# Public school student fees time!



## neven (May 15, 2010)

I got a letter from my kids school, apparently now it costs me $40 to send my son to kindergarten in a public school. This reminded me of when i was in school. My family wasn't well off, we had issues with a family member being addicted to Slots, so it was a struggle for my parents. So when i was in highschool, my school decided to charge me around $180 in student fees one year, with stupid break downs like: Math 12 - $15 (Dry markers and work sheets). I told my school my family could not afford it, and what ended up happenign was them trying to convince me we needed to be on a deferred payment plan, they talked down to me, tried to make me feel like dirt, wanting information on how poor my family was all for not wanting to pay something i shouldn't need to. In the end they threatened to withhold my report card and yearbook. So that year i didn't get a yearbook, but of course the grades got submitted like they had to be.. Education is supposed to be free, for courses like electronics, and such, our instructor was a true believer in that so he made do without charging us for materials throughout the course, but always left the options open for us to opt into bigger scope projects (which many didn't do anyways, but i used my saved $$$ to do that). Sooo its a bone i want to indeed pick with my local school district, especially since the Victoria school district was successfully sued by a school trustee. so here is the start of my battle:

Hello,

I got a letter from Bramblewood Elementary regarding fees for my child's kindergarten program. In 2006, a court decision set the precedent that student fees for essential curriculum k-12 are illegal, this would include offsetting teacher supply costs, necessary excercize books and any material required for course completion. So i would like an official breakdown on what the $40 covers, since there must be numbers somewhere to make up this cost. I would also like to mention that any material on that list that is necessary for your curriculum should not be included in this cost breakdown as those supplies are to be supplied by the school district. I am not financially troubled, i do not wish to work out a deferred payment option, i only want the cost breakdown on supplies my child will need so i can decide to buy them myself or pay the school to supply them.

Sincerely,

Robert xxxxxxxxx


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Well done. I'm pretty sure we pay taxes for essential services, which I do believe includes EDUCATION! Just crazy...


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## Jay2x (Jul 20, 2010)

LOL teachers hugging the field trip jar fund...


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

Have you been in to talk to the school? They may be able to give you a straight answer. Hopefully. 

We live in the same district and I have a daughter going into 3rd grade. There have been no upfront student fees ever. There are some costs for field trips but they are always optional. (my daughter has never had a field trip in 3 years). 

The schools out here have the option of having them but school supplies through the school. It is about $40 and you can just buy them yourself if you want to. These are the standard things that patents have bought from the beginning of time. I still remember lining up in K Mart with all of my pencils and stuff. Anyhow, rather than fighting the crowds they give us that option. 

Are you sure it is for student fees or if it is for the school supplies?


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

scherzo said:


> Are you sure it is for student fees or if it is for the school supplies?


I believe this is exactly the definition he is requesting. Regardless they should be required to provide the break down, item by item, cost by cost, accompanying the request total if they expect a parent to pay for this. If they're part of the school system, english and basic math shouldn't be an issue.


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## Claudia (Apr 21, 2010)

We are in school district #43 and i am assuming should b the same all the school around the tricities. I actually get a School supplies list for my 2 boys, one goes to elementary and the other one to middle school. What they are charging u is administration fees which i have no idea why they charge them for


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

That is weird. We have never paid for any administration fee. Just the choice of whether or not we want to buy the school supplies or if we want them to buy them for us. We are talking things like binders, pencils, etc... We are not talking - science workbook or things that the classroom needs. 

They should have a list in their school website or an email they send with the list of items. I know not all schools are the same but ours usually provides a list. 

I think the issue in Victoria was that they were charging for items that were used to teach the curriculum that a school would be expected to provide. Like chemicals for science class, a basketball for PE, etc... The school wouldn't be expected to provide running shoes or a notebook for the kids to write in, so that is part of the school supplies list. 

If they are charging some kind of admin fee or a course (kindergarten) fee, then I would dispute it. If it is for basic school supplies which every individual is expected to provide for their student then you should have the option of buying them through the school or buying them yourself.


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Some schools do follow the guidelines, the problem is the school districts don't enforce them, or they rename administration fees with something else. I do know what you are talking about, a supplies list, but i have yet to see a specific supplies list mailed to me. When i went to elementary school and middle school in SD43, there were no fees, except for things like patterned fabric in home economics, the frills that is. When i went to highschool in SD43 though, heres a list of things i remember for them charging:
Dry Markers, erasers and cleaner
Paper for worksheet print out (mandatory for homework)
Text book fees (you needed to rent your books, if one was damaged, you would pay, but they would not remove the book from circulation)
Special Assignment packages, like Geometry Workbook (mandatory for passing course)
administration fees

and lastly, for elective subjects, which you still need a number of to graduate, you were expected to pay much higher fees to cover material costs, without an alternative basic free option. Foods would require you to pay for food safe AND food, wood working required you to pay for lumber, Fashion required you to pay even for the basic materials to work with. Photography you were given only enough paper for a couple projects, but not all of them, you had to purchase more. the list just went on and on. Some people if they chose the right courses, they would get fees $250-$300. This kind of thing indirectly creates two tiered education because many familys are forced to have their kids in the "cheaper" subjects


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## Claudia (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes the school supplies list in every schools website (pencil binder etc) besides that they always ask for a box of tissue lol And of course the adm fee


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

I was going to ask if we had the same electronics teacher (I went to sd43 as well) but you mentioned that you went to middle school... When I went to school here there were 3 high schools and junior high schools not middle schools...

I did have an awesome electronics teacher. I remember our strobe light project where some people built the basic kit and others splurged (paid more) for one with a mirrored finish. 

That is too bad that they charge a fee at your school. If it is indeed a district policy then this should really be brought to their attention. 

Oh and congratulations for having your daughter in school. Welcome to a whole new world! It is great fun! It sounds like you should join your school's PAC as well as you would have parents' concerns in mind and bring a different perspective. My wife is part of our PAC and it is great to be involved in our school and our community. (and she puts up with my aquarium habit and works full time too!)

Keep us posted with their response!


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

Oh... I should say that we don't get our school supplies list until August.


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## Pamela (Apr 21, 2010)

That's really odd that they would be charging $40 for Kindergarden. My step-daughter just graduated grade 12 & I have 4 other kids going into grades 1 through 10. We've never paid any school fees for elementary school. When the kids are in grades 4-7 they suggest that you buy a school planner for $6 but you don't have to buy it if you don't want to. At my kids elementary school they have a hot lunch program that they request something like $45 a month for (my kids aren't on it) but if you can't afford to pay you don't have to - no questions asked. Even my high school aged kids student fees are usually only $25. The yearbooks are $50 but they are really nice quality and of course they're optional. There are more fees for grads, but they are to cover grad events and are all optional. I'm pretty sure that my kids didn't have to pay anything extra for their foods courses either. My kids are in SD 41 Burnaby.


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

District 36 right here. Surrey high school. I remember a little more than "admin fees", which should be BS to begin with. Enough said.

I could only afford 2 out of the 4 year books and didn't attend my prom. Had a HUGE crush on one girl (they were twins) but only one, and I couldn't afford the opportunity to have a slow dance with her.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

awwww, thats sweet.... he said crush on *one *of them, I think thats why my twin conquest never come to light i was more interested in the package deal lol

anyways enough about that my kid is going into grade 1 in lk cowichan and they had an optional $40 charge for supplies or we can provide them, but i live in the boonies so different rules maybe?


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

in something semi related to the school thing 
as some of you may know i have 5 kids, with the oldest just turning 6... yeah we crazy i know. but our second oldest doesnt turn 5 until jan 2 and the school board out here has an age deadline of dec 31, so does anyone know how somebody would argue the entry of a child into the school system..

my second oldest spendss her entire day trying to "be big" like her sister and is sooo pumped up about school but it is a real touchy subject around my house because I think she would greatly benefit from having school , she is very smart and is on par with her older sister as far as being able to do the things a kindergarten student would normally do. the teacher whos class she would be going into said he has no issue with it 
but how do i tell her she has to sit at home for another year over 2 days... 
so if anyone has any thoughts as to fight to get her in please let me know, i figured talking to the school board but the one person we spoke on the phone with said we have deadlines for a reason... and that answer isnt acceptable to me


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## Claudia (Apr 21, 2010)

Same happen with my daughter, her bday is Feb. 4th and i had to wait one more year so she could start kindergarten cause of the cut off been dec.31st


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## Foxtail (Mar 14, 2012)

I think its better to wait. My bday is in november and I remember always being the youngest and sallest in the class in elementry school. Plus I was 12 going into highschool when most kids were 13...

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk 2


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

its pretty hard to tell that to a little girl who is stuck at home with her bratty brothers and her big sister comes home and has pictures that she has painted and stories about what happened at school..

I know waiting doesnt really mean anything but it is hard to see my daughter be bummed about not being able to do the same things.... and as a normal person should it makes me sad for her. because either mom or I are busy with the other kids it would do her good to be involved in something seperate from the house, also not to mention her having a sence of independence and being "big" is a BIG deal over here.. 
Needless to say my wife and I hadnt planned on such a large family but neither of us would ever take it back now, but I will say my tale would definitely be a cautionary tale to be told, Its no picnic as i am sure all of you posting on here know . Having kids I would say is by far the hardest thing in the world, but also the most rewarding thing any person or couple could go through.

my son is as of the last 2 days now a full time potty user so its been really fun seeing him transform from I DONT WANT TO USE THE POTTY to ripping around the house pants off high five-ing over going pee .

and in checking the mail today we recieved a package, and inside it my wife won a portable sony dvd player for the truck, and 4 25$ prepaid visa gift cards... all for collecting huggies points which i have ruthlessly made fun of her for doing lol... jokes on me i guess...so collect them points people sweet lil dvd player and a cool hundy not too shabby


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## Foxtail (Mar 14, 2012)

I gotta say the portable dvd player is a life saver... 

Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk 2


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

i was pretty stoked, wife didnt even know she won, she saw she won a prize or something but they never told her what , she thought she won a "potty watch" i have no idea but when i checked the mail today.. booyah, good score , however it came with i told you keeping these points wasnt stupid ...but hey small price,


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Foxtail said:


> I think its better to wait. My bday is in november and I remember always being the youngest and sallest in the class in elementry school. Plus I was 12 going into highschool when most kids were 13...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T959D using Tapatalk 2


Birthday is Nov 1st so I can completely relate. Especially when my best friend was only 2 months younger then me and therefore couldn't have a single class together. That sucked.


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## sarcastickitten (May 26, 2012)

My b-day is December and all my teachers would just end up telling my parent's that it was because my sister and I were a year ahead of everyone... so dumb really...

My son hasn't started kindergarten yet, but are they really charging for them to go to school now?? well what the heck do the taxes I pay go to then? I am pretty sure it says education... and if that is the case that they will now charge to have our kids go to public school then I think they should not send a "supplies" list home... I remember my school supplies list consisted of pencils, pens, markers highlighters (writing materials) blank, lined, and graph paper, 8 binders! and a special calculator, a lock for my locker... not too mention all the work book for various advanced courses or language courses and certification classes (first aid and food safe) 

I remember one year in high school they tried to pull the locker rental fee on us and I got one of those rolling backpacks so I didn't need a locker... once everyone else caught on, they cancelled that fee... student revolution of sorts...

Wow if they are going to charge me to have my son attend a public school they will definitely be hearing from me... if anyone has a petition started I will sign it!!!!


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

Any reply from the school as to what this fee is for?


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

My daughter finished high school three years ago. I recall paying a school fee in the last year of $240.00 but that included a trip to Hope. My housekeeper has two kids and she has to pay $500.00. 

It's nice for the kids to have a bit extra and $40.00 doesn't buy much. Nevertheless parents should be allowed to buy the supplies elsewhere.


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## Tazzy_toon (Jul 25, 2011)

I gotta say those fee's in high school where really a pet peeve for me, my kids didn't get any year books or any other extras like pictures etc. I had to pay for ALL materials used in extra curricular classes like metal for metal shop, fabric for homemaking etc. There where some fees that I had waived because it was a required course, but every class had a material fee. It's rediculous, but in some ways I don't blame schools for it, they're just trying to make up for all the cut backs.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

My kids are in elementary school in Richmond (French Emmersion) and we are alwasy asked to pay for supplies every year. 

We are also always asked to donate money to the school. Until I read this thread I just assume all schools are the same these days.

This might just be something that is only happening on our school. One teacher started suggesting G4-5 students to bring an ipod touch to school so they can use it as a dictionary a few years back and next thing you know everyone is bringing an ipod touch to school. 

It was supposed to be a suggestion only but everyone is bringing one to school--to use as a dictionary. The teacher who suggested this in the first place is really into electronics devices. I am under the impression that he really does not like to use an old fashion dictionary in class. Becasue if your kid has no ipod he/she would need to share one with his/her friend during class and it can be awkward, all parents fork out the few hunderd bucks and buy their kids one.

A lot of students are texting each other during class, recess and so on and needless to say some ipods were stolen and broken... because of this, some parents in Pac suggested to have some iPad in the school so they can be used in different classrooms and shared by all students who need them. We have a computer lab in the school with pretty new Mac computers but they are now trying to have a mobile computer labs with 30 ipad. They have been asking parents to donate to this cause. There were many fund raising events. For example, they organized a walkathon to try rasie money and the suggested amount for a single child was $100. If you donate more than a certain amount your children will have a chance to win a prize so the amount you send in was known to others.

Speaking of yearbook, last year's year book was printed by a color printer and binded by some ring binders like the kind you get from kinko. They were prepared by students rather than done by a professional company. I had to pay for it but I forgot how much exactly, think it was like $15-20 or so.

The teachers are very nice in this school and I have been very happy with them. My kids are very happy going to this school and they have made lots of friends. It is just that sometimes things can get more expensive than expected. I am not sure if it is because of funds cut or what.

Since everyone else has been paying them I do, too. Never really thought much about it.


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

As a highschool student our basic fee is usually only $25. But grad costs and yearbook can top $200. Sport teams range from $50-$125 as well. Along with trips with certain clubs that can cost $600-$1000+. This doesn't even include school supplies and possible extra class fees.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

I just found out actually the school did send us a letter about the optional service fee. It is $25 for students in K to grade 7 and it covers basic school supplies. 

In the letter it says that it is cheaper to buy through the school district than doing it ourselves and the teachers kind of just ask all studetns to bring her the money. I am not aware that any parent has refused to pay this amount. I still buy my kids sharpies, crayons and so on though as they run out very quickly.

Then for kindergarten there is an additional $15 for the "kindergarten cooking/snack program fee," which is optional but again I believe all parents pay this fee. I still need to provide snack for my own children; this $15 is for something else. On the letter it says it is "a learning opportunity for students in the areas of nutrition, food preparation and basic living skills. To a lesser degree, but still important, it provides a common snakck that all studetns share." 

Since I like the school and I trust them so I never really thought much about it and always just paid. I am not sure what exactly the extra $15 goes into.


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

I think some people confuse personal school supplies with communal (class) supplies.

I remember when I went to school in the 80s my parents would get a list of what I needed for class for my personal use like pencils, pencil crayons, pens, etc. I remember going to K-Mart every Aug to get these items all while trying to convince my parents that I needed a Commodore 64. These are items that parents have bought for their kids for many years.

There are items that are for communal classroom work and these things should be supplied for the school (at least at the elementary level). These are the items that should not be charged for. They can charge fees for elective courses because they are not required for graduation. Field trips, grad fees and other optional activities can also be charged because they are optional. If a child would like to go and there is a financial issue then the school, in confidence, should be able to help out. (hopefully)

I'm curious if they are charging for classroom supplies and not the personal supplies. If this is true then this should be cleared up because I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to do that.


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

Fish rookie,

I am not here to derail your thread, but believe these electronic devices have no place in the classroom.There's a time and place for everything and know once these things fail, its back to good old pen/pencil-book-paper. There's plus and negatives to their uses, but in the end it cant supplement the human brain and body.



Fish rookie said:


> My kids are in elementary school in Richmond (French Emmersion) and we are alwasy asked to pay for supplies every year.
> 
> We are also always asked to donate money to the school. Until I read this thread I just assume all schools are the same these days.
> 
> ...


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

With SMS and wifi (for non 3g ipads\ipod touches) the potential to cheat is FAR too tempting. I had some asian neighbours showing me their "translators" from China that were also at least 2-way type devices. They aced the course while I struggled through it in an honest manner.

We banned phones\ipods from our highschool, and they don't allow them at where I worked either.


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## Lamplighter (Aug 3, 2012)

The human brain invented everything that's manufactured or manipulated. The reality is that it's 2012 and ipads are a reality. Technology is wonderful and I embrace it.

Are there times when the use of ipads and other electronic devices should be restricted? Yes!


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## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

I've had the internet before the majority of you have, I can safely say that, to the majority. At 4yrs old I had a C64 and was not only playing video games, but launching commands and that blue and (yellow?) screen to get them running from the floppy disk I had just inserted. I certainly embrace technology.

To be able to cheat the system is just to easy though, I don't encourage that. If you're using a graphic calculator its one thing, if you can communicate with your class mates like I did during math 11, you're bucking the system. I would have actually failed a class in my life if I hadn't. It should be strictly monitored just as passing notes would be, simple as that.


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## Nicole (Nov 21, 2011)

Even though I just paid $4000 for 4 months of tuition which included $500 of BS things i'll never do or even relate to me, I am curious to see why you would need to pay $40 for kindergarten. I am very close to a kindergarten teacher though and can say that a lot of teachers have to spend their own money on art supplies, etc. because the school won't cover it. For example, she bought mini art canvases for each of her students to do a painting for mother's day and I felt bad that it had to come out of her paycheck. I bought the class some new paintbrushes to help out. This however does not excuse the school of not informing you on what the $40 is actually for.

As for electronics, I really don't understand why teachers even allow them in class. You will NEVER NEED a graphing calculator in high school. You won't need them in university (at least most people don't) and they're NOT ALLOWED in tests anyways. It's ironic how high school students have "cooler" and more advanced calculators when all you really need to get by is a simple scientific calculator. The ONLY calculator allowed in some uni classes is actually an ugly plain scientific calculator which doesn't even show you the previous numbers entered.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

My daughter started grade 1 on the 4th, and we were optioned to either pay the $25 bucks for her school supplies, or we could go get them, and we havent been asked to pay any additional fees of any kind, but i mean we live in the boonies and van city may have different rules/regulations.. but up here in lk cowichan its no fees as of yet...


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

Luke78 said:


> Fish rookie,
> 
> I am not here to derail your thread, but believe these electronic devices have no place in the classroom.There's a time and place for everything and know once these things fail, its back to good old pen/pencil-book-paper. There's plus and negatives to their uses, but in the end it cant supplement the human brain and body.


I actually agree with you but when all your kids classmates have one and the teacher is using one in class what am I suppose to say to my kid? It started when one teacher suggested it because he is really into electronic (he has all the latest gadgets) and he was only suggesting that if a student had an ipod touch he/she could bring it to class. Next thing you know everyone has one which means we all need to buy one for our kids. Then now the school is saying well, in stead of asking the parents to each pay for one or more ipod touch (some paretns have more than one kid) may be we can have an ipad mobile station so we are asked to donate for this cause. They want to raise enough money for 30 ipads in the school. Our school already has a computer lab with very new Apple Mac computers and each classroom also has a computer station with a mac that the teacher and the students can use.

I dont even use an ipod touch myself. LOL

I know some students actually text duing class as they all carry an ipod touch now (only grade 5/6, not highschool), I am not aware if they use it to cheat.


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Similar situation to kids soccer but it turns out one of the men who runs or is in charge of the local soccer program also buys all the uniforms from one place, he also encourages parents to purchase team jackets (only $70), matching socks are great too, helps the kids feel like they are more a part of the team.... He always forgets to mention he owns the store that supplies all this stuff to the teams... Wonder how many principles and or teachers have thought about opening stationary stores and cleaning up

Douglas


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## scherzo (Apr 24, 2010)

effox said:


> I've had the internet before the majority of you have, I can safely say that, to the majority. At 4yrs old I had a C64 and was not only playing video games, but launching commands and that blue and (yellow?) screen to get them running from the floppy disk I had just inserted. I certainly embrace technology.
> .


We're you browsing on Lynx like I was or are you before that? I was using the old MTS terminals up at SFU back in the 80s and 90s... Round about the NeXT days... What were you on?

This thread has kind of derailed but I do find it interesting. I think teachers still teach but use technology to enhance Ed. They shouldn't expect every student to have expensive pieces of equipment but most people have internet. I know many teachers who supplement class work with Internet links or some even record or screencast some lectures or tutorials so kids can access them 
At home.

High school kids will often use email to ask teachers questions or even use their phones or iPods to keep as an agenda or note taking device. Is this really that bad?

Anyway... Back to the topic of school fees....


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

So the result of this was them providing the list to us, so when i went in for a meeting, they told me they actually decided to make everyone buy their supplies because they weren't able to get the supplies at the bulk rates they thought they could, mainly due to them not knowing exact student counts. But here is the thing, the teacher told the other parents that someone complained about the cost and now everyone needs to buy their supplies. So my poor wife had to stand around other parents for 2 weeks complaining about how some parent ruined it for everyone. The truth is the full day kindergarten requires a lot of art supplies and they want the kids to have crayola due to them lasting better than most brands, the cost from the supplier (where we happen to visit often) isn't much different from the stores, so the school screwed up and used me as their scape goat.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

By the way, I forgot to add we also need to pay about $150 a year extra on a mandatory music instructment rental for a mandatory music class, is that only in Richmond? Some music instrument are veen more but the cheapest one was like $150 a year. I had no choice but paid it because they said it was a mandatory. I do not really understand if it was mandatory why wasn't the instruemnt provided...or why can't they at least teach something cheaper like a harmonica or whatever LOL...my kids are already learning piano but teacher said it had to be a trimpet, flute or things like that...
And My supplies were not $25, it was $35 because we need to pay $10 for a planner, which you cannot buy yourself. It is a book the teachers use to communicate with parents and everyone is supposed to have the same one. Teachers use email and my kid's class even have a web site but we still need a new planner each year. Not a big deal but since a lot fo parents are saying they only paid $25 I want to let them know that it is not so for all schoools. I am not sure if it is only our school or richmond


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

i think they can legally ask for a deposit, not a rental, and even then they must provide alternatives to those who wish to not pay. Ie, instrument stays in class, waive deposit for those in need, etc. They cannot charge you money to make up for budget shortfalls to maintain their instruments.


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## Fish rookie (May 21, 2012)

neven said:


> i think they can legally ask for a deposit, not a rental, and even then they must provide alternatives to those who wish to not pay. Ie, instrument stays in class, waive deposit for those in need, etc. They cannot charge you money to make up for budget shortfalls to maintain their instruments.


No, there was no alternative provided. It is not a deposit, it is a full year rental fee. If we went to Tom Lee we had to pay almost double. We were also recommended to buy insurance against damamge/thief and so on. We also need to buy the book, and a kit ot clean up the instrument.
They do nto have any instrument to maintain because there is none provided by the school. We had to go to this shop and pay to rent the instruments. We were lucky we had the last one in the store or else we needed to go somewhere else to find it. My kid had a few choices of instrument then she picked first second choice and the teacher assigned one for her and then she needed to get that particular instrument. She needs to do it for 2 years and there is no choice. We need to pay again next year. If we have 2 kids in grade 5-6 then it would be $300 and so on.

I am wondering why they did not choose something cheaper becasue I am sure some family may find this a lot of money to pay. My kids are leanring piano and she is already at level 3. She also takes music theory and can read notes and so on. She loves the piano but not the trumpet but teacher said no piano....
Can they just do singing in music class? LOL
You mean you guys dont need to pay that?


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

and i am wrong about the instrument.

Schools cannot charge for courses, but they can charge for purchase/rental for instruments, trade tools, and non instructional material for specialty programs, so i stand corrected


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