# Kids Matter



## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

I thought I would post a few things for people to educate themselves as to WHY teachers in BC are doing what we are doing, what we are fighting for, etc. It seems there are too many people angry at teachers. Some say that we should just do our jobs and teach the kids and stop asking for a pay increase. We should provide support for those kids who need the extra help, etc. Well WHAT DO YOU THINK WE ARE FIGHTING FOR!!
Teachers are walking out all across the province on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Schools will remain open, so those parents who cant afford extra child care, just drop off your kids to the school like normal. Admin will be there to watch over them.

Here are the links. Please watch/read. They are very good.
http://www.bctf.ca/uploadedFiles/Public/Parents/FairDealFlyer.pdf

Teaching in BC « Cheryl Angst, Writer

Support B.C. Teachers - YouTube


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

I support the teachers fully. People seem to forget that the teachers have politically been under attack for 10 years, back when christie clark was the minister for education. Back then the government tore up the contracts despite the province being on an economic boom. Their contracts were bloated then, they simply wanted to rewrite them from the ground up, remove limits that would hinder them in the future. They laid the groundwork to make cuts to education, not directly, but by failing to inject enough funding into the system to keep up with a growing population and inflation. They increased class sizes to deal with the added low, when they added new schools, they pinched costs to the extent that most schools would need expansions or portables before they were even complete. On top of that services to special needs are incredibly lacking. I am not talking about full care while in school, i mean simple things like speech therapy, better help for those with learning disabilities. One of the biggest areas that is lacking is early intervention for common learning issues. A lot of these topics exist in the teacher's contract, people dont realize that. What the government has done now is say You get nothing for a raise UNLESS you want to take away from one of those services. They deny the teachers even the right to keep their wage up to inflation, why? because they like to make the teachers sound unreasonable for opening up with 5% a year wages. What better way to raise their public opinion for themselves, than to make it look like the teachers ruined the education system by getting a dismal raise.

In business if you used to have had to have money set aside for when times got tough, but nowadays its about cutting wages to people who can afford it the least the minute things take a down turn, rather than take a cut to your profit. The minute things turn around and the economy booms, things never reach the levels they once were, often times not even keeping up with inflation. The government has kept that mindset, slash public sector as much as they can, fail to reinvest when times are good, instead cut their revenue generators from their portfolio completely because they can afford it at the time, and make themselves look awesome on paper. When times get tough, they then slash the sectors even more, to a point they are in shambles, in the guise that they cant afford it.

Whenever i hear something about the net zero policy, i think about one thing, why wasn't their own wage package net zero when they gave themselves a raise? There was no money for anything apparently, so how come they did so anyways. Are they that ignorant at their jobs that they cant foresee such expenses so near in the future? Further more, remember we are a resource driven province, we have a different economic cycle than services and manufacturing, there is no downturn if they can still make money of what they exploit from our province. Yet these industries recieve massive tax cuts and subsidies. Why not balance the books a bit to be net zero throughout the board, you know, barely increase the tax rate to these massive corporations and remove their subsidies, you can have all the funding the teaching sector needs to meet a low wage increase. Upping the corporate tax rate (at a certain thresh hold) would not affect small business, or medium business, just those massive players that take our resources out of this province. They will say it hurts them, hurts the province, they need to layoff, etc, but in the end, they make so much money from us that it does little to their pocket and they still need the workers to remove the resources to make that money.

Remember that numbers dont lie, even without digging deep, someone crunched them here: The Tyee - The Era of Tax Cut Stupidity that Starved BC

so try to ignore the spin politicians of all colours put on things, just understand the numbers.
Remember society is supposed to improve the quality of life and capitalism was supposed to be the motivation, they are supposed to be linked. Taxes are the means in which capitalism supports a quality of life, but that system is only failing due to the believe that taxes are the most evil thing in the world.


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## Athomedad (Oct 8, 2011)

From a business perspective wages are a result of supply/demand. Are doctors more valuable than teachers? No. There's just fewer doctors because the training is so much more intense. If there was a shortage of teachers and the provinces had to compete for them, wages would go up.

IMO the strike is a poor idea that will only anger parents. 

I do support smaller class sizes & increased special ed funding but a 15% wage isn't happening.


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

Over the years I've know a handful of teachers as friends or at a social level. What surprized me at first was finding out how much unpaid time teachers put in, and how some of them use their own money for classroom projects. Given the long term importance to our society of good education generaly, and the impact made by committed teachers specificly, I find it absurd how little priority we put on supporting childhood education.

Y'all have my support.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

I've only had a few good teachers during my school experience. I'd definitely support giving them a raise, it's unfortunate that there isn't an incentive based system instead of a one fits all approach that includes those that just want to collect a pay check and kick the kids out as soon as the bell goes. I had a number of those teachers as well.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

collective bargaining is about bargaining, not sticking your head in the ground when you hear the opening offer.


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## mcrocker (May 29, 2010)

neven said:


> collective bargaining is about bargaining, not sticking your head in the ground when you hear the opening offer.


I agree with that statement, but demands like "26 weeks of paid leave to care for a person" might be why it's hard to use the opening offer as a starting point for negotiations. I think asking for a 15% raise over 3 years is totally reasonable. It's useful as a starting point for negotiation, whereas the request for 26 weeks of paid leave is not. JMHO.

Years of no raises while cost of living is going up and inflation is occurring must be very tough for these teachers, so I think they do deserve something. But if we pay teachers too much, people will start doing it for the money rather than the love of teaching! (okay the last part was a joke)


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

2 of my teacher friends will be homeless in a few weeks. Their job hours were cut back to only a couple hours a week. They had a hard time just getting by with a family to care for. They are both renters because they cant afford to buy a house or anything to live in. Even the rentals in town have gone up in price considerably. They both share the same landlord who sold their houses. Perfectly understandable, but now they will be homeless because they cant afford to go anywhere else. We want a cost of living increase to SURVIVE! I myself made about $20,000 last year. That is the most I have made EVER. I still don't hold a full time position nor a permanent position because of cuts. I buy all my own school supplies, and some supplies for kids to use too. If I need any resources for my subjects I need to buy them not the school. We do not get reimbursed. Lots of teachers are retiring and their jobs are not being replaced. Instead those students are being displaced into other classrooms thus increasing class sizes. Classroom composition has gone downhill fast. I have 6 kids on IEP's (individual education plans) in other words, kids with learning/behaviour disabilities and 4 that are not identified. Do I have an SSA in my classroom to assist these kids? NO! We should have 1 per 3 IEP kids. Do you have any idea how hard it is for the students who are able to cope to deal with the chaos this creates in a classroom. One IEP student acts up and by this I mean anywhere from needing one on one help to a full blown out tantrum, throwing things, etc. I can not remove this child because who will be left to watch the other 26 kids. Once this child is calm I go to another that needs help, then I need to go back to the first who is acting up again. I have a grade 7 who CANT READ! WTF!? This child needs to have an aid/SSA to help her specifically with these skills so she can function in life. Does she have one? No. why? because that job has been removed.
This is my day. I only work half time unless I get called in to sub in the AM. Typically I leave my house at 12pm. I get to the school at 12:10pm. I review the lessons, make sure the photocopies are done, update the homework board (because I wont have a chance to do it later), get the handouts ready, write the work on the board, set up anything I need for the lesson (projectors, overhead sheets, maps, pictures, posters, anything we need for a science Lab, etc), get the rest of my paperwork in order, update marks, and If I have time I will do some marking. Do I get paid for this? No. Then the kids come in at 12:50 from lunch. They do a critical thinking activity, or read silently, work on missing assignments, homework, etc. I walk around to see if any need help and to make sure they are on task. This is also a good time to review their grades and speak to any of them that need a talking too. Then we start either science or socials. Its a 45 minute lesson, then we do another 45 minute lesson, either art, computers, french, library time, or buddies. After I give 2 separate lessons; its a split 6/7 class I walk around to make sure all students are on task or give help when needed. I usually only make it to a handful of kids. I can only get to the ones that really need the help, and sometimes I cant even get to them. There is just no time. I have to give half ass help because I need to try and help as many as possible. 10 minutes before the bell they fill out their agendas and I sign them. They pack up and get ready to go. Bell goes at 2:45 and I dismiss them, not the bell. They only leave when their areas are clean. Some students stay afterschool for extra help. I help them. Sometimes parents come in to make sure their kids have everything, or they want to talk about their kids, etc. By this time it is usually 3:30pm. Finally I get to start marking. If I finish early I get as much ready for tomorrow as possible. I usually don't leave the school until 4:30 sometimes 6pm. Do I get paid for any time after the bell? No way in hell!
I still need to get home, make dinner, spend about 5 minutes with my husband before he leaves for work (graveyard shifts) and I spend some time with my almost 22 month old son. Lots of times such as today, I bring homework home. I actually have a lot to get done before work tomorrow because of the walkout. 
All this starts over again the next day. It never changes.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I think teachers deserve all our support. I've got several friends who ended up in the teaching profession after making a change in their careers from the for profit world. They wanted a change to do something that they felt would make a difference. I've kept in touch with them and for the most part, the comments are very similar. They love teaching, but they dislike the union environment. It really doesn't go hand in hand with what teaching is all about. To make a long story short, there was one incident shortly after he got his first permanent position where he made the mistake of staying behind a bit later to meet with some parents who wanted to chat about their kid's progress. This got back to the other teachers and he was told by the union rep that he should not be staying late to do such things and that he was making the other teachers look bad. That incident stuck with him and he's since left the public school system after several years of teaching and is now in the private school system. He now works longer hours and makes about the same money but with a much skinnier benefits package. He said he's much happier doing what he's doing now but to each their own. I don't think teachers get into teaching thinking their are doing it for a nice cushy union job. 

I think what a lot of people think teachers have this big fat pay package like federal employees and that's not really the case. Their wages are only so-so and they make up for some of that in benefits and future pensions. I think the government should be fair to the teachers but net zero is tough. No union in their right mind would ever accept a deal where they actually have to give things away. Only time it ever happens is when the employers hold a gun to their heads. i.e. The automakers in the states, Safeway Canada a few years back, Overwaitea...etc. Basically saying, give us concessions or we shut it down. 

Bargaining is bargaining, I wouldn't put so much into the rhetoric given by either side. Both sides always start at polar opposites, with no expectation of ever getting what they ask for first. This is just my $.0.02 having some experience in the labour negotiation field. Good luck to the teachers out there!


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

> I think what a lot of people think teachers have this big fat pay package like federal employees and *that's not really the case*. Their wages are only so-so and they make up for some of that in benefits and future pensions. I think the government should be fair to the teachers but net zero is tough.


There seem to be a lot of misconceptions floating around about what the teachers actually want. Everyone focuses on the wage increase and bennies, because that's black and white and it's easy to spin as "oh, these people are just greedy!", but that's smaller part of the things that are wrong in public education right now. It may be true for some people, but there are a lot of much cushier jobs out there where you don't have to get a second job in the summer or vacations because you are LAID OFF, not on holiday, you don't have to do unpaid work, you don't have to take several additional years of university, and don't have to deal with the flak that teachers get.

Everyone needs to be concerned about stuff like no classroom assistants for special needs kids, lack of prep time and all the stuff that goes into an actual quality education. I'm not a fan of the BCTF, but I do support the teachers. I remember similar strikes when I was in school, and for the same reasons. You cannot cut and cut and cut and keep a decent public edication system. You end up with a two-tier system and an uneducated underclass, which increases crime and social decay. Do we really want that? Look at the riots in the UK if you want an example of where that leads.


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## rich16 (Mar 25, 2011)

Elle said:


> There seem to be a lot of misconceptions floating around about what the teachers actually want. Everyone focuses on the wage increase and bennies, because that's black and white and it's easy to spin as "oh, these people are just greedy!", but that's smaller part of the things that are wrong in public education right now. It may be true for some people, but there are a lot of much cushier jobs out there where you don't have to get a second job in the summer or vacations because you are LAID OFF, not on holiday, you don't have to do unpaid work, you don't have to take several additional years of university, then work and don't have to deal with the flak that teachers get.
> 
> Everyone needs to be concerned about stuff like no classroom assistants for special needs kids, lack of prep time and all the stuff that goes into an actual quality education. I'm not a fan of the BCTF, but I do support the teachers. I remember similar strikes when I was in school, and for the same reasons. You cannot cut and cut and cut and keep a decent public edication system. You end up with a two-tier system and an uneducated underclass, which increases crime and social decay. Do we really want that? Look at the riots in the UK if you want an example of where that leads.


This nails it. My wife is a teacher, I am good friends with 11 other teachers. *deep breath before starting rant* I also am a parent of a child with special needs. So, I come at this from a bunch of different directions. The "spin" put on this in the media is definitely casting the teachers in a bad light. Case in point, the interview with parents who are all "Oh, a strike is so inconvenient, I don't know what I'm going to do, they shouldn't strike". Fine, but where are the interviews with the parents who are SUPPORTIVE of the teachers?? That would be the majority I've spoken to at my son's school.

I also agree that the BCTF needs a complete change of their leadership. They are not helping the cause, and Susan Lambert should not be allowed to talk on television any more.

This blog post by a Coquitlam teacher sums it up more eloquently than I could. It could've been written by my wife. Where this talks about carpenter ants, just substitue mice. Teaching in BC « Cheryl Angst, Writer

*Stopping before I get mad. Again.*


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

the powers that be want that undereducated underclass, those sort of people don't vote.

By any chance, was your teaching buddy starting out in the public sector when the contracts first were torn up? During that time, the teachers had to really clamp down to set the message, we do a lot more than we are paid for so take notice to it. They had no other way to voice their issues, since striking was made illegal. As a student, it sucked, but growing up following politics, i knew why they had to do it. One teacher doing their own thing does defeat the purpose of it. But since many teachers in my high school did a lot for the students outside of the class time, they at least left rooms opened for many of the core subjects, where peer to peer help happened. In other words, the students themselves stepped up to ensure they still didn't suffer education wise unless it was on their own accord. Rather than stay behind to talk to parents, if he was that concerned, he could have found alternate ways to still communicate with the parents.

In any unionized workplace there are always a few extreme unionists who need to make it painful for everything to happen. These are the villains so to speak to the business world, the ones that media focus's on, and the anti labour lobbyists. But the vast majority of people go with the status quo, mostly patiently waiting for these folk to finish their rants, then go on with their work, only stepping up for the core issues that come forth, like now.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I don't want to take someone's thread and make it into a union versus non union debate so I'll just leave it at that. I know its a sensitive issue for many and there's many merits and pros/cons.



neven said:


> the powers that be want that undereducated underclass, those sort of people don't vote.
> 
> By any chance, was your teaching buddy starting out in the public sector when the contracts first were torn up? During that time, the teachers had to really clamp down to set the message, we do a lot more than we are paid for so take notice to it. They had no other way to voice their issues, since striking was made illegal. As a student, it sucked, but growing up following politics, i knew why they had to do it. One teacher doing their own thing does defeat the purpose of it. But since many teachers in my high school did a lot for the students outside of the class time, they at least left rooms opened for many of the core subjects, where peer to peer help happened. In other words, the students themselves stepped up to ensure they still didn't suffer education wise unless it was on their own accord. Rather than stay behind to talk to parents, if he was that concerned, he could have found alternate ways to still communicate with the parents.
> 
> In any unionized workplace there are always a few extreme unionists who need to make it painful for everything to happen. These are the villains so to speak to the business world, the ones that media focus's on, and the anti labour lobbyists. But the vast majority of people go with the status quo, mostly patiently waiting for these folk to finish their rants, then go on with their work, only stepping up for the core issues that come forth, like now.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

rich16 said:


> I also agree that the BCTF needs a complete change of their leadership. They are not helping the cause, and Susan Lambert should not be allowed to talk on television any more.


This is a common issue in most unions here nowadays, so many young people simply don't care about where their money goes so all thats left is the same people to run the show. Only replacing people as needed, with little to no opposition. The few young people who do go are quickly put under the wing of the current group in power. Its a sad state, the worst part i hear in my union is when its election time, no one runs against them, everyone wants to be the person who complains, but not the person who can do something about it. Still though, its nice having a separate entity there that makes most employers think twice before treating its workers like dogs, even if they do have their flaws


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

tony1928 said:


> I don't want to take someone's thread and make it into a union versus non union debate so I'll just leave it at that. I know its a sensitive issue for many and there's many merits and pros/cons.


it is essentially that, except the children are used as political fodder. This is just another step towards further privatization of our education system.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

Yup, i agree. Only reason its front page instead of buried in the business section is because its dragged our kids into it. This is really a business issue at core. The rest is just window dressing for each sides own gains.



neven said:


> it is essentially that, except the children are used as political fodder. This is just another step towards further privatization of our education system.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

I can honestly tell you the ONLY thing all the teachers I have spoken to, including myself want are 1. First and foremost, MORE SUPPORT for out students. We have been asking and begging, and all we got were cutbacks then complete ILLEGAL stripping (as decided by the supreme court). 2. Cost of living increase. As I said, I know a couple people that will be homeless soon. We have put asking for money aside for years and years in order to get support for our students; in the meantime falling behind inflation and risking living states. But we were okay with that. Then the government took away everything we worked for and wants to take away even more. Its not fair on the kids nor the teachers. We are being set up to fail. I have already had to tell a few parents who asked for help that I didn't know what to do. There are no more programs, the aids that are available only have limited hours and are packed full. No more aid can be given at the schools. None, nothing, not even a drop to squeeze. Programs were completely shut down due to lack of funding. Kids are falling through the cracks and we cant do anything about it. Those cracks are going to get wider and wider. As it is I am terrified for about 70% of my students. I am trying to get them ready for highschool/middleschool (against requests from admin) so they don't get so shocked by the change. It is completely different from elementary school... at least the school I am teaching in now. It is such a slow process and I am sure it would be beneficial to have some support just for that. Parents are with me 100% for my highschool prep. I have a guaranteed number of students that will fail. I am not giving up on them, but if they don't get the assistance they need, they will fail. There is no way out for them. They wont get the help in highschool at all. Its worse off there than it is in the elementary school. I was so excited to start teaching elementary and get these kids ready. I knew exactly what to do, but its so much harder than I thought because of all this legislation stuff going on. I can only imagine what its like in the highschool. We didn't have access to anything. Conditions were horrible. I mean really bad safety wise and supplies for staff. It was so bad one time I had to call worksafe BC because we didn't have heat. It was freezing. We had to wear winter clothes to teach, students were huddled in blankets, I was pregnant and the cold gave me horrendous pains. I thought I was going to loose my son. A few teachers threatened to walk out because of it. We would have been fined. That was our option. Keep teaching in those conditions or get fined. I just moved my class down to the admin's office and taught there until the heat was fixed. It got the point across pretty fast. Funny that it was the only heated area in the entire school.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Sadly, any mention of having a wage tied into the cost of living = employer/government walking away from the table.


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## Insane in the Fish brain (Jan 10, 2012)

How can a person pass there entire high school by taking summer school and end up paying teachers a fraction of what they are paying them now. I say our whole learning system is screwed up. kids could literally pass grades 8-12 within 6 months. I consider them actually lucky now, I will agree with the teachers that actually deserve the raise but the bad teachers that are just in it for the money far far far out weigh the teachers that actually care about the students and what the government is actually doing. This fight in the end wont lead to anything. Its really the kids that are feeling the effects. No hate please...


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

skabooya, i mirrored your post to my facebook because i felt it really spoke volumes on the teachers side, heres a response i got:

"WHATEVER!!! I made $15,000 last year and I raise two kids on that, alone may I add. I have a place to live, and food on my table everyday. Yeah we don't have money for the extras, but we manage. I get a little help with money from my boyfriend, but not much.
Where's my money to get by, I can't strike, so teachers put on your big girl panties and suck it up."

I pretty much ripped them a new one over their ignorance and how the numbers dont add up, but sadly its people like this that will get the media spot light and make up many of the voters.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

> "WHATEVER!!! I made $15,000 last year and I raise two kids on that, alone may I add.


This is the kind of argument that makes me want to scream. It's the attitude that "well, my life is hard, so everyone else should shut up and suffer instead of trying to improve the lot for everyone". These are the people who NEED quality public education, so they have more choices in life than being stuck living with their 2 kids at poverty level as a single parent. At the very least, it will help their kids not repeat the same cycle.

THIS quote from Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) is about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. To me, it perfectly sums up what the governments, both federal and provincial, have been steadily doing to Canada, and what has been happening to our public school system.

_First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me._

If you don't speak out about the government destroying education, if you silently put up with cuts because you think the teachers are somehow trying to screw you over to get a better deal, if you let the smoke and mirrors distract you, this is where we end up.

If you want an explication of the reasoning behind this kind of attitude, read Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War by Joe Bageant. Very, very, very enlightening.

Anyway, enough threadjack.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Insane in the Fish brain said:


> How can a person pass there entire high school by taking summer school and end up paying teachers a fraction of what they are paying them now. I say our whole learning system is screwed up. kids could literally pass grades 8-12 within 6 months. I consider them actually lucky now, I will agree with the teachers that actually deserve the raise but the bad teachers that are just in it for the money far far far out weigh the teachers that actually care about the students and what the government is actually doing. This fight in the end wont lead to anything. Its really the kids that are feeling the effects. No hate please...


I've had bad teachers before, the majority of which were at bcit, not many bad ones in highschool and elementary school. Teachers have varying levels of attatchment to their students, and two of the best I've had were actually polar opposites of eachother, but both shared one thing, brutal honesty with your progress.

As for the standards, the government controls the standardized testing and curriculum. I was in a pilot program for math 12, they threw in 2 more units into the cirriculum and shortened one unit a little bit. The pace was so harsh that lessons went full swing on day one of the class, when 9 11 happened, the tv in the class turned off because there was simply no time. In the end the class deviated from the bell curve so much the lowest test score from each student had to be dropped.

That was the government pushing for higher standards without much consultation. then comes the mathematics A courses, communications (english for those with disabilities and those who were lazy). When they first started they were a good idea for those that needed the extra help, but should never have been allowed to graduate with just those. There were more loopholes with easy way out courses. The worst of it, was parents let their students choose these courses right from highschool entry, rather than wait for a recomendation from a teacher.

And now one more little point. When a child does bad, its now the systems fault, the parent complains to the teacher, the school and the government. So what better way to buy votes than to give parents what they want ways for their lazy misguided children to graduate. My parents always put 100 % blame on me for the marks I got, that doesn't happen as much anymore, even before 10 years ago parents were blaming the system for their failures to watch their childs education.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I think we've all had both great teachers and probably an equal number of poor ones. I know it will never fly but teachers should be remunerated on a merit based system. Having a typical union pay scale just doesn't reward teachers that are willing to go the extra mile. That goes for any profession honestly. Knowing that you will have a increase based simply on passing time is ludicrous. Should there be some basic increase? yes, but there should be a significant amount that is merit based.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

the issue with that is establishing a basis in which to grade the teachers, The sciences and math are easy to implement, but for language studies, phys ed, etc, there isn't as much of a basis. To use the class grades as a form of measurement could cause issues with honesty, if there's cash incentive, there could be tampering of scores or providing too specific help prepping for tests with the class. And then there is the randomness of students you get, why should having a greater IEP load negatively affect your wage? Its a difficult system to fairly implement and keep honest. Each system has its flaws, but atleast with teaching, the motivation for many comes with either passion for the subject they teach, or passion to teach itself. Those in it for the money chose the wrong field to make a living in


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

> teachers should be remunerated on a merit based system.


The problem with doing this is, as Neven points out, the fact that working conditions right now are setting teachers up to fail. How do you create a merit based system that can fairly grade a teacher in an inner city school where kids are coming to school hungry, inadequately clothed and may not even speak enough English to understand the lesson AND in the same system grade a teacher at a wealthy school where the kids have parents who pay thousands for extra tutoring, can afford the out of pocket costs for the kids with special needs to pay for their own classroom aide and where the kids never go hungry? How do you account for students who have special needs and need the extra attention from the teacher because they no longer have a classroom aide? How do you account for having several of those students in a class and what that effect has on other students and overall test scores? You can't, or at least not without assessing all those factors in each individual class, which is an impossibility.

Teacher discipline is a whole other ball of wax, and I completely agree that there needs to be accountability and no shielding of teachers who should not be teaching, whether it's for reasons of abuse or inappropriate behavior or simply for them not being responsive to the needs of their students. And that is also the crux of teaching to an arbitrary test score. You cannot try to teach all the students to "score" on a test and at the same time teach critical thinking and be responsible for handling all the different learning styles. All kids learn at different paces and in different ways, and a teacher should be responsible for helping kids LEARN and develop skills like critical thinking to prepare for life, not just memorize the curriculum.

They need to reinstate basic services: things like learning assistance centres, playground supervisors, school nurses and school librarians and aides for kids with special needs. They need to limit the number of special needs kids in any given class, or provide adequate support so the other kids get their fair share of attention. They also need to retool the whole damn curriculum, but that's another rant.

If the sticking point is teacher wage increases, well, do people have an issue with paying to reinstate these services that have been cut and cut again by the government, all without increasing teacher wages? How many teaching aides or school repairs would the money spent on the roof on BC Place have paid for? How many raises have been given to MLAs and the premier in the past 10 years? How have we come to agree somehow that the people who are spending 6 hours a day with our kids should have their valid concerns ignored and be demonized for the failures of the system when we are all complicit in it?

Parents who are howling about how the strike is an inconvenience and the teachers don't deserve a wage increase should instead be screaming their heads off about how the government's education cuts are shortchanging their kids. Because they are, and we're all going to pay for it.

And if you think that by "cutting costs" they are somehow going to plow whatever they supposedly "save" back into the system, well, I invite you to look at how well that worked for "improving" the health care system when they tore up the HEU contracts, and where that "saved" money went. Not into health care, that's for sure, just like education "savings" haven't stopped the gutting of the schools.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

LOL actually my WORST teachers got into it for the money. But that was years and years ago, back when BC was one of the highest paid, we had resources at our disposal and things were good. When I got into teaching I found out why these specific teachers were such buttholes. Out of their own mouths, they HATED kids. Well, it certainly showed. 
Now, no one goes into teaching for the pay. Some may think HEY summers off, only working 8-3 pretty good. Then they get into it and realize that we do not get paid over breaks like summer, we work in school during the regular school hours but 98% of the time we take work home or stay late so really our days are 7-4 on average. Not including whatever time is done at home and on the weekends for school. Some teachers need to take a second job for the summer. Teaching is a lifestyle which includes sacrificing family and friends. Give people with this mentality 5 years and they will be out. That is the statistical average for new teachers. The majority of new certified teachers only last 5 years, tops. Let me tell you. I am just past that mark and I have thought about leaving the profession because of all the bull. I went into teaching to help kids. To educate, to make learning fun, to make a change, a difference in someones life to provide a safe place for them to come too, to give them someone they can trust, count on and talk to. That's why I became a teacher. Do I actually get to do these things? Its getting less and less every year and its breaking my heart. I ask for help and I have been told flat out "No!" I get blamed for all the wrong doings going on when I have no say in the matter. 
I hear a lot of why cant teachers do this, why cant they do that? Its their fault, etc etc etc. Yea ok its all our fault. We have no say in anything, we can argue but the employers general thinking is that we don't know what we are talking about.
In my science classroom at the highschool we had wooden boards covering the windows. They were not secured. TWICE they fell onto the heads of my students. Parents got mad at me. HEY, I complained and nothing was done. You know what I was told. Give them more of an angle so they don't fall over. People offered to sew curtains for the classroom and they were told no. It took the daughter of our union president at the time to get hit in the head with one of the boards before something was done. Did we get curtains? No. They removed the boards and left the windows bare. So, any use of projectors (overhead or otherwise) was out of the question. The classroom either became too hot or too cold. Then they decided to paint the walls with some kind of asbestos sealant. It was toxic, had a very slow drying time, fumes could be smelled all down the hall and made people throw up, and they did it during class time. I was blamed. I asked for a new temporary classroom and I was refused. It was all my fault according to the parents. And now the employer was getting mad at me because of my requests for a safe environment to teach. I taught lessons outside in the snow or in the cafeteria with the other teachers dealing with the same thing. 
Should parents be mad, HELL YES! but not at teachers. The majority genuinely want to help, some are turning out to seem like they have a cold heart because they have been burned. I feel like I am heading that way too.  I don't want too and I hate it but that's what its seems like its gonna end up being. (that's another story).

As for the person that mentioned the $15,000 a year. Where does she live? What resources are available to her? In our small town we don't have many resources. The cheapest rent is $800/month for a 1 bedroom apartment. I know this because my sister in law is on EI ($560/month). She cant afford a place to live so she hooked up with some guy just so she and her daughter can have a roof over their head. At that income she is declared poverty. No one wants to be in that position and they shouldn't be. God forbid that something happens to the place she lives in because she wouldn't be able to afford to fix it. I just had to spend $48,000 to fix the outside of my house. Looks? no not really. We needed to re-shingle our roof, new windows to replace our broken seal ones, with that the old aluminum siding had to come off, vents had to get put into our house and we needed to re-side our house. We had to get new doors, some didn't lock right and some were just broken; a safety hazard. We saved up for years to do that. But it was much more than we thought it would be. Recently as last week our hot water tank started leaking. We had to replace the tank $800 not including running new pipes for the different shape. We had to buy them twice because the copper pipe had a pin hole in it. I just got more stuff for my SW tank and received a shock when the shipping came. It was much more than was quoted. (I use my gift money that I get for birthdays, Christmas, etc to get tank stuff). 
When the school asks for $ to take kids on field trips or other enrichment activities they cant go I'm sure. What happens when the government says all kids must have a laptop or Ipad in class? They are not paying for it. The parents have too pay for this expensive stuff. It has been discussed and it looks like in the next few years this will be implemented. How are the parents making $16 or less a year supposed to afford this stuff? They cant, and the government wont give any funding to help them out. They are being set up to fail.
She says she can feed her family etc because she doesn't have the extras. I got into this argument with my church marriage councillor once who told me 6 kids don't cost more than 1. Give me a break. People in most cases need a vehicle to get to work. Some don't. I don't have one, I walk to work. My husband has a truck and its a working truck, not a fancy ooo look what I have truck. He needs to drive to and from work. We also use it for EVERYTHING. People don't need TV sure so do away with that. People don't need cell phones in general but they do need A phone. The internet... no, but is quickly becoming a necessity for the basic things we do in everyday life. Its not all entertainment for some people.
Do we eat KD or Raman every day? no, but some people are pretty much at that because that's all they can afford. That's pretty sad and its not healthy. I only buy clothes that are on sale and my clothes are used until they are falling apart or they just don't fit. The price on T-shirts have gone up like crazy! Has anyone noticed? Seriously! I remember buying regular priced shirts for $20 and now they are $60. WOW! Sale prices are now $20 or less. WTF!
My house was purchased at a very good time. I got it for $158,000 for a 2600sqft home. NICE! but run down. Now that price would get you a house less than half the size of mine run down. By run down I don't mean "ohhh its outdated" I mean toilets don't work, gutters falling off, sewage backed up (happened in this house), roof replacing, etc
I feel bad for her only making that amount of money. But depending on where you live and the resources available to you, it just isint enough. This school year I will make about $15,000 (thats an overestimate) before taxes. The $20,000 I mentioned before was when I was working a full time temporary position and that was before taxes.

As for paying teachers based on merit or whatever. I don't agree. That MIGHT work if class compositions were balanced and everything was as it should be (student support workers, etc). The way it is now, NOT A CHANCE! More kids are failing than there should be and its directly because of the cutbacks. 

A teacher friend of mine, teaching primary, just spent $900 on school supplies yesterday for her classroom. (crayons, glue, pencil crayons, pencils, paper, booklets, etc). My mom was with me when she saw this and she was disgusted. She asked, doesn't the school supply that stuff? They used too. I told her no, because they don't. General art supplies yes, like paper and paint. She then asked, do you get reimbursed or get a tax break for that stuff. I told her No. Things aren't what they used to be.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

Elle: I want to like your comment but the like button isn't there. Well said.


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## TomC (Apr 21, 2010)

Athomedad said:


> From a business perspective wages are a result of supply/demand.


 Our children are not a business. From a business perspective it could be argued that it is cheaper to use volunteer firefighters and hire minimum wage security guard companies as police. That approach wouldn't work there, and not for teachers either. As far as the teachers are concerned, a fair and impartial mediator is the way to go.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

It is due to my refusal to live with this kind of bs that I twice decided not to do the teaching program at SFU even though I was accepted twice. I'm a workaholic and don't mind the long hours. I also worked as a substitute elementary, middle school and high school teacher up in Powell River for 6 months, as well as a sub. instructor at Malaspina College. I love working with kids and teaching, but I know that I would eventually lose my cool and start telling those bloody decision-makers what I really think of their decisions.

I really feel bad for you Skabooya and your fellow teachers up in Kitimat. By a stroke of luck, I just got off the phone with my friend who may be going up to Kitimat soon for a camp job. If he does, I'll send up some boxes of stuff for you and your students. PM your clothing sizes and I'll see how much stuff I can collect down here to send up with my buddy Dean. Send me a list of your greatest needs & we'll see what we can do. 

I imagine everything up there is at least twice as expensive as down here.

We can also collect up some non-perishables to help out your "about to be homeless" teacher friends.

Do you need baby stuff??? How old is your baby? Our younger daughter is now 8 months so anything she has outgrown we can send up to you too if it'll fit in Dean's vehicle. 

I don't know how much room he'll have but he's a single dad himself so he'll understand and be willing to help.

Anthony


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

I myself am not up in a hard way. Others are much worse off. There is a facebook group created called "pay it forward Kitimat". It is for anyone in need. I have posted some things to give away. I feel like I am blessed to have what I do have and as far as what is going on in town we are doing ok. Im not going to ask for anything Im not in need of. If I can maintain my hobbies and have a tv and internet, a roof over my head and good food on the table all the time then I have nothing to complain about. I am voicing the concerns of others who have little to nothing. I can ask to see what people need. I lived in Burnaby for a year and a half and the prices weren't too bad but a lot of needed things were easy to find and there were lots of opportunities and options for things. We don't have options in our town other than to do shopping in the next one.

I will ask around and even post in the group as to what people need. I will talk to Debbie (teacher going homeless) and see what she needs, if she needs anything. I know she is already getting some help now with people offering a temporary place to sleep while she looks for another option. 

Whatever if anything is sent down I will post to the pay it forward site for those really in need.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

PS my baby will be 22 months on the 5th and he is doing quite well.  Love him to bits, hes such a sweetheart and even at this age thinks of others. What a humanitarian. lol


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

GREAT NEWS! A couple families banded together to buy the House Debby was staying in so she doesn't become homeless  That may be a nightmare onto itself BUT SHES GOING TO HAVE A HOME!!!


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

kudos to the person raising a family on $15,000 a year: if you can pull that off you must be an amazing manager (I mean that sincerly, not sarcasticly). However, $15,000 a year is not a living wage, not in this culture with housing, food and utilities costing what they do. Never mind clothing, transportation etc. No matter how you look at it, that's poverty, and while I admire you for making it work, it is unreasonable that you should have to. I live on a disability pension of $900 a month and, after rent, utilities and phone am left with $100 a month for food, laundry, clothes etc. (I can only afford the aqua hobby because I've been lucky enough to be able to breed and sell enough fish to make it pay for itself.) I don't know how _you_ do it.

Legislated poverty is not a reasonable approach to running an economy or maintaining a skilled work force. Not supporting puplic education (from wages to programs and everything in between) sells short our future. Our culture has become obsessed with the short term bottom line and has forgotten how to think ahead past the next quarterly earning report. It's an American approach, and you can see how well it's served them.


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## Athomedad (Oct 8, 2011)

Tom C, my point was that there are 1000 qualified people waiting for jobs right now willing to work for the current wages. The government knows this and therefore the union is not in a very good bargaining position. If there was a shortage of qualified workers, than the union would have leverage. IMO there should be an increase in qualifications to weed out the people getting into it for the wrong reasons. I dated 3 teachers and trust me, they got into it for the wrong reasons.

FYI all of the other previously negotiated net zero contracts have a 'me too' clause where the government will have to give the same wage hike if they break the net zero for any contract. If the teachers get a raise, every public sector employee gets a raise. The reality is there is no money right now. If they give everyone a raise they go deeper into deficit and our children have to carry that burden.

Also, what the union is doing is called 'high-balling' where you go in with a ridiculously high offer and then you can say 'Well look how many concessions we've made.' Its a tactic that won't work and will only make people think the union is greedy.

Don't get me wrong, I love my daughter's teacher and in return I volunteer weekly to help her out and we gave her a $100 christmas gift because she's worth it. I just don't see any raises happening and it's not because I don't think they are worth it. They are, there is just no money.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

skabooya said:


> GREAT NEWS! A couple families banded together to buy the House Debby was staying in so she doesn't become homeless  That may be a nightmare onto itself BUT SHES GOING TO HAVE A HOME!!!


Awesome. BTW, I talked to Dean and if he gets the camp job, he'll be up in 3 to 4 weeks and he's happy to bring stuff up. Do you need salt or anything for your tanks?? Free shipping is something you should take advantage of if this works out.


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## Hammer (Apr 22, 2010)

One element to this is that B.C. teachers are paid way lower then their counterparts in many other provinces. Ironically, some of these provinces we subsidize as B.C. is a "have province". Another reality was said so beautifully earlier, referring to social chaos in Britain. A strong public education system is essential because it a social leveler, you can enter in kindergarten and end up with an MBA from an excellent university, or you can be the CGI animator who works for Disney. Of course, you have to have a certain aptitude and attitude to do any number of things. The major point being any agent that undermines this process is either purposely or accidentally insidious and the net result will be an extremely dichotomous society. There are those people who don't remember their schooling positively (there are some duds, I agree, but there are duds everywhere). The irony being that they are fluently writing their complaints and have a number of other basic foundations that allowed to have an income that afforded there computer and I assume a fish tank. Gee....I guess I'll have to Mrs. Crabapple for teaching me to read. By the way, most teachers put in the equivalent to about an average of about 10 extra hours a week (beyond what their salary is based on).

Just my 2 cents and as products of a still intact education system, I invite your feedback.


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## skabooya (Jun 15, 2010)

BC teachers are paid 9th overall in Canada. Alberta teachers get an average of $20,000 more. 
As for me I am personally not living off of just 15,000. It changes every year and my husband works for a good company. Both of our incomes together mean that we are doing ok. I cant say that for many others.
I told a few about your offer and I have yet to hear from anyone. I just received an order from JLA so I don't need anything for my tanks  Im good.

Still, my main concern are the kids. They are the ones who will be suffering the most. They are still developing and need guidance through their lives to make good choices and to have basic skills. 
School isint about learning about Egypt, etc. All of those assignments we get them to do teach them about teamwork when we do group projects, looking at different perspectives of thinking, getting your work complete and in on time. Just like in the real world if you don't get your work done and do it on time, or don't show up, you get fired. They learn how to organize, and of course basic math, writing, reading, etc. 
You would be surprised what you learn in school and actually use in the real world. I have surprised myself a few times and thought Oh Crap! why didn't I pay more attention to this in school.


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## Ursus sapien (Apr 21, 2010)

Neven mentioned that he had a number of bad teachers and that`s certainly true for me, too. But there are bad or indifferent employees in every job settings. For me, those teachers (a few of whom were very hurtful) are completely overshadowed by the likes of Helen Stolte, Janet Alexander, Georgina Thornstensen, Paul Carino and John Barbush - teachers so impactfull that I remember their names 35plus years later. They didn`t just fill my head head with facts (which, while useful still just makes you a fact- learner, to quote astrophysicist Neil Degrass Tyson); they stoked my curiosity, my love of history and language, my obsession with the natural world and the universe beyond our skies. They inspired a life-long love of learning and taught critical thinking.


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## IceBlue (Mar 17, 2011)

Don't you just love those shiny new hydro meters. I think they're only going to cost us a little over a billion dollars. (seriously). Little quiz, do you know of another priority where we could have spent that money?

Although there is alot of hard issues here I am sure heartened by the level of unsderstanding and thought that have went into these posts.

As far as us needing a good education system, Elle is bang on. The mindless manufacturing, processing jobs are leaving and won't be coming back till we are the new Pakistan or Mexico (willing to work for a dollar an hour) so education is the only way we will maintain any semblence of our present wealth.


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