# Lake Malawi, tank size?



## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm looking to start a Malawi tank, was curious as to how many of these species would be suitable for a 33g tank?

I would like to overstock + overfilter to keep away from territories. How many is too many?


----------



## ngo911 (May 19, 2010)

I am just about to start up my own Malawi tank, a 55g. Still need to find sand and rocks etc. I haven't decided on the final stocking either but I found this website very very helpful The Cichlid Recipe: African Cichlid Stocking Suggestions. It gives short descriptions of the different genera of most common African cichlids. They also have a compatibility chart found here African Cichlid Compatibility Chart v2.4


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

i have a 37g with 8 demasoni, 3 yellow labs, 4 aceii yellow tail (click to enlarge)
none are longer than 3 inches atm



(this pic shows 4 yellow labs, i gave one away)
the aggression is all between the demasoni pretty much, also between the male yellow lab (Homer, he has a 5 oclock shadow) and his 2 females.

also got a 10g growout tank for all the fry cuz the demasoni and yellow labs are spawning constantly, the aceii are offspring from ones i bred a while back and i no longer have the parents, they arent breeding yet.
theres 5 baby BN plecos in there too i'll prolly move a few up to the 37g once theyre bigger.

heres a good website i did most of my research on before setting it up: Cichlid-Forum Library -- cichlid articles, profiles, maps, projects, and videos


----------



## ngo911 (May 19, 2010)

Mferko, where did you get your rock? I know fish world has some but its a bit far for me.


----------



## clintgv (May 6, 2010)

I have a 40-45 gal tank. 4 yellow labs, 5 yellow tail aceis, 2 albino BN plecos. I might be adding a few demasoni's also when April gets them in . I was gonna say Fish World Langley has them for 1.40/lb (you can make it get cheaper by buying alot of rocks), but you said it was far for you ^^


----------



## budahrox (Apr 21, 2010)

IMHO
Malawis shouldn't be kept in anything smaller than a 55g with a 4ft footprint.
With careful consideration as to number of fish & species.
If the smaller tank size is the only option than I would suggest trying the Tanganyikan shell dwellers. They are very entertaining & thrive well in the smaller environment.
Cheers!!


----------



## onefishtwofish (Apr 21, 2010)

i agree with Don. even in a 4ft tank if you end up with more than 1 dominant natured fish they will between them terrorize all the other fish into the middle. im running into that with my victorians in their 48g. and it doesn't seem to be they r content with their cave, they come out and patrol a good 1.5 ft area. even worse if they r guarding young.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

you can run into aggression problems in an improperly stocked tank whether its large or small. and it should be noted there is HUGE size variance between different malawi cichlids, they are not all the same, far from it. from dwarf mbuna that only get 3-4 inches to the slightly larger peacocks to the bigger haps, malawi has a huge size variance. 4 feet is not needed for mbuna... it would be for haps like a red empress type thing.

imho just keep 1 male of each species and give him several females, and keep species that are very different looking so they dont fight between species.
its not hard it just takes some researching and the occasional fish may need to be returned if it turns out to be a subdominant male instead of female.



onefishtwofish said:


> i agree with Don. even in a 4ft tank if you end up with more than 1 dominant natured fish they will between them terrorize all the other fish into the middle. im running into that with my victorians in their 48g. and it doesn't seem to be they r content with their cave, they come out and patrol a good 1.5 ft area. even worse if they r guarding young.


i had that happen when i first started keeping malawi cichlids and i made the mistake of getting them from the mixed cichlid tanks at local stores, resulting in horrible m/f ratios within species. give the males lots of ladies to chase and they will be more content. the males are polygamous harem breeders and arent content with just one female, esp when shes already holding eggs and wants nothing to do with him.

currently i have a dominant pseudotropheus demasoni nesting side by side with a dominant yellow lab, they couldn't care less about each other. they just go off and try to find females of their own species to impress and bring back to the nest. in the meantime the aceii spend most of their time swimming as a group towards the top of the tank.

word of caution though, steer clear of melanochromis auratus, its aggressive as hell even in a 100g tank and since the males are blue and females are yellow they seem to be quite aggressive towards many other species.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

ngo911 said:


> Mferko, where did you get your rock? I know fish world has some but its a bit far for me.


its from IPU in richmond
their stock at the moment is terrible though, maybe call and find out when theyre getting more in
i think clingtv/clintgv knows of another place to get some.


----------



## budahrox (Apr 21, 2010)

Well I guess beating your chest about being able to keep Malawis in a smaller tank is the main issue here. Sounds like overcrowding & cramped quarters is the way to go although I have always thought that the best possible living conditions should be available to these fish we like to keep as pets. Obviously 20 odd yrs of keeping Africans has taught me wrong. Maybe pick up a 20g for your Africans & save that whopper of a 33g & do Aros or Pacus or maybe both. Don't forget to have a big filter & do lots of WC's. Then you can do anything you like, right????
LMFAO!!!
Cheers!!!


----------



## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

I sure hope that comment was not directed at me.


----------



## taureandragon76 (Apr 21, 2010)

Don't think that was towards you at all.


----------



## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

It wasn't neoh, ... I'll be back to check in on this thread later as I'm at work right now. Play nice guys!!


----------



## onefishtwofish (Apr 21, 2010)

i dont think he was either. I beleive he gave you good information as to what species of africans do best in a small tank. you helped me set up my 72 G bowfront. you saw how big some of the malawies get and quickly. even now just some months later I am almost ready to have to split the stock.


----------



## budahrox (Apr 21, 2010)

neoh said:


> I sure hope that comment was not directed at me.


My 1st comment & advice was for you.
Genuinely trying to help you with your plight.
Malawis *do not belong* in little tanks.
My 2nd comment was towards the other piss poor advice (IMO) you're being given. What decision you make is your own. Quality of life you want to provide is yours to establish. Personally, my Malawis thrive in a 6ft 140g. Tried a 4ft 90g but found that it just wasn't right. Pretty sure I wouldn't want to live in just my living room with 10 or 12 of my friends & family no matter how much the air was filtered & changed. just food for thought.


----------



## taureandragon76 (Apr 21, 2010)

I wouldn't put malawai's in any thing smaller than a 4' tank either.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

you can find some cookie cutter stocks on this site for different tank sizes
Aquarium Quick Reference Resources - Cichlid Keeping

dwarf mbuna have different tank requirements than an open water malawi hap aka "utaka" for obvious reasons, to address all malawi species and tank requirements together (there are over 800 malawi species with only about 300 of them currently described by ichthyologists) is a bit silly imho
33g is enough for some of the smaller malawi species, like the dwarf mbuna's
there are even malawi shellies if u want: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=900
they only get to be 2.4 inches long


----------



## clintgv (May 6, 2010)

I have mine in a 45gal and they have plenty of space no aggression whatsoever. And all I have in the tank is a few pots for caves (soon to be limestones from Fish World Langley). But they don't use it :S. Only when the females gets pregnant they use. Sometimes I feel like their lonely so I bought one fish each and now they school WAY better then before. I guess you just gotta pick the nice fish and not the trouble maker fish 

Depends how many fish you want to put in the 33gal. if you want to put alot, then you need a bigger tank but if you don't, then I'm pretty sure they can live in a 33gal.


----------



## Brisch (May 13, 2010)

cichlids don't school, I had a 33g with malawian fish in it and all i had was 3 fish and even then I felt bad. they are now in a 90g i feel a little better but I'd be happier if I could get them into a 130g or bigger..


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

Pseudotropheus sp. "Acei"

"They are equipped with typical Gephyrochromid cuspid-like teeth that are flat for removing epixlyic or epilithic algae from wood. In the lake, schools of 30-50 individuals surrounding a large log are not uncommon, however in the rocky areas; schools usually consist of 3-10 individuals... Males and females are most easily differentiated between by their behavior. Males tend to be more standoffish, the first to spread fins at intruders etc. The largest male in my tank is also the fattest. Females tend to be a little calmer, following the school quietly"

mine do, the correct term is probably shoaling though since they dont all turn together in unison, but they do love swimming in groups and hanging out in the top half of the tank while the yellow labs and demasoni stay down low, and sometimes if the first acei swims through a hole in the rocks, the others will go through the same hole behind it even if they were swimming off to the side of it before.

id love to get a bigger tank but we dont have room for it in the living room atm, we'll move soon enough and i can upgrade.


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

4' tank for smaller africans and a 6 footer plus for large africans.


----------



## jdm_03 (Apr 22, 2010)

budahrox said:


> My 1st comment & advice was for you.
> Genuinely trying to help you with your plight.
> Malawis *do not belong* in little tanks.
> My 2nd comment was towards the other piss poor advice (IMO) you're being given. What decision you make is your own. Quality of life you want to provide is yours to establish. Personally, my Malawis thrive in a 6ft 140g. Tried a 4ft 90g but found that it just wasn't right. Pretty sure I wouldn't want to live in just my living room with 10 or 12 of my friends & family no matter how much the air was filtered & changed. just food for thought.


I cannot agree more. especially with the piss poor advice...


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

Totally agree with both comments below. Kodak's comment can be looked upon the ideal view of what would be best for the fish. I personally keep them in a 6ft tank myself. I tried 4ft and wasn't too happy, so moved them to 6ft and I found the fish to be more happy. They also grew to a very big size (bigger than average)



budahrox said:


> My 1st comment & advice was for you.
> Genuinely trying to help you with your plight.
> Malawis *do not belong* in little tanks.
> My 2nd comment was towards the other piss poor advice (IMO) you're being given. What decision you make is your own. Quality of life you want to provide is yours to establish. Personally, my Malawis thrive in a 6ft 140g. Tried a 4ft 90g but found that it just wasn't right. Pretty sure I wouldn't want to live in just my living room with 10 or 12 of my friends & family no matter how much the air was filtered & changed. just food for thought.





kodak said:


> 4' tank for smaller africans and a 6 footer plus for large africans.


----------



## clintgv (May 6, 2010)

Brisch said:


> cichlids don't school, I had a 33g with malawian fish in it and all i had was 3 fish and even then I felt bad. they are now in a 90g i feel a little better but I'd be happier if I could get them into a 130g or bigger..


My aceis school together and my yellow labs join them lol. But like I said, my fish are nice with each other lol.


----------



## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

so what cichlids ARE good with 33g?


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

neoh said:


> so what cichlids ARE good with 33g?


Not much more than dwarf mbuna or Tanganyikan Shellies. I have seen 33g species only Saulosi tanks, but I dont think it would be a longterm arrangement. A 33g aquarium is just not suitable for many african cichlid species.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

Mferko said:


> you can find some cookie cutter stocks on this site for different tank sizes
> Aquarium Quick Reference Resources - Cichlid Keeping
> 
> dwarf mbuna have different tank requirements than an open water malawi hap aka "utaka" for obvious reasons, to address all malawi species and tank requirements together (there are over 800 malawi species with only about 300 of them currently described by ichthyologists) is a bit silly imho
> ...






kodak said:


> Not much more than *dwarf mbuna or* Tanganyikan *Shellies*. I have seen 33g species only Saulosi tanks, but I dont think it would be a longterm arrangement. A 33g aquarium is just not suitable for many african cichlid species.


there you go


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

I've kept a small colony (~12) of yellow labs in a 30Gallon with success.

I dont see why you cant keep a colony of demonsani cichlids (I haven't kept them, but size wise they are similar to the labs)


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

Smiladon said:


> I've kept a small colony (~12) of yellow labs in a 30Gallon with success.
> 
> I dont see why you cant keep a colony of demonsani cichlids (I haven't kept them, but size wise they are similar to the labs)


It's just not optimal, not even close. The way I truly feel about tank size in the hobby is a 6 foot tank is not even optimal. Most aquarists overstock, alot overfeed, the combination does not have a positive outcome for most in a set up of this size. Then one has to take into consideration the amount of rock added to the tank and the displacement of water. 33g tanks are mainly a stage of tank that is used in the grow out process of africans. A 33g is not a long term tank for an african cichlid hobbiest.

Demasoni are a dwarf cichlid but I think a colony would be to aggressive in a 33g longterm set up.

Ps. I have seen 4" labs and I do not believe an adult group would thrive under these conditions.


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

kodak said:


> It's just not optimal, not even close. The way I truly feel about tank size in the hobby is a 6 foot tank is not even optimal. Most aquarists overstock, alot overfeed, the combination does not have a positive outcome for most in a set up of this size. Then one has to take into consideration the amount of rock added to the tank and the displacement of water. 33g tanks are mainly a stage of tank that is used in the grow out process of africans. A 33g is not a long term tank for an african cichlid hobbiest.
> 
> Demasoni are a dwarf cichlid but I think a colony would be to aggressive in a 33g longterm set up.
> 
> Ps. I have seen 4" labs and I do not believe an adult group would thrive under these conditions.


agreed, theres some pretty large yellow labs in a little shop on kingsway near victoria, across from the church's chicken, and ipu in burnaby has some large aceii (5 inches roughly) that i saw there last week.
i think as juvies a 33g is fine but they will outgrow it, though itl take some time.

you can do what i did and line breed them too, keep a mating group till they get too large and then trade/sell them on here and raise their juvies as a mating group, repeat. the aceii i have are 2nd generation immigrants to my tank  the yellow labs/demasoni are already breeding regularly at < 3 inches

i'll keep doing this till i can get a much much larger tank, i want frontosa + compriceps eventually.


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

Mferko said:


> i want frontosa + compriceps eventually.


Just dont mix the two as adults, or juvie comps with larger fronts ...


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

kodak said:


> Just dont mix the two as adults, or juvie comps with larger fronts ...


ah, what about pearly white calvus's then with fronts? or is it better to just have the fronts with some shellies and perhaps a few brichardi?

i saw this pic on your site and thought they could work together, (the one below the pearly white calvus) are those juvie compriceps?








i love the brown compriceps pic 2nd from the top, your gallery is awesome.
what are the compriceps personalities like compared to the fronts?


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

Mferko said:


> maybe just fronts then w/ some shellies
> and maybe some brichardi?
> 
> what are the compriceps personalities like compared to the fronts?


The Fronts will eat anything they can fit in their mouths. They might not be so bad when they are young, but a large frontosa can take a good bite out of a good size fish, let alone swallow anything that fits in ones mouth.


----------



## neoh (Apr 22, 2010)

I think I'm just going to go with a nano reef instead -_-


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

Fronts and calvus/comps will work, but it's not a long term set up. 
Shellies are neat little fish and are great to watch.. If you do decide to keep shell dwellers you can set up a very attractive/natural looking set up and have the tank space to do so. I would not give up on them unless the shellies do not interest you.. If this is the case then I'd do the nano salty.


----------



## Smiladon (Apr 23, 2010)

kodak said:


> It's just not optimal, not even close. The way I truly feel about tank size in the hobby is a 6 foot tank is not even optimal. Most aquarists overstock, alot overfeed, the combination does not have a positive outcome for most in a set up of this size. Then one has to take into consideration the amount of rock added to the tank and the displacement of water. 33g tanks are mainly a stage of tank that is used in the grow out process of africans. A 33g is not a long term tank for an african cichlid hobbiest.
> 
> Demasoni are a dwarf cichlid but I think a colony would be to aggressive in a 33g longterm set up.
> 
> Ps. I have seen 4" labs and I do not believe an adult group would thrive under these conditions.


I guess this would also depend on how much water changes you do and the filtration that is in place. Maybe it wasn't a great advice after all since 
most people dont overfilter like me. I like 15 - 20x GPH for filtration.

I also "forgot" to mention that the labs I had were young adults (~3-3.5") and were doing great. I did move them to my 125 Gallon recently though (because I think like you a lot)


----------



## iKuik (Apr 24, 2010)

What would someone suggest for a 65 gallon tank then? (Not to steal the thread...)

I don't want the overstocked + overfiltered idea. More room, the better, no?


----------



## Brisch (May 13, 2010)

Good to here Mferko


----------



## Brisch (May 13, 2010)

iKuik said:


> What would someone suggest for a 65 gallon tank then? (Not to steal the thread...)
> 
> I don't want the overstocked + overfiltered idea. More room, the better, no?


you could do 10-20 fish in a 65, all depending on what fish you put in it. If your thinking peacocks I would do more then 10 but if your doing mbuna you could probably get away with 15-20 fish. Just my opinion


----------



## iKuik (Apr 24, 2010)

I feel like I want demasoni colony in there....


----------



## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

demasoni are awesome i love em


----------



## kodak (Apr 25, 2010)

That will work...


iKuik said:


> I feel like I want demasoni colony in there....


----------

