# Angel Pair has spawned!!!



## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Hi, I am new to BCAquaria and this is my first post in this forum. 

I have a breeding pair of angel fish, in a 10G breeder tank, and they spawned about 3 days ago. I know the tank is way too small for the breeding pair, but that is all I had as a spare tank. I am hoping to move them into a 20Ga tank soon. The mother is fanning and protecting the eggs and dad is overseeing the eggs as well. I can start to see tails forming and I suspect they will be wigglers soon. The water temperature is 80F, and there is a AQ30 hob filter set to low and with a sponge prefilter on the intake tube. I also have a sponge filter as well. Moreover, I have a large Marina breeder box set up on the back of the 10G tank, with a small 40gph power head pump set to low to move water from the 10G tank into the breeder box. It works very well. I have a sponge in the marina box outflow area to prevent fry from being pushed out of the breeder box and into the 10G tank. Problem is the water temp in the breeder box is only about 76-77F, which is about 3-4F cooler than the 10 tank. I was originally planning to use a turkey baster and suck up the eggs and soon to be wigglers into the breeder box, but I am concerned about the temperature differential. I don't have a small heat to put inside the 0.5Gal marina breeder box. I was hoping by putting the eggs/wigglers inside the breeder box, it would be easier to feed the fry, and less change of the parents eating them. I am also feeding generously pellets to the parents so that they don't get hungry and consider the fry snack.

If I had the angel pair in a 20G tank, I would have taken the breeding slate with the fertilized eggs out and moved the eggs into the breeder box that would be hanging on the 10G tank and just raise the heat on the 10G tank to 85-86F and account for the temperature differential in the hob breeder box so that the breeder box temp would be 80F, like it is in the 20G breeder tank. But that is not the case now, so I have to make do with what I have now to ensure a successful fry hatch.

Do you guys/gals think I should chance, moving the eggs/wigglers into the breeder box even though it would be 3-4F cooler? 
Should I just leave the wigglers with the parents. I only have Hikari first bites and I am not sure if the 10G tank is too large for the fry that they would have a hard time finding food. I suspect it would be a lot easier with feeding for the fry and for myself doing it in the breeder box. 

What do you think of my approach, and do you have any suggestions that I may try to ensure a success in breeding the angels.

Thanks and all the best


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Oh, I also forgot to mention that the tank is bare bottom, with a few pieces of hornwort plants floating about.
Thanks.


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## Jousters (Jan 16, 2014)

Are you able to put the parents in the 20 gallon tank?I would leave the babies in the 10 gallon and put sponge over your intake.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Thanks for your post Jousters,

I don't have the 20G yet, that is the problem. I already have sponges over the intake, but the problem is that the angel pairs are big poopers. I have to use a siphon to get rid of the poop at the bottom of the tank, but every time, I stick the siphon in the tank, it freaks and stresses the angel pair. They may end up eating the eggs or wigglers. I usually do 10-25 percent weekly water changes, so I have using the 10G as a sump for the breeder box, makes it a lot easier for me to do maintain and clean the water and not risk having the parents eat the wigglers/fry. 

Thoughts?


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Just an update. So I got a 20G during the long weekend, and go it setup. I drained about 5 gal from 3 established tank while doing my weekly water change and put the water in the new 20G tank, and used dechlorinated water for the balance. Transferred the parent angels into the 20G tank because I noticed the mother eating the free swimmers. I pulled the HOB filter off the 10G and put it on the new 20G tank.

So I have about 150-200 +- free swimmers in the 10G tank. I am using two sponge filters and leave the led lights on most of the day. A lot of green algae has grown in the 10G tank. Water is greenish. Is that good? I have been using Hikari first bites and so far no dead fry. I use a turkey baster and mix the Hikari with some aquarium water and squirt the first bites towards the fry clusters. I am not sure if the fry are eating the Hikari or if there are infusoria growing in the tank and they are eating that. I used the turkey baster and squirted into the tank and a lot of tiny miniscule things floating in the water. Perhaps the angel fries are eating them? Whatever it is, the fry have gotten a bit larger and are faster swimmers. 

I did a 15% water change today. How, often should I do partial water changes in the fry tank? Daily, every 2 days, .... ? 

Is it ok to have the algae growing in the fry tank. I have read online that it is good to have green water for baby fish fry. Would that be the case? 

Thanks for any advice.

all the best


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Oh one other thing I forgot to mention. I notice a white cloudy webbish cluster forming on top of the areas where the First Bites have fallen onto the bottom of the tank. I read that that whitish cloudy mass might be bacteria bloom, but infusoria feed off the bacteria bloom. What are your thoughts. I figured if that is the case, let it happen, and let more infusoria grow, so that the angel fry can eat the infusoria. 

Thoughts?


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

the white webbish cluster may be a fungus, or mold, it really sounds like you are over feeding the fry here, especially with the green water. you might consider cutting the light back, 12 hours a day is lots. you can observe the fry bellies to see if they are eating, fat bellies equals eating, greyish belly means mostly eating infusoria. pink bellies for baby brine shrimp. I would get on the bottom siphoning, I would do 25% a day. temperature is pretty important to keep constant, but not really vital, as long as it is close, a few degrees change when doing the water change is ok I have found. Green water/algae is not really a problem, I actually like it as I don't have to feed the fry nearly as much.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Thanks for your post mollyb. 

It is more of a transparent/translucent white cloudy webbish cluster along the bottom of the tank. It is not an opaque white mass growth. 
The fries have grown to about 3mm length body, not including the tails. The tails about 3mm length as well. They must be eating something, as there are no dead fry on the bottom of the bare bottom tank. Their bellies seem full as they are about grey/black in color.

I will do a daily 10-25% partial water change and focus on the siphoning the bottom webbish growth. 

I suspected I was overfeeding. I will feed less. I am currently feeding 5 times per day. Is that ok? 
Thoughts? 

thanks and all the best


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Oh, I forgot to mention, the temperature is pretty constant at 80F.


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

I was referring to the temperature of the new water change water, the white stuff is likely fungus, 5 x a day is way too much. I usually get by with 2 x. also, feed less each time, I scatter the food on the surface, it sinks at different rates, so it elongates the available feeding time (time in water column) for the fry.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

I started to feed the fry boiled egg yolk, and they love it. I can see their swollen whitish bellies and their bellies are plump. I cut down the feeding to 2x/day. The fry are swimming faster and are growing. The reason I switched to egg yolk is because I don't think the fry are big enough to eat the Hikari First Bites.


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

it is all about food size for fry. Amazingly, it is easier to feed the fry when you leave the parents with them, usually you don't have to specifically target the fry as the parents leftovers is often enough. having said that, BBS is always a great addition, but don't over do it.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

So an update. The babies are getting bigger. Unfortunately the larger fry are eating and injuring the smaller fry. Survival of the fittest I suppose. I think I started out with about 150 +- fries. I am down to about 50 +-. The survivor's are more aggressive and very lively.


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

I have not seen this type of canibalism in fry, of really any sort, but particularly with angels. more likely the weaker ones are dying and the stronger ons just picking on the carcasses. Maybe time for more water changes.


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## VElderton (Jun 3, 2015)

I have found raising angel fry is really rewarding. 

Check out the web-site from Angels Plus if you have not already. These folks are experts with great informational videos. 

A lot that you are doing is seems to be working for you so do what you are having success with. Each breeder tweaks things a bit to fit their preference and equipment. I won't be too worried about only having 50 healthy fry ... you'll have to grow them to a body size of about an inch (20 mm) before selling them and a 20 G grow out is good for that. I have also found Angels are not easy to sell unless you have an exceptional strain ... mine usually sell for $2 a fish when they are about 25 cent size. 

Here's a few things I do that have been successful. 

1) Raise fish in tanks around 77 - 80 degrees with soft water and a pH close to neutral 7

2) Filtration is a good size aged sponge filter or Matten filter + AC HOB filter that is rated at least 3 x the water volume of the tank with Hydroton + Biohome media. This filtration is probably overkill but it reduces my maintenance a lot and means I can skip water changes every once in awhile. 

3) Set up my grow tank with a little substrate with young plecos and dwarf corys like Habrosas ... this helps with extra food clean-up ... reduces my maintenance 

4) I remove wigglers from parents unless parents are really great at raising their own fry ... some pairs some are great, some are not

5) Transfer wigglers with a turkey baseter to a 2 - 5 G tank with floating plants, plecos and corys for the first 4 weeks ... usually the wigglers attach themselves to the plants until they are free swimming in a few days

6) Once the fry are looking like mini Angels in 4 - 6 weeks for me I transfer them to a 20 G grow - the 20 G longs are great here as the more surface area the better

7) Live food feeding at least once a day ... micro worms and brine shrimp naupli with a supplement of powdered food throughout the day that I make up my using regular high protein fish flakes and pellet food in a coffee grinder. If I know I can only feed once a day I use gel food cubes and the fry pick at all day at their pace which I like. 

I have not had issues with fry bullying others so agree with other comments you have gotten from your post. If you are seeing ragged fins it's probably water quality rather than bigger fry nipping at smaller fry. 

I am not a super expert with a big operation. I try to raise a couple broods of Angels a year from my parents in a South American community tank. From what I have learnt from real experts like April and Karen at April's Aquarium and websites like Angels Plus is it's water changes that are the most important and having the food size that works for the size of the fish as they are growing. 

Hope this helps - good luck, maybe we can trade Angel juveniles one day :bigsmile:


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Thanks for your posts mollyb and VElderton. Those are very insightful posts. The fries don't have ragged fins. I actually saw some of the larger fries, chasing the smaller ones and actually eat it. If it can't swallow it the first time, it goes for a second kill and gulps it down. If the prey fry can't be swallowed and manages to get away, it soon dies because it looks like it gets injured. A few of the very aggressive larger fries will go at the prey 3-4 times, trying to swallow it. It was very odd to see to say the least. The smallest of the fries hide in the floating hornwort plants. I have been doing 20% water changes daily and there are two big sponge filters and hornwort plants in the 10G fry tank. The surviving fries seem to be doing well. I feed them with a combination of first bites, and also use a mortar and pestle and grind cichlid pellets, flakes, or dried krill into a tiny bite size morsels. They seem to like the grounded up dried krill. I thought about doing a brine hatchery but I just don't have the time for that. Maybe in the future. That is interesting about the gel food cubes, I have seen this in some youtube videos when they put them in a Marina breeder box. I am not sure where to get those gel cubes. If you guys could point me in the right direction, that would be much appreciated. The largest of the lot seem to be eating the algae. They are always pecking and tearing at the algae growth along the walls of tank, walls of the breeding slate, and the hornwort plants. 

I have a spare 25G, in anticipation and planning ahead for the grow tank. When the fries get to about a dime size, I will probably move them from the 10G fry tank to the 25G grow tank. I do intent to put gravel substrate and some albino cory cats in them, and hornwort plants. I have 2 cory albino cats in my other 15G tank and they are wonderful cleaners for uneaten flakes that fall to the bottom of the tank. I am going to shut down my 15G tank and move those fishes to the 36G community tank and move the 2 albino cory's to the 25G grow tank. I hope the albino cory's don't attack or try to eat the dime or smaller size angel fries. 

Well, my breeder angels spawned again about 2 weeks ago. I was going to let the parents rear the fry and see how they do. I wanted them to develop parenting skills. Also, I was afraid if I put the newly swimming fries into the 10G tank, the larger fries may eat the new tiny fries. One morning I woke up and the eggs were all gone. I thought the parents ate them because I didn't notice wigglers the other day. Just today, as I was doing my weekly water change for the breeder tank, I noticed about 50 free swimming fries in the tank in a cluster. I was wondering why the mother was acting so strange lately as she was so guarded and attentive. I haven't even fed the fry. I have to admit, I haven't been paying much attention to the breeding pair. So today, I put some first bite, and some finely grounded up dried krill in the 20G breeder tank. Luckily I had put a sponge pre-filter over the AC30 about 2 weeks ago, when the pair spawned again. I am going to see how the parents rear the fry and what the success rate is going to be with them doing it naturally as opposed to me doing it in a separate fry tank. 

Boy, I didn't expect it was going to be so much work breeding these angels, and the extra tanks needed as well. One really has to love this hobby to do it. :0).

all the best and thanks for reading and participating in this thread.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

So am update. The parents ended up eating all the new fries in the breeding tank. OH well. 
The baby angel fry are doing well in the 10G tank, though.

all the best.


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## VElderton (Jun 3, 2015)

Sorry to hear ... as mentioned some angel pairs are great at raising their young ... others not so good.


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## Fedaykin (Oct 20, 2016)

Not too useful to you now, however algae rich tanks are great for new free-swimmers eating their first organisms (especially so with smaller species). I had green water I couldn't see through. If it got too bad I did water changes to reduce it. I was paranoid my first round and couldn't shut the light off. I always kept blue LEDs going once I was trying to combat algae a bit.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Thanks for your post Fedaykin. Yes, the 10G fry tank has a lot of algae. I think the daily water changes is controlling the algae bloom. Honestly, I am getting tired of the daily water changes so I am going to do PWC every 2 days for that fry tank and eventually move to weekly. I am fine with green water. The surviving fry is fairly resilient. 

VElderton: The next time the breeding pair spawn in a couple of weeks. I am going to move the spawning plate over to the fry tank. 

all the best


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## mollyb (May 18, 2010)

Well, if you are going to take the eggs away from the parents, you may consider putting them into a large jar first, like a plastic pretzel jar, or large pickle jar (cleaned out of course) until the fry get free swimming because you may want to use an antifungal like methylene blue to control fungal attacks on the eggs. All you need is a small heater and an airstone (and air). this method has been done since I was a kid at least (long time ago) and works very well IMHO. Then you can do a couple water changes to dilute/get rid of most of the methylene blue and then easily transfer to your green tank. the fry will thrive in there. Using an antifungal may upset the balance in your green tank. 

I wouldn't give up on your pair, it generally takes a few spawns for them to get it right. maybe try putting a small dither fish in with them to give them a 'cause'.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

So, I noticed the pair spawned again. I actually have HOB Marina breeding box that hangs outside the 10G fry tank. I would like to put the new batch inside that breeding box, but I need to get a small heater to put inside the breeder box, because it only reaches about 74F in there, while the 10G tank is 80F. This way the existing baby angels don't eat the new fry. I have to see about getting a small thermostat controlled heater that would be suitable for a 0.5G Marina Breeder box. Petsmart has some small heaters, but they are not thermostat controlled, which worries me. You guys have an idea? 

thanks
all the best.


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## Fedaykin (Oct 20, 2016)

Insulate your breeding box... Take some tape hold a bunch of fabric or other insulating device.. maybe styrofoam if you make a tight box around it. Try to make an isulated sealed top as well. Should keep your temps up placed near your heater in tank.


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## Fedaykin (Oct 20, 2016)

I began using antifungals but didn't find that my batches we're dying because of fungal in the end.. so I quit using them. Also subsequent batches of fry we're dying after I used them and I still have losses... Unlike my first batch in which every wiggler made it all the way up. The only thing I did on my first success that's still different is my water changes. When I did daily even %25 the first batch I had no loss... Now I haven't been keeping up and still some fry die.. I'm convinced it's water changes..


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

I also am not a fan of antifugal as well. At any rate, the parents ate all the wigglers before I could get a chance to move them out of the tank. So for the record, the parents ate all the eggs the first time they spawned. I removed the eggs the second spawning session and the surviving fry count is about 30 or so, but they are doing well. The parents ate the wigglers after the 3rd and 4th spawning session. I haven't had time to setup the 25G grow tank yet, so I haven't moved the fry from the 10G tank to the 25G. Just been so busy lately. I am going to build a stacker stand and then stack both the 25G and the 29G spare tanks on top of each other to save floor space. After that is done, I am going to cycle the 25G tank before moving the young angels from the 10G to the 25G. I am going to given the parents one last time in rearing the fry themselves and not eat them. If that don't work, I will move the breeding slate from the angel pair after they spawn and raise them without the parents in the 10G fry tank. 

all the best.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

OH I was mistaken. The parents did *not *eat all the wigglers. They actually transferred them from the breeding slate to a big leaf. I just noticed a big batch of wigglers and some free swimmers around the leaf. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention. I noticed both parents swimming around the tank and gathering/sucking free swimmers into their mouths and then spitting them back onto the leaf.


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## Fedaykin (Oct 20, 2016)

Nice! A couple times I've thought them gone and cleaned to find a nest after at another location and I can't believe I didn't suck them up


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

Thought I would post some pics of 3 of my Tanks. Taken from an old Canon SD1100IS point and shoot with auto setting on and flash off. I am not the greatest photographer, but thought I would include some pics so people have a better idea of what I have for these breeding angel pairs.








Green-Fry Tank 10G








Breeding Tank 20G








Grow Tank 25G

all the best


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

So the pair spawned again. I pulled the breeding slate from the pair and put them in the Fry tank. Noticed something interesting. When I pulled the breeding slate, there were 4 eggs with fungus on them. When I put them in the fry tank, the fungi shrunk and disappeared. I thought that more eggs would get infected but the opposite ending up happening. I guess the water condition in the breeding tank needs attention and/or the water condition in the fry tank is favorable. The wigglers should be free swimming soon. The first set of baby angles are doing well in the grow tank. 

On a side note. I felt bad for the mother angel fish when I pulled the breeding slate out. For a couple of days, she was frantically looking all around the tank for her babies. :0(


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

All the wigglers died from the last batch. I am not sure what happened. I can only assume it was water quality. 
I did two 30% PWC over two days and hope that whatever caused the problem in the fry tank is resolved. In the meantime, the pair spawned again, but this time the mother is attacking the father for some reason. She is going no holds bar, full attack on the much bigger male. The male is cowering away in hiding places. I can see the battle scars on the male from damaged scales. Very odd behavior. The mother is really overprotective of her new eggs. Perhaps, she was upset that I removed the breeding slate and eggs from her and placed them in the fry tank the last time, and she is taking it out on the male. Don't know what to make of it. 

I also noticed something weird in the fry tank. I can see tiny white worms swimming around and crawling on the glass. Should I be worried?


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## Fedaykin (Oct 20, 2016)

White worms is pretty vague.. identifying requires microscope. I get little things on my glass.. the wee fry eat them initially... Maybe just a tank critter.. hard to say. Any ideas on fry death?


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

I was thinking the same thing about the tiny worms being potential food source for new fry. Perhaps. I should not be worried. Did another 30% pwc yesterday in the fry tank. 

The mother transferred the eggs/wigglers onto the fake amazon sword plants I have. I guess she wanted to do this before anybody can take the eggs/breeding slate away from her. The male is standing his ground and even retaliating a little bit to try to calm the female down, which is seems to be working. Interesting watching fish behavior. It was just so odd seeing her attack the male so ferociously.

Status of the small angels in the grow tank is good. They are doing well. 

Thanks for reading this thread. All the best.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

*Some pics*

Thought I would post some latest pics of my tanks.








Grow Tank 25 Gallons
They have grown quite a bit.








Green Fry Tank 5 Gallons
New fries.








Breeding Tank 20 Gallons
Striped Dad and Marble Mom and some new wigglers.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

A number of weeks ago, we had a power outage during the night and the water temp for all my tanks dropped 5 degree. The fry tank was where the casualties occurred. I had about 30 young fries in there and lost about 12. 

So the pair spawned again, but this time around, I started feeding the fry microworms. They seem to like it. Hopefully my yield rates will increase. I really don't like using egg yolks as they just foul the water and my yield rate was pretty low. I also have some brine shrimp eggs but the microworms are so easy to cultured that I am going to use microworms for now. I may try to do a hatchery for the brine shrimps later. I picked up another 10G for the new spawned and a 20G Long tank will be set up later for another fry tank. 

The survivors and the new fries got my first culture of microworms and do they ever like it. Yum Yum. 

On live food the fries are growing much faster and are much more active. 

all the best.


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## BoombasticSloth (May 11, 2017)

So to update: The 20 that survived the power outage got transferred from the green/fry tank to the 20G Long and are doing really well. These 20 love the microworms and pellet food.

However, the last fry batch all died when fed the micro worms. Perhaps, the yeast from the microworm culture go too high and ended up killing the fish over time. I used a Q tip and scooped up microworm from the side of the container and went directly into the fry tank. It was weird. Some fry would eat the microworms and get bloated and died while others did not eat the microworm and starved to death. Another thing I noticed is that the microworm would eventually settled to the bottom of the tank and I noticed that the fry would just lay at the bottom of the tank and not bother swimming about. I really wanted the fry to be active swimmers, but they just layed at the bottom of the tank. 

Got another batch of fries last week and I removed them from the parent tank day after they became free swimming. About 10-15 percent of the batch did not survive the transfer from breeding tank to the green/fry tank. Fed them baby brine shrimp. All of the survivors are active swimmers and all are feeding on the BBS. Did daily 25% water changes and put about 15 Malaysian trumpet snails in the green/fry tank to clean the algae, uneaten food, and waste from the bottom. Reduced the air flow from the sponge filter so that the current in the tank was not so great. Between BBS harvests, I did feed microworms but this time I scooped the microworm into a water filled container to dilute some of the yeast and waited for the microworm to settle to the bottom before siphoning them out to feed to the fish fry. However, I mostly feed the fry BBS. They are smaller and easier for the angel fry to eat. Overall, things seem to be doing well. If this works out, this will the largest yield of angel fry as of yet. Have about 150 - 200 +- angel fry. Crossing my fingers they mostly survive. Wish me luck. 

Thanks for reading.


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