# Stingray disaster



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

Sad day for me, something went very wrong with my female ray last night, and she didn't make it. 

I am unsure what happened, her and the male have been doing fine, nobody bothers them if anything the male ray bothers everyone the most lol.

My parameters are fine , been doing 20-30 % water changes every 2-3 days i always keep them regular when adding new fish since big fish ad big bio load helps allow the filters to adjust. Both were eating and exploring the tank seemed happy both have had nice white bellies no signs of any problems even those little nip's they had from shipment were almost cleared up. 

My regular routine is too switch too very dim night lighting about an hour before lights out, this is when i feed, yesterday when i went down too feed both she and the male took food, then while i was watching i noticed what looked like she was expelling waste, a few jet's of cloudy milky water came up from her ventral area like jets up from base of the tail. 

I assumed she was either about too birth/miscarry her pup's I've been reading up on it, and seems too commonly occur after lights out.

I turned out the lights figured it was best too bother her as little as possible during the process it's early still so didn't expect live babies but that was half expected given she was shipped 30 days before the due date.

I switched the bulbs too black light so i could check in on her through the night. 

At 1am i noticed her disk was not laying flat, not curled up like i see in pictures of "death curle" but off the ground like she was sitting on something or her belly was swollen lifting her a bit off the ground. I could see clearly that she was breathing fine, and after a few minutes i saw her disk move then she looked like she always does fin edges flat against the ground. 

I checked again at 2am, again she wasn't flat on the surface and hadn't moved much since last check, but other then that looked ok.

I woke up again this morning at 4 am, it was dark i was using only one 13w black light so as not too wake the fish but she again had her fins slightly raised but this time didn't seem too be moving.

Not wanting too disturb her I went back too bed. Unable too sleep of course I went back 30 minutes later worried and after inspection i could see she wasn't breathing.

I sat watching for probably half an hour, trying too see if i could see any signs of life I didn't want to turn the lights on and shock everyone over a sleeping fish. 

I turned on the lights and removed her from the tank, I did a 50% water change the tank's water was cloudy so she must have released more of the "white milky stuff", no signs of babies and she was still very fat So i don't think she birthed them.

After removing her i inspected her body carefully no signs of bite marks or damage, she had cloudy eyes and her belly was fat and round. The male still looks 100% healthy, both of them are have been eating fine both even ate last night when i was feeding.

My only assumption is something went horribly wrong while trying to pass the babies.

Is there anything else that could cause a ray too go from eating at midnight too dead lass then 4 hours later ?? I cant imagine anything in the water could have been the cause not without effecting the other ray or tank mates in some way?


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

sorry to hear the loss. Sometimes it happens... Did you open her up to see if the pups are there and how far they develop?


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

No, i was very tempted too do so.

It was 4am i was half asleep and at the time my only thought what if the parameters are off and my tests didn't pick up, or what if her body or the fluid she expelled is harming my other ray. I just bagged her (man she was HEAVY) and stuck her into he freezer pending disposal. 

Then went straight too doing a water change/tank cleaning . The male seems fine, active /actively pestering bichirs he's finally lost interest in the ornate bichirs after discovering my big female endli,


----------



## effox (Apr 21, 2010)

Sorry to hear that man, that really sucks.


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Try opening her. Sometimes fish can have difficulty giving birth and died with pups/eggs still within. I know it happened on my frontosa female.


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

Must have been a birthing issue I cant figure out what else it could have been. 

Double checked everything today just in case , male looks fine but better safe then sorry.

Temps in that tank are between 82-84, I ran all tests at least 3 times, PH is between 5.5 - 6.0, nitrites and nitrates too low for test too pick up so might as well call it 0, Ammonia came up between 0.0 - 0.5.

i've been doing a 30-40% water change every 3 day's. I'm thinking i will change this too 10-20% every other day. 

Feeding small amounts daily/every other day based on how fast the food get's cleaned up. If they slow down so does feeding.The bottom dwellers eat mostly Shrimp and Night crawlers at the moment. It's a bare bottom tank only change is that I recently removed a very large piece of driftwood too make more room. 

My main concern now is making sure I'm not doing anything that will cause me too loose the other ray.

I think that pretty much covers my care on that tank in a nut shell...Is there anything I'm missing? anything people think i could change too do better ? tankmates are a little sun catfish, 6 bichirs, a RTG an Oscar and an indo dat nobody bothers the ray. filtration matches stocking running both an FX5 and a large DIY sump/wetdry/trickle tower. 


.... side tracking a bit but Charles

What are your thoughts on sand ? Some ray keepers i talk too seem dead against it, others say ray's prefer a sand bed too make them feel secure.

I've always used sand in all my tank's, I find the substrate only helps too stabilize the environment, Online is see allot saying sand will do the opposite 

I don't understand the supposed negative effects on water quality since i find debris builds up on a flat bottom just as easily as a sand bottom. Gravel I always found would trap in allot of debris and then occasionally mess everything up when stirred around. Is their any other reason ray's are better on bare bottom then sand ? and in your experience does any color in particular seem too enhance the motoro's color?


----------



## mcrocker (May 29, 2010)

If you have measurable ammonia but no nitrites/nitrates, maybe something happened to throw your tank off its cycle?


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

ya, the ray's were only recently added, so I'm sure the filters are still adjusting a bit too the new bio load but i wouldn't think those levels would be harmful even too a ray. and the male shows no signs of illness.

The tank has some monsters in it but ray's produce allot of waste, a pair this size probably almost doubled the load on the filters alone. When adding large fish too a tank it can take a couple weeks too balance everything out again, however i never find any dangerous levels or spikes as i always stick too strict feeding and water change routine when adding new fish.


----------



## Death's Sting (Apr 21, 2010)

Judging from your vivid description of the ray, its sounds as if it had an internal parasite. The other conclusion would be that the tank had not been cycled enough to handle the new bio load, hence the touch of ammonia. One reason the male survived could simply be the fact that its much more healthier. Every ray has its own personal limits, some are just weaker then others.

Also, a common reason for rays to get cloudy eyes is pH fluctuation. In my experience I have found that rays can not tolerate pH fluctuation at all. I usually keep the alkalinity has high as possible. The pH of tank doesn't matter one lick, as long as its stable. 

Im sorry for your loss.


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

I use a thin layer of sand. It is what they like to have. I dont know about other people. This is just my experience. A bare tank is easier to clean. But I like to have what they are used to. Plus a little bit of sand can provide some surface area for bacteria.

A thin layer is like only a cm thick only. They will move your sand around to show bare spot, but I don't mind that at all.


----------



## Luc (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm sorry for your loss... Like charles said I would try opening her up !


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

PH i doubt is an issue , i do not adjust my PH, I test the tank's and out of the tap, it's always no lower then 5.5 no higher then 6.5.

I'd feel safe saying no chance it's an internal parasite, i know the previous owner, he's raised them since 5-6" with excellent care.

At this point there may have been a bit of an ammonia spike not enough too harm any fish alone but on a prego female who's was still stressed from being shipped and recently arriving at a new home, it was just too much for her too handle.

I'm testing my tank now 4 times a day foe the next week just in case the filters are having trouble catching up with the added bio load.that way i a spike happens I'll know.

This morning showed 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates and 0 ammonia, ph between 5.5 and 6. 

as for sand these ray's have been kept with and without sand but given that this tank has more activity then the tank he came from i think I'll put sand in too give him the opportunity to bury if he feels like it


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

I doubt your ammonia is an issue. With ph as yours, it should not be a problem.
If it is a prego female, most likely it is stress. I would never ship a prego female. I once had 3 prego females shipped to me from the wild...

1) gave still birth in the bag during shipping, needless to say, it totally messed up the water and killed everything.

2) 1 female gave still birth in my tank the same day she arrived. Female was fine.

3) 1 female gave birth of 1 pup 1 month later in my customer's tank. Though it was a driving distance, so stress was very mininal.


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

Ya, the previous owner was shutting down his tank and moving, it was take her prego or not at all! and i got the pair for a steal i couldn't turn it down. 

Shipping was short, and by car they spent maybe 5-6 hours in the bag as far as i know although it was 2 of them in one bag and then stuck in 50 gallon drum that was cut in half. , no heat no styro but it was a warm summer day.

At least the male is still doing fine. I will be adding sand this weekend it seems the main argument with sand is waste build up, but I don't mind spending extra time too keep it clean. Especially if i can watch the ray act more naturally. 

I'm only planing on a thin layer, but I'm curious from someone with experience what's the down side too more sand? is it simply the increased risk of buildup/debris and anaerobic pockets ?


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

that is the down side of the sand. Some sand like dessert sand, or play sand usually pack too hard so any waste in there will not escape. Rays will only move the top layer of the sand as they move around. The heavier thicker portion of the sand will not get move around that much. So build up can occur there.

Another down side is the sand will get into places like impellers, propellers, and ball value. Especially if you are using eheim 2080 filters like myself, you don't want any build up go into the ball value of your adaptor.


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

I figured that was the problem!I won't be putting a deep bed and I'll manually stir and re-level the sand once a week so it's shouldn't be a problem. 

I use a large trickle tower/sump (soon being upgraded too an even larger) sump/tower. As well as an FX5, I worried about sand and the FX5, but will make some adjustments on it, The tank was running before without it the added canister. I just like having a second filter system in case one runs into a problem. 

I also have 2 fluval plus 4 internal canisters they move around something like 260gPH each. They were on clearance sale one day 10 bucks each so i bought 10 stuck 2 in every tank. 

I leave them just touching/a fraction of an inch above the water surface. s Really breaks up the surface, and the way i see them up the filter return/sump pushes the flow from them down across the bottom of the tank. 

Keeps the tank very stirred up, and well oxygenated only down side is my fish room sounds like you standing next too a set of rapids at times, and the thousands of tiny bubbles are picked up in pictures , looks great in person but in pic's the bubbles can be tricky!

For sand i'm leaning toward pool filter sand,one that's not silica, and beaded is better... this sound right?? Any opinion on mixing small amounts of graved in? I read in a few spot's about new ray's expelling small gravel using it normally as am argument AGAINST using substrate. In my experience animals rarely swallow anything by accident. I know in Many reptile species i keep this is no accident , aquatic reptiles like birds swallow rocks too help the digestive track break down food. Do you know if there has been any research on this with ray's ? I know in captivity this behavior is likely not needed since most remove the shell's/chop food for fish but i am curious about the natural behavior.

ON the eating subject, in the wild i'm sure ray's prey on snails and shellfish as a major part of there diet, Would they eat let's say snails and small clams shell and cray fish with shell and all ? I debated setting up a large cray tank, breeding them as snacks for some my my collection, wondering mostly if the ray's would enjoy it as well ??

BTW thanks for letting me pick your brain! I do allot of reading and research for a very long time before i get a new species, have been planning on rays well over a year. but it's always best too hear form people with first hand experience


----------



## Shell Dweller (Jul 11, 2010)

Hi Devon; Having no experience with rays at all I am of no help, Just wanted to say sorry for your loss


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks so far my first experience with rays did not go well, and it's gotten this morning i got up tested the tank everything was 0 across the board, the male ray was healthy and active, I went down 3 hours later and noticed the ray was sitting still in the back corner, I tested the water no problems still 0's and left. just went down again now and noticed a curl... tested the water everything is fine

all tests came up 0, no PH change, temps at 84 , so i blacked out the lights to help reduce stress, went and check on him a few times he was moving a bit and still had a slight curl, Just went down and he's in rough shape, spotted the problem looks like a bichir latched onto one of his claspers. 

I have been debating removing the Oscar he hasn't caused any problems but i just didn't want anything else too go wrong. I was not at all expecting a problem form the bichirs. 

I really hope this male pulls through but i fear the worst. 

I'm keeping it dark, adding a bit of salt. Keep temps high and more air . 

I'm setting up a spare 100g, i'll jam the bichirs and oscar into it short term if this ray pulls through make sure nobody else can bother him

Going too wait too pull out the other fish, i doubt me using net's and bichirs banging around will help at this point. If he brings the curl back down then i'll turn on dim lights and try too carefully remove the tankmates.

NOT a good first time ray experience.


----------



## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

actually, bichirs are known to bite anything. I hope your rays will pull through as well.

How big are they? They are usually very tough when they are bigger.


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

He is 12 - 13 inches, if he pulls through I'll separate him, if he doesn't then i don't think i'll try rays again until I have a second large tank for them too be ray's only. 

just too risky with tank mates,


----------



## Cheon (Jun 22, 2011)

Sorry to hear.... And about the sand i have sand I'n both my ray tanks i have been slowly removing it and sand I'n the impeller is a problem. When i service my fx5 i take alot outta of it. Hope ur first ray experience isn't bad ray keeping is very exciting.


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

well, the male didn't make it though the night. I've NEVER in all my time keeping fish tank had such an unsuccessful attempt at keeping any species. Don't get me wrong i've made mistakes, and lost fish but nothing like this. 

it's defiantly discouraged me from keeping ray's I wont make another attempt at it until i have a solo tank for them. And i have no plans too dedicate another giant tank too species only any time soon. 

I don't even know what else too say, I'm ashamed at how badly things went, that i couldn't save either fish, I royally screwed up with this pair I've kept all sorts of exotic fish/animals/reptiles, and this by far them most discouraging experience I've had .


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I wouldn't be discouraged at all. With wild caught fish, it's always a bit of a toss up. Since I started with my pleco obsession, I've managed to keep what some people think are extremely difficult to keep species, yet kill off easy ones. I know some people who can't keep bristlenose plecos to save their lives, yet have thousands of dollars of exotic discus. The fact that you failed once has no bearing on what kind of fishkeeper you are.


----------



## -DC- (Apr 21, 2010)

I only owned them maybe 2 weeks, I didn't really even have time to get to know them. 

The other fish are looking good though, and I'm sure the ornate bichirs are happier not being play things too the ray!

was just was a failed attempt that went worse then i ever imagined it could have, i'll try ray's again but will be in a ray only tank i think off in the future, will stick too other monsters for the mixed tanks.


----------

