# Buffers are BAD



## logan22 (Sep 6, 2010)

Well its been two weeks in to using my buffers...two of my fish have died...suddenly..so im kinda pissed off...one of the ladys at island pets gave me faulty information on how to use buffer in my 90 gallon..two of my other fish look very pale.. and loosing color.. i had to do an immediate water change seemed to have helped a bit..ive stoped using buffer in my 90 gallon..but my goldfish seem to really like the change..they prefer harder water to begin with. So i gave it a try it didnt work out..im going to stay away from using chemicals all together!!!!


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## yuppa (Apr 22, 2010)

I understand your frustration, however to help the other members could you please details *exactly* what you did? your KH/GH measurements before and after? did you buffer with water changes or add directly to tank? ect.. Please be very specific!

Thanks


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## neven (May 15, 2010)

Aiming for a hardness of 5 degrees (90 ppm), KH and GH normally get you a very community tank friendly hardness. I know ipu keeps their hardness at this so it'll make new fish acclimitize easier

The biggest issue people have is dosing the whole tank right off the bat, so they go from negligible hardness and jump a few degrees shocking the fish. The trick is to only adjust the water you change to where you want it set at and only do 30% changes for a few weeks, this till slowly bring up the hardness and give the fish plenty of time to get comfortable. If you are aiming for very high hardness, this could even shock the fish, gradual transition is the goal

I wouldn't say buffers are bad, bad directions on how to use buffers are bad, constantly attempting to adjust parameters with buffers = bad. Water changing without buffers when you have high PH, high hardness tanks = bad. Its like water changing using 40C water.


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## hp10BII (Apr 23, 2010)

Good advice given, stability is the key. When in doubt, follow the instructions on the jar. Depending on the tank, I use buffers to stabilize pH, additives to harden the water, but when you're going from 0 to ??, a little bit of patience, little increments along the way would make it easier on your fish.

Just like heaters, gradual adjustments to your desired temperature will make it more comfortable for our fish.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

logan22 said:


> Well its been two weeks in to using my buffers...two of my fish have died...suddenly..so im kinda pissed off...one of the ladys at island pets gave me faulty information on how to use buffer in my 90 gallon..two of my other fish look very pale.. and loosing color.. i had to do an immediate water change seemed to have helped a bit..ive stoped using buffer in my 90 gallon..but my goldfish seem to really like the change..they prefer harder water to begin with. So i gave it a try it didnt work out..im going to stay away from using chemicals all together!!!!


Agree with the posts above. Either you buffered too high or too fast would be my guesses with the limited info provided. Given the importance of this topic please include more information on exactly what went wrong. We do a maintenance contract on a 90 gallon with Parrot Cichlids ironically, since taking on the contract, we have adjusted the hardness levels the same way we recommend and in the 2 months of looking after them they have noticeably grown and the tank cleared up on it's own. Many people have commented on how much better the aquariums and in particular, how the fish look.
Don't get discouraged, evaluate what went wrong and correct it. Believe me, going back to a hardness of 0 is not your answer. If fish could talk they would agree with me.


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## Kitsune (Jul 17, 2010)

I've been using buffers for a few months now, and haven't lost a fish since. But I started SUPER slow, because I wasn't sure if I would get it right. So I did it at a fraction of what it recommended on the back, and just kept adding it week after week, until I got to the point I wanted to be.


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## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

Yeah "Problems with buffers" would be a more apt title. Like saying "vitamins are bad" or oxygen is bad. Anything we use in our tanks can be a problem. Extra issues for all dosage and labeling meant for water parameters far different from ours i suspect... Sorry to hear and good luck as you move forward.


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## logan22 (Sep 6, 2010)

well i have a paper written down for me from this girl brandy at ipu..she told me 3 level table sppons disolved in the tank water before adding it to your tank..she said three level table spoons we equal 1 degree of hardness so i followed what she wrote down.. and explained to me. I was checking my hardness every day, then when i was at 6 degrees i stoped using it..everything was normal..but then a few days later.. i started noticing signs in my fish..some were turning diferent colors..and one of them died suddenly..checked my water param.. they were okay..i had a few ph swings but then it was at 7.2 but then i checked my hardess AND ITS SPIKED to 9 degrees without even putting any in??i was really confused as to why that happend..i did everything she told me to do i guess less is more..


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## user_error (Aug 15, 2010)

if you had little hardness to begin with and made it go up to 6 too fast (and for whatever reason it got to 9) and your fish weren't used to it, its not surprising

i don't think all the fish you list on your 90G are going to fare the same with those levels of minerals (i believe the danios probably okay but your barbs or corys might not be)


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## Discus (Apr 23, 2010)

ya buffers are great been using them for almost a year now.... have had some deaths... but that was due to the fish being week... such as emperor tetras and 1 or 2 smaller discus... but bigger discus thrive in it I find...


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## ngo911 (May 19, 2010)

From my experience with Seachem Alkaline Buffer, 1/2 teaspoon into 15 gallons raises the hardness to ~3dKH. Based on that, 3 tablespoons into 90 gallons (assuming the 90 gallons had 0 dKH) would raise it to ~9dKH so I'm not surprised with your results. However, if you dosed that all at once, the KH would have jumped from 0 to 9 fairly quickly, as well as the pH. I could see that stressing out your fish.

What I would recommend is checking your current dKH again, and then create a new plan to slowly adjust it to the desired dKH of 3-5 for community setups. You definitely should not give up, take this as a learning experience. Your fish will be better off in the long run.

Good luck!


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## ibenu (Apr 21, 2010)

Logan, I was just talking to another user about what we had been through in the past and wanted to share (so you know you are not alone) I had tried using buffers back a few years ago, but with instructions from an unreputable source. I killed tank full of fish twice and gave up on any adjusting of water parameters after that. Going from 80% casualties instantly with buffers to only 10-25% a year with none seemed like way better math to me. 

This is a complicated subject but worth getting right long term. When using products for planted tank that increased both GH and KH there was a vast improvement in colours and pairings, successful breedings, so overall health was better. Not doing planted at this time, I'm back to no buffers. 

Im want to work with them again, but armed with information that works. 
Every type of fish requires different adjustments to be in ideal environment. Hopes we have some extensive knowledge spread around for what is best in each scenario soon being spread around here.

Cause as I said, when you first try and kill everything, the easiest thing is just to give it a pass. Not the best thing for the fish, as a tetra I thought had hemoragic septacemia, i now believe had an osmoregulation issue do to no buffers. 

I look forward to these conversations being something of the past for us locally, ideally with some proper education as well as successes we will be better fish keepers as a result. 

Grant, we require some real detailed instructions on species/product/dosage/testing knowledge to really move forward in this area.


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your losses. I have had great success with the buffers from IPU. Would probably work better if used as Neven described increasing it at a slower rate. The info Brandy gave you is technically not faulty as she simply told you exactly what the bottle tells you to do, 3 LEVEL tbsp daily til desired level is reached, is what the treatment calls for. I emphasized level ,cause if it isn't level then it is definitely adding more than recommended The one different thing she said was to "dissolve in the tank water before adding it to your tank" was a good recommendation, as the bottle says you can add it directly to the tank. Here is the directions from that product:
Use 7 g (1 level teaspoon) for every 40 L (10 gallons*) daily until desired pH is reached (this dose raises alkalinity by about 2 meq/L (5.6 dKH)). If water is soft or not well buffered, use with Acid Buffer™ (see below). HINTS: Alkaline Buffer™ will not lower pH. It may be added directly to the aquarium at any time. It preferentially buffers at pH 7.8, but can manage any pH between 7.2 and 8.5 when used with Acid Buffer™.

if you feel any faulty info was obtained the you should blame the manufacturer

I know it's frustrating with everything we do to get perfect water to keep our fish alive and healthy. Believe me I have lost probably 20 fish over the last 9 mos, due to issues like these. But once you get it to the proper levels, your fish will be much happier & healthier. It's been quite some time since I had a fish death & I can thank Grant, the employees at IPU & the members here for all the knowledge I have obtained in getting my water parameters in order. Don't be so quick to judge or give up. I assure you ,once you get it in order your fish and you will be much happier.


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## logan22 (Sep 6, 2010)

funny because my goldfish seem to really like it..same with my guppies and my dwarf gourami's... have had no problem at all...but in my 90 gallon..my barbs .. are very stressed.. some other fish two turning different colors.. i have been watching them for the past 24 hours...hopefully they pull through i love my little guys


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

hope your fish pull through, some just dont like a fast adjustment the trick is doing it extremely slowly unless theyre a really hardy species of fish
my africans love buffers, without them they act all itchy and try to scrape themselves on the rocks and substrate. not doing it for the plants (not a big fan of planted aquariums) but i still use buffers for the fish's sake


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## Diztrbd1 (Apr 21, 2010)

I had bad luck with Tiger Barbs & green tiger barbs myself. They were the first fish I went with and they were always stressed, used to think it was cause of the red tailed shark I have, chasing them from time to time . But now I'm sure it was the water , as this was long before I knew about the water issues. Haven't tried them since I've started using buffers, although I'd like to , they are cool fish for sure


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## roadrunner (Apr 25, 2010)

IPU recommended buffers to me to and I have to say, I'm pretty happy with saechem alkiline buffer. I was little hesitant to use it in the beginning so I only added little bit with water changes. Now I'm trying to grow plants so I've been also adding equilibrium. I'm trying to raise it slow and my fish seem to like it. I have cherry barbs and I've never seen them soooooo red before! I've had only one death since I've started using them (one tetra) but he was really old. I'm still a newbie when it comes to chemistry, but I've learned a lot on this forum. So I would suggest to read more post, different opinions and experiences and see what suits you best but keep it mind - less is sometimes more. Good luck, hopefully you're fish will start doing better.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

ibenu said:


> Logan, I was just talking to another user about what we had been through in the past and wanted to share (so you know you are not alone) I had tried using buffers back a few years ago, but with instructions from an unreputable source. I killed tank full of fish twice and gave up on any adjusting of water parameters after that. Going from 80% casualties instantly with buffers to only 10-25% a year with none seemed like way better math to me.
> 
> This is a complicated subject but worth getting right long term. When using products for planted tank that increased both GH and KH there was a vast improvement in colours and pairings, successful breedings, so overall health was better. Not doing planted at this time, I'm back to no buffers.
> 
> ...


Lisa,
All fish require minerals in the water in order to balance the minerals in their tissues. Of course in some cases, nature finds a way to adjust to unfavorable conditions or everyone's fish would be dead. That being said, the conditions of our tap water being as low in minerals as it is, causes a huge amount of illness and death and needs to be corrected. It is surprising how much illness can be attributed to this problem.

I can appreciate it is a confusing topic to some, mostly due to hobbyists being pre programmed about the importance of pH levels.

We at IPU no longer test pH in our aquariums due to the fact that they are always within acceptable levels. We check our hardness levels weekly and sometimes twice weekly depending on fish volumes.

It takes a very small amount of salt to raise GH levels in the aquarium. adjusting your GH with salt or other products does not directly affect the stability of your pH.
By using Alkaline buffer or similar product, pH balance and stability can be achieved by increasing your KH to as little as 2 degrees. Those concerned about making a mistake should try a low level such as 2 dKH first. Their fish will benefit from the added minerals and the stable pH.

A GH and KH level of around 5 to 6 degrees is acceptable to most fish. This level is still considered soft so don't think you are raising it too much. If you have fish such as Mollies, Platies, Guppies, Swordtails, Goldfish or African Cichlids, they prefer hardness levels much higher. Let's not forget that Livebearers can survive for long periods of time in full strength saltwater! Clearly they prefer high mineral content.

I am not too sure what you are looking for me to say that has not been posted on our recent sticky in our sub forum.
Add the buffer and salt in very small gradual amounts and monitor the GH, KH and pH and you will have a full understanding how one affects the other. If you make a mistake, a water change with our tap water will quickly lower any higher levels by dilution. There is no negative to using buffers unless you overdose or raise the levels from our "0" to the desired level all at once. I hear from clients literally EVERYDAY how much better their fish look and how much clearer their water is. I recently had a customer with cloudy eye on his fish. After adding salt and causing his GH to increase, the problem eradicated itself without medicating at all. I think the best way to absorb this topic is to not refer to it as buffering but rather adding minerals to your water for your fish to use. For those that have made any errors with similar products in the past, don't be discouraged. This problem has been around since the beginning of aquarium keeping in the lower mainland, any improvement now is a huge deal.


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## jkam (Apr 21, 2010)

I think something like "does this much of this product for every X gallons of water to increase by X amount" is what everyone is looking for.

Like for aquarium salt, how much would someone put into the tank to raise it by a certain amount?


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

Diztrbd1 said:


> I had bad luck with Tiger Barbs & green tiger barbs myself. They were the first fish I went with and they were always stressed, used to think it was cause of the red tailed shark I have, chasing them from time to time . But now I'm sure it was the water , as this was long before I knew about the water issues. Haven't tried them since I've started using buffers, although I'd like to , they are cool fish for sure


Unfortunately at the moment, the best example of what a difference "minerals" make can be witnessed by going around town and looking at the condition of a few classic fish species that really cant tolerate these conditions. Go into any other stores and look at their Livebearers, feeders and exotic goldfish. Some stores I have been to did not even have Guppies, I doubt it is by choice. They are one of the most popular aquarium fish and ours are bulletproof. I am not trying to toot our horn if you will, I am just trying to let hobbyists judge for themselves. Of course there are still other factors that affect the health of an LFS's livestock but by adding the proper minerals, fish adjust to their new locations much easier. One of my best examples of this is Parrot Cichlids. Everytime we used to bring in Parrots, they would plummet to the gravel head first at top speed. They were drip acclimated and various other trial methods but the results were the same. They would remain on the bottom for sometimes as long as a week and you could see the stress was very high. Now with the addition of the minerals, they will feed hours after being introduced to the stores systems. The only difference is the mineral addition.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

jkam said:


> I think something like "does this much of this product for every X gallons of water to increase by X amount" is what everyone is looking for.
> 
> Like for aquarium salt, how much would someone put into the tank to raise it by a certain amount?


OK, I think I covered this on the sticky but for aquarium salt, start with a regular maintenance dose of 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons and measure the level. Truthfully I have never ran an experiment on what that dose achieves because we have found that the GH when using salt is always in acceptable levels. 
With the Alkaline buffer, their dosage is 1 level teaspoon per 10 gallons will raise your KH to roughly 5 degrees. As mentioned a level of 5 is a good average for most fish but higher levels are preferred for livebearers etc.


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## Rastapus (Apr 21, 2010)

roadrunner said:


> IPU recommended buffers to me to and I have to say, I'm pretty happy with seachem alkiline buffer. I was little hesitant to use it in the beginning so I only added little bit with water changes. Now I'm trying to grow plants so I've been also adding equilibrium. I'm trying to raise it slow and my fish seem to like it. I have cherry barbs and I've never seen them soooooo red before! I've had only one death since I've started using them (one tetra) but he was really old. I'm still a newbie when it comes to chemistry, but I've learned a lot on this forum. So I would suggest to read more post, different opinions and experiences and see what suits you best but keep it mind - less is sometimes more. Good luck, hopefully you're fish will start doing better.


Good to hear roadrunner! Honestly guys, this is typically what I hear everyday. Try it and try it slowly and of course with test kits.


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## lar (Apr 21, 2010)

I have been using equalibrium and akaline buffer for 2 weeks now; however, I did not follow the recommanded dosing on the bottle. I just add a level teaspoon every other day and keep testing the water until it gives me the target readings. All the fishes seems doing ok. IMO, there is no specific dosage since everyone's tank is different, depends on what they have in their tanks (wood, water aeration), all these affect the water chemistry. Make sure adjust them even slower if you have a small tank. I understand it is frustrated when you wanna do something good for your fishes, and something bad happen. But please don't give up.


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## summit (Aug 22, 2010)

I also just started using buffers, my new 40G tank that is just now cycling tested out at 2GH/3KH, I thought now with no fish in the tank would be the perfect time to buffer to a 5GH/5KH level.

I used 1 Tbsp equilibrium and 1 Tspn of alkaline, waited 24 hours and my water is testing at 4GH/4KH, I am waiting an extra 24 hours to see if any change by tonight, if not I will dose another 1 Tspn alkaline and 1/2 Tbsp equilibrium to hopefully bring up to 5GH/5KH level.

Just a couple findings, if I did not test my water before hand and used the recommended dosage for me on the bottle (1 Tbsp/20 gallons equilibrium and 1 Tsp/10 gallons alkaline) my levels would have been way over what I wanted! The directions are based on RO/DI

Also is it normal for equilibrium to turn into a solid when mixed with water? I mixed tank water and the equilibrium in a plastic juice container I use for mixing, and I noticed that on the bottom was a white hard residue that almost melted into the bottom of the juice container, I had to mash it to break it all up and even then there were small bits not dissolving, its almost like it had a reaction with the plastic container?


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## lar (Apr 21, 2010)

summit said:


> I also just started using buffers, my new 40G tank that is just now cycling tested out at 2GH/3KH, I thought now with no fish in the tank would be the perfect time to buffer to a 5GH/5KH level.


Same here. I have a 10 gallon cycling now. Without live stock there, I don't have to worry about it.



summit said:


> Also is it normal for equilibrium to turn into a solid when mixed with water? I mixed tank water and the equilibrium in a plastic juice container I use for mixing, and I noticed that on the bottom was a white hard residue that almost melted into the bottom of the juice container, I had to mash it to break it all up and even then there were small bits not dissolving, its almost like it had a reaction with the plastic container?.


i think it is normal. I have to mash the bigger piece in a plastic container first and they will melt in the tank sooner or later.


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## summit (Aug 22, 2010)

lar said:


> Same here. I have a 10 gallon cycling now. Without live stock there, I don't have to worry about it.
> 
> i think it is normal. I have to mash the bigger piece in a plastic container first and they will melt in the tank sooner or later.


Thanks, they did melt after a while, but it was strange how I had the container with tank water in it, and I dumped the Tbsp of equilibrium into it which was in powder form and it becamse solid once dumped it and fused to the bottom of the container, it looked like a solid frisbee made from equilibrium, but not all did this, most dissolved right away. Perhaps I need to mix it more slowly while adding the equilibrium rather than dumping it in and mixing after.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Equilibrium contains Calcium Sulfate which decreases in solubility with increase in temp, so if you are using warm water to dissolve it, that could be your problem: File:Temperature dependence calcium sulfate solubility.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## summit (Aug 22, 2010)

well I have my tank at 80 for the cycle, so that would explain it. I will try it with cold dechlorinated next time and see if it makes a difference.


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## Mferko (Jun 8, 2010)

i use a 3.5G watering pale to fill the tank and i just divide the 10G dosage on the back of the buffer and cichlid lake salts by 3 and add it with the prime and shake it around real good once its 1/4 full.

right now its 15 degrees KH, 18 degrees GH, and 8.6 PH
once i use up this vic/malawi buffer im gonna get the tanganyika one which is supposed to buffer to ~9.3 PH


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## bcorchidguy (Jan 14, 2011)

Everything Rastapus said I agree with 100%, I don't even own a pH test kit anymore, I treat my water change water (not top off water) and MY PREFERENCE is 5dGH 3dKH but that's what I do... why I do it this way... just because I simply do. I did this with Discus and angels, I did it with guppies etc... Plant tanks and fish only tanks were all the same. African Cichlids and of course Marine tanks were the exception. I've always found equilibrium isn't 100% soluble, I rinse out my water change tank and syphon out what's left over.

To me this is as close to simplicity as it gets, only thing simpler would be if our water came out of our taps bang on. Instead of having 3 different salts, and 2 different buffers and stuff for this and stuff for that... Alkaline buffer for dKH and Equilibrium for dGH... Easy Peasy... With a measurable KH the pH takes care of it's self.

Douglas


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