# DISCUS Emergency



## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

So today I almost had three Discus fry (1-2") die on me . I was carrying out my water changes , when halfway through I noticed two discus were on their sides lying on the bottom of the tank being swept around topsy-turvy by the current (which is minimal). I grabbed both of them and held them in my hands just below the surface over the bubbler so they wouldn't be jostled. 5min later they both swam off and were fine . About a 1/4change left to go and I have my 1 smaller one on the bottom completely drained of colour just like the other two . I thought he was a goner but repeat procedure his colour returned slowly 15min later he swam off - nothing has changed; my routine for the past week has been identical .

What did I do wrong?

My water goes from my tap to a holding bucket where its heated and aerated - I only ever add Prime , it is then pumped slowly into my tank. 
The water temp change goes from 86 to 84
pH is 6.6** (Sorry realised this typo too late)
I do 90% changes daily


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Sorry, now realize this should be in hospital section


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

I'd say a ph drop. Or the fading off bubbles which there should t be any of your using a holding tank. 
If ph goes down you can get ph shock. 



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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

aprilsaquarium said:


> I'd say a ph drop. Or the fading off bubbles which there should t be any of your using a holding tank.
> If ph goes down you can get ph shock.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm with April on that it's likely PH. I do two things to make sure this doesn't happen when I do water changes, (1) add equilibrium or Epsom salts or sea salt once the new fresh water starts flowing back in and (2) add some coral substrate & oyster shells to be bottom of the tank. Glad that you saved them


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Moved to Hospital section.


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## Ocean (Nov 20, 2014)

Maybe it's to big of a change.. try 30-50% wc instead of 90?


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

90 is fine if it doesn't go down. Going up is fine. A 2 degree drop is fine. Anymore and another shock. 
I use equilibrium
Also to
Be sure
My ph does nt slide .
If the filter does t keep up and high biolaod ph slides. Also you need some
Hardness for proper nitrification 


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## cpat83 (Sep 1, 2015)

what are you feeding them?


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

They get fed a homemade beefheart mix , frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, and freeze dried Australian Blackworm. All of which gets siphoned out when they're done.


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

If it was a pH drop why has it only happened now . Did I do something wrong?


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Because they're fry and I want the tank clean I have them on a bare bottom tank


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

Some
Breeders just
Do wcs and. O filter as you get swings constant especially when they get eating a lot and
More waste. The swings is what kills them. 
The best ones I ever raised I had constant drip in and out and no filters. And I used aragonite in the Rubbermaid the water dripped in on top.
That's what I always tell people the breeding is the easy part. The raising is the hard part. Getting good shape and not
Having die off at 6 weeks . 


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

I have to ask regarding the equilibrium - it sounds more like a mineral additive than a pH balancer .. should I add it or just do slower water changes .. I'm kinda terrified this happens tomorrow


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## cpat83 (Sep 1, 2015)

no idea. I had 6 fry die earlier this year after a few weeks....wasn't a PH swing as suggested as my PH was stable. I believe it was in the food I fed them, believe I may have fed tubifex worms.

No idea, really, anything different in the area that the tank is located in?


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

My water is soft - comes out the tap at around 6.0-6.4 . 
It sits in my Rubbermaid tub for a few hours with the heater and aeration since I have horribly saturated water and reaches about 6.6-6.8 .
There is generally still 2-3inches in that tub when I'm done the water change that I just leave in there - which could be sitting at the 6.0 so it's lowering any new water I add- but how much of a difference would cause the shock?
If I add Kh booster - will that shock them?

There are just so many questions - and I'm really attached to these little guys (it's my first go at discus and I thought I'd done enough research)


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

the pH from the tap is 6.0 - 6.4 (which is actually non potable by most municipal standards, but not uncommon here...) but in the tank it is holding at 7.4?? You say you only add Prime, so no buffer? I bet your test kit is off, or your probe needs calibration, or something. I would think your tank would go through pH drops, severe ones, even overnight, the effect is slowly building up as your filters age with the high bioload. Do you clean the filters every day?, at the time of the waterchange? I am with the others, add Equilibrium, or some other buffer system of your choice. RO remineralizers also work. Watley says you get much better growth/health with baby discus in alkaline pH, so keep it up there, 7.5 - 8.0 would be my choice. I would consider a malawi salt buffer system for these guys. It gets expensive with frequent water changes tho!. Brent


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

Yes definitely better
Growth with minerals as our water is mineral poor. I was told by my discus friend and fantastic breeder long ago to start buffering and getting the hardness up once free swimming gradually for better growth . Equilibrium is by seachem. 



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## davefrombc (Apr 21, 2010)

Abbotsford is not on GVRD water. Where Cstar is, the water could already be medium hard. It should not likely need any hardness buffering. My well water pH comes out of the tap in the low 6's but increases into mid to high 7's as the CO2 gasses off. Hardness here measure +/- 140 ppm out of the tap. 
Cstar. . Have your water tested for hardness. pH is a measure of the acid/ alkalinity of the water, not the hardness.


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Sorry i realized I had a typo in the first post and changed it . It should have said pH is steady at 6.6


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Thank you all for the good advice - i will take a sample of my tap water to my local store to get a full spectrum test done so I know what everything is sitting at.


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

Did you wash your hands and forarms before clean your tank. I once killed entire tank of wild discus and angels when I didn't wash my hands properly after servicing my lawn mower.


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

If the store is using test strips they aren't very accurate. 


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

So had the store check my water 
Tap is 7.6pH
The Discus Tank 6.8PH
KH - 0 

To use the Equilibrium to bring the tank water up to Medium Hardness said it would be 100tspns/1600g (which would get expensive quick) so i bought some pH down - that ended in a whoops . I added half a dose than recommended and the pH bottomed to 6.0 (AAAAHHHH!!!!) so I added baking soda to try bring it back up and I got 7.4 (tears of frustration at this point) so I spent close to 4 hours slowly dripping the water in to slowly acclimate them to the new pH.
Some troubles i think I may have caused myself - the filter was a crappy petsmart one that I think just accumulated the debris and leeched it back into the tank. Scrapped that - bought a sponge filter like they were being bred with. Have become extremely pedantic about small feedings and siphoning everything.

Question - if Discus in a 20gallon tank need 90% daily changes - would the same discus in an 80gallon get by with just 10% daily changes ? With a sponge filter and Fluval canister running.


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Just had a discus freak out - dart like crazy around the tank - right into a wall and dead ... my day just can't improve


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## catgoldfish (Apr 21, 2010)

Sounds like a ph swing. Discus darting around and banging and into the glass. Discus like consistent ph. I have a tank at 7.2 and one tank at 6.5. If you keep it consistent your discus should be good. Using ph down then baking soda right after that is brutal for discus. I find smaller frequent water changes work better for my discus. I do 1/3 of the water every day rather than 50% every other day. When you find some system that works for you stick to it. Discus like consistency in water chemistry. I also find when your discus don't look so good just increase water changes. Not the amount but how often. Maybe twice a day. Just don't throw in meds or baking soda they'll throw off the ph.


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

The ph down and baking Soda went into my aging barrel - but yes agreed stability is key. 
My water is so soft though


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

Rick has a number of good sticky articles on raising discus fry (like the gas bubble issue, and others), I don't know where they are, but I am sure they could be found with minimal looking, maybe in his forum section. Good luck. Brent


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

Put them in a big tank and cordon them off in a small space somehow so they get the benefit of stable water and feel secure in a tight group. I'd ditch the canister, hang o filter and just do the sponge . Go
Buy some aragonite and add some to the tank and your wc barrel. Anymore shock and they will get behind on growth and shape . 


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## lebon (Oct 8, 2012)

90% daily water changes seem excessive to me. Is this needed? Does the water quality get that bad in such a short time? Typically the fish do get stressed every time you do a water change, so perhaps doing less is better? ie: less stress, less possible water differences ie: ph, etc.  just my opinion.


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

For good growth and shape yes. And 4 feedings at least a day they do create a lot of biolaod.
The 20 gallon is too small now. Water is t staying stable . Too many swings .


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Thanks April , I've got a biowheel attachment for my Magnum so will swap that over . I've got an 80gallon they can go in - and was reading that if I throw some driftwood and decorations and they have some spaces to hide they'll feel more secure . 
Will try out the Aragonite . 18 2"baby discus in an 80gallon should still maintain growth with 2 water changes a week?? Any advice - 90% change in the 20 should equal 2 changes a week in an 80 gallon?


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## aprilsaquarium (Aug 22, 2016)

Sure but don't add much driftwood etc or harder to clean Un eaten food. Better bb. Just be sure to vacuum uneaten food and wipe walls as bacteria grows on the glass


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## Canadian_Aqua_Farm (Apr 21, 2010)

Based on the info provided and since the problem occurred suddenly during a water change my first thought would be if any of the parameters were significantly different between the old and new water. A sudden and significant change in temperature, PH or ionized ammonia level could cause shock/poisoning.

A temperature change of 86F to 84F wouldn't be enough to do it. So based on those numbers I wouldn't suspect this to have been the problem. 

A PH swing of 0.5 or more could be a problem. The PH will drop between water changes, this is normal. The more fish excrement and food waste in the tank the faster the PH will drop. A build up of waste in the substrate (not a problem here) or filter media will expedite the PH drop. This is the main reason that all of my tanks are bare bottom and filtered only with sponge filters that can easily be swapped out daily for clean/dry sponges. 

Another possibility is ammonia poisoning. Ammonia exists in two forms. Ionized ammonia (not toxic) and unionized ammonia (toxic). How much of each type of ammonia is present in our tanks depends on the PH level. At a PH below 7.0 ammonia is mostly present in it's non toxic ionized form. As the PH rises above 7.0 the ammonia will start converting to it's toxic un-ionized form. Based on the PH numbers from the pet store testing (aquarium water 6.8 and tap water 7.6) here is a theory on what may have happened. There was a high level of ammonia present in the aquarium prior to your water change (this is normal in discus fry tanks). The ammonia was primarily in it's non toxic form due to the PH being around 6.8 You removed 90% of the water and began to fill the tank will water from the rubbermaid container at PH 7.6 As a result of the PH in the tank increasing a significant amount of ammonia that was present in the 10% old water remaining in the tank was converted to it's toxic form and poisoned/shocked the discus. If this was the case then the PH increase of 0.8 would also have been an additional shock on the fry. 

My suggestion would be to keep the fry in the 20 gallon tank, change to a sponge filter and remove any other filters. Monitor the PH level closely and change the water prior to the PH dropping by 0.4 In order to limit the PH drop between water changes concentrate on keeping the tank as clean as possible. Small frequent feedings of clean food that the discus will finish completely in 5-10 minutes. Freeze dried black worms and frozen bloodworms are the best foods for this in my experience, live grindal worms and white worms are also excellent. Flakes, pellets and home made beef heart or seafood will have a more negative impact on the water. Continue aging your water and change as close to 100% of the water at each water change as possible. Clean the sponge filter thoroughly each day. Even better is to have a spare sponge for each filter so that you can wash and dry the dirty sponge, rotating a clean/dry one into the tank daily. Wipe down all surfaces inside the tank including airlines, heater etc before each water change. Putting the fry into the 80 gallon tank using the same technique described above would be ok but it becomes a much bigger job for water changes and aging 80G of water is not practical for many hobbyists. On the upside you could probably go longer between water changes on the 80G as the PH would drop slower. Limiting the amount of bacteria growth in the fry tank is also important and this is done through the methods described above of small but frequent feedings, wiping the surfaces and daily cleaning of the sponge filter. Everyone develops their own technique for raising fry that works for them, this method is what I have had good success with and hopefully it can help you.


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## Cstar_BC (Sep 24, 2016)

Thanks Rick .

I have had to set up a makeshift hospital bed for my one big guy who today has been dark, and having major buoyancy problems .
Everybody else seems fine - I have stopped feeding the beefheart and am switching from black worm to bloodworm


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