# Seeking help: plants doing worse again



## janesc2003 (Dec 11, 2011)

65G tank, lighting (coralife 96W X2, 10,000K, 4 hours on-2 hours off-4 hours on), PH between 7.2-7.5, GH 4, KH 3, started doing EI dosing two weeks ago and weekly 50% water change.

Java moss, Java fern have some new sprouts coming out with clear tips. Hornwort stops dropping needles but looks yellower than before. I added a capful of seachem flourish and a capful of seachem excel yesterday. This morning as I checked out my plants, nearly half duckweed turned yellow overnight. What's the cause? And a bamboo-like floating plant of mine keeps yellowing till all green leaves become all clear. What's wrong with it? There's also some algae growing along the air tube. 

Need advice to get these problems solved. Thanks in advance.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

CO2 or not? What macros are you dosing? What are your other measurements? Nitrates, phosphates, etc.? Fish load? You're only providing us with half the information.


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## janesc2003 (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been dosing Plantex CSM+B, Potassium Nitrate KN03, Monopotassium Phosphate KH2PO4, Potassium Sulphate K2S04, seachem excel and seachem flourish. I have no CO2 setup of any kind. The Nitrates of water column is about 80ppm, Nitrite is between 0-0.25ppm and Amonia is between 0-0.25ppm according to the test this afternoon before a major water change. Don't know the phosphates as I have no test kit for it. There are about 25-30 guppies inside this 65 G tank. Thanks.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok, based on that information, it's highly likely that the amount of light (which is pretty significant) is way to much to be handled by dosing Excel. How much and how often are you dosing Excel? I would suggest halving the light if possible, or raising it to lower the amount of light reaching the plants.


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## liquid_krystale (Dec 13, 2011)

It's unfortunate to hear that your plants are still not doing too well. Sometimes there might be a bit of time for newly introduced plants to adjust to your water parameters and die off a bit before they start flourishing. At least that's been my experience, but maybe b/c my water parameters and macro/micro levels are not ideal.

When I first transferred my java fern from my smaller tank to my current one they exhibited the same symptoms...brown holes, dying leaves, etc. Same with the anubias nana...didn't grow at all, but the roots also rotted. It took a good 1.5 months but now the fern isn't dying any more and I see new roots and one new leaf coming out of the anubias. Maybe just do what you're doing, give it some time, and implement some of the awesome advice the other forum members give you.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong. These CF 96W bulbs are not that efficient and the reflectors are not that efficient either. Kind of puzzling. The only thing I can think of would be 2 things. How old are the bulbs? Maybe if they are old, change them to 6700K for proper spectrum. Also, I know some people do the "lights off" period in between the photo period. Personally I don't do that. Plants need a few hours of light for proper photosynthesis to start kicking in and so if you have the lights shut off after only 4 hrs then off for 2 hrs and then on again for 4 hrs.. Imho plants are not getting the right photo period time they require in this manner. Maybe 5 hrs as the minimum photo period time in between. Can't you just do 8 hrs straight?
Just curious also about how often you dose Excel?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Captured Moments said:


> Correct me if I am wrong. These CF 96W bulbs are not that efficient and the reflectors are not that efficient either.


Doesn't have to be that efficient. No CO2, almost 200 watts. Even if they were spiral bulbs that's a lot of light. I'm lighting up entire basement with less light than that.


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## AquaSox (Jun 9, 2010)

Captured Moments said:


> Correct me if I am wrong. These CF 96W bulbs are not that efficient and the reflectors are not that efficient either. Kind of puzzling. The only thing I can think of would be 2 things. How old are the bulbs? Maybe if they are old, change them to 6700K for proper spectrum. Also, I know some people do the "lights off" period in between the photo period. Personally I don't do that. Plants need a few hours of light for proper photosynthesis to start kicking in and so if you have the lights shut off after only 4 hrs then off for 2 hrs and then on again for 4 hrs.. Imho plants are not getting the right photo period time they require in this manner. Maybe 5 hrs as the minimum photo period time in between. Can't you just do 8 hrs straight?
> Just curious also about how often you dose Excel?


I agree with you on the efficiency issue...she has close to 3 wpg, but that does not mean that much. Check this link: one person has a Coralife fixture at 3.25 Wpg and is getting very low PAR at the substrate level and NOTHING except moss is growing there at the bottom. I'm not saying that CO2 shouldn't be added, but the light may not be adequate either.

link...you have to scroll down a bit:
PAR data collection - Dallas Ft Worth Aquatic Plant Club - Aquatic Plant Central

janesc- you may not be getting enough light in all areas of your tank.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Ok, based on that information, it's highly likely that the amount of light (which is pretty significant) is way to much to be handled by dosing Excel. How much and how often are you dosing Excel? I would suggest halving the light if possible, or raising it to lower the amount of light reaching the plants.


You think there is too much light? I am puzzled myself because I used to have 2 of those Freshwater Aqualight 65W on my 20 gal planted. 130 watts on a 20 gal. tank. When my Co2 tank runs out and for the time it takes me to have it refilled when I can, I used Metricide as a substitute until I had my tank refilled. Sometimes for a few weeks period. Plants grew fine although much slower than with Co2, all other factors being equal. Maybe it is because my bulbs are too old and are not as powerful anymore. What do you think?
Even though I still believe that liquid carbon can handle the light, I agree that the light level is more than adequate to grow the type of plants she has and it wouldn't hurt to try to lessen the intensity of the light to drive things down and give the liquid carbon more of a chance to be assimilated by the plants. Especially if the plants are under adjustment/dormancy/stress period and they require time to recover.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Captured Moments said:


> You think there is too much light? I am puzzled myself because I used to have 2 of those Freshwater Aqualight 65W on my 20 gal planted. 130 watts on a 20 gal. tank. When my Co2 tank runs out and for the time it takes me to have it refilled when I can, I used Metricide as a substitute until I had my tank refilled. Sometimes for a few weeks period. Plants grew fine although much slower than with Co2, all other factors being equal. Maybe it is because my bulbs are too old and are not as powerful anymore. What do you think?
> Even though I still believe that liquid carbon can handle the light, I agree that the light level is more than adequate to grow the type of plants she has and it wouldn't hurt to try to lessen the intensity of the light to drive things down and give the liquid carbon more of a chance to be assimilated by the plants. Especially if the plants are under adjustment/dormancy/stress period and they require time to recover.


It's different in a 20 gallon. Let's give a different example. Let's put 3 wpg PC light on my 125 gallon. So that's 700 watts or so. Doesn't that sound like a lot of light to you? Watts per gallon is meaningless in tanks 20 gallons and below and 75 gallons and above. The yellow leaves tells the obvious tale that there is a lack of nutrients in the water. Many think that Glute is a substitute for CO2. It's not. It's a good alternative. Plants need to work much harder to utilize the carbon in Glute compared to the carbon in CO2. I'm sure it can be done, but I'm also pretty sure the OP is not dosing enough Glute to supply the required carbon at the rate that the lighting requires. If you look at the list of plants, they are low light, high growth plants. I'm growing hundreds of leaves of java fern in my 125 gallon with only the Marineland LED lights and a very low rate of CO2 injection. Besides the uptake problems, why light up a 20,30, 40 gallon with 200 watts of light? When I did a 20 gallon with a 65 W Coralife PC light, I was pruning Java Fern 4 times a week which amounted to about a lb of it a week. Unless you're going to sell this stuff or if it's edible, what's the point of that?

Edit: I reread your posts and essentially we're saying the same thing, so sorry for the diatribe. Still need more caffeine.


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## Captured Moments (Apr 22, 2010)

Without a par meter to accurately measure the amount of useful light under any light condition I agree the watts per gallon rule is nothing more than just a rough guide, higher wpg on the small tanks and lower wpg on the larger tanks. I want to ask the original OP about her dosing regimen. How much and how often the dosage as well as the CSM+B dosing. and how much and how often of the Excel. is being dosed... could be something overlooked or misunderstood so that we can help the OP. A full tank shot would be nice if possible.


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## tang daddy (Apr 21, 2010)

I would like to start off by saying, I sold this member plants later last year and upon doing so tried to help her with some knowledge on keeping planted tanks.

Back then her tank was new and she was going to transfer from a smaller tank to a 65g. Because she was using gravel as substrate and it was all new there wasn't any nutrients in the tank. I told her to keep it simple and keep the water alittle bit dirtier so the plants would have some nutrients to suck up. Fast foward to a few months later and I still see the same problem. It hurts me to see members wanting a simple planted tank yet spending time and money to get everything and still won't work.

It's not the end of the world but just alot of time and money wasted on such a basic planted tank.

Plants are not that expensive and most can bounce back aslong as they aren't melting.

I really feel you don't need all the ferts you have but since you bought it it's alittle too late.

Here are a few simple instructions to help you along the way.

I feel your water is too clean and not enough of a bioload to sustain the basic plants, get some dirty sponge filter squeezing and add it to your water. Because you have guppies they are hardy and alittle bit of waste is not a big deal.
Hold off on dosing fancyferts and just keep it basic for a month, see how the plants do. If the plants don't bounce back you can always try adding a few more. For waterchanges only do a 20% bi weekly waterchange and feed the fish sparingly. Make sure your ph is neutral and don't dose flourish. The clear leaves you are experiencing is a combo of a number of things, lack of nutrients and possibly burning from the excel. The reason why I use ADA soil in all my tanks is because once cycled and stable I don't have to dose anything. Infact I hardly do waterchanges only top ups and the plants do fine with little or no care at all.

If you ever make your way out to Richmond let me know and I will throw you a few clipping of stem plants, you can pm me if you'd like.

I hope things turn around for you, sorry to hear about your misfortune.


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

Hello. aren't 10k bulbs for saltwater ? when i went to get a new plant light, they said 10k is too bright for plants and i need the 67k bulbs. Cheers


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## liquid_krystale (Dec 13, 2011)

Blue actinic bulbs are for salt water only. There are some who use the 10 K bulbs. The main difference is visible colour, with 6700 K being warmer and 10 K being cooler.

Most info I've read state that 10 K lights are just fine for growing plants.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

I am going to agree with bulbs. From what I have read 6500k - 6700k is what plants are after. I run 1x 10k and 3x 6700k. I didnt have CO2 before but lots of light and my plants did fine. So Try switching 1 of the bulbs to a 6700k. Write the date on the end of the bulb so you know how old it is. They need to be replaced once a year. Im not a big fan of the lights on for a couple of hours than off, than back on again. I have read good things about doing that but personally I run mine on a timer for a steady 8hrs. Maybe go borrow a book from a library on aquarium plants. It will help you for sure.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

the siesta (light off period mid day) has never helped prevent algae growth in my tanks, in the end i always found that a uninterrupted photo period between 7-9 hours worked best depending on the tank.


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