://www.tropica.com/advising/technical-articles/biology-of-aquatic-plants/co2-and-light.aspx

NPK and micro nutrients are all important for healthier plant but they are not limiting factor if CO2 is limiting. You need to pay close attention to your plants for any sign of deficiencies. See below:










460nm actinics bulb won't do anything to your plants, neither beneficial nor harmful. But replacing it with another 6700K bulb will double light intensive, which will lead to algae problem.

ug.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

If you got this plant out of a high tech system (high light, co2, EI fertilizing or equivalent) and placed the plant in a low tech system (lower light, no co2, little to no fertilizer), there is always a chance the plant will lose the older leaves as the new system cannot sustained the old growth. Gravel has nothing to do with java fern withering away as much as lack of fertilizer unless the rhizome rotted, like CRS fan said. 

If the plant came out of a simpler system, the coral spike(?) up top usually doesn't get as long and distinct. 

I keep windelov java fern floating in a high light, no co2, non fertilized system as a nutrient sponge. I do add micro nutrients and gH booster (ca/mg/K) in the water. Plant stays pretty small. around 3 to 4". older leaves do get black spot from time to time. New growth is usually better once the plant get readjusted to the new setup.

Bare minimum with 2x NO T5 is micro nutrients and potassium -- Flourish, potassium sulphate. N and P can be rely on fish waste/food to supplement the tank.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

CRS Fan said:


> It looks like the rhizomes are buried and the plants are dying (or is the Windelov tied to a piece of wood/rock?). It also looks like the leaves are browning which could also be indicative of Nitrate deficiency in Java Fern type plants.
> 
> Hopefully this helps,
> 
> Stuart


hm...is the rhizomes suppose to be above the gravel cause I think at the moment, it is buried. I assumed it was just like the rest of the other roots and have it buried away. Nothing is tied to any rocks. Water is changed on a weekly basis, approximately 1/4 of the tank (33g) and the gravel is given a quick vacuum to rid of the waste from the fish.

The plants came out of a friends tank. He probably supplies the plants with even less light than me, he has no CO2 and does not use fertilizers. He must be doing something right but he can't seem to figure out why I am having so much difficulty.

I do have the light on for many hours of the day. like 14 hours. Should I cut that down or is 14 hrs still legit?

UG.mac, that diagram was very informative! thanks!

I don't mind getting fertilizers but I have no idea which ones to get. From my understanding, the micro is suppose to be a premixed of a little bit of everything one would need, or rather, the bare minimum?

I appreciate all the feed back. Keep it coming =)


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## CRS Fan (Apr 21, 2010)

jlam86 said:


> hm...is the rhizomes suppose to be above the gravel cause I think at the moment, it is buried. I assumed it was just like the rest of the other roots and have it buried away. Nothing is tied to any rocks. Water is changed on a weekly basis, approximately 1/4 of the tank (33g) and the gravel is given a quick vacuum to rid of the waste from the fish.


If the rhizomes are placed below the gravel, they will rot and cause the plant to die. Java ferns are an epiphytic plant that should be teathered/attached to some hardscape for them to attach appropriately.

I would keep your photoperiod in the 8 - 10 hr/day timeframe set by a timer.

Hopefully that helps,

Stuart


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

alright. I will try pull them above the rhizomes above the gravel and cut down on the lighting. As for fertilizers, do you think I should invest in some or make those changes listed above and then go from there?


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

If this came out of a low light tank and you placed it under higher light, the plant will need a bit more fertilizer as higher light level = more nutrients uptake. A change in the environment will most likely change the way the plant looks, grow and take up nutrients. 

Plants are funny that way.

What size of tank is this and what type of lighting do you have? T5? T8? T12? reflector.

From looking at the plant, This looks like nitrogen deficiency. But we cannot tell exactly until we can determined if this is temporary due to change in the water parameter or lack of nutrients.

Do you add any gH in the water?


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

Nice chart,ug-mac.
I liked it so much,I printed it out and stapled it into my logbook.
Thanks.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

EDGE said:


> If this came out of a low light tank and you placed it under higher light, the plant will need a bit more fertilizer as higher light level = more nutrients uptake. A change in the environment will most likely change the way the plant looks, grow and take up nutrients.
> 
> Plants are funny that way.
> 
> ...


t5, no reflector, 33g, and no added gH. Only thing added is a touch of aquarium salt. Ph is at 7ish.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

The plant might be melting (clear leaves tip) and turning brown/black caused by low nitrate. Could also be diatom algae coating the leaves and only the tip turning clear/brown/black. Hard to tell with the photo. I will take a photo of nitrate deficient fern tomorrow when the lights are on.

Hard to say what is causing the problem as there can be a few things that caused the melting at the tip. I have had plant melt from adding aquarium salt, or large amount of potassium/calcium or lack of calcium. The sudden raise in electrical conductivity or TDS total dissolved solids can caused plant melt. This require electronic eC/TDS (electrical conductivity/total dissolved solids) meter to test the water.

Do you add enough salt to replace the water you changed or just add a fixed amount?

Couple things that might fix the problem. This targets melting, browning/blackening, nitrate and micro deficiency.

Stop adding salt
add gH (seachem equilibrium is a good choice as this cover Ca/Mg/K/Fe/Mn)
Add Nitrate (macro) 
Add flourish (micro)

Normally, I would say do a large 50% water change to reset the water parameter, but *if* there is a huge amount of salt in the water, a large water change might stress the fish out being that they are not used to the sudden drop in eC/TDS.

i.e. If TDS is at 300, 50% water change drops down to 150. If TDS is at 900, 50% water change drop down to 450. that is a huge drop compare to low TDS. This does not factor in what is in the tap water and what you add back in the water after the water change.

42w (with 1 actinic) T5 over 33 gallon long is not a lot of light even at 12" depth.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

FYI,TDS meters are under $10 shipped on ebay.Cheap!


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

EDGE said:


> The plant might be melting (clear leaves tip) and turning brown/black caused by low nitrate. Could also be diatom algae coating the leaves and only the tip turning clear/brown/black. Hard to tell with the photo. I will take a photo of nitrate deficient fern tomorrow when the lights are on.
> 
> Hard to say what is causing the problem as there can be a few things that caused the melting at the tip. I have had plant melt from adding aquarium salt, or large amount of potassium/calcium or lack of calcium. The sudden raise in electrical conductivity or TDS total dissolved solids can caused plant melt. This require electronic eC/TDS (electrical conductivity/total dissolved solids) meter to test the water.
> 
> ...


The tank is 17'' tall. Perhaps I should pick up another 6700K grow light?

Each week, I pump out roughly 20L of water and replenish it with another 20L of water. I use 2 teaspoons of the aquarium salt for every ten liters as directed by the box for a fresh water aquarium. Should be ok right? My fish all seem to be quite happy with the chemistry of the water. Only the plants aren't liking it. Should i discontinue the salt addition?

I just pulled all the plants out of the gravel to ensure the rhizomes weren't buried anymore. Looks like all the roots have started to attach themselves to the gravel but the rhizomes still look healthy and green =)


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

kelownaguy said:


> FYI,TDS meters are under $10 shipped on ebay.Cheap!


thanks for the FYI


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## someguy (Apr 21, 2010)

i think you have your answer, your plants were pissed at yah, but not die'n. i'm sure that if you give them a bit of time with the rhizom above the grave, and a little fertiliser, they'll be happy as can be. quite often you can do more damage try'n to do to much, then not enough.



jlam86 said:


> The tank is 17'' tall. Perhaps I should pick up another 6700K grow light?
> 
> Each week, I pump out roughly 20L of water and replenish it with another 20L of water. I use 2 teaspoons of the aquarium salt for every ten liters as directed by the box for a fresh water aquarium. Should be ok right? My fish all seem to be quite happy with the chemistry of the water. Only the plants aren't liking it. Should i discontinue the salt addition?
> 
> I just pulled all the plants out of the gravel to ensure the rhizomes weren't buried anymore. Looks like all the roots have started to attach themselves to the gravel but the rhizomes still look healthy and green =)


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Here is a photo of nitrate deficiency










The leaf on the left side above the rhizome. FYI: The plant is upside down. I have them free floating to use as shade and nutrient sponge for the fish. This tank only gets gH and Micro nutrients and is under 2x HO T5. no CO2. bi-daily water change of 50% with cold tap water.

If your plant doesn't look like this blackening in the photo, but going clear, then most likely high TDS level or sodium level or low Calcium.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

ok. My rhizomes are the same color as yours. Where your plants are yellow, mine are nice and green. Some of my leaves look similar to the one on the top left of your image with the brown next to the whisker-roots, but looks a little more dark green/black rather than brown.

I will try cutting out the salt solution from the water changes and slowly let the tds go down. thanks edge!

So should I look into getting some gH and Micro nutrients or shall I wait to see the results with less salt?


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Wait till you reset the tank and then go from there. When you start adding gH, the TDS will go up but not as much as salt. I add roughly 1 to 2 gH back into the water.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

gotcha! thank you!


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

pretty much i'd recommend going full EI or not touching it at all. Get those rhizomes out of the gravel as recommended, i've attatched them to wood, planted just the roots and also weighted it down with rocks. As long as theres fish in the tank, and the lights are low it will grow fine unless you have the tank filled with it.

Now if you wish to remain low light, and keep low light plants and keep maintnence low, then just buffer your water with equillibrium, its pretty much needed in vancouver to help the fish, and it'll provide many essential nutrients the plants would use. Fish poop, water buffered and food waste combined should be enough to keep a low light tanks happy. If you are experiencing the ferns withering, add a couple fish, wait and see or do a slight reduction to the amount of water you change.


When you up the lights to medium or higher though, then you really need to worry about the nutrients if you want a healthy planted tank. If you go that route then i recommend following an EI regime, with co2 or metricide to keep the plants uptake optimal.

But with either choice, snip off that furry black algae and do what you can to keep it out of the tank, i've had an outbreak of it before due to not addressing the issue and man does it get ugly to fix without a high output co2 system to aide you


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

Equillibrium doesn`t have any pH buffering ability.All of the ingredients are sulphates.
It merely raises gh and supplies potassium,iron and maganese as noted.

I use potassium bicarbonate to create a buffer w/carbonic acid formed from dissolved co2.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

neven said:


> pretty much i'd recommend going full EI or not touching it at all. Get those rhizomes out of the gravel as recommended, i've attatched them to wood, planted just the roots and also weighted it down with rocks. As long as theres fish in the tank, and the lights are low it will grow fine unless you have the tank filled with it.
> 
> Now if you wish to remain low light, and keep low light plants and keep maintnence low, then just buffer your water with equillibrium, its pretty much needed in vancouver to help the fish, and it'll provide many essential nutrients the plants would use. Fish poop, water buffered and food waste combined should be enough to keep a low light tanks happy. If you are experiencing the ferns withering, add a couple fish, wait and see or do a slight reduction to the amount of water you change.
> 
> co2 system to aide you


Thanks for the feedback. I don't have issues with them floating off on me or anything. They sit nicely on top of the gravel even without having to weighing them down. What do you mean by a buffer? I have like 26 fish and a frog in the tank. Everyone gets a long just fine except the two angel fish like to pick on each other. Aside from that, the tank has been this way since the summer aside from the addition of plants now. There is plenty of waste when I do the water changes so I think that isn't much of an issue. I want to keep my tank low lighted cause it's too much hassle to go through the co2 stuff right now esp cause I am just starting. Is there a premixed fert of the essentials for the plants so I don't have to mix all the chemicals myself? Don't really want to do too much and end up killing all the fish...

On a side note, since I've pulled the rhizomes above the gravel, the plants all seem to be doing a little better already. Still debating to slowly eliminate the aquarium salt or not. I am also growing some CRS and will be introducing them into the tank once they are large enough not to be fish snacks lol


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

If you want low maintenance plants without a lot of fertilizing, go with Cryptocoryne, echinodorus parviflorus 'tropica', saggitaria subulata. These are heavy root feeders and can feed off of fish waste more easily than stem plants and non gravel base plants. If you want low light plants, java fern, cryptocorynes, anubias, moss.

There is a difference in choice between low light and low maintenance. If you are seeing nitrate deficiency on java fern, you have enough light to bottom out the nitrate. low light situation *normally* doesn't cause nitrate deficiency because plants grow so slow they can grow with the small amount of nutrients in the water.

Here is a photo of cryptocoryne affinis in a low maintenance, high light tank. same as the other setup, no CO2, no ferts. Just gH and a random shot of micro nutrients. no gravel vac as this will slow down if not stop the cryptocoryne from establishing. tank get fed 3 times a day with NLS thera-a, tetra tablet, and sometimes blackworms. This is a 10 gallon and the plant covers 1/2 the tank and up both side. photo is taken from the narrow side of the tank.










I will attached a photo of a low light setup tank with cryptocoryne wendtii 'green' and Anubias afzelii.

Anubias afzelii in a 50 gallon with 2x 30 Watt T12 Daylight bulbs. The small plants on the left is cryptocoryne wendtii 'green' A. afzelii been in the tank just under 2 years. Put out 1 leaf every 2 months or so. Only thing added to this tank is gH. no micro nutrients. No gravel vac in the tank. Tank is fed with beefheart, hikari carnivore pellets, hikari algae wafer.










The reason I choose to run moderate to high light for crypts is because they get a lot bigger and grow a lot faster. This is the average size they get under very low light. This tank gets about 1 to 2 hour of morning daylight on the left side when the sun is out.

wendtii 'green' (2" long leaf approx) been in the 50g for over 8 months. C. Affinis (6" long leaf) been in the 10g for about 16 months and have been thinned out a couple times.

This is so you get an idea of what can be grown with a minimalistic approach without fertilizing in low tech setup.


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## jlam86 (Dec 7, 2010)

hm...those plants aren't really the look I am going for lol!

Surprisingly, after pulling the rhizomes out of the gravel, my plants look a lot more healthy. I'll leave everything as is for now and keep close tabs on the tank. everything in the tank is growing right now =) thanks so much for all of your help everyone!


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