# Sutiable Substrate For Discus Comunity Tank



## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

Hello. So when i set up my 130g i want to have the best substrate for the fish i have. So it will be a community tank with the same fish i have in my 55g just more of them, and i want to stay planted so what do you think ? i figure plant dirt and sand would work best but not sure. especially interested in what Discus keepers have to say. Cheers


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

I am not sure about plant "dirt" but sand would be fine. Make sure you have some bottom cleaner to pick up some of the waste.


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

gklaw said:


> I am not sure about plant "dirt" but sand would be fine. Make sure you have some bottom cleaner to pick up some of the waste.


Hello. i chose the dirt cause i need something to feed the plants slowly so i don't have to use plant food, not sure if dirt is best but have seen it in other discus setups. as for bottom feeders, corydoras, snails and bnp. Cheers


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

With a planted setup as mentioned already,and the size of the aquarium to match,the expensive plant substrates may cost a bit to add. Going half and half and substituting something else like sand for example may help you out setup and cost wise.As for the Discus, keeping substrates below '2 inches is something i did in the past and currently.These are just my experiences iam sharing with you,and sure others will chime in here with discus and tell their own.Sand has been my choice,and found easier to clean and work with.Discus dont like 'high nitrates' in their water,and this has to be observed and monitored maintaince wise.Too much waste,decaying plant matter, or food trapped some where may rise these perimeters.Vacumming the substrate has to be done,but as the same time not disturb the roots of the plants.As for bottom feeders, these guys will re decorate to their own liking, so any plants have to be planted securely and in some spots deeply depending on the plant species.Make sure to add a huge 'open area' that your discus could use and swim about,you dont want them stuffed in a corner or hidden all the time.Lights periods are another thing to consider, my wilds didnt appreciate the high output light i was using for my plants,and actually down graded to old T8 bulbs and shorter periods in the end, and gave up on the plants.Iam sure providing some shade either by floating plants,longer steamed plants, or shorter lighting periods will benefit them.Be wise with your ferts,Co2,etc when having discus,any sudden changes can have effects on them too.


Iam not here to tell you cant be successfull with a planted/discus setup, many have been but it does take time,effort,consistancy,and above all patience to succeed.Good luck with your new setup!Post some pics when your done!


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Luke has given you some very practical suggestions that have worked extremely well for me too over the years. Pool filter sand is a great substrate for a community planted discus tank - I've been using it for years with very good results, using root tab ferts, as well as liquid or dry ferts in the water column, and moderate light without CO2.
As Luke said, a good vacuuming routine is essential with each wc (I do 2 -3 wcs a week).
It's easy to keep clean, looks good, is just great for the discus and any bottom-dwellers such as Cories. His last sentence above is the key to success with sand - use it at a depth of no more than 2-3 inches.
Here's the look of my tank to give you an idea of what it may look like in your tank if you decide to give it a go:
Sept2011 pictures by discuspaul - Photobucket
Should you opt for PFS, I'd be happy to give you a few pointers on how to keep it looking clean and sharp on an ongoing basis.
Best of luck to you, whatever you decide to do.


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> Luke has given you some very practical suggestions that have worked extremely well for me too over the years. Pool filter sand is a great substrate for a community planted discus tank - I've been using it for years with very good results, using root tab ferts, as well as liquid or dry ferts in the water column, and moderate light without CO2.
> As Luke said, a good vacuuming routine is essential with each wc (I do 2 -3 wcs a week).
> It's easy to keep clean, looks good, is just great for the discus and any bottom-dwellers such as Cories. His last sentence above is the key to success with sand - use it at a depth of no more than 2-3 inches.
> Here's the look of my tank to give you an idea of what it may look like in your tank if you decide to give it a go:
> ...


Hello. That's an awesome tank Paul. thanks for the info. this is a tank that monkE set up. pic from the tank journals. i really like this set up and would like to do something similar. and 2 inch deep substrate is fine, but wondering why you need a certain depth ? also lets hear it, I'm a sponge and will adsorb anything i can to better my tanks, fish or plants. Cheers


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Hi Scherb -
Thanks - I like my tank, even though it's simple & low-tech, but it's sure easy to maintain properly and looks reasonably good. The sand depth should be no more than you need in the planted areas for rooted plants to properly take hold - and that's no more than 2" or so, up to 3", but no more. Mine slopes down to about 1" at the front. You don't want more than 3", cause then you run a much higher risk of anaerobic gas pockets forming in the areas that are not continually stirred up on a regular basis.

Couple of very simple pointers for keeping sand clean & looking good:
With each wc, stir up the sand well in all the open, exposed areas, just to mix in/remove any dirt/detritus and any light algae film, which may build up from time to time. Then, about every 4 to 6 months or so, siphon out the top level of sand for disposal, about 15% to 20% say, and replace that with the same amount of new sand - presto - just like new.
The sand in the pics of my tank is what I put in over a year and a half before, and I've only replaced a portion of the sand twice in all that time.
Hope this helps. It's simple, but effective.


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Scherb said:


> ...and 2 inch deep substrate is fine, but wondering why you need a certain depth ? also lets hear it, I'm a sponge and will adsorb anything i can to better my tanks, fish or plants. Cheers


Having too deep of substrate such as sand opens a chapters on problems. What kind of problems you ask?

"*What about anaerobic pockets?*

If organic material gets buried below the top 2 cm of sand, it can potentially turn nasty. Anaerobic decay is where bacteria consume the organic materia without using oxygen but producing gases such as hydrogen sulphide. Such gases can kill fish.

However, you can reduce the risk to zero by doing any one of a number of simple things:
-Use a thin layer of sand. Obviously if the layer of sand is only 1 cm deep, then anaerobic conditions cannot develop.
-Add burrowing fish. Things like Synodontis, Awaous gobies, kuhli loaches, and eartheater cichlids will turnover the sand constantly and remove any overlooked food. By sifting the sand, they also prevent anaerobic pockets from developing, so things like plant leaves and fish faeces decay aerobically.
Use Malayan livebearing snails. They will constantly turn over the sand, letting oxygen get in, and will also eat up any bits of waste that gets into the sand. These snails are a true blessing in the sandy aquarium!
-Use live plants. The roots of plants have evolved to live in dysaerobic or anaerobic substrates, and carry oyxgen from the water into the substrate. This keeps the substrate sweet. You won't get anaerobic decay in a well-planted aquarium.
-Use an undergravel heater. Warm water currents circulate in the gravel (convection currents) and these draw oxygen into the sand. Again, this prevents anaerobic conditions from developing."

Source: Sand As Substrate: A Quick Primer - Tropical Fish Forums

See which option would work best for your requirements. I did a bunch of reading, researching, and asking members on this site prior to deciding using sand as my substrate. I have about a 1" to 1.5" sand depth in my tank and I'm still able to grow amazon swords (heavy rooted plants) without problems.

From my own personal experience with my current tank:
Though I don't have discus, my fancy plecos do need clean water. I'm not finding any lethal problems with the anaerobic pockets...yet (*knocks on wood and head), but when I clean the sand when doing a water change, I do notice a lot of gas pockets underneath the sand. From time to time, I use a turkey baster get rid of some of the gas pockets.

Overall, sand substrate looks good and provides a more natural look. It's simple.


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

Hello. Simple and low tech sound good to me. what plant food do you use ? i seen you mentioned root tabs, anything else ? Cheers


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

A couple products i used in the past for plant food were roots tabs/liquid dosed stuff from SeaChem,Sera,and Pfertz.Theres quite a few products out there suited for anyone beginning to advanced.Finding that balance is key and a bit of research on your own will go a long way.A couple sponsors here bring in some products worth looking into, get into contact with them and see what they have to offer.



Scherb said:


> Hello. Simple and low tech sound good to me. what plant food do you use ? i seen you mentioned root tabs, anything else ? Cheers


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm using a product called turface it clay It's fired at 1200 F and it will take a long time to break down. Turface is used a lot in planted aquariums. I'm using it in my wife's 90 tank and will be using it in my 170 gallon discus tank when every I get around to it. I perfer it to sand. I was using pool filter sand in my 170 and it got in to every thing my filters and sump. I have not had any problems with turface. Here is some information from other planted aquarium site that use the product.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/any-experience-with-turface-114463.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/134327-info-turface-schultz-aquatic-soil-more.html


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

Scherb said:


> Hello. Simple and low tech sound good to me. what plant food do you use ? i seen you mentioned root tabs, anything else ? Cheers


Besides the root tabs, which I replace with fresh tabs every 6 months or so, I just dose weekly, or semi-weekly, Seachem liquid products, i.e. Excel, Trace, Comprehensive Supplement, along with occasional doses of Tailored Aquatics, NPK, and Equilibrium. But I'm a little lazy when it comes to that, and liquid ferts are expensive. There are better ways to go, say with dry ferts, and a little research should help you along the way.

As for what Bonsai Dave mentioned above about sand - what he says is correct with many different types of sand - play sand for example, along with some sands that are sold for pool filters and are described as PFS, but are not the best product. These are much lighter density, and particles can and do float up into the water column when disturbed, get into the filters and clog them up, and also get vacuumed up when doing wcs.
Proper higher density silica PFS does not do any of that - stays put, is very clean, doesn't clog anything, and doesn't get vac'ed up with a normal vacuum hose. That kind of product is carried by Langley By-Water on Hwy. #10 in Langley, where I get mine.


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## bonsai dave (Apr 21, 2010)

As for what Bonsai Dave mentioned above about sand - what he says is correct with many different types of sand - play sand for example, along with some sands that are sold for pool filters and are described as PFS, but are not the best product. These are much lighter density, and particles can and do float up into the water column when disturbed, get into the filters and clog them up, and also get vacuumed up when doing wcs.
Proper higher density silica PFS does not do any of that - stays put, is very clean, doesn't clog anything, and doesn't get vac'ed up with a normal vacuum hose. That kind of product is carried by Langley By-Water on Hwy. #10 in Langley, where I get mine.[/QUOTE]

Hey Paul. The sand I used came form Langley by water.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

All I can say Dave, is that the sand you bought there at that time, must have been from a different shipment/supplier than what they usually carry.
I've seen many other posts from other Vancouver users of the sand bought @ Langley By-Water, and all the reviews on that sand have been very good. I've never had mine swirl up in the water, create dust, or cause any clogging in filters, etc.
When using a regular tank vacuum, it doesn't even move up into the vac compartment more than one inch or two, before falling right back down to the bottom of the tank.
BTW, nice to hear you pipe in, hope you and Beth are doing just fine !


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Scherb said:


> Hello. So when i set up my 130g i want to have the best substrate for the fish i have.


I believe you have to decide if your interest or fish or plants. I used to have planted substrates (EC, Florabase, and now ADA AS) in all my tanks and have switched to sand now for my discus and 2 of my pleco tanks. Unless you are doing a lot of rooted plants, the substrate doesn't matter much anyway.

If you want to grow lots of plants and will be using high light (MH, multiple t4HO, etc) and CO2 and dosing EI, then by all means, special substrates DO grow plants better. But if you plan on low to moderate lighting and just want to grow some plants without CO2 and dosing ferts, then I would say sand is the best substrate for your fish, preferable a more natural buff colour. That's my take anyway. I only have one tank set up like that, but the intent is to breed plecos in it. All my other tanks have some sort of compromise as I really like to grow plants.


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

Hello, well i really like the dirt look, and i like the sand so i think i will go 50 50 or somewhere around that. does that sound good to everybody ? i didn't really see any thing negative about the dirt. Cheers


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

So i wanted to call the dirt something other than dirt. so i goggled it a can't find what i am looking for. so i will have to keep looking. i seen it at a members place in his discus tank here in Abby when i bought a 9 watt green killing machine about 11 months ago, i think he said it was part clay or mostly clay, it really looks like dirt. if anybody knows the name of this stuff please let me know Cheers


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## gklaw (May 31, 2010)

Well, seems like you made up your mind already about using some sort of "dirt." If you don't know what it is, not sure how we can help. I have actually heard of people using garden dirt. I have used sand dug from the beach myself and the plants do just fine.

Why not PM the member and ask him what he used. Lots of specialized substrate are 100% clay based, like Flora-Base.

There are really many many ways to set up a system. I have plain gravel, filter sand, Taihitian black moon sand, black flourite mixed with who know what, Flora-Base, and plain bare bottom. They all have their pros and cons and all the plants grow well. If you are capable of adapting and adjusting to the conditions of your tank, they could all work. It is conceivable to make garden dirt work, I can probably make clay dug from my yard even


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## Scherb (Feb 10, 2011)

gklaw said:


> Well, seems like you made up your mind already about using some sort of "dirt." If you don't know what it is, not sure how we can help. I have actually heard of people using garden dirt. I have used sand dug from the beach myself and the plants do just fine.
> 
> Why not PM the member and ask him what he used. Lots of specialized substrate are 100% clay based, like Flora-Base.
> 
> There are really many many ways to set up a system. I have plain gravel, filter sand, Taihitian black moon sand, black fluorite mixed with who know what, Flora-Base, and plain bare bottom. They all have their pros and cons and all the plants grow well. If you are capable of adapting and adjusting to the conditions of your tank, they could all work. It is conceivable to make garden dirt work, I can probably make clay dug from my yard even


Lol ya i can get lots of clay from the Fraser River not quite what i am looking for.  the member i referred to is a mystery my pm box got full and i made room  anyway i have had all good feed back and learned a lot
Thanks to all who responded and i will get back to you when i figure out what that dirt is. Cheers


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## eywa (Jan 18, 2012)

Most people that I know who maintain a planted discus fish tank would use fine sand substrate but that is not really the ideal condition to grow live plants. Make sure you have catfish that would act as the cleanup crew and remove leftover foods getting trapped in between the sand particles. Some people like myself prefer to keep it clear of anything and prefer a barren setup. That would allow the fish to become the center of attraction and for easy maintenance.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

You can use demineralized soil capped with the sand and as the long as you don't have any burrowing critters and you don't pull the plants out, you'll be fine. Any disturbance of the soil layer will likely result in a huge algae bloom as the organics gets stirred. You can also buy Aquatic soil (like for ponds - I think Schultz makes some) to use under the soil. Some googling around will show you a lot of methods people have used. But in most of those cases people are putting the plants first.

If you're really looking to grow great plants, injecting CO2 will get you a lot further than any soil you can use. The difficult part is supplying carbon. Any other ferts can be column dosed easily.


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