# Farm raised versus wild caught: can they be mixed and other questions



## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I recently did a survey of my 4 tanks, and realized that of the 50+ fish I had bought from one seller, only the 3 headstanders that had come from another customer's tank were still alive. For example, I bought 3 wild caught german blue rams in November from this seller that died within a week, so a week later I bought 3 more from a different lfs, and they are alive and well today. I don't know if the second batch were wild or farm fish. I bought 42 pygmy cories from this seller, and over the next few months I lost all but 2, so I bought 6 more from a different lfs to make up the school, and they are all doing well. I just lost the green phantom that I bought from this seller in February, while the blue phantom I had since December (Stan's, so tank bred) is doing well. 

I have had a few losses of fish that I have bought from other lfs, but very few, and most of these occurred when I was just starting out. I have quite a few fish, and I take fish losses seriously, and do my best to determine the cause of each loss and rectify the problem so that I don't lose any more fish. Before I go to an lfs with the intention of buying fish, I either do a water change and/or at least check that my water parameters are good. I never let the nitrates go above 5 ppm, and I do weekly 25% water changes and monthly filter cleaning.

I contacted the seller about the discrepancy between the survival rate of fish I bought from him (6%) versus fish I bought at four different lfs (97%) (April's, Fish Addicts, Petland PoCo and Aquarium's West) and was given the following explanation:

"You add fish all the time from different places. There are some disease will affect some fish, but not others. For example, farm fish will have disease that will no affect farm fish but will kill wild fish. Simple reason is: the farm fish has developed immune which the wild fish doesn't.

Since you add fish all the time, have you once think I should ask have the newly come fish from the store I just bought from has dewormed the fish?

Most fish comes from farms normally are clean. However farm fish comes from farms to wholesalers here. Wholesalers here run a flow-through system for almost all their tanks (meaning every tank share the same water). Trust me, they will not be able to treat every fish, too much volume of water to treat (hundreds of tanks), and too expensive in medication. And they will have old fish mix with new fish, good fish mix with bad fish. Eventually, some fish will bound to catch something."

I don't know how many of the fish I bought from the above mentioned four lfs were wild caught or tank raised. These stores don't make a point of advertising where they get their fish from, other than obviously they are imported from somewhere. I looked on the internet and couldn't find anything on the problems of keeping wild versus farmed tropical fish. I didn't even realize until recently that this is a question I should be asking before purchasing.

So has anyone else had problems mixing wild caught with farm raised tropical fish in their tanks? 
Any tips on improving my success with wild caught, given that some species are only available wild caught? 
Are wild caught just that much more fragile and prone to fail in normal tank conditions (ie sand/gravel, driftwood, plants), especially when mixed with farm raised or tank bred species?


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

They are not difficult. Just when you add fish weekly from different sources, you have a higher chance to catch a problem.

Please do also tell people that your green phantom died after 2 months in your tank.

As for the rams, you bought them Dec/13/2014. And I just learnt from you they died according to you within a week. 

Were you not having problem also with the Geo you purchase from other LFS?


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Also stans phantoms were purchased from the same source and were sold to him wholesale for reselling. 
It's also not true that farm fish are all coming into local wholesalers and in central systems . Lots are transhipped and with the new permits all have to be bio secure and farms inspected by government. Also my friend has a wholesaler in Richmond and each tank is on its own sponge filter. Not other wholesalers...but his is. 
I tranship as I like to skip another water change and another move . 
But...keep adding there's always a chance that things can go wrong and most parasites and diseases first affect weaker fish or more fragile fish .
Pleccos I was told need a lot of oxygenated water and in nature thry come from fast moving water.
Oliver lucanasus did a ts
K here in Vancouver and he said for every 100 gold nuggets caught maybe 1/3 if your lucky make it to a customers tank. He said they are loaded in the Amazon and the water is such a strong current they have to use a line and a mountain climbing hook to tether themselves so they don't get swept away. He said most people don't realize how much oxygenated water they need .
I know Charles does a good job acclimating them and has brought in wild caught for many years. He's very experienced .


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## Plumberboy (Jun 2, 2014)

My Green and Blue Phantoms are still going strong, purchased from Canadian Aquatics around the same time. I am a sump guy, so water is well oxygenated. I also quarantine and deworm use a powdered form of Prazi.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

maximusfish said:


> I just lost the green phantom that I bought from this seller in February,


 Yes, as I said, bought in February.

I purchased the Geos from Petland and they did great for two months, growing, eating, healthy. I did a 25% water change and the next morning found three of the four geos dead, while all the other fish in the same tank were fine. I talked to Petland, and the manager did a check on a few of the geos from the same batch that went to customers she could contact. I took in one of the fish so she could check for worms.

I also called the GVRD to see if something had been recently added to the water. They said no, so I called the City of Port Moody and they said they had flushed the water mains in front of my house three days before I did the water change. I have talked to people about the sand in the tank as well. The previous owner of the tank had used this same sand with his geos with no problem. I posted it on the forum to see if anyone could provide an explanation, but no responses. I do everything possible to find an explanation, and therefore a way to prevent it happening again. No other fish in the tank died, so my only thought was there must have been something in the water following the water main flushing that affected the geos and not the others in the same tank.

Petland offers a 30 day guarantee on their fish, and it was within the time limit. Rather than purchase more geos and have it happen again, I opted for denisonni barbs. I won't get more geos until I am sure that the conditions in my tank are suitable for them.

I am aware that sometimes things happen that can't be explained, but do my best to learn from each loss and not repeat it. Which is why I have posted this about wild caught versus farm-raised or bred fish. Maybe that is something I need to watch out for, since I have had a vastly different success with fish from one seller over fish from four others.

I didn't mention that you were the seller I had bought these fish from, Charles, but I guess you kind of outed yourself with your reply post.

I genuinely want to know if there is a difficulty with wild caught fish, as that seemed to be one difference between your fish and the other stores. The other parameter that is different is that all four of the other lfs hold their fish in tanks with gravel and plants, while you hold yours in bare-bottom tanks with big sponge filters going. But you said that would make no difference to the conditioning of the fish. So I go back to the wild versus tank raised issue. If that is the problem, then obviously I won't purchase wild caught fish and will ask about it before buying.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

I have a large bnp, a king tiger, a gold spot, a blue phantom, and a mega clown in the same tank. All are doing well. I run a large filter on one tank, and on the tank that they were originally kept I run two filters, with flow across the top and the middle. I feed these guys every second day after lights out, mostly cat bites, algae wafers, zucchini, and occasionally frozen blood worms. No losses so far. The blue phantom was about an inch long when I got him, now about three inches. Since he was so small I assumed Stan had bred him, but perhaps not. Anyway he is well.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

April, were your pygmy cories wild or farmed? They are all doing well. I still have all the adophoi and jullies I bought from you. I have had no trouble with any of the fish I have bought from you, they all adjusted really well and are thriving.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Bare bottom and a sponge is the best way to keep things clean and no parasites etc. stores have to have substrate and decorations as it'd pleasing to the basic hobbyists eyes and it also gives ideas and sells decorations, etc. all wholesalers, breeders, importers, all have bare bottom tanks and sponge filters. Wcs and bio filtration is all that is needed and even parameters. Low bio load. 
My last shop I also ran sponge filters. Also with bb you can see any worms etc that could be discharged so you can keep an eye on the fish for any problems . 
If I get a new batch of say guppies..and I add the. To the existing tank...there's a good chance they will get fungus. Same as some tetras. Bring in a new batch of neons..new tank. 
When I did discus all tanks got completely sterilized sponge and all and never mixed. Not note, not hands etc. 
a quarantine tank is the way to go for getting new fish. Keep a sponge filter handy . Especially if getting more costly fish.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Mine are all farm bred .


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't mind putting myself out. Just want to get the story straight. Were the 160 recently setup? Wasn't that L201 gold spot from me also purchased on Dec/13/2014 along with the rams? Just saying you can blame me on losing of my fish in your tanks for period of time, but when other fish died, oh well, I should look to see if it is something I can do. Don't take it personal, but if you have fish that died after a period of time in your tank, most likely, it is your environment that cause it. 

I went back and check your 160g which is where you had your dead phantom... You are only using a 2262. Yes, it is a big filter, but you are not running any powerhead to move water around. It is rated 900 GPH. I take it it is for the GPH for the motor only. With the head pressure and media, I gave it best at 75% of that. If you are running a 6' tank and only use that as your main source of water moment, you are not going get enough surface moment for O2. During day time, you might have your plants to help. But at night, that will be your least O2 time in your tank which also is quite active for most of your catfish.

Your tank was filled on Mar/04/2015. I assumed you did not get anything to cycle your water for a whole month. On April/04/2015, you added 2 large SAE, 6 geos, 3 more large SAE, and then the big phantom. And when you using silicone to go all the rock works, and I believe Alex was the one who helped you, did he mention that it is always a good idea to rinse the tank with vinegar first before filling the water... Anyway, according to you also, the green phantom was gallumping around your 110g trashing the place, knocking over stuffs on Apr/05/2015... I assume it is quite healthy.

And you supposed to add the 3 more chalceus next week, but you did not wait. You went and bought them on Apr/05/2015 which you just added all those new fish in your new 160 a day ago. 
On May/07/2015, you asked me if the sand you gotten from another BCAer cause all your geo. died.
And on May/25/2015, you told me the Green phantom died.

I am wonder if the lack of current might cause that. I am also wonder if there is something in your tank environment that cause the newly added fish to die even after they have settled in your older tank.

Another thing I forgot to mention, if you get that many SAE, they can get aggressive on both getting the food, and sometimes, they might attack other fish. I have seen on occasion suck on other fish body at night. Maybe that is the reason.

Anyway, I am also trying to inform you that besides all the possible reason why your fish die, the fact that you are adding fish all the time, and from different source, and the compatibility of tankmates, and food, and other factors combine might cause the death of some of your fish... 

Like I said in the pm, I am trying to help you as you are new in the fish keeping. I can give you my honest opinion, you can choose to listen or ignore.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Maybe. It is strange that the chalceus, and all the other fish and plecos and catfish, are doing well. I ran extra filters on my 110 and moved the bio over to the new filter when I started the tank. I kept tabs on the water parameters. The tank sat empty for a couple of months after the siliconing and I did a full rinse before adding the final water. My SAE are not aggressive, I have not seen them go after any other fish, and they school with the denisonnis. Since I started the tank I have only lost the geos, all at one time so I am still trying to sort that out, and the green phantom.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Moving a bio from a filter from your other tank doesn't mean instant cycle especially you are running two filters and decor in your other tank. Best you get is 1/4-1/3 bacteria to your new tank. And if you don't fish right away, that filter bacteria will slowly die as there is nothing it is feeding on.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

I've only owned 3 WC species but I've lost all three of them. One died by aggression and the other 2 died to bloat. I think they may be less resistant to certain diseases and bacteria over farmed fish but there are a lot of people who successfully keep WC species. I think I lost the 2 to bloat because I overfed which was my mistake. I have also had a hard time to keep any plecos until i started to aerate my tank more. Sorry for all your fish losses.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

OK so how does that explain that I have around 6% survival with your fish, as opposed to 97% survival with fish from other stores. I have 4 tanks running, so I am talking about all the fish in all the tanks. The pygmy cories were in my 20 gallon. The rams were in my 110 gallon. If it is just my fish keeping, why can I successfully keep fish from other stores but not yours? 

Anyway, you are derailing this thread. This issue I was wanting to discuss is whether people have found a difference with wild caught versus farm bred or raised fish. Are they more frail, harder to keep, problems mixing them with farmed fish? The purpose is to see if I should be questioning a store as to whether the fish are wild caught.

April confirms that the pygmy cories that I bought from her, and survived and are still doing well in the 20 gallon, were farm raised. While only 2 of the 42 wild caught I bought from you survived.

I just want to know if anyone else has had the same problem with wild caught fish.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

How is it i am directing away? I and steve also suggest that sometimes mixing farm and wild fish needs more of degree of caring. Just overstocking your tank or yoyr newly build tank alone can trigger that; just one of the reason.

I think your intention of this post is to blame and not to learn. There are people who made suggestions and yet you only focus my fish. 

You must bought also over 100 fish from the place you bought your geo that you have 97%

And as far as pleco, you still have l201 and l340 from me... They havent died yet. But perhaps you havent moved them to your 160g yet.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

The only wc I've had were discus and I've had some pleccos. Snowballs, gold nugget, etc. I had success in the sense they lasted for a time until I had overstocking , not enough oxygen or filtration or whatever. My wild discus did grest as big fish, and constsnt daily wcs.but I didn't mix with domestics.
I can tell you a story though that has nothing to do with anyone on this forum. 
I helped at. Warehouse and there was a helper with many years of knowledge on fish by rote. I've.neons like 6 ph, Africans like hard water, etc etc. so the helper would do all this mixing to get ready for the incoming fish. Using acid to drop the ph for the neons, etc etc. guess what ? Major losses. Why? Bad batch? No! The neons were bred and raised at ph 7 in a farm. Going down in ph is deadly to fish.you can go up, and up in temperature but not down. Ph shock is deadly .
Also low ph and a large amount of new fish added has an influx in bioloads and low ph can crash and keep on crashing with our no hardness.
Now..everyone gets ph neutral and some buffering with minerals.minimal losses, no ick etc as no stress.
This most likely has nothing to do with your losses but may help with the difference from farm raised or wild caught. 
The Amazon is the biggest , well oxygenated and constant wc river in the world.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

So April are you saying that with our water being around pH 6.8 to 7, the farm fish are fine because they are raised in a stable, neutral pH 7 environment?


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

I forgot to add, with your rockworks in your tank without a powerhead moving water, you will have lots of dead spot in the tank. My suggestion to improve is to get a couple circulation powerhead to go with the flow of what your filter outflow is pointing.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

While it may seem strange to hear from me(for those of you that have been on the forum for awhile and know how I love to mix fish) but I have found that wild fish, when purchased healthy from a supplier's tank are tough as nails. In my experience, with mostly plecos and cichlids, they will eat almost anything, they see their owners as people who provide food so approach the tank when the owner walks by. I have found almost the opposite from farm raised fish. IMO they are so inbred that they seem susceptible to a lot of diseases and bloat. 

One thing that I have definitely found, especially with wild discus, wild cories and wild plecos and hypans is that they are very susceptible to disease from farm bred fish. I can have a thriving tank with breeding fish but the introduction of what appears to be a healthy farm bred fish can introduce a disease that wipes out almost all of the wilds. I have lost full grown altum angels, beautiful wild discus and beautiful zebra plecos by introducing farm bred cories and farm bred discus into the same tank. I know the farmed fish were the problem because they were never affected.

One other warning I would make is that I avoid farmed fish from Singapore under any circumstances. I ask where the farmed fish come from and if they are from Singapore I avoid like the plague. In my experience, fish from Singapore (1) almost all the time create the problem I described in the paragraph above and (2) almost always also suffer from some kind of wasting disease

Just my experience


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

On another note, I have bought all kinds of expensive, strange and exotic fish from Charles over the years. Over this time, he has never ever sold me a fish that was sick or created disease in my tanks. In fact, quite the opposite has happened where he has dissuaded me from purchasing a fish from him and even once or twice refused to sell a fish to me because he wasn't sure it was healthy. 

When I do buy a fish from him(which is often), I find that he always follows up and is concerned about how my new fish are doing.

In my opinion, there is no way that Charles has sold wild fish that are fairly common that are so unhealthy that they have a short life span. The issue in all likelihood has to be the acclimatization process or tank conditions


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## jhj0112 (Jul 30, 2013)

josephl said:


> One thing that I have definitely found, especially with wild discus, wild cories and wild plecos and hypans is that they are very susceptible to disease from farm bred fish. I can have a thriving tank with breeding fish but the introduction of what appears to be a healthy farm bred fish can introduce a disease that wipes out almost all of the wilds. I have lost full grown altum angels, beautiful wild discus and beautiful zebra plecos by introducing farm bred cories and farm bred discus into the same tank. I know the farmed fish were the problem because they were never affected.


+1! this is my experience as well.


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## outsider (Jan 13, 2015)

Sometimes you have to make sure yourself didn't make any mistake. 

I believe all the Otocinclus are wild caught. 5 Otocinclus from petsmart and 3 Otocinclus from aquarium west died in my tank in less a hour. I wasn't sure what is the problem as my pH, ammonia, nitrite were perfect than I blame the fish. Which turn out it is my own fault because I was dosing seachem flourish excel and my dosage is too much for newly introduced fish. Once I stop use seachem flourish excel I don't have problem with Otocinclus.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Yes, fish dying within an hour of being in the tank is clearly a problem with your acclimation techniques. 

Any mistakes I may or may not have made should have affected all my fish equally. It didn't. I have had an extremely disproportionate loss of wild fish over farm fish.

I started this thread to discuss whether people have had a problem with keeping wild caught over tank bred/raised fish. I have bought both wild and farm fish, kept them together in my tanks under the same conditions, and have found that the wild caught fish are more fragile and don't thrive. The farm fish I bought do really well and I have had very few losses of those. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this in their tanks.


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## josephl (Apr 21, 2010)

maximusfish said:


> Yes, fish dying within an hour of being in the tank is clearly a problem with your acclimation techniques.
> 
> Any mistakes I may or may not have made should have affected all my fish equally. It didn't. I have had an extremely disproportionate loss of wild fish over farm fish.
> 
> I started this thread to discuss whether people have had a problem with keeping wild caught over tank bred/raised fish. I have bought both wild and farm fish, kept them together in my tanks under the same conditions, and have found that the wild caught fish are more fragile and don't thrive. The farm fish I bought do really well and I have had very few losses of those. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this in their tanks.


I think that wild caught fish are tougher except and it's a big except that they require really good water quality which makes sense as most of our wild fish would come from areas with fast moving water that flushes very regularly. Wilds also don't respond to medications very well but they don't get sick all that often either unless tank conditions are poor or pathogens are introduced from farm raised fish. I'm guessing wild caught fish are tougher if tank conditions are not pristine.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

If you read my initial post, you would see that I do weekly water changes, never let my nitrates get above 5 ppm, feed only every second day, test my water parameters regularly, and do a water change the day before introducing new fish. Hardly poor tank conditions or poor water quality.


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## Passthesalt (Dec 11, 2011)

You're a rookie. You are argumentative. You don't listen or don't want to listen to experience.
Give it a rest. Pretty soon there will be no lfs left unscathed by you for you to slam.


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## Fishy_Addiction (May 3, 2013)

I fail to see how he is arguing. He isn't, he is putting all his facts out so that you guys have a better picture. Nothing wrong with him giving all of what he has done.

However, as the others have said, you should probably add something to move the water surface for the O2. I'm not an expert on the cichlids though, but it would be worth a try. As well as spanning out when you put the fish in.

Just want to say, I have been on the same boat as you from what I am noticing from a couple of posts people have put down regarding arguing. Unsure about you, but for me, I had to get every fact out and straight because of my anxiety. I wanted to leave no stone unturned to ensure people knew my exact care and how I was doing it. I also asked why what I was doing wouldnt work so I knew (not to argue). People took it the wrong way though. I kept getting frustrated and nearly lost my cool with people because of how they thought I wasn't listening to them. In reality, I was listening, and learning from them. It frustrated the hell out of me and still does. (It was not on this forum)

Just a note it was not from this website. I needed to post this, because I get the feeling this is going to turn into that situation and get blown out of proportion.

He is just trying to make sure everyone understands what he has said so he can give the most optimal care.

And of course OP correct me if I am wrong. I know what it is like being a rookie in something and being misunderstood because you have that name attached to you.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Take a look at the threads, thread # 2-4, 8, 10, 12-13, 16, 18-20, 22, and 24 all contains good information about her setup and how she sets it up. It is more than enough reason to take a second look and reflect on what can be done differently.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I've been following this thread for a bit but didn't want to comment at first because I was afraid of what might happen. I am now compelled to comment to try and bring this thread back to what the OP wanted, which is to understand if there is a difference between farm fish and wild caught.

IMO, most farm fish are used to crowded conditions and in general, worse water quality. BUT, they are also being farmed in places which have possibly very different water than the natural waters where their ancestors are from, depending on the fish.

In the original post, I don't see any actual parameters posted, such as temperatures, pH, KH, GH, etc. How much water is changed and how often. How is the water treated (Prime, nothing, aged)? How is it buffered? Are you just putting in straight tap water which is pretty much GH = 0 or 1? Is it going in from buckets? Hose? What type of hose? Which fish were in which tanks and mixed with what other fish? Is there coral in your filter? How often is the filter cleaned and how do you clean it?

There are just too many variable to analyze unless you were adding one type of fish from one source at a time and allowing them to establish in the tank before adding others. In my experience (and I've been doing this for over 30+ years), every time I am broken down by temptation and add too many fish too often I pay for it with a disaster in my tank. I now add fish a few at a time unless it's tetras and I wait...and wait... and wait some more until the fish are doing well before I add fish from another source.

Not sure if this helps, but hopefully it gives you a better perspective on why people are asking so many questions. I don't think they are being argumentative on purpose. It's just that the environment you describe has a lot of variables, some of which are changing (different tanks, different fish, different times, from different sources).

If you used a quarantine to bring fish into, and then watched them for a couple of weeks then you can narrow down whether they are dying because the fish are weak. If you did this and all the wc died and all the farmed fish lived, I would say your case is irrefutable.


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## Fishy_Addiction (May 3, 2013)

I'm no longer responding to the thread as I put my two cents in. I'm on no ones side so it is known. I'm a neutral charge. 

But that is a great post Wheels. It has actually helped me decide what my next purchase will be instead of more tetras... Well at least I won't be getting anymore tetras for now. Lol.


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## tony1928 (Apr 22, 2010)

My own opinion is that mixing fish that are raised in different environments, whether wild or domestic, does have it's risks. Obviously mixing fish is a necessity unless you have the money and space to do many species only tanks. Not likely for most of us. "All" fish, the fact that they are raised in different environments mean that they can carry different pathogens that can be deadly to the existing tank inhabitants, or conversely, the existing tank inhabitants can carry pathogens that are deadly to the newly introduced fish. I've had this happen to me on various occasions. Next to impossible to pin down what a specific cause would be. I've had many instances where I would introduce a new group of fish into an existing tank, they do great but all of a sudden, the existing tank mates start to drop like flies. I end up with nothing left but the new inhabitants. I've also had the opposite happen. New fish seemingly healthy die after a couple of weeks in my tank. No other fish die. As the others have said, all you can do is to keep your water parameters up to where you think they should be. There are a few things you can test for, and a million other things that you can't test for. Too many variables as others have said. 

I think the important thing is for us to do our homework so that we are equipped to give the fish the best environment possible. Take your time, observe your fish, and introduce slowly. QT is nice to ensure the fish are happy and eating before introducing but if they do hold pathogens that are deadly to your existing tank, not much QT can do about that. That's a risk that we have no choice but to take. 

I wish you the best of luck to you and your son in your fish keeping hobby as I've enjoyed this hobby immensely for over 20 years. Losing fish is part of this hobby. If you haven't lost thousands of dollars of fish, it just means you haven't been in the hobby long enough  That doesn't mean losing fish doesn't hurt. You've done a great job on your tanks, way nicer than my tanks were back in the day. Enjoy the hobby and don't lose faith, its an awesome hobby.


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## deepRED (May 22, 2010)

maximusfish said:


> If you read my initial post, you would see that I do weekly water changes, never let my nitrates get above 5 ppm, feed only every second day, test my water parameters regularly, and do a water change the day before introducing new fish. Hardly poor tank conditions or poor water quality.


Reading through this thread and I find it quite interesting. If we cut through the veiled passive aggressiveness we can revisit the "original purpose" of the thread. So, your initial question: are wilds less hardy than farmed fish? In my experience, once they have stabilized from the travel and the transition from their native water conditions they are tough as nails. In fact, as others have stated, a lot of farmed fish tend to suffer from problems due to lack of genetic diversity and overcrowding.

Since every tank is different, it is almost impossible to pin point what the real issue is with your tanks and lack of success with wild caught fish. Doing water changes weekly at 25% is a good practice, but again, it is not the solution to every problem. Some of my tanks I do 90% daily, and some I change once every two months. It all depends on stocking levels, filtration, water flow, nutrient uptake etc... Also, some fish, especially small fish, really need to be fed daily to thrive. You can skip a day or two here and there, but in the long term daily feedings are better than intermittent gorging.

With what you have shared with us though, I agree with the people who have already mentioned the fact that circulation and flow might be your issue. I recently changed my 300 gallon over to an auto-drip system, tuned at about 50 gallons a day. That means over the course of a 6 days it will have diluted the tank 100%. The water is the tank is pristine. Test outs "perfectly" in terms of Nitrogen cycle.
Over the course of the first week, a few things happened. I began to lose a few fish. 
After the first loss, I began to go over the system with a fine tooth comb to see what the trigger could be. Maybe it was too big of a change in water parameters. I tested and found that actually there wasn't a huge change. I feed very heavily in my tanks, but I also did frequent large water changes, so the TDS in the tank has always been low.

Day two, and I lost a couple more of these fish. The one thing I realized: they were all the same type. These fish are wild caught, yes, but they are from very fast moving streams and require a highly oxygenated tank. I've had these fish for over a year without issue.

After looking at the system again, I realized that by taking my large overhead filter offline, I was removing around 1200gph of water flow. I didn't think that this would be an issue as I have other powerheads in the tank, but this obviously reduced the surface agitation enough to cause problems. I quickly took an old AC110 and hooked it up just to get the water moving more as well as added another powerhead. 
I haven't lost another fish since.

Moral of the story, don't underestimate water flow.

Those of us who have done saltwater for years will tell you that flow is of utmost importance, but for some reason it is not pushed as much in freshwater aquaria. I've been keeping fish for over 20 years and it was a hard reminder that no matter what your experience is, you can't rest in what you know, because you don't know everything. Letting one thing slip in a closed system like an aquarium can spell disaster very quickly.

Patience is key. When adding new fish there is always the temptation to add more than you should. Increasing the bio-load by a large percentage not only causes issues for your bio-filter, but even your oxygen levels can be negatively affected. Fish that require highly oxygenated water will be the first to suffer. I have learned this the hard way. 
Learn from the mistakes of others.

In terms of suppliers, there is only one shop that I will not buy fish from anymore and it was due to deceit. I purchased some fish from them a few years ago and added them to my tank. In all of years of fishkeeping, I have never seen disease spread so quickly and aggressively. Soon, it had wiped out half my tank and I had to basically nuke everything and start again. I went back to the shop and asked if they had issues with the batch. I looked at the tank that they were in, and saw that they were no longer there. They straight up lied to me and said, "no, someone came and bought them all". Yeah right. These were expensive fish, and the tank had over 50 of them when I left a week earlier. I asked another staff member who wasn't part of the first conversation and he told me that they had lost them, one by one. 
Disease happens. It was my fault for not quarantining the fish first. But don't lie to me and expect me to be foolish enough to believe it. 
This is the only place I won't buy another fish from.

As for Canadian Aquatics, I have purchased literally hundreds of fish from them over the years, and have had no issues with how their tanks are kept or the quality of their fish, both farmed and wild caught. Some of my oldest fish are actually from Charles. Let's not mix up the wild vs domestic issue with the integrity of a business.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Thank you very much to Tony1928, Fishy_Addiction, 2wheelsx2, and Steve for your thoughtful and considered opinions. This is indeed what I was looking for when I started this thread; insight and understanding into the difference between wild caught over farm raised fish, brought about by my curiosity of my own experience of success with the farm over the wild caught.

It was never my intention to slam an lfs, which is why I did not post the name of the company where I bought my fish that all died. I very much support independent lfs, and make a point of posting positive reviews of an lfs when I find the owner to be knowledgeable, encouraging and excited about the hobby, and the fish stock kept in healthy and humane conditions, such as I find at April's, Aquarium's West, IPU Burnaby, and the new Fish Addicts in Langley.

I have had two bad experiences of an lfs: one where the staff dropped f bombs and made racist remarks in front of my child, then tried to encourage my child to purchase a fish totally unsuited to a community tank, and one where the fish were kept in deplorable conditions in algae coated tanks with dead fish covered in mold floating on the top. My son was nearly in tears when we left that lfs. In both instances I made a complaint to the manager and then chose not to return or to purchase fish from there.

None of which has anything to do with the reason I started this thread.

My tank parameters are as follows: GH I try to keep around 5, I test GH before I do a wc and then a couple of hours after a wc, and add equilibrium if needed to raise the GH. KH I like to see around 3, and I have oyster shells in my tanks as well as crushed oyster & coral in my filters. I have found the KH to be stable. I routinely test for pH and have found it to be around 6.8 to 7. I do a 25% water change every Sunday, and use a small hose to vacuum the gravel/sand. I have a python hose attached to my hot/cold pipes under my sink, my cold runs through a Rainwater dechlorinator. I add Prime or other dechlorinator at the recommended dosage just before I put fresh water in my tank. I hold the hose against the glass just above the water line. 

I clean my filters once a month by rinsing the sponge and bio media in tank water. On the tank where I run two filters I clean each one on alternate months. On my 20g I have an eheim easy 35, on the 110 I have an eheim 600 and an eheim pro 3, with the spray bars located one at the surface of the water and one mid-way down the tank. On my 160g I have an eheim 2262. I keep the water temperature at 26 degrees which is within the comfortable range for all the fish. 

I feed every second day, a variety of foods including Xtreme Community PeeWee pellets, Xtreme Cat Scrapers, Hikari sinking wafers, algae wafers, dried tubiflux worms, frozen brine shrimp, frozen blood worms, and zucchini. No I don't feed these all at one time. I also put in the cat scrapers, sinking wafers, zucchini, and frozen shrimp and blood worms every second night after lights out. No I don't feed these all at one time or every time. I like to provide a variety of food. 

My tanks are heavily planted with low light plants, and I have driftwood and rock structures to provide territory markers and caves/shelters. I have water lettuce as a floating plant on all my tanks and found the fish really appreciated the lower light conditions that these provide. Once a week I thin this stuff out and remove any decaying or discoloured plants. I don't use any fertilizer or excel as I found that the plants were flourishing without it. The substrates are basic aquarium gravel, sand, and eco complete. 

I will look at adding a small powerhead to each of my tanks. You are right, the need for flow is not emphasized in the hobby, especially for plecos.


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## stratos (Apr 21, 2010)

I import both wild caught and captive bred fish - mostly larger fish. I find they are equally likely to get diseased. Wild caught fish can sometimes carry parasites. In these cases I either set up a quarantine tank or else dose the whole tank with AQUARIUM SOLUTIONS & POND SOLUTIONS PraziPro Health Aid - The World's First Ready-To-Use, Liquid Concentrate Praziquantel Treatment!

Provided either WC or CB fish are stable when purchased (been held for some time by the local importer without deaths) and are eating well, there should be no problem. If they are high end fish you should see the fish eat before buying them.

I was at the same talk April mentioned (in an earlier post) put on by Oliver Lucanus. I also remember him stressing that many plecos need highly oxygenated water.


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## C-kidder (Aug 2, 2014)

Just lost the last wild pleco I owned.... Maybe it was because I added farmed fish to the tank, Who knows... Simply a shame to see beautiful fish die. 

What I do know that I now have to be more careful when buying fish since not all suppliers are equal. I have had several die from one supplier but non from another  I never once was worried about the whole wild farm but it does create a good discussion.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Sorry to hear about you losing another wild pleco C-kidder. It's frustrating when a person has a tank full of thriving healthy fish to see certain fish fade and die for no apparent reason. If it was your fishkeeping that is the problem, you would think that you would lose more fish across the board, or at least more randomly.

I didn't get any clear answers about wild versus farm from this thread, so I am just going to opt for not buying wild caught fish.


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## charles (Apr 21, 2010)

Perhaps it is just not the answers you want to hear. I have seen many people giving suggestion, ex; more O2 exchange, more water moment, less dead spot in the tank, a secondary filtration (your current filter best is 3.2 turn over each hour, most would suggest a 5x turn over and with some even believe in 10x turn over), QT, add stock slowly in a new tank, and adding multiple fish from different source without QT in a short amount of time, You can try a few or all the suggestion and see it will improve. I think in general, just by doing those, regardless you keep wild or farm, it will greatly improve your tank environment for the fish that you choose to keep.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

All those things, if they were the problem, should have affected fish from all sources equally. That has not been my experience. I have four tanks running. Farm fish from April's, Aquarium's West, IPU Burnaby, and Petland are doing well with few losses over the past 8 months. Plecos from Stan and Petland are thriving in the same tanks as the ones I lost. From what I hear, I am not the only one who has experienced this phenomena.

I am staying away from wild caught fish.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Apr 21, 2010)

I believe April already stated that your Blue Phantom from Stan is wild caught. To the best of my knowledge no one has bred Blue Phantoms in Canada or even in North America in all likelihood. So you do have wild caught fish doing well in your tanks.


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## April (Apr 21, 2010)

Yep..stans came from the same source . A lot of the stores order from same suppliers and get shipments the same days.


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## maximusfish (Sep 2, 2014)

Here he is, photo by Max. These are stunning fish. .


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2013)

maximusfish said:


> All those things, if they were the problem, should have affected fish from all sources equally. That has not been my experience. I have four tanks running. Farm fish from April's, Aquarium's West, IPU Burnaby, and Petland are doing well with few losses over the past 8 months. Plecos from Stan and Petland are thriving in the same tanks as the ones I lost. From what I hear, I am not the only one who has experienced this phenomena.
> 
> I am staying away from wild caught fish.


o2 exchange and water movement wouldn't actually affect the fish from all sources equally. Lots of wild species live in highly oxygenated environments in an around waterfalls and fast rivers which get them accustomed to living in these environments. When they are taken out of these environments, it's harder for them to thrive. Farmed fish (same species) are brought up in tanks that can be less oxygenated and the fry that survive are more resistant to lower levels of o2 or water movement. We don't know how many fry die off in fish farms but I am sure the initial numbers from WC breeding pairs and what not is quite high and as the generations continue the rate of mortality drops. I think there has been a lot of good information in this thread which is helpful to a lot of people. From what I've read, there could be a variety of problems:

1. Oxygen levels are too low for wild caught fish or water movement isn't strong enough
2. Your farmed fish have built a resistance to certain diseases that are affecting your wild caught fish (therefore your farmed fish would survive but not WC)
3. pH levels in your tank are perfect for farmed fish but may just be too far off from the actual wild fishes usual pH which causes gills to burn and the fish to die (I've lost a lot of discus because of this)

These may or may not be the reasons but its possible. I don't think either farmed or wild fish are "superior" but it's just the way the individual houses the types of fish that may benefit others. There are lots of members on this forum who have great luck with wild fish and others who do better with farmed. I wish you the best in your fish keeping endeavors!


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