# Calling LED experts for planted tanks.



## Tommy72a

I have questions in regards to today's LED lights for planted aquariums. I'm hoping some experts on this subject can shed some lights? ( shed some lights... Haha get it?)

So I've been doing some research on LED lights and I just can't get my head around the whole thing. I have a standard 75 gallon tank, running 4 x 54w T5 tubes and so far I'm happy with the result. Someone coming from low tech tank set up, difference is unbelievable. Plants grow healthy, lush, fast and reasonable amount of algae growth. Don't get me wrong, I've had my share of algae battle ranging from hair algae and BBA but I managed to get them cleaned up. Let's say it was good learning experience. Not to mention the equipment cost is relatively reasonable and the hydro cost is not awesome but do-able.
However I've come across handful of well planted tanks utilizing LED lights and I think they look fantastic. Light is crisp and love the way it looks on the surface. Not to mention other benefits; low operating cost, emitting less heat, low profile and they say it lasts 10 -15 times longer than bulbs. These things are very appealing to me.

I started researching on this subject on line but it's hard to get a straight answer. Especially on user forums where opinions are very subjective and you have to wade through lot of personal opinion without facts and figures. (some are pile of BS) Every manufacture and retail websites claim that their product is the answer to all problems. Oh yes and I understand that PAR measurement is the standard unit to properly gauge light intensity but I can't figure out how much I need need for my tank. 

It's seems that we are still in the early stages of the LED revolution. I have concluded that equipment cost is still too high and it has ways to go before they are accepted by the high tech planted tank community. Am I wrong? I've had people recommend products ranging from Marine Land LEDs ($170 on line from US) to $1000 set up. If you are an expert of this subject I would like to hear from you and answer these questions for me;

1) to get an equivalent light intensity for my tank, what kid of LED set up I need?
Currently I use 4x54w 48 inch bulbs. 2x6000k and 2x650nm rosette.
75 gallon standard with substrate 1 inch in the front, 4 inch in the back.
I grow variety of plants. Tall, medium and short.
If you can post a link to specific equipment... That will great.

2) if you are utilizing LED lights on your high tech tank, what type of set up are you using? And how much did it cost and where did you buy it? And what are your thoughts, both good and bad.

3) did you build your LED lights yourself? Care to share your building process? Happy witthe end result? Why aren't more main stream manufactures are accepting this technology and mass producing LED lights for planted aquariums?

Thank you in advance,
Tommy


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## The Fish Man

I am exactly in the same boat as you Tommy and it sounds like we have done about the same amount of research. I never even made it to T5's - still running CFL's on my 72G - 2X55W plus 1X96W. My 55W fixture is actually 4x55W but one of the ballasts is kaput. The fixture itself is on its last legs with the plastic end caps being broken and falling apart along with the plexi water shield over the strip. I will have to replace the bulbs in December - I usually get them during King Ed's Boxing week sale. So instead of dumping $200ish dollars in bulbs, I am looking at replacing the fixture with LED.

My plan is to get 2 of GroBeam 1500 Ultima LED Light Tiles. GroBeam 1500 Ultima LED Light Tile (Natural Daylight) If that isn't enough for good plant growth, then I will go to 3 of them. $225ish each is a bit steep, but factor in not changing CFL bulbs every year, then it starts to pay off in the long run. Plus the benefit of lower heat output and energy consumption. The reason I chose these is that the CREE XB-D Natural Daylight PowerLED's in them are great quality and are perfect at 6500K. These lights also have a wide variety of mounting options as well.

So I have no first hand experience to share, but this is the best light for planted applications for the money from what I have gathered.

I found this website to be extremely valuable in furthering my understanding of lighting: Aquarium Lighting & Light Information | Reef & Planted | PAR PUR This website suggest 2 of the 1500 GroBeams for a 60G and 3 for a 100G. That is why I am waffling between 2 or 3 tiles for my bowfront. I'm usually the more is better type person so will probably end at 3 with the middle one running a 4-6 hour schedule.


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## Tommy72a

Hey Fish Man,
Funny I was looking at the same thing. I recently visited a BC Aquaria member and I saw him using a set of GroBeam 600 Ultima LED Light Strip (Natural Daylight). He had two of them in his tank. I'm not sure the size of his tank but I'm guessing 30 to 40 gallons? May 24x20x20? If I do take the plunge, I will likely go with that 1500 Ultima but...the question is 2 or 3 units? Or maybe keep 1 or 2 T5 bulbs and 2 x 1500 Ultimas, call it a hybrid system. In your bow front, do you have centre brace? By the way any thoughts on how you are going to set it up? I know they have some after market brackets and hangers. When are you making your decision?


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## The Fish Man

I like your idea of running a couple of T5's along with the 1500's. The 1500's say the are good for down to 25 inches, so check the height to you lowest plant to where the light fixture should sit. If you go the hybrid route, then 2 of the 1500's should suffice. It's all speculation until somebody that has these particular lights chimes in though. However, from what I have read, these 1500's are the latest tech to be designed specifically for plant growth. 

I do have the center brace on my tank. If I put in a third light in the middle, it will be partially blocked but I'm not too concerned about it in the long run. I'm more concerned about getting enough light on the ends of the tank and I don't mind more in the center as this is the area I usually put higher light demanding plants (red types).

I have a plastic canopy on my tank so the brackets they have probably won't work for me if I intend to keep the canopy. I haven't thought far enough ahead to decide what to do so my choices will be keep the canopy and come up with a DIY bracket that fits under it (wood and threaded metal rods), or ditch the canopy and get one of their rail mounted systems that is frame-mounted or hangs from the ceiling . The plus of the rail mounted system will be that it can provide some flexibility on adjustments. Also a DIY bracket could cause issues with removal for cleaning etc unless I design something that gives me room for that. 

I'll probably pull the trigger on it sometime between now and January. Still lots of time to change my seventeen times. lol


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## aQ.LED

i forgot how much watts coming out from the unit but I remember it is rather small, a bit expensive for that kind of unit tho.
I think in many cases, people actually would find DIY regular light sockets with just PAR38/PAR30 bulb working just fine


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## rwong2k10

I've had the grow beam tiles and I sold them. I'm also trying to sell these aquaray 600s also.

My personal experiece is I get best results from a mix of t5ho and leds but for my 120 gallon aquarium I am going with all t5ho simply at 24" deep for a high light setup ( what Ive always used personally) those 1 watt cree leds are not powerful enough to penetrate to the substrate. The best bet is to use a homr made led fixture for 3 or 10 watt leds

there's a few articles on planted aquariums using led only vs t5ho only vs a mix


also from my experience some of my plants turned very leggy and didn't grow too well in my led only set up

ill try to dig up some links tomorrow



Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## ckl

I don't think I would call myself an LED expert but I have researched the subject and I run LED's on my 20G high. The reason I chose LED is similar to your interest in them. Namely, low power usage and less heat and most importantly, long life and NO color shifting. Previously, I was using spiral CFL's mainly due to cost - but I didn't like them because they generated too much heat for my liking.

Anyway, the biggest advantage with LED is spectrum output. Rather than doing a bad job of explaining it to you, I will refer you a real expert on the subject here: (post #2 shows you the spectrum ideal for plants).
LED Lighting Compendium

As you can see plants do best when the spectrum output is between 400-550nm (blue) and 650-700nm (red). Between 550-650nm (green) is where plants use the least - absorbs the least. Algae, as far as I know, use all spectrum of light. So if you mainly get a light between 550-650nm, your plants will not use much of it, but algae will use all of it. So when I got CFL at around 6000K temp (neutral white), eventually it will shift towards yellow over time (5000K) which the plants use less of.

So now you know what spectrum LED you need, now to find an LED that outputs that spectrum. For me, I'm a DIY type of guy so I went to rapidled.com as they have solderless LED's that are dimmable. Dimmable is important because it allows you to adjust the brightness as I believe WPG rule doesn't really apply to LED fixtures. PAR readings are the rule for LED's but that requires you to have a PAR meter. So at that website, I chose the solderless dimmable LED kit. Solderless is basically plug and play. The only hard part is wiring up the dimmer and power supply. When I say hard, I mean you have to follow instructions as opposed to looking at pictures like most guys do LOL. If you don't want to hassle with the DIY part, they also sell prebuilt fixtures although it appears to be geared towards bigger tanks. As for the LED's themselves, they are CREE which I hear is a good brand. They also have a spectral chart for each type of color (royal blue, neutral white, cool white, red, etc) so you can choose which spectrum you wish to target. They are rated at about 5W max. So if you subscribe to the WPG rule, you can calculate how many LED's you require.

So for my 20G, I have 9 LED's. A mixture of 5 cool whites, 2 royal blues, and 2 neutral whites. This gives me tank that looks crystal blue... If you are going more towards sunlight or white, just replace the royal blues with more neutral white or cool white. Currently, I run them at 90% power which is plenty bright for my tank. The other thing is that I bought lenses for these LED's but I decided not to use them. The reason is that the distance from the LED's to the water is about 2" (separated by a clear plastic cover) so I want max light spread vs a focused one. If you decide to hang your lights higher, then lenses should be used.

Lastly, the LED's generate heat so you will notice that most LED fixtures come with an aluminum heatsink, however, the heat generated is very minimal compared to the CFL's. My LED's are mounted on a heatsink within an enclosed canopy with slots at the top. If I put my hand over the slot I can feel a little warmth coming from them.

There are a few places that sell LED's now. I noticed that King Ed sells prebuilt led fixtures that have brackets to mount on top of your tank (as opposed to hanging it) - but I didn't really look at the LED's themselves (what spectrum output they have). Some places online are buildmyled.com and aQ.LED both of which I have no experience with.

BTW, I have no affiliation with any of the websites or stores mentioned in this post.


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## randylahey

I have been using a beamswork 48" 1w reefbright from canadian aquatics on my 90gal high tech for the last month. My plants are loving it. It has 54 white and 18 actinic, which I believe is 460nm, for a total of 72 w.The whites are supposed to be 10000k but, I don't believe there quite that high. Since they are led beads hand soldered to the circuit board , it would be easy for me to swap them out to my preference. I have found 6500k and red led beads on ebay. As my winter project, I will be reconfiguring it to my liking. I'll post a thread when I start.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Tommy72a

Rwong2k10
Thanks for your comments. I'm surprised hear about your 'leggy comment'. Your tank looks so healthy!

Ckl, thanks for forwarding me the link. Good reading, I will read more and see if I can digest better. By the way, I would love to see a picture of your tank. Please post for all us to see :bigsmile: and the light unit too!
By the way, I went to rapid led.com and saw you were talking about. So let me get this straight, the cool white Cree LED emits 5000k - 8300k and you used the adjustable driver to target the ideal K value? For example 6500k? 


RandyLahey (by the way I missed that show) please keep us posted on your project! I would love to see your progress.


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## rwong2k10

aQ.LED said:


> i forgot how much watts coming out from the unit but I remember it is rather small, a bit expensive for that kind of unit tho.
> I think in many cases, people actually would find DIY regular light sockets with just PAR38/PAR30 bulb working just fine


yeha $260 for the aquaray growbeam tile isn't worth it, it's about 24 watts, might as well get a par38 bulb for $50 and a hanging fixture for more than 24 watts


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## ckl

Tommy72a said:


> Ckl, thanks for forwarding me the link. Good reading, I will read more and see if I can digest better. By the way, I would love to see a picture of your tank. Please post for all us to see :bigsmile: and the light unit too!
> By the way, I went to rapid led.com and saw you were talking about. So let me get this straight, the cool white Cree LED emits 5000k - 8300k and you used the adjustable driver to target the ideal K value? For example 6500k?


I will post some pictures of my tank and setup sometime this week.

About your question about color temp. The answer would be no. I have not noticed when dimmed lowest to highest the color temp changing. It just changes the brightness. The CREE led's come in different "bins". Each bin is specific to a particular color temp. So for example, the cool white that rapidled sells is XPGWHT-L1-0000-00H51 (says so right on the page), so if you click on the link that says "CREE XP-G LED Binning and Labeling Guide", find the section that says "Standard Order Codes and Bins", you will notice that the last 2 digits of the part number correspond to the kit. So "51" is 6200K. If you look down the list you will notice different kits which have different color temps. So the neutral white that rapid led sells has a kit of E4 which has a color temp of 4500K. If your pdf reader has a search function, you can also search by the complete part number.

Hope that helps.


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## rwong2k10

jonney boy builds his own led cree fixtures and his tanks are pretty successful

his next project is using 10 watt leds but I don't think he's gotten around to it yet



Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


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## kacairns

randylahey said:


> I have been using a beamswork 48" 1w reefbright from canadian aquatics on my 90gal high tech for the last month. My plants are loving it. It has 54 white and 18 actinic, which I believe is 460nm, for a total of 72 w.The whites are supposed to be 10000k but, I don't believe there quite that high. Since they are led beads hand soldered to the circuit board , it would be easy for me to swap them out to my preference. I have found 6500k and red led beads on ebay. As my winter project, I will be reconfiguring it to my liking. I'll post a thread when I start.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Based on reading I had done when I was looking into LED is that 10000k whites were not optimal in a fresh water planted setup as the plants process the 6500k range the best. In fact there were suggestions that using that high for a fresh water planted tank may actually lead to problems with algae and so on. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark any of those pages I had read to be able to post here though... In fact beamswork makes a planted version of their LED light, its just not carried by Charles.


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## Youmakemesohappy

- It's subjective but I'd say approx. 100W of good quality LEDs (CREE or Bridgelux) would be more than enough to switch from 200W of T5HO.

- You will want a fixture with a dimmer in case the light is too strong (100W full power might be too strong)

- The more colors the better: 
A 1/1/1 mix of warm/neutral/cool white is great for planted tanks (that's what I use) its a bit on the warmer side.
Anything with 2 spectrum of white is better than just one, 3 is even better, but it's not an absolute necessity (1 spectrum will still grow your plants)
You can also add some red and blue. LEDs have very narrow spectrum so its best to add multiple spectrum as opposed to just one.

- I did a few simple DIY builds on small setups (cf. one here) and I can definitely try to give you a hand picking DIY stuff.
I also spend way too much time on LED fixtures manufacturers and can advise some fixtures which could fit your setup.
I feel bad writing them here right away as it might be perceived as advertising for some brands 

- Controllers are cool but NOT necessary, same with moon lights (for planted tanks)
They are still fun features, and one of the cool things with LEDs is you can have more control over your light.
But it will be more $$$...

- If you have a specific budget, I can suggest some fixtures or DIY kits that can fit your requirements.

Good luck in your research and feel free to pm if you'd like some suggestions!

Nicolas


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## Tommy72a

CKL
Thanks for that info... I spent few hours last night looking through their web site but I will have a look again. That make sense as I didn't think dimmer would have made that kind of adjustments. That site is pretty sick.

Youmakemesohappy
Thanks for the offer, I will be sure to reach out when I pull the trigger. Right now..I'm trying to learn much as possible about the DIY LEDs. I believe so called LED revolution is coming but it's not here yet in terms of mass production in finished goods (especially for planted tanks). By the way.. Speaking of controllers, I've accidentally stumbled across Neptune Apex controller web site. I'm gadget freak so it was like surfing porn. I knew these things existed and lot of people use them but but but... like I need this like I need a hole in my head. Then again... Maybe my family can hold off a trip to Disneyland one more year. Arrg!

Question/discussion to all:
Let's take the water penetration and color out of the equation for a minute here. Let's take my four T5 bulb's lumen value suggested by the manufacture and add it up. Then divide that by lumen value produced by single XPGWHT-L1-0000-00H51 from rapidled. (Say reference 260 lumen at 700mA or we can even use 348 lumen at 1.0A suggested by cree's data sheet) Would this give me an equivalent light strength over the same space? In my case 48 inch by 18 inch Or am I not getting this yet?


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## Youmakemesohappy

If you are looking for a DIY LED controller, this one is great and much more affordable than the Apex:
Typhon LED Controller

You can also get an enclosure for it:
Badfish Reef Systems - Typhon LED Controller Box


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## Foxtail

There was a member that did a DIY LED build using gu-10 bulbs... I think it was neven I'll see if I can find it.

Found it http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33989

He built his for reef but I don't think the application matters much considering he could order the bulbs with any combination of temp.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## AdobeOtoCat

I only had success with t5hos. This only applies to carpet plants. Much thicker. Grows faster. 

Tried kessil amazon sun and illumilux dolce Rosso. Dense matrix led and Cree. 

Do yourself a favour and don't do LEDs for planted tanks.

But LEDs for saltwater is the way to go.

Good luck.


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## ckl

Tommy72a said:


> By the way, I would love to see a picture of your tank. Please post for all us to see :bigsmile: and the light unit too!


I posted some pics here:
http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/member-photo-video-gallery-17/20g-freshwater-planted-community-tank-setup-61777/


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## Tommy72a

AdobeOtoCat said:


> I only had success with t5hos. This only applies to carpet plants. Much thicker. Grows faster.
> 
> Tried kessil amazon sun and illumilux dolce Rosso. Dense matrix led and Cree.
> 
> Do yourself a favour and don't do LEDs for planted tanks.
> 
> But LEDs for saltwater is the way to go.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks for the feedback... I had a chance to look at your DIY LED project and it very clean and attractive. It's sad to hear that when you went 100% LED, plants started to melt. I've read a similar posts all of the internet. I wonder if it was underpowered? ( you did comment that you felt it was underpowered) Or something was lacking? Perhaps plants needed some time to adjust to the new light? By the way I love your aqua scraping skills.


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## Tommy72a

ckl said:


> I posted some pics here:
> http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/member-photo-video-gallery-17/20g-freshwater-planted-community-tank-setup-61777/


Thank you...
Very nice DIY install. Clean! I can't remember if you mentioned if those are Cree 5w LEDs? Your plants still showing strong growth? Do you see signs of plants thriving under those lights? Would you care to comment on t5 growth vs led growth(if you have had utilized t5 before)
Sorry about all the questions but few more.. 
Do you see any so called disco effect from your blue and red mixed in? Do you have optics on those LEDs? If so what angle?
Thanks kindly....


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## ckl

Tommy72a said:


> Thank you...
> Very nice DIY install. Clean! I can't remember if you mentioned if those are Cree 5w LEDs? Your plants still showing strong growth? Do you see signs of plants thriving under those lights? Would you care to comment on t5 growth vs led growth(if you have had utilized t5 before)
> Sorry about all the questions but few more..
> Do you see any so called disco effect from your blue and red mixed in? Do you have optics on those LEDs? If so what angle?
> Thanks kindly....


Thanks!

Yes, these are the 5W Cree LED's. My plants are still growing strong, however, since I'm still new to this, I've experienced a nutrient deficiency which caused some stunted growth. I've since corrected it by following seachems dosing guidelines and using their products (this includes excel, flourish comp, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium). I should have done this from the start. I have some minor algae on the back glass and on some leaves as a result of this deficiency. the sessiflora is back to growing approx. 1/2"-1" per day.

The only fluorescent lights I've used are the spiral CFL ones. Mine were 6000K I believe. They work fine, but they get very hot. I can't tell you the difference between CFL vs. LED because I've done things differently this time. For example, when I had CFL, I didn't really dose any nutrients other than the general purpose ferts once a week. I had no clue about micro and macro nutrients and even less about nutrient deficiencies. Also my substrate is different - inert gravel vs. eco complete. So it's really hard to compare because nothing is on equal ground.

In the LED kit that I bought, it came with optics. I opted for the 80 degree (widest spread), but I decided not to use them after trying them out. The reason is that the lights are about 2" above the water. With the lenses installed, you can see each individual LED beam coming from the top and spreading out at the bottom like a cone shape. The lights only started to blend together at about a third of the way down the tank... that's not what I wanted.

I'm not sure what you mean by disco effect. The only effect I see is the shimmering effect of the surface agitation by the filter. BTW, I don't have any red LED's... only Cool white, neutral white, and royal blue.


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## Tommy72a

CKL: I'm glad you figured out the fert schedule. Keep up the good work and keep me posted please. BTW, I been spending lot of time at RapidLED wedsite..

So I been doing more research and I think I’ve finally got it through my think skull that I can’t measure PAR level on given aquarium tank size. It’s not like fertilizer where you mix them into water to achieve certain PPM or the old outdated way of measuring, watts-per-gallon. It was hard to get out of that mind set and it took me some time but I got it now. Also, I’m not going to get a hold of a PAR meter anytime soon so I better get on without it.
Okay so… To give you an update on my thought process, here is what I’m thinking:
1.	I really like the Grobeam 1500. I’ve recently had a chance to look at them and I really like them! The plants seems to be doing well too! However it was being utilized on the smaller, shallower tank. I’ve read somewhere that they recommend 3-4 of these units to for heavily planted 75 gallon. That’s $1000 for four units! and it’s not going to happen with my budget any time soon. If you break down price wise, 4 units = 36 Cree 5w white LEDs and it works out to $27.77 per LED. Some people say 4 of these units maybe an overkill but I dot think so.
2.	I want to reach around 50-60 PAR level at the bottom of the tank. With Cree 5W LED’s I believe I can do that easily down on my 21 inch deep tank. Especially when your lights are over lapping, I should be able to get 60-80 PAR easily. I don’t need it but it’s possible. If I decide to embark on this DIY LED project, I just need to figure out how many I need to get a good coverage on 48 inch by 18 inch bottom. Not a whole lot of data from Cree in terms of performance data under water but there are some data from other manufactures. 
3.	I’ve been reading endless forum posts about LED’s on planted aquariums. I‘ve seen lots of failures and I think this is mostly due to lack of power. Also some the posts lead me to believe using white (say around 6500k) LED lights alone will not yield a favourable result in the long run. Most of the white LEDs will emit some useful red and blue lights(450mn & 640mn) but I don’t think it’s enough. I believe LED lights for heavily planted tank must have additional Red and Blue LED’s to fully supplement plant needs. Question is… how many, what ratio? At what strength? Only if I can take a guess and somehow have an ability to tweak the strength of individual light color later when it’s all built and hanging above my tank. Only if there is a way to do this…..
4.	Oh Wait! We have the technology to do this! Let’s say I pick 36 Cree 5w WhiteCool LEDS, run it on 3 dimmable drivers; one driver in the front, one on mid row and one in the back row… Then have 6-8 RED and 6-8 BLUE, hook them up on dimmable drivers too… Okay 5 drivers… little bit excessive but this way I can really dial in the color ratio. Also in theory, I can turn up the lights in the front for the high demanding carpet plants and turn it down in the back for taller plants. If 36x5w are too much power, I can either take them out for other tank projects or simply turn it down using the dimmer. Rough estimate on this DIY LED project, looking around $550 (without the heat sink $430). By the way, how awesome would it be to simulate a spectacular sunset/sunrise using this set up with Apex dimmer controller? (for those of not familer Apex controllers, it’s a dimmer/timer controller) Light red sky for 30 mins, then intense red for 5 mins mins before the sunset, sunsets then followed by blue twilight for 15 mins then moon light. All these could be done on gradual slow change! Not that this will benefit my plants or fish but I think I would sit in front of my tank to watch the sunset whenever I can. Strictly for my entertainment and stress relieve.
5.	So far this looks good right? I even bought a soldering iron yesterday (I needed for another project too). I watched handful of RapidLED install video from university of Youtube, priced out the project and made some simple install plans. However, I just can’t 100% commit to this because;
A>	What if I’m disappointed with the performance? I have yet to see a large tank housing thick lush plant growth and screaming out it was all done on LED lights! (I have some seen some LED & T5 combinations) If this doesn’t perform to my expectations, I would be mad at myself for spending all these efforts, time and money when I had a set of perfectly good T5 bulbs.
B>	What if this project is above my head? I’m 99% sure I can do it but soldering is new to me. 
C>	What if I am rushing into this too fast? Let me tell you what I’m talking about. I bought my first flat screen TV back 10 yrs ago. It was a Plasma 42 inch and I paid $2500+tax. I even remember someone telling me “I highly doubt plasma TV will come down in price significantly any time soon”. Bul-Sh-it. Things are progressing so fast in the LED world.. maybe worth waiting an another year? Ack! I don’t know…

Anyways, thanks for reading my update. I think it helps me when I post my thoughts in the forum. It forces me to slow down and approach things more carefully. I would appreciate your feedbacks.
Regards,
Tommy72a


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## trout

Great post going here for those interested in LEDs. DIY is fun and imo the way to go, no experience here with a prebuilt unit however....there's some nice ones out there.

Tommy, if you end up doing DIY, definitely run a controller of some sort, you won't regret and your fish will appreciate it. When I had the dicrossus, they only spawned @ sunset. They also noticeable prefer the dimming off and on, much more natural for them. 

As far as running reds and blues, personally I wouldn't bother if you have a good mix of whites. Although I stopped following build threads ages ago about that topic, never really saw any concrete evidence they made a huge difference. Plants will grow given enough light providing the other essentials are in check for the amount of light being used. Just my 2 cents.


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## Tommy72a

trout said:


> Great post going here for those interested in LEDs. DIY is fun and imo the way to go, no experience here with a prebuilt unit however....there's some nice ones out there.
> 
> Tommy, if you end up doing DIY, definitely run a controller of some sort, you won't regret and your fish will appreciate it. When I had the dicrossus, they only spawned @ sunset. They also noticeable prefer the dimming off and on, much more natural for them.
> 
> As far as running reds and blues, personally I wouldn't bother if you have a good mix of whites. Although I stopped following build threads ages ago about that topic, never really saw any concrete evidence they made a huge difference. Plants will grow given enough light providing the other essentials are in check for the amount of light being used. Just my 2 cents.


Hey trout,
I was checking out your 13g led tank. It looks fantastic! I see the last posting was I've a year ago. Is it still running and is it still looking good? Care to share your LED build detail with us?


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## ckl

Tommy72a said:


> 2. I want to reach around 50-60 PAR level at the bottom of the tank.


You may be able to find somebody in this forum with a PAR meter that they are willing to lend you.



Tommy72a said:


> A> What if I'm disappointed with the performance? I have yet to see a large tank housing thick lush plant growth and screaming out it was all done on LED lights! (I have some seen some LED & T5 combinations) If this doesn't perform to my expectations, I would be mad at myself for spending all these efforts, time and money when I had a set of perfectly good T5 bulbs.
> B> What if this project is above my head? I'm 99% sure I can do it but soldering is new to me.
> C> What if I am rushing into this too fast? Let me tell you what I'm talking about. I bought my first flat screen TV back 10 yrs ago. It was a Plasma 42 inch and I paid $2500+tax. I even remember someone telling me "I highly doubt plasma TV will come down in price significantly any time soon". Bul-Sh-it. Things are progressing so fast in the LED world.. maybe worth waiting an another year? Ack! I don't know&#8230;


Lighting is only one factor in having a thick lush plant growth. You could have the perfect lighting but screw up on water parameters and your plants will not thrive. As long as you target the spectrum that plants need, then you should be okay. There is an article released by NASA (website down ATM due to furlough) that describes their research in LED's for plant growth. They grew stuff entirely with red LED's and then did the same with just blue LED's and noted the differences. The point to take away from this is that it is possible - although when you look at the pictures, it looks weird because we're not used to seeing stuff grow in just red or blue light. Comparing performance of LED's vs. fluorescent lighting is like comparing LED TV's vs. plasma TV's, you will never get a definitive answer on which is better because there are too many variables that can affect performance. You have to remember that there is a point of deminishing return for all types of technology. Home theatre enthusiasts, audiophiles, and even pro athletes spend thousands of dollars on gear just to get an incremental increase in performance... For normal people like me, spending $14000 on a 50" 4K OLED TV is overkill when I could easily be happy with a $1000 50" LED TV. From what I've learned on the Internet, the key to a good planted aquarium (and probably most things in life) is balance. A good balance of lighting, nutrients, etc. etc. Imagine having that $14000 TV in your room and you're using a single small computer speaker for sound and cardboard boxes for seating... then you wonder why nobody comes over for hockey playoffs. Instead, you could have bought a $4000 TV and balanced everything out by getting decent surround sound and comfy seating and you would probably have a crowd forming at your door for playoffs. LOL.

If you have the patience and the time, a DIY project like this where the most difficult part is soldering two wires together shouldn't be over your head. It will take time and a good head for sorting out wires. For myself, this is probably only the second time I've used a soldering iron... and the one I have isn't even considered a "real" soldering iron. The key to soldering two wires together is to "tin" the tips of the wires first. This is basically coating the tip of the wire with solder first, then take both wires and melt the "tinned" tips together to fuse both wires.

If you play the waiting game, then, what can I say, you will be playing the waiting game. There is no problem with that except that you will be waiting instead of doing. LOL.

Anyway, this post turned out to be some sort of rant. So I apologize for that.


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## Tommy72a

ckl said:


> Anyway, this post turned out to be some sort of rant. So I apologize for that.


no no.. it's not a rant at all. You are completely right about the 'balance' and the waiting game... At the end of the day, I rather be 'doing' it than waiting.

Oh by the way, I just replaced my T5s 2 nights ago. I knew it was due (its been 9 months) as plants stopped growing and red plants started to melt. Man.. what a diffrence... plants started to pearl within 10 mins! By the time lights went off, it was bubbling so much it looked like it was filled with carbonated water. It's true what they say, the plants can utilize the fert and lights immediatly.


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## Reckon

What colors were you running and what did you replace the bulbs with if there was any change?


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## Tommy72a

Reckon said:


> What colors were you running and what did you replace the bulbs with if there was any change?


Oh.. I just put fresh bulbs in there, sorry if I didn't make that clear. Same brand as before. There were two powerchrome midday and two powerchrome aquaflora. I saw a slow decline in performance around 5-6 months old. Then around 7th to 8th month, barely any pearling ( that's how I gauge the growth) and last 30 days or so, started to see some leaves falling and melting, especially around the bottom.


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## trout

Tommy72a said:


> Hey trout,
> I was checking out your 13g led tank. It looks fantastic! I see the last posting was I've a year ago. Is it still running and is it still looking good? Care to share your LED build detail with us?


I was just testing it on the 13g. It's been lighting my 75p tank for over a year and a half now. Still looks great, no issues at all. Maybe lacking a bit of wider range spectrum (if that makes sense haha) but it grows plants without issue. I will try to dig up some old pics and details. I think I may have posted the build over at planted tank. Will try for the link.

Basically just 12 Cree XML 3w, 2 to 1 cool to neutral whites, wired direct to a dim4 controller, powered by a single power supply, no driver. Chunk of aluminum, and two fans also wired to the dim4. Basic yet very effective, but doesn't run the XMLs anywhere close to what they can handle.

EDIT: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182365&highlight=

Great thread for info

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164979&highlight=

Build thread


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## Tommy72a

thanks Trout, 

I have read those threads before and I've read them again and again.

Here is an update:
I've finally made a decision to take the plunge and go with a LED DIY project.
This is what I've decided so far:
-I've selected CREE XP-G R5 5W Cool White LED for my build. I'm looking at 36 units to cover by 75 gallon tank (48 wide x 18 deep x 21 high). They will be driven by 3 dimmable drivers so that I can adjust by area (for example, front, mid and back) I have a feeling, 36 units will be on the excessive side but I rather have too much than too little. Afterall, they will be driven by dimmeable drivers.
-There will be small amount of red and blue LEDs for visual benefits. Also I'm hoping these colours will help the plants too. I'm looking at CREE XT-E Royal Blue LED @ 450-465 mn and Philips Rebel ES 660nm Deep Red LED @650-670 nm. I figure out the qty later and they will driven on the dimmable drivers as well.
notes on red LEDs:A lot people are advising against red LED's. With that said, I'm still going to give it a try. A nice part about this DYI project is that if I dont like it, I can always remove them later. For this reason, my build will designed with 'future adjustments' in mind.

Heat Sinks: Rapid LED has 6x20 heat sinks.. I will use two of them.

Optics: I think they will be combination of 60 and 80. to be sorted out later.

I have to sort out few more details but I think I'm pretty close. 
Please feel free to comment.


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## ckl

Tommy72a said:


> thanks Trout,
> 
> I have read those threads before and I've read them again and again.
> 
> Here is an update:
> I've finally made a decision to take the plunge and go with a LED DIY project.
> This is what I've decided so far:
> -I've selected CREE XP-G R5 5W Cool White LED for my build. I'm looking at 36 units to cover by 75 gallon tank (48 wide x 18 deep x 21 high). They will be driven by 3 dimmable drivers so that I can adjust by area (for example, front, mid and back) I have a feeling, 36 units will be on the excessive side but I rather have too much than too little. Afterall, they will be driven by dimmeable drivers.
> -There will be small amount of red and blue LEDs for visual benefits. Also I'm hoping these colours will help the plants too. I'm looking at CREE XT-E Royal Blue LED @ 450-465 mn and Philips Rebel ES 660nm Deep Red LED @650-670 nm. I figure out the qty later and they will driven on the dimmable drivers as well.
> notes on red LEDs:A lot people are advising against red LED's. With that said, I'm still going to give it a try. A nice part about this DYI project is that if I dont like it, I can always remove them later. For this reason, my build will designed with 'future adjustments' in mind.
> 
> Heat Sinks: Rapid LED has 6x20 heat sinks.. I will use two of them.
> 
> Optics: I think they will be combination of 60 and 80. to be sorted out later.
> 
> I have to sort out few more details but I think I'm pretty close.
> Please feel free to comment.


Excellent! It will be a fun DIY project. Also, if you are thinking about replacing LED's, get the "drilled and tapped" heatsink as opposed to the other one where you have to glue the LED's on. The pros of the "drilled and tapped" is that the LED's are easy to change (just unscrew it), the cons is that there is no flexibility in the placement of the LED's (placement is evenly spaced across the heatsink).


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## Tommy72a

CKL,
I'm on the same page. I thought about buying non tapped heat sink to save few bucks but I don't own a drill press. Drilling 80 holes with a hand drill will be pretty tough not to mention I probably do a horrible job. Also I emailed the supplier and he told he that screw and nylon washer will be included with tapped heat sink. I will keep you posted!


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## Tommy72a

Ok... Update.. 
I've got my package from RapidLED this weekend. I can't start until next week but perhaps I will start an another thread on my build and track growth performance. Maybe in tank journal section.... Or maybe I will keep it in the planted tank. Stay tuned!


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