# Quick question about raising KH



## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

So with raising KH using Seachem Alkaline, I simply add more, but in trying to keep the pH lower I add Seachem Acid. However, will adding Seachem Acid reduce kH?

Thanks!


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Seachem webpage says " As Acid Buffer™ lowers pH it converts carbonate alkalinity (KH) into available CO2. " Not sure if that answers your question but they have lots of good info on their webpage. You might find the answer there 

Check it out Seachem. Acid Buffer


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## monkE (Aug 4, 2010)

generally from what i've experienced KH and PH move together, one always seems to effect the other.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Yes. pH and KH are directly related; so you will always decrease kH when you decrease pH.

If you want the technical speak, kH (more properly referred to as Alkalinity the way we use the term) is defined as the amount of acid you can add to the water before it reaches a pH of 4.7. Unsuprisingly, if you add acid to the water, that number goes down.

May I ask what water conditions you're trying to achieve?


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## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

On another note: seachem alkaline is just a fancy branding of baking soda! (sodium bicarbonate) check the ingredients. Can save you a couple bucks in the long run.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

neoh said:


> On another note: seachem alkaline is just a fancy branding of baking soda! (sodium bicarbonate) check the ingredients. Can save you a couple bucks in the long run.


I cant explain this scientificly because Im not scientist but I will explain it very basicaly since Im a simple guy  From everything I have read and seen baking does nothing to help your buffering capacity in a fish tank. If you use baking soda the PH will rise however the rise will be temporary. The PH will fall back to where it was before so you will be constantly adding baking soda and not building your tanks buffering capacity

Here is a good reading on buffering capacity. It doesnt mention anything about baking soda. I was trying to find an article that did. I dont think baking soda raises KH therefor your PH will always fall. Best bet is to use the seachem products. They are cheap and do what they are supposed to do. I use Seachem PH neutral on my planted tank and SeaChem Malawi/Victoria buffer on my African tank. Ive been using these products for 4 years. I can now preform water changes and not add any seachem buffers and my water chemistry stays the same. My tank is buffering itself now. I still add these products on a regular basis but its less than at the start and for the price its well worth it IMO. My Dad uses baking soda on his tank and his PH always crashes. Its partially due to not enough water changes but its also because the tank has a low buffering capacity. He is an old school fish keeper. He doesnt want to listen to me even though my tanks are 10x nicer than his. He is old and set in his ways but I assure you using these Seachem buffering products works. Im a new school fish keeper I always tell him 

Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)

Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added. 
Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.

In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).

How much buffering does your tank need? Most aquarium buffering capacity test kits actually measure KH. The larger the KH, the more resistant to pH changes your water will be. A tank's KH should be high enough to prevent large pH swings in your tank over time. If your KH is below roughly 4.5 dH, you should pay special attention to your tank's pH (e.g, test weekly, until you get a feel for how stable the pH is). This is ESPECIALLY important if you neglect to do frequent partial water changes. In particular, the nitrogen cycle creates a tendency for an established tank's pH to decrease over time. The exact amount of pH change depends on the quantity and rate of nitrates produced, as well as the KH. If your pH drops more than roughly two tenths of a point over a month, you should consider increasing the KH or performing partial water changes more frequently. KH doesn't affect fish directly, so there is no need to match fish species to a particular KH.

Note: it is not a good idea to use distilled water in your tank. By definition, distilled water has essentially no KH. That means that adding even a little bit of acid will change the pH significantly (stressing fish). Because of its instability, distilled (or any essentially pure water) is never used directly. Tap water or other salts must first be added to it in order to increase its GH and KH.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Nice reply. However, you are incorrect with regards to baking soda. Baking soda contains bicarbonate, which definitely adds to the buffering capacity of the water (carbonate/bicarbonate/carbonic acid form the main buffer in most natural water systems). I don't know what your dad does; but I've used baking soda to bump up my KH with complete success. The only tricky bit is that below pH 7 or so, you start losing your buffer as CO2 gas; so you have to top it up more often (requires monitoring). 

The seachem neutral stuff you use is phosphate based; so it stays in the tank longer. However, it can potentially lead to algae problems in unplanted aquaria.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Rockman said:


> Nice reply. However, you are incorrect with regards to baking soda. Baking soda contains bicarbonate, which definitely adds to the buffering capacity of the water (carbonate/bicarbonate/carbonic acid form the main buffer in most natural water systems). I don't know what your dad does; but I've used baking soda to bump up my KH with complete success. The only tricky bit is that below pH 7 or so, you start losing your buffer as CO2 gas; so you have to top it up more often (requires monitoring).
> 
> The seachem neutral stuff you use is phosphate based; so it stays in the tank longer. However, it can potentially lead to algae problems in unplanted aquaria.


Thanks. I figured Id post the buffering capacity article so others can understand it. Buffering capacity is a big part of owning a fish tank and IMO also key to having a nice tank for a long period of time. Im not trying to cause an argument. Rather a fun debate. Im very stubborn, a little cheeky but always respectfull. So dont be affended by my reply.

Im still going to disagree with you on the baking soda. It obvious you know more about chemistry and adding baking soda than I do. My dad is huge into wine making and an educated old fellow so Ill asume you and him see eye to eye on this topic. The reason I disagree is because Ive read countless times that baking soda is a poor buffer. Ive read this in books and magazines which are proven to be true. Ive also read baking soda isnt a good buffer on the good old internet. Which is a less reliable source but always nice to hear people opinions.

You seem to think baking soda is a good buffer. Can you prove to me that it is? Im not sure how you will do that but maybe than Illl agree but probably not. LOL. You already said "The only tricky bit is that below pH 7 or so, you start losing your buffer as CO2 gas; so you have to top it up more often (requires monitoring). 
So I will concider that a downfall already vs Seachem. Using their product you use less overtime and If you buy the PH neutral It takes the guess work out of how many tsp etc...... Add their product you have a PH of 7. No higher, no lower. Nice and easy just how I like it. Also you stated Seachem PH neutral will cause algea in an unplanted tank. That is a bold statement. Where's the proof??? And who has un planted fish tank now a days anyways??? I havnt had a tank without live plants since I was 12. LOL.

Id like to hear an explanation on it that is simple. No gigantic words that I have no clue what they mean. Im looking for basic examples I guess. My dads never explained his theory.

And..... last but not least. To each their own. IMO there is no right answer to fish keeping. What works for one, might not work for another. All I know is ever since I started using the seachem products my fish tanks are nicer, healthier and I spend less time chasing my PH and more time enjoying the tanks. Ill toot my own horn and say I have one of the nicest African tanks around and its fully planted. All I use is Seachem products. No home brews and the results speak for themselves. Feel free to post a picture of your baking soda tank. Ill post a pic of my Seachem un officialy sponsored tank. LOL. We will see which one is doing better.  Or check out my videos. And make your own decision.


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the feedback. I was trying to determine if there was a way to keep pH at 6 but a kH higher than 1 in my aquarium. Looks like that's not possible.

A bit off topic but I think a good read regarding phosphate and algae:
Does too much phosphate cause algae? [Archive] - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Reckon said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. I was trying to determine if there was a way to keep pH at 6 but a kH higher than 1 in my aquarium. Looks like that's not possible.
> 
> A bit off topic but I think a good read regarding phosphate and algae:
> Does too much phosphate cause algae? [Archive] - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


Yeah... keeping a pH of 6 while having a measureable KH is problematic. You definitely can't do it with carbonates (offgassing... more than half your buffer is CO2 at that point) and probably not with phosphates either (it doesn't really buffer that well below 6.2 ish). My suggestion is that you try it with a higher pH; most fish won't be put off by a pH around neutral and it should be easier to keep a stable system.



jbyoung00008 said:


> Thanks. I figured Id post the buffering capacity article so others can understand it. Buffering capacity is a big part of owning a fish tank and IMO also key to having a nice tank for a long period of time. Im not trying to cause an argument. Rather a fun debate. Im very stubborn, a little cheeky but always respectfull. So dont be affended by my reply.
> 
> Im still going to disagree with you on the baking soda. It obvious you know more about chemistry and adding baking soda than I do. My dad is huge into making wine and an educated old fellow so Ill asume you and him see eye to eye on this topic. The reason I disagree is because Ive read countless times that baking soda is a poor buffer. Ive read this in books and magazines which are proven to be true. Ive also read baking soda isnt a good buffer on the good old internet. Which is a less reliable source but always nice to hear people opinions.
> 
> ...


I can explain it; although it is moderately complicated and should probably have it's own thread (I've wanted to do a proper writeup on buffer chemistry for a while. It's something I've been playing with... I'll see what I can come up with). I must admit I don't use baking soda anymore; I find it easier to use a bag of limestone chips instead (keeps my pH and TDS where I want it without much effort aside from a few considerations around water changes).



jbyoung00008 said:


> And..... last but not least. To each their own. IMO there is no right answer to fish keeping. What works for one, might not work for another. All I know is ever since I started using the seachem products my fish tanks are nicer, healthier and I spend less time chasing my PH and more time enjoying the tanks. Ill toot my own horn and say I have one of the nicest African tanks around and its fully planted. All I use is Seachem products. No home brews and the results speak for themselves. Feel free to post a picture of your baking soda tank. Ill post a pic of my Seachem un officialy sponsored tank. LOL. We will see which one is doing better.  Or check out my videos. And make your own decision.


I do agree with you. Different tanks will require different methods. I have an amazon-ish setup; so my perspective is from the other side. On an African tank I'd probably agree that bicarb by itself is pretty much useless.


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## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

Well, I used baking soda, Epsom salt and instant ocean every week during a water change for my Tanganyikan cichlid tank for a year and a half, and maintained my ph at 7.8, (with the tap water being around 7.2) KH, and GH within acceptable ranges for that time by doing so. If I didn't do a water change for weeks and tested it, my levels would remain the same. 

I used Seachem buffer on the tank for the first several months of having it, and couldn't maintain my levels properly, and the fish had adverse effects. Once I changed to the soda/salt method they got bigger, and they all bred like rabbits, and showed fantastic coloring. I also used inert pool filter substrate as opposed to say, limestone, crushed coral, or aragonite or another buffering substrate.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Rockman said:


> Yeah... keeping a pH of 6 while having a measureable KH is problematic. You definitely can't do it with carbonates (offgassing... more than half your buffer is CO2 at that point) and probably not with phosphates either (it doesn't really buffer that well below 6.2 ish). My suggestion is that you try it with a higher pH; most fish won't be put off by a pH around neutral and it should be easier to keep a stable system.
> 
> I can explain it; although it is moderately complicated and should probably have it's own thread (I've wanted to do a proper writeup on buffer chemistry for a while. It's something I've been playing with... I'll see what I can come up with). I must admit I don't use baking soda anymore; I find it easier to use a bag of limestone chips instead (keeps my pH and TDS where I want it without much effort aside from a few considerations around water changes).
> 
> I do agree with you. Different tanks will require different methods. I have an amazon-ish setup; so my perspective is from the other side. On an African tank I'd probably agree that bicarb by itself is pretty much useless.


Thanks for not taking that my write up as a personal attack. That be awesome to see a write up on water chemistry. How do you know so much about it? I enjoy reading new things so I look forward to reading your write up. I use seachem Ph neutral on my 25g Co2 injected tank I used baking soda my whole life since my dad told me thats what to use. I made the switch and have never looked back. As for the African tank. I also prefer Seachem just because its easier. The seachem bottles are small, cheap and actually last 3 to 4 months in my african tank. They are $12 each here.

That cracks me up that you admit you dont even use it baking soda anymore. Most people would leave that comment out. So good on ya. Good honest guy. I like that.


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## Reckon (Jul 25, 2012)

Rockman said:


> Yeah... keeping a pH of 6 while having a measureable KH is problematic. You definitely can't do it with carbonates (offgassing... more than half your buffer is CO2 at that point) and probably not with phosphates either (it doesn't really buffer that well below 6.2 ish). My suggestion is that you try it with a higher pH; most fish won't be put off by a pH around neutral and it should be easier to keep a stable system.


I'm with JBYoung. I'm impressed with your honesty and knowledge. You've definitely made some great posts for first few.


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Thanks. You as well JB. It's a refreshing change from the other forum I've been reading; they tend to get personal pretty quick.

As for the chem stuff, I've just finished a geology/environmental science degree; so I've got a fair bit of geochemistry floating around my head at the moment. It's been interesting trying to interpret my coursework in terms of 'what happens in my fish tank'. Should be fun to write it all down.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Rockman said:


> Thanks. You as well JB. It's a refreshing change from the other forum I've been reading; they tend to get personal pretty quick.
> 
> As for the chem stuff, I've just finished a geology/environmental science degree; so I've got a fair bit of geochemistry floating around my head at the moment. It's been interesting trying to interpret my coursework in terms of 'what happens in my fish tank'. Should be fun to write it all down.


You are new to the site and already under fire. That's a warm welcoming around here.  We don't always have debates like this one on here. The few debates we've had since Ive been a member have been about this topic. I know personally what ever works, works. We all get stuck in our own ways but it always nice to hear a different opinion. Welcome to the site. It sounds like you have some knowledge for all of us to hear.


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