# 210gallon uneven level!!



## CALC (May 13, 2010)

Hi guys, 

I just got a 210 gallon 6'x2' ,everything ready, when i was filling the tank up with water, then I noticed the water level is uneven by 1 inch...
what do you guys suggest? any help would be great! 

Thanks!


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

That's a pretty significant difference in level. I would empty the tank and see what's causing the issue. Most likely culprit is the floor. You might want to shim the stand on the side that is out. Just get a decent length level, like a 3 or 4 foot level and shim it up until it reads level. For minor differences you can use wood or composite shims that are sold at home depot. For bigger differences, you may need to find some solid material to rest the stand on to make up some of the big difference.


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## SeaHorse_Fanatic (Apr 22, 2010)

Yes, I would deal with the problem now & simply empty & shim the tank. I have a huge level if you live near Burnaby and want to borrow it.


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## CALC (May 13, 2010)

If i shim the tank by one the lower side, then would the stand still have enough support for the tank? or should i go home depot and custom make a wood board and place it under the whole stand?


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

CALC said:


> If i shim the tank by one the lower side, then would the stand still have enough support for the tank? or should i go home depot and custom make a wood board and place it under the whole stand?


Depends on what type of stand and how its made.As long as you support all the vertically running boards you should be fine .I would put up some pics if you can . If you have more than 4 legs ,definetly support the center ones as well . Where r u located EN means nothing to me


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## CALC (May 13, 2010)

oh..opos...i am located in Vancouver East


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## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

The right way to do it is to fix the floor. If that's not possible then make alterations to the stand. A full inch off is a lot to ask of a few shims so I'd only rely on shims as a last resort.

Last, but not least: *NEVER EVER PLACES SHIMS DIRECTLY UNDER THE TANK ITSELF!!!!*. If you must use shims, shim the stand and NOT the tank.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Styrofoam would help dramatically under the aquarium. that looks like a very nice custom stand, unfortunately there is no cushion to absorb the weight and level things out. 1/2" of styrofoam would make a huge difference, maybe enough but you wont know until you try. Regardless, without any foam on a set up like that is asking for trouble.....


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## gimlid (Apr 23, 2010)

If it was me I would use a table saw (borrow if you have to) and make gradually thicker strips and straddle the width of the stand at the base. Going from back to front .
I would not want just the end of one side elevated.
that looks like a very well constructed stand, but the weight would put huge stress on the base and likely harm it.
Take your time and do it right or you may wish you had later.
Just my opinion.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Stay thirsty my friend.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

Yeah, shims would only be for MINOR adjustments. But like others have said, if its an inch out, you are talking about quite a bit and you really need to be fixing the floor. That being said, its not exactly easy to fix an out of level hardwood floor. You could remove the flooring, put down some self leveling cement and reinstall the floor. Alternatively, you need to find something to put under the stand that will provide even support to the stand where it makes contact with the floor. Not so easy. My stand from way back was out a bit on one side....not as much as you, and I was able to put some squares of thin carpet tiles under there to take up some of the gap. I could have used some thin hard linoleum squares I suppose. I was able to lay out enough sheets of it, stacking some of them depending on the gap, to fill in most of the gaps under the stand. Worked well for me for many years.


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## CALC (May 13, 2010)

so i should put some foam anyways..?



Rastapus said:


> Styrofoam would help dramatically under the aquarium. that looks like a very nice custom stand, unfortunately there is no cushion to absorb the weight and level things out. 1/2" of styrofoam would make a huge difference, maybe enough but you wont know until you try. Regardless, without any foam on a set up like that is asking for trouble.....


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## CALC (May 13, 2010)

I was thinking about the same idea, but with a big piece of custom measured thickness woodboard...would that work?


gimlid said:


> If it was me I would use a table saw (borrow if you have to) and make gradually thicker strips and straddle the width of the stand at the base. Going from back to front .
> I would not want just the end of one side elevated.
> that looks like a very well constructed stand, but the weight would put huge stress on the base and likely harm it.
> Take your time and do it right or you may wish you had later.
> Just my opinion.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

I would........


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## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Styrofoam would help dramatically under the aquarium. that looks like a very nice custom stand, unfortunately there is no cushion to absorb the weight and level things out. 1/2" of styrofoam would make a huge difference, maybe enough but you wont know until you try. Regardless, without any foam on a set up like that is asking for trouble.....


The necessity of using styrofoam under a framed tank like the OP has is a debatable point. In any event, 1/2 an inch of foam won't fix a full inch out of level. The bottom line is that the OP must do something about the floor and/or the stand.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

No amount of foam is going to help something that out of level. Even if foam is used, getting the tank as close to level as possible before hand is a must. If the tank was no framed, then I think the foam is a great idea, but in the standard stands, there's not even a bottom for the foam to sit on, just the frame. I bought my 125 from Big Al's in Richmond before it was Island Pets and the pine stand I got it with is bottomless. The frame of the tank sits on the frame of the stand. The bottom doesn't even touch anything so the frame supports all the weight.


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## CALC (May 13, 2010)

Thank you for all the suggestions guys, I am thinking to go with a big piece of custom measured thickness woodboard to go under the whole stand, and will put 1/2 foam or a bit thicker foam under the tank, my stand is not bottomless, would that work? maybe the best i can do other than fixing the floor...


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Sounds like a good way to go.


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

A 210 on a saggy floor? Man, I hope you've got insurance.  I think you've got to rethink the placement of your tank before you think about using shims.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

The floor is not saggy by the sounds of it, it is a hardwood floor which commonly is not super level. Most aquariums are on carpet, which gives some aid in leveling.


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## 182 (Apr 21, 2010)

I could see it being out of level by, perhaps, 1/4 inch, but doesn't an inch sound a little extreme? I guess saggy was the wrong word. Just seems to me that it'd best be against a load bearing wall where - theoretically - it'd be a more even keel.

...but I'm an apartment guy. Houses are far more organic creatures.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Even in a concrete condo, unless your place is custom built, the floors are never perfectly level. So the little bit of unevenness is no big deal. Just gotta get the stand level that's all.


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

First off a shim can be an inch thick or a 32nd of an inch.thick doesnt realy matter  secondly putting styrofoam under that tank would be probably the worst thing you could do period ! Argue all ya want but unless you are going to cut out 3 pieces and insert them up in the pockets left by the braces ( bet that tank has them ) and being sure that its NO thicker than the depth of the opening ( otherwise there will be an UP pressure on the bottom pane ) And you would only do that if you were putting 4 or 5 hundred pounds of rocks in it..ie a salt water tank.
Styrofoam should ONLY and ALWAYS be used under a flat bottomed tank ( one that the bottom glass comes in contact with the suface of the stand or has the slightest chance of doing so.) for example if you have a tank that has less than 3/16 of an inch and only then I would use a piece no thicker than 1/4 inch. I have a flat bottomed tank that sits on a 1 inch piece of foam as I had 2-3 hundred pounds of rocks in it. The problem you will have with thicker foam on a tank with a recess is that the outer frame will compresse the foam to a greater extent than the glass will causing additional up pressure on the glass.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I owned a brand new condo a couple years back and the floors were far from level. When we put in hardwood, we had to do a lot of leveling. Most condo's use carpets which is cheaper and also allows them to cheat on the leveling as it isn't nearly as important for carpeting.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Aquaman said:


> First off a shim can be an inch thick or a 32nd of an inch.thick doesnt realy matter  secondly putting styrofoam under that tank would be probably the worst thing you could do period ! Argue all ya want but unless you are going to cut out 3 pieces and insert them up in the pockets left by the braces ( bet that tank has them ) and being sure that its NO thicker than the depth of the opening ( otherwise there will be an UP pressure on the bottom pane ) And you would only do that if you were putting 4 or 5 hundred pounds of rocks in it..ie a salt water tank.
> Styrofoam should ONLY and ALWAYS be used under a flat bottomed tank ( one that the bottom glass comes in contact with the suface of the stand or has the slightest chance of doing so.) for example if you have a tank that has less than 3/16 of an inch and only then I would use a piece no thicker than 1/4 inch. I have a flat bottomed tank that sits on a 1 inch piece of foam as I had 2-3 hundred pounds of rocks in it. The problem you will have with thicker foam on a tank with a recess is that the outer frame will compresse the foam to a greater extent than the glass will causing additional up pressure on the glass.


Wow, that is a bold statement. The most important support to any aquarium is the perimeter of the aquarium. The frame of any aquarium needs to be supported evenly. Picture if you will an aquarium on a metal stand. The pressure points on the glass are intermittent and create stress points, thus usually resulting in a crack or leak. With Styrofoam underneath this example, the load is spread over the area of the stand and the contact points are increased. The same applies to a flat top stand. Supporting the bottom middle of the aquarium is your least concern which is why aquariums generally have a recessed bottom. How are you increasing the upwards pressure on the glass? Sorry, after 20 years of being deep into this industry I cant wrap my head around that one. there is not an aquarium manufacturer I have ever spoken to that would agree with the above statement. I would say foam used on a flat bottom aquarium would support even further but that is as far as I would go on that one. I have witnessed custom stands without foam that did not support the tank evenly. One aquarium that comes to mind cracked across the bottom a few months after being set up after I warned them. Guess what, foam went under the replacement aquarium and no problems. We all have different experiences in this hobby but I like to think after 20+ years, I know a little about aquarium support.


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## gimlid (Apr 23, 2010)

If foam is as important as people think, why wouldnt the manufacturers simply add it at the factory. Its cheap and would potentially set them above the rest of the market.

I totally agree with Otter on Load placement. If your place is concrete then no biggy, if its wood frame I would find the load points or at least try to predict where they are and which way your joists run. A tank that large you want to straddle myultiple joists on opposed agnles not run parallel.

I've been through all this trying to place my 180 gallon.

Remember the load will be distributed along the whole length of the stand andywhere it meets the floor so you want to give as much surface contact as possible between stand and whatever you use as a leveling device. Even distribution of weight will save stress on the stand and the floor.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

In most cases, the need for foam is determined by the surface the aquarium is being placed on. Most aquarium stands are designed to give with the aquarium and aid in leveling them. This is why some stands seem almost as if they wont hold the weight. They are designed to give with the aquarium to help avoid cracks or leaks. It is when aquariums are placed on a counter top or custom stand that is built to hold a semi tractor trailer that there is no give creating stress points and potentially causing cracks or leaks. A few aquarium manufacturers do have under aquarium pads for this reason, it is in their best interests for the aquarium to be level after all. This is why many aquarium manufacturers void their warranty if the aquarium is not on their own stand. Simply because the design of the stand itself helps to level the aquarium.


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## fkshiu (Apr 22, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> In most cases, the need for foam is determined by the surface the aquarium is being placed on. Most aquarium stands are designed to give with the aquarium and aid in leveling them. This is why some stands seem almost as if they wont hold the weight. They are designed to give with the aquarium to help avoid cracks or leaks. It is when aquariums are placed on a counter top or custom stand that is built to hold a semi tractor trailer that there is no give creating stress points and potentially causing cracks or leaks. A few aquarium manufacturers do have under aquarium pads for this reason, it is in their best interests for the aquarium to be level after all. This is why many aquarium manufacturers void their warranty if the aquarium is not on their own stand. Simply because the design of the stand itself helps to level the aquarium.


That's interesting. I highly doubt the $40 particle board rebadged Perfecto stand I bought at Walmart a while back had any sort of advanced design elements. There is no magic to an aquarium stand. They are not designed to "give". Like any product in a consumer-driven economy, aquarium stands are simply engineered to do what they are meant to do (i.e. hold a static weight) for the minimum in materials and workmanship cost. They are designed to transmit the weight of the aquarium vertically from around to perimeter through to the floor using the material's compressive strength. Nothing gives, there is no flexion. This is why the particle board is placed vertically directly under the perimeter of the tank where the weight is. Think what it would be like to karate chop down on the edge of a board standing vertically rather than the middle of a horizontal board.

There is going to be a lot more flexing and give on middle of the top of a dresser where weight presses down midspan testing the material's shear strength (i.e. the normal way of karate chopping a board).

The fact is that not one major aquarium manufacturer requires any sort of foam padding underneath their framed aquariums. That says a lot in a world where you have to label coffee cups as "Caution: Hot" and every car commercial has the disclaimer "Professional driver, closed course".

Secondly, styrofoam is simply not a panacea or fix-all for all stand faults. Let's take this out of the abstract and look at several specific examples of how a stand could be lacking:

*1. Out of level - stand is nice and flat, but one side is not level with the other.*
While it makes some intuitive sense that styrofoam could help in such an instance, the fact is that one side will not "squish" the styrofoam more than the other thereby levelling the aquarium. Gravity continues to act equally on both sides of the stand - styrofoam cannot affect Newtonian physics. What you'll end up with is exactly the same situation as without the styrofoam: an unlevel aquarium. The only solutions are to fix the floor or use shims to fix the stand

*2. Twisted/warped top - stand is not true and flat with both high and low points*
The foam may or may not compress to conform with the high points (more on this later) but it most certainly will NOT somehow expand to conform with the low points. You will end up with the unsupported sections with or without the styrofoam. The solution again is the fix the stand itself.

*3. Dips - low points*
Again, the foam will not expand to conform down to the low points. You will be left with unsupported sections. Fix the stand.

*4. Individual high points*
Intuitive thinking again assumes that the foam will conform and compress at the high point leaving a smooth surface on top for the aquarium. Depending on the material used, this can be far from the truth. The polystyrene material used in insulating foam sheets that are so often recommended for aquarium bottoms actually compresses very little unless it is a point load. And the thicker the polystyrene is, then less easily is compresses. The fact is that stand imperfections very rarely involve point loads - when was the last time you saw a nail sticking out from your stand's top? Much more likely is a gradual hump or bump. The styrofoam will in all likelihood not compress or conform to such imperfections.

I once built a 6' stand using 2x6s spanning the length. I installed the 2x6s crown up so there was a slight hump perfectly in the middle of the stand. The tank rocked like a teeter-totter back and forth. I put in a foam sheet and what happened? Now both the foam and tank were teeter-tottering. The foam fixed nothing. I eventually had to fix to the standing by shaving down the crowns from a block plane.

The same thing will likely occur with a hump on any other part of the stand. The foam and tank is simply going to sit on top of the hump. You'd have far more successful in smoothing out humps with a softer material like the white styrofoam used in packing or the foam that campers sleep on. And even then the pressure point on the aquarium is probably on lessened, not eliminated. The right thing to do is the fix the stand itself.

At the end of the day, styrofoam can at best be described as a band-aid solution to only a certain type of stand imperfection. Unless your stand is true (i.e. flat), level (i.e. horizontally even) and plumb (i.e. vertically straight) to begin with, no amount of foam will fix your problems.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

fkshiu said:


> That's interesting. I highly doubt the $40 particle board rebadged Perfecto stand I bought at Walmart a while back had any sort of advanced design elements. There is no magic to an aquarium stand. They are not designed to "give". Like any product in a consumer-driven economy, aquarium stands are simply engineered to do what they are meant to do (i.e. hold a static weight) for the minimum in materials and workmanship cost. They are designed to transmit the weight of the aquarium vertically from around to perimeter through to the floor using the material's compressive strength. Nothing gives, there is no flexion. This is why the particle board is placed vertically directly under the perimeter of the tank where the weight is. Think what it would be like to karate chop down on the edge of a board standing vertically rather than the middle of a horizontal board.
> 
> There is going to be a lot more flexing and give on middle of the top of a dresser where weight presses down midspan testing the material's shear strength (i.e. the normal way of karate chopping a board).
> 
> ...


Fkshiu,
I agree, this is interesting. When an aquarium full of water is pressing down onto styrofoam it will actually self level to some degree. I have seen this countless times when removing an old aquarium from on top of styro and sure enough, it is pressed further on one end for example then the other. Gravity is a wonderful thing, and if it is a quick fix, does that not mean it does self level to a degree? Otherwise why would it be a quick fix????

Also I never stated that the foam would fix the problem entirely, simply that it is a very good precaution for someone to use to help level the stand when it is a very solidly built stand. It is fine to also criticize that aquarium stands are built the way they are for cost, yes cost always has a bearing but most aquarium stands commercially made do flex in many directions, solid home made ones don't. I can only speak from my personal experience from being in the business for 20+ years. If you don't believe in using styrofoam then don't. If you like a little more insurance against a massive disaster of any aquarium leaking give it a try.


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## summit (Aug 22, 2010)

sorry to link to another forum, please delete if its a problem, but I remember this thread being a great read regarding foam under the tank, some good information in there, and gets pretty interesting on page 9 (tragic may be a better word).

Ziggy953's 150 Build errrr....120 Build - Page 9 - Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community


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## Aquaman (Apr 21, 2010)

Rastapus said:


> Fkshiu,
> I agree, this is interesting. When an aquarium full of water is pressing down onto styrofoam it will actually self level to some degree. I have seen this countless times when removing an old aquarium from on top of styro and sure enough, it is pressed further on one end for example then the other. Gravity is a wonderful thing, and if it is a quick fix, does that not mean it does self level to a degree? Otherwise why would it be a quick fix????
> 
> Also I never stated that the foam would fix the problem entirely, simply that it is a very good precaution for someone to use to help level the stand when it is a very solidly built stand. It is fine to also criticize that aquarium stands are built the way they are for cost, yes cost always has a bearing but most aquarium stands commercially made do flex in many directions, solid home made ones don't. I can only speak from my personal experience from being in the business for 20+ years. If you don't believe in using styrofoam then don't. If you like a little more insurance against a massive disaster of any aquarium leaking give it a try.


I really don't get that ...oh the tank stand moves and flexes to level the tank.....wow I thought all tanks were like glass boxes that are true and square. so if you make a stand that is true and square and level in plane .built like a brick outhouse .why would that be bad? 
If you are putting a tank on a stand that moves as you say  it is due to it being out of plane to begin with.and or being on a unleveled surface.
Selling a tank that is warrantied only if its on one of their stands is just a ploy to 1 is to get them to buy a stand and 2 let them know in advance there will be NO warranty if they don't. 
Stands are made the way they are for a few reasons. particle board is easy to work with it is solid can be routered tooled and easily covered with mack tac ( would you like that in pine .oak or black finish sir ?.) wood is harder to work with and can not be finished with mac-tac unless the surface is prepared. .....Flexability is not one of them. If there is any I would be real concerned in an earthquake. if the stand has to move to accommodate the tank and give with it .....you need a sturdier stand-to start with.

Steel stands...the longer the span the less load one will carry evenly unless you have 6 legs or more. I have a 180 metal stand and when the tank is full the tank fits tight all across the front...but I can grab the center area and pull down on it till I see a gap. 80 % of the weight is supported by the outer rails .what good would foam do ? 
I can see putting a roll of say canopy tape on the bottom of the tank frame to take up that little unevenness but more than that??? .
also you state ...


Rastapus said:


> When an aquarium full of water is pressing down onto Styrofoam it will actually self level to some degree. I have seen this countless times when removing an old aquarium from on top of styro and sure enough, it is pressed further on one end for example then the other..:


... I would suggest that the stand was not true and plane ( nothing to do with level ) going by that line of thinking I should be able to jack up one end of my tank 1/2 an inch ( I have 1 inch styro under it ) wait for a year and it will level out due to gravity  stop it all ready 
Bill


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## budahrox (Apr 21, 2010)

Self leveling styrofoam????
Flexible Stands????? (This one cracks me up the most) or no warranty???
No sales gimmicks here!! 
Watched my friends flexible, cheap ass particle board LFS stand flex right over sideways tank & all. I guess he should have had that styrofoam under the tank. 
I think that fkshius statement pretty much sums things up.
It's pretty hard to argue with physics.
The latter, seems like LFS poppycock to me.
Home made solid stands may not always look as pretty but they sure help you sleep better at night. 
To the OP, IMHO & others have said, fix & level the stand.
Cheers!!


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## CALC (May 13, 2010)

Hi guys, Thank you very much for all the help
i worked on the stand instead of put a wood board underneath.....
now everything is level!! trying to load some pics..somehow it wont let me,btw the indo dats are happy as a clam!!!


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## gimlid (Apr 23, 2010)

What kind of work did you actually do to the stand?


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