# African vs South American?



## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I have ordered a 160 gallon tank that should arrive just in time for Christmas!!! I really shouldn't have, but whatever, I am pretty excited about it. Unfortunately I have to share it with my son, who has some very definite ideas about it. And he thinks he knows more about fish than I do, which is in fact true but beside the point. I already told him that piranhas are absolutely out, definitely. I like a planted tank, the symbiotic plant and fish thing. And colourful, busy little fish. Max likes big fish, catfish, angels, discus, and pacus (also out). I am thinking African while Max is thinking South American. I have seen lots of African set ups, but no South American ones. Hmm, maybe that says something. Has anyone done a South American tank? Any opinions on the way to go? Any help would be appreciated! Btw since Max is 9 I think I will be doing most of the maintenance.


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## kim86 (Sep 5, 2012)

There's some wicked South American cichlids you could do with that size of a tank. They get a lot bigger than Africans for the most part, so you probably couldn't have as many in there as you would with Africans. Africans also come in a wider variety of colors, and you can't really beat Haps and Peacocks when talking about color


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Can you give me some examples for SA fish?

Max was wondering about barbs with SA cichlids.


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

African IMO you can't beat the variety and colour of an all male hap n peacock tank with maybe a group of yellow labs. Add on an army of all types of bnp's and then a group of petricolas. You have colour, variety, sizeable predatory haps for max, then you can see breeding with labs. Bnp's on algae control and petricolas to clean up the mess lol. 

I'm sure you will enjoy whatever the choice but if you're thinking old world look up jbyoung he has an awesome planted african tank. 

Also ipu had a monster tank with new world and nows switching to Africans...... Not sayin just saying lol 

I'll be following this setup!


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Yes I checked out the jbyoung tank and it is stunning. He must have a way with plants bc I have heard that result is not typical with Africans. I have been browsing tank journals on this site and have seen a few cool SA ones with smaller fish, lemon tetra schools, etc. Definitely lots of plecos and petricolas, my new petri is my favourite in my current tank. I guess the trick will be to start with the largest fish and see what can go with it. Luckily we have plenty of time to decide and won't just be adding random fish! Thanks for the suggestions!


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## Momobobo (Sep 28, 2010)

Heh, I personally love SA fish over all others. Kinda regret switching to Asian aggressive community. You can check out my old tank journals for a geophagus centric tank. My older journals (which are linked in each journal) have more cichlids:dither ratios.

I just love the natural beauty of South Americans, I'll probably get some hate from the african crowd but I find a lot of africans rather gaudy.  :lol: :bigsmile:


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

Momobobo said:


> I find a lot of africans rather gaudy.  :lol: :bigsmile:


Ok Bobby I'll let u teach me math and physics but I'll be buying u a dictionary and thesaurus because instead of gaudy I'm sure you meant strikingly superior. Unless the african was gaudy then the new world would be opposite making them drab dull modest or plain? No lol I kid I kid, sa and ca have subtle beauty.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

I've gone from African to SA back to African and now back to SA. They are both great. Check out youtube as there's tons of examples of what you can do. I also love how the ADG group does their aquascaping. Check it out. Aquarium Design Group custom aquarium design installation and service in Houston Texas Simplicity is beautiful.


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm surprised that Justin(jbyoung) has not jumped on this yet :lol: 
I guess it really depends on your preference.
If you are looking for something colorful and similar to saltwater, then African tank is way to go. If you want more natural and simple,then SA is for you.. JMO!


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

jhj0112 said:


> I'm surprised that Justin(jbyoung) has not jumped on this yet :lol:
> I guess it really depends on your preference.
> If you are looking for something colorful and similar to saltwater, then African tank is way to go. If you want more natural and simple,then SA is for you.. JMO!


Hahaha. Im back to working while at work so Ive been slipping on my Bcaquaria time jhj0112. Thanks for the shout out too Vancitycam.

African's or South American's???? Hands down African's  Ive owned so many different fish over the years and my by far favorite have been African's. They have the best colors out of all tropical fish and always migrate too the top when you walk by staring at you hoping to be fed. They'd literally eat 10 times a day. Its not unusual to get splashed when you walk by my tank. They can be aggressive but breed easily. Males show the best colors in most species. They originate from 3 lakes in Africa. The most common African's are from Lake Malawi. There are 3 species from that lake. They can be broken down into 2 groups. MBUNAS and Haplochromis (HAPS) , Aulonocaras (PEACOCKS). Mbunas tend to occupy the rocky areas in the lake. The Haps and Peacocks tend to occupy open water. This plays a factor in deciding tank layout. Mbunas do better in groups of 1 male 3-5 females. Most Mbunas show nice color even the females. Haps and Peacocks generally only males show color. This is why people have all male tanks. Like mine 

Now when you read online about African's you will get a lot of mixed reviews on water chemistry. Yes, Lake Malawi has a high PH/KH/GH but Ive found my fish do very well at a PH of 7.3. I do add a few products to help mimic there lake but Ive found stability to be more important than numbers

One last upside to African's is the more the merrier. When you over stock the tank. It helps spread the aggression. I have around 40 fish in my 120 with no issues. Lots of filtration and water changes are a must but worth it in the end.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

I prefer South American fish. Don't get me wrong, African cichlids has lots of color. But they look pretty much the same (the malawi and victorian groups). 

If you are interested at building a biotope tank, hands down South American. There are so many different shape, size, personality, that you can have most of them in a single big tank. It is like taking a snapshot of a section of the Amazon river and place that section in your tank.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

I've had both SA and African and prefer African not just for their colour, but their behaviour too. I have a mbuna tank which is full of rockwork, mbuna, petricolas, and some bnps. The mbuna are all colourful and fun to watch - they chase each other around, breed frequently, and also "joust" for dominance. I have not had much success with plants though in my mbuna tank =P

SA can be cool too if you mix geophagus, angels, mid size cichlids (cupido and keyhole are a good size), and a large group of tetras. You get a lot of variety and plants will flourish in a tank like this. I just personally find the fish themselves aren't as entertaining as African =P


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

Count me in on the SA side. Africans (and by that I mean Rift Valley fish. West Africa is a whole different set of species; which might be fun to look into if you want to do something slightly different) are obviously very striking to look at; but the South Americans are pretty too. More options for a community tank too (rather than a big collection of cichlids); tetras, pencilfish, cories, plecos, cichlids (a lot of smaller ones work well in a community). In a 160 you could do a massive swarm of smaller fish plus a few somewhat larger 'character' fish (be advised though... most fish will eat any fish that will fit in their mouths; so no neons with angels)... which would keep both you and your son happy. 

The water chemistry on the coast is better for SA fish as well. With Africans you will almost certainly have to add things to your water (soft water will stress Africans... generally you'd expect them to have poorer health and reduced lifespans compared to fish kept in harder water); it's a little harder to keep stable doing that (and costs a bit more too).


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## DBam (Aug 9, 2010)

SA. I've owned some of the popular African cichlids over the years and gave them up each time; I found they follow the same prototypical size, shape and general behavior. With SA I can have a variety of fish that occupy different niches. I can add and remove plants easily. I can acclimatize most any other species that don't require extremely hard, alkaline water. If I was running multiple tanks and wanted something totally different, maybe then I'd start an African tank but in the meantime I'll keep my SA tank.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all the great info and suggestions! I have read a lot about African fish on this site and was hoping for some great reasons/arguments to convince Max that my idea was the way to go. Instead some of you have convinced me that Max was right again (sigh...) and so we are going South American. Max was ecstatic, and has already bought (with his own money) a beautiful Peruvian angel from Alex at IPU. Hey, it beats spending $ on Pokemon cards and Trash Packs! The angel will be going into the 55 gallon next week until the new tank gets set up over the Christmas break. Now it's back to the internet for me to see if I can catch up with my son in knowledge of SA fishes!!


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

I bet max can't wait to get that tank going and start stocking it remember we need pics on bca


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Pics for sure, and a tank journal! It is going to be a great project for Max, plus he will learn about photography and journal writing/blogging. I will show him this thread and hopefully he will be inspired to share in a tank journal. We are super excited. I am so happy to get back into this hobby, with someone to share it with this time around. And this site is so great. I love how everyone on here is so supportive, positive, and encouraging. And so interested in each other's tanks! It's awesome, and makes this hobby even more fun. Thanks everyone!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Your first post suggested you wanted a natural looking planted tank. That pretty much rules out African. Of course people have done it successfully but there's no real life analogy, except in very specific lakes or streams with very specific fish. Plus with the pH the plants need to thrive it's much easier to go SA. Can you do it with African, sure you can. I've even seen CO2 injected African tanks but it's unnatural looking. So IMO, if you must have plants, don't go African.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

That seems to be the general consensus, though jbyoung has a really natural looking African set up with plants. I looked at the hardscapes on the link sent to me on this thread by tony1928, and they are so elegant and serene, so I was very temped to ditch the plant idea. But we have decided to go SA for other reasons.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

maxandjenny said:


> That seems to be the general consensus, though jbyoung has a really natural looking African set up with plants. I looked at the hardscapes on the link sent to me on this thread by tony1928, and they are so elegant and serene, so I was very temped to ditch the plant idea. But we have decided to go SA for other reasons.


Even with SA cichlids you have to work hard to keep the plants in there as they dig and will eat some of the plants. If you bring in plant eating species like silver dollars you would have to forget the plant idea for sure.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

We are going to keep that in mind when we select the plants. I have developed an unexpected fondness for bottom fish. Just rescaped my tank last night to better suit the petricola and bnp. I like the various java fern, Anubis, with the bonus that they won't be uprooted and look good even when small. Probably also going to add some Amazon swords and Val. Keeping it simple. With the first tank we went a bit wild with the plants while waiting for the cycle so we could add fish. Gave me a good idea of what works in my low tech tank. Plus I read that Cories don't do well with added co2, and I really like my Cories!


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I have cories in my CO2 injected 125 and lots of big plecos, but it is a delicate balance. I have lost a few cories this summer when the room temperature climbed (I don't have AC).


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

People say African's need special water to survive. Ive found that to be false. I even setup an African tank at my buddies to prove this theory wrong. Also out of all the LFS I've visited none are keeping their African tanks water any different than the rest of their tanks. Most are on systems so changing a few tanks water isn't an option. Most African's have never seen their home lake. They aren't wild caught. All the ones local are captive bred. I haven't seen any F1's or F2 locally except at Petland Poco. They have been bred over and over again in regular water so they know any different. That's my opinion from what Ive learned. It bothers me when people make them out to be some super hard fish to keep care of. They simply aren't and more people would buy them if they weren't discouraged by others. Discus fish have the same reputation and made out to be so hard to keep. Yet lots of people are successful with them and not changing the water daily or 4 times a week. 

No matter what fish you buy, you will need to buffer the water and add some products to it. BC's water is so different than most of the worlds adding buffers is important. I add more products to my 25g planted tank than I do to my African tank. 

SA are neat but they also can destroy plants depending on the species. African's will do the same. Some how it has worked for me. Its been a lot of trial and error. Sometimes I think I have too many plants but everyone seems to like my tank.

PS. Petricolas are my favorite. I have 18 of them and they are considered African's


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

jbyoung00008 said:


> Discus fish have the same reputation and made out to be so hard to keep. Yet lots of people are successful with them and not changing the water daily or 4 times a week.


That's an over generalization. A few people have kept them successfully this way but only fully adult fish and in special cases. And most will tell you to grow the biggest most robust fish the fastest you have to change a lot of water. You can see that in the grow out contests of Rick. No one is winning a grow out without changing water at least 3x a week.

Not knocking you but I've had discus for 5 years now and every time I go on a trip and don't change water for a week I can see the deterioration in the slime coat and the clarity of the eyes of the fish when I get back.

Some people try to make things complicated with UV and Ozone and plants and all kinds of stuff but in the end they go back to changing water for discus. The threads are all there on Simplydiscus. It's pretty much irrefutable. Once again, can you make it work, sure some can. Can everyone? Nope.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

2wheelsx2 said:


> That's an over generalization. A few people have kept them successfully this way but only fully adult fish and in special cases. And most will tell you to grow the biggest most robust fish the fastest you have to change a lot of water. You can see that in the grow out contests of Rick. No one is winning a grow out without changing water at least 3x a week.
> 
> Not knocking you but I've had discus for 5 years now and every time I go on a trip and don't change water for a week I can see the deterioration in the slime coat and the clarity of the eyes of the fish when I get back.
> 
> Some people try to make things complicated with UV and Ozone and plants and all kinds of stuff but in the end they go back to changing water for discus. The threads are all there on Simplydiscus. It's pretty much irrefutable. Once again, can you make it work, sure some can. Can everyone? Nope.


A few is 3 to 4 so I will disagree that I over shot by saying LOTS. There are plenty of discus people that live around here or in the world that aren't on this site or others sites and don't do 4 water changes a week. I understand changing the water often make them grow faster but not everyone who has discus is competing for the nicest 1.

Ive seen your tanks. They are beautiful and so are your discus. If I recall correct they are W/C? If they are than yes I agree they may want the best water possible but do local bred really need the same water conditions?

I agree but instead of telling people something wont work, I prefer to encourage them to try. The more people trying it, the more knowledge we gain. I never tried Africans before because of the reputation the had. My tanks been running for 2.5 years now. My oldest and nicest fish has been in the tank since day one and is flourishing. He's tank boss


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## Rockman (May 19, 2013)

jbyoung00008 said:


> I agree but instead of telling people something wont work, I prefer to encourage them to try. The more people trying it, the more knowledge we gain. I never tried Africans before because of the reputation the had. My tanks been running for 2.5 years now. My oldest and nicest fish has been in the tank since day one and is flourishing. He's tank boss


Trying things is never a bad idea. However, I think it's important that people know they're running an experiment rather than acting on tried and true advice. Personally I try to be a bit conservative in my advice online ('cause I get a good number of things wrong when I'm experimenting; although it sometimes takes a while to figure that out).

In this case, Africans are hardwater fish. There are some good reasons why hard water fish _shouldn't_ do as well in soft water (they lack the adaptations that softwater fish do to deal with the higher osmotic pressure). Of course, your tank does look awesome; so what you're saying might be true. However, I don't think you have the uptime to prove that yet (you'd need to look at the disease/mortality rates over 5 or 10 years to really say anything about how well that works); hardness is more of a long term factor: You don't normally have fish keel over dead due to low water hardness... but it would have more subtle effects. On average they'd have poorer growth, a higher susceptibility to disease and ultimately lower lifespan. You wouldn't necessarily be able to tell for quite a while.

Anyway... point being that standard advice is Africans need hard water. Anything else is gonna void your warranty.


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

Rockman said:


> Anyway... point being that standard advice is Africans need hard water. Anything else is gonna void your warranty.


Not sure about a warranty but I keep my african with nothing more then clean water with dechlorinator and a pinch of salt. I'd hardly say that's buffered or anything special. Unless u got wilds a tank raised fish needs stability that's all. Either way u go it won't be a perfect biotope. It's all personal choice and looks like max chose variety in shapes and sizes not bright colours.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Vancitycam said:


> Not sure about a warranty but I keep my african with nothing more then clean water with dechlorinator and a pinch of salt. I'd hardly say that's buffered or anything special. Unless u got wilds a tank raised fish needs stability that's all. Either way u go it won't be a perfect biotope. It's all personal choice and looks like max chose variety in shapes and sizes not bright colours.


Cam, so let me get this straight LOL. You have a breeding group of beautiful Lwanda Peacocks that breed all the time for you and they are in nothing but regular tap water. How could this be??? That's impossible. These fish need Lake Malawi water to survive and be healthy. LOL. Sarcasm  If they are alive in 5 years we can settle this argument once and for all.

My fire blue hap is 3 years old and Ive been told by a few he is the nicest African they've seen in person. Since I do buffer slightly and add cichlid salt to my water, he can't be in the experiment but Im hoping he lives 10 years. That be awesome and he will prove my point 

It seems the older generation thinks different than the younger. Time for the new. Ive told my dad this many times. LOL.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

jbyoung00008 said:


> A few is 3 to 4 so I will disagree that I over shot by saying LOTS. There are plenty of discus people that live around here or in the world that aren't on this site or others sites and don't do 4 water changes a week. I understand changing the water often make them grow faster but not everyone who has discus is competing for the nicest 1.
> 
> Ive seen your tanks. They are beautiful and so are your discus. If I recall correct they are W/C? If they are than yes I agree they may want the best water possible but do local bred really need the same water conditions?
> 
> I agree but instead of telling people something wont work, I prefer to encourage them to try. The more people trying it, the more knowledge we gain. I never tried Africans before because of the reputation the had. My tanks been running for 2.5 years now. My oldest and nicest fish has been in the tank since day one and is flourishing. He's tank boss


Yeah, but in the same vein, Wedge headed large eye discus aren't really what discus should look like. They should look like most wilds, with full fat bodies and a high body to eye ratio. Surviving isn't thriving in my book.

And no, not all my fish are wilds. My 2 oldest discus are Cuipera X that are from Forrest via April and I've had them this whole 5 years. So they were tank grown with daily wc from Malaysia. In reality all the captive bred discus undergo massive daily wc as you can see from various vids on Youtube. That's how the fish farms do it. In my experience, they are actually less hardy than the wc fish, partly due to selective breeding.

I also agree on experimentation. But I experiment myself. I don't give advice that I haven't tried. Not that I would not suggest it, but I would discuss the caveats and certainly disclose it if I haven't tried it. And another thing to consider is your livestock. They are living beings so experimentation sometimes has consequences, such as overdosing Excel stressing the fish.

I am sure there are plenty of people doing things against the norm. I see it all the time as an ex-riding instructor. Students come in and tell me their fathers have ridden for years with brain buckets and no gear and they're still alive. But I ride in a full face helmet and full leathers on a modern 120 HP sportbike even in 35 C weather. And yes, I am 50...so yeah, an older generation who can't think progressively so I learned to drag my knee at Laguna Seca and Road Atlanta instead of by trial and error on the street in my t-shirt and flip flops like the progressive young guys.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

Im no discus expert. I would of tried them years ago but all the negatives I heard turned me away and brought me to African's. So Im happy for that. I now have 2 discus in one of my planted tanks. They are happy enough to me. Im not a fish expert or biologist so I have no idea if they are truly happy. From what I can see. They don't mind their once a week water change. IMO people who stick them in a tank with nothing, No substrate no plants, wood etc... are the ones causing them un happiness. They get to look at each other all day wondering where the heck they are. LOL

As the old saying goes. You cant teach an old dog new tricks. People are stuck in their old ways, convinced nothing is better or comparable or its un humane to do otherwise. Thankfully there are new age people coming up, defying the odds and proving things can be changed. Saying someone cant do something is a cop out for someones own failures. Giving someone advice to try something new is the best advice someone can give. We used to think forcing your dog to do something was the way to make it learn. Oddly the new generation has realized positive reinforcement works 10 times better. Don't be afraid to try something new.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Here is something for African cichlid hobbyists should think about.

It is true that tank raise fish are not as picky for the water parameter than the wild caught fish. However, one has to think that there are two types of tank raise fish...

1) from most stores, e-trailers, and wholesaler... Most of these fish are raised in Florida or Asia depends on where you buy them from. The water over there is a high ph, gh, and kh. Unless you are buying fry from someone that has a soft water tank tank raise fish, these type of farm raise fish should still be raised in a harder water tank. I totally agree with Rockman.

2) from soft water tank breed cichlids... Unless you know the fry are breed in a softer water, and in a few generation, you can't really tell the effects with soft water on them. Like most case, tank raised fish are also most likely from harder water. So even the guy next door breed them in his soft water tank, that doesn't mean the next generation will right away have the adaption of what soft water fish does have.

Some buffer and consistence is needed from African. Breeding African especially peacocks/haps, and mbuna is not hard. They will breed in most condition. But if you know what the daily requirement is, why not match it or somewhat close to it than trying to change their needs?

When I was mod-ing Cichlid-Forum.com, I used to tell people a bit lower ph is fine as I breed my many types of frontosa. But I do make sure my reader will understand by lower oh means nothing lower than 7.8 and be consistence at that.


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

All my fish were bought from two places a sponsor here now mia but on Alberta aquatics the other is not a sponsor here but breeds and sells his fish from Manitoba also wilds and selling f1,f2. So im willing to bet Harold in Alberta and spencer j in Manitoba have similar water to us then Florida or Asia just my .02


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

I've kept South American and rift lake (Tanganyikan) themed tanks. I'm enjoying the challenges of a WC tropheus tank and I use Seachem products to up the GH and KH, topped with a little more Epsom salt and baking soda. Overkill? Perhaps, but I like to think that I'm giving them the best opportunity for longevity, health and vitality. That goes for my tank raised Africans too. I enjoyed keeping South American's too, but I just have a couple breeding tanks of cory's left, and with too many tanks, comes more maintenance so I just keep the easy growing, non demanding plants. I'd choose the fishes that you have to have and centre your theme based on those fishes.

Not to derail maxandjenny's thread, but I bought fish from Spencer Jack recently and when I measured the tds (GH) in the bagged water, it was pretty darned hard, about 14dGH. Many of his breeding stock are maintained in the US and he has an import station in Florida. I believe Alberta water is pretty hard too, their local stores have much nicer and a greater variety of African's than we do. African's have a greater following in regions where they have naturally hard water.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Alberta and maniboba has much harder water than us.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I am from Alberta, and yes the water is much harder, pretty much the other end of the scale from here. We have learned a lot on our water research project on exactly where our water comes from, what is done to it before it gets to our house, and found out that it is tested weekly at a spot half a block from us! It is one of those things you just take for granted but is very interesting when you look into it. I am kind of a cross between a newbie and old school, since my last tank was shut down nearly 30 years ago when there was a lot less information readily accessible and shareable. If you wanted to ask someone out of town a question, you either phoned at major expense or mailed a letter that would take at least a week to arrive. So mind blowing when you think about how internet has changed everything. Major advances in fish keeping will no doubt continue to develop as we are able to share and try different methods, etc. But as a newbie to the hobby as it is done today, I need to stick, for now, to the tried and proven ways to ensure that we have success. And be realistic about how much time I can devote to maintenance. I just got some bumble bee gobies which I really like, but when I bought them I didn't know they only ate brine shrimp. Now I am having to feed them individually with a dropper. So while experimenting with stuff will bring advances in our hobby, it is not for everyone. I appreciate all the advice, suggestions, and warnings that I get from this forum. Helps me to make an informed decision based on my current situation and ability.

Are petricolas really African??? Damn. Love those guys.


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## Vancitycam (Oct 23, 2012)

Yeah sorry forgot to mention my area of north delta gets water from the artesian well from the water shed so I guess I'm the exception to the rule. You can tell when the reserve is low ad we get switched to muni water with chemicals it smells different.


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## jbyoung00008 (May 16, 2011)

maxandjenny said:


> Are petricolas really African??? Damn. Love those guys.


They are my favorites. When I upgrade my tank to a 210 I will buy more. I want 25 of them. They are from Lake Tanganyika wihich in one of the rift lakes. The way they breed is really neat. They lay their eggs with other fishes eggs in the lake. Since many African's are mouth breeders. The other fish than holds its own eggs and the Petricola's in its mouth unknowingly. The Petricola eggs hatch a few days before the host fish's. They eat the other eggs and once the host fish releases the babies. Petricola's babies come out of her mouth.

A very similar fish is the Synodontis Multipunctatus. It also comes from Lake Tanganyika also known as the Coo koo cat


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