# Which ferts for EI? Conflicting sources...



## rdale2 (Nov 16, 2011)

Hi all,

First of all I apologize if this has been asked. I looked it up but could not find it. Basically, I'm going to be starting an EI dosing regime for my 29G tank that has pressurized CO2 and 2x65W CF lights. There are TONS of articles on EI dosing regimes out there but there seem to be some discrepancies...

Here is the most common one, and the one I'm looking at:
(Planted Tank Forum)
20~40gal
50% H20 change-weekly
1/4 Tsp-KN03 3x a week
1/16 Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
1/2 Tsp-GH booster once a week 
5ml or 1/16Tsp-Trace 3x a week

For this one, in the rest of the post the author talks about K2SO4 as well but does not mention it in the example schedule. Do you need to add it? I've read that there will be enough K from the KNO3 and KH2PO4. However, if that were true then why do other people feel the need to add it in as well? The sticky on this site says:

(BC Aquaria)
20-40 Gallons (76-152 litres) 
20ml solution or 1/4 tsp KNO3 3x a week 
12ml solution or 1/16 tsp KH2PO4 3x a week 
5ml solution or 1/16 tsp K2SO4 3x a week 
5ml or 1/16 tsp traces 3x a week

The other schedule I found was:
(UK APS)
Sunday - 50% water change, [3/16 tsp KNO3] + [1/16 tsp KH2PO4] + [½ tsp MgSO4]
Monday - 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Tuesday - [3/16 tsp KNO3] + [1/16 tsp KH2PO4] + [½ tsp MgSO4]
Wednesday - 1/16 tsp CSM+B
Thursday - [3/16 tsp KNO3] + [1/16 tsp KH2PO4] + [½ tsp MgSO4]
Friday - Rest
Saturday - Rest

I like this one because it has Mg, and I think that my tap water has a pretty low GH (around 2-4) so maybe this would help? I also have some Seachem Equilibrium that I could add on water changes.

Basically it seems that KNO3 and KH2PO4 are absolutely essential. But, what about K2SO4 and MgSO4? If I were to add those as well, how much?

Also, my lighting is pretty high in terms of WPG (~4.5). Should I be upping the doses? Would you guys recommend getting test kits? I've heard that they can be pretty inaccurate and the whole point of EI is to dose more than you need anyways.

Thanks everyone in advance.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

They are essentially identical. 3/16 is only 1/16 less than 1/4 and it's pretty difficult to find 1/16 spoons so hence the 1/4 spoon. EI assumes dosing sufficient to have more than enough so either will be fine. As for the Mg, that's from a GH booster or Epsom salts. I personally don't dose Mg or Ca (you need to dose Ca also) except when I does the GH booster right after a water change. If you dose planted of KNO3 and KH2PO4 there'll be plenty of K. K2SO4 is strictly for K so some people who dose on the low end for P and N will dose for K, but usually it's not necessary. 

I also do 2 to 3 wc's a water in several of my tanks because of high organic load (plecos) or discus (high load plus body slime) so I dose quite heavy in K and lighter in N and P. It does seem confusing in the beginning, but you get a feel for your tank and then you don't have to dose as much so that you're not just flushing your ferts down the drain.


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## alexbn024 (Mar 9, 2012)

Hi, I am using the source from Tom Barr's (he is one of EI's creators) website:

20-40 Gallon Aquariums 
+/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/16 tsp (5ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
+/- 1/2 tsp GH booster once a week(water change only) I am using Seachem Equilibrium, this way I am getting Mg and can keep my GH around 5-6 (personal preference)
50% weekly water change

For now, I am using Seachem liquid line, and conversion I use is as follows:

20-40gal 
1/4 tsp KNO3 - NO3 = 5.27 ppm
1/16 tsp KH2PO4 - PO4 = 1.61 ppm
Combined amount of K = 3.98 ppm

Seachem's Flourish line
F. Nitrogen - 12.1 mL = 5.27 ppm
F. Phosphorus - 53.9 mL = 1.60 ppm
F. Potassium - 6.1 mL = 3.98 ppm

I do not use WPG for light, I do use PAR values, and in my 20G case I have ~200micromoles/m2/sec at substrate level. I do not use any tests(besides typical water quality ones, Ph, Am, Nitrites/Nitrates) and my major indicator is the behavior of critters and growth rate of my plants, and of course, presence of algae. If I am happy with the growth rate and critters are not suffocating from CO2, I am happy 









Why do you want to up your lighting? Any particular reason?


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## rdale2 (Nov 16, 2011)

alexbn024 said:


> Hi, I am using the source from Tom Barr's (he is one of EI's creators) website:
> 
> 20-40 Gallon Aquariums
> +/- ¼ tsp KN03 3x a week
> ...


Thanks for your response. I originally tried the Tom Barr method but ended up having a huge green water algae bloom and some sub-optimal growth results. I'm thinking that the algae bloom may have been due to the fact that it happened when the tank was 1 month old. As for the sub-optimal plant growth, I bought a Coralife 2x65W PCF fixture thinking that the more light the better. I also wanted to grow a HC carpet and heard that you need high light for that. Looking back I think I might have gone overkill with the lights. Maybe the plants were sucking up the nutrients too fast and then starving? I might try shutting down one of the bulbs and only running one at a time.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

rdale2 said:


> Thanks for your response. I originally tried the Tom Barr method but ended up having a huge green water algae bloom and some sub-optimal growth results. I'm thinking that the algae bloom may have been due to the fact that it happened when the tank was 1 month old. As for the sub-optimal plant growth, I bought a Coralife 2x65W PCF fixture thinking that the more light the better. I also wanted to grow a HC carpet and heard that you need high light for that. Looking back I think I might have gone overkill with the lights. Maybe the plants were sucking up the nutrients too fast and then starving? I might try shutting down one of the bulbs and only running one at a time.


Green water is not from lack of nutrients, but excessive nutrients and light. The initial setup of a tank is when it's seeking balance? What's your substrate, ADA? If it is, you should have been doing daily or every other day water changes in the first 2 weeks as ADA leaches a lot of ammonia, which would have been the cause of your green water, combine with your 130 w of light. And it's not really the Tom Barr method, it's just plain ol' EI. EI is not that precise. It relies on dosing excesses such that you never do without and the big wc to do the fert dosing correction. You're wise to cut the light back. With 65 w PC light you should be able to growing pretty much anything with ADA and EI dosing. What you need to do is concentrate on your CO2. If you're not using a drop checker and this is your first rodeo (Pressurized CO2 setup) then I would highly recommend getting one until you get a good feel on how much CO2 is enough.


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## alexbn024 (Mar 9, 2012)

Hi there, my first month was a disaster  I ended up with huge population of Audouinella and that green water algae bloom, same what you had. That time, I cut my dosing in half, did large water changes, literally 80-90% every two days and did a lot of manual algae cleaning. I also was playing with CO2 and was not even able to set it up to the value I wanted. But, in few weeks, everything cleared out as fast as it appeared, and my tank was fully cycled. After that, I gradually increased dosing and CO2 and I was able to get to my current growth rate in about 3 weeks.

As for HC, I personally do not have much experience with growing it. I had it in my 5G, it was doing fine, but I decided to go low tech there and sold it. What I remember is that it is a CO2 indicator, and requires good CO2 distribution in the tank. From what I read, It grows in the emerged form (where CO2 is limitless) in many cases better then in submerged form (CO2 is limited by livestock, e.i. O2/CO2 balance). Take a look here Par vs distance-t5-t12-pc. if your fixture is ~ 20in from substrate, you should be in the 100+ PAR, which in theory (assuming enough CO2) should be suitable for HC (take that with grain of salt  )


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## rdale2 (Nov 16, 2011)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Green water is not from lack of nutrients, but excessive nutrients and light. The initial setup of a tank is when it's seeking balance? What's your substrate, ADA? If it is, you should have been doing daily or every other day water changes in the first 2 weeks as ADA leaches a lot of ammonia, which would have been the cause of your green water, combine with your 130 w of light. And it's not really the Tom Barr method, it's just plain ol' EI. EI is not that precise. It relies on dosing excesses such that you never do without and the big wc to do the fert dosing correction. You're wise to cut the light back. With 65 w PC light you should be able to growing pretty much anything with ADA and EI dosing. What you need to do is concentrate on your CO2. If you're not using a drop checker and this is your first rodeo (Pressurized CO2 setup) then I would highly recommend getting one until you get a good feel on how much CO2 is enough.


The substrate is Eco-Complete. I'm not sure if it leaches the same as ADA but I was only doing water changes once a week. I'm doing them now once a week, sometimes twice/week. I ended up getting a UV sterilizer and it cleared the green water up practically over night which was a nice surprise! I do have a drop checker (little white thing on the left in the picture) and it seems to be green, although it's pretty hard to tell sometimes. I also have my CO2 system running on a timer with solenoid so that it turns on an hour before the lights and off 30 mins after the lights. I think I'm going to have another go with the EI method, but perhaps this time using only 65W of light and instead of Flourish Trace (which I was using before) I'm going to try Plantex CSM+B because it has some iron in it as well.

Thanks for your help so far! If you've got any other tips feel free to send them over. Growing plants is so much more challenging than having a fish-only tank! A lot more fun though IMO!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

EC will not leach ammonia like ADA. With the exception of ADA, most planted tank substrates are only high CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) substrates, so that they will uptake the nutrients and hold it for use as required by the plants, which make them more useful than plain old gravel or sand. ADA is unique in that it actively leaches those nutrients in the beginning, in the crucial stages, where plants are taking root and recovering from emersed growth, etc.

In the beginning of a planted tank, especially a CO2 injected one, things are changing rapidly to try and reach equilibrium, so the large and frequent water changes help to transport the excess nutrients away.

EI with Flourish (not Flourish trace) would be fine. Some like CSM+B. I switched to CSM+B because it was cheaper. Going with lower light is a good idea. With CO2, you frequently will find that plants grow better with lower light, as it's not CO2 limited. You're not constantly struggling with impending algae disaster.

One thing about the CO2 injection. Turning it on before the lights is good, but after the lights are off is bad. To help your fish out, turn the CO2 off BEFORE the lights go out, since plants switch to uptake of O2 instead of CO2 in the absence of light, so you're penalizing your fish twice. At the very least, turn them both off at the same time.

I've posted this link before. Some of the information is a bit biased, and some people don't like his tone, but it's a comprehensive look at the different stages of a planted tank. A very useful read.
Frank's ADA's 20th Anniversary! CHALLENGE How to Master Planted Tanks Journal


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

kellypinto said:


> One concern I have with Flourish is that the source of N in Flourish might include urea. I'm not 100% sure.


Flourish has 0.07% N, in other words, no appreciable N. EI is based on having enough (and even excess) of everything and the large regular water changes to reset the system. So I don't see how you can use 15 ml of Flourish to arrive at the amount of N dosed in a quarter tsp of KNO3.


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