# Fishless cycle with ammonia, best ammonia source besides fish flakes?



## tabbee (Jun 2, 2012)

My coworker had given me some ammonia she had used to cycle her tanks. I ran out and picked up Value Priced ammonia, no phosphate, household ammonia, all purpose cleaner ( prepared for: Overwaitea Food Group). It does not suds up when shaken. Any thoughts on this for cycling? It does not have any list of what's in there- besides ammonia. Thanks in advance for any info.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I think you are on the right track. I have used cheap dollar store ammonia and it was fine. As usual, buyer beware. As an aside, I've stopped using this method and have just gone straight to using seeded media from a running tank. It's worked great for me and I've had no issues at all.


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## Tiwaz (May 5, 2011)

tony1928 said:


> I think you are on the right track. I have used cheap dollar store ammonia and it was fine. As usual, buyer beware. As an aside, I've stopped using this method and have just gone straight to using seeded media from a running tank. It's worked great for me and I've had no issues at all.


+1 if you have access to a cycled tank. If not that ammonia should be fine. Be sure to test Ph levels regularly as well so that a Ph crash doesn't kill off the cycle.


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## J'sRacing (Apr 25, 2012)

well, they will be testing their tanks anyways to monitor when the cycle ends so i don't think thats a big issue.


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## Tiwaz (May 5, 2011)

Its amazing how many people only monitor ammonia & NitrItes until they see a change and then start testing NitrAtes. I figure buy a master kit and monitor everything you can, but that's just me.


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## tabbee (Jun 2, 2012)

Luckily my coworker still had more ammonia so I've brought home a bit of that ~ thank you for the replies. I did a search on that brand and it was 50/50 whether to use it. Someone said it had surfactants and it was fine to use, just throroughly clean the tank after. Someone else said not to use it....

I've got an API Master test kit on the way, using API 5 in 1 test strips ($25 for 25 tests - ouch) and the Nutrifin ammonia test kit, I really like doing these tests. Borrowed a Nutrifin mini master kit for tonight and will be able to see how the nitrates compare with this kit to the other I've been doing, which is a bit hard to gauge.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

If it has surfactants, absolutely do not use it. That's like putting detergent into the tank.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm with Tony. Detergent is a surfactant. It won't be good for any creatures in there. If they can't find anything else, just throw a frozen piece of fish or prawn in it and let it rot. I would suggest the other source of ammonia readily available, but I wouldn't do it myself, so wouldn't suggest it for anyone else either....


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## Luke78 (Apr 24, 2010)

This is a very good point for beginners and seasoned aquarium keepers.Why invest so much of everything and have no clue whats going on behind the scenes sort of speak.Another point i would like to add is where is the PATIENCE? Hobbyists will have so much time later on to add stock accordingly. A proper cycle need weeks (6+) to form enough stabilizing colonies to keep all aquatic life safe.As mentioned already seeded media is an option, another is to introduce aquatic plants(some species help more than others).



Tiwaz said:


> Its amazing how many people only monitor ammonia & NitrItes until they see a change and then start testing NitrAtes. I figure buy a master kit and monitor everything you can, but that's just me.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

You an also use
Miracle grow for your garden. The pink stuff and cycle within 18 days. 
No I'm not
Crazy. Lol. I'll try find te studies . It works. Think about it it has all the nitrogen etc.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

April said:


> You an also use
> Miracle grow for your garden. The pink stuff and cycle within 18 days.
> No I'm not
> Crazy. Lol. I'll try find te studies . It works. Think about it it has all the nitrogen etc.


That's because miracle gro has ammonia based nitrogen. Good idea. Never thought of that. It will work for sure, but may induce algae so make sure large water changes take place after the initial cycle.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

I dont get the point... fill the tank go get a bottle of seachem stability and a bottle of sea chem prime, grip it and rip it, why would you want a empty box of water for months on end, do major water changes and get it done already, by the time you have done 4 big water changes in the first month your tank is perfect , the proof is in the pudding all my tanks are flawless and i set them up that day next day fish are in, monitor your stuff and do big water changes... 



adding dollar store ammonia good grief guys its not that hard. seachem people its the business


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## Tiwaz (May 5, 2011)

The point is to have a stable system for your fish to go into. Not to stress them while the cycle happens.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I've used Stability and it does work as long as you are diligent. Using seeded media just seemed like the easiest option to offer up. Instantly cycled tank.


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## Tiwaz (May 5, 2011)

I agree that seeded material is the easiest way to go. I have used Cycle in the past and never had issues, I also did an ammonia based fishless cycle on my 55 last year. I found it interesting to monitor the bacteria growth as the cycle happened while I tried to sort out the stocking. Of course when I did that tank I didn't have access to seeded material. To each their own as long as water changes are kept up and fish don't suffer.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Tiwaz said:


> To each their own as long as water changes are kept up and fish don't suffer.


I think that's the key point. There's no harm in even putting 2 fish in a 90 gallon to get the cycle starting as long as you're monitoring. But the problem comes up when people put in Stability, BioSpira, Cycle, or whatever and then fully load up a 90 gallon with 10 discus. Then you have problems, and so do the fish.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

if your putting 10 discus in a new 90 you have larger issues...
and obviouslly taking water or sponges out of your other tanks if you have one running is a great start, i usually use my 180 to fill smaller tanks that way i know the water is legit, i think the whole adding ammonia from the dollar store is a weird way to get a result, this isnt the 60's we have actual chemicals and water conditioners now that make a right now system a reality,


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

macframalama said:


> if your putting 10 discus in a new 90 you have larger issues...


Why? I have 9 in a 100 gallon right now, with tetras and plecos. I can't imagine any discus keeper having a problem with 10 in a 90. Can you explain your reasoning?


















And this is happening in the tank:


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

no no no i mean throwing 10 discus in a tank that was just filled., i know you can house more what im saying is a brand new tank shouldnt have 10 of anything in it...especially in the first month using seachem prime and stability or not.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I see. Thanks for clarifying. Unfortunately, I've seen people do it and it's sad.


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## mdwflyer (Jan 11, 2011)

Good discussion, just for my own clarification, or education.

Taking water from a running tank and putting it in a brand new tank. Does it do anything??


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

mdwflyer said:


> Taking water from a running tank and putting it in a brand new tank. Does it do anything??


Nope, other than the fact you're adding whatever miniscule amount of organic waste that's in it. What you're after is anything that bacteria can colonize on: rocks, substrate, plants, filter media.

One of the best ways that Tom Barr advocates is to do a deep gravel vac of a mature tank and settle out the detritus, decant off the water and place that below the new substrate in the new tank. Of course this relies on the old tank being pathogen and parasite free in the first place, as it would in any seeding scenario.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

or remove one sponge from a used running tank, and placing it in your new tanks filter, and putting a new one in the "old tanks" filter, and i disagree using legit water from one tank to the next is a perfectly viable way or jumpstarting a tank , i literally do it all the time, if your placing the "old water" in a perfectly clean "new tank" its doing nothing but adding beneficial bacteria and good water parameters to your "new tank" , 

if your up on your water changes it shouldnt matter, keeping fish is WORK 

all that being said i have been over to multiple houses and seen there tanks and they do nothing to them ever, the only water changes they get are from evaporation and somehow there fish survive , so its all relative, healthy fish need good water ,however you get the result is up to you


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

What "old" water has is water, dissolved solids and gases. What water has out of the tap is no organics, minimal dissolved solids, chlorine (at least in Metro Van), and excessive gases. By circulating the water around, you degas it, and if you add buffers, the TDS will be the same in both, minus the organics, with the exception that the old water may have some depleted elements in it, like Ca for instance. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using old water, but the benefits are only that it has no chlorine, is degassed and at the right temperature. After all, that old water came out of the same tap as the new water, so the only new things in it are fish wastes and any chemicals you add to it. So the discussion is that with a new tank you might as well start with clean, warm, dechlorinated water and seeded media, not don't use old water.

The only time old water would be bad is if there are pathogens, like the waterborne phase of ich, or if the tank has old tank syndrome, which when added to the new tank overloads it with dissolved solids and high nitrates. We do water changes to remove nitrates, and this is even done during the fishless cycle. So if you're not doing a fishless cycle, and just managing the ammonia and wastes with large water changes, the first thing that will happen is that the old water is removed anyway. With seeded media, the bacteria is not removed with a water change.


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

I started using household ammonia to cycle tanks back when bacteria in a bottle was a novelty and it needed to be refridgerated. I consider it old school now, but I would still use it over goldfish and feeders to cycle a tank. Seachem Stability works really well if you need a clean source of bacteria. Ammonia is still useful - I don't know of any cheaper way of keeping filters cycled to stock a full load of fish right away than ammonia.

Miracle Grow sounds interesting - the longest phase of fishless cycling is producing nitrites and maybe Miracle Grow supplies the nitrites right away.


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