# 15 gallon nano for a Saltwater virgin!



## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

I am well aware of stability issues in nanos, but this is and experiment ( no fish or corals yet) the only thing at risk of death here are live rock hitchikers... And oh well. 

I have a 15 gallon tank, with an elite 20 hagon on back filter, I am converting into a 3 stage bio. Foam, charcoal filter, bio max. In the flow order. I have heard arguments over submersable vs hanging heaters, for now i have a stable hanger. 

I plan to use super fine argonite reef sand, with a cup of established live sand blended in to seed ( if its corser I might fill a bag and put in the filter in place of the foam filter. The flow will then carry the good bacteria into the tank. As well 5lbs of base rock and 3-4 of live rock to seed the cycle. Here are a couple questions. 

• do I add my fish and corals so everything cycles at once or do it in stages and risk mini-cycles? 

• i also read you need 1 watt of lights per L of water. That means I need 60 watts of lighting for this 15gallon. Currently i have a single aqua GLO 15watt T8 bulb, but its not ideal for salt?


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

For lighting. I would say it may be a bit low for SW.

I used the following on the 15g planted I just shut down.

Current USA Nova Extreme 24" 2x24W T-5 10,000K - Freshwater : T5 & HO-T5

Compact and nice looking unit. Sits right tight to the glass lid as well so more intensity than something that is raised higher.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Go with coarse, not super fine or sugar fine sand. Every time your powerhead moves the water, the sugar fine will create a "dust storm" in the tank.

I would go T5 or HO-T5 route as opposed to T8 (as Gordon suggests).

For rock, usual is 1 lb per gallon so you're only doing half & only 3 lbs of that is live rock (base rock can be very non-porous - making it virtually useless since the pores are where the bacteria live, not just on the surface). Porous rock is preferable to heavy, non-porous rock for this reason.

If you have time, come on over and we'll talk sw and I can show you my systems.

Anthony


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Yea, I wasnt sure on the lighting. Both the aqua GLO and marine GLO are 18,000k bulbs. Im thinking marine GLO 50/50.

Rock: if you look in my thread " my africans " you can see the type of rock im gunna use as base,I got it from the former fish world. I also have some hawiian reef rock i picked off the beach, a co worker is grabbing me more this week! So your saying 5lbs dry plus 5lbs live? 

For a powerhead, the AC10 is 30$ so is the Fluval U1 i could get extra filtration, but removing the matter to clean it do I have to put the unit out so the S..t inside doesnt get knocked off into the tank?

Corse sand as in crushed coral?


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

there are standard rules and then there are rules for the seasoned....

I have a 10g nano, I started off putting 5lbs of LR and sugar sand out of my Main tank. A week later I added coral and no problems, you're best bet is to take it slow and let the tank cycle properly before adding corals and fish because as everyone knows bad things can happen fast in a nano.

for filtration, I dont bother, flow is just a Hydor Koralia nano and lighting use to be a 150w Hqi but it ran too hot so now I am running LED which is by far the best purchase for the tank. I also have a small heater, the tank has been running flawless for 8 months.

here's the led I am running if you're interested in going that route, no bulb changes and save on energy and less heat in the tank.

E.Shine Systems' 60W CREE enters the aquarium LED arena ... sort of - Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

My routine is feeding once a week with mysis for the corals and water change of 10% every 2 weeks, it also runs a skimmerless set up which make the corals explode from the rich nutrients in the tank!!


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Hmmm good to know, thanks for the pointers, I am planning to take the " $#¡+ happens approach" Im gunna throw in the sand, a few lbs of rock and leave it for a while! Let $#¡+ happen, ive seen people throw in corals or fish instantly, but during the cycle ammonia levels can rise and kill things right? 

This is a project, Im bored, all my tanks and running perfect, and daily feedings aint feeding my addiction, lol why not experiment! Whats the worst that can happen? Lol

My only concern is,I have read adding fish/corals after can trigger a re-cycle? 

In a tank this size is there a maximum and minimum for water flow?


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

cichlid said:


> Hmmm good to know, thanks for the pointers, I am planning to take the " $#¡+ happens approach" Im gunna throw in the sand, a few lbs of rock and leave it for a while! Let $#¡+ happen, ive seen people throw in corals or fish instantly, but during the cycle ammonia levels can rise and kill things right?
> 
> This is a project, Im bored, all my tanks and running perfect, and daily feedings aint feeding my addiction, lol why not experiment! Whats the worst that can happen? Lol
> 
> ...


If you saw my tank, you'd be surprised at how little it takes to run it.
It's bare bones with equiptment and stocked with coral. It's actually very simple and that's the best way to keep things IMO.

Everyone thinks you need tons of equiptment to run a saltwater tank but the truth be told it's no different than running freshwater, you need filtration lighting and waterflow and heating. Just think of corals as plants, they use light to photosynthesize and also eat food. Depending on the corals you keep lighting and flow are important. Sps which are the colorful sticks need the most light and flow as they live on the reef crest where waves crash and get lots of light. Lps which have a calcium structure but soft body need medium light and medium flow, soft corals like mushrooms and zoas need the least amount of light and low flow.

So the question you gotta ask yourself is what you want to keep?

Sps moderate to hard, have to dose lots of calcium and make sure your water is pristine

Lps and softies prefer dirtier water as they thrive on nutrients in the water for survival.

Since you are starting out stick with softies, I remember 10yrs ago when I was a newbie and starting out, by day 3 I was adding zoas to my new tank without any problems.

About small cycles when you add coral, never happened with me!

But let the tank cycle then if you're looking for some colorful softies lemme know.

Also for lighting go with 2 HO t5 and you should be good, Go with 1 10,000k and 1 20,000k bulbs, giesmann seem to be good and you could save abit on boxing day sale at JL otherwise eBay is you next best bet for cheap bulbs...
Any other questions?


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Wow thanks, answered alot of questions there! The filter system i have is a hagan hush 20 elite, its rated to move 105gph... I should still run a pump of some sort right ? Air or water?


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Going skimmerless usually means you have to be more careful about water changes.

Softies thrive in slightly higher nutrient tanks but some LPS do not and will release their polyps off the skeleton if phosphates or nitrates are too high. Open brain corals, for instance, are not big fans of high nutrient waters.

Before adding any corals or fish, get your water tested.

The reef-keeping that Chris is describing can be attempted by more experienced reefers who have the knowledge, experience & established tanks to deal with problems if they occur. They are not necessarily going to work out well for a sw newbie. This is like telling a new driver how experienced drivers deal with traffic on the road and then sending them out to do the same thing. If I set up an instant tank, I know I am using the right amount of cured live rock from my established tanks and if something goes wrong, I can always find room in one of my established tanks to stick my corals or fish into temporarily. A newbie does NOT have these options.

Your dead rock is useless as biofiltration. If you don't have more than 3-4 lbs of cured live rock from an established tank, then you're probably going to go through a cycle or have other issues from trying to break the rules of sw keeping. Adding dead rock to a small system and expecting it to act like live rock does not work when you rush it. It takes months for it to become live again. In the meantime, the dead rock could be releasing unseen ammonia, phosphates & other nasties into your water, slowly poisoning your fish and corals. 

BTW, if your friend gets caught picking up and taking home live rock from Hawaii, he or she will go to jail and face a huge fine. The States are very, very strict about this sort of behaviour. Even with a CITES permit, doing this is illegal because the States does not allow for the harvesting or transportation of native live rock from its reefs. Google CITES permits and United States and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you like your friend, tell them to forget breaking the law just so you save a few dollars on buying live rock. Also, I would delete your posting that you broke the law doing this already. 

Two simple reef-keeping rules that newbies especially should keep in mind:

One pound or so of live rock per gallon.

Nothing good happens fast in reefing.

As Chris stated, there are things that experienced reefers can get away with that newbies should not attempt. If you use the right amount of CURED LIVE rock to start and transport the rock in a cooler of sw, then you can often cut short the cycle time. However, using almost no live rock and mostly dead rock and not even enough of both, rushing it will probably cause you to end up with a tank full of dead fish and corals. 

Anthony


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Its not live rock!, it is dead rock, chunks off the beach. According to HI state law, you are allowd to take dead rock, corals and shells for personal use, but I can;t sell it ( which I am not) I plan to bring it back to life over the next few months in a corner of the tank. 

Trust me, I am against removing life from the wild, i am hoping to build this with as much cultured, and farmed material as possible.

I am planning to take my time on this... I want it to grow as soon as possible, but I also want it to be done right, and waiting is the key.

if i use 80% live 30% dead how long do you figure it should take before I see growth form on the rocks? ( in a good healthy setup )


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

So I went to a sweet shop here in abby they have tons of loot! Its called petlovers, if your in the valley check it out. Its not everyday your LFS has black sea urchins bigger than your hand, lion fish, and 5" piranna.

I picked up a marineland 606 water pump. It moves the tank 7x per hour! So Im 23$ into my build! So far!


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

SeaHorse_Fanatic said:


> Going skimmerless usually means you have to be more careful about water changes.
> 
> Softies thrive in slightly higher nutrient tanks but some LPS do not and will release their polyps off the skeleton if phosphates or nitrates are too high. Open brain corals, for instance, are not big fans of high nutrient waters.
> 
> ...


Anthony had some good advice, Dont try to be a professional sports car driver.... take it slow!

As for flow in a tank, there are different things you can use.

I prefer the koralia for a cheaper starter powerhead because it produces a wider flow and more gentle. The pump you got seems to be used for undergravels or circulating water not really ideal but i guess it can work...

The idea is to have lots of flow around the tank, the less dead spots the better.

although too much flow and certain corals dont like it, mushrooms, anemones will simply release off a rock with too much flow.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

I was reading online that some suggest your entire tank should be moved 6-10 times per hour. This pump moves mine 7 times pure hour on max, and is very easy to turn down!

Im not jumping into this and dropping hundreds of $. 

Last night I was looking at a LFS and they have a large chunk of live rock, with a couple corals on it, so its cured its in a cycled tank for 50$. Maybe be a yellow belly damsel ( 7$ ) and a green chromis (7$) and then add in my dead rock from maui. I have an Iphone... Before I buy the rock I wouldfind out what the corals are currently groing, and research it.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

I think Chris' comment was that with a HK wavemaker, the flow is wide as opposed to the other powerheads' narrow flow. Wide stream vs narrow jet of water. The HK is better for corals, the powerheads are better for doing water changes.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

I never even thought of that! Attach a hoze to the nozzel for a water change. Thats genious! I get what you mean its a narrow flow, I mounted it against the back wall aiming the length its creating a circulation in the tank. Is it better to place it at the top, middle, or near the bottom?


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Just picked up a coralife 10,000k ( 10$ ) and 20lbs of #2 pink samoa sand. I think some of the fines are too fine so Im gunna run it throu the sieve stack at work ( perk with being a quality control inspector in a rock quarry)


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Yah even tho you have the powerhead moving water, you may still want to consider the H. koralia later for more flow for your liverock and corals!

As for fish please post here what fish you think about getting or do some research before jumping in. A chromis is kinda like a lemon tetra, whereas a yellow belly damsel is more like a cichlid. They get territorial(damsel) and may end up killing the more timid chromis. In a larger tank its not a big deal but in a smaller tank damsels get very agressive. Another thing with damsels is they will try to kill eachother unlike the schooling chromis.

The only damsel I will put in any of my tanks are clownfish.

As for reefsafe fish that will do well in a community setting here are some to consider....

Clownfish, fire fish, gobies, chromis, wrasses and hawkfish.

Good luck, and let the tank fully cycle before adding any fish, also add 1 fish every 2 weeks to let the system slowly adjust to the extra bioload.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

thanks. I kinda have a little check list I made it up, ( after the research I have done so far), Some guys have told me that a single 15w coralife 10,000 wont grow anything, but in a natural ocean reef, they are only exposed to 6700K and the most. I was reading on a site, that bulbs as powerful as 20,000K can actually kill the coraline algae that comes on the rocks. They also claim ( which I found interesting ) that live rock form florida is at a high risk for hitchhikers like mantis and Bristleworms, ( not sure if thats 100% true )
They also said buying live rock from the ocean is a better way to go, when it is brought into NA they remove the frags, but on the rocks and spores which may grow into corals ( if your levels/quality of water is good).

I plan to wait as you said without adding any fish for a few weeks, and I think every two weeks is a wise idea. I have been told that some suggest adding 1 fish during cycle to help things mature, they say something cheap like a chromis ( this is where the idea of a chromis came in )

my fish list is bigger than i need but again it depends on what is available. 

- green clown goby
- yellow clown goby
- purple fire fish
- catalina goby ( once established )
- red banded goby
- orange banded cardinalfish
- percula or ocellaris clown.

I have not fully researched each fish yet, and will before I buy any. I plan to do 2-4 fish depending on the ones I choose of course. also an electric blue hermit, and a couple shrimp for clean up. I have done a lot of research on this already, I am putting in the same care I have with all my other tanks.


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## Acipenser (Apr 21, 2010)

EXTREME PATIENCE ! is needed with marine, start slowly. I can't stress this enough, unlike fw, with marine you really need to let the tank cycle over time say at least 6 weeks or so with only L.R. - I had a hell of a time with this as I am an instant gratification kind of guy. I think the best thing you can do is make sure you have lot's of LR as this stuff is one awesome filtration system. You can get good deals on LR from people on this web site as well as canreef, Once your system stabilizes and your consistently getting low nitrate readings add 1 fish.


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## Acipenser (Apr 21, 2010)

I should also say you can get really well cured LR out of other members tanks and you may not need to cycle for such a long time, but you will have some die off during transporting back home, and will go thru a mini cycle. 

Secondly I would ditch the filter, the filter is just going to dump crap back into the tank unless your right on top of things I think the LR is a much better filter any way.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Running no filter at all?


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

You can run the filter while cycling but you need to clean out the media frequently to prevent it from becoming a nitrate factory. After the tank is fully cycled, use the filter for chemical filtration (charcoal) if you want, but rinse media regularly (at least once a week). Otherwise it becomes a nitrate factory. That's why most reefers don't use fw filters on their tanks.

Also, 15w of whatever k (6500k = daylight; 10000k = white reef light; 20000k = bluish reef light) is nowhere near enough for most corals.

This is a T5 or T5HO light?

Low light mushroom or zoas/softies may be ok under such low powered lights but that is about it. Would be better with more powerful lights.

Anthony


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Yea, the filter is a charcoal filter, Its best to rinse it when doing a water change on a fw tank too. 

The light is a 18" T8. With this like Im running 1 watt per gallon. The minimum for a reef tank. I am probably a month or two away from considering corals anyway. The bulb was 10$. I plan to add a second 18" T8 actinic blue a few months down the road this is simply to get my going.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

For fish-only, almost any light is fine. 

Actually, not spending a lot at this point is a good idea since you may find that you want to go bigger before upgrading your light. The 15g will be very limiting in terms of how many fish you can safely keep in there.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

yup, thats why i am trying to keep it simply/cheap. I have a 25 gallon and when my juvy cichlids grow up a 40. oh and a friend might be giving me a 55 with stand. 

this is an experiment, Im not going [email protected] to the wall on it anyway, just playing around, to see if I can do it. If I can establish a nano, keep a couple fish awesome, if not, well I know to either go big or stick with FW. lol 

This is pretty much a " im board of water changes and watching fish swim " project..lol


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Moved to Tank Journal subforum as per requested by OP.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

thanks.
so heres the tank bare bottem.









So here is the 15, I filled it the last night with tap water, not thinking for salt you need RO water. It was maybe a good thing. cuz it is now home toa female cichlid with a mouth full of eggs!









I guess that means I have good water quality in my 90? this is the second batch to come out of it in the last month or so. ( judging by the 1/4" fry i noticed hiding in the base rock today)

I think the light has good color, because I was told the 10,000K is yellow, but this one really isnt.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

6500k is yellowish. 10000k is white. 20000k is white with blue tint.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

weird cuz a few people I talked too ( one owns a SW shop ) said 10,000K were yellow. 

just goes to show you ( as you said ) never listen to just one person!


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

Your fish list sounds pretty good, you're off to a good start...

To answer some of your previous questions on lighting.

While the natural sun light on a reef is close to 6500k, not all corals live right at the surface, lots of corals live 5-20 meters down...

What I am trying to get at is when daylight or sunlight hits the water it gets filtered out, the deeper you go the more blue it gets, hence why most Sw tanks use 10,000k and above.

6500k is yellow, 10,000k is more whiter but when running metal halides it can look abit yellow 15,000k is more of a true white with purplish tinge and ofcourse 20,000k is blue

The fish store isn't wrong by saying 10,000k is yellow because if they use metal halide without supplement atinics then yes it's quite a sunny temperature, however Anthony isn't wrong either by saying 10,000k is a white light because when using T5. It is infact quite white.

As for buying rock from the ocean, alot of stuff dies on the rock as it sits and bakes on a beach before it's transported on a truck, then put on a plane for a few days. You can imagine the smell of dead sponges and whateverelse living in the rocks as they ship the rock dry or sometimes wrapped in damp newspaper.

I have bought some rock with corals and mussels before, the most premium rock I have ever bought, my friend still has a few pieces in his tank with porites and Xmas feather dusters. I paid a premium for that rock!

With that said I would do it if I started a new tank again but wouldn't add one of those rocks to an established reef because the die off would foul my water and possibly kill some corals.

Coraline algae prefer abit darker lighting to grow, for instance my coraline grows very healthy underneath other rock, but not on the top rocks. I've seen tanks with t5 running mostly atinics and have awesome growth, the same can be said about 150w hqi over a deeper tank.

It would be wrong to measure wpg on a reef tank because different corals grow under different amounts of light. For instance I can grow corals with Home Depot spiral fluorescent bulbs... But the coral will look pale and brown, don't think you would invest so much time to look at brown corals, would you?

With 2 15w t8 you can keep softies, t8 are kinda the old technology like t12 were back 5 years ago, for aquarium lighting to grow plants or corals the industry prefers to use t5, mh, led.

To my eyes I find that 2 t8 15w is less bright than 1 t5 24w HO with a reflector. The wattage definitely is abit less but the intensity is greater, the greater intensity will allow the light to penetrate deeper hence enabling corals to grow better lower down in the tank!

Corals use light to photosynthesize and feed animals living on the corals itself inturn feeding itself, you will notice how corals react to light and coloration.

I would use what you have first, then if you decide on adding a light down the road get a t5 fixture with reflector, you will see and feel the difference.


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## cichlid (Jul 30, 2010)

Ya for sure. I found a fixture that takes 2xT10 incandecent bulbs, not sure if there bulbs available but Iwas wondering if the make MH bulbs to fit it... 

I might do my 25gal instead, just have to convince the wife to let me set up tank #5 lol


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