# Crazy algae problems...really makes me want to shut down my freshwater...



## AdobeOtoCat

Hey everyone. Its been a while since I first set up my 20 gal long. With the recent reduction of my bioload, ive noticed an outbreak of all types of algae.
My parameters for the tanks are as follows.
Lighting: 7 hours. T5ho 24" odysea. 24w x 2.
Ph: 6.5
Gh/kh: normal. Soft.
Co2: 25ppm.
Nitrate:1
Nitrite:0
Phosphate: 0

I have staghorn algae. Bba. Some brown fuzz algae. Also, cyano.
I have tried to vacuum my soil. Installing uv and adjusting my dry fert doses. Running co2 24/7 .Nothing seems to work. I only have 7 cardinal tetras inside. Really confused...
I cant seem to find the root cause. 
































I do water changes once a week around 50%. 8 gallons. Not 10 due to soil etc.
Thanks gurus. 
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## Reckon

Algae right now is outcompeting your plants. I think your plants need more nutrients to grow. Dose your tank? That will allow the plants to take up nutrients, co2, etc and compete with algae. Plants will eventually beat out algae if given the right conditions. I would try dosing so you see around 10ppm of nitrates, 1ppm of phosphates.

Also, try increasing your co2 output to 40 ppm, BUT only when you've dosed your tank. Dose for a week first, see how your plants do. If they start to pick up growth then very slowly increase co2.

Or, you can leave co2 dosing and try dosing with excel as this will help kill algae. However, excel does kill certain plants. Not any that I see in your tank though, I think.


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## grizadams_7mm

You could also dose with Metricide, I had to do this in a couple of my tanks. Just a heads up though it does kill CRS it didn't seem to bother my Cherries/ Mosquito Rasboras.


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## Tarobot

this is probably because of your t5ho, for a 20gal long it means your tank heigh is low and your tank is getting a lot of light that your plants cannot use because they dont have enough co2 to use the light with.

adding co2 usually solves the issue, but not too much all at one time that your fish gets stressed.


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## AdobeOtoCat

Im going to try to increase the dry dose and upping the co2. I had limited problem with algae when i had the vertex illlumilux over it. The t5 are also running at where my canopy is, so its atleast a good 8 inches off the waterline. Thank you for all the suggestions.
Also, if i added more plants. will it help?
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## 2wheelsx2

The cyano is because your nitrate is bottomed out. Are you dosing EI? If so, your nitrate shouldn't be 1? (Is that a typo? I don't know of any kit that measurements in single digits)

How often and how much water are you changing per week?


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## Reckon

2wheelsx2 said:


> The cyano is because your nitrate is bottomed out.


+1

Manually take out as much algae as you can, you'll see the results you are looking for quicker.
Also, not sure how long you've left your filter for, you probably know this already but as a reminder you should clean out the bigger chunks that are stuck in it every few months. Do this with tank water so you keep your bacteria.


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## trout

agree with all suggestions above.....and would only add the suggestion of more water flow/circulation (powerhead etc..)

tank looks nice btw!


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## Tommy72a

I think I agree with NO3 theory. I usually aim for 20-30 ppm. Other than your algae, your plants look nice.


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## AdobeOtoCat

2wheelsx2 said:


> The cyano is because your nitrate is bottomed out. Are you dosing EI? If so, your nitrate shouldn't be 1? (Is that a typo? I don't know of any kit that measurements in single digits)
> 
> How often and how much water are you changing per week?


I change around 7.5gallon to 8. One and a half rona 5g bucket of water. It is not a typo... Ive been dosing 1/8 tsp of kno3 three times a week. Apparently this is not the right amount and is too little.



Reckon said:


> +1
> 
> Manually take out as much algae as you can, you'll see the results you are looking for quicker.
> Also, not sure how long you've left your filter for, you probably know this already but as a reminder you should clean out the bigger chunks that are stuck in it every few months. Do this with tank water so you keep your bacteria.


Yup. I took out those brown fuzz ones and vacuumed some from the substrate. I also do once a month cleaning of my canister with my tank water .


trout said:


> agree with all suggestions above.....and would only add the suggestion of more water flow/circulation (powerhead etc..)
> 
> tank looks nice btw!


I had pretty decent flow and still had the algae. The cardinals were not liking it though. And thank you !



Tommy72a said:


> I think I agree with NO3 theory. I usually aim for 20-30 ppm. Other than your algae, your plants look nice.


Ive been dosing iron to keep them happy. Thanks .

Just increased my dose to 1tsp or 3.5g of kno3 for 30ppm. Lets see how this goes!!!! Using the ei calc i found on tom barrs website.


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## 2wheelsx2

AdobeOtoCat said:


> I change around 7.5gallon to 8. One and a half rona 5g bucket of water. It is not a typo... Ive been dosing 1/8 tsp of kno3 three times a week. Apparently this is not the right amount and is too little.


Wow, your nutrient consumption is very high. Even when I was planting a jungle in my 20 gallon and had a 65W PC Coralife on it, I only ever dosed 1/8 tsp. Perhaps try 1/2 tsp. 1 tsp is probably too much. Just dose and then wait an hour and measure your nitrate. Have you used that kit on other tanks to ensure it's still good? The only reason I ask is that I thought a kit was good and it wasn't measuring very nitrate and I ended up losing a lot of fish and when I bought a new kit just to test the nitrate was through the roof (>50ppm).


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## Reckon

2wheelsx2 said:


> Wow, your nutrient consumption is very high. Even when I was planting a jungle in my 20 gallon and had a 65W PC Coralife on it, I only ever dosed 1/8 tsp. Perhaps try 1/2 tsp. 1 tsp is probably too much. Just dose and then wait an hour and measure your nitrate. Have you used that kit on other tanks to ensure it's still good? The only reason I ask is that I thought a kit was good and it wasn't measuring very nitrate and I ended up losing a lot of fish and when I bought a new kit just to test the nitrate was through the roof (>50ppm).


Hm. Guess your cardinals pretty much don't have any bioload at all. I dose 1/8 tsp NO3 only as well, and even only 2x a week. I agree, go with 1/2 tsp. It will likely accumulate over the week anyways, hence the 50% change part of EI.

I say measure 2 mornings later though? Right before next dose?


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## 2wheelsx2

Reckon said:


> I say measure 2 mornings later though? Right before next dose?


I was only worried about dissolution, but both methods work, as long as 2 measurements are made so that the net gain/loss in nutrient is observed.


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## AdobeOtoCat

Im going to use the test fluid to make sure. Wow over 50. Thanks for the tip!
Ya. Theres a huge amount of plants in the corner left. Or my nitrates are just being sucked up by the algae. My co2 was too low before too.

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## 2wheelsx2

AdobeOtoCat said:


> Ya. Theres a huge amount of plants in the corner left. Or my nitrates are just being sucked up by the algae. My co2 was too low before too.


High uptake + large plant mass + low CO2 = all the algae problems you observe. Get the CO2 dialed in, prune and treat all that algae mercilously, do a few extra water changes and check your dosing and I think you'll have it licked in a few weeks.


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## Tommy72a

Keep us posted! I hope it works out for ya!


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## crimper

Everything that I could think of is already been mentioned. All I can say is Don't give up brotha! 

I've been there and I how how it feels, I had a massive algae outbreak too when I first started. But I didn't get discouraged and learned from my mistakes. 

Keeping a balance aquarium is a learning process... it's a challenge. Until now there are still unknowns that I encountered every day and I try to understand... plant, fish and algae tendencies. I'm still getting diatom bloom from time to time, and do the necessary adjustments to balance the system. All the facts and valuable experiences are here at the forum, a community that willing to help and share their experiences and knowledge.


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## AdobeOtoCat

2wheelsx2 said:


> I was only worried about dissolution, but both methods work, as long as 2 measurements are made so that the net gain/loss in nutrient is observed.


Two measurements? After weekly water change and again before the next water change?



Tommy72a said:


> Keep us posted! I hope it works out for ya!


Im trying D: the cyano is persistant. The growth of bba appears to have slowed a bit.



crimper said:


> Everything that I could think of is already been mentioned. All I can say is Don't give up brotha!
> 
> I've been there and I how how it feels, I had a massive algae outbreak too when I first started. But I didn't get discouraged and learned from my mistakes.
> 
> Keeping a balance aquarium is a learning process... it's a challenge. Until now there are still unknowns that I encountered every day and I try to understand... plant, fish and algae tendencies. I'm still getting diatom bloom from time to time, and do the necessary adjustments to balance the system. All the facts and valuable experiences are here at the forum, a community that willing to help and share their experiences and knowledge.


Your hc is so nice until.it started floating  thank you. Im trying my best.i took out the mysterious rocks i found and trying to measure its ph to see if it affects my water quality.

Im currently confused to whether or not if running my Co2 24/7 will pose any problems. (Not that it had before). Should I go for a solenoid? My ph is 6.5 at day and night.is this possible ? Maybe i should measure it again 3 or more hours after lights out. My waters buffering capacity is on the soft side.

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## 2wheelsx2

AdobeOtoCat said:


> Two measurements? After weekly water change and again before the next water change?


There are a variety of methods, but what you wrote is one. You can tell the net gain in nitrates per day then. And how much you're reducing it by using your water change percentage. So if you start out at 10 ppm after a water change and dose 10 ppm every other day, by the week's end before the water change you should have a gain of 30 ppm (so you're sitting at 40 ppm) without the stuff the fish is adding). You can then use that to decide how much to add after every water change. Say you do that and at the end of the week before the change, you're at zero, that means your net gain is -40 ppm (or loss of 40 ppm), which means you are consuming almost 6 ppm a day. But you don't know how long you have been at zero, so you may have to do an earlier test the next week just to make sure you're not bottoming before the end of the week, or you can double your dose to 20 ppm a day the next week and make the same measurements.



> Im currently confused to whether or not if running my Co2 24/7 will pose any problems. (Not that it had before). Should I go for a solenoid? My ph is 6.5 at day and night.is this possible ? Maybe i should measure it again 3 or more hours after lights out. My waters buffering capacity is on the soft side.


Running CO2 24/7 is not a problem in itself, except you have high light. I suspect that at some stage after lights on, you run low on CO2 in the water column, which is what is causing your grief. If you have a solenoid, you can raise the injection rate when you turn it on higher than it is now, since CO2 is produced by the plants upon lights out. With a solenoid you can turn the CO2 on 30 minutes before lights out and have the injection rate higher than 24/7 injection without worrying about gassing your fish at night, and then turn it off 30 minutes before lights out to ensure the CO2 is depleted before your plants produce CO2 instead of O2.


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## waynet

reduce light. I eliminated most of the algae naturally after doing that.


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## crimper

AdobeOtoCat said:


> AdobeOtoCat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im currently confused to whether or not if running my Co2 24/7 will pose any problems. (Not that it had before). Should I go for a solenoid? My ph is 6.5 at day and night.is this possible ? Maybe i should measure it again 3 or more hours after lights out. My waters buffering capacity is on the soft side.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
> 
> 
> 
> Running CO2 24/7 is not a problem as 2wheel2x already mentioned, I leave my C02 running 24/7 too. I still need to prove that CO2 accumulates over night (when the light is off), which never happened to me by the way. My Co2 level is stable @ 6.2 from the moment the light goes off until it goes back on the next day( this is without using a ph controller). I have a very low bio load by the way.
Click to expand...


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## AdobeOtoCat

8


2wheelsx2 said:


> There are a variety of methods, but what you wrote is one. You can tell the net gain in nitrates per day then. And how much you're reducing it by using your water change percentage. So if you start out at 10 ppm after a water change and dose 10 ppm every other day, by the week's end before the water change you should have a gain of 30 ppm (so you're sitting at 40 ppm) without the stuff the fish is adding). You can then use that to decide how much to add after every water change. Say you do that and at the end of the week before the change, you're at zero, that means your net gain is -40 ppm (or loss of 40 ppm), which means you are consuming almost 6 ppm a day. But you don't know how long you have been at zero, so you may have to do an earlier test the next week just to make sure you're not bottoming before the end of the week, or you can double your dose to 20 ppm a day the next week and make the same measurements.
> 
> Running CO2 24/7 is not a problem in itself, except you have high light. I suspect that at some stage after lights on, you run low on CO2 in the water column, which is what is causing your grief. If you have a solenoid, you can raise the injection rate when you turn it on higher than it is now, since CO2 is produced by the plants upon lights out. With a solenoid you can turn the CO2 on 30 minutes before lights out and have the injection rate higher than 24/7 injection without worrying about gassing your fish at night, and then turn it off 30 minutes before lights out to ensure the CO2 is depleted before your plants produce CO2 instead of O2.


Ok i just did a water change and before the change it was at 30ppm. Now its at 10. Ill wait till tomorrow to add 10 more. Ill sure be to invest in a solenoid. Im going to grab it off a member if this doesnt work out. Yes for sure. My co2 was less than 2-3bps way too low. My indicator was green blue. Now its green.



waynet said:


> reduce light. I eliminated most of the algae naturally after doing that.


I didnt have a problem with the light before. Its due to my reduction of my bioload from 24 to 16 to 7. I dont wish to reduce the time of my lights further to 6 hours perday. This really kills the hobby for me as i cant view it. But thanks for the suggestion 



crimper said:


> AdobeOtoCat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Running CO2 24/7 is not a problem as 2wheel2x already mentioned, I leave my C02 running 24/7 too. I still need to prove that CO2 accumulates over night (when the light is off), which never happened to me by the way. My Co2 level is stable @ 6.2 from the moment the light goes off until it goes back on the next day( this is without using a ph controller). I have a very low bio load by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reassurance. It ls running 24/7 with surface skim. Just in case.
> 
> Ive noticed my bba turning red. The cyano dieing back. When i added 1/16 tsp of csm+b. As for increasing nitrates on the every other day has reduced the growth of bba. I notice it more on dosing micro days though. What is going on here exactly?
> 
> Thanks so much everyone for the comments and suggestions. You guys are awesome.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE
Click to expand...


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## Reckon

AdobeOtoCat said:


> Ive noticed my bba turning red. The cyano dieing back. When i added 1/16 tsp of csm+b. As for increasing nitrates on the every other day has reduced the growth of bba. I notice it more on dosing micro days though. What is going on here exactly?
> 
> Thanks so much everyone for the comments and suggestions. You guys are awesome.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


Micronutrients particularly iron helps with photosynthesis. Great to hear that there are improvements in reducing algae so quickly.


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## 2wheelsx2

AdobeOtoCat said:


> Ive noticed my bba turning red. The cyano dieing back. When i added 1/16 tsp of csm+b. As for increasing nitrates on the every other day has reduced the growth of bba. I notice it more on dosing micro days though. What is going on here exactly?


Since there are a variety of factors being changed, it's difficult to narrow to one thing but it appears to me that you were limited in your nutrients (NPK) and even CO2. Since algae is opportunistic, now that you've bumped the CO2 and the ferts, the plants are doing better and the algae does not have as strong a foothold to propagate. As for the BBA turning red, are you dosing Excel or Metricide?


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## AdobeOtoCat

Is the iron in the csm b sufficient? I do have just iron in a bottle from flourish.

Im not dosing anything. Just one or two turned red. Today theres limited change to their growth. Cyano has not spread yet. Those brown hair algae is coming back pretty fast. 

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## discuspaul

You mentioned the cyano is quite persistent, and it looks like you have quite a bit of it. As you likely know, one of the main causes of cyano bacteria build up is an accumulation of wastes of various kinds - excess food, decomposing plant matter, and the like, along with a lack of oxygen in the lower portions of the tank, mainly on/near the substrate - 'dead' spots due to lack of circulation.
It would help in the future to significantly improve the circulation at the lower portions of your tank. This can be done with a properly positioned circulation pump of a size that will do the job in your tank.

As for getting rid of the cyano now, and quickly, follow this procedure:
At your next wc, when you have removed your normal 8 gallons of water, and your filter is turned off, dose full strength plain, inexpensive household hydrogen peroxide (H202) directly, at close range, unto the affected areas, using a test kit pipette, or plastic syringe.
You should quickly see numerous bubbles (oxygen) building up over the cyano, and then flowing up into the water column - sure sign the H202 is working. Leave the filter off for a half hour at least, to preclude any flow of water to remove the h202 until it has done it's job. Refill your tank & leave it overnite.
By the next day it should have mostly disappeared. If there is any remaining, repeat the procedure the next day or so.
Believe it, it works very well - try it. You'll see how well it works.
Others above have given you good advice for getting rid of other algaes you have, with adjustments to your fertilizing, lighting, CO2, etc., and you're obviously seeing improvements already.

What I've outlined above, is strictly the treatment for cyano - Improved circulation, along with a good vac job on the substrate with each wc, along with the othermeasures you've already taken, should deal with the main root causes, so that it doesn't re-appear.


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## jbyoung00008

If you want to get rid of the cyno dose Erythromycin. It will get rid of the cyno in 2 days but continue treatment for 7 otherswise it might come back. Ive used this product on so many peoples tanks. It works like magic. Ive dosed my own planted tank with it and it had no effects on my shrimp or fish. I cant prove it doesnt kill good bacteria as some people claim. Ive never had any issues after using it. If you wanted to play it safe dose some stability after the treatment. I beleive J&L sells another similiar medicine that is meant for cyno. A buddy bought it so I havnt seen if it works yet. IMO Stop wasting your time trying all these other methods. This stuff works with no effects on the inhabitants of the tank.

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals E.M. Erythromycin Fish Medication (10 Pack)


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## AdobeOtoCat

discuspaul said:


> You mentioned the cyano is quite persistent, and it looks like you have quite a bit of it. As you likely know, one of the main causes of cyano bacteria build up is an accumulation of wastes of various kinds - excess food, decomposing plant matter, and the like, along with a lack of oxygen in the lower portions of the tank, mainly on/near the substrate - 'dead' spots due to lack of circulation.
> It would help in the future to significantly improve the circulation at the lower portions of your tank. This can be done with a properly positioned circulation pump of a size that will do the job in your tank.
> 
> As for getting rid of the cyano now, and quickly, follow this procedure:
> At your next wc, when you have removed your normal 8 gallons of water, and your filter is turned off, dose full strength plain, inexpensive household hydrogen peroxide (H202) directly, at close range, unto the affected areas, using a test kit pipette, or plastic syringe.
> You should quickly see numerous bubbles (oxygen) building up over the cyano, and then flowing up into the water column - sure sign the H202 is working. Leave the filter off for a half hour at least, to preclude any flow of water to remove the h202 until it has done it's job. Refill your tank & leave it overnite.
> By the next day it should have mostly disappeared. If there is any remaining, repeat the procedure the next day or so.
> Believe it, it works very well - try it. You'll see how well it works.
> Others above have given you good advice for getting rid of other algaes you have, with adjustments to your fertilizing, lighting, CO2, etc., and you're obviously seeing improvements already.
> 
> What I've outlined above, is strictly the treatment for cyano - Improved circulation, along with a good vac job on the substrate with each wc, along with the othermeasures you've already taken, should deal with the main root causes, so that it doesn't re-appear.


I did the h2o2 treatment before. It was gone permanently until i reduced my livestock. I will use it again tomorrow and control the bacteria and dose the bba as well. Thanks. Today the cyano seems to be growing. I need to measure my phosphates and nitrates again.



jbyoung00008 said:


> If you want to get rid of the cyno dose Erythromycin. It will get rid of the cyno in 2 days but continue treatment for 7 otherswise it might come back. Ive used this product on so many peoples tanks. It works like magic. Ive dosed my own planted tank with it and it had no effects on my shrimp or fish. I cant prove it doesnt kill good bacteria as some people claim. Ive never had any issues after using it. If you wanted to play it safe dose some stability after the treatment. I beleive J&L sells another similiar medicine that is meant for cyno. A buddy bought it so I havnt seen if it works yet. IMO Stop wasting your time trying all these other methods. This stuff works with no effects on the inhabitants of the tank.
> 
> Aquarium Pharmaceuticals E.M. Erythromycin Fish Medication (10 Pack)


Thank you for your advice. The thing is. I also wish to see my plants grow happily. I remember that i read somewhere that the advice is to do all the possible things to make your plants prosper, dont worry about the algae because if all the plant's needs are met and thrives, then there will be no algae.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## jbyoung00008

AdobeOtoCat said:


> I did the h2o2 treatment before. It was gone permanently until i reduced my livestock. I will use it again tomorrow and control the bacteria and dose the bba as well. Thanks. Today the cyano seems to be growing. I need to measure my phosphates and nitrates again.
> 
> Thank you for your advice. The thing is. I also wish to see my plants grow happily. I remember that i read somewhere that the advice is to do all the possible things to make your plants prosper, dont worry about the algae because if all the plant's needs are met and thrives, then there will be no algae.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


Of course you want to see your plants do well but they wont thrive in a tank with cyno bacteria so getting rid of that should be your main priority. If you keep getting it than there is an issue. Ive noticed a few common issue people have with their tanks and algea occurs because of it. Light being on for too long or how and what they feed. How often are you feeding and what type of food? If you are feeding flake fish food I will tell you its full of phosphates. It also blows all over the place in the tank and never gets eaten. Adding more waste to the tank. If you are feeding a pellet already and you know you arnt over feeding than its safe to say thats not whats causing these algea problems. Something is going wrong. Hopefully we all can help you figure it out.


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## crimper

jbyoung00008 said:


> Of course you want to see your plants do well but they wont thrive in a tank with cyno bacteria so getting rid of that should be your main priority. If you keep getting it than there is an issue. Ive noticed a few common issue people have with their tanks and algea occurs because of it. Light being on for too long or how and what they feed. How often are you feeding and what type of food? If you are feeding flake fish food I will tell you its full of phosphates. It also blows all over the place in the tank and never gets eaten. Adding more waste to the tank. If you are feeding a pellet already and you know you arnt over feeding than its safe to say thats not whats causing these algea problems. Something is going wrong. Hopefully we all can help you figure it out.


+1 Most of the time, the No.1 problem is too much light exposure.


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## AdobeOtoCat

Im doing the h2o2 right now. Just measured nitrate and its through the roof. The fish did not eat the pellets i normally feed them. I feed them tetra colour. Sinking pellets

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## AdobeOtoCat

jbyoung00008 said:


> Of course you want to see your plants do well but they wont thrive in a tank with cyno bacteria so getting rid of that should be your main priority. If you keep getting it than there is an issue. Ive noticed a few common issue people have with their tanks and algea occurs because of it. Light being on for too long or how and what they feed. How often are you feeding and what type of food? If you are feeding flake fish food I will tell you its full of phosphates. It also blows all over the place in the tank and never gets eaten. Adding more waste to the tank. If you are feeding a pellet already and you know you arnt over feeding than its safe to say thats not whats causing these algea problems. Something is going wrong. Hopefully we all can help you figure it out.


You are absolutely right. I am going to kill the cyano first. This should give my plants a go at competing.

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## AdobeOtoCat

Since the tank is somewhat exposed to sunlight. (not direct). I am going to let the lights come on at 10am - 5 pm. reduced two hours.


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## crazy72

I remember reading somewhere that it helped (against algae, that is), to have the lights off again for an hour or two around mid-day. So something like 9-12 and then 2-6. I don't do it myself anymore because I now use LED lights that don't seem to promote algae anyway, but I used to do this with T5HO.


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## Jaguar

For cyano, yes dosing Nitrates is good, but you also have to have enough phosphate to support it - for 10-20ppm of Nitrate you will want around 1ppm of phosphate or you won't get far. I speak from experience with cyano - it ravaged my tanks for 2 years before I finally clued in that fish waste was NOT providing me with enough phosphate. I tried dosing up to 40ppm of nitrates, adding more flow, hydrogen peroxide, DIY CO2, manual removals, bleach dips, EVERYTHING.... when I started dosing phosphates it went away like magic. No joke. I feel so, so stupid for not even thinking about it months ago, but - you live and you learn, and then you share what you've learned with others! 

My tank went from this:










To this:










In just a few weeks of phosphate dosing @ 1ppm, nitrate at 20ppm. This very well may sort out your other algae problems too. Phosphate is a VERY essential macro nutrient for plants. Without it they will not be able to outgrow algae, which is opportunistic, and just fine with less than ideal nutrient levels.


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## 2wheelsx2

It's because the plants are not able to utilize nitrates in the absence of phosphates, unlike free ammonia, which the plants can freely update directly from fish waste.


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## AdobeOtoCat

Jaguar said:


> For cyano, yes dosing Nitrates is good, but you also have to have enough phosphate to support it - for 10-20ppm of Nitrate you will want around 1ppm of phosphate or you won't get far. I speak from experience with cyano - it ravaged my tanks for 2 years before I finally clued in that fish waste was NOT providing me with enough phosphate. I tried dosing up to 40ppm of nitrates, adding more flow, hydrogen peroxide, DIY CO2, manual removals, bleach dips, EVERYTHING.... when I started dosing phosphates it went away like magic. No joke. I feel so, so stupid for not even thinking about it months ago, but - you live and you learn, and then you share what you've learned with others!
> 
> My tank went from this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In just a few weeks of phosphate dosing @ 1ppm, nitrate at 20ppm. This very well may sort out your other algae problems too. Phosphate is a VERY essential macro nutrient for plants. Without it they will not be able to outgrow algae, which is opportunistic, and just fine with less than ideal nutrient levels.


That is freaken amazinggggg. I just did wc and got the phosphates to 1ppm. Nitrate to 25 ppm (less fish than you). H2o2 the cyano and some bba. Lets see how this goes.



2wheelsx2 said:


> It's because the plants are not able to utilize nitrates in the absence of phosphates, unlike free ammonia, which the plants can freely update directly from fish waste.


For sure. No wonder I saw some green diatoms popping out now. Low phosphates. (This I read somewhere). 
Did not know the info of free ammonia. Learned something new. Thank you for the info 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## Jaguar

Also - my tank is low tech with no CO2! So you've got one up on me in that department.

What I went by I believe is called Redfield ratio - it is basically 16 nitrate to 1 phosphate. I have also read that green algae could be too little phosphates. Keep on top of maintenance (consistent WC's, trimming dead leaves, dosing ferts) and also manual suction removal of the cyano. I removed about 80% of my cyano manually and after about 2 weeks of dosing, what little was left had disappeared and didn't come back. Let us know how it goes!


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## dino

just curious are your bulbs stock on the oddysea because i found them to be crap and produce more algae in my tank for some reason


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## AdobeOtoCat

Jaguar said:


> Also - my tank is low tech with no CO2! So you've got one up on me in that department.
> 
> What I went by I believe is called Redfield ratio - it is basically 16 nitrate to 1 phosphate. I have also read that green algae could be too little phosphates. Keep on top of maintenance (consistent WC's, trimming dead leaves, dosing ferts) and also manual suction removal of the cyano. I removed about 80% of my cyano manually and after about 2 weeks of dosing, what little was left had disappeared and didn't come back. Let us know how it goes!


The cyano has died down dramatically after the h2o2 ! I also measure the phosphates and nitrates everyday to make sure its at 25ppm nitrates and 1ppm phosphates. Its going great. Will post pictures.



dino said:


> just curious are your bulbs stock on the oddysea because i found them to be crap and produce more algae in my tank for some reason


Yes i do have the stock ones...so should be heading to jl to get the nicer ones? Which ones do you use?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## Reckon

Great to hear the tank is doing better. I found that I could keep the PO4 levels a bit lower in my low tech tank (12:1, NO3O4 ratio), it seems to be the right balance. In high tech tanks I needed much more PO4.

I wasn't thrilled with Odyssea bulbs, they were ok. I bought Geisemanns and I really really like them. I say one midday and one aquaflora bulbs. I've read that some people don't like the yellowness of Geisemanns' midday bulbs but I think the FW colors are much more natural with them.

I have pictures of using 2 Odyssea bulbs and then the Geisemann combo stated above. I'll post them when I get home.


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## crimper

Reckon said:


> I bought Geisemanns and I really really like them. I say one midday and one aquaflora bulbs. I've read that some people don't like the yellowness of Geisemanns' midday bulbs but I think the FW colors are much more natural with them.


I have both Odyssey and Giesman, Odyssey is a really cheap bulb it's a waste of money in my opinion.

I'm not solved with Geisman either, I'll take Coralife anytime for two reasons.

1. After 6 month my midday craps out, and it is $7 more than Coralife. (The sales guy from a LFS laugh at me when I pick Coralife vs Giesman...) If I spend more, I'll buy ATI instead.

2. Don't get me wrong plants growth is ridiculous on Giesmann bulbs, so as algae growth 

If I can get ATI locally, I'll spend my money on ATI.

My 2 cents. :bigsmile:


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## 2wheelsx2

I started out with Coralife and have got rid of them all for the following reasons:

1. 6 - 8 months before light is significantly diminished.
2. The ends fell right off 2 bulbs after a couple of months.

I now run all Giesemanns. Aquarflora and Daylight. Going on 18 months with 1 of the bulbs, 16 with the other 3. Still bright but definitely diminished. The Corailife is cheap, but either way, they're not any cheaper (during my use of them) based on price/day used. I'm going to go to LED in my setup because at $80+ for 4 bulbs, it pays back in a year whien power usage is included.


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## Reckon

I've been thinking the same thing, any ideas on what LED fixture you'd want to go?



2wheelsx2 said:


> I started out with Coralife and have got rid of them all for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. 6 - 8 months before light is significantly diminished.
> 2. The ends fell right off 2 bulbs after a couple of months.
> 
> I now run all Giesemanns. Aquarflora and Daylight. Going on 18 months with 1 of the bulbs, 16 with the other 3. Still bright but definitely diminished. The Corailife is cheap, but either way, they're not any cheaper (during my use of them) based on price/day used. I'm going to go to LED in my setup because at $80+ for 4 bulbs, it pays back in a year which power usage is included.


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## 2wheelsx2

Reckon said:


> I've been thinking the same thing, any ideas on what LED fixture you'd want to go?


Haven't really decided. Some choices may require a new canopy. Top picks right now are Panorama Pro modules or Kessil Amazon Sun.


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## Reckon

ok, here are the differences.

1) 2 Odyssea









2) 1 Geisemann Aquaflora 1 Midday









More pop to colors but a pink hue.
I personally prefer 2-3 Midday and 1 Aquaflora.


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## Reckon

Those Odyssea bulbs were around 4 months old at the time.


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## 2wheelsx2

I should really get off my lazy butt and take the PAR meter readings of my different setups since I recently got one of the "Good Enough PAR" meters from MisterGreen on plantedtank.net. It's shocking how much light some of the LED's put out.


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## Reckon

2wheelsx2 said:


> I should really get off my lazy butt and take the PAR meter readings of my different setups since I recently got one of the "Good Enough PAR" meters from MisterGreen on plantedtank.net. It's shocking how much light some of the LED's put out.


As in lots or not enough?
I'd be thrilled to see a comparison of a few set ups including an led fixture I'm looking at.


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## 2wheelsx2

Excessive, especially on my ADA cube. I'll run up a thread when I get a chance. It's not Apogee, but it works well enough for comparison.


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## Jaguar

Glad to hear your tank's doing well! Mine's still chugging along too, slow but steady 

I have 12 Cree XPG's (3w each) from RapidLED over my 60-P - it's definitely overkill on the lighting if you run everything full blast. But I love the flexibility of it - it has a dimmer module that can do morning/evening cycles, etc. and you can mix and match color temps to your liking (mine are all 5600k's, but I might add a few 10kk's as it's a touch on the green side). The whole setup cost me about $275 after shipping. The LEDs themselves are about $8 each, so for $100 worth of LEDs they will last at LEAST 3 years running 8 hrs a day - but they may last a lot longer. And they can be swapped out easily, no soldering. Plus the shimmer is awesome!


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## AdobeOtoCat

Going to jl right now to grab giesman bulbs. I used to have the vertex illumilux over it and i cant seem to grow carpet plants. My dwarfhair grass grew really slow. I miss the shimmer effect for sure.

Huge difference between the odysea bulbs and gies. I like the yellowness since i find it to be more natural. Thanks for the picture refference. 

You guys are awesome. My cyano is coming back a bit and im just going to adjust my nitrate levels. Getting more hydrogen peroxide for the bba. Theyre not showing any signs of new growth. So using it to kill the remaining batches off. 

Could i use the hc trimmings to plant? Will they develope roots? Mine are growing more vertical rather than spreading. 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## Reckon

Sorry, when you had the illumilux you couldn't grow carpet??
I say just use the medication for the cyano and just get rid of all of it. Just make sure to do a bunch of water changes when they die.
Yes, you can plant HC trimmings. It's a pain but I do it if I'm a bit impatient in trying to grow in some carpet. Mine grow horiztonally only when they are happy, lighting, co2, and ferts included. Mind you I push co2 a lot.


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## 2wheelsx2

The problem with the Vertex is coverage. It's a skinny fixture, so the best light is directly under it. With my AquaRay tile, the drop-off isn't as dramatic as it's a 6" square.

As for the cyano/BGA, try to suck out as much as possible. It would eliminate the decay which will inevitably occur when you kill it with antibiotics or H2O2.

The easiest way to use the trimmings is to jump the whole thing under the substrate and then use tweezers to tease the shoots up so that a lot of it is weighed down, or you'll be doing it over and over.


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## AdobeOtoCat

Ill trim and plant this weekend. Just changed the bulbs and loving the warmness of the light. The plants are also pearling. Remarkable difference. Using excel this time to kill bba. 25 ml spot dosed. Reccomended dose was a capful per 10 gal. I think i doubled it. Going to change water soon. Phosphates are a bit high 2. Nitrates. 30. Kh <20. Ph. 5.5. Too low. Added kh booster. Gh is 60. Ammonia. 0.

















Yes. The coverage was bad...i disliked that about it. Yup no algae problem back then and still a limited carpet coverage. :s

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## AdobeOtoCat

Excel does not work as well as h2o2. Going to use h2o2 instead.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## Jaguar

Keep it up! And also keep on top of manual removal - I kept a long piece of airline tubing and a small water pitcher right beside the tank and would do some quick removal 1-2 times a day


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## Reckon

It does look much better than before. Keep up the hard work, afterwards its just maintenance


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## AdobeOtoCat

Thanks a bunch! My tank has some bba left. How do I get the plants to pearl? Should i vacuum my substrate and replant? Thanks!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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## Reckon

Plants pearl when they are happy and photosynthesizing. This occurs when all their needs are met and they are able to take in nutrients; NPK + trace, light, and ample CO2.


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## 2wheelsx2

The pearling is an oversaturation of the localized area around the plant in O2. If there is enough flow in the tank you usually won't see as much pearling. And certain plants pearl more than others. For you to see the pearling, the O2 bubbles have to bubble large enough for the human eye to see. But in fact, they are "pearling" on a microscopic scale whenever they are photosynthesizing. Even algae pearls. I am not sure trace minerals affect pearling or not since it's such a minor components of the nutrient stream. Carbon, NPK and light do, as they are the major building blocks.


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## AdobeOtoCat

They're all pearling now. The tank is looking great. Got some otocats to the community and they're very happy. The HC is spreading a lot now too!!! This is awesome


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## Reckon

glad to hear that


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## crimper

Watch out when those algae pearl too, they love Giesman's spectrum. 

Im glad things are better now on you.


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## AdobeOtoCat

I want to thank everyone who have helped me with this thread. You guys are the best! go bcaquaria! 

Tank today!


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## Reckon

WOW! Looks AMAZING!!!! Congrats. I'm glad to see it has come back. Keep up the good work.


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## Sploosh

WOW, Looks Great  I like that sand river... I tried it in my invert only tank, it got mixed up within a week though 
Glad you stuck with it, another fantastic tank to look at


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## AdobeOtoCat

Reckon said:


> WOW! Looks AMAZING!!!! Congrats. I'm glad to see it has come back. Keep up the good work.


Thanks  there are some cyano in the gravel between the glass. Is that normal?


Sploosh said:


> WOW, Looks Great  I like that sand river... I tried it in my invert only tank, it got mixed up within a week though
> Glad you stuck with it, another fantastic tank to look at


Thank you, hahaha ya it does get mixed up. I have to wait for the HC to grow so the roots can keep the substrate from moving around. right now im always using a screen to get the substrate out of the sand. Troublesome 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S2 LTE


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