# gh ph



## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

any thoughts on how high one can adjust the gh before it affects raises the ph? My ph is in the neighbourhood of 6.4 to 6.6 and I don't want it higher but I think I have noticed that in another tank of mine that the fish have seemed to thrive with a gh that right now is up around 200 ppm. The ph in that tank is 7.4 ish but I can't have it that high in the amazon tank. I am using equilibrium.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

gH doesn`t affect pH.
kH does.

I think confusion arises from the fact that natural waters commonly contain calcium and magnesium bicarbonates/carbonates as major constituents.These contribute both gH and kH.

eg. Calcium chloride will raise gH but not kH
Potassium carbonate will raise kH but not gH.
(I use both to remineralize RO water)


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

kelownaguy said:


> gH doesn`t affect pH.
> kH does.
> 
> I think confusion arises from the fact that natural waters commonly contain calcium and magnesium bicarbonates/carbonates as major constituents.These contribute both gH and kH.
> ...


that is what I thought, and it may be true, but

i can affect the ph with equilibrium which is supposed to affect gh only. I made my 6.4 tap water jump to 7.4 with a couple tablespoons in a 40 litre bucket, no other additives asside from prime. I was doing a water change.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

rickwaines said:


> that is what I thought, and it may be true, but
> 
> i can affect the ph with equilibrium which is supposed to affect gh only. I made my 6.4 tap water jump to 7.4 with a couple tablespoons in a 40 litre bucket, no other additives asside from prime. I was doing a water change.


I had heard somewhere that Equilibrium can raise KH slightly as well but I don't see any ingredient that would contribute to it. did you measure the KH before and after adding it?


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

rickwaines said:


> that is what I thought, and it may be true, but
> 
> i can affect the ph with equilibrium which is supposed to affect gh only. I made my 6.4 tap water jump to 7.4 with a couple tablespoons in a 40 litre bucket, no other additives asside from prime. I was doing a water change.


Are you sure the pH change isn`t because of co2 degassing?

IMO,pH measurements of unaerated tap water are useless.
(paticularly w/unbuffered low kH water like you have in the lower mainland)

It is quite possible that equilibrium has some unlisted carbonate/other impurities that raise kH/alkalinity/pH.I haven`t tested that yet,but,I will.

Prime may be a factor.I can`t find any good info on how hyposulfites affect pH.


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

I imagine that there must have been a cause unrelated to the equilibrium then. It is great to get your thoughts. The water had been in a big blue tub for a few days. I didn't test it before the addition of the equilibrium because I have done that many times before. So I tested the gh and ph before I put it in the tank. I imagine there must have been a flaw in the testing. I will become more diligent and try the experiment again.
Thanks all for the info.


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

Rastapus said:


> I had heard somewhere that Equilibrium can raise KH slightly as well but I don't see any ingredient that would contribute to it. did you measure the KH before and after adding it?


no I didn't test the kh before. I will try that next time. I do a lot of testing but I am not always the most scientific in my approach.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

I did a liitle experiment w/Seachem Equilibrium.I dissolved about a teaspoon in ONE litre of water to make a (probably) saturated solution.

Aerated RO water, intial TDS 3ppm,intial pH 6.00+/-0.10

After 1 teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium:
TDS 690ppm, pH 7.68+/-0.10,kH 2.5 degrees,gH 50 degress.

So in conclusion,Seachem Equilibrium raises kH(and therefore pH) 0.05 degrees for every 1 degree gH.Not much,but,enough to be significant if you have none to begin with and you desire a highish gH.

I don`t plan on buying any more when my bottle runs out.
My objection is to the very high potassium content rather than its kH contribution,though.

I will be brewing my own inspired by this:
James' Planted Tank - Re-mineralising RO Water
Don`t think I`ll go quite as low on the kH.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

kelownaguy said:


> I did a liitle experiment w/Seachem Equilibrium.I dissolved about a teaspoon in ONE litre of water to make a (probably) saturated solution.
> 
> Aerated RO water, intial TDS 3ppm,intial pH 6.00+/-0.10
> 
> ...


So I assume your KH is 0 in Kelowna?


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

As close as, in the RO water.3 ppm TDS.

Straight well water is another story.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

kelownaguy said:


> I don`t plan on buying any more when my bottle runs out.
> My objection is to the very high potassium content rather than its kH contribution,though.


If you tank is planted, why wouldn't you want potassium? I used to have to dose K2SO4 before I got equilibrium and now I don't. Saves on one more thing to remember to dose.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

2wheelsx2 said:


> If you tank is planted, why wouldn't you want potassium? I used to have to dose K2SO4 before I got equilibrium and now I don't. Saves on one more thing to remember to dose.


I want potassium.

I just don`t want the excessive 40ppm K per 3 degrees gH that equilibrium gives.
That`s 80 ppm for 6 degrees.(for only the K component)
IMO,all that unnecessary extra solute affects osmotic balance adversely for soft water species.
(excessive K can interfere w/Mg and trace element uptake too)

Average Orinoco river TDS is on the order of 25ppm!

Equilibrium is 44% K2SO4.
The ferric sulfate addition seems pretty useless too.
Makes more sense to dose K seperately from gH to me.
K2SO4 is a lot cheaper than equilibrium,too


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ah, I see, if you want to roll your own, any commercial product is expensive, but if you why raise your GH to 6 if you want to keep TDS low? Not trying to be facetious, just trying to follow your reasoning. K2SO4 is cheap, but that's only one component. I also dose Ca Mg, and iron chelate. Based on the GB price we had, it was almost as cheap to get Equilibrium as an AIO then 5 lbs of each product for me to get the bulk price.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

K would be too high at gH 6.
Maybe at gH 3 too.

MgSO4 and CaSO4,CaCl2 are cheap too.

Goal is to have as low a TDS as possible while retaining adequete nutrients/kH.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

Here. have a read at this. don't feel like retyping everything.

http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...otal-dissolved-solids-also-my-initials-10780/

SO4 will raise pH caused by ion exchange.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

EDGE said:


> Here. have a read at this. don't feel like retyping everything.
> 
> http://www.bcaquaria.com/forum/fres...otal-dissolved-solids-also-my-initials-10780/
> 
> SO4 will raise pH caused by ion exchange.


Not sure how the discussion of ion exchange resins is relavent.

SO4 and sulphur are widely used in agriculture to LOWER pH.

You can do the next experiment.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

kelownaguy said:


> Not sure how the discussion of ion exchange resins is relavent.
> 
> SO4 and sulphur are widely used in agriculture to LOWER pH.
> 
> You can do the next experiment.


Neither sulphur nor SO4 lowers pH. The reactions taking place in agriculture/horticulture is not taking place subaqueously, so is also irrelevant to this discussion.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

When I add K2SO4 in BC tap water (coming out at 6.00 pH), the pH goes up...

Sulfur is not reacting with anything to create sulfuric acid. SO4 is an anion which causes the pH to go up. I use pH/eC meter to do the testing.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

We are better off asking Seachem the chemical reaction with their combination of chemicals in equilibrium and what is the caused for there to be a raise in pH.


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## rickwaines (Jan 2, 2011)

such interesting contributions!
thank you all. Some of it is over my head but I am glad to know that what I experienced, however unscientifically, is more or less accurate in relation to equilibrium

R


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Neither sulphur nor SO4 lowers pH. The reactions taking place in agriculture/horticulture is not taking place subaqueously, so is also irrelevant to this discussion.


Well,not really.

You can calculate the pH of any of the popular nutrients using the ChemBuddy pH calculator.

pH calculator - program for pH calculation and acid base titration curves calculation

If I did things right,a 90 ppm solution of K2SO4(the amount in a 3GH shot of Equilibirium) has a pH of 7.01.Ten times as much has a pH of 7.08.
(Somebody plese check my numbers.The oxygen atmosphere was still forming last time I had a chem class.)

Whether K2SO4 raises or lowers pH depends on your starting point.
Hence the use of sulfates in agriculture to counter alkaline conditions.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

EDGE said:


> When I add K2SO4 in BC tap water (coming out at 6.00 pH), the pH goes up...
> 
> Sulfur is not reacting with anything to create sulfuric acid. SO4 is an anion which causes the pH to go up. I use pH/eC meter to do the testing.


Not sure what you mean by "BC" tap water.
I have BC tap water too.Mine is much different than yours.(150ppm)

pH effect of K2SO4 depends on your starting pH(see the other post)

Impurities may be a factor too.I don`t know about yours,but,my K2SO4 is pink! Yikes!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

kelownaguy said:


> Well,not really.
> 
> You can calculate the pH of any of the popular nutrients using the ChemBuddy pH calculator.
> 
> ...


"Sulfate sulfur is usually contained in mixed fertilizers. This form will not acidify soils."

Taken from here. Lowering soil pH - General discussion

Not only that, but you have are not going to create an acidic condition by adding a salt to water. By your suggestion, I should be able to add NaCl to create HCL and acidify soils also, and I don't think that's the case.


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## kelownaguy (Jan 1, 2011)

Try the calculator and see for yourself.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Let's just agree to disagree. This discussion is not helping the OP, but applying a calculation to a non-existent process doesn't make it right. As a point of reference, I'm married to chemist who has been working doing research for 12 years and can do titrations in her sleep.


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## EDGE (Aug 24, 2010)

BC tap, greater Vancouver, BC. did not look that you are from Ok falls and not lower mainland. Rick is in Vancouver. Our water comes out at 0 gH, 0 kH, 30 micro Siemens, 6 pH for the better part of the year. There is not a lot for SO4 to react with to create sulfuric acid. 

my K2SO4 is pink too. agricultural solution grade.


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