# Unknown ailment - pics attached, pleas help identify



## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi all, our beloved pirahna - Buddha - and our parrots - Archie and Veronica - are sick.

Facts: 
2, maybe 3 tanks infected. 
Buddha's tank: ph=6.4, Ammonia=0-.25, Nitrites=0, Nitrates=20-40ppm, gravel bottom, wood decorations. 
Archie & Veronica's tank: ph=7.2, Ammonia=0, Nitrites=0, Nitrates=20-40ppm

Symptoms: 
Archie & Veronica: listless, clamped fins, not eating, weird strings hanging from their pooh-holes, little stringy things hanging from their fins, inflamed gills, reddened gills, mucus at the gills - coming out of the gills. See close-ups.







Pic above shows inflamed, reddened gills







Pic above shows thin stringy things hanging from bottom fins







Pic above shows mucus at the gills.

Buddha: He showed symptoms about two days before the others, and so he looks much worse. He has weird white spots, but not like pieces of salt (ich), some of them are big - like a 1/8 inch, he looks like he's rotting, he has bits of white stuff on the ends of his fins, and he's listless and not eating. He darts wildly around the tank and has spasms. Can't get a good pic.

Treatment so far: 
We have 8 tanks, never seen this before. First tried Melafix on Buddha's tank as soon as we noticed he hadn't eaten the goldfish we'd put in. After that, we tried API Ick Attack medicine that has worked great previously (for ich obviously) and it's not working (so assuming not ich). Tried Tetra Parasite Guard in Buddha's tank a few days ago, it also didn't seem to work. Tried the Parasite Guard in the cychlid tank (archie & veronica) and it didn't seem to work at all, and the oscar in that tank is now lying sideways.

Please help asap!

Thanks.


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Bad news, one of the parrots -- Archie -- passed away this afternoon. We still don't have a clear understanding of what is ailing the two tanks, but it is severe and the three other fish are in dire straights. Please, if you have an idea of what is happening -- if you've experienced something like this -- please let me know. I'm checking this forum a few times a day.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

This sounds like flukes. What are your water parameters, and have you tried a salt dip and treating with a stronger anti-parasite med like Prazi? Jungle Parasite Clear may work as well - you can get it at PetSmart.


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## aquafunlover (Jul 8, 2012)

I have this anti-fluke treatment for gill & body flukes. Also treats fish lice.

You can have it if you want to meet in Richmond @ Ikea tomorrow.
















Cheers,
Colin


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi Elle, I read that parasites will usually come on slower, so that is why I ruled them out. Whatever hit the tanks hit them in a day. All the fish in the tank went from being totally fine (swimming normally, eating voraciously, etc.) to white stringy stuff hanging from them, not eating a thing, swimming listlessly, etc. in less than a day. It was virtually overnight. Not one of them would eat. BTW, we have three other cychlids in the tank that held Archie and Veronica, as well as a young Oscar.


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Btw, we got Triple Sulfa and Pimafix at the store the other day. We treated Buddha, the pirahna, with Triple Sulfa and the cychlids with Pimafix, to see which one worked better. It looked like Buddha was doing better, so we did a big water change and used Triple Sulfa on the cychlids as well. 

Problem: it appears Buddha's problem is getting worse, not better. He seems to have a grey layer on his skin, which specks of white. It's not ich because we treated for that a week ago and it was totally useless. But it does look like Ich a bit. And although I'm going to try another day of Triple Sulfa simply because I need to go to work right now and don't have time to go out and buy something else, I don't think it's working!!! 

AHHHH.... I think we may lose Veronica and the oscar... Buddha looks strong, but arghh... this is maddening and heartbreaking. The fish haven't eaten a thing in almost a week. If they don't die from whatever is ailing them, they will certainly die of starvation soon.


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Btw, we got Triple Sulfa and Pimafix at the store the other day. We treated Buddha, the pirahna, with Triple Sulfa and the cychlids with Pimafix, to see which one worked better. It looked like Buddha was doing better, so we did a big water change and used Triple Sulfa on the cychlids as well. 

Problem: it appears Buddha's problem is getting worse, not better. He seems to have a grey layer on his skin, which specks of white. It's not ich because we treated for that a week ago and it was totally useless. But it does look like Ich a bit. And although I'm going to try another day of Triple Sulfa simply because I need to go to work right now and don't have time to go out and buy something else, I don't think it's working!!! 

AHHHH.... I think we may lose Veronica and the oscar... Buddha looks strong, but arghh... this is maddening and heartbreaking. The fish haven't eaten a thing in almost a week. If they don't die from whatever is ailing them, they will certainly die of starvation soon.


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

You'ld be surprised how long Fish can go without eating,I had a Synodontis Angelicus that did not eat for 2+ weeks then 1 day just started eating like nothing happened (During Ich treatment),I have mentioned in an earlier post the Use of "Coppersafe" for the treatment of Ich,it is also great for the treatment of Flukes and other Parasites,I've also had sucess with it treating Fungus. 1 treatment last's a Month and if you do Water Changes just replace what is taken out. Best of Luck.


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## ThePhoenix (Jul 23, 2012)

do you have another tank that you can isolate one or 2 of them to treat them separately? This will allow you to try multiple remedies at the same time without any kind of negative interactions


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

Pimafix is fairly mild, and this sounds like it's beyond that. Phoenix's idea is good if you can isolate the fish. What you're describing sounds like a parasite, so the meds Johnny suggested may help. You just don't want to mix them.

I would try a salt dip - at the very least, it sounds like it can't hurt.

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Salt Dip - Bucket Method: 

Using a clean bucket, add ½ cup salt to 1 gallon of fresh dechlorinated water having the same temperature and pH as the tanks water. Once salt has dissolved place fish in bucket for no longer than 5 minutes (time it!). In most cases the fish will immediately float to the top of the bucket and lay on its side, this is normal. However the fish should still be moving. Should the fish stop moving entirely immediately remove it from the bucket and place in freshwater. Never dip for more than 5 minutes, doing so could kill the fish. 

Salt Usage Caution: Although salt may have many benefits a word of caution may be advisable when using salt with certain species of fish. It has been noted that some scaleless species as well as certain types of catfish, most notably the rarer species of the Corydoras family, may not tolerate the use of salt. However many would argue this point.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

yeah it sounds like time for a temp hospital tank , and also sounds like time to break there tanks down , clean everything , from soup to nuts .. if those white spots that look like ich but arent they could be velvet and that is not good...Velvet (fish disease) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

macframalama said:


> yeah it sounds like time for a temp hospital tank , and also sounds like time to break there tanks down , clean everything , from soup to nuts .. if those white spots that look like ich but arent they could be velvet and that is not good...Velvet (fish disease) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Buddha has white spots (they look more like white rotting chunks -- very small, 1-2 mm), but the other fish do NOT have these symptoms. I thought that was because Buddha's symptoms were more advanced, but maybe it's actually because the other tank is suffering a separate disease???

Buddha has chunky white bits and a grey sheen to him, his gills look like they are thinning, but he is still frisky -- he jumps around. Maybe that is because he is a pirahna--he is 100% muscle. He does not have slimy white stringy things hanging from him.

However, the other tank (cychlids) does not have any issues with a skin-disease. They just have the stringy things, and the very laboured breathing and they are VERY tired-looking. Oscar lies on his side for 2 days now and every once in a while he takes a swim. Veronica is constantly at the surface, but looks very ill.


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Elle said:


> This sounds like flukes. What are your water parameters, and have you tried a salt dip and treating with a stronger anti-parasite med like Prazi? Jungle Parasite Clear may work as well - you can get it at PetSmart.


Do you know where I can get Prazi or Jungle Parasite Clear in Vancouver? Also, we tried parasite Guard by Tetra a few days ago, and while we didn't complete the treatment, we opted to try something else because they didn't look like they were getting even a tiny bit better. Do you think that Parasite Guard is just not strong enough? Would you think that Jungle Parasite Clear will work better than Coppersafe?


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Elle said:


> Pimafix is fairly mild, and this sounds like it's beyond that. Phoenix's idea is good if you can isolate the fish. What you're describing sounds like a parasite, so the meds Johnny suggested may help. You just don't want to mix them.


I have read that a parasite infection can cause bacterial infections (fin rot, etc.), and that all types of infections can lead to other types (fungal, eg.). So, my question is: if I medicate for the parasite, shouldn't I keep medicating for the bacteria? There is clearly a bacterial infection involved, even if it is a parasite because there has been some fin rot on the Oscar. What medications can I mix, and which one's not? For example, if I use the Coppersafe/Jungle parasite clear for the parasite, then can I keep dosing with pimafix/melafix or salt for bacteria and fungus? Can I dose with parasite medicine and the Triple Sulfa at the same time?

Oh man... Thanks for all of your help everyone. I really appreciate this. We've never experienced anything so devastating before.

ps. Can the salt bath kill a fish that is VERY low in energy (ie. Oscar is lying on his side now for 2 days).


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## JohnnyAppleSnail (May 30, 2010)

I would recommend never mixing Meds but staying with one,the reason I don't mix meds with Salt because it is like a double whammy to the more sensitive Fish,also don't expect a miracle cure to happen over night,sometimes it may take 2-3 days or even longer for Meds to start taking visual effects. What you are going to find are People with success with diff. Meds so basically you must choose one you think best,Myself Coppersafe works,also raise temp to at least 86-88F and increase aeration (Airstones,bubblewand,etc.). I wouldn't do salt bath on the Oscar,sounds to Me he doesn't need the added stress. Daily Water Changes certainly won't hurt,I've never tried Jungle Parasite Clear so I can't help you there.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

I'd try the Coppersafe and higher temps at this point, super, super clean water plus lots of extra aeration. There's a Petsmart on Grandview Hwy near Rupert, but I would also recommend trying King Ed Pets (in the sponsor forum) at Kingsway and Edmonds in Burnaby.

Switching meds around can be more stressful than picking one, but I've added salt to the tank (not a bath or dip, just a bit of salt) to help combat infection along with the meds. If the oscar is lying on his side, a dip may be too stressful for him.

Can you break down the tanks and clean them right out? Do you have hospital tanks? It sounds like there is something in the tanks themselves.


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## macframalama (Apr 17, 2012)

thats what i was thinking , use a couple of bare glass hospital tanks , and hyper clean the actual tanks, if you have no tanks a clean rubber maid tote will do for the time being only harder to access there condition


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi there mac, 
I'm wondering how do I clean the tank if there are plants in it? If the plants can hold the parasite, then how do I ensure that the plant does not reinfect the fish once I put them back in? 

I have read that the parasite will die once there are no hosts... is that not true?


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

*Update*

Thanks to everyone who helped out. We aren't in the clear but three of the 4 fish are doing better, including Buddha and Veronica. The only loss was Archie, and the Oscar is still very sick, but we have our fingers crossed.

We created a small hospital tank by putting some other fish and our frog in another tank, which caused another problem: the frog ate 11 of our Danios and a guppy! haha... it never ends 

Anyways, we treated with General Cure and the fish looked much better after only a day. The fungus and bacterial infections are clearly secondary.

Last question: do we need to disinfect the larger cychlid tank? Won't the parasites die if all the fish are gone? The reason I ask is because there are many plants in that tank and we would have no where to put them? How do we disinfect the plants?


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

Glad to hear things are looking better! You want to break down and disinfect EVERYTHING in all the tanks that had sick fish. That includes all decorations, substrate and even the filter if necessary.

When I disinfect a tank, this is the process I follow. I usually do it outside with a hose, as it's messy and takes a while.

You will need:

* unscented pure bleach (no added scents or soaps as this will kill your fish)
* pure white vinegar, large bottle (5L)
* 3 buckets (for decorations, plants and substrate)
* clean rags and scrubbies (don't use the ones with soap embedded! Plastic dollar store scrubbies are good for this)
* spare tanks or rubbermaids for the fish to live in temporarily

*Disinfection Instructions: Tank*


Remove all fish from tank and place in another tank or clean, unused Rubbermaid with a filter and air stone running. Make sure that there's a lid to keep any jumpers in!

Remove ALL decorations, plants, and substrate from the tank. Place in separate buckets.

Scrub empty tank thoroughly with a clean scrubby or rag using a solution of 1 part pure, unscented bleach to 10 parts hot water. DO NOT EVER USE SOAP OR DETERGENT OF ANY KIND!!!!!!

Rinse and refill tank with clean water, add 1 cup bleach for each 20 gallons. Let tank stand, filled with bleach-y water, for at least an hour.

Rinse tank thoroughly, at least 4-5 times, wipe it out with a clean rag soaked in pure white vinegar (use lots) and rinse again with clean water.

Refill with water and add a big (triple) dose of a strong dechlorinator like Prime. Let stand for 1+ hours.

Empty tank and rinse with clean water, allow to air dry.

Rinse your filter media, and remove any carbon if you haven't done so. It's a good idea to have a cycled backup filter if possible, as doing this can cause you to have a cycle bump and ammonia spike.

*Disinfection Instructions: Decorations*


Scrub all surface crud off decorations with a clean scrubby (NO SOAP!) and plain water.

Fill decorations bucket with 1 part pure unscented bleach to 20 parts water; allow to soak at least 1 hour.

Rinse decorations VERY thoroughly with clean water and white vinegar, at least 4-5 times. There should be no bleach smell.

Refill bucket with water and add a big (triple) dose of a strong dechlorinator like Prime. Let stand for 1+ hours.

Remove decorations and and rinse with clean water, allow to air dry.

*Disinfection Instructions: Substrate*


Place substrate in its own bucket outside. Stick a running hose into the bucket, dump in a cup of bleach and stir. Let the hose run and overflow the bucket to remove dirt, stirring occasionally. Rinse for at least 15-30 minutes, more is better. The water should be running clear and there should be no smell of bleach at all.

Rinse one final time with dechlorinator added to rinse water before replacing in tank.

*Disinfection Instructions: Plants*


 Place plants in their own bucket. Plants can be very sensitive to bleach, so what I would do is rinse ONLY the leaves quickly with the 1 part bleach to 20 parts water solution, and then rinse again several times in clean, dechlorinated water.

I have a spare tank (a small one, but still better than nothing) that you can borrow if you need it. I also have about 5 million spare buckets. You can buy the big 5 gallon plastic buckets from Rona or Home Depot for cheap as well if you need somewhere to put the fish or plants while you're cleaning.


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## ThePhoenix (Jul 23, 2012)

Thats good advice!


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## Shalon (Oct 7, 2012)

Update October 17, 2012: 
I can't believe it but the battle still continues. Unfortunately, we lost Oscar a few days ago and Buddha the pirahna died the day before yesterday. That leaves only Veronica left and two smaller cychlids. 

The two smaller cychlids - an albino peacock and a giraffe - are doing okay and back in the big tank. They don't show signs of disease, but the peacock who is normally shy is beating up the giraffe. 

That leaves Veronica, the parrot, who got slightly better after the General Cure but is now back to acting weird and hasn't eaten in a very long time. She has blotchy patches in her deep orange colours and one small tuft of flesh hanging from her: it looked like one of her scales peeled off, and a bit of white flesh stuff oozed out. But she's swimming really irregularly (upside down) and her appetite, however small it had grown a few days ago, is now vanished again, so I think she might die soon too. 

It's weird how some fish seem okay and others died or are not healing.


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## Elle (Oct 25, 2010)

Oh, dear. I'm sorry to hear about the losses. Did you break down and disinfect the tanks? If you did and this is still ongoing, I might try another round of treatment.

If the peacock is beating on the other fish a lot, you might want to separate them if you can to minimize stress.


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