# Help! Black Beard Algae issue.



## Petunia

Tank 55gal, well established, 7-8 years old and rarely had any BB Algae outbreak which i wouldn't get under control, except this one. 
This issue is about 3-4 months old, most of my plants are destroyed, what left - cryptocorine wendtii all covered with black brushes, so i have to chop them out as fast as they get covered with BBA, also lots of BBA on the gravel. 
Adding Frourish Excel daily, right on the plants seems don't work. 
I had 11 amano shrimps for last 5 years, now the last one die and no one eats those brushes and i think it was a MAIN reason why BBA went out of control. 
We live in Southern Alberta, on the farm. Using pond water for aquarium, water is very clean, no chemicals or chlorine added. Our water system has 4 filters, different sizes + UV filter and carbon filter as well. The only pH is high alkaline, about 8.0-8.2 .
I don’t use CO2 for plant growth. 
test:
GH - 8.96
KH - 6.1
Phosph - 0.5
NO3 - 5 

Aquarium is 20" tall x 48" long x 12" wide with two 6700 daylight T5 lamps. Lighting for 10hrs. 
Life stock - 2 grown angelfish, 2 farowella catfish, 1 Golden wander Killi, 5 black skirt tetras, 1 CAE, 3 spoted tropical catfishes, 4 platy, 1 small red tail shark. 
Anything I can do else to slow down BBA growth?
I‘m looking for 20 Amano shrimps, but no one has it, went to Calgary Big Al, but they don’t have stock. Is any place I can find online and get ordered?


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## nigerian prince

i have a small outbreak as well, , cut lights to 7hrs, its slowed but spreading, interested to see the answer


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## cadillac_jack

put your fish ALONE in a temp holding cell.

boil some water and soak your ornaments/driftwood, get a scrub brush,and scrub the stuffing out of everything.
completely remove your gravel and rinse the Be jeezuz out of it and start over again. lemon juice is supposed to kill it but I dont know about that 

lighting ... do you or have you been leaving your lights on a more extended period of time to compensate for the fact that it is dark at 5 pm now? maybe set up a timer and run it for 12 hour cycles>

In my opinion I would just write your plants off you can grow them in buckets of water if you truely want to save them but they may be salvageable Im not a plant expert but I have had a fight with bba before and the stuff is incredible it is damn near impossible to kill and just when you think you have it beat..... it shows its ugly face again..

If your concerned with the water from the pond I would avoid it all together.

I would also use this opportunity to do a complete filter tear down. squeeze some skunge in the tank from your dirty filter once you have it all cleaned up to jump start your cycle but with that little livestock I wouldnt hesitate to just start the tank again with prime especially now that all the shrimp are dead .Prime is great stuff, just do a few water changes while your tank gets it stuff together.
and things like angels and most other south americans prefer a more acidic ph right around 7 is best from what i have found.


good luck bba sucks , and from my exp so does AB water haha.


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## Rockman

In my experience BBA seems to be caused by too much light and not enough/inconsistent CO2. In your case I'd cut back the lighting; Crypts are pretty slow growing and don't need that much light. See what happens with six hours of light or maybe try cutting out one of the t5 tubes. 

Manual removal of the BBA is a good idea too. Excel works well against the stuff you can't pull out; use a syringe to add your daily dose of excel directly to the nastier clumps of BBA (it'll turn white and die). People have had good success with overdosing Excel; but that's somewhat risky.


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## Petunia

I use excel daily, right on the plants by syringe, seems doesn't wokr. Total 5 ml into 55gal. 
All wood/ ornaments removed. Looking for Amano crew and it is hard to find.


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## cadillac_jack

do you look on alberta aquatica? there has to be someone out there that has amano's

http://albertaaquatica.com/


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## nigerian prince

wont your angels/red tail shark scarf down the amanos?


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## shift

Try cutting your circulation and spray hydrogen peroxide (though a syringe) directly onto the BBA and let it site for a bit before you turn the pumps back on.
I believe 3ml/Galon is a general rule for a "safe" level to use in a tank.


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## Petunia

Never had problem with that. Amanos are larger then other shrimps.


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## Korya

If it's as bad as it sounds why not try the blackout technique?

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## Petunia

shift said:


> Try cutting your circulation and spray hydrogen peroxide (though a syringe) directly onto the BBA and let it site for a bit before you turn the pumps back on.
> I believe 3ml/Galon is a general rule for a "safe" level to use in a tank.


Thanks, you mean i can use 150ml of peroxide at the time? ( 3ml x 50gal (5 gal is gravel) ?


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## Petunia

Korya said:


> If it's as bad as it sounds why not try the blackout technique?
> I had, didn't work. BBA can grow in completely dark places.


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## Korya

I didn't know that. I thought all algae needed some light.

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## Diztrbd1

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/plan...lic-enemy-1-black-brush-algae-how-fight-2286/


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## shift

There is full tank treatment methods. But start buy just shooting the bba for now and see what happens


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## Pamela

If you can get your hands on a Crossocheilus Reticulatus they eat bba. I had a huge bba outbreak in my lightly planted 46 gallon tank last spring. I put a Crossocheilus Reticulatus in the tank and he ate every single spec of bba within 3 or 4 days! The crosso is still in there and there's never been any more bba. He does a great job of keeping the tank free of all types of algae ...he's always nibbling around and is really fat!


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## jbyoung00008

cadillac_jack said:


> put your fish ALONE in a temp holding cell.
> 
> boil some water and soak your ornaments/driftwood, get a scrub brush,and scrub the stuffing out of everything.
> completely remove your gravel and rinse the Be jeezuz out of it and start over again. lemon juice is supposed to kill it but I dont know about that
> 
> lighting ... do you or have you been leaving your lights on a more extended period of time to compensate for the fact that it is dark at 5 pm now? maybe set up a timer and run it for 12 hour cycles>
> 
> In my opinion I would just write your plants off you can grow them in buckets of water if you truely want to save them but they may be salvageable Im not a plant expert but I have had a fight with bba before and the stuff is incredible it is damn near impossible to kill and just when you think you have it beat..... it shows its ugly face again..
> 
> If your concerned with the water from the pond I would avoid it all together.
> 
> I would also use this opportunity to do a complete filter tear down. squeeze some skunge in the tank from your dirty filter once you have it all cleaned up to jump start your cycle but with that little livestock I wouldnt hesitate to just start the tank again with prime especially now that all the shrimp are dead .Prime is great stuff, just do a few water changes while your tank gets it stuff together.
> and things like angels and most other south americans prefer a more acidic ph right around 7 is best from what i have found.
> 
> good luck bba sucks , and from my exp so does AB water haha.


That's some good advice IMO but still without figuring out the root cause. It will show its face again.

Does the tank receive direct sunlight? Do you feed flake food? What is your filtration and what are you using for biomedia? Water changes, how often?

Cut light back to 8rs, when was the last time you replaced the bulbs?


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## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> Korya said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it's as bad as it sounds why not try the blackout technique?
> I had, didn't work. BBA can grow in completely dark places.
> 
> 
> 
> Algea and your plants are always competing with each other. Black the tank out. The plants suffer and the algea tends to live. IMO this does nothing. People say it works. It contradicts nature unless you live in Alaska. Not too much lives there
Click to expand...


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## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> That's some good advice IMO but still without figuring out the root cause. It will show its face again.
> 
> Does the tank receive direct sunlight? Do you feed flake food? What is your filtration and what are you using for biomedia? Water changes, how often?
> 
> Cut light back to 8rs, when was the last time you replaced the bulbs?


Tank receive direct sunlight, but not often, i usually keep blinds shut
I feed flake food every other day, the second day is frozen food
Tank has two HOB Whisper 60 and EX 70 with charcoal biomedia in them
Water changes every week or 10 days about 15%


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## Petunia

Pamela said:


> If you can get your hands on a Crossocheilus Reticulatus they eat bba. I had a huge bba outbreak in my lightly planted 46 gallon tank last spring. I put a Crossocheilus Reticulatus in the tank and he ate every single spec of bba within 3 or 4 days! The crosso is still in there and there's never been any more bba. He does a great job of keeping the tank free of all types of algae ...he's always nibbling around and is really fat!


Interesting idea. Looks like cold water fish? I keep 25-26C. Have to find one if ever possible.


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## Otolith

In my one tank, I had some bba develop recently. I decided to do 75% water changes every other day and it was gone after one week. Algae has an easy time of out competing plants if there are the nutrients supplied and the plants can't utilize them. Some plants may be in need of trimming if the bba has taken a strong hold, otherwise it should hopefully drop off. And if you decide to use peroxide, which I personally don't recommend, be sure to dilute before using.


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## jbyoung00008

Here is my opinion. The direct sunlight can be a factor. Flake fish food is known to have high phosphates which algea loves. It also just gets blown all over the tank and never gets eaten which leads to poor water conditions. Switch to a pellet. New life spectrum is one of the best foods around. 15% water changes are no where near enough. 50% each time will help for sure. That's what everyone with a nice fish tank does. Anything less, hardly reduces nitrates, nitrites and ammonia, Your fish are constantly going to the washroom in the water. New fresh water is always key to a healthy tank. Reduce the light to 8rs.

Ive helped many people with the same issue as you. These are the things Ive noticed to be common with them all.


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## Petunia

I have two big chunks of marimo moss balls - almost huge and they doing fine, no BBA on them.


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## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> Interesting idea. Looks like cold water fish? I keep 25-26C. Have to find one if ever possible.


They are similar to a Siamese algea eater. They do well in warm water as well. Same species I believe but way more effective at eating BBA. Canadian aquatics. A sponsor on this site usually sells them and they ship.


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## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> Here is my opinion. The direct sunlight can be a factor. Flake fish food is known to have high phosphates which algea loves. It also just gets blown all over the tank and never gets eaten which leads to poor water conditions. Switch to a pellet. New life spectrum is one of the best foods around. 15% water changes are no where near enough. 50% each time will help for sure. That's what everyone with a nice fish tank does. Anything less, hardly reduces nitrates, nitites, ammonia, Your fish are constantly going to the washroom in the water. New fresh water is always key to a healthy tank. Reduce the light to 8rs.
> 
> Ive helped many people with the same issue as you. These are the things Ive noticed to be common with them all.


Thank a lots. 
50% water changes weekly? or bi-weekly?
I will switch food for sure. Usually don't give them much, amount which eaten in 2 minutes, barelly anything reaching bottom of the tank, if so - shrimps or bottomfeeders are finishing. I think my problem started with shrimps disapeared. Too bad they don't live for long. Mine lived about 4-5 years.


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## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> Thank a lots.
> 50% water changes weekly? or bi-weekly?
> I will switch food for sure. Usually don't give them much, amount which eaten in 2 minutes, barelly anything reaching bottom of the tank, if so - shrimps or bottomfeeders are finishing. I think my problem started with shrimps disapeared. Too bad they don't live for long. Mine lived about 4-5 years.


As long as its 50%, than it doesn't matter if its weekly or Bi-weekly IMO. What matters the most is the consistency of the water changes. If once a week is too much for you than stick with once every 2 weeks. There are exception to the rule BUT... if your tank doesn't have a big bio load and you have proper filtration. Than once every 2 weeks is fine.

As for the food. NLS is fairly priced out here. Not sure in Alberta though but it has no fillers. Its actual food fish would eat in the wild. Read the label on your flakes or any other food you see. Most are full of junk the fish don't need. So if you feed NLS they fish eat less. Which means less waste. healthier fish, healthier tank 

Amano shrimp are known to eat algae. 4 years is a long time for a shrimp to live. If yours lived that long. Good work!


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## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> I have two big chunks of marimo moss balls - almost huge and they doing fine, no BBA on them.


Moss balls are a species of filamentous green algae (Chlorophyta) So you most likely wont see Algae growing on them because that's what they are. Other types of Algae dont grow on each other as far as I know.


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## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> As for the food. NLS is fairly priced out here. Not sure in Alberta though but it has no fillers. Its actual food fish would eat in the wild. Read the label on your flakes or any other food you see. Most are full of junk the fish don't need. So if you feed NLS they fish eat less. Which means less waste. healthier fish, healthier tank
> 
> Amano shrimp are known to eat algae. 4 years is a long time for a shrimp to live. If yours lived that long. Good work!


Have to find NLS food here. We are in the middle of nowhere, no big fish stores in 150km area. 
Amano shrimps like marimo moss balls and wood, what is why they lived for so long, i still have one left, she must be close to 5 years old now. 
Planning to do a big water change today.


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## jbyoung00008

Well.... depending on how generous I am feeling today. I might be able to help you out. Ill Pm you


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## Petunia

Changed about 60% of water yesterday, reduced lights up to 8hrs, and still looking for Amanos and Crossocheilus reticulatus.


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## jhj0112

Petunia said:


> Changed about 60% of water yesterday, reduced lights up to 8hrs, and still looking for Amanos and Crossocheilus reticulatus.


Have you contacted patrick(mykiss)@ Canadian Aquatics?? I believe he carries them and will ship them out to you...


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## Petunia

jhj0112 said:


> Have you contacted patrick(mykiss)@ Canadian Aquatics?? I believe he carries them and will ship them out to you...


Yes, still waiting for the decision if they could use FedEx for shipping of life stock. We don't have any airport nearby and i have to drive 150-200km to the closest one, so FedEx would be perfect if they will accept.


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## cadillac_jack

ahhhhh alberta , lol you forgot to mention that the 150-200 km drive was through 8 feet of snow haha. and its probably like -25 right now


Petunia said:


> Yes, still waiting for the decision if they could use FedEx for shipping of life stock. We don't have any airport nearby and i have to drive 150-200km to the closest one, so FedEx would be perfect if they will accept.


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## Petunia

cadillac_jack said:


> ahhhhh alberta , lol you forgot to mention that the 150-200 km drive was through 8 feet of snow haha. and its probably like -25 right now


Nope, you are wrong Here is + 3 now, and gonna be++++ for the next two weeks, snow melting fast. I'm from Southern AB, in between Brooks and Medicine Hat on HWY 1, we are under Chinook care, so we barely get any snow, this year was strange.


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## cadillac_jack

i was remembering my stint in red deer.


Petunia said:


> Nope, you are wrong Here is + 3 now, and gonna be++++ for the next two weeks, snow melting fast. I'm from Southern AB, in between Brooks and Medicine Hat on HWY 1, we are under Chinook care, so we barely get any snow, this year was strange.


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## Petunia

Guys, need qick help with Golden ramirezi - (Papiliochromis ramirezi) fish care. Can i add fish or two into the community tank with two angels and 5 black skirt tetras? rest of fish is small and peacefull, mostly botom feeders.


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## Petunia

cadillac_jack said:


> i was remembering my stint in red deer.


yes Red Deer is North of us about 350 km, and they rarely get Chinook.


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## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> yes Red Deer is North of us about 350 km, and they rarely get Chinook.


I will be sending that food for you today. I will pm you after I send it


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## cadillac_jack

they are the same as a blue one arent they. I would be more worried about the black skirts , but I am not 100% on that

here is what i foundMikrogeophagus ramirezi (MYERS & HARRY, 1948)
Ram
SynonymsTOP ↑
Apistogramma ramirezi Myers & Harry, 1948; Papiliochromis ramirezi (Myers & Harry, 1948); Microgeophagus ramirezi (Myers & Harry, 1948)

Etymology
Mikrogeophagus: from the Greek mikro, meaning 'small', and the generic name Geophagus.

ramirezi: apparently chosen to avoid confusion because the name 'ramirezi' was being used for the fish in the ornamental trade prior to its description.

Classification
Order: Perciformes Family: Cichlidae

Distribution
Type locality is given as 'Orinoco system, Venezuela', and this species is considered retricted to the Venezuelan and Colombian llanos of the Río Orinoco drainage.

One of the specimens in our images is said to have been collected in the rio Purus, Brazil, an Amazon tributary located some distance from the Orinoco.

Habitat
The Llanos is a vast, highly biodiverse system of tropical savannah grasslands, seasonally-flooded plains and forests covering an area measuring almost 600,000 square kilometers in Venezuela and Colombia.

It's located to the north and west of the Río Orinoco and drained by many of that river's tributaries.

There are well-defined annual weather patterns with distinct wet and dry seasons and year-round high temperatures.

Other fishes occurring in the region and available in the aquarium trade include Corydoras delphax, Platydoras costatus, Baryancistrus beggini, Hypancistrus inspector, Panqolus maccus, Panaque nigrolineatus, Hemigrammus rhodostomus, H. stictus, Hyphessobrycon sweglesi, Paracheirodon axelrodi, Pristella maxillaris, Copella nattereri, Biotodoma wavrini, Geophagus abalios, Heros severus, Mesonauta insignis, Satanoperca daemon and Uaru fernandezyepezi.

Maximum Standard Length
35 - 40 mm.

Aquarium SizeTOP ↑
An aquarium with a base measuring 60 ∗ 30 cm or equivalent is sufficient for a single pair.

Maintenance
Provided adequate cover and structure is available this species is unfussy with regards to décor with ceramic flowerpots, lengths of plastic piping and other artificial materials all useful additions.

A more natural-looking arrangement might consist of a soft, sandy substrate with wood roots and branches placed such a way that plenty of shady spots and caves are formed, plus one or two flat rocks or similar to provide potential spawning sites.

The addition of dried leaf litter would further emphasise the natural feel and with it bring the growth of beneficial microbe colonies as decomposition occurs.

These can provide a valuable secondary food source for fry, while the tannins and other chemicals released by the decaying leaves aid in the simulation of natural conditions.

Aquatic plants can also be used with those from genera such as Microsorum, Taxiphyllum, Cryptocoryne and Anubias perhaps most useful since they can be grown attached to the décor.

Filtration, or at least water flow, should not be very strong and very large water changes are best avoided with regular changes of 10-15% recommended.

It goes without saying that this species should never be added to new or otherwise biologically immature aquaria.

When conditions deteriorate it becomes susceptible to a condition similar to that referred to as head and lateral line erosion or hole-in the-head in other species which initially manifests itself as small pits formed by eroding flesh around the head and lateral line pores.

Water Conditions
Temperature: 22 - 30 °C

pH: 4.0 - 7.0

Hardness: 18 - 179 ppm

Diet
Mikrogeophagus spp. are benthophagous by nature, normally taking mouthfuls of substrate which are sifted for edible items with the remaining material expelled via the gill openings and mouth, although they will also browse solid surfaces and snatch items directly from the water column.

In the aquarium they should be offered a variety of live and frozen fare such as bloodworm, Artemia, Daphnia, grindal worm, etc. supplemented by good quality, sinking dried foods of a suitably small size.

Wild fish may initially refuse the latter but normally learn to accept them over time.

Home-made, gelatine-bound recipes containing a mixture of dried fish food, puréed shellfish, fresh fruit and vegetables, for example, are proven to work well and can be cut into bite-sized discs using the end of a sharp pipette or small knife.

Behaviour and CompatibilityTOP ↑
Despite normally being sold as such M. ramirezi is not recommended for the general community aquarium since it requires pristine water quality and is a poor competitor, although that's not to say it must be maintained alone.

Groups of peaceful, open water-dwelling characids or similar are particularly recommended tankmates since the presence of small schooling or shoaling fishes appears to be used as an indicator that there is no immediate threat in the vicinity and therefore can help reduce its natural shyness.

Be sure to research your potential choices in depth and avoid territorial or otherwise aggressive fishes, including most other cichlids, and those requiring harder water.

Juveniles are gregarious but once they reach sexual maturity will begin to form pairs of which each will command a territory a couple of feet across when breeding.

Sexual Dimorphism
Adult males grow larger than females, possess slightly more-extended fins and are a little more intensely-coloured.

Most females possess a pinkish patch on the belly which is absent in males, although this may not be the case in some ornamental strains (see 'Notes').

Reproduction
This species is a biparental substrate spawner and is best bred in a dedicated set-up with no other fishes present.

There doesn't appear to be any particular trigger for the spawning process with the main requirements being good diet and stringent maintenance regime.

The eggs themselves, however, can be tricky to raise and easily develop fungus or fail to develop unless the water is very clean and of low hardness.

Inexperienced pairs may eat their brood but often get things right after a few attempts whereas the commercially-produced fish (see 'Notes') tend to be of relatively poor quality and may fail to fertilise many of their eggs or simply consume them repeatedly.

Unless sexable adults are available it's best to begin with a group of young fish and allow pairs to form naturally, separating them as they do so, and we recommend purchasing these from a reputable private breeder if possible.

The eggs are normally laid on a solid surface such as a flat rock, piece of driftwood, broad plant leaf or directly on the aquarium glass, and spawning occurs in typical style with the female laying one or more rows of eggs before the male moves in to fertilise them, this process being repeated numerous times.

If maintaining the adults in a community situation it's recommended to remove either tankmates or eggs at this point should you wish to raise good numbers of fry.

Incubation is 2-3 days after which the fry remain more-or-less immobile for a further 5 days during which period they do not require any supplementary food.

Once free-swimming they should be offered microworm, infusorian and other microscopic foods for the first 2-3 days after which larger foods such as Artemia nauplii can be introduced.

Both male and female participate equally in brood care.:


Petunia said:


> Guys, need qick help with Golden ramirezi - (Papiliochromis ramirezi) fish care. Can i add fish or two into the community tank with two angels and 5 black skirt tetras? rest of fish is small and peacefull, mostly botom feeders.


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## jhj0112

Petunia said:


> Guys, need qick help with Golden ramirezi - (Papiliochromis ramirezi) fish care. Can i add fish or two into the community tank with two angels and 5 black skirt tetras? rest of fish is small and peacefull, mostly botom feeders.


your tank's PH is too high for them... they are soft/acidic water fish.


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## Petunia

jhj0112 said:


> your tank's PH is too high for them... they are soft/acidic water fish.


Thank you, guys. 
I wouldn't worry about black skirt tetras, as they are very old, i have them since 2007, was 10, now down to 5. But high alkalinity is make me really nervous. I almost can't have any fish according to fish profiles chart. Years ago i was playing with chemicals to low alkalinity, and that helped to kill my fish, so since that t decided to keep pH as is and had success with fish and shrimps living for a long time.


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## jhj0112

Petunia said:


> Thank you, guys.
> I wouldn't worry about black skirt tetras, as they are very old, i have them since 2007, was 10, now down to 5. But high alkalinity is make me really nervous. I almost can't have any fish according to fish profiles chart. Years ago i was playing with chemicals to low alkalinity, and that helped to kill my fish, so since that t decided to keep pH as is and had success with fish and shrimps living for a long time.


I think your water is good for African Cichlids... I'm not an expert on African though.. Justin(jbyoung00008) or Steve can chime in on this as they are African cichlid keepers..


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## cadillac_jack

super low ph, jeez 4-7 thats pretty low


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## cadillac_jack

another chemical free way to lower ph is peat pucks, in a filter bag, driftwood, and if you want it down now a few drops of lemon juice , add a couple then test, add a few more then test ect ect



Petunia said:


> Thank you, guys.
> I wouldn't worry about black skirt tetras, as they are very old, i have them since 2007, was 10, now down to 5. But high alkalinity is make me really nervous. I almost can't have any fish according to fish profiles chart. Years ago i was playing with chemicals to low alkalinity, and that helped to kill my fish, so since that t decided to keep pH as is and had success with fish and shrimps living for a long time.


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## Rockman

> The only pH is high alkaline, about 8.0-8.2


Is that the tank pH or the tap water pH?



> test:
> GH - 8.96
> KH - 6.1
> Phosph - 0.5
> NO3 - 5


See... these numbers look pretty reasonable to me. I'm not sure why your tank pH would be so high.


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## Petunia

cadillac_jack said:


> another chemical free way to lower ph is peat pucks, in a filter bag, driftwood, and if you want it down now a few drops of lemon juice , add a couple then test, add a few more then test ect ect


Yes, i was using while back an organic peat moss in the PVC pipe for filtration, and have driftwood as well. Nothing helps. This is Alberta water, what comes from, mountains, always high in alkaline. Oh and here are praipies, nothing growing, no much organic matter, so alkaline everywhere in the ground, lots of salt.
here is attached water test report from Toxicology Centre, we have to send sample every year.


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## Rockman

Yeah... so that water would fit into the moderately hard catagory. You wouldn't be able to do much with peat or driftwood; that only works if you start with fairly soft water to begin with. To really do softwater fish justice you'd have to get into using rainwater or run your tapwater through a reverse osmosis filter to strip out the mineral content.

Not that you really need to do that. All of your current fish will do pretty well in that water (although it's at the high end of the range for some of them). I might point out that your red tail shark and your CAE aren't really what you call community fish (they're fairly aggressive when they get older). You might have some problems with them as they get bigger.


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## Petunia

Rockman said:


> Not that you really need to do that. All of your current fish will do pretty well in that water (although it's at the high end of the range for some of them). I might point out that your red tail shark and your CAE aren't really what you call community fish (they're fairly aggressive when they get older). You might have some problems with them as they get bigger.


I have reverse osmosis set of 3 filters and i used it to soften water about 4 years ago. Lots of work, and still, have to be very careful with how much to add and not over do. I had to run pH test twice a week to keep under control. real mess. 
My CAE is good, he is about 4 years old. Not bothers anyone. I bought two of them as a young SAE, but they grew into big CAE, the second one decided to commit suicide, jumped out of tank. Cat got him
Shark is still small and so far so good.


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## Petunia

I've done the second water change today. 50%. Noticed that plants started to melt, BBA growing wild. Waiting for the crew of algae eaters. Put a bif hope on them.
Also got free FLUVAL FX5 from neighbors . Not sure if i need such a big filter for 55gal, it is not fitting into the stand. Might sell and get smaller.


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## nigerian prince

im on day 2 of a blackout session, going to turn on the lights saturday morning
hopefully it kills the bba


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## Petunia

nigerian prince said:


> im on day 2 of a blackout session, going to turn on the lights saturday morning
> hopefully it kills the bba


sorry, it won't.
I ve been black out-ing for a week few years ago, BBA don't care, bigger & fatter It grows in completely dark places. BBA is not an algae - it is a mutant.


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## liquid_krystale

Too bad you aren't closer to the lower mainland. I'm currently looking to unload a Crosso that's just itching for a job after it decimated my BBA.


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## bonsai dave

You can try Metricide 14 . I have used it on my tank it works very well So you will have to be careful. It's a stronger version of excel but a lot cheaper to buy.


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## Momobobo

Petunia said:


> I've done the second water change today. 50%. Noticed that plants started to melt, BBA growing wild. Waiting for the crew of algae eaters. Put a bif hope on them.
> Also got free FLUVAL FX5 from neighbors . Not sure if i need such a big filter for 55gal, it is not fitting into the stand. Might sell and get smaller.


No harm in over filtrating :lol:

The two comments above are probably the best way to deal with BBA.


----------



## Petunia

liquid_krystale said:


> Too bad you aren't closer to the lower mainland. I'm currently looking to unload a Crosso that's just itching for a job after it decimated my BBA.


Is he done with BBA and destroying your plants? Why you wanna get rid of him?
I hope to receive one Crosso this weekend. He will have lots of food for awhile.


----------



## Petunia

bonsai dave said:


> You can try Metricide 14 . I have used it on my tank it works very well So you will have to be careful. It's a stronger version of excel but a lot cheaper to buy.


Thanks,
Will it do any harm to fish or invertabrates?


----------



## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> Thanks,
> Will it do any harm to fish or invertabrates?


Yes it can so be careful. It displaces oxygen if that is the correct word. If you use too much the fish will start gulphing at the surface. If possible you can remove the fish and invertes. Put them in a bucket with an air pump and a heater. Dose the tank. Let it sit for a few hours. Than put the fish back in. If you cant take them out than its advised to run an air pump and stone while dosing just incase.

If you have a crosso coming. You should wait for him before dosing IMO. He might be all you need


----------



## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> If you have a crosso coming. You should wait for him before dosing IMO. He might be all you need


Thanks. I really do wait for Crosso. 
But as a backup plan i will keep Metricide 14 .


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Blackout will do nothing for BBA before your plants are all dead. The safe way to use Metricide to eliminate BBA is to prepare a misting bottle of 90% water and 10% Metricide and spray that on the plants while you do a big water change. Any plants you cannot get to this way will have to be taken out and treated if the infestation is heavy. Leave it for a minute and then fill the tank. The BBA will be all red in a few hours. But you still have to solve the cause of the problem which is too much light.

Oh and I would highly recommend against overdosing Metricide by any significant amount. A little is fine. But it's a highly effective disinfectant (just like Potassium Permanganate and liquid bleach) so using the proper prescribed overall amount in that solution in your tank is highly recommended.


----------



## Petunia

2wheelsx2 said:


> But you still have to solve the cause of the problem which is too much light.


I don't think i have a problem with too much light. I never succes to grow high, even medium light plants, my aquarium is deep - about 20" deep, so not much light reaching the bottom. Two 56W lamps for 55gal is not much. I started to shade windows during the sun shinning hours and reduced light till 9 hrs.


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## 2wheelsx2

You won't grow high light plants without CO2. At least I've never seen it done with any level of success. When I say too much light, I meant too much light for your setup. 20" deep is not all that deep. My cube is 24" deep and I only use 4 x 24 w t5 HO so about the same amount as you. I only have both banks on for 6 hours total. The remaining 4 hours are only 2 banks each. I also don't have high light plants in there. At one point I was able to grow very red Ludwigia repens, but unfortunately, raising the temperature to 30 C killed most of my plants (trying to get some of my sick discus to recover and eat, which failed). Of course this may be only one factor and also I am not there in person too see your plant growth and how much light is hitting the tank. I've used a PAR meter in my tank to see how much light there is in there, and based on empirical experience from planted folks, my tank is low light pushing medium light. If you don't think it's too much light then you'll have to look for some other reason why you're growing BBA.

This was what it was like at the planted peak. I'm slowly growing out plants in my CO2 inject tanks to fill this tank back in.


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## liquid_krystale

Petunia said:


> Is he done with BBA and destroying your plants? Why you wanna get rid of him?
> I hope to receive one Crosso this weekend. He will have lots of food for awhile.


BBA long gone, and I also have amano shrimp as backup. I've never seen him chew on plants, but my mini anubias have been looking a bit ragged. Main reason is I'm clearing out space for other livestock and he would be happier in a bigger tank with a job to do.


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## Petunia

Here are some pictures of the tank:
Aquarium is 48" long, so i had to take pics of different corners. Most of the life plants are covered with BBA, bigger parts of plants are chopped out, i was trying to get rid of BBA, by trimming plants.
On the back - 2 artificial plants, temporary ( hate plastic plants, but some fishes need hiding spots). 3 marimo moss balls, they are OK and good home for shrimps. Purchased some duck weed, it is floatng on the top, in the cormer, sponges on filter's intake prevent filter blockage. I've red that duck weed will compete with BBA on nutritional level, if won't - will feed to my ducks or let crosso to have it. 
In general the aquarium is big mess now and I'm trying to recover it and start over.
Oh, and i took out a big chunk of drift wood to clean it and scrape BBA from it.


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## 2wheelsx2

Your duckweed is doing a good job of blocking the light out which will help greatly. The only problem might be now that your other plants will not get enough light when the duckweed really gets going. Looks like the BBA is all over your gravel too which will be a big job to get rid of.


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## nigerian prince

my bba problem isnt that bad looking at your pic's , im just getting small patches spreading across the tank, trying black out, heard mixed reviews on it, ill report back on how it worked


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## datfish

American Flagfish also love BBA, so you could look into that.


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## Petunia

datfish said:


> American Flagfish also love BBA, so you could look into that.


I hoping to receive Crosso by this weekend. Might take time for him to clean, but he will be fat for awhile. Also 20 Amano shrimps.


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## Petunia

nigerian prince said:


> my bba problem isnt that bad looking at your pic's , im just getting small patches spreading across the tank, trying black out, heard mixed reviews on it, ill report back on how it worked


Mine started in September and was getting worse since.


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## Petunia

2wheelsx2 said:


> Looks like the BBA is all over your gravel too which will be a big job to get rid of.


Everywhere! Disaster. I'm in aquarium hobby for number of years and this BBA outbrake is the worst one. Must be came into the tank with the water from our pond, somehow. We have good filtering system, including UV , but at the some point it didn't work and let spores of BBA thru into the home water. Or, might be one more reson - because all Amano shrims died at about this time and no one left to look after BBA .


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## 2wheelsx2

Probably a combination of factors. I'm sure the Crosso and the Amanos will help greatly if you don't feed the tank for a few days.


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## Rockman

I'm with 2wheelsx2 on this one. You have too much light for that setup. Lighting has to match the amount of CO2 and nutrients available. Higher order plants can't take advantage of high light if they're got nothing to grow on. Algae, on the other hand, is more adaptable and can handle environments with low CO2; so they'll have a blast in the high lighting. 

If you don't want to inject CO2, then remove a tube, cut down the lighting to 6-8 hours, and stick to low light plants. You'll have much better results.


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## Petunia

Rockman said:


> I'm with 2wheelsx2 on this one. You have too much light for that setup. Lighting has to match the amount of CO2 and nutrients available. Higher order plants can't take advantage of high light if they're got nothing to grow on. Algae, on the other hand, is more adaptable and can handle environments with low CO2; so they'll have a blast in the high lighting.
> 
> If you don't want to inject CO2, then remove a tube, cut down the lighting to 6-8 hours, and stick to low light plants. You'll have much better results.


Sounds good. Thank you. 
I was always told that not enough light, the tank is deep, and bottom needs more light, never thought there are correlation between light and CO2, thought they are so different substances. 
What are low light plants? Any help with that? Anything i have tried - nothing lived for long.

So for the low light one T5 48" 56W would be enough? 
or other option? CO2? Never deal with that, always sounds complecated.


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## jbyoung00008

A good low light plant that grows like a weed is hygrophila corymbosa. Best bet is to find low light plants that grow quickly. Anubias and Java fern are well known low light plants but IME they grow too slow and BBA can grow on them easily. Most Hygrophila species grow quick. You can also cut them and plant them in the gravel. They will grow roots and continue to grow. It makes it easy to turn a couple stems into a bush. 

If you want to try hygrophila corymbosa. I can mail you some to you next time I trim my moms tank. It grows great. Its so hardy that I have some in a bag from last week in my garage and its still living. Id send you fresh cuttings of course


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## Rockman

Yup. Hygrophilia species are usually pretty good competetitors for algae.

This is my 29 gallon low light dirt tank. It's got Hygrophilia polysperma, Hygrophila corymbosa, and some type of cryptocoryne. All on a single 18 watt T8 (although that's probably a bit too low... the pic is a few months old. The tank hasn't been able to maintain this kind of growth). I get absolutely no algae. There aren't any algae eaters in the tank and I haven't even scrubbed the glass in the six months it's been set up.









I like using the tropica website for inspiration. They don't operate in North America as far as I know; but they've got a really nice catalogue (sorted by difficulty, which is nice) and some useful articles on keeping plants alive.


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## rwong2k10

great advice everyone is suggesting on this thread, lots of little different things to try


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## Petunia

Rockman said:


> Yup. Hygrophilia species are usually pretty good competetitors for algae.
> 
> This is my 29 gallon low light dirt tank. It's got Hygrophilia polysperma, Hygrophila corymbosa, and some type of cryptocoryne. All on a single 18 watt T8 (although that's probably a bit too low... the pic is a few months old. The tank hasn't been able to maintain this kind of growth). I get absolutely no algae. There aren't any algae eaters in the tank and I haven't even scrubbed the glass in the six months it's been set up.
> I like using the tropica website for inspiration. They don't operate in North America as far as I know; but they've got a really nice catalogue (sorted by difficulty, which is nice) and some useful articles on keeping plants alive.


Prety nice and healthy looking plants. And all under 18W! No CO2 injections?
Thanks for the website. Have to go thru, pick ideas and get some low light plants. It is the plan for now. 
Also, what did you mead under "dirt" tank? No rocks on the borrom? what kind a dirt you are using?


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## Petunia

rwong2k10 said:


> great advice everyone is suggesting on this thread, lots of little different things to try


Lots of advices! Thanks to All. I'm working on them.


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## Rockman

Petunia said:


> Prety nice and healthy looking plants. And all under 18W! No CO2 injections?
> Thanks for the website. Have to go thru, pick ideas and get some low light plants. It is the plan for now.
> Also, what did you mead under "dirt" tank? No rocks on the borrom? what kind a dirt you are using?


Thanks. Yeah, that's without CO2. A 'dirt' tank is a type of low tech planted tank that uses soil underneath a layer of sand or gravel; which helps the plants in a bunch of ways. Mine is loosely based on something called the Walstad method. It is actually pretty easy to do; although if you use dirt with too much organic content you can have problems. It's only something I've started playing with recently; so there's likely memebers on the forum more versed in it than me. The 'dirt' I'm using was a bag of something called 'pond soil' I got from the garden centre, which is not really a useful name. It looked a lot like a fairly standard potting soil though. The results with it so far have been pretty impressive compared to my big tank which has a bit more light (standard 90 gallon with 118 watts worth of T5's), but only has a sand substrate.


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## 2wheelsx2

The main thing to manage algae problems is to balance light, nutrient accumulation and uptake rates. CO2 is only one way (and in my opinion the easiest way, since I just adjust the knob to get more or less CO2) to find that balance. The more light is applied to a tank, the more difficult it is to find that balance. In Rockman's dirt tank, the carbon is being supplied by the organics in the pond soil. You can also do this with diamondite I believe which is immature coal. But the organics have to be covered with a cap and not disturbed or you release it all over the water column and risk polluting the tank so it's not popular with people who like to root up the plants to replant often.


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## Petunia

I have few bags of Flourite mixed with gravel at the bottom of tank. Thought it will help plants to grow. The bottom is old and well established. All sorts of moss like star moss, or christmass moss were growing fast and covering everything. Got rid of them all. Still have few anubius plants left, they can't compete with BBA, so i was chopping leafs out. They still alive, just look horrible. Took one T5 lamp out. Look kind -a dark-ish. Not use to dark aquariums. I have light meter somewhere, couldn't find yet. Eager to check light parameters.


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## AccidentalAquarist

I feel your pain. 
I had a number of problems with my tanks when I lived in southern and central AB. Bragg Creek was the worst, because I was using water from a shallow well and it's parameters fluctuated with the seasons. 
Back then I found a website (using a dial-up modem on AGT) made by a biologist/chemist from the deep south, wish I could find it now. He listed a dozen types of algae with identification, growth factors, simple ways to eradicate them, aquatic animals that ate them, aquatic plants that released chemicals that were deadly to them etc. It was a really well laid out site. Probably can't find it because he was also a bit of an anarchist, had instructions for making various illicit and/or explosive substances on the site as well. 

I'm sure there are more sites out there now with the exact same info, minus the illegal stuff. Anyone know of one?


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## Fish rookie

2wheelsx2 said:


> In Rockman's dirt tank, the carbon is being supplied by the organics in the pond soil. .


Hi Gary,
I am sorry I don't quite understand this part, could you please explain a bit if you don't mind?
Are you saying the soil supplies carbon which is like the carbon dioxide that plants need?
Thanks.


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## Rockman

Fish rookie said:


> Hi Gary,
> I am sorry I don't quite understand this part, could you please explain a bit if you don't mind?
> Are you saying the soil supplies carbon which is like the carbon dioxide that plants need?
> Thanks.


Yeah... The organics in the soil are eaten by bacteria and end up being respired as CO2 (it's similar to what happens with DIY CO2). So the soil does supply CO2 to the tank in slow release form. The soil also contains other nutrients and has a good what's called Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC), which is useful for holding the nutrients in the soil where roots can get at them.

There's a few different methods all with their pros and cons. Dirt tanks are an attempt at a 'set and forget' ecosystem; where the idea is to do as little work as possible. Going high tech with CO2 injection is sort of the opposite direction with a high energy, high maintenance system. You can get much better growth out of them; but they tend to be a fair bit of work (trimming, replanting, tweaking, etc). Different mentalities.


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## Petunia

We were changing water filters on the house system tonight and inside the glass tube, which holds the filter i noticed some algae growth. So I'm not surprased that some very tough algae getting into the tank. Lots of them in the pond where water comes from. They survived UV filter and couple filters with finest microns number. Algae eater will keep control and balance in the tank.


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## 2wheelsx2

Flourite, ADA, Eco-Complete, Turface Pro, and others substrates also have high CEC, but you have to supply the cations by dosing with ferts (NPK, Iron, Ca, Mg, etc.). The soil supplies some CO2 in the decomposing organics, but the bulk of the the carbon is actually made available to the plants as Carbon cations directly without having to be released from the CO2 and is taken up by the root system directly.

The only drawback to the dirt tanks is that you cannot supply carbon to the water column as the CO2 released is a much smaller amount than dosing directly with DIY or pressurized CO2. But of course that's not the objective dirted tanks.

As for the pressurized tanks being high maintenance, that depends on the objective. I grow only slow growth plants that are finicky and high CO2 demand, so I only prune and do arrangements in my ADA cube once a month. Of course if you grow Hygrophilia difformis or other fast growing stems then yeah, you're going to have to do a lot of work to keep the tanks tidy, but then that's part of the fun of having planted tanks for some folks. In the end, plants, just like fish, require different techniques, but can be done different ways, which keeps it interesting for folks wanting to do a planted tank.


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## 2wheelsx2

Petunia said:


> We were changing water filters on the house system tonight and inside the glass tube, which holds the filter i noticed some algae growth. So I'm not surprased that some very tough algae getting into the tank. Lots of them in the pond where water comes from. They survived UV filter and couple filters with finest microns number. Algae eater will keep control and balance in the tank.


Have you tested your water for phosphates? Seems like your intake water is high in nutrients to be able to grow algae in your house filtration system.


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## Fish rookie

Wow, very good information. I have just learned something new again.


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## Petunia

2wheelsx2 said:


> Have you tested your water for phosphates? Seems like your intake water is high in nutrients to be able to grow algae in your house filtration system.


Not lately. Have to test sometime.
I'm thinking, it is not a first time when filter's glass tube has algae on it, in the warm/hot months are usually worse, sometime is all green. We don't add chlorine to our water, so algae issue will be taking place forewer. Right?
That is one of the small problems we have put up with when living on the farm. Crosso + Amanos are probably the best solution adn keep with water changes.


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## Petunia

2wheelsx2 said:


> Flourite, ADA, Eco-Complete, Turface Pro, and others substrates also have high CEC, but you have to supply the cations by dosing with ferts (NPK, Iron, Ca, Mg, etc.). The soil supplies some CO2 in the decomposing organics, but the bulk of the the carbon is actually made available to the plants as Carbon cations directly without having to be released from the CO2 and is taken up by the root system directly.


Unfortunately i have two bags of Fluorite only, much more gravel, prety thick layer at the bottom of tank. Once in a while i see some bubles inside the substrate, not sure what are they. Sometime just poke gravel with stick and let them free.


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## Rockman

Petunia said:


> Not lately. Have to test sometime.
> I'm thinking, it is not a first time when filter's glass tube has algae on it, in the warm/hot months are usually worse, sometime is all green. We don't add chlorine to our water, so algae issue will be taking place forewer. Right?
> That is one of the small problems we have put up with when living on the farm. Crosso + Amanos are probably the best solution adn keep with water changes.


High nutrient WC water isn't a big problem necessarily. In planted tanks you tend to want to avoid nitrate and phosphate levels that are too low anyway. Low nutrients might limit the algae; but it will also limit the plants (which could end up favoring the algae overall). If you've got enough healthy plant mass then algae tends not to be an issue even if you have higher nitrate and phosphate levels.


----------



## Fish rookie

Petunia said:


> Unfortunately i have two bags of Fluorite only, much more gravel, prety thick layer at the bottom of tank. Once in a while i see some bubles inside the substrate, not sure what are they. Sometime just poke gravel with stick and let them free.


Unless you dose ferts, Flourite will not really give your plants extra ferts from how I understand it. It has a better capability to retain ferts than gravel but if you do not dose, it is about the same thing except finer in size. 
Those substrate Gray described are not the same thing because they can actually release extra ammonia into the water column for the plants. 
If you have long stem plants, you can always use root tabs buried inside your substrate to make them grow nicely with extended root development. Flourite is usually okay in most cases but with some picky carpeting plants it is much easier to grow with ADA and those.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I believe a thick substrate may not have enough oxygen inside so anaboric reaction could take place which can produce sulphite gas. The gas you saw, if it smelled like rotten egg, was sulphite gas.


----------



## Rockman

Fish rookie said:


> Unless you dose ferts, Flourite will not really give your plants extra ferts from how I understand it. It has a better capability to retain ferts than gravel but if you do not dose, it is about the same thing except finer in size.
> Those substrate Gray described are not the same thing because they can actually release extra ammonia into the water column for the plants.
> If you have long stem plants, you can always use root tabs buried inside your substrate to make them grow nicely with extended root development. Flourite is usually okay in most cases but with some picky carpeting plants it is much easier to grow with ADA and those.


I believe that is correct. Flourite is Seachem's versoin of baked laterite. Seachem does seem to imply it's got some merit as a fertilizer; but given that's it's composed of only the most stable iron and aluminum oxide minerals (laterite being the end product of weathering... anything that's likely to be bio-available has been washed out) I'd doubt that it does much. If you go through the acutal wording of the Seachem product blurb, it's never mentioned as being a source of nutrients to plants.



Fish rookie said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong. I believe a thick substrate may not have enough oxygen inside so anaboric reaction could take place which can produce sulphite gas. The gas you saw, if it smelled like rotten egg, was sulphite gas.


Possibly. Hydrogen sulphide can be produced in anerobic substrates; but it's not the only thing that is. Could also be CO2 or N2 gas (which would actually form first).

Either way, a deep gravel bed is a sludge trap. It's a good idea to thin out the gravel bed a bit and maybe get in there with a gravel vac a bit more often.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Rockman said:


> I believe that is correct. Flourite is Seachem's versoin of baked laterite.


This is absolutely correct. It'll work fine in low light stable tanks but won't provide enough macro nutrients (NPK) in a high light tank. It will supply plenty of iron and other trace minerals though.

The thick substrate problem depends on the nature of the substrate. I have 5 inches of ADA AS to build in a slope in the back of my cube without a problem because the ADA does not compact tightly to form anaerobic pockets. This could happen with fine sand and gravels which are poorly sorted and compact tightly, or with soils which compress significantly.


----------



## Fish rookie

Thanks Rockman. I was not quite sure as I only had very limited experience with Flourite. I chose it back then when I wanted a black substrate. 
Yes, N2 can be produced when nitrate is converted by anerobic reaction. I was more thinking along the line of harmful gas which he probably should not try to release into the water column.
I do not like a thick bed at all.
I tried to put some lava rocks in the very bottom with a thick bed of ADA with some stability hoping to get some bacteria to decompose the sludge. I am not sure if that was working, because I took that tank down shortly after, before I had a chance to really find out.
I had a thick pool filter sand bed before and saw a lot of blackish spots where there was no oxygen. I prefer to have only 1/2" of sand bed.


----------



## Petunia

Fish rookie said:


> Unless you dose ferts, Flourite will not really give your plants extra ferts from how I understand it. It has a better capability to retain ferts than gravel but if you do not dose, it is about the same thing except finer in size.
> Those substrate Gray described are not the same thing because they can actually release extra ammonia into the water column for the plants.
> If you have long stem plants, you can always use root tabs buried inside your substrate to make them grow nicely with extended root development. Flourite is usually okay in most cases but with some picky carpeting plants it is much easier to grow with ADA and those.
> Please correct me if I am wrong. I believe a thick substrate may not have enough oxygen inside so anaboric reaction could take place which can produce sulphite gas. The gas you saw, if it smelled like rotten egg, was sulphite gas.


I dosing Excel only and use root tabs as well.
There is No smell when i mix the gravel and release gas bubles. Just air coming up. 


> I do not like a thick bed at all.


There are 3 inches upfront and 4" at the back. 
Now, when *2wheelsx2* said that he has 5" at his tank, mine is sounds not too much.



> It's a good idea to thin out the gravel bed a bit and maybe get in there with a gravel vac a bit more often.


Question to ROXKMAN: what is the optimal thickness of the gravel would be good for 55gal? 
I do gravel vacuum every week with water change.


----------



## Fish rookie

Just for clarification I said I do not like a thick bed myself but I ws not trying to say do not have any kind of thick substrate for other people.
If your fish are healthy and everything is good then no need to thin the bed; but if you start seeing problems you may want to look at that. How deep depends on the type of substrate you use and what you want to achieve, in my opinion.
I do nto see this being mentioned (may be I have missed it) but in my opinion, current is important, too, in preventing algae formation.


----------



## nigerian prince

just finished a 5 day blackout and can confirm with whoever posted before that it is not effective against bba


----------



## Petunia

nigerian prince said:


> just finished a 5 day blackout and can confirm with whoever posted before that it is not effective against bba


I have been trying few times. Never worked. BBA grow inside the filter tubes, no light there.


----------



## Petunia

Fish rookie said:


> Just for clarification I said I do not like a thick bed myself but I ws not trying to say do not have any kind of thick substrate for other people.
> .


Me neither. Thick layer of substrate doesn't look that nice thru the aquarium glass, all sorts of colors there, including some redish growth. I made it thick because was planning to have lots plants ( what never happened) and trying to give them as much nutrition as possible. Wrong. Now i might scope some , but this is a bog job, as lots of roots will be damaged.


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## 2wheelsx2

I would not be too concerned about root damage unless you manage to tear them all off. If you want to clean up around the plant, you can dig up the substrate around the crown and pull up the plant slightly and trim off most of the root except 3 or 4 inches and then remove the substrate and roots and just replant.


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## Petunia

I don't have separete plants, it is two long cryptocorine wendtii, roots are spreaded on the half aquarium. The dillema to keep or not to keep Nice old plants, well spreaded. I will try to scope some gravel around, probably some amount with each water change and see what happened.


----------



## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> If you want to try hygrophila corymbosa. I can mail you some to you next time I trim my moms tank. It grows great. Its so hardy that I have some in a bag from last week in my garage and its still living. Id send you fresh cuttings of course


Hi jbyoung00008, i've sent you pm a while ago, not sure if you got it? Yes, i would like to have some hydrophila for sure. Thanks.


----------



## shift

How is the bba battle going? I raised my light, lowered the period and have been trimming any infected leaf I find (also tried some spot treating with peroxide). Yesterday I turned down the dosage on my auto doser Incase there is extra nutrients feeding it. Defiantly a battle


----------



## Petunia

Dosing Excel daily and do water changes weekly. That is all. The cleaning crew is arriving tomorrow, hope alive I will let them deal with BBA.


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## shift

How much excel are using for daily does?


----------



## jbyoung00008

Petunia said:


> Hi jbyoung00008, i've sent you pm a while ago, not sure if you got it? Yes, i would like to have some hydrophila for sure. Thanks.


Yes I got it. Sorry Ive been super busy. I will send you some no problem give it a week or 2. Ill use greyhound for shipping this time if that works. They come by my work everyday so my boss will cover the charges


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## AccidentalAquarist

I've been searching and searching for a site/book/paper like I mentioned previously. 

Everyone site/paper I've looked at seems to agree with the unbalanced light/nutrient/CO2 relationship that we all agree is the primary cause of an outbreak.

There seems to be a lot of new research regarding allelopathy (plants that produce chemicals harmful to neighboring/competing plants) and specifically aquatic plants (some species I recognize from the aquarium trade), but none of the papers I've scanned through refer to algae deterrents, mainly their anti-fungal and antibacterial uses in horticulture, farming and forestry. And now it's bugging the heck out me to find even a smidgeon of what was on that *******'s site. Because damn it I'm a long haired ******* at heart and occasionally one of us is trams..I mean smart


----------



## Petunia

shift said:


> How much excel are using for daily does?


One capfull per 55gal


----------



## Petunia

Received the cleaning crew today. All alive! Adapting them to local water. Big difference in pH range.


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## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> Yes I got it. Sorry Ive been super busy. I will send you some no problem give it a week or 2. Ill use greyhound for shipping this time if that works. They come by my work everyday so my boss will cover the charges


Thank you very much. Any time will work, I'm not in the rush. 
Grayhound might take longer then Canada post I've got fish food in a day, Grayhound might take 2-4 days. Although, nothing happened to Hydrophilla for few days. It is very strong weed.


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## nigerian prince

what did you get? , and from where?


Petunia said:


> Received the cleaning crew today. All alive! Adapting them to local water. Big difference in pH range.


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## Longimanus

Just thought I would add my recent experience with BBA. Had a pretty nasty outbreak in my 55 gallon planted tank. BBA was all over my wood, filter tubes, Anubias and other plants. None of my fish would touch it, including a Crosssomething or other that I bought just for that purpose. 

So I bought some excel, and dosed around 45 ml the first day (right after a water change), and that one dose was enough to turn it red. It did not harm any of my fish and my plants loved it. A few days later I dosed again, about 30ml that time. And that was it. My BBA is gone. Once it started to die, the crossomething or other started to eat it. So excel does work, and I had zero adverse effects from it. Hope that helps!


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## pinkjell

marbled cray fish worked for me..they ate it..dont know why...


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## Petunia

Longimanus said:


> So I bought some excel, and dosed around 45 ml the first day (right after a water change), and that one dose was enough to turn it red. It did not harm any of my fish and my plants loved it. A few days later I dosed again, about 30ml that time. And that was it. My BBA is gone. Once it started to die, the crossomething or other started to eat it. So excel does work, and I had zero adverse effects from it. Hope that helps!


I would do that! but what about invertabres and more sensitve fish?


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## Petunia

nigerian prince said:


> what did you get? , and from where?


24 Amanos and one Crossocheilus reticulatus for cleaning purposes, and Bristlenose + 2 Golden ramirezi for fun.


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## 2wheelsx2

Fish will probably be ok but that much Excel would be pretty hard on your inverts. It would be safer and more effective to do a 50% wc, dose half that amount and leave it for 5 minutes before you fill up the tank. So you'll only be subjecting your critters to the strongest dose for 5 minutes.


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## Longimanus

The amount I dosed was already half of the recommended dosage because I have a scaleless fish (black ghost knife). The fish was fine with this lowered dose. At the recommended dosage of 1.5ml per gallon I would have been up over 80ml. So i did 40. And then even less a few days later. My BGK was totally fine, as were all of my other fish.


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## 2wheelsx2

Sorry, I meant half of the initial use after a big water change, which is 5 ml per 10 gallons. If the tank is 55 gallons and 30 gallons are removed during the water change, then 15 ml is dosed while the water is down. Left alone for 5 minutes and then filled up. Otherwise it would be 25 ml. Saves on Excel and the fish/inverts are exposed to the stronger dose shorter.

With regards to fish, I've never seen or heard of anyone who has had problems with Excel, scaleless or scaled, unless extremely high doses are used (5 - 10x recommended dosage). But I have read of people having problems with shrimps and snails and it is one of the reasons I stopped dosing my tank with CRS (but they ended up dying for some reason anyway).


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## Petunia

OK, update for BBA issue. After weekly ( 50%) water changes, covering door's window and reducing lights - it's gone, or just about gone, some little spots on the gravel, what doesn't bother me at all. Crosso did a great job cleaning plants, they back to grow business, no BBA on the plants anymore. 
Now, when i don't have that many algae what should i feed to the Crosso? Algae pellets? or what is the best food to feed algae eaters?


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## shaobo

My crosso has been doing well with algae/vegi pellets.


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## jbyoung00008

He might eat zucchini. I know most plecos's love it and so do my African's so I don't see why he wouldn't. Elastic band a piece to a rock and drop it in the tank. Don't leave it in for over 2 days it will become mushy. If he likes it he will eat it quickly


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## Petunia

jbyoung00008 said:


> He might eat zucchini. I know most plecos's love it and so do my African's so I don't see why he wouldn't. Elastic band a piece to a rock and drop it in the tank. Don't leave it in for over 2 days it will become mushy. If he likes it he will eat it quickly


I don't have zuccini, but do have some cucumbers, hope chemicals, used for veggie grow won't hurt a fish. Also i have a baby yellow bristlenose pleco, they both need some green stuff.


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## Petunia

OK, guys, I'm back to the same algae problem. For about couple months tank was looking good & clean, but now having gravel bloom with BBA, tons of green spots on the aquarium glass. Crosso doing great job cleaning plants, but not gravel.
Water changes (about 40% - 50%) with gravel vac weekly. 

Found my new little yellow bristelnose baby pleco dead today, and i couldn't figure out WHY???? Rarely have cases when fish die. I know certain fish can't tolerate our water, like I’ve tried to have gouramies and neons - those won 't last long, but most of others are fine. 
I did water tests today:

pH 8.1-8.3
No2 0
No3 0
Ammonia 0.6
Phosphate 0.5
Kh 10.64
gH 17.92

So water is hard with high alkaline. Welcome to Alberta!!!!! 
and Yes!! High light is probably an issue for BBA growth. I set up timer for 8hrs and now sun is shining thru windows, not directly on aquarium, but in general room is more bright now. I have two 56W 6.700K daylight lamps for tall 55 gal, would be those two - too much?


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## Rockman

Sorry to hear that. Sounds rough.

Your ammonia results concern me. With a high pH like that even low concentrations of ammonia can be quite toxic. It looks to me like you might have some cycling issues. I'd recommend daily water changes for the next little while to keep the ammonia levels as low as possible. Another good idea would be to use an ammonia binding product like Seachem Prime or API Ammo-lock. 

You might also want to double check your nitrate results. Aside from heavily planted tanks (which I don't think yours is, as you have an ammonia reading), you'd expect to have some measure of nitrate in the water. What test kit are you using?

As for the algae: I do think you have too much light (I would cut back to six hours a day. Possibly lose one of the tubes as well). What kind of plants do you have in there right now (maybe attach a new photo)?


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## Petunia

Rockman said:


> Sorry to hear that. Sounds rough.
> 
> Your ammonia results concern me. With a high pH like that even low concentrations of ammonia can be quite toxic. It looks to me like you might have some cycling issues. I'd recommend daily water changes for the next little while to keep the ammonia levels as low as possible. Another good idea would be to use an ammonia binding product like Seachem Prime or API Ammo-lock.
> 
> What test kit are you using?
> 
> What kind of plants do you have in there right now (maybe attach a new photo)?


Hi, thanks for the reply.
I use Nutrafin Master Kit for testing water parameters, it is old, probably 6 years old by now. 
Still have a few plants left - marimo balls and Cryptocorine (brown). 
Fish are doing fine, look good, no signs of stress or poisoness. They eat good, they act good. I made few pictures of aquarium, will download here later.


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## Rockman

I see. Six years is probably a bit old for a test kit. They do expire at some point; the newer ones will usually have dates on them now. It's possible your readings are off; it might be a good idea to get a new set of kits (or at least try to verify them with a test done by the LFS). I do think your nitrate results are suspect (zero nitrates aren't usually achieveable outside of really heavily planted tanks); zero readings are a common problem with Nurtafin nitrate kits that have been sitting a while (often the zinc in bottle #3 settles out and cakes on the bottom. You can pry the plastic top off the bottle and scrape the inside of the bottle to resuspend it). 

Moss balls and crpyts are slow growing, low light plants. They don't compete well with algae in higher light conditions. Taking out a tube and decreasing the photoperiod to six hours or so might help. You might also try increasing your plant mass with something fast growing. I've always done well with hygrophilia (although different plants do well in different conditions... it's best to try out a few species to see what works for you). With enough healthy plant mass it's possible to have a zero algae tank.

As for the ammonia: Assuming your test kit is reliable (and that is something I'd double check), 0.6 ppm at a pH of slightly above 8 falls into the category of 'likely harmful, but probably not (immeadiately) fatal", according to the US EPA. It might not be obvious, but it could be causing you problems. It's something you probably want to fix.


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## Petunia

Here you are the pictures of my tank


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## Petunia

> Moss balls and crpyts are slow growing, low light plants. They don't compete well with algae in higher light conditions. Taking out a tube and decreasing the photoperiod to six hours or so might help. You might also try increasing your plant mass with something fast growing. I've always done well with hygrophilia (although different plants do well in different conditions... it's best to try out a few species to see what works for you). With enough healthy plant mass it's possible to have a zero algae tank.


I've been trying different plants, spending lots of $$$, seem that nothing likes to grow in our water, except algae. Either too much alkaline, or hardness, or ....who knows. 
I would like to try hygrophilia, need to find some healthy plants.

NitrAte test is new, or about new, i purchused it couple years ago. Phosphate also new, rest of them older.

Few years ago i had battle with BBA, it went so far, so i decided to go for a big tank clean up. Removed all water, washed gravel, etc. It didn't help to get rid of BBA, just slow down for a while. I'm prety sure it comes with water from our pond. So BBA is always win, but my goal is to make it suffer, not a bloom


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