# Has anyone ever gotten a good deal bringing extra fish to LFS



## AfricanCichlids

I would love to sell lfs my extra fish, or at least get a credit....
Never noticed a thread about this before.. so..

I tried King Ed's which only took them for free, and sold them for 20 bucks each  , 
rodgers took a few and gave me a buck each, but they don't really need any, so they say..

I know many people bring unwanted fish to lfs for free to get rid of them...
but really, you are biting the hand that feeds you. Don't you think it better to kill the fish, and starve the lfs of FREE supply of fish in order to get them to pay you a fair price or at least trade for other items??


----------



## TCR

well i would first try to sell them privately... you'll never get your money back bring them in

its not fair to them to be stuck with someone elses issue as they have to feed the fish and hope they sell..

and i would perfer to give a fish away rather then kill it.. hopefully you make someone else happy


----------



## AfricanCichlids

I tend to kill a few now and then, rather that than see my hard labor go to someone else for free, I like to recover least make food money. And the more you help someone, the more they expect ... FOR FREE, this one way street gets old.

Does the store in langley carry africans ?? whats the store name, address

Sorry I cant PM untill I get 10 posts again or some stupid thing.


----------



## Kitsune

I agree with TCR... I don't think I can kill my fish.
When I buy my fish, I don't think about the 'resale' value of them. So when I spend $20 on a fish, I don't think "lets see... in two years I'll probably sell them, and since they'll be 3 inches, they should sell for at least $15..."
Once its spent its spent, and if I decide later that I can't keep them, then I would rather give it away for free to someone who wants them and will care for them, than kill it or give it to a LFS (I don't mind selling it to a LFS, but I would rather that someone take them and get some joy out of them, especially if they could not have afforded them otherwise.) Getting some money back is nice too...


----------



## TCR

well even with all that said..

I had a buddy that flooded the market with pirahas

If people are breeding them why should that take them in

also if you post free fish or a decent deal they will go fast on this site


----------



## AfricanCichlids

HALLO... Fish make babies, lots of them, ( hell I harvested over 200 this week alone ! ) they cost time/money to raise
Why on earth would I give anyone free fish, and have them sell them a week later ?? Unless they are a freind, or have a trade..
Killing unwanted fish drives up the price. I put down 100's a year. 
I tried giving them away on here a few times, only to find them in the classified days later, to hell with that



Kitsune said:


> I agree with TCR... I don't think I can kill my fish.
> When I buy my fish, I don't think about the 'resale' value of them. So when I spend $20 on a fish, I don't think "lets see... in two years I'll probably sell them, and since they'll be 3 inches, they should sell for at least $15..."
> Once its spent its spent, and if I decide later that I can't keep them, then I would rather give it away for free to someone who wants them and will care for them, than kill it or give it to a LFS (I don't mind selling it to a LFS, but I would rather that someone take them and get some joy out of them, especially if they could not have afforded them otherwise.) Getting some money back is nice too...


----------



## BossRoss

am i the only one who thinks killing fish to drive up prices is horrid?


----------



## jdm_03

if by the store in langley u mean fishworld, they sell africans. i went by last week and was not impressed.. u know, the LFS african cichlids, "mixed tank" variety and stock of that nature..


----------



## TCR

i fed the convict babies to my other fish

shame on me but it is the circle of life

If one wants to breed for profit find something high in demand

remember a lot of people are breeding there fish but one will have to figure out to do with the lifestock after

if a market gets flooded no one wants to bring them in to there store

i would suggest trying to sell them here and on creigslist

there is a reason its called a hobby

I hope i dont sound mean as its not ment to


----------



## kodak

Its the same pretty much at all LFS... they say that they dont really need them, dont have the space ect... ching ching, next week theyre asking for top dollar for your fish. Sell them privately and get what you deserve. Dont let the LFS capitalize on all your hard work...



AfricanCichlids said:


> I would love to sell lfs my extra fish, or at least get a credit....
> Never noticed a thread about this before.. so..
> 
> I tried King Ed's which only took them for free, and sold them for 20 bucks each  ,
> rodgers took a few and gave me a buck each, but they don't really need any, so they say..
> 
> I know many people bring unwanted fish to lfs for free to get rid of them...
> but really, you are biting the hand that feeds you. Don't you think it better to kill the fish, and starve the lfs of FREE supply of fish in order to get them to pay you a fair price or at least trade for other items??


----------



## AfricanCichlids

I love stiring up the pot...
Makes things on here a bit less dull.
But all said, I do put down a lot of fish, sometimes you just have to make a call to make space for the species you care for most.



BossRoss said:


> am i the only one who thinks this fellow should be lynched?


----------



## 182

I don't agree with killing them _at all_. Just not cool. (Using them as live food, hoever - at least you're contributing to the "circle of life" TCR! )

I know a few LFS that will work out deals with you if you're a good guy to deal with. I think the best bet is to just call around and ask if they can work out some sort of deal with you - fish in exchange for food is pretty fair, I'd say.

As for 'driving up the price' - if you're in the hobby to make money... I think you've picked the wrong hobby.


----------



## TCR

AfricanCichlids said:


> I love stiring up the pot...
> Makes things on here a bit less dull.
> But all said, I do put down a lot of fish, sometimes you just have to make a call to make space for the species you care for most.


well if you want i can use them as food depending how big they are


----------



## BossRoss

sorry but u came across as if you murdered fish for profit... 

TCR: agree re: circle of life. i've fed guppy fry to larger tank inhabitants


----------



## AfricanCichlids

Tried that as well, gave away feeders, again, to see them for sale on here, no thanks. I dont want to make money on fish, I give hundreds away to freinds for free. But I will not see anyone make profit on the fish I Import and raise for the good of our local hobby.



TCR said:


> well if you want i can use them as food depending how big they are


----------



## 182

So...you kill fish out of _spite_?


----------



## TCR

what are you breeding if i may ask

like i said some poeple could be intrested if buying them from you direct


----------



## jdm_03

I've never bred anything on the scale Tom has nor have I ever kept so many tanks but when u get 30-40 fry per spawn every month or so, what are u gonna do with them? You are gonna run outta tank space real quickly and if u give them away for free, how do u ever expect to sell any?


----------



## AfricanCichlids

Oh ya, I kill them for spite... always a cracker on here, 
what do you mean, every month little J? I get broods every day, after a month or 2, they require a 50 gallon or more, I only have 30 tanks set up right now, with 20 species breeding at any given time.

I breed african, 90% haps. 10% mbuna



jdm_03 said:


> I've never bred anything on the scale Tom has nor have I ever kept so many tanks but when u get 30-40 fry per spawn every month or so, what are u gonna do with them? You are gonna run outta tank space real quickly and if u give them away for free, how do u ever expect to sell any?


----------



## TCR

well a wise person told me

"know your market"

also

"if you breed a fish, know what your gonna do with the offspring"

keep in mind its a hobby

my convict cant keep up with what i need to feed so i got rid of them for way less then what i bought them for

you can try to get rid of all one gender and see if that works or get some fish that will eat the fry


----------



## Kitsune

AfricanCichlids said:


> H
> Killing unwanted fish drives up the price. I put down 100's a year.


I don't get this.

I am ok with the Circle of Life thing. I mean I'm sure I lose a ton of my shrimp through this (and this is why I have a separate breeding tank for the shrimp, i transfer 20 shrimps a week).

But killing the fish so that other people can't enjoy the hobby is weird. If i have 20 babies that I can't handle, I am ok with posting it here or on Craigslist. And if the fish end up being sold again, fine... at least they are being appreciated by someone. There are those that can't afford this hobby to the level that some of us can. I've seen people on this forum who have manage to build an entire community tank with free fish from fellow hobbyists. And they have wonderful tanks, and contribute to this community. Teach us what they have learned. Share their tank journals.



AfricanCichlids said:


> I love stiring up the pot...
> Makes things on here a bit less dull.


I'm glad we are entertaining you, but I can't say I am amused.


----------



## neven

Now you mention you are the one investing time and money raising these fry, but you do not want these fish, so why bother investing that time, Don't grind up food, or get a predator to eat the fry. Theres plenty of fish that'll keep the fry in check with only the odd one ever making it, and by limiting the availability of food, you are making them more vulnerable to the predators.

Now expecting a store to buy your fish is naive. Its different if you are a valued customer and you rarely have any fish to bring in, but you are expecting them to buy your fish as if you are a breeder every time they breed.

When it comes to culling fish, i have no qualms about it, many need to do it to keep their breed stock strong. But there needs to be responsibility. Simply culling because you don't want anyone getting something for free that spend money raising is not responsible. Expecting people to pay what stores sell them for is not responsible.

There's more ways to get rid of fish rather than giving them away, and its easier when you do as i said above, limit the stock that can make it through, it keeps the fish from flooding the community. You could trade for items needed, be generous, you atleast are getting rid of them. You could sell them in groups labelled as a starter colony, it covers the cost of food, and gives some pocket money. You could even bundle them with equipment you want to get rid of. If they don't sell, then its feeder stock for dirt cheap or free to someone you know/like on the forums. better in a fish stomach than in a toilet bowl.

also, if someone resells your feeders on here as stock, then that should be taken up through itrader. Not many have a negative review and no one wants one. This forum isn't about a few people grabbing the deals to resell for higher, its about sharing what we have to better the hobby in this province

Unrelated point, I mostly keep to FF and FT only because some of the plants and species i have were given to me from members here, and i just don't feel right selling what they gave me, afterall its only pocket change in most cases.



> There are those that can't afford this hobby to the level that some of us can.


Quote for truth! being unemployed this long due to the economy, the members here have made it a lot easier to keep my tanks progressing


----------



## AfricanCichlids

ya why not, I'll just give fish to any tom dick and harry that comes by.


----------



## 182

You ignored his points regarding limiting the ability of your fish to breed.


----------



## redsnapper

I really hate it when the use of selling fish for profit is used,, who on this forum or any other for that matter can actually claim they made a profit.. I spent thousands of dollars importing wild stock and breeding for my own enjoyment as well as to enhance the hobby, yet in order to sell to members rare fish of pure stock I had to have a sponsorship that costs me extra,, I never , ever could claim I made a profit , yet I supplied quite a few members with fish they would other wise be unable to have due to the importing and cost of fish at your local fish store.. and then they in turn breed that stock and sell on this forum with out the extra expense of yearly sponsorship fee's, every body from the forum down made or saved money at my expense.. one I had to pay this forum for... 
As far as I'm concerned these forums are charging a so called local breeder a fee to give its members a great deal as well as access to new species,, 
I also got tired of forums and its members capitalizing at my time and expense.. so I just don't do it any more, I still have a wounderfull collection of some very hard to get species and my stock are quality.. but this forum and members alike ruin a lot of good things ( for profit)


----------



## TCR

we can arrange something if you will sell them as feeder and i will sign that i wont sell them..

I dont like feeders from LFS as they are usually sick.. 

so if you can provide me with fry that u dont want we can make an arrangement if your gonna kill them anyway, my fish love eating other fish


----------



## TCR

i like to think of it as a community

ive given items away and have sold items, but if i can help someone i try my best

i think its more for the education and expeiriences of other people to learn, that is the purpous of the forum



redsnapper said:


> I really hate it when the use of selling fish for profit is used,, who on this forum or any other for that matter can actually claim they made a profit.. I spent thousands of dollars importing wild stock and breeding for my own enjoyment as well as to enhance the hobby, yet in order to sell to members rare fish of pure stock I had to have a sponsorship that costs me extra,, I never , ever could claim I made a profit , yet I supplied quite a few members with fish they would other wise be unable to have due to the importing and cost of fish at your local fish store..
> As far as I'm concerned these foroms are charging a breeder a fee to give its members a great deal as well as access to new species,,
> I also got tired of forums and its members capitalizing at my time and expense.. so I just don't do it any more, I still have a wounderfull collection of some very hard to get species and my stock are quality.. but this forum and members alike ruin a lot of good things ( for profit)


----------



## neven

AfricanCichlids said:


> ya why not, I'll just give fish to any tom dick and harry that comes by.


If you weren't after constructive comments, then don't bother posting in a forum.



redsnapper said:


> I really hate it when the use of selling fish for profit is used....


Well when the stock is rare, pricey and well bred, i can see the price reflecting that, afterall, its not fish you just give away to anybody, someone has to see value in them. We have sponsors, some specifically deal with rare stock and i can see some of their toes being stepped on. We have several here who try breeding, sell off what they've successfully bred and we don't see any other live stock posts from them in months, those kinds im sure the sponsors dont care much about. However when you have people who breed multiple kinds of fish and post them for sale every week, especially if they are rare, then i would consider this out of line from the classifieds. It doesn't matter if profit isn't made in the long run, cash changes hands too quickly and it can be seen as a side business.

That gives you a few choices, buy a sponsorship (not likely to happen for a hobbyist), very rarely post in the classifieds and diversify where you sell your fish (likely already happening), and chronicalize your breeding in a tank journal, People will PM you if they want fish from you and keep the transactions to private messages and itrader.

i think it just comes down to keeping the classifieds for the hobbyists and not as a business avenue for others. The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and it does get harsh for those who are close to that line


----------



## effox

Thanks for keeping this civil guys, let's maintain this discussion in this manner.


----------



## ibenu

BAck to "have you ever gotten a good deal bringing in extra fish "

Yes, I took a bunch of angels and baby pleco's to IPU in BNorth Burnaby and was very happy with the credit. The credit per fish was more than I could get people Here to buy them for. 

I would love to see a thread dedicated to the difficulty in raising fish for profit.. This however is not that thread, I look forward to reading one started by you guys though. I think it would be eye opening for many to have the costs assocaited with breeding brought to light.

Again IPU in NB gave me a great deal on my trade ins...


----------



## fkshiu

redsnapper said:


> .. but this forum and members alike ruin a lot of good things ( for profit)


That's a bit harsh, don't you think?


----------



## donjuan_corn

I'm sorry, any person that kills their fish to make room is disturbing and shouldn't be posting on a site of fish lovers, keepers and traders.


----------



## redsnapper

fkshiu said:


> That's a bit harsh, don't you think?


Its certainly not meant to be harsh.. I guess it depends on which point of view your taking,, I am old enough to know that there are alot of good things in this world that are abused and taken for granted. I am not confining that to just this forum or forums in general,, Its simply a fact of life. Why would this forum be any different. 
I am however confining my statement on this forum to the topic of how a local breeder is labled "for profit" when most , if not all that have tried have failed to see profit and give up.. So what was started with intentions of a win win situaltion never materializes, yet the forum made money local members benifitted by having access to new species and quality stock and yes lots of freebies to freinds. Every one gained but the breeder.

Oh and guess what ,, the fish the breeder paid this forum to sell are now being sold by (hobbiest for profit)


----------



## 2wheelsx2

redsnapper said:


> I also got tired of forums and its members capitalizing at my time and expense.. so I just don't do it any more, I still have a wounderfull collection of some very hard to get species and my stock are quality.. but this forum and members alike ruin a lot of good things ( for profit)


It's good that you're no longer wasting your time. But on the flip side of your coin, why should anyone provide a Free forum for you to sell your fish? So if you don't want to take a loss to benefit others, why should someone else do that same for you? Why would someone want to pour money out of their pockets to run this forum so you and others can make money? I think you're looking at it very egocentrically....


----------



## redsnapper

2wheelsx2 said:


> It's good that you're no longer wasting your time. But on the flip side of your coin, why should anyone provide a Free forum for you to sell your fish? So if you don't want to take a loss to benefit others, why should someone else do that same for you? Why would someone want to pour money out of their pockets to run this forum so you and others can make money? I think you're looking at it very egocentrically....


It ignorant comments like this that are backing my point... the local breeder does not profit. and by me not selling my fish at a third of lps. who really loses,, not me,,, I save money and still have my fish..


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Argghh...what's the point.....I take my comments back. Waste of my time and keystrokes.


----------



## TCR

ive returned fish once to fish world.. but ive purchused from them before...got full retail credit.. used it on fish... they just want steady people and if they see you as potential they do what they can for you

was not going to post this as its not one of our sponcers


----------



## Rastapus

Interesting thread. Most of our clients who trade in fish they breed on a regular basis comment all the time that the fish they breed pays for the up keep of their aquariums. There is a big difference between "getting rid of some fish" and breeding fish for the LFS that they actually want. Convict cichlids is a classic example, I have not imported Convicts in the last 10 years. Why? Because they are constantly brought in and sit around generally until such time that they have developed color and grown. Guess how? By the LFS pumping food into them for months and yes, spending money.

Our clients who breed say Angelfish or good quality Guppies on the other hand are always very happy with their trade in values. In general most hobbyists can appreciate the overhead LFS incur and are happy they are even willing to offer this service. There seems to be a few posts here that believe they should receive full value or a very high value without considering the LFS. 

The other advantage is being able to find a place for all your fish. How many people advertise fish for sale on this forum and have constant no shows, changed minds or simply have people come over and hum and hah and take your personal time? What is your time worth?


----------



## redsnapper

Rastapus said:


> Interesting thread. Most of our clients who trade in fish they breed on a regular basis comment all the time that the fish they breed pays for the up keep of their aquariums. There is a big difference between "getting rid of some fish" and breeding fish for the LFS that they actually want. Convict cichlids is a classic example, I have not imported Convicts in the last 10 years. Why? Because they are constantly brought in and sit around generally until such time that they have developed color and grown. Guess how? By the LFS pumping food into them for months and yes, spending money.
> 
> Our clients who breed say Angelfish or good quality Guppies on the other hand are always very happy with their trade in values. In general most hobbyists can appreciate the overhead LFS incur and are happy they are even willing to offer this service. There seems to be a few posts here that believe they should receive full value or a very high value without considering the LFS.
> 
> The other advantage is being able to find a place for all your fish. How many people advertise fish for sale on this forum and have constant no shows, changed minds or simply have people come over and hum and hah and take your personal time? What is your time worth?


Valued input.....


----------



## SeaHorse_Fanatic

Rastapus said:


> Interesting thread. Most of our clients who trade in fish they breed on a regular basis comment all the time that the fish they breed pays for the up keep of their aquariums. There is a big difference between "getting rid of some fish" and breeding fish for the LFS that they actually want. Convict cichlids is a classic example, I have not imported Convicts in the last 10 years. Why? Because they are constantly brought in and sit around generally until such time that they have developed color and grown. Guess how? By the LFS pumping food into them for months and yes, spending money.
> 
> Our clients who breed say Angelfish or good quality Guppies on the other hand are always very happy with their trade in values. In general most hobbyists can appreciate the overhead LFS incur and are happy they are even willing to offer this service. There seems to be a few posts here that believe they should receive full value or a very high value without considering the LFS.
> 
> The other advantage is being able to find a place for all your fish. How many people advertise fish for sale on this forum and have constant no shows, changed minds or simply have people come over and hum and hah and take your personal time? What is your time worth?


Glad someone has added the LFS's perspective. Thanks for contributing to the discussions on this forum Grant. It helps keep things a little more balanced when it comes to topics like this.

From my own past experiences, I usually post on the forums first and then bring to the LFS if I can't sell privately. Therefore, by that point in time, if I get only a quarter or third of what the livestock is really worth (or sometimes less), I'm usually ok with it since I'm just trying to get rid of it by then.

Anthony


----------



## Aquaman

Well I gotta side with Tom on this one.
The chance of Tom ( we are not talking about guppies or angle fish ) making money on his Africans are at best slim.
I agree that killing a fish is a bit sad but if you look at the amount of fry and the space one needs.... its staggering.

So Joe blow buys 1800 bucks worth of fish . He waits 3 years for most of them to mature and have the chance to breed . 
Oh sheesh one group of fish was mostly females and 2 or 3 males . The males die and after 3 years of feeding heating and care he is stuck with a bunch of females.
Joe also has another group that has a female spit out 10 fry ...Whhooo hooo !....after 3 years ?..... lots of money in that.
Joe gave me ( free of charge ) 3 male and 2 female Williams North.( had 3 times that to start with..) Never had a fry from them . One female gets to where she is holding  who hoo ! 
Unfortunately the biggest male ate her throat out to get at the fry killing her and at the same time eating himself to death . Both fish dead as doornail's one morning . Leaves 2 males and 1 female. ( not alto of success so far ) no fault of Joe's.Now the 2 nd female gets to holding and it takes tom and I 5 hours to gut the tank to catch the fish. Finally gave up her fry today ..........heres hoping she had 300 so as in a few years he can actually hope to make some money.....maybe even enough to pay for the food they have eaten .

Any one who is slamming Tom for this thread does not have a clue how much hard work he puts into the dozens of tanks. I had a wack of red empresses that he did not want back as they ( to him ) did not meet the quality standard he wishes to keep . 
We should count ourselves lucky to have access to quality cichlids.

One last thing Sponser v/s breeder ...I think if you sell only fish and not misc aquarium supplies you should be able to sell your fish here . Fish stores make their money on selling everything to do with Fish..If all you are selling are fish.......I think that you should be allowed too
My opinion. ...pretty tough to sell 3000 bucks worth of fish to pay for a sponsership...IMHO......Bring in a breeder section for 50 bucks...
Go ahead girls have at it 

oh yea FNG"s


----------



## bigfry

I had fish trade-ins with Roger's at their old store in New Westminster. Got the credits that I had expected and used them a few months later on some nice healthy panda corys. I have also traded in fishes at IPU over the the years; and used the credits on some equipments.
I don't mind lfs give store credits that are only 1/4 or so of the selling prices. It's the convenience that ranks top on my list. Also, I always pick the lfs that has the stuffs that I want to buy to do the trade-ins.



Rastapus said:


> ...The other advantage is being able to find a place for all your fish. How many people advertise fish for sale on this forum and have constant no shows, changed minds or simply have people come over and hum and hah and take your personal time? What is your time worth?


Very true.


----------



## TCR

wel all in all i would breed something for 
a. food for my other fish
b. something that was in demand
c. something unusual or rare

like i said no point in breeding if there is no market for them

and the breeder section i think would be a good idea tho the sponcers prolly wont


----------



## ninez

bigfry said:


> I had fish trade-ins with Roger's at their old store in New Westminster. Got the credits that I had expected and used them a few months later on some nice healthy panda corys. I have also traded in fishes at IPU over the the years; and the credits on some equipments.
> I don't mind lfs give store credits that are only 1/4 or so of the selling prices. It's the convenience that ranks top on my list. Also, I always pick the lfs that has the stuffs that I want to buy to do the trade-ins.
> 
> Very true.


Well.. that's your answer!! Rogers or IPU if you want to get "good deal" bringing extra fish to LFS.


----------



## TCR

or fish world if you get to know them
i got full retail


----------



## ninez

Aquaman said:


> One last thing Spenser v/s breeder ...I think if you sell only fish and not misc aquarium supplies you should be able to sell your fish here . Fish stores make their money on selling everything to do with Fish..If all you are selling are fish.......I think that you should be allowed too
> My opinion. ...pretty tough to sell 3000 bucks worth of fish to pay for a sponsership...IMHO......Bring in a breeder section for 50 bucks...
> Go ahead girls have at it
> 
> oh yea FNG"s


ahh.. do you mean sponsor? I was like.. who is Spenser.


----------



## Mferko

never been given a good deal for trade-ins at a store.
ive been promised good deals b4 tho, king eds had said they were gonna pay me $10 each for each demasoni i brought in at a size they could sell, by the time they got to that size they were no longer interested.... all talk.


----------



## Aquaman

ninez said:


> ahh.. do you mean sponsor? I was like.. who is Spenser.


LOL yea I clicked change on the speeel cheque button ....didnt have my glasses handy ........So glad you figured it out .though ....


----------



## 182

Sadly, my BNP's stopped breeding. And the oddest thing - their bristles have all but disappeared! I never expected to make money off of them, but trade-ins for credit and food were nice.

I also think a breeder forum would be a good idea. A free registry where breeders can post what they've got handy and what's coming up. Sponsors could actually _benefit_ from this because they'd be able to find alternate breeders in the community to deal with.

If for nothing else than to save a few thousand fishlets from euthanasia each year.


----------



## AfricanCichlids

Aquaman gives a good summary of what a breeder goes thru, and the services we provide FOR the forum, FISH. When was the last time you went to lfs and seen a decent selection of compatible fish?? breeders spend THOUSANDS importing nice rare breeds, and are lucky to recover 2% of fish cost. What good is a LFS without the ability to supply the fish you want?? They make money on supplies and setups. Morons like me keep them in bussiness by supplying the missing link they cant afford to supply, because its a risky, costly chore at best.

King eds has over 20 THOUSAND bucks business from me in past 2 years alone, and still give u squat for fish. They would rather you sell them, so they can sell more tanks.


----------



## 182

I just can't help but think that's there's something intrinsically wrong with your business model, then. You know what I mean?

Personally, I've always of the mindset that buying from a local breeder is the most ethical and responsible route. Perhaps you could reflect this in the prices you ask for? I'd _gladly_ pay more for a healthy fish that comes from a responsible breeder, and I know I can't be the only one. At any LFS I'm instantly drawn to any tank that says "Locally bred" because of this.

But I guess, again, the question comes down to your business model. What are you after, specifically?


----------



## ninez

breeder section sounds nice.. 
so more breeders will surface and members can benefit on their decent selection of fish LOL


----------



## TCR

does your local dealer have a good fish return policy?


----------



## Claudia

Aquaman said:


> Well I gotta side with Tom on this one.
> The chance of Tom ( we are not talking about guppies or angle fish ) making money on his Africans are at best slim.
> I agree that killing a fish is a bit sad but if you look at the amount of fry and the space one needs.... its staggering.
> 
> So Joe blow buys 1800 bucks worth of fish . He waits 3 years for most of them to mature and have the chance to breed .
> Oh sheesh one group of fish was mostly females and 2 or 3 males . The males die and after 3 years of feeding heating and care he is stuck with a bunch of females.
> Joe also has another group that has a female spit out 10 fry ...Whhooo hooo !....after 3 years ?..... lots of money in that.
> Joe gave me ( free of charge ) 3 male and 2 female Williams North.( had 3 times that to start with..) Never had a fry from them . One female gets to where she is holding  who hoo !
> Unfortunately the biggest male ate her throat out to get at the fry killing her and at the same time eating himself to death . Both fish dead as doornail's one morning . Leaves 2 males and 1 female. ( not alto of success so far ) no fault of Joe's.Now the 2 nd female gets to holding and it takes tom and I 5 hours to gut the tank to catch the fish. Finally gave up her fry today ..........heres hoping she had 300 so as in a few years he can actually hope to make some money.....maybe even enough to pay for the food they have eaten .
> 
> Any one who is slamming Tom for this thread does not have a clue how much hard work he puts into the dozens of tanks. I had a wack of red empresses that he did not want back as they ( to him ) did not meet the quality standard he wishes to keep .
> We should count ourselves lucky to have access to quality cichlids.
> 
> One last thing Sponser v/s breeder ...I think if you sell only fish and not misc aquarium supplies you should be able to sell your fish here . Fish stores make their money on selling everything to do with Fish..If all you are selling are fish.......I think that you should be allowed too
> My opinion. ...pretty tough to sell 3000 bucks worth of fish to pay for a sponsership...IMHO......Bring in a breeder section for 50 bucks...
> Go ahead girls have at it
> 
> oh yea FNG"s


I agree with Bill here, Tom works hard to have quality fish and he does his best to have the best he can, water changes alone for 30 tanks is a lot of work plus food hydro etc He gives good quality and good prices and he is also very generous. 
I also think that prices for sponsor are a bit high for home breeders but then i am not a breeder, i think it should b a diferent price so home breeders could maybe b breeder sponsors


----------



## Rastapus

The African Cichlid hobby in general in BC is no where near as popular as in past years. Many groups of fish go through "cycles" in this trade. I can remember 10 years ago when Africans were it! Truthfully at the moment it is mostly the more common Africans that are selling now. It will change again but this is a big part of why "Africancichlids" is frustrated. 
We get a lot of Africans traded in but most are common and or inbred. We do import more rare africans from time to time but the hobby simply is not strong in that area right now.
One could spend tons of money breeding fantastic Africans but if there is a weak market for them, how much you spend in money and time does not really matter if there are few to buy them.
The comment about keeping KE in business by giving them fish for free is a bit odd. They are likely not giving you anything for them because they don't think they will sell or will take a while to sell. When we take Pacu on donation we price them, they sell eventually after eating me out of house and home. FYI.


----------



## Mferko

i can totally see where tom's coming from about not wanting lfs making money off his back
however, if you give away free fish on here because you cant sell them, and someone takes them and sells them, that means you werent trying hard enough to sell them since there is obv a market for them. if you couldnt sell them, they wont be able to either, and you dont need to worry about them making money off you, theyre going to be wasting money on food trying to sell fish that nobody would buy from you.

even if you sell em cheap, and someone resells, your still getting some cash, and you know where to set your price next time when you see someone else successfully sell it for more. or if you see someone reselling your fish, chances are being a breeder you have more, post them at a lower price than hes reselling and screw the reselling guy over. thats what i'd do.

thats just my 2 cents.


----------



## O.C.D Fishies

TCR said:


> does your local dealer have a good fish return policy?


When you are buying from a breeder there focus is solely fish. When you are buying from a lfs they have many other things going on, such as equipment, food, plants what have you. In this regard breeders put more attention in to fish alone and there fore may have healthier stocks. Healthy good quality fish shouldn't need a return policy. Breeders are aware of the exactly what conditions the fish has been in and the overall health. Where as lfs do not know how the fish have been until they reach there store.

I am not in the least criticizing lfs but stating something that is merely my opinion, take it as you wish.


----------



## AfricanCichlids

Otter said:


> I just can't help but think that's there's something intrinsically wrong with your business model, then. You know what I mean?
> 
> Personally, I've always of the mindset that buying from a local breeder is the most ethical and responsible route. Perhaps you could reflect this in the prices you ask for? I'd _gladly_ pay more for a healthy fish that comes from a responsible breeder, and I know I can't be the only one. At any LFS I'm instantly drawn to any tank that says "Locally bred" because of this.
> 
> But I guess, again, the question comes down to your business model. What are you after, specifically?


our goal from start was the love of africans, and to stir more interest, getting more involved. Hard to do when LFS have no selection at all other than a 3 times a year hair up their butt to order a few in. I have met well over 50 members on this site, and never charged ANYONE over 20 bucks for a FULLY colored RARE african. Purpose of this thread is, I must admit I took a round about way of it, is to allow CONFIRMED breeders of any kind, a section on this forum which we have been part of for many years, and probably contributed to us getting hooked on these bloody fish, so members will know where to go.


----------



## Mferko

local stores should defo carry more africans, more people would probably get into them if there wasnt such a pitiful selection. 
instead theyre full of stupid little 99 cent garbage fish like mollies, most of the tanks arent even worth looking in :/


----------



## 182

Well I can't argue with your goal. I think it's a little silly that local breeders don't have a free area of the forum to share your unique breeds with us. Like I said, even the sponsors would get use out of it because they'd find new local breeders to work with.

Perhaps a few breeders could get together and form a sort of 'collective' to pay the cost of one sponsorship?

Just please stop killing fish.  Heh.


@Mferko - I agree. I think one of the best ways to get people interested are the big showtanks in the store, and all too often I find those populated with neon tetras.


----------



## PatientZero3

BossRoss said:


> am i the only one who thinks this fellow should be lynched?


No im right there with you on that, take them to IPU, or sell them privately. If its too expensive then get out of the hobby


----------



## ibenu

AfricanCichlids said:


> I love stiring up the pot...
> Makes things on here a bit less dull.
> But all said, I do put down a lot of fish, sometimes you just have to make a call to make space for the species you care for most.


No more linch talk guys or your posts will be deleted...

I have culled fish, sick ones I didnt want to spend any more money on.
If I was buying fish from anywhere I would rather they call the ones that are not great, cause when I was "new" I would have bought the crappy culls that went to an LFS.

When I bred angels I culled TONS cause they had missing dangly fins, or short gill plates. I did not however cull for conformation, which I would in future no matter what I breed.

No selling of crappy fish to you guys (private sales) and I would feel like I had poor ethics if I traded them to an LFS were newer people would buy them.. And perpetuate crappy fish.

Talking about lynching or get out of the hobby.. I expect better in the way of dialogue from members here. Please don't disappoint me...


----------



## Kitsune

Ok, so I've thought about this ALL day, and have somewhat changed my mind on this. 

First, I guess I got super emotional, 'cause I don't like to kill my fish, and because this is a forum rather than a organized debate, I didn't really understand where some people were coming from. So it took 7 pages before I really got it.

I've changed my perspective to something I understand better, and that I am just as passionate about: Photography. I suppose if I were to have a SUPER AWESOME photo that I put a lot of effort and time into taking/formatting/printing etc, and posted it on my private online portfolio or sold a few to a select set of clients, then found some guy selling those photos at a market somewhere I would be pissed too. After all those were a select few that I was trying to sell. And not necessarily for profit, but rather as a hobby, and trying to make back some of the money I spent ($6000 and counting). It doesn't matter that I may have 'enriched' the lives of those people (both buyer and seller), they had no right to use my work for profit. 

Same goes for crappy photos or mediocre photos. Even if they were ok photos I probably wouldn't feel right to sell them or put it on my portfolio. I would have no qualms about deleting those photos.

The problem becomes the fact that these are live fish. And I know there is the same problem with dogs. There are breeders that are very passionate about maintaining the breed standard, that they have no problem culling those puppies that don't meet the breed standards (have you ever seen 'Pedigree', a documentary by the BBC? Very interesting and eye opening). 

I still don't agree about culling fish for aesthetics/standards, or culling them because you don't want others who won't appreciate it to have them. However I do understand now where you are coming from, and perhaps if I had spent that much time and effort developing rare and beautiful creatures I would be as protective of my work.


----------



## SophieThomas

I am not a breeder as some of you are that have commented but I do have a few points to make. 

It seems to me that if there was a section for people to advertise their fish at no cost, it would bring very deserved attention to some spectacular breeds and specimens. The income that the breeders would make from this might increase slightly, but it would never compare to the overall cost of keeping fish. Especially 30 tanks worth of fish. It would allow people that love fish to help out and appreciate other people that love fish.

On the subject of culling for confirmation. Like dogs, horses, etc., if there are certain traits that are allowed to persist, the result can be lifelong struggles for the animal. Although culling is rare in dogs and does not happen at all with horse, very selective breeding takes place and animals that are weak in any area get gelded/neutered or never bred. An excellent example of this would be breeding dogs for breed standards (that are not always healthy) rather than for healthy confirmation and temperament. The result can be dangerous dogs or medical problems like hip dysplasia. In fish, respiratory conditions, difficulty swimming, etc.

I think the point of this whole thing is to draw attention to peoples hard work (like a number of people have said) and that is worth doing out of appreciation and respect.


----------



## TCR

I think this whole
thread is off topic. When this happens usually it gets closed


----------



## davefrombc

I wish I could comment in the threads on breeding , selling and what have you ...... But the statements by many on here are so far from reality as far as breeding and selling fish I would get banned for the blast of sh*t I would give to them . You cannot give away a lot of excess fish , you cannot get LFS's to give you even what they pay for the same fish from their wholesalers, and I would be damned if I would make a habit of giving fish to others who are going to take a few and turn around and advertise them for sale , trying to sell those fish to people that may otherwise have been a customer of the original breeder or a LFS . . Sorry , buddies , but it doesn't work that way .. Grow up and learn some reality. 
I know the main ones on here breeding Africans.. I also know the business LFS's have had selling equipment to them ....... and the insults they have offered in return for stock they can make a great deal on selling.
Enough said .. Continue on in your dream world those that can't understand culling excess fish .


----------



## Aquaman

davefrombc said:


> I wish I could comment in the threads on breeding , selling and what have you ...... But the statements by many on here are so far from reality as far as breeding and selling fish I would get banned for the blast of sh*t I would give to them . You cannot give away a lot of excess fish , you cannot get LFS's to give you even what they pay for the same fish from their wholesalers, and I would be damned if I would make a habit of giving fish to others who are going to take a few and turn around and advertise them for sale , trying to sell those fish to people that may otherwise have been a customer of the original breeder or a LFS . . Sorry , buddies , but it doesn't work that way .. Grow up and learn some reality.
> I know the main ones on here breeding Africans.. I also know the business LFS's have had selling equipment to them ....... and the insults they have offered in return for stock they can make a great deal on selling.
> Enough said .. Continue on in your dream world those that can't understand culling excess fish .


Yep what he said...( funny how them old guys, know things )..otherwise all our angle fish would have beaks and discuss well they just wouldn't be disc..us . Not every fish that breeds is the best of the group and have to cull the whole lot . Otherwise by the time you produce a fish YOU are happy with the market is saturated with sub par fish that the normal hobbyist would not notice. 
I had a few dozen 2-3 in red empresses that were not quite good enough as far as coloration and markings.Looked good to me but to a Hobbyist that knows his fish he would know and expect it to be what was advertised.
For sale washed out pointy nosed angle fish 2 bucks while quantity's last . Or better Yet Lets breed discus ...you want them with or with out worms.
I would rather buy from a breeder that cares than one that does not.
Killing fish does not make you a bad person....condeming someone who does with out knowing exactly why ...well you figure it out .

Hey I started on topic


----------



## pistolpete

back to the original topic: Let me let you guys in on a little secret. fish at retail stores are marked up 300 to 400%. The guppy you buy for 2.99 costs about 50 cents wholesale. Fish have to be marked up that much because of the expense of keeping them in costly retail premises, not to mention mortality. 

So if you expect a store owner or manager to give you a "good deal" on fish you bring in, you have to be bringing them a fish that there is demand for and they can sell quickly. You also have to be a "valued customer" with a good relationship with the store. the store I used to work at way back would take "trades" on fish. We would give 1/2 the retail value in store credit. Even so it was a lost leader: a way to keep customers happy.

IMO making money as a local breeder is next to impossible and I feel sorry for anyone who has ever tried it. Trying to compete with fish farms with acres of ponds on cheap realestate and no heating costs takes some sort of financial genius.


----------



## Adz1

When i was breeding silvertip BN plecos i had a LFS take all i could bring in for a fair store credit.
i just don't breed them anymore though now.


----------



## TCR

No comment as I resist being rude. And no I wasn't gonna swear or anything. I just like the forum but not ur neg attitude


----------



## TCR

Adz1 said:


> When i was breeding silvertip BN plecos i had a LFS take all i could bring in for a fair store credit.
> i just don't breed them anymore though now.


Lots of people want a bristle
nose
U were smart


----------



## Ursus sapien

A lfs I deal with has always given me fair value for the fish they buy. What they pay depends on store sales, so what I get varies. If I have a lot of something, I give a bargain. They order things in for me at cost. Ying, yang.
It all goes back into the fish, anyway. This month I sold $40 in bristlenose babies. Yesterday I went to Island Pets and bought $40 in frozen foods. Tonight I'll place an order online for bristlenose wafers from a boutique fish food maker.
Breeding causes a lot of unhappiness at BCA, which is why I've suggested a 'breeder' category a few times in other threads:
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/prob...iasts-not-breeders-resellers-5283/index2.html


----------



## AWW

working at a store that changed ownership out of money problems, you guys should not be blamining the store. Humans have obsession with money, yoursleves aswell as the owners of KE. You need to remember that these stores are retail, they are not hobby baised (usually). As any business, there goal is to make money. If they dont think they can make money off your fish, why would they buy them? If they dont think they can sell them, why would the buy them? Dosnt make sence.

ALSO, you need to remember that in most LFS, fish sit in tanks for weeks and weeks. One of you mentioned that you are getting 200 fry this week, do you think a store front even sells 200 fish ASSORTED(neons not included ) in a week? Now i know some stores can, but it is just not realistic.

Ripping on the forum is also unfair, as this is a HOBBY baised forum. Yes, some money is exchanged on this site between members, but more often then not you get to know the person. Ususally there are no sales pitches, and no real urgency to make money. You should be grateful these threads arnt closed down with how many times you said you had rare high quality africans for sale.

Now, i am sure you are a great fish keeper. You work hard at what you do. But please don't complain to people here. On the note on what xxwheelsxx said, you have to realize that THIS site you are on costs money to upkeep. They get by on donaters. are YOU a donater? I find it funny your not, as you give 10's of thousands of dollars to a local fish store, but you wouldn't give 25 dollars and give a little to other people? You yourself said you wanted to get more people interested in Africans, this is one of the best places out there.

One last thing, dont complain about waisting money on your fish and not getting your money back. Every one spends money on hobbies. Some people collect cars, more expensive than all the money you have spent on fish likley. You get engoyment out of your fish to or why would you keep 30 tanks? 

Back off, as shawn said in the other thread you have our attention, and although a breeding section of the forum could be a cool addition, you have to realize that would take away from the stores that make BCA possible.

On a side note, shawn, you are great. I know its hard to keep everyone happy. I think this site is just fine the way it is content wise. although there are lots of noobies coming abord after the crash, things will bounce back to the way they once were.

Consider that a thank you 

Just my few cents, i would hope you take this into consideration and look at things more Open mindidly and put yourself in others shoes.


----------



## TCR

I enjoyed ur comment.


AWW said:


> working at a store that changed ownership out of money problems, you guys should not be blamining the store. Humans have obsession with money, yoursleves aswell as the owners of KE. You need to remember that these stores are retail, they are not hobby baised (usually). As any business, there goal is to make money. If they dont think they can make money off your fish, why would they buy them? If they dont think they can sell them, why would the buy them? Dosnt make sence.
> 
> ALSO, you need to remember that in most LFS, fish sit in tanks for weeks and weeks. One of you mentioned that you are getting 200 fry this week, do you think a store front even sells 200 fish ASSORTED(neons not included ) in a week? Now i know some stores can, but it is just not realistic.
> 
> Ripping on the forum is also unfair, as this is a HOBBY baised forum. Yes, some money is exchanged on this site between members, but more often then not you get to know the person. Ususally there are no sales pitches, and no real urgency to make money. You should be grateful these threads arnt closed down with how many times you said you had rare high quality africans for sale.
> 
> Now, i am sure you are a great fish keeper. You work hard at what you do. But please don't complain to people here. On the note on what xxwheelsxx said, you have to realize that THIS site you are on costs money to upkeep. They get by on donaters. are YOU a donater? I find it funny your not, as you give 10's of thousands of dollars to a local fish store, but you wouldn't give 25 dollars and give a little to other people? You yourself said you wanted to get more people interested in Africans, this is one of the best places out there.
> 
> One last thing, dont complain about waisting money on your fish and not getting your money back. Every one spends money on hobbies. Some people collect cars, more expensive than all the money you have spent on fish likley. You get engoyment out of your fish to or why would you keep 30 tanks?
> 
> Back off, as shawn said in the other thread you have our attention, and although a breeding section of the forum could be a cool addition, you have to realize that would take away from the stores that make BCA possible.
> 
> On a side note, shawn, you are great. I know its hard to keep everyone happy. I think this site is just fine the way it is content wise. although there are lots of noobies coming abord after the crash, things will bounce back to the way they once were.
> 
> Consider that a thank you
> 
> Just my few cents, i would hope you take this into consideration and look at things more Open mindidly and put yourself in others shoes.


----------



## Aquaman

AWW said:


> working at a store that changed ownership out of money problems, you guys should not be blamining the store. Humans have obsession with money, yoursleves aswell as the owners of KE. You need to remember that these stores are retail, they are not hobby baised (usually). As any business, there goal is to make money. If they dont think they can make money off your fish, why would they buy them? If they dont think they can sell them, why would the buy them? Dosnt make sence.
> 
> ALSO, you need to remember that in most LFS, fish sit in tanks for weeks and weeks. One of you mentioned that you are getting 200 fry this week, do you think a store front even sells 200 fish ASSORTED(neons not included ) in a week? Now i know some stores can, but it is just not realistic.
> 
> Ripping on the forum is also unfair, as this is a HOBBY baised forum. Yes, some money is exchanged on this site between members, but more often then not you get to know the person. Ususally there are no sales pitches, and no real urgency to make money. You should be grateful these threads arnt closed down with how many times you said you had rare high quality africans for sale.
> 
> Now, i am sure you are a great fish keeper. You work hard at what you do. But please don't complain to people here. On the note on what xxwheelsxx said, you have to realize that THIS site you are on costs money to upkeep. They get by on donaters. are YOU a donater? I find it funny your not, as you give 10's of thousands of dollars to a local fish store, but you wouldn't give 25 dollars and give a little to other people? You yourself said you wanted to get more people interested in Africans, this is one of the best places out there.
> 
> One last thing, dont complain about waisting money on your fish and not getting your money back. Every one spends money on hobbies. Some people collect cars, more expensive than all the money you have spent on fish likley. You get engoyment out of your fish to or why would you keep 30 tanks?
> 
> Back off, as shawn said in the other thread you have our attention, and although a breeding section of the forum could be a cool addition, you have to realize that would take away from the stores that make BCA possible.
> 
> On a side note, shawn, you are great. I know its hard to keep everyone happy. I think this site is just fine the way it is content wise. although there are lots of noobies coming abord after the crash, things will bounce back to the way they once were.
> 
> Consider that a thank you
> 
> Just my few cents, i would hope you take this into consideration and look at things more Open mindidly and put yourself in others shoes.


Sheesh !! I don't even know where to begin with that one.  So I will leave it alone.....mostly.
You tell me you have never gotton a free fish off some one on the forum here and not sold it for money ? Never tripled your money on a fish some one brought in ....come on... type it with a straight face 
Hey aren't you the guy that had me drain and move my tank and wait for you to NEVER show up.  ...sheesh !
Out standing !!


----------



## TCR

Aquaman said:


> Sheesh !! I don't even know where to begin with that one.  So I will leave it alone.....mostly.
> You tell me you have never gotton a free fish off some one on the forum here and not sold it for money ? Never tripled your money on a fish some one brought in ....come on... type it with a straight face
> Hey aren't you the guy that had me drain and move my tank and wait for you to NEVER show up.  ...sheesh !
> Out standing !!


I guess u might be a saint then?

Don't really
know the senario but it's happened to me too (from other people)
and I sometimes
do it if I find a better deal or have money issues


----------



## davefrombc

I wasn't about to clue him in on some facts he knows nothing about either Bill.. just let it ride . The threads have done their job for now I think we need to let them cool. There's been a lot said by several that don't know the whole story going back to the old forum... a lot that don't know the hobby well at all.. and no need of any of us trying to set things straight on those accounts.


----------



## TCR

Well I did say it's very off
topic

and for
that fact. I dint
breed my dog unless I had a certain amount of
people to buy pups. I don't breed crap. I breed if there is demand not fair to the actual recipiants of OUR actions


----------



## Smiladon

AfricanCichlids said:


> I would love to sell lfs my extra fish, or at least get a credit....
> Never noticed a thread about this before.. so..
> 
> I tried King Ed's which only took them for free, and sold them for 20 bucks each  ,
> rodgers took a few and gave me a buck each, but they don't really need any, so they say..
> 
> I know many people bring unwanted fish to lfs for free to get rid of them...
> but really, you are biting the hand that feeds you. Don't you think it better to kill the fish, and starve the lfs of FREE supply of fish in order to get them to pay you a fair price or at least trade for other items??


Didnt read the whole 8 pages, but to answer your initial question:

Try fishworld (Langley). They usually take in young fish for cash. Dont expect too much. I got 90cents per fish for 2.5". I know they sell for around $12-$15, but its business for them 

Dont go to KE, they are really cheap. I wouldn't give them my fish for free for the sole reason of them maybe feeding my young ones to their more expensive big fish. [Not saying they do that, I dont know for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did]. Its better to give my fish to free for BCA members than a store.

just my 2.25 cents


----------



## jdm_03

we are a democracy are we not? why not have the members of bcaquaria vote on whether or not there should be a "breeder section" to improve the hobby in our community... I say the fee should also be nominal. why does bcaquaria need more money? U say this is a hobby oriented site, well its the local breeders that stock our tanks and the hobby. When was the last time you went to a LFS to look for a quality specimen? In all likelihood, you went to the local breeder/importer for WCs or F1s.. Not allowing them to post their fish and earn back a small portion of their expenses back, hurts the hobby by strangling its supply.. What do u think these guys are going to do with a little extra pocket change? They are probably going to reinvest in the hobby which means new and interesting fish for us, bcaquaria... These guys are not the LFS so please stop treating them like that.


----------



## effox

Off topic, but:



jdm_03 said:


> I say the fee should also be nominal. why does bcaquaria need more money?


BCA uses donations and sponsorship to pay for hosting and addons\upgrades to the site, not to mention prizes. That's a pretty solid reason why donations and sponsorship is necessary.


----------



## rescuepenguin

effox said:


> Off topic, but:
> 
> BCA uses donations and sponsorship to pay for hosting and addons\upgrades to the site, not to mention prizes. That's a pretty solid reason why donations and sponsorship is necessary.


I agree, running a server is expensive. In the early days he probably lost money running this forum. Now ask his wife how much time he spends working on the forum, the stuff we don't see, things like upgrades as required, writing or buying scripts because members want this, or that. I would say $25 is a good deal for the wealth of info that you have access to.


----------



## Brisch

jdm_03 said:


> we are a democracy are we not? why not have the members of bcaquaria vote on whether or not there should be a "breeder section" to improve the hobby in our community... I say the fee should also be nominal. why does bcaquaria need more money? U say this is a hobby oriented site, well its the local breeders that stock our tanks and the hobby. When was the last time you went to a LFS to look for a quality specimen? In all likelihood, you went to the local breeder/importer for WCs or F1s.. Not allowing them to post their fish and earn back a small portion of their expenses back, hurts the hobby by strangling its supply.. What do u think these guys are going to do with a little extra pocket change? They are probably going to reinvest in the hobby which means new and interesting fish for us, bcaquaria... These guys are not the LFS so please stop treating them like that.


I agree, those who breed or rather have fish that breed are not LFS, they only deal with fish in most cases. They should not have to pay a full sponsorship as they do not have the full LFS setup equipment for sale ect.


----------



## Kitsune

> we are a democracy are we not?


Actually, I don't think we are. 
We have to realize that we don't have the RIGHT to be on this forum and say what we want and demand what we want. We have the PRIVILEGE of being on this forum. A select few have put a lot of time, effort, and money into this forum (I actually don't know 100% who all these people are, but thank you).

People like Nicklfire and the other moderators have put countless hours into trying to make this forum a better place for everyone (by making modifications, monitoring discussions etc).

More importantly they have to take the burden of running this site. Like everyone has said, it takes money to run this site. Essentially this is a business, they need to be able to break even (if suddenly a bunch of sponsors leave because they feel that the forums are not benefiting them, then its those people (Nicklfire, Moderators etc) who now either have to shoulder the cost or close the site down). To say that they are treating people unfairly, or that they don't need any money is an insult to the work they've done in bringing this community together.

On the issue of breeding for profit, there appears to be another thread so I'll post there.

(Sorry moderators! I know this is even going further off topic...)


----------



## Mferko

i dont understand why the breeding thing is such a hot topic. i originally signed up on this forum because i had over 100 yellow tail acei fry i was looking to rehome, they werent seling very fast on kijiji but someone that bought them from me after seeing them on kijiji told me about this forum so i signed up to sell the fry.
i thought thats what this forum was for lol, when it was described to me it was a "place for local hobbiests to exchange info and stock"

weve established that the local breeders are not getting rich off this they just want to see the fish theyve cared for go to good homes... 

i dont think that local breeders selling cheap stock on here hurts lfs either, as april said theyre mostly selling tetras and not african fry. if you get some cheap fry on here you need to then go to the lfs to pick up some food for them or maybe even a new tank/filter/etc etc, theyre still making money... and often cases african fry arent even available in stores so its not like your cutting their grass.

i should add that i met lots of great people here while selling them and thats the reason i stayed, having a good selection of stock from local breeders could bring more members to BCA
also as more of that stock hits the classified prices will go down and the members will be the ones that benefit (plus the fish that were rehomed to another aquarium instead of a bigger fish's stomach)


----------



## TCR

it started with a guy who is breeding fish and cant get rid of the fry and is making a sob story on how he has to kill fry cuz hes over breeding

or so it sounds to me


----------



## Mferko

TCR said:


> it started with a guy who is breeding fish and cant get rid of the fry and is making a sob story on how he has to kill fry cuz hes over breeding
> 
> or so it sounds to me


it sounds like it started before that with people getting banned for selling fish they bred, good thing i didnt get banned and now that i sold my demasoni theres no more regular fry so im safe


----------



## TCR

Mferko said:


> it sounds like it started before that with people getting banned for selling fish they bred, good thing i didnt get banned and now that i sold my demasoni theres no more regular fry so im safe


hmm I've seen peoples fry up for sale on the classifieds from time to time.. not actually sure if they got banned for it...but im not a mod

also Ive sold a lot of fish on craigslist if i cant get what i want for them on here... tho i up the price on craigslist and it usually sells in 2 weeks, its a waiting game


----------



## Mferko

TCR said:


> hmm I've seen peoples fry up for sale on the classifieds from time to time.. not actually sure if they got banned for it...but im not a mod
> 
> also Ive sold a lot of fish on craigslist if i cant get what i want for them on here... tho i up the price on craigslist and it usually sells in 2 weeks, its a waiting game


me too which is why i was wondering it seems alot of people think they have to buy a sponsorship to sell their fry..
i didnt and i didnt get banned...


----------



## Aquaman

TCR said:


> Well I did say it's very off
> topic
> 
> and for
> that fact. I dint
> breed my dog unless I had a certain amount of
> people to buy pups. I don't breed crap. I breed if there is demand not fair to the actual recipiants of OUR actions


And I bet you make a good profit from them as well ...8-12 weeks a few cans of food and out the door they go.
Kinda like comparing apples to oranges isn't it.
I can honestly say I have never fliped a fish and made money from it not a dime . I sold fish to a lfs once..( never paid for them ) so I guees that was once ..I have bought more crap here and lost money on it ( upon selling )some I got use out of some I did not.I have donated a wack of stuff to our tank for tots program . 
The money you get from a lfs will never come close to paying for the fish.I dont care what one you go to.
There is a member here who sold 2 fish for peanuts only to see it marked up 500 % the next day . Yep no money in it for them either


----------



## Mferko

the same store told me my yellow tail acei were "ugly fish that wouldnt sell" so they took some for free and sold them.


----------



## tony1928

I can't imagine why anyone would be banned for selling some fry that they raised. Isn't that all a part of this hobby? If they were set up as a business of breeding fish and selling, and I can't imagine it being a profitable local business model, then i would agree that they should sell on here as a sponsor. But for a typical hobbyist who has a couple of extra tanks that have fish that breed, I see no problems with that. 

As for a receiving a fair price for trade ins, i think people have to consider the true cost of fish that are brought in versus what they might pay for them on a retail basis. They aren't likely to pay you more than what they could buy the fish for wholesale. The LFS has alot of costs to cover not to mention a profit margin that must be achieved for them to even exist.


----------



## Ursus sapien

Mferko said:


> i dont think that local breeders selling cheap stock on here hurts lfs either, as april said theyre mostly selling tetras and not african fry..


I love meeting April in parking lots to buy fish n' things, and going to Patric's (Canadian Aquatics) is a trip to the candy store. The sponsors I've dealt with have consistently given good value, good service and healthy animals/plants.
So, out of respect, I try keep an eye on what they have in stock. For example, I won't sell my long fin white clouds or blue eyed rainbows here on the forum when when our sponsors have those fish in stock (though one sponsor I discussed this with said >>>go ahead! sell away<<<). 
Trading, buying and selling plants and animals with other members is one of the really cool things about belonging to the forum. I really hope we don't loose that.


----------



## Aquaman

Aquaman said:


> I can honestly say I have never fliped a fish and made money from it not a dime . I sold fish to a lfs once..( never paid for them ) so I guees that was once.


 oops ...I forgot that they were almost 2 years old and probably ate at least the 3-4 bucks I got for them in food. ...So darn!! Guess I didnt make any money there either ...

....but at least I got to look at them and change their water 97 times and heat and lights  ...darn again !! 
I suppose there is no place you can sell the fish you raise and make a profit.
I mean if a guy needed money for his dogs operation he could take a thosand bucks worth of fish in and get what ...90 bucks of store credits ....


----------



## donjuan_corn

If you are going to get rid of your fish by killing them because you can't sell them, people would take them for free. If they turn around and find someone to buy them and you get mad at this, why? They are not yours any more, they aren't being killed. If a person makes money off of something you gave out for free that is their choice. I personally don't do this, but if a fish is alive and being enjoyed by another party whether they made money or not it would make it easier on my soul to know that a fish that I couldn't maintain or have room for is being enjoyed by someone.

On the fact of local fish stores, I believe they do what they have to do and they have every right to give you close to nothing for your fish and sell them for higher. What if they don't sell the fish for months? what if the fish they buy from you dies? it's like an investment in a stock, yes you can get a great return, but you can also lose it all.

On the breeders that kull I think the word is, so that they only keep the best looking fish. If you put fish with defections or not up to standards for free, I bet you that someone with low income that can't afford $50 discus would take one with a smaller than normal fin or defection and have them in their tank to enjoy them, there would be someone who would. Someone always will take the runt of a litter and appreciate them.

If I sell something for $2 or even give it away for free, and then that person sells something for $10? I sold it in the first place or gave it away and that person now owns it. What they do with it is up to them, but I bet you the person who paid $10 isn't going to kill the damn fish and knowing that someone is enjoying something I gave away is enough for me.

Local fish stores is a last resort if I can't find a home for my fish, but I would rather someone come and take them off of me for free because the trip to the fish store would cost more in gas and time.


----------



## Mferko

Ursus sapien said:


> I love meeting April in parking lots to buy fish n' things, and going to Patric's (Canadian Aquatics) is a trip to the candy store. The sponsors I've dealt with have consistently given good value, good service and healthy animals/plants.
> So, out of respect, I try keep an eye on what they have in stock. For example, I won't sell my long fin white clouds or blue eyed rainbows here on the forum when when our sponsors have those fish in stock (though one sponsor I discussed this with said >>>go ahead! sell away<<<).
> Trading, buying and selling plants and animals with other members is one of the really cool things about belonging to the forum. I really hope we don't loose that.


agreed april has a fantastic store and shes a great person, i wouldnt want the local breeding section on the forum to hurt people like that.
ive visited the stores of many of the sponsors here and recently i noticed that the pets and pond sponsor has great prices on tubs of NLS pellets so thats where i'll get them next.
buying more fish means i need to buy more stuff for the fish and for that i go to the sponsors 

imagine all the lace rock lfs can sell if we get everyone hooked on africans lol, my rock was over 80 bucks for a measly 37g


----------



## neven

Well this thread definately all over the place. This is what i've gleaned from it

1) Breeding sucks, costs lots, mostly done on a hobby basis, similar to those who grow plants and keep selling the clippings. You make pocket change back that doesn't compare to the indirect costs. It was banned to sell here because one person went to far, ie cut the head off to cure the heachache sort of scenerio. Now all breeders are thrown into the same boat as retail outlets, despite no profit.

2) I thought this forum was an all inclusive place for regional hobbyists, apparently i was wrong, and many want this fixed to reinclude the breeders. Whether its being fixed or not remains to be seen, as its been done in private.

3) Those of us who came after the site crash are seen as a problem and frowned upon by many of the long time members.

4) The Sponsors are seen as the people who make this site what it is, not the people who've spent hours upon hours almost daily here helping and providing information and networking with others in the hobby. Not a jab at the sponsors, they do help keep this site running, but so do the donators and those of us who cant afford to be a donator but contribute in other ways.

5) People think that this online community is a business. That mindset is flawed. I've created many online communities through the years, i know the cost of hosting, its not much, and usually a handful donators take care of it. This site is mostly database with little media hosted on here, meaning the storage and bandwidth would be a lot lower than you think. Donating is a means to thank the admin for keeping this site going, to keep it updated security wise (and babysit his moderators). Forums are usually created because the person hosting has an interest and shares it with others, not for commercial purposes. Sponsorship here is simply advertising rights and the right to use this venue to secure RETAIL sales, it should not give a right to dictate the direction of this community. It may not be a democracy, but i chose to be here, as did many others, they need to be respected just as much as the sponsors.

6) Yes breeders do cull their stock, its a must when you do that. Quit acting all high and mighty about it. If there were no culls this hobby would be filled with sideways swimming fish, curved spines and gimped fins.

So thats it for me in this thread, it was an eye opener for me and probably to others aswell. Asked me before if i would support breeders using the site's classifieds, i'd say no. But after learning that in most cases these breeders just do it out of hobby with no profit to be had, i'd say sure, but have guidelines. ie. breeder rank, double the donator cost, their own sales section they share together, with a thread for each breeder, this way its not constant spam of new stock available.


----------



## Aquaman

neven said:


> Well this thread definately all over the place. This is what i've gleaned from it
> 
> 1) Breeding sucks, costs lots, mostly done on a hobby basis, similar to those who grow plants and keep selling the clippings. You make pocket change back that doesn't compare to the indirect costs. It was banned to sell here because one person went to far, ie cut the head off to cure the heachache sort of scenerio. Now all breeders are thrown into the same boat as retail outlets, despite no profit.
> 
> 2) I thought this forum was an all inclusive place for regional hobbyists, apparently i was wrong, and many want this fixed to reinclude the breeders. Whether its being fixed or not remains to be seen, as its been done in private.
> 
> 3) Those of us who came after the site crash are seen as a problem and frowned upon by many of the long time members.
> 
> 4) The Sponsors are seen as the people who make this site what it is, not the people who've spent hours upon hours almost daily here helping and providing information and networking with others in the hobby. Not a jab at the sponsors, they do help keep this site running, but so do the donators and those of us who cant afford to be a donator but contribute in other ways.
> 
> 5) People think that this online community is a business. That mindset is flawed. I've created many online communities through the years, i know the cost of hosting, its not much, and usually a handful donators take care of it. This site is mostly database with little media hosted on here, meaning the storage and bandwidth would be a lot lower than you think. Donating is a means to thank the admin for keeping this site going, to keep it updated security wise (and babysit his moderators). Forums are usually created because the person hosting has an interest and shares it with others, not for commercial purposes. Sponsorship here is simply advertising rights and the right to use this venue to secure RETAIL sales, it should not give a right to dictate the direction of this community. It may not be a democracy, but i chose to be here, as did many others, they need to be respected just as much as the sponsors.
> 
> 6) Yes breeders do cull their stock, its a must when you do that. Quit acting all high and mighty about it. If there were no culls this hobby would be filled with sideways swimming fish, curved spines and gimped fins.
> 
> So thats it for me in this thread, it was an eye opener for me and probably to others aswell. Asked me before if i would support breeders using the site's classifieds, i'd say no. But after learning that in most cases these breeders just do it out of hobby with no profit to be had, i'd say sure, but have guidelines. ie. breeder rank, double the donator cost, their own sales section they share together, with a thread for each breeder, this way its not constant spam of new stock available.


Best post of the thread !!

I think that if you bring fish ( and anything else for that matter ) in to resell then You should have to be a sponser ...If you are selling fish ( and only fish ) that have breed in your care then your a hobbiest.I think the only thing a breeder should be able to sell are fish hes raised ( got some pics of mom and dad and the kids ? ) and possibly the food they require. ( NOTE : I only add that as the cichlids I have are acustomed to his food  ).
I am pretty sure that any over stock could and would be offered to the sponsers at a very good price. Kinda like you scratch my back I will scratch yours...


----------



## Mferko

agreed great post neven, sums it up nicely


----------



## davefrombc

Well put Neven


----------



## BossRoss

Aquaman said:


> Best post of the thread !!
> 
> I think that if you bring fish ( and anything else for that matter ) in to resell then You should have to be a sponser ...If you are selling fish ( and only fish ) that have breed in your care then your a hobbiest.I think the only thing a breeder should be able to sell are fish hes raised ( got some pics of mom and dad and the kids ? ) and possibly the food they require. ( NOTE : I only add that as the cichlids I have are acustomed to his food  ).
> I am pretty sure that any over stock could and would be offered to the sponsers at a very good price. Kinda like you scratch my back I will scratch yours...


good idea bill.


----------



## ibenu

Im shutting er down. It would appear everyones had their say..Hopes you all have a great day!!


----------

