# Dwarf Gourami - missing scales, area getting worse, turning red & getting bigger...



## Bunny

*Dwarf Gourami - missing scales, area getting worse, turning red & getting bigger...*

I've had 3 gourami in my tank for about a month now. In the store I did not look at them very closely, and a few days after we had them home I noticed a small patch of missing scales on one of them. It looked okay - like a small white patch that would heal soon. Unfortunately it has not healed and has only gotten worse. It has really accelerated in the last 2 days, the patch has become larger and a significant portion of it looks quite red and inflamed now. It is also starting to look a little "3D" - it is no longer just a flat patch of missing scales.

I hope someone can suggest a treatment for it. Unfortunately I do not have another tank to put the little guy in, so I would probably have to either just move him to somewhere temporarily to treat him and only leave him there for a short time (no filter/heater spare), or I would need to treat the whole tank.

I have read that these kinds of injuries can be bacterial, viral or parasitic in cause. The only other information I have is that one of my corydoras has been flashing on the substrate occasionally (he will so it about 5-6 times and then not again for days)

Water parameters are all pretty good - ammonia/nitrites are 0, nitrates are about 20, ph is about 7.2-7.4 (hard to get a good reading on it), KH is around 70 and GH around 60 if I remember right.


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## Bunny

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## Momobobo

Try salt+melafix+boosted temperature. (That is just whatd Id do)


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## Bunny

is that (the salt + melafix) safe for shrimp? I can move the snail into the shrimp tank, but it is not going to be possible to move all the shrimp out of the tank...
I suppose I would rather loose the shrimp than the gourami though... I'll get some melafix tomorrow. Even if it doesnt fix it, it cant hurt I guess.


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## Bunny

Momobobo said:


> Try salt+melafix+boosted temperature. (That is just whatd Id do)


oh! What dosage of salt would be okay? I have never dosed my entire tank with salt before...


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## Rockman

Melafix and salt might help with a recent injury; but melafix is too mild to be all that useful with a serious infection (it's more of a preventative... good to use on fresh wounds, but not once something's got established). You can try it; but the odds of it working are somewhat low.

If it were me, I'd be going with a round of antibiotics (API's furan 2 is a good choice) to start. That would require a seperate hospital tank; which I'd really recommend you have anyway. It's not super-expensive to set one up ($15 for an air pump and box filter, $30 for a heater, and any uncontaminated plastic tub works as a tank... or you could check out the classifieds section); and it's good for lots of stuff (equipment failures, QT'ing new arrivals (which can save you big time), and treating sick fish).

Another alternative is to physically clean the wound site with hydrogen peroxide and iodine and seal it with something like povidone. That would be the quickest and most effective treatment (and doesn't really require a hospital tank); but is also the most dangerous (it'd require sedation and lots of out-of-water handling; not really a fantastic option for the inexperienced).


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## Momobobo

Teaspoon per 10 gallons. It should be safe for shrimp.

Or you could that^


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## Bunny

Rockman said:


> Melafix and salt might help with a recent injury; but melafix is too mild to be all that useful with a serious infection (it's more of a preventative... good to use on fresh wounds, but not once something's got established). You can try it; but the odds of it working are somewhat low.
> 
> If it were me, I'd be going with a round of antibiotics (API's furan 2 is a good choice) to start. That would require a seperate hospital tank; which I'd really recommend you have anyway. It's not super-expensive to set one up ($15 for an air pump and box filter, $30 for a heater, and any uncontaminated plastic tub works as a tank... or you could check out the classifieds section); and it's good for lots of stuff (equipment failures, QT'ing new arrivals (which can save you big time), and treating sick fish).
> 
> Another alternative is to physically clean the wound site with hydrogen peroxide and iodine and seal it with something like povidone. That would be the quickest and most effective treatment (and doesn't really require a hospital tank); but is also the most dangerous (it'd require sedation and lots of out-of-water handling; not really a fantastic option for the inexperienced).


I'm wondering if it is staring to heal on its own a little? the wound site is now white and almost looks like it has scabbed over a little bit. I'll go to the store tomorrow and pick up some melafix anyways as it sounds like its good to have on hand, I'll see if they have the antibiotics... I think I might be able to dig up an old filter and see about a heater...

I guess as the filter is uncycled the quarantine/isolation tank would just need a water change every day?

Do you have more detailed information on how I would go about physically cleaning and sealing the wound (a link or something)? As well as information on how to sedate without overdosing and handling him without suffocating/"drowning" him? I would be more comfortable with being able to physically do something, although I'm not sure how I feel about having to handle the little guy out of the water... I suppose I'll try the antibiotics first.

As I was trying to take a picture, I noticed him scraping the wound against a piece of the driftwood in the tank - is this a sign of parasites? I have also seen occasional flashing in one or two of my corydoras recently..

The wound now looks like this:

















(i'll see if I can get some closer clearer pictures tomorrow)


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## AdobeOtoCat

Get those blue aqua bandaids

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## Bunny

If I cannot find furan-2 in stores (looking like I'm not going to be able to find it...) what would be another option? Just a general antibiotic. ..?

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## AdobeOtoCat

The furan2 is the antibiotic powder right? If you make your way to Burnaby. Store like King eds and jl aquatics will have them. 
My friends goldfish had some of those on their tail bones. I manually used the blue liquid bandaid things I bought from King eds, and use antibiotics to cure them. Good luck! 

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## kim86

If you can, move the infected fish to another tank. Gouramis, especially dwarf gouramis like the one you have that's unwell, get something called dwarf gourami disease. The photos you posted makes me think that's what's wrong. Survival rates are very low as there's no official treatment for the disease as of yet. I've heard that even a totally stable gourami can spring the disease up and infect all of the others in the tank. It's such a shame because they're beautiful little guys. Good luck with your treatment  I hope you get him back into good shape.

Here is some info on it Iridovirus Infections - A Word of Warning [Archive] - Aquarium Forum


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## Rockman

Bunny said:


> I'm wondering if it is staring to heal on its own a little? the wound site is now white and almost looks like it has scabbed over a little bit. I'll go to the store tomorrow and pick up some melafix anyways as it sounds like its good to have on hand, I'll see if they have the antibiotics... I think I might be able to dig up an old filter and see about a heater...


Once it's infected an injury is unlikey to get better on it's own; so I doubt that your guy is scabbing over (more likely it's a secondary fungal infection that's making it look whitish).



Bunny said:


> I guess as the filter is uncycled the quarantine/isolation tank would just need a water change every day?


I use zeolite (ammonia remover filter media) in the tanks I'm treating with antibiotics. Seems to work.



Bunny said:


> Do you have more detailed information on how I would go about physically cleaning and sealing the wound (a link or something)? As well as information on how to sedate without overdosing and handling him without suffocating/"drowning" him? I would be more comfortable with being able to physically do something, although I'm not sure how I feel about having to handle the little guy out of the water... I suppose I'll try the antibiotics first.


Koi Ulcer & Wound Treatment Tutorial
Koi Service - Treating Koi Wounds/Ulcers

Those articles are for koi; but the same steps apply. Clove oil it probably the easiest anesthetic to get (people use it as a natural remedy for toothaches... I got mine at a health food store). At five drops per gallon it's an anesthetic (10 drops per gallon is the dosage for euthanasia... so be careful). The trickiest bit is to sedate them without going too far (you have to dip them in the clove oil bath for just long enough so that they don't struggle when you pick them up; too long and they don't wake up). As for the actual cleaning part it's best to have the gills underwater while you work (rig up some kind of shallow tray). Work quickly but delicately and remember not to rinse the H2O2 or iodine towards the gills. As for the sealer: it's hard to find stuff meant for fish (it's not something that's commonly done); but I did well with this stuff.

I do recommend going with an antibiotic first; this is something that's not all that hard to mess up.



Bunny said:


> As I was trying to take a picture, I noticed him scraping the wound against a piece of the driftwood in the tank - is this a sign of parasites? I have also seen occasional flashing in one or two of my corydoras recently..
> 
> The wound now looks like this:
> 
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> (i'll see if I can get some closer clearer pictures tomorrow)


Parasites are not all that likely (although sometimes it can be a contributing factor). The occasional bout of flashing isn't all that troubling (we all get itchy sometimes... which is what flashing indicates).



Bunny said:


> If I cannot find furan-2 in stores (looking like I'm not going to be able to find it...) what would be another option? Just a general antibiotic. ..?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


There are a few other brands with the same active ingredients (nitrofurazone and furazolidone). Tetra Fungus guard is probably the most common one. Other antibiotics might work as well; but you'd probably need to research them. Different antibiotics are used against different bugs; so you might end up using something that's not all that effective against what you've got (an ulcer). Also, some of the more readily available antibiotics found in the LFS have been used forever and lots of bugs are resistant to them (Tetracycline being a classic example).



kim86 said:


> If you can, move the infected fish to another tank. Gouramis, especially dwarf gouramis like the one you have that's unwell, get something called dwarf gourami disease. The photos you posted makes me think that's what's wrong. Survival rates are very low as there's no official treatment for the disease as of yet. I've heard that even a totally stable gourami can spring the disease up and infect all of the others in the tank. It's such a shame because they're beautiful little guys. Good luck with your treatment  I hope you get him back into good shape.
> 
> Here is some info on it Iridovirus Infections - A Word of Warning [Archive] - Aquarium Forum


Yep. DGI is a problem. However, I personally think it's a little bit overused as a diagnosis; Most threads involving sick dwarf gouramis will make mention of it somewhere. The classic DGI is pretty quick moving and has a near 100% mortality rate; which doesn't describe this situation. It is possible that a low level infection could be causing this kind of problem; but my money is on something less exciting (particularly since that gourami looks to be otherwise fairly healthy... DGI would be a better fit if the fish looked generally unwell; an even better fit would be if multiple fish were affected). Injury is more likely in this case I think.


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## Bunny

Thank you all for your advice, I have just finished a course of treatment with API's Triple Sulfa (this was what my local LFS suggested instead of furan-2 which they did not carry) and I'm not sure what the wound should look like - it still looks quite red, but maybe it is supposed to? I'm wondering if the meds worked or if I need to do a second treatment or try something else. Also, at this point would I put him back into the main tank or keep him isolated until he is fully healed?


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## Rockman

Well, that's progress anyway. Red means it's still infected; but at least the white stuff (probably fungus) is gone. I'd go for another round of antibiotics. Triple sulfa would be an appropriate antibiotic. Although it is one of the older drugs so there may be some resistance problems (opinion on triple sulfa appears to be somewhat divided). If it's working though I'd say stick with it.


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## Bunny

Okay. Sounds good. Thank you  I'll update with another pic when I have finished the next round of treatment.
What should I be looking for as a sign of the infection being completely gone?

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## Rockman

Hmmm... tricky one. It can be somewhat difficult to tell an uninfected wound vs one that has some fungus in it. I guess the big tipoff is an uninfected wound will heal over and an infected one won't. There are some visual differences as well; but it's a bit hard to describe. It'll look clean with no redness or swelling (most obvious around the edges).


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## Clownloachlover

Bunny, props to you for taking so much time and effort trying to save a little fish...I know it more than just a little fish...but props to you!


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## shady280

keeping an eye on this one, i was researching dwarf gouramis as i wanted a showpiece fish for my new 8g tank and loved the look of them. read about dgi and kinda worried, good info here.


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## Bunny

NOOO!! 
I've just finished the second course of triple Sulfa on the little guy and the wound is still red and nasty looking, doesn't seem better at all, and he is very seriously bloated. Like REALLY swollen. I feel terrible - I should have noticed the swelling happening before it got nearly this bad.
Is there anything that can be done for him at this point...?

Wound & swelling:

















(The water is odd - colored due to my camera's flash and the tank water I put into his bucket has tannins from driftwood)

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## Bunny

Anyone? I have no idea what to do for him... I looked up dropsy, but I'm not sure if that is what it is... doesnt really look like it to me. Anyone have any ideas/solutions?


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## AdobeOtoCat

Get the Eco bandaid Yo. Go to King eds and buy one. It'll help. 

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## Bunny

will that help with the swelling? I'm worried he is going to literally explode


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## AdobeOtoCat

It will help with the wound and let the fish recover from bloating. If you're pro enough. You can try and rub the fish gently to help with the bloating (assuming it's in the stomach) 

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## Bunny

I finally got out to king ed pets and got the blue bandaid stuff. It seems to be helping as the wound is looking less fiery red (still red though, but that might just be normal wound-colour) and the bloating is slowly decreasing.

Do you have any advice to apply the blue bandaid? I scoop him up in a net and quickly dry the wound and then apply the bandaid, however it usually washes off in about 5-10 minutes, sometimes sooner if I have done a poor job of drying it. Is that okay or is there a better way to apply it?

Also, how long should I expect the redness to last for/how long does an average wound take to completely heal over? I'll update with a new pic tonight before I put the blue stuff on.


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## mrbob

make sure your using the pickling salt it will help!


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## AdobeOtoCat

When I did it. I just dripped it on or used cotton swab. Without even drying the fish off. It coagulates once it touches the water. It'll cover the wound. 

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## Bunny

I want to thank everyone for the advice given. Unfortunately, we euthanized the gourami last night. The wound was still getting worse despite everything and also the little guy's stomach looked like he swallowed a beach ball. It had been getting better slowly but then it just flared up again to be worse than the first time. Due to the lack of response to the treatment, as well as the inevitability of him being in discomfort from the stomach and wound... we decided to ease his discomfort once and for all. RIP little dude...


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## Rockman

Sorry to hear that. From the sounds of it you did everything you could for him.


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