# low kh in lowermainland



## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

so tap water ph is 6.6 kh is close to 0 gh is close to 0. what do you all other fish keepers do to keep ph from fluctuating due to very low kh.? do you add buffers to bump up kh values thus increasing ph a little or is reguar water changes enough to keep ph in check? if u do add buffers do u also add buffers during water changes to match the kh and ph of the tank? pretty new so any advice is greatly appreciated!!! i know everyone living in the lowermainland has very similar water to mine so wanting to know what the majority of you all out there do to deal with this problem


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Have a look at this thread: http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/island-pets-unlimited-42/water-supply-issue-lower-mainland-715/


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## MadgicBug (Apr 22, 2010)

I've noticed that the PH from the tap has dropped over winter. The Depending on what you are keeping, but most people use Equilibrium to pump the KH\GH up. Some people use crushed coral in the filter, a little aggranite in the substate, etc.

If you do a search on the forum, there has been many dicussions on it and fixes.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

just remember that the crushed coral doesn't do much to the hardness unless you have co2, and even then it doesn't do much to the GH. I've converted to Equilibrium after using crushed coral for ages and i'm loving the stability, afterall hardness shifts kills more than ph shifts.


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## TomC (Apr 21, 2010)

My problem has been that using equilibrium and alkaline buffer to raise kh and gh has boosted my ph too high. Anyone have a remedy for this?


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

co2 is really the easiest way to lower PH, but there are other means like PH down and what not. Some run with peat in their filters.

Just how high are you boosting the alkaline? If you do weekly water changes of 50%, you do not need much KH at all to limit the PH swings, Only need around 3 degrees ( 55ish ppm ). CO2 is where you need 4 or 5 degrees KH to protect from ph crashes


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

This thread just made my day!


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## MadgicBug (Apr 22, 2010)

TomC said:


> My problem has been that using equilibrium and alkaline buffer to raise kh and gh has boosted my ph too high. Anyone have a remedy for this?


You should not need the alkaline buffer with equilibrium unless you are tweaking or for for high PH fish\inverts or use them both at once.

Best to just use the equilibrium for the water change, then test your KH\GH a couple of hours or next day. If your GH is OK then you can tweak your KH buy using the buffer very little at a time each day.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

equilibrium is GH only, little KH is better than no KH. You need something to buffer against sudden PH swings to some extent. i use baking soda personally, but thats frowned upon by many aswell

Doesn't cost much either considering how long it lasts


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

the sulphate in equilibrium will raise pH. However, sulphate is not a buffer and *does not* raise kH. This is playing with ion exchange in the chemical make up of the water.

Ion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ION EXCHANGE CHEMISTRY AND OPERATION

EDIT: sulphate is not a Carbonate buffer.


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## MadgicBug (Apr 22, 2010)

There is a degree of KH in equilibrium more so than say Sera mineral salts....the problem is when you add both at once "say in a bucket" and depending on how much, prior to a water changes, it may cause preciptation of Ca and Mg. 

The KH\buffering capacity alone in equilibrium will spike up enough of the PH. Depending on much of each is being used. The big factor is the existing water condition, how dirty the filters are, etc. that can use up the KH.

Baking soda is OK if you are experinced enough to use it, its like using acid to move your PH down. Also there is a sodium component to it which some ppl don't like.

The main thing is not to adjust the water condition over a period of time so there is no drastic drop or spike then drop.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Equilibrium can raise KH slightly but in a fish only aquarium, usually a little Alkalinity buffer is needed to bring it up a little more. We only recommend Equilibrium for planted systems as there are other nutrients in there that will benefit algae if there are no plants. I think that is where some of the confusion is coming from.


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## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Equilibrium can raise KH slightly but in a fish only aquarium, usually a little Alkalinity buffer is needed to bring it up a little more. We only recommend Equilibrium for planted systems as there are other nutrients in there that will benefit algae if there are no plants. I think that is where some of the confusion is coming from.


ok so i posted the thread on low kh and flutuating ph... so you suggested that i up the gh to around 4 and kh to 4 using marine salt and seachem alkaline buffer. this would stabilize my ph to 7.4. i bought the buffer from your richmond location so my question is everytime i do a waterchange do i add in marine salt and seachem alkaline buffer to the new tap water so that it levels off ph to 7.4 and kh and gh at 4. then by adding this new water to the tank during weekly water changes it will help keep kh and gh at 4 and ph at 7.4? sorry if these questions make me sound like a super noob!


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Every water change, treat the water before its in the tank is what i do. I figured out what i need to add per bucket and fill it with tap water to the same line every time. This way the water is always the same going into the tank, and its safe to assume the water in the tank won't be far off the mark.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

travistiale said:


> ok so i posted the thread on low kh and flutuating ph... so you suggested that i up the gh to around 4 and kh to 4 using marine salt and seachem alkaline buffer. this would stabilize my ph to 7.4. i bought the buffer from your richmond location so my question is everytime i do a waterchange do i add in marine salt and seachem alkaline buffer to the new tap water so that it levels off ph to 7.4 and kh and gh at 4. then by adding this new water to the tank during weekly water changes it will help keep kh and gh at 4 and ph at 7.4? sorry if these questions make me sound like a super noob!


Correct. Just think of it as whatever mineral content you remove you want to replace.


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## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Correct. Just think of it as whatever mineral content you remove you want to replace.


hey grant, on the seachem website it says to use alkaline buffer with seachem acid buffer if our water is soft which it is... so do i have to use the acid buffer with alkaline buffer to achieve kh4 and a ph 7.2 as you stated? or is adding 1 tsp of alkaline buffer per 10 gallons of our lowermainland water enough to achieve kh4 and ph 7.2


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## jassz (Dec 24, 2010)

There seems to be two threads going on this topic.

What is it that creates a healthy environment for snails? Is it calcium? Would they get that from shells or coral? (sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but it's kind of related).


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## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

travistiale said:


> hey grant, on the seachem website it says to use alkaline buffer with seachem acid buffer if our water is soft which it is... so do i have to use the acid buffer with alkaline buffer to achieve kh4 and a ph 7.2 as you stated? or is adding 1 tsp of alkaline buffer per 10 gallons of our lowermainland water enough to achieve kh4 and ph 7.2


also grant... wouldn't using seahem neutral regulator be better? it says it keeps the water at ph 7.0 from either a low or high ph and maintains it there. and it also conditions the water removing chlorine and chloramines... so wouldnt using this be a better option than using seachem alkaline buffer?


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

travistiale said:


> hey grant, on the seachem website it says to use alkaline buffer with seachem acid buffer if our water is soft which it is... so do i have to use the acid buffer with alkaline buffer to achieve kh4 and a ph 7.2 as you stated? or is adding 1 tsp of alkaline buffer per 10 gallons of our lowermainland water enough to achieve kh4 and ph 7.2


You would only use the acid buffer if you want to achieve a specific pH while increasing your hardness. In our experience, raising your KH to 3 or 4 will not impact your pH increase by much. If you want a lightly acidic pH like 6.8, the acid buffer is the option. This topic tends to be hard enough to get across however without adding another product to the mix.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

travistiale said:


> also grant... wouldn't using seahem neutral regulator be better? it says it keeps the water at ph 7.0 from either a low or high ph and maintains it there. and it also conditions the water removing chlorine and chloramines... so wouldnt using this be a better option than using seachem alkaline buffer?


Neutral Regulator only regulates pH, not hardness. It does not contribute to hardness at all. In fact, it works by binding with free calcium in the water, free calcium that our tap water does not have. Neutral Regulator would be more similar to Acid Buffer except it is set at a pH of 7.0.


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## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Neutral Regulator only regulates pH, not hardness. It does not contribute to hardness at all. In fact, it works by binding with free calcium in the water, free calcium that our tap water does not have. Neutral Regulator would be more similar to Acid Buffer except it is set at a pH of 7.0.


so is carbonate hardness important to fish??? i thought carbonate hardness was important because it resists changes to ph. if neutral regulator resists fluctuations in ph better than alkaline buffer wouldnt this be better to use? isnt the main purpose of carbonate hardness in an aquarium is to avoid ph crashes??? doesnt neutral regulator do this?


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

travistiale said:


> so is carbonate hardness important to fish??? i thought carbonate hardness was important because it resists changes to ph. if neutral regulator resists fluctuations in ph better than alkaline buffer wouldnt this be better to use? isnt the main purpose of carbonate hardness in an aquarium is to avoid ph crashes??? doesnt neutral regulator do this?


As I stated previously, Neutral Regulator doe not really work like it is supposed to because of our water issues and the lack of Calcium and other minerals. All captive raised aquarium fish are raised in medium to high hardness world wide. Putting fish in water like ours with a KH of 0 is a big shock. Florida has a KH of 14! Adjusting ones hardness not only creates a stable pH but also brings the hardness to a more average level that fish are used to.


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## rc604 (May 2, 2010)

Coral chunks work for me...nice consistent buffer, no need to add stuff during water changes.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

rc604 said:


> Coral chunks work for me...nice consistent buffer, no need to add stuff during water changes.


Coral Chunks do nothing for osmoregulation. Nothing. There has been enough members on here that have come to realize that to prove that it is so. Of course anyone who would rather not heed this advice can continue on their path, however this is a forum dedicated to the aquarium hobby and encourages ones to succeed to the best of their ability. There are no buffer police, but there are a large amount of fish dying in this province due to low mineral content. This is fact, not theory. It looks like you are a new member here. It took us over 10 years to figure this out so learn from our mistakes and your fish will be healthier for it.


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## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Coral Chunks do nothing for osmoregulation. Nothing. There has been enough members on here that have come to realize that to prove that it is so. Of course anyone who would rather not heed this advice can continue on their path, however this is a forum dedicated to the aquarium hobby and encourages ones to succeed to the best of their ability. There are no buffer police, but there are a large amount of fish dying in this province due to low mineral content. This is fact, not theory. It looks like you are a new member here. It took us over 10 years to figure this out so learn from our mistakes and your fish will be healthier for it.


ive been reading up on this a bit more..so doesnt osmoregulation have to do with Ca ions and Mg ions and no carbonate ions? if coral chips regulate pH and keep it stable then wouldnt adding minerals raising gH such as Ca and Mg not enough? i believe fish don't directly benefit from CO3 ions, it only benefits fish indirectly by keeping pH stable by absorbing excess acid (H+ ions) from DOC's and the nitrogen cycle in the water column and resulting in water and carbon dioxide? so if i use coral chips to keep pH stable at 7.5 and add seachem equilibrium to bump gH to 5-6 wouldnt this work?


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Personally i found KH buffering great with crushed coral ONLY if you inject CO2 (or never change your water). I used to swear by KH, but when i stopped my co2 and went full metricide, i assumed it was still doing the same, rastapus convinced me to test my parameters in chat one day, and the results were around 2 degrees of KH with an ac30 jam packed with crushed coral on a 10 gallon.

As for GH, i came from the planted tank forums, GH is never mentioned because it is assumed the water source atleast had some hardness. EI dosing did provide many nutrients for the fish so it did limit the losses, but in my non planted tanks common "impossible" to kill fish like guppies would just die. I had several purchases of otto cats, with like 80% die off because the difference of GH from the LFS to my home tanks was just too much to take in a day. When i finally listened to rasta's advice and went for a GH booster, i had 0 fish die while being acclimated to my tanks.

Now with crushed coral even in planted tanks, it works, but fish can still be stressed, its not usually the PH swings that kill fish, its the Hardness Swing, that is why guppies die so easily in the lower mainland. With crushed coral you are giving your fish a KH swing, sometimes very significant each week depending on your co2 injection levels. People use crushed coral because its seen as a set it and forget it motion, but in vancouver you are already supposed to be adding boosters to the water for GH when you do your changes. Why not toss the coral and use a KH booster aswell, whether its Kent's RO, or baking soda. Leave the crushed coral for cichlid tanks


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

travistiale said:


> ive been reading up on this a bit more..so doesnt osmoregulation have to do with Ca ions and Mg ions and no carbonate ions? if coral chips regulate pH and keep it stable then wouldnt adding minerals raising gH such as Ca and Mg not enough? i believe fish don't directly benefit from CO3 ions, it only benefits fish indirectly by keeping pH stable by absorbing excess acid (H+ ions) from DOC's and the nitrogen cycle in the water column and resulting in water and carbon dioxide? so if i use coral chips to keep pH stable at 7.5 and add seachem equilibrium to bump gH to 5-6 wouldnt this work?


GH is the leading factor in osmoregulation. KH levels should be adjusted because no large scale captive aquarium fish that I am aware of are grown in conditions of 0 KH. Going from a KH of say 8 dKH to 0 will without doubt, stress fish. Florida is as high as 14 dKH. The amazon has a KH average of 3, what we have is rain. Equilibrium you mentioned does raise KH somewhat as well but if you do not have plants you are likely adding other nutrients that if plants are not there, will promote algae growth. I would have to confirm this but I find it likely.


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## travistiale (Dec 14, 2010)

are fish using bicarbonate ions? im confused sorry if i seem to be asking same question but if the fish aren't taking up bicarbonate ions then what difference does it make if we have a 0 concentration of it. If the pH is stable from either crushed coral or say a phophate based buffer than and gH is supplemented than isnt that good enough?


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

travistiale said:


> are fish using bicarbonate ions? im confused sorry if i seem to be asking same question but if the fish aren't taking up bicarbonate ions then what difference does it make if we have a 0 concentration of it. If the pH is stable from either crushed coral or say a phophate based buffer than and gH is supplemented than isnt that good enough?


Again, fish are raised in harder water. Our water is as soft as rain water. Wild fish are only exposed to conditions similar during the breeding season when there are heavy rains. Captive bred fish are likely never subject to this condition except in parts of BC and Seattle. Exotic Goldfish for example are a great example. When we kept crushed coral in their system, we always used salt. Even though we had a higher GH, we always had problems with them on and off. Once we raised the KH, the problems virtually disappeared. It is more about the transition from a standard living condition to a very abnormal one which will have profound effects on the fish. KH does not help Osmoregulation but it's level being somewhat consistent with what they are raised in is key. If our levels were even similar it would not be an issue, but 0 compared to the average 8, fish cant tolerate it for the most part. Yes GH is the bigger issue here, but KH plays an important role as well. Other things to consider is toxicity of some medications in very soft water. I don't like dwelling on chemistry as much as the next guy but there are many other factors that are made negative by our low hardness. Good point though.

Just found this.......

KH is basically the alkaline buffering capacity of your aquarium (there also is an opposite acid buffering process which when combined with KH is important for planted aquariums or low pH aquariums; see pH/Amazon River Section), a KH above 50 ppm helps prevent sudden drops in pH. KH (carbonate hardness) is an important source of energy for nitrifying bacteria that eliminate ammonia and nitrite. In addition, carbonates are used by plants for photosynthesis when carbon dioxide (CO2) is absent.
KH (Carbonate) buffering is especially important with Livebearers, Goldfish, East African Cichlids (Rift Lake), Brackish and many other freshwater fish (which should have an even higher KH over 100-150 or more).


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

I was thinking about this a little more. The benefits to plants is obvious but the fact that KH aids in the biological process is very interesting. I can connect this with issues in the past as well. The medication toxicity is an important issue to get across as well as many meds are very toxic to fish in extremely soft water. 
To sum it up, there are no disadvantages to increasing your KH from 0, only advantages. If anyone is resisting for reasons of a small investment or that it seems like too much work it's not. If coral was a quick fix to this problem, believe me I would promote just that. IPU tries to keep things simple when it comes to maintenance advice. Explaining the buffering system to the average customer is no easy task and if we did not feel it is the most important revelation of health in FW fish in BC, we would not be spending this much effort and time pushing it. Thanks to those who have realized there is something very important to this.


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## rc604 (May 2, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> It looks like you are a new member here.


On the new forum yes, but I actually originally joined originally in '04 before it was hacked.

Also, what does being a 'new' member have to do with anything? New to the forum doesn't mean new to fish keeping. Before you go on preaching about how to properly care for my fish, why don't you do something about that poor Motoro crammed in that tiny tank in your BBY store.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

rc604 said:


> On the new forum yes, but I actually originally joined originally in '04 before it was hacked.
> 
> Also, what does being a 'new' member have to do with anything? New to the forum doesn't mean new to fish keeping. Before you go on preaching about how to properly care for my fish, why don't you do something about that poor Motoro crammed in that tiny tank in your BBY store.


What I meant by that in the centre if my reply was that this awareness has only really come to light the last year or so.
Since you bring it up, that "poor Motoro" "crammed" in that "tiny" tank is very healthy. He came originally from a customer who passed away and the only one willing to take it was us. After paying all the shipping we housed him for a number of years and now have him up for sale. His aquarium is 36" front to back and 30" across, it is also connected to a 2500 gallon system so rest assured his water quality is very good. What would you like us to do with it? It is available for sale and hopefully will go to a good home soon. We even went as far as looking into shipping it to a breeder in South America.

Just trying to help, sorry you would rather judge me for something completely unrelated. I will ensure I explain every comment in detail in the future. Not sure why I am getting such a response, thanks again for the attack though.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

I've never used coral in my tanks, which are freshwater. I use Equilibrium or sometimes Replenish or Fluval Shrimp Minerals for gh.

I hear people talking about adding coral to their filter or tanks and I've always wondered what this does for freshwater fish. Does coral raise gh? If not, what is it used for?

I've had fish for more than 30 years and you'd think that I would know something like this, but I guess I just never paid attention.



Rastapus said:


> Coral Chunks do nothing for osmoregulation. Nothing. There has been enough members on here that have come to realize that to prove that it is so. Of course anyone who would rather not heed this advice can continue on their path, however this is a forum dedicated to the aquarium hobby and encourages ones to succeed to the best of their ability. There are no buffer police, but there are a large amount of fish dying in this province due to low mineral content. This is fact, not theory. It looks like you are a new member here. It took us over 10 years to figure this out so learn from our mistakes and your fish will be healthier for it.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

corals, roughly put it, is calcium carbonate. For this to dissolved fast enough, acidity is needed <7 pH. This is where the inconsistency comes into play. If your water is normally pH 7 and up, corals does not dissolved, but if you run this in planted tank, the pH, in a lot of cases in BC, is <7. so corals will keep on dissolving. A lot of planted folks do 50% water change on a weekly basis. I am not exactly sure where the 50% water change for planted tank started, but I know with EI method, 50% water change is done to reset the parameter at the end of each cycle. 

Kind of the same I guess for discus keeper doing 50-100% water change daily.


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## Morainy (Apr 21, 2010)

Thank you, Edge! You are always so informative!



EDGE said:


> corals, roughly put it, is calcium carbonate. For this to dissolved fast enough, acidity is needed <7 pH. This is where the inconsistency comes into play. If your water is normally pH 7 and up, corals does not dissolved, but if you run this in planted tank, the pH, in a lot of cases in BC, is <7. so corals will keep on dissolving. A lot of planted folks do 50% water change on a weekly basis. I am not exactly sure where the 50% water change for planted tank started, but I know with EI method, 50% water change is done to reset the parameter at the end of each cycle.
> 
> Kind of the same I guess for discus keeper doing 50-100% water change daily.


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