# Planted Tank-Non-Co2-Low Tech-No WC



## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

Has anyone here ever try Planted Tank with No Water Changes? I'm going to give it a go. My Tank is a Heavily Planted 33gal. Low Light (1.8w),with no Co2 added,I'll be adding Trace Ferts once a week,and eco-complete is My Substrate. I have a pretty high evaporation rate about 2.5 gals a week that I will top off every Sunday and add the Trace. My Filtering will be on the heavier side with 2 HOB's a Whisper 30 and 20,this way I will interchange cleaning always having one still beneficial at all times. At the moment Tank has been established for 5 months and Plants have taken well,experimenting with diff. Species all the time,I even added My first Marimo Moss Ball today,so I may add 3 or more Plants yet. Too many Plants to mention but most are easy growing Plants,Java Fern,Crypts,ludwigia,Potemageton Gayi,Hygrophilia Pinnatifida,etc.etc.

I've been reading Tom Barr's idea's on Low Tech Non co2 Planted Tanks,it's got My interest peaked,especially after seeing some results of other Peoples tanks,some going 3+ years and beyond with only water top offs. I'll go with My Fish's own bio-load being the main ferts,I don't have a problem with My Plants growing on the slower side,so will wait and see...I'm sure after the first month I'll be antsy about WC's,I do them religiously especially on My 125gal..once a week.

So,anyone of you Plant Guru's ever given this a try!?:lol:

My only concern of course is the Fish,but I will be watching closely for any hints of trouble.I'm actually kind of excited to see what will happen in time,oh I will be adding aged room temp. water to the Tank,not straight out of the Tap.Will let everyone know how it progresses,I'm on My second Week,I'll give updates as the Months go bye (That's if everything go's according to plan),Wish My Tank Luck!


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## punchbuggy (Apr 21, 2010)

i haven't tried but personally I think it is harder. If your bioload = plant uptake obviously that will be perfect. But we know that isn't true. So yes, what if at some point for some reason there is a bioload spike the plants won't be able to uptake the nitrates (assuming the ammonia gets converted that far along anyways), your fish might suffer.

In addition, my mine worry are just TDS or total dissolved solids. If you don't do water changes and only top off, slowly over time you are adding more and more minerals that will have a negative impact on not on the fish but on the plants. Unless you are tpping off only with RO/DI water. But still, your TDS will go up. 

I've seen these tanks, but on a much smaller scale, 10g. So good luck!


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

I always wondered about this too. Would you like to start new journal and keep us posted?


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

Actually I was thinking of keeping a journal,but I'm not sure how commited I will be? I'm going into my 3rd week of topoff right now but everytime I look at My Fish I'm already getting panic attacks just thinking of no WC's :lol:,I'm just concerned because I know I have a little too much Fish in there than recommended which is why I have 2 Filters (I always over Filter anyway) to help out. Luckily I have 5 Tanks so I can always thin some Fish to other Tanks if Bioload seems too high.

I think finding the right Balance between Fish/Plants is tough anyway to figure out. But the more I Google and read of successes I'm hoping I stick with it,a month with no WC is no big whoop but once I get to 2months and beyond that will be the test for Me.I feel putting as much Plants in the Tank as possible is the key,I still Plan on adding a few more in the next week.

Punchbuggy,there was an answer to your question but I unfortunately can't find it (I looked at so many posts/threads) but I recall bacteria in the water plays a roll? Maybe someone here may of heard of Tom Barr's answer to that question?,Anywho,depending on how it go's I will certainly let everyone know how it progresses.

Maybe for best interests sake a Moderator wouldn't mind moving this topic to Tank Journals if you deem it proper. Thanks


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## punchbuggy (Apr 21, 2010)

I guess bacteria can. It will reduce your ammonia and your nitrites to nitrate, and then if you have enough plants they can uptake that. But you know, fish poop and dead plants will also release other minerals that might not be used by bacteria. Excess say iron or phosphate. I'm pretty sure algae will love those. Good luck!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Phosphate and iron are also utilized by higher plants. I would say, if the evap and top off rate was slow, it's more likely you'll have to add minerals if the plant load to fish load ratio is high. But you won't know without testing. Are you testing every few days to see what the levels are?


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

My evap. rate is quite high about 2 1/2+ gal. a week,reasons may be that temp is 80-82 (rising to 82 by evening) HOB waterflow and airstone,I was turning airstone on only at night but keep it on 24hrs now. So instead of topping off water daily I just top-off once at end of week adding the trace ferts. (Which I will eventually stop doing in time).
I turned the temp. down today,would rather run at 78-80 (Bulbs/Light when on seems to heat an extra 2 degrees over the day).

I was curious today and did check the water parameters,Ammonia 0.0,Nitrites 0.1,Water Hardness 80 ppm,and Ph 7.2. they say you shouldn't have to do testing only if you want to, but in the beginning I would think it's hard not to do just out of curiosity.

I have a 3 gal that I've been doing this for 5 months,I male Betta and 3 Otto's,Fish are doing Great,Plants are Hair Grass,Dwarf Sag.,Some Floating Plants,etc. Growing Well,probably because of 15w Bulb and low depth,and all I ever do is top-ups,and 1 HOB Whisper have yet to clean Filter (W/Flow still strong).

But I'm guessing Larger Tanks will be more tricky? There are People out there that even have Discus and don't do weekly WC's with this method,WC's are advised only when doing large Plant Moving/Changes/Uprooting etc. and you're advised to do this only once every 3-6 months if you have too.

What I find interesting about this whole idea is that you will have an ecosystem basically working on it's own,with you only feeding Fish and Water Top-ups,no fancy Co2 systems, etc. Planted Tanks look just as beautiful but take longer to grow,saw some Beauty's out there,a very interesting Method and Topic.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Unless plants absorb hormones, your fish will likely get stunted without water changes.


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## Shell Dweller (Jul 11, 2010)

I have a 33 gallon tank which I would say is a very heavily planted tank with around 13 different specimens and multiples of some of those, all growing in pebble sized gravel. I have 3 petite anubas, which are probably 1 foot across, amazon swords, flame moss, and java ferns to name a few. Cant remember all the names. There are 6 black skirt tetras, 1 cory, 3 BNP, a few cardinals, 2 mountain minnows, 3 glowlight tetras and 4 barbs. All my plants grow well, have nice colour, and flourish. I dont treat the plants with fertilizers, do weekly gravel cleaning and a 20% w/c adding Aqua Plus, and have 2 t5 36 inch bulbs which are on approx 6 hours daily. When I first started this tank 8 months ago I was getting algae growth on the plants, gravel and glass. After 4 months it all disapeared and I dont have any algae now. I am running an XP1 and clean this about every 3 months. This is my favourite tank to look at only because of the plants themselves. I am going to post a pic in the upcoming tank photo contest.


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## discuspaul (Jul 2, 2010)

This is really a very good thread. I'm anxious as anyone else to see how things turn out as time goes on. Looking forward to further posts.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

It's officially One Month today with No Water Changes. I won't do Parameters check today since I did it a week or so ago,I'm not sure how often I will do checks? But I'm assuming some People out there would like to know,so I may do them at the end of each Month.

I will take Pics each month to show changes (Is there info on this Site how to do?,I don't have photobucket,etc. which I'm sure I need) as of now I've noted some growth on the Amazon Swords which surprised Me,Java Ferns have these plantlet growths from Leaves sprouting everywhere,Ludwigia and Hygro also growing well,I don't know names of all the Plants some were Hitchikers,but once I figure out how to post Pics you will be able to see for yourselves. One thing though some of My Crypts are Melting,I'm guessing it is since I've started using Flourish they haven't taken kindly to it,or I changed Bulb position...Aqua-Glo to Front and Power-Glo to Back,but I feel it's the Flourish doing it.

The Fish are doing Fine,no signs of Stress noted and no deaths,I'll tell you My Fish load in 6 months or so right now I'm too embarrassed,lets just say I went abit crazy at the last VAHC Auction!

A couple things of note,I would have liked to have used Excel but have stopped trying after noticing stress and deaths from My Cories, and My remaining Cories have done Excellent since I stopped (No Excel used in 1rst Month No WC) and is why Airstone was running,I'm continuing running the Airstone more out of Paranoia for the Cories benefit, other Fish were Fine during dosing even at 1/2 doses Cories suffered,another + My Silver Hatchets avoid the Air Stone and there's a slight opening to jump there. 
I'm topping up the Water Sat. Evenings and adding Flourish the Next day,I'm thinking now maybe Seachem Equalibrium may have been a better choice? I've got the Flourish Comprehensive now so I will Use it till empty.

Algae,NO MAJOR ALGAE GROWTH...I can only find a few Tufts of BBA on One Driftwood and it isn't much,and on a few tips of Java Fern near Top of Water Surface where the Otto's seem to avoid. This is another reason I only add the Trace Ferts once a week and not 2 or more.4 large Otto's and 1 BNP are the algae Caretakers in the Tank.

I can't think of anything else to say other than I replaced one Filter Pad in one of the Whispers and I don't use Carbon,waterflow throughout the Tank seems fine,NEVER any leftover food remaining on Tank Floor (gone by 10-15 minutes) so as of now everything seems great.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

You could probably get away with dosing metricide once a week on the driftwood to get rid of the eyesore. If you turn off the filter, let it sit on that area, it should turn red, and die off (whats left is greatly weakened). I've tried manual removal from driftwood before and sure you can get rid of a lot, but more often than not, some floats away and grows elsewhere. The java fern you can trim away the leaves when they become an eyesore.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

Well I'm "SORRY" that I haven't been keeping a Monthly Journal which I thought of doing but instead I decided I'll just pop in and occasionally mention progress and observations of Tank.

"Ten Months of Water Top Offs Only"

The Water Test's are the following:

Ammonia: 0.....10 months ago also: 0
Nitrite: 0.1...10 months ago also : 0.1
Water Hardness 300 ppm....10 months ago : 80 ppm
PH: 6.0........10 months ago 7.2
*Note: Even though My Fish Stock seemed fine with the PH I personally don't like it that low,so I was recommended to try a Large Size Barnacle to raise PH,I hid it so it couldn't be seen and as of Present (2 weeks now) PH is 6.8 and staying constant.

Well I feel that the Eco-Complete after a few months finally lost it's PH buffering capacity,when I intially put it in it was a crazy 7.6 and eventually lowered as the months went by.I was very suprised that I wouldn't have at least stayed around Neutral after time. I tried Alkaline Buffers and it just wouldn't work,so right now Barnacle doing it's job.
You can also see the Water hardness skyrocketed.I don't see any adverse effects to Plants or Fish though.

"Fish" I'm surprised to say are doing Great! Mostly Tetra Species and Cories,Only losses I had were 1 Yo-Yo Loach which surprised Me, but then again with My experiences with Loaches are they prefer a MUCH higher PH than 6.0. My Silver Hatchets all performed Hari Kari. I've now switched to Marble Hatchets and safe proofed the Top of Tank a bit better,it never ceases to amaze Me how they can find those damn cracks/openings.
I also noted My Sterbai's breeeding and laying eggs. (Too bad they always get eaten).

No stunted Fish Growths observed,Cardinals are Huge and Siamese Algae Eater is Full Grown (Glad I didn't buy 3-4 that LFS suggested,1 in a 33 gal is Best especially since I also have Otto's and a Bushynose Pleco). So as of now Fish look very healthy and not the least bit stressed.

"Plants" WOW! not too shabby of results!, Amazon Sword twice it's size,all Stem Plants are constantly reaching top of surface and spreading.
I now know I screwed-up by not doing enough trimming maintenance,at one point if You were to look down from Top of Tank it was a virtual Mass of Plants.so some of the Dwarf species were suffering from lack of light. I recently did MAJOR trimming and freed the Surface somewhat and by doing so introduced more light,and quite honestly I started seeing instant results (wish I had done sooner!) I swear the Amazon's instantly perked up along with the other Species. I thought the Thick Jungle Look was cool at first, but noticed esthetically when trimmed Tank looks Brighter and Fish happier with more room to Swim.

"No BBA!!!" and I mean NONE,it all eventually just disappeared which was awesome,I think no WC's plays apart in that along with Heavier Plant Growth.
I only add Seachem Comprehensive (3 ml.) once every 2 weeks which is also when I do My Water Top-up. At this point I really don't know if it's necessary but I will use up the whole Bottle anyway.

"My Lighting" seems to be doing the Trick,and the Bulbs are near a Year Old,I still would like better lighting but if it works why fix it? Plus I don't mind the rate of speed in the Growth,if anything I will do more Pruning. 

I can't think of anything else to add,but I do seem to have found the right Balance in Plant and Fish Load,Which is heavy on both ends.I also would like to try a couple Plants on the "Red" Side to see what happens,I did have a tiny Carpet of Baby Tears growing but unfortunately it kept getting uprooted by the BushyNose and Khuli Loaches.

Sorry no Pics,I'm trying My best with Camera just can't get satisfying pics,but I did open a Photobucket account! So there is some hope!


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

thats good to hear, glad its working out for you. I am curious how high your TDS is being driven up, at a certain point it may start affecting fish health, but the best part is you just do a water change and then wait a year or two more  As for why your fish have been fine, the increase in dissolved solids has slowly increased allowing them plenty of time to adjust without stress.
one common parameter missing is nitrates, a rather important one
Im sure your SAE got hungry with that BBA, once its there something needs to remove it or melt it, i've never heard of it just disappearing.

I cant wait to see the pictures, and i do have a question, what is your lighting? not in watts per gallon. Type of bulb, how many of them, height from the substrate, and if the fixture is the full length of the tank. It would be nice to see just where you fall in terms of estimated PAR, that way it could help someone else trying to mimic your set up with different lighting since the WPG is misleading. many of the low light tank people dont give much information on what worked for them, just mainly that it does work


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

Hello Nevin & Thanks!

I have an unusaul Sized Fl. Canopy that I purchased over 25 years ago,it's 40"x11" that I've formatted to fit over My 33 gal. Tank.
It houses a 36" Power-Glo 30 watt Fl. Bulb and a Aqua-Glo 36" 30 watt Fl. Bulb so 2 in total,I would say it's about 16" from Substrate.
They say in time the Bulbs lose there potency after a Year and Dim somewhat,I have a Spare of each on Hand...LOL! 25 years I've had these Bulbs and Canopy and I'm finally putting them to use.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

Ok,I'm going to try an upload pics for the first time so bear with Me Please. I will have a Shot of How the Tank looked like when I started and how it looks today (after major trimming). Now as you can see Water Top-ups WORK....BUT as of this month I have decided to do Water Changes! Why? because lifes to short and the Fish deserve good Water Quality and I really don't mind doing W/C's. Personally to Me it just doesn't seem right not doing them regardless if Plants are doing well.I'm the Fish's caretaker and I want them to remain Healthy and Happy.But it was an Interesting Experiment.









Beginning (Start) of Tank,Approx. Dec. of 2011









Planted Tank Today.



















I've done a Couple W/C's now,I may do 1 a month or 2,haven't really decided yet but even once a month is better than None (Right?)
Hey,this posting Pics is easier than I thought!:lol:


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## jobber (May 14, 2010)

Nice looking plants. Healthy and lush. I'm sure you can get away with monthly water changes. 

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