# Newbie with Questions



## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Hi Guys, I haven't had a tank in 10 years and man technology sure caught up. 
To the point : I have a new cycling tank & after 3 1/2 weeks I still have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites. I was at my local aquariums store & talking to the owner. I put Eco -complete substrate in and he said that this substrate was capable of cycling the tank so slowly(or quickly) that I might never see the spikes associated with tank cycling.

Ok tank set up first
- 4 bags of Eco-complete planted aquarium substrate
- 2 pieces of Mopani wood
- 4 plants (just added)
- 10 Danios
- this is in an Aqua Nova 1208r

I have had a higher than liked pH from the beggining approx 7.8 I would like a pH of 7.
I have tried some pH minus (no luck just rebounds)

Questions
- Does the substrate have anything to do with the pH (GH or KH)?
- Does the substrate cause a slower/faster cycle?
- Is the owner of the store correct in saying to add the fish as the cycle won't be noticed due to the substrate?
- Is there anything I can do about the pH? (water changes?)
- Is there a way to test KH?

I would love to add some loaches in about 3 weeks but won't if I can't reduce the pH ( the whole GH & KH is new to me )

Thanks for any help!


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## MEDHBSI (Sep 4, 2011)

The wood may be the cause of the ph issues. Fish aren't going to die on you in different ph's it causes death when the ph goes up and down. you should check 3 times a day morning noon and night and after a water change to see if the ph swings at all. As for all your other questions ill have to leave that to other people i don't use a substrate.


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

The substrate can affect pH, GH and KH. Depending on whether the substrate has calcium, magnesium, etc that hardens the water it can raise GH and KH.
My own experience with Eco Complete is that it really doesn't affect GH and KH (my tank with Eco Complete was around 1KH and 1GH without additives to modify), Eco Complete does buffer the water somewhere between neutral pH and mild alkaline. My tank water always tended to be between 7.0 - 7.2 without CO2.

Substrate can improve the cycle because it is a place where beneficial bacteria that breaks down ammonia can colonize.
You want to add some hardy fish to start the cycling process. Having no fish in a tank that is cycling is safer for the fish, but lengthens the cycling time.

You want to do a bunch of water changes while cycling, that might help with the pH too. I would also test the ph of your tap water to see what you get from it. Depending on where you are in Langley, if you get well water, you might be getting alkaline water.

How are you testing your Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrites? What kit are you using? It is possible to get 0 across the board for all three, but very unlikely for a tank with Eco Complete substrate as it can leach any of the above while cycling. I can't really speak for how much it leaches after cycling as I was dosing fertilizers afterwards.
There are kits for testing KH and GH; it is really easy to do.

Hope this helps.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Vmax said:


> - Is there a way to test KH?


 API GH/KH Freshwater Test Kit or API Alkalinity (KH) Test Kit


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

I currently have a 10 gallon tank that seems to have the same problem of having the pH raise up to around 7.8. There are only 3 possibilities: florabase, playsand, or wood. 
Since florabase is neutral, it could be the other two. I've yet to test playsand sitting in water nor pull up the wood. I've heard of stones turning the water alkaline but not wood.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

What size is an Aqua Nova 1208r? 270L (72 gallons)? If so, 10 Danios is going to put very little ammonia into the tank, especially since you have plants in there. So your cycle is starting, but very slow. There's probably some ammonia in there, but your test kit probably isn't capable of measuring accurately enough that low (< 1 ppm I bet).

As for you other questions:
- Does the substrate have anything to do with the pH (GH or KH)? yes, Eco-complete buffers the water slightly. The effect is stronger when it's new. Eco-Complete Planted
- Does the substrate cause a slower/faster cycle? It will help the cycle, but only if you have sufficient ammonia to feed the cycle
- Is the owner of the store correct in saying to add the fish as the cycle won't be noticed due to the substrate? Partially correct. Light fish load in a fairly good sized tank with plants and a substrate like Eco-Complete would work. In other circumstances it would be wrong
- Is there anything I can do about the pH? (water changes?) Water changes should be done regardless, but not if you're trying to cycle the tank.
- Is there a way to test KH? Yes, you should have something like a Master test kit to test pH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate when you are starting a tank from scratch.

With regards to your concerns about the loaches, what kind? I would think a pH of 7.8 is not going to hurt anything. I would not add products to the tank which would always yoyo-ing of the pH. Rather, you can add some driftwood and/or almond leaves, or peat, to lower the pH naturally and keep it there. But in reality I wouldn't worry about it at all.


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## Master wilkins (Dec 10, 2012)

Mopani wood actually lowers the PH in aquariums. Whatever your PH problem is, i can guarantee the wood is not the cause. If you have any rocks in your aquarium, they can raise the PH levels. Instead of PH minus, try PH Neutral, I put a little of that in each of my water changes and I've never had any problems with my water quality. 

Are you using any sort of water conditioner before adding it to the aquarium such as "prime" or "Nutrafin Aqua Plus"?

P.S. I just typed "Eco Complete PH" into google and a bunch of posts came up from people like you saying that their PH is too high, around 7.8 in most cases. I think I just found your problem.


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## Tarobot (Jun 27, 2010)

ecocomplete and wood all lower your ph. so test your tapwater PH to begin with and if you are buffing KH then it's the KH. ++kh = ++ph. if you are using equilibrium stuff to ++kh it says on the bottle to use with their acid buffers for PH control, but if all you want is neutral 7, get their neutral regulator which sets to ph 7 and also acts as dechlorinator.


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks for all your replies 
I'm going to get the test kit Diztrbd1 mentioned & see what it's results are.
@ Rekon I use an Api master kit but it doesn't test GH or KH and the ammonia level is between 0 and .25 kinda hard to see the difference on the chart.
@ 2wheelsx2 it is a 72 gal tank. & the loaches I was refering to was actually a spiny eel & farowella cat or even Bolivian ram or glass knife fish....sorry for the mistake, but I do want horseface, khuli, and hillstream loaches.
@ Master wilkins I had heard that about mopani and that is why I put it in the tank. I had put prime in at the beginning.
@Tarobot the tap water tested at 6.8. but I'm wondering if (he says embarassed) when I first set the tank up I put a spoonful of eqilibrium in , no plants fish or wood was in at the time.
on the eqilibrium bottle it does say to use an alkaline buffer....doesn't that mean it will raise the pH?


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok just tested the tank results are
GH 160
KH 70
pH 7.8 Tap water - 6.8
ammonia 0 -.25
Nitrate 0
nitrite 0
Does this sound OK?

Is a Hagen GH/Kh kit ok to use?


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## Tommy72a (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi Vmax,

Few questions for you.

1) are you planning to place more plants?
2) what are your tank dimensions and type of lights using? 
3) you mentioned you have purchased 4 plants. Are you planning to get more plants?

I ask these question because you will be surprised how much the plants will eat up ammonia. I don't think handful of loaches and danios in your 72 gallon will not be an issue. When I placed 50 odd fish in my heavily planted 75 gallon tank, I barely saw traces of ammonia. Yes I realize you only have 4 plants but I think you are going to be okay. As for your PH, it seems bit high but I wouldn't worry about it too much. I've always hated the idea of lowering the PH using chemicals because its difficult, expensive and makes your tank unstable. In my opinion, the best way to lower your PH is to add Co2. There are lots of good DIY co2 articles here to help build one yourself. it's inexpensive and your plants will thrive.
I never tried Hagen test kits, I ve used API and I recommend them.


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Remember, plants soak up nitrate not ammonia. It's the beneficial bacteria that eat up the ammonia and the byproducts are nitrite, eaten up by bacteria and in turn byproduct to nitrate which the plants soak up.

Since you've dosed Seachem equilibrium, it increases KH which in turn also increases pH. As you do more frequent water changes, assuming that you do not dose anymore equilibrium, your pH will eventually lower to what is coming out of your tap...6.8.

here are some additional resources as to why your pH may be high due to dosing Equilbrium. Remember to dose it sparingly and to the level of GH that you desire.

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/freshwater-chat-9/gh-ph-12149/
Drastic increase of pH with Seachem Equilibrium!!
Question about Seachem Equilibrium

Questions
- Does the substrate have anything to do with the pH (GH or KH)? Since you have eco-complete, it shouldn't.
- Does the substrate cause a slower/faster cycle?The eco-complete you have should come with live bacteria which helps cycling the tank faster compared to dry sand or gravel.
- Is the owner of the store correct in saying to add the fish as the cycle won't be noticed due to the substrate? Yes, since you only have 10 danios and the eco-complete has live beneficial bacteria which helps breakdown fish waste.
- Is there anything I can do about the pH? (water changes?) what do you want your tank's pH level to be? if you want it to lower, don't dose so much seachem equilibrium, do a few more water changes; however, the wood and waste in the tank will eventually lower the pH. 
- Is there a way to test KH? Yes. use a API GH/KH test kit. API GH/KH Freshwater Test Kit


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## Tommy72a (Jan 6, 2013)

Hey jobber, 
You are right but I mean to say ammonium(NH4). I still stand by that plants will take up NH4 and lots of it. Often planted tanks don't get a chance to go through a traditional cycle because not enough Ammonia convert to Nitrite then to Nitrate. Sorry im getting off topic here and I do realize that the OP only has 4 plants.


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## Tarobot (Jun 27, 2010)

that's weird, my seachem equilibrium bottle has no mention of alkaline usage but equilibrium should NOT affect your ph.

equilibrium is for mineral balances which is your GH

KH control your PH's ability to fluctuate, so if your ph is 8 with a kh of let's say 120, you adding 30% of new water with ph at 6 wouldnt lower your ph by too much but KH also raises your PH thus requires alkaline buffers to lower.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Tarobot said:


> KH control your PH's ability to fluctuate, so if your ph is 8 with a kh of let's say 120, you adding 30% of new water with ph at 6 wouldnt lower your ph by too much but KH also raises your PH thus requires alkaline buffers to lower.


Alkaline buffers lower pH?!?

Plants do preferentially take up NH3 (or more accurate NH4+) over nitrate because it take less energy to utilize in the free form. Heavily planted tanks do cycle, but as Tommy72a indicated, unconventionally, since the the ammonia spike never happens and the plants manage the ammonia and the little bit that exists prior to uptake eventually completes the cycle. That's the reason why a lot of planted tanks look great for a short while and then things go downhill unless dosing commences to fulfill the needs of the plants.


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## Tommy72a (Jan 6, 2013)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Alkaline buffers lower pH?!?
> 
> Plants do preferentially take up NH3 (or more accurate NH4+) over nitrate because it take less energy to utilize in the free form. Heavily planted tanks do cycle, but as Tommy72a indicated, unconventionally, since the the ammonia spike never happens and the plants manage the ammonia and the little bit that exists prior to uptake eventually completes the cycle. That's the reason why a lot of planted tanks look great for a short while and then things go downhill unless dosing commences to fulfill the needs of the plants.


2wheels,

Well explained !!


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## Tarobot (Jun 27, 2010)

i meant to write acid buffers. lol


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

The Eco Complete has to break in, KH is at a moderate level, but GH is leaning on the higher side; I think do 1-2 30-50% water changes per week for the next 2 weeks and then test again. Back off on the Equilibrium after water changes. You should see everything drop a few points.

Any pictures of your tank?

Best of luck!


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Tommy72a said:


> Hi Vmax,
> 
> Few questions for you.
> 
> ...


Hi, yes I am adding more plants 
the lighting is 3 T5s 2 re one blue I use the red during the day and the blue at night
I will look into co2 dosing thanks for the info


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

jobber said:


> Remember, plants soak up nitrate not ammonia. It's the beneficial bacteria that eat up the ammonia and the byproducts are nitrite, eaten up by bacteria and in turn byproduct to nitrate which the plants soak up.
> 
> Since you've dosed Seachem equilibrium, it increases KH which in turn also increases pH. As you do more frequent water changes, assuming that you do not dose anymore equilibrium, your pH will eventually lower to what is coming out of your tap...6.8.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info  I have decided to only do water changes and not add anything till I see a change
and I'm going to get an API test kit


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Reckon said:


> The Eco Complete has to break in, KH is at a moderate level, but GH is leaning on the higher side; I think do 1-2 30-50% water changes per week for the next 2 weeks and then test again. Back off on the Equilibrium after water changes. You should see everything drop a few points.
> 
> Any pictures of your tank?
> 
> Best of luck!


Thanks Reckon, I am going to do the water changes and see what results come from them minus adding anything other than H20
No pics of the tank yet but soon


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Reckon said:


> The Eco Complete has to break in, KH is at a moderate level, but GH is leaning on the higher side; I think do 1-2 30-50% water changes per week for the next 2 weeks and then test again. Back off on the Equilibrium after water changes. You should see everything drop a few points.
> 
> Any pictures of your tank?
> 
> Best of luck!


Thanks Reckon, I am going to do the water changes and see what results come from them minus adding anything other than H20
No pics of the tank yet but soon


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## Vmax (Mar 16, 2013)

Wow I have to say you guys are really great! 
I appreciate all the info that you have given me!
I am now going to wait and see what the water changes will do.


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